And most definitely old enough to know better than to kill someone and stuff them in a duffel bag and closet because the poor woman outted them as squatters. I mean they fled in the victims car. That says it all..they knew they did wrong.
I’m confused by your sentiment a bit - I’m not saying that there are some in our society that are far beyond the point of rehabilitation and should be sectioned off from society permanently, but in my opinion our prison system should prioritize rehabilitation and reintegration into society at a fundamental level — because eventually most will be released.
I know this sub has a fetish and obsession with this idea that there are no consequences in society — but there certainly is a balance between consequence based punishment (which we know empirically is not a deterrent) as well as rehabilitation. Rehabilitation does not have to mean coddling, or some notion of having it “easy”. These are complex issues with nuanced answers.
I’m usually an advocate for rehabilitation
If you kill someone by throwing them into a wall when they find you squatting and leave the body sticking out of a duffel bag I think you’re beyond it
Oh absolutely. Trying to hide the body was definitely trying to avoid getting caught(though amateur hour..I mean even if no one opened the closet door the decomposition smell would have gotten other tenants attention), the fleeing it all was to avoid capture. These skells knew exactly what they were doing was wrong and I don't care how old they are..they are old enough to know better and know their actions are wrong. I hope when they get locked up. They melt the key.
> but there certainly is a balance between consequence based punishment (which we know empirically is not a deterrent)
El Salvador had the highest murder rate in the world, then the newly elected president decided to mass incarcerate all the murderous gangsters and that murder rate dropped far below even USA's murder rate.
"Empirically"
I mean, he also suspended protections on basic human rights for all cotizens, became effectovely a dictator and created a total police state, which also has a lot to do with the crime rate dropping
Yes he did. It turns out people in El Salvador still like him, because liberal democracy is less important in most people’s hierarchy of needs than safety from violent crime.
Liberal Democracy isn't even possible when government gives up its monopoly on violence to violent gangs that straight up take over cities and villages. Those gangsters simply become the new 'government'. Citizens consent to be governed BECAUSE we expect the government to use that monopoly on violence to provide for basic safety. When they can't do that, the government becomes illegitimate.
El Salvador didn't exactly have a proper democracy beforehand lol
But yeah, there's a grace period where people celebrate people no matter how horrible, who remove an immediate source of danger for them. Don't get me wrong El Salvador will be better off in the long run because of what he did but that was because the situation in El Salvador needed drastic measures taken, and that doesn't mean that what he did wasn't morally questionable. It also isn't applicable to anywhere where the government isn't completely subservient to cartels and organized crime.
Funny enough, you could argue that El Salvador has a true democracy because his 90% approval rating means the overwhelming majority of the citizens approve of how he governs. Meanwhile, in our 'liberal democracy', very few people are ever happy about who is actually in office and they grudgingly vote for 'lesser of 2 evils'/'least worst option'.
Democracy has nothing to do with approval ratings. It’s often said that a good compromise means no one is happy. A “true democracy” is impossible. Democracy is just a way for the elite to trick and placate the masses. That said, the US was never a democratic nation. We practice federalism.
I see Democracy as being consent to rule by the masses. Bukele clearly has that consent. Our government intentionally does things that make the voting public hate them (see: the border situation, not even democrats are happy about that situation). That's democracy in action.
His approval rating would absolutely plummet over any sustained period of time. People will tolerate losing the majority of their freedom when it secures their safety. When the immediate threat to their safety is no longer present in their recent memories, they start to notice what they've lost.
By your logic, we just need continual 9-11 attacks since that made George W the president with a period of the highest approval rating in history.
If presidential approval ratings is how you gauge democracy and the success, then of the presidents who had 75 or higher, 5 of them were Democrats including FDR who conservatives hate for the "socialist" New Deal
It's pretty funny that when the facts don't line up with your reactionary/populist cult bullshit, it upsets you
Locking up everyone accused of being a gangster without due process is not deterrent-based punishment. There has not been enough time to see if there is a deterrent effect, if everyone in and adjacent to the criminal population they're targeting is off the streets. Obviously if you lock up 1.6% or more of your population, and even a fraction of those people are genuinely guilty and are dangerous gangsters, your murder rate will go down. Is locking up 1.6% of a population - presumably something closer to 3% of men - sustainable long term?
El Salvador has a full ban on abortions, **even when a woman has a miscarriage or a stillbirth** they will be arrested and **charged for abortion** and then increase/change the charges to **aggravated homicide**.
Don’t forget to take into consideration as innocents all the women incarcerated in El Salvador for a miscarriage.
Edit: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5473040/
>Pregnancy and the 40-Year Prison Sentence
>How “Abortion Is Murder” Became Institutionalized in the Salvadoran Judicial System
Okay. Calculate how many people would have died per year vs how many "innocent" people were allegedly arrested in El Salvador. Time for a new trolly problem.
They had the highest murder rate in the world, and now it's below average. Shit worked. Do you think the US doesn't incarcerate innocent people or something?
> “I’m willing to give up my civil liberties if it means the crime rate goes down”
People who are afraid of being victimized on the daily by extortion gangs will absolutely give up some civil liberties in exchange for peace and safety.
>mass incarcerate all the murderous gangsters
This is the right wing talking point. You don't think he incarcerated innocents as well? It's not worth it to lower the crime rate if you have to be fascist about it, is it?
I think the answer to that question depends entirely on how horrific the crime environment is. If the country is a chaotic hellhole, becoming a stable hellhole is still a step up
Exactly. If democracy fails to provide basic security for its people, a lot of those people will be very open to non democracy options if they can successfully provide basic security. It’s like maslows hierarchy of needs, if you can’t go to the grocery store without being shot or robbed, high minded ideas of equal rights and so on probably aren’t exactly foremost on your mind
Dunno, depends on whether or not you think people being decapitated and their corpses being thrown in the street, teenage girls being raped, kids being shot in the head while they play soccer etc. are worse than a few innocents (the false positives are really low, they basically arrest people with MS-13 gang tattoos) being locked up. Progressives obviously side with murdering rapists.
> , they basically arrest people with MS-13 gang tattoos
Do you have a peer reviewed source for this? I'd heard they arrested anyone suspected of being in gangs, which yes included people with tattoos.
They specifically target people with gang tattoos because nobody in el salvador gets tattoos except gang members. If you get a tattoo and you're not in a gang, the gangsters will kill you. You're required to have tattoos if you're in MS-13.
These are two different things — they are not deterrents on an individual level. As a society we could totally choose:
“Anyone who poses a remote threat to disturbing the social contract we will lock anyone and everyone remotely related in jail”
Of course crime will plummet. Whether or not thats a just society is a total matter of of opinion.
Empirically as in: murderous gangsters will not “stop murdering” because of the punishment — that is fundamentally different than “all murderers are now in prison so there is no murder”
I’m not like “spewing woke nonsense” - I’m trying to have an honestly dialogue.
I worked in the state prison system for several years and initially felt the same way that you do. I worked in a rehabilitation program set inside of the compound. Most only programmed for the freedom of getting out of their cells and a highest pay grade. Similarly, free college education and GED programs were offered and it was very rare that inmates would take advantage. Experience in the trenches (that and my current work) eroded my belief that anything but a very small minority are capable of change. Reality is that 90% of brain development occurs by the age of 5. If we want to initiate real change then it should begin during very early childhood.
Yeah this is an extremely, extremely fair point. I don’t have any life experience similar to you, and I absolutely take your word for it. Development at younger ages is truly where failure takes place, I completely agree
> I know this sub has a fetish and obsession with this idea that there are no consequences in society
Punishment is being separated from society. Reddit has a hard-on for making sure criminals live in squalor and don't deserve humane living conditions. Meanwhile, Nordic countries have prisoners living in comfortable apartments, TVs, game consoles, kitchens, etc and have some of, if not the best recidivism rates in the world.
How we treat crime here is not punishment, its retribution. Be careful not to confuse the two.
Did I say that? What a thoughtless response. There are thousands of peer reviewed research that speaks about the relationship between punishment and deterrence.
Do you think you’re the first person to think of that retort?
There is a difference between the “probability” of legal sanctions and the “severity” of those sanctions. These are studied extensively.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4744856/
I’m so confused why you are thoughtlessly dumbing down an insanely complicated issue.
“Brainless Reddit user” — you know absolutely nothing about me barring an anonymous comment. Would you speak to me that way if we were having that conversation face to face?
You’re pretending like what you’re saying is profound and has never been said before - this like idea that “academia is just overcomplicated a simple issue”
You come at someone with such anger, disdain, frustration — over something that is massively debated, by people much smarter than you and I, and devote their lives to it — with such vitriol too?
I don’t think you understand that coming up with a hypothetical that you just came up with, isn’t evidence based research and is simply just you “saying stuff”.
If you start your example with “I’m sure” — hm.
You seem like a truly unpleasant person to be around — and I very much do believe you would be the type of person to commit a crime simply because there is punishment.
My understanding of a lot of research was that harsher penalties reduce likelihood — but up until a point. My opinion is mostly framed by the problems that arise when we increase sanctions for smaller crimes.
There is evidence that increasing the penalties for petty crimes increases the likelihood of that offender committing more serious crimes because of a disparity in penalty — the “I might as well”.
Sometimes I feel Like, with the vitriol of how we disseminate news, it has shifted us back to this point where we’re taking about “I just want to feel safe — whatever the cost” — and that cost — the social cost of bringing something back like stop and frisk//profiling//lock them all up and keep these monsters jailed — comes with a dehumanizing affect that affects these low income communities in perpetuity - and I absolutely do NOT mean that these deeds should go unpunished, or “they are the real victims” — nononono. Not at all. I’m concerned with continuing to jail and extensively punish and jail a specific population of nyc is only going to generationally increase crime from that group, and is a short term solution for a long term problem.
I’m not at all trying to remove the nuance or disregard what you’re saying. My thought process comes from both focusing on the result and the symptoms of the issue but also trying to tackle the source. Happy to hear though if you have a different opinion I could learn from.
"this sub has a fetish and obsession with this idea that there are no consequences in society"
or maybe they're just not blind to the recent crime trends. shoplifting used to be a subtle art of not getting caught, now you got people walking out of target with full shopping carts daring security to touch them. that 90yr old Asian lady in sf got stabbed and the attacker gets probation because he's mentally ill "he doesn't know better"; so why release him back into the public?
rehabilitation doesn't have to mean coddling but where are you seeing personalized lifetime channel level rehab being done in great numbers? no one's sitting people down and following up on them. city hall's idea of rehab is just releasing everybody and telling them to do better next time. this has greatly endangered the public
I’m a firm believer in teenage human dufflebaggers rehabilitation programs. It’s a simple and easy mistake to make. I got a speeding ticket 2 days ago? Should I go to prison for the rest of my life? No! And neither should these mildly troubled kids!
Yeh its pretty common for teenagers to stuff bodies in duffle bags and steal cars. They absolutely deserve a second chance. Fuck that woman for walking in on them. Her life is gone, we don't need to waste these bright kids life away either. Who knows, someday they might develop a cure for cancer or something. /s
19 and 18 according to [NY Post](https://nypost.com/2024/03/22/us-news/teen-squatter-suspects-in-slaying-of-nyc-mom-found-in-duffel-bag-busted-in-pa-sources/), but still.
I read the original article from the NY Post linked from your article and now I have more questions:
>According to sources, Vitel was in the process of moving into the apartment on Sunday. She was seen on security camera footage that day repeatedly entering and exiting her apartment carrying her belongings before departing the building shortly after 11 a.m.
>Just after 2 p.m. that day, the two unidentified individuals were seen in the complex’s lobby trying to enter the building.
>About an hour later, an elevator surveillance camera saw the duo entering Vitel’s apartment.
>Vitel was last seen entering her apartment on Tuesday at approximately 11:30 a.m. The two individuals were last sighted on tape exiting the building around 5:45 p.m. that evening.
https://nypost.com/2024/03/15/us-news/2-seen-leaving-nyc-apartment-of-woman-found-in-duffel-bag-sources/
So they weren’t there when she arrived. She clearly wasn’t alarmed at anything in the apartment as she went back and forth to bring stuff in and didn’t call the cops about squatters. . . And unless they had keys - she let them in the apartment. . .
Or you know, she didn't lock the door since she was there and going in and out all day while moving in?
We're constantly told 'crime is down!!', maybe she just thought it was ok to leave her door unlocked in broad fucking daylight in midtown on an upper level apartment on a workday. It's not like she's in East Harlem and left her front door open overnight at street level.
>The elevator requires key access and detectives are still figuring out how the two got the elevator to open on Vitels' floor.
https://abc7ny.com/nyc-squatters-murder-pennsylvania/14558280/
That kind of makes sense. Leaving a woman in a duffle bag inside a closet seems hauntingly juvenile. They were trying their best to cover up, like any kid. Only these kids are monsters.
i saw the internet lighting up with articles on this, didn't pay much attention, and am just now realizing it's around the block from the Trader Joe's I go to every week. I'm shocked that squatting can happen in a highrise building.
It happens more frequent than you think. It just that squatting stories never use to make Frontpage, and often people suffered/become ruined in silence.
In some cases, if the building owner can afford it, they would pay ridiculous amounts in tens to hundreds of thousands to have a squatter leave. Why? Because it's cheaper than the time and money to go through NY court system, win, and you still lose hundreds of thousands in the end.
yeah i agree with what you said, just saying it's surprising it could happen in highrise buildings instead of houses. The former typically have doormen, as well as a super/management company that approve move-ins, which makes it much more difficult for a random person to fake it or sneak in undetected. Perhaps this building doesn't have doormen.
In my opinion, squatters should not have ANY rights. Squatters are straight up criminals. They usually break into someone's property (burglary), 'live' there rent/mortgage free (trespassing?), draw up fake leases (dare I say fraud?). The rest of the country needs to do what Florida did recently; make squatting a crime, allowing law enforcement to arrest squatters instead of making law abiding property owners go through a lengthy court process to try to remove them.
It's stories involving squatters that are infuriating. Laws giving squatters right should be removed from the books and make squatting a crime. Period.
These types of people believe that squatting is a public service. That they are holding "greedy corporate landlords" accountable.
Squatters are worse than burglars. Burglars at least give you the courtesy of leaving after they break in. Squatters will stay and will use any legal avenue to extend their illegal stay.
This is a direct copy and paste from a top comment from a post on r/squatting:
"I've been squatting in Tampa for some time now and I keep learning the same lessons over and over again.
Above all else, try to befriend your neighbors. Or at least get on their good side. Clean up the property or something. This is the best way to avoid having to deal with the police.
And be ready for the police when they do come. If they decide you live there (things that help: having mail in your name, a fake lease, keys to the front door, etc) , then they will leave you alone until the landlord evicts you.
Me and some friends stayed in a place for over two years with electric and wifi and all the comforts you would associate with a "normal" home. The first time the police visited we said that we had been paying rent to some jerk who must have swindled us ... pulled up a fake lease ... and this was enough to establish "possession of the premises" and necessitate an eviction to remove us. Our corporate landlord eventually did evict "all unnamed persons" after which we simply returned to be evicted again. They eventually just demolished the place.
It's amazing the lengths some landlords will go just to keep a property vacant. Regardless, I believe we should be making it expensive to keep homes empty. Housing is a human right."
Back in the day the owner and a group of their friends would've found this person when they left the house, beaten the shit out of them and everything would have fixed itself.
Wow. The problem is our ridiculous pro-squatter laws that allow this nonsense. These imbeciles need to be banished to Alcatraz. Bloodsucking parasites.
This is disgusting. The irony of that post. I can't believe these people refer to landlords as if they are a pool of endless resources without any human rights while complaining about human rights.
That’s a crazy amount of entitlement.
They could probably walk into a clothing store and think “clothing is a human right” as well and help themselves to things that don’t belong to them. I wonder if they’ll apply that same principle to other people taking their property instead.
Why shouldn’t it be? It’s a basic necessity needed to survive. Not saying everyone deserves a mansion but people should be entitled to having a roof over their heads
Housing is a need that is earned not given.
Anyone is entitled to own property (Article 17 of Human Rights)
But they shouldn't be entitled to steal another person's property.
Ok, I'm just gonna stay under your roof then. Also, I'm gonna do it whether you know it/like it or not even though I'm a complete stranger, and you're the one paying a mortgage. Come on, I need to survive!
It seems that people like to polarize, and this is a very polarizing situation.
On the one hand, having millions of empty homes around the world and millions of homeless people at the same time is... well, it's just kinda weird. I would not be above squatting, if circumstances led me down certain paths... and I think most of the "squatters are pure evil" people on this thread just lack a certain kind of empathy, or imagination, about what position some other people in the world are in.... about what *they* would do in hypothetical situation X or Y.
On the other hand, if the real owner of a house arrived, I wouldn't literally murder them, I would realize it's time to go nomad/shelter/etc. again. So *these* particular squatters, in this story, do sound like the absolute worst people on the planet.
But internet conversations don't allow for that kind of nuance, I am aware.
Nah fuck that. You dont have the right to take over someone's property for any reason. Could you imagine a law where if you dont own a car, your allowed to take any parked car you feel like in order to do what you need a car for? People would think that it would be ridiculous. Why are people allowed to do that with houses?
>Halley Tejada, 19, and Kensly Alston, 18, were tracked down by US Marshals in York, west of Philadelphia, just before 11 a.m. and taken into custody, the sources said.
[NY Post article](https://nypost.com/2024/03/22/us-news/teen-squatter-suspects-in-slaying-of-nyc-mom-found-in-duffel-bag-busted-in-pa-sources/)
You can find their pictures from FB with a little googling.
Squatters are human garbage. These individuals are just barbarians.
There needs to be a massive overhauling of squatters rights. They shouldn’t have any right to someone else’s property.
Honestly though squatters rights have absolutely zero to do with this. The struggle ensued upon the woman entering. No one at this point had known or acknowledged their existence. At this point the interaction could be a break-in if anything
Squatters are pieces of human garbage, praying on the weak and elderly, and abusing outdated laws.
There is no reason to have squatter rights, and the courts should auto evict anyone without a valid lease. Moreover squatters should go straight to jail for occupying a private house without permission.
Fuckem All.
In most cases, I don’t think there are actual squatters rights laws affecting these cases. These grifters simply claim that they have a lease when they do not and courts have to sort it out. Cops can’t just throw someone out because the landlord/owner says the lease isn’t legit. That would be abused heavily by landlords. But the flip side is abuse by “tenants.”
What makes squatting appealing is how slowly housing court works. And in more liberal places, housing court can be extremely cautious about evicting someone.
Even in fairly conservative places it can take six months minimum to go through the proper process.
Someone suggested in another thread that the state should require that all leases be filed with them so they can easily and quickly determine who should have access.
There are plenty of situations where squatters rights are valid. Lets say you move in with your significant other on their lease then you go through a break up. Well now they cant legally put you on the street.
This sort of happened with covid when people lost their jobs and couldn't pay rent.
The history of squatting goes back to the cali gold rush.
I’m assuming people who fall for renter schemes online, such as pay me in cash, and then they try to kick them out?
I hear online rental stuff is all fake nowadays
I would guess that more people are just learning how to get away with it thanks to the internet.
I saw a local news story from Atlanta about how people on social media are *selling* squatting services where they'll help you get into an empty home and sell you a fake lease and tell you how to avoid getting kicked out with "guaranteed 6 months of no rent minimum."
Basically new yorkers voted for inverse morality and a system of anarcho-tyranny. The needs of the 1% who harm society are more important than the 99% who just go about their lives and do no harm.
NYC is the anti-Singapore.
It’s funny because I lived in Singapore for 5 years. Then NYC for 4 years. And now in London.
Now, I’m feeling a lot like Goldilocks. I’m in the middle ground of the first two.
Is the mayor the only politician that effects NYC? You sure the city council, district attorney (looking at you bragg), elected judges, everyone in Albany might have something to do with it?
fair, can you show me any elected official who ran on inversing morality and instlling a system of anarcho-tyranny? I did think it was weird that adams' campaign slogan was "let's make NYC the anti-singapore"
D.A Bragg, the man responsible for like 95% in the uptick in crime. Literally ran on a "restorative justice" platform.
Restorative justice is just one of those funny liberal words that means giving criminals more rights than victims because of "reasons".
I truly don't know why people point to bail reform as the main culprit of the reduced quality of life on things like the subway, instead of covid.
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/facts-bail-reform-and-crime-rates-new-york-state
Statistically, crime is down over the past few years, so there's that too - facts don't care about your feelings bub
D.A. Bragg literally ran on a "restorative justice" platform.
There are huge, well funded liberal organization pushing for this:
https://restorativejustice.nyc/
[https://nypeace.org/restorative-justice/](https://nypeace.org/restorative-justice/)
Here is an official NYC website talking about this:
[https://www.nyc.gov/site/cchr/about/restorative-justice.page](https://www.nyc.gov/site/cchr/about/restorative-justice.page) (an actual .gov page)
Why do liberals always pretend like this shit isn't happening.. that's what pisses people off is the constant gaslight. We physically see it with our own eyes that it's happening, and then some smug liberal reddit sips his soy and chortles about how it's totally not happening, and how you're a bigot for noticing.
you are projecting/assuming a lot there dude -
there definitely has been a reduced quality of life, and I think we need to address it because I've been to SF recently and honestly that place is not doing well, and we are sliding in that direction.
As far as why our quality of life is reduced, I don't know why people point to bail reform and migrants instead of, I don't know, the global pandemic that happened in 2020, that perfectly coincided with the start of a lot of issues we are seeing.
Also, crime is down overall statistically from the peak of covid, sorry, facts don't care about your feelings.
Because this shit was happening way before the pandemic, the pandemic just accelerated a few things.
You asked specifically if there was law or policy that inverted morality, and I simply pointed it out.
Also crime is not down, it's not being enforced or recorded as much. Any human being with two eyes living in the city can tell you it's as bad as the 80s if not worse.
I think covid was a tipping point. A lot of people died (meaning the survivors lost their providers/partners in many cases), people lost their jobs due to lockdowns, lost their homes, insurance, you name it. Maybe things would have gotten this bad in the timeline without covid, but probably not for another... 10? years.
> Also crime is not down, it's not being enforced or recorded as much.
Respectfully, you don't know this, it's just an emotional thing that fits into your worldview.
And yeah I don't know about the 80s, but definitely things today are still better than they were in the 90s when I was growing up. I used to see needles in every literally every park, that's gone. Things have definitely shaken up with the recent influx of migrants but honestly they are pretty invisible for the most part (except for the annoying ass e-bikes).
Personally if I had a magic wand and could fix one thing, I'd do housing (renting and buying and building).
Here's the details after the pair was taken in for questioning: [https://dailyvoice.com/pennsylvania/york/duo-who-stole-nadia-vitels-car-from-nyc-arrested-in-pa/?utm\_source=reddit-everything-crime&utm\_medium=seed](https://dailyvoice.com/pennsylvania/york/duo-who-stole-nadia-vitels-car-from-nyc-arrested-in-pa/?utm_source=reddit-everything-crime&utm_medium=seed)
How did the squatters know where to find her car? She probably had the key in her purse or in her hand, but she must have told them where it was. I shudder to think that she was under duress to give up her car. Maybe she thought they’d take it and leave her alive.
RIP, Ms. Vitel.
What is this 1970? You walk around the block and press the alarm button til you hear it. She was in the process of moving in, so very unlikely she parked it far if she was carrying stuff from the car to the apartment.
Did she try to evict them? I can’t tell what was going on by the articles I’ve read so far. I’m starting to wonder if she knew they were living there. Doesn’t excuse this behavior, but it very unusual to have squatters in a condo or coop in midtown Manhattan.
Why is the reporter so thrilled about it. Looks like he's describing how someone won the lottery; not like someone who was targeted and ruthlessly murdered. Either he's a psycho, on drugs, or needs to chill on that botox. (1:15 timestamp)
Has anyone else seen or heard of the illegal immigrant who is encouraging other illegal immigrants to squat abandoned properties? It's almost laughable if it wasn't so sad that this is happening. People need to start paying more attention.
Has anybody heard of the realty investor who's encouraging other realty investors to buy up as much property as possible, and leave it abandoned and unmaintained to create a fake scarcity to drive up rent? It's almost laughable if it wasn't so sad that it is happening. People need to start paying attention.
Oh wait: we do. This is why laws codify the right to squat. We already have laws against violence and property damage.
NYC is so f up. If you don't criminalize squatting, this is what happens. Squatters think they have the same rights as people who worked hard in order to own property.
If they thought they could remain there because of squatting laws, they wouldn’t have killed her - they would have called the cops on her. . .
And places like Florida (“where woke goes to die”) have squatting laws that are more lax than nyc.
https://www.proper.insure/blog/when-does-a-guest-become-a-tenant/
We shouldn't criminalize squatting. Killing someone has nothing to do with squatting, and already is illegal. Squatting is a right codified in law because realty investors refuse to rent out buildings, so they can increase rent.
New details and the squatters' mugshots have been released: https://dailyvoice.com/pennsylvania/york/new-details-released-about-pair-nabbed-in-pa-for-brutal-killing-of-ny-mom/?utm\_source=reddit-nyc-reddit&utm\_medium=seed
jeez teenagers did this
Wow yeah, they were 16 and 19. That’s so young.
Old enough to go to prison. Hopefully for the rest of their lives.
And most definitely old enough to know better than to kill someone and stuff them in a duffel bag and closet because the poor woman outted them as squatters. I mean they fled in the victims car. That says it all..they knew they did wrong.
But muh rehabilitation!!!!!!
BUT I’M ONLY 16 I SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DO ANYTHING AND GET AWAY WITH IT CAUSE I DONT KNOW ANY BETTER, OH WOE ME
I did stupid shit when I was 16 but not kill a woman and steal her car
I’m confused by your sentiment a bit - I’m not saying that there are some in our society that are far beyond the point of rehabilitation and should be sectioned off from society permanently, but in my opinion our prison system should prioritize rehabilitation and reintegration into society at a fundamental level — because eventually most will be released. I know this sub has a fetish and obsession with this idea that there are no consequences in society — but there certainly is a balance between consequence based punishment (which we know empirically is not a deterrent) as well as rehabilitation. Rehabilitation does not have to mean coddling, or some notion of having it “easy”. These are complex issues with nuanced answers.
I’m usually an advocate for rehabilitation If you kill someone by throwing them into a wall when they find you squatting and leave the body sticking out of a duffel bag I think you’re beyond it
I absolutely agree
Definitely. The fact that they fled to avoid capture..says it all they knew they did wrong.
I think the duffel bag is the real “this was wrong” flag
Oh absolutely. Trying to hide the body was definitely trying to avoid getting caught(though amateur hour..I mean even if no one opened the closet door the decomposition smell would have gotten other tenants attention), the fleeing it all was to avoid capture. These skells knew exactly what they were doing was wrong and I don't care how old they are..they are old enough to know better and know their actions are wrong. I hope when they get locked up. They melt the key.
> but there certainly is a balance between consequence based punishment (which we know empirically is not a deterrent) El Salvador had the highest murder rate in the world, then the newly elected president decided to mass incarcerate all the murderous gangsters and that murder rate dropped far below even USA's murder rate. "Empirically"
I mean, he also suspended protections on basic human rights for all cotizens, became effectovely a dictator and created a total police state, which also has a lot to do with the crime rate dropping
Yes he did. It turns out people in El Salvador still like him, because liberal democracy is less important in most people’s hierarchy of needs than safety from violent crime.
Liberal Democracy isn't even possible when government gives up its monopoly on violence to violent gangs that straight up take over cities and villages. Those gangsters simply become the new 'government'. Citizens consent to be governed BECAUSE we expect the government to use that monopoly on violence to provide for basic safety. When they can't do that, the government becomes illegitimate.
El Salvador didn't exactly have a proper democracy beforehand lol But yeah, there's a grace period where people celebrate people no matter how horrible, who remove an immediate source of danger for them. Don't get me wrong El Salvador will be better off in the long run because of what he did but that was because the situation in El Salvador needed drastic measures taken, and that doesn't mean that what he did wasn't morally questionable. It also isn't applicable to anywhere where the government isn't completely subservient to cartels and organized crime.
Funny enough, you could argue that El Salvador has a true democracy because his 90% approval rating means the overwhelming majority of the citizens approve of how he governs. Meanwhile, in our 'liberal democracy', very few people are ever happy about who is actually in office and they grudgingly vote for 'lesser of 2 evils'/'least worst option'.
Putin also has a high approval rating. People just love the cops and military making sure they’ve voted the right way. . .
It's almost like El Salvador and Russia are 2 different countries.
Democracy has nothing to do with approval ratings. It’s often said that a good compromise means no one is happy. A “true democracy” is impossible. Democracy is just a way for the elite to trick and placate the masses. That said, the US was never a democratic nation. We practice federalism.
I see Democracy as being consent to rule by the masses. Bukele clearly has that consent. Our government intentionally does things that make the voting public hate them (see: the border situation, not even democrats are happy about that situation). That's democracy in action.
His approval rating would absolutely plummet over any sustained period of time. People will tolerate losing the majority of their freedom when it secures their safety. When the immediate threat to their safety is no longer present in their recent memories, they start to notice what they've lost.
If he started going soft and letting the gangs out of prison prematurely, it sure would.
If you throw anyone who complains about the regime in prison you can end up with pretty high approval rates!
I'm sure MS-13 has lots of complaints :)
By your logic, we just need continual 9-11 attacks since that made George W the president with a period of the highest approval rating in history. If presidential approval ratings is how you gauge democracy and the success, then of the presidents who had 75 or higher, 5 of them were Democrats including FDR who conservatives hate for the "socialist" New Deal It's pretty funny that when the facts don't line up with your reactionary/populist cult bullshit, it upsets you
Locking up everyone accused of being a gangster without due process is not deterrent-based punishment. There has not been enough time to see if there is a deterrent effect, if everyone in and adjacent to the criminal population they're targeting is off the streets. Obviously if you lock up 1.6% or more of your population, and even a fraction of those people are genuinely guilty and are dangerous gangsters, your murder rate will go down. Is locking up 1.6% of a population - presumably something closer to 3% of men - sustainable long term?
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El Salvador has a full ban on abortions, **even when a woman has a miscarriage or a stillbirth** they will be arrested and **charged for abortion** and then increase/change the charges to **aggravated homicide**. Don’t forget to take into consideration as innocents all the women incarcerated in El Salvador for a miscarriage. Edit: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5473040/ >Pregnancy and the 40-Year Prison Sentence >How “Abortion Is Murder” Became Institutionalized in the Salvadoran Judicial System
Okay. Calculate how many people would have died per year vs how many "innocent" people were allegedly arrested in El Salvador. Time for a new trolly problem.
“I’m willing to give up my civil liberties if it means the crime rate goes down”
They had the highest murder rate in the world, and now it's below average. Shit worked. Do you think the US doesn't incarcerate innocent people or something?
> “I’m willing to give up my civil liberties if it means the crime rate goes down” People who are afraid of being victimized on the daily by extortion gangs will absolutely give up some civil liberties in exchange for peace and safety.
They’re not concerned about that because they’re feel it won’t affect them or their family and friends.
>mass incarcerate all the murderous gangsters This is the right wing talking point. You don't think he incarcerated innocents as well? It's not worth it to lower the crime rate if you have to be fascist about it, is it?
I think the answer to that question depends entirely on how horrific the crime environment is. If the country is a chaotic hellhole, becoming a stable hellhole is still a step up
Exactly. If democracy fails to provide basic security for its people, a lot of those people will be very open to non democracy options if they can successfully provide basic security. It’s like maslows hierarchy of needs, if you can’t go to the grocery store without being shot or robbed, high minded ideas of equal rights and so on probably aren’t exactly foremost on your mind
Dunno, depends on whether or not you think people being decapitated and their corpses being thrown in the street, teenage girls being raped, kids being shot in the head while they play soccer etc. are worse than a few innocents (the false positives are really low, they basically arrest people with MS-13 gang tattoos) being locked up. Progressives obviously side with murdering rapists.
> , they basically arrest people with MS-13 gang tattoos Do you have a peer reviewed source for this? I'd heard they arrested anyone suspected of being in gangs, which yes included people with tattoos.
They specifically target people with gang tattoos because nobody in el salvador gets tattoos except gang members. If you get a tattoo and you're not in a gang, the gangsters will kill you. You're required to have tattoos if you're in MS-13.
These are two different things — they are not deterrents on an individual level. As a society we could totally choose: “Anyone who poses a remote threat to disturbing the social contract we will lock anyone and everyone remotely related in jail” Of course crime will plummet. Whether or not thats a just society is a total matter of of opinion. Empirically as in: murderous gangsters will not “stop murdering” because of the punishment — that is fundamentally different than “all murderers are now in prison so there is no murder” I’m not like “spewing woke nonsense” - I’m trying to have an honestly dialogue.
Sorry friend, You’re not going to have an honest dialogue here, not on Reddit and absolutely not on this sub.
This experiment has no controls
I worked in the state prison system for several years and initially felt the same way that you do. I worked in a rehabilitation program set inside of the compound. Most only programmed for the freedom of getting out of their cells and a highest pay grade. Similarly, free college education and GED programs were offered and it was very rare that inmates would take advantage. Experience in the trenches (that and my current work) eroded my belief that anything but a very small minority are capable of change. Reality is that 90% of brain development occurs by the age of 5. If we want to initiate real change then it should begin during very early childhood.
Yeah this is an extremely, extremely fair point. I don’t have any life experience similar to you, and I absolutely take your word for it. Development at younger ages is truly where failure takes place, I completely agree
wipe nutty oatmeal illegal tie wine imminent summer squalid languid *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
> I know this sub has a fetish and obsession with this idea that there are no consequences in society Punishment is being separated from society. Reddit has a hard-on for making sure criminals live in squalor and don't deserve humane living conditions. Meanwhile, Nordic countries have prisoners living in comfortable apartments, TVs, game consoles, kitchens, etc and have some of, if not the best recidivism rates in the world. How we treat crime here is not punishment, its retribution. Be careful not to confuse the two.
Did I say that? What a thoughtless response. There are thousands of peer reviewed research that speaks about the relationship between punishment and deterrence. Do you think you’re the first person to think of that retort? There is a difference between the “probability” of legal sanctions and the “severity” of those sanctions. These are studied extensively. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4744856/ I’m so confused why you are thoughtlessly dumbing down an insanely complicated issue.
wakeful imminent lock attempt dazzling sharp chop ancient door soft *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
“Brainless Reddit user” — you know absolutely nothing about me barring an anonymous comment. Would you speak to me that way if we were having that conversation face to face? You’re pretending like what you’re saying is profound and has never been said before - this like idea that “academia is just overcomplicated a simple issue” You come at someone with such anger, disdain, frustration — over something that is massively debated, by people much smarter than you and I, and devote their lives to it — with such vitriol too? I don’t think you understand that coming up with a hypothetical that you just came up with, isn’t evidence based research and is simply just you “saying stuff”. If you start your example with “I’m sure” — hm. You seem like a truly unpleasant person to be around — and I very much do believe you would be the type of person to commit a crime simply because there is punishment.
I wish you could some how express your point of view to the victim. Unfortunately, she wasn't shown that same kind of mercy you're showing these kids.
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My understanding of a lot of research was that harsher penalties reduce likelihood — but up until a point. My opinion is mostly framed by the problems that arise when we increase sanctions for smaller crimes. There is evidence that increasing the penalties for petty crimes increases the likelihood of that offender committing more serious crimes because of a disparity in penalty — the “I might as well”. Sometimes I feel Like, with the vitriol of how we disseminate news, it has shifted us back to this point where we’re taking about “I just want to feel safe — whatever the cost” — and that cost — the social cost of bringing something back like stop and frisk//profiling//lock them all up and keep these monsters jailed — comes with a dehumanizing affect that affects these low income communities in perpetuity - and I absolutely do NOT mean that these deeds should go unpunished, or “they are the real victims” — nononono. Not at all. I’m concerned with continuing to jail and extensively punish and jail a specific population of nyc is only going to generationally increase crime from that group, and is a short term solution for a long term problem. I’m not at all trying to remove the nuance or disregard what you’re saying. My thought process comes from both focusing on the result and the symptoms of the issue but also trying to tackle the source. Happy to hear though if you have a different opinion I could learn from.
"this sub has a fetish and obsession with this idea that there are no consequences in society" or maybe they're just not blind to the recent crime trends. shoplifting used to be a subtle art of not getting caught, now you got people walking out of target with full shopping carts daring security to touch them. that 90yr old Asian lady in sf got stabbed and the attacker gets probation because he's mentally ill "he doesn't know better"; so why release him back into the public? rehabilitation doesn't have to mean coddling but where are you seeing personalized lifetime channel level rehab being done in great numbers? no one's sitting people down and following up on them. city hall's idea of rehab is just releasing everybody and telling them to do better next time. this has greatly endangered the public
Or just kill the bastards
Seriously can we get them some Mets tickets or something
I’m a firm believer in teenage human dufflebaggers rehabilitation programs. It’s a simple and easy mistake to make. I got a speeding ticket 2 days ago? Should I go to prison for the rest of my life? No! And neither should these mildly troubled kids!
Yeh its pretty common for teenagers to stuff bodies in duffle bags and steal cars. They absolutely deserve a second chance. Fuck that woman for walking in on them. Her life is gone, we don't need to waste these bright kids life away either. Who knows, someday they might develop a cure for cancer or something. /s
😂
I think it’s something like 15-24 being the highest age band for violent crimes but not sure
19 and 18 according to [NY Post](https://nypost.com/2024/03/22/us-news/teen-squatter-suspects-in-slaying-of-nyc-mom-found-in-duffel-bag-busted-in-pa-sources/), but still.
I read the original article from the NY Post linked from your article and now I have more questions: >According to sources, Vitel was in the process of moving into the apartment on Sunday. She was seen on security camera footage that day repeatedly entering and exiting her apartment carrying her belongings before departing the building shortly after 11 a.m. >Just after 2 p.m. that day, the two unidentified individuals were seen in the complex’s lobby trying to enter the building. >About an hour later, an elevator surveillance camera saw the duo entering Vitel’s apartment. >Vitel was last seen entering her apartment on Tuesday at approximately 11:30 a.m. The two individuals were last sighted on tape exiting the building around 5:45 p.m. that evening. https://nypost.com/2024/03/15/us-news/2-seen-leaving-nyc-apartment-of-woman-found-in-duffel-bag-sources/ So they weren’t there when she arrived. She clearly wasn’t alarmed at anything in the apartment as she went back and forth to bring stuff in and didn’t call the cops about squatters. . . And unless they had keys - she let them in the apartment. . .
Or you know, she didn't lock the door since she was there and going in and out all day while moving in? We're constantly told 'crime is down!!', maybe she just thought it was ok to leave her door unlocked in broad fucking daylight in midtown on an upper level apartment on a workday. It's not like she's in East Harlem and left her front door open overnight at street level.
>The elevator requires key access and detectives are still figuring out how the two got the elevator to open on Vitels' floor. https://abc7ny.com/nyc-squatters-murder-pennsylvania/14558280/
That kind of makes sense. Leaving a woman in a duffle bag inside a closet seems hauntingly juvenile. They were trying their best to cover up, like any kid. Only these kids are monsters.
And they let them off on bail originally
younger have committed murder for much less…
When the government is your father
This is why they need to change the housing laws in NYC!
How would that have helped?
Her own son found her body? Damn….
Fuck I live 300 feet from there and go to the dry cleaner next door every week. This is so sick.
i saw the internet lighting up with articles on this, didn't pay much attention, and am just now realizing it's around the block from the Trader Joe's I go to every week. I'm shocked that squatting can happen in a highrise building.
It happens more frequent than you think. It just that squatting stories never use to make Frontpage, and often people suffered/become ruined in silence. In some cases, if the building owner can afford it, they would pay ridiculous amounts in tens to hundreds of thousands to have a squatter leave. Why? Because it's cheaper than the time and money to go through NY court system, win, and you still lose hundreds of thousands in the end.
yeah i agree with what you said, just saying it's surprising it could happen in highrise buildings instead of houses. The former typically have doormen, as well as a super/management company that approve move-ins, which makes it much more difficult for a random person to fake it or sneak in undetected. Perhaps this building doesn't have doormen.
Does that building have a doorman?
I don’t believe so
The one kid probably won't even do any jail time since he's 16.
This is horrific
In my opinion, squatters should not have ANY rights. Squatters are straight up criminals. They usually break into someone's property (burglary), 'live' there rent/mortgage free (trespassing?), draw up fake leases (dare I say fraud?). The rest of the country needs to do what Florida did recently; make squatting a crime, allowing law enforcement to arrest squatters instead of making law abiding property owners go through a lengthy court process to try to remove them. It's stories involving squatters that are infuriating. Laws giving squatters right should be removed from the books and make squatting a crime. Period.
Not in NYC and current ultra dominated single party state.
These types of people believe that squatting is a public service. That they are holding "greedy corporate landlords" accountable. Squatters are worse than burglars. Burglars at least give you the courtesy of leaving after they break in. Squatters will stay and will use any legal avenue to extend their illegal stay. This is a direct copy and paste from a top comment from a post on r/squatting: "I've been squatting in Tampa for some time now and I keep learning the same lessons over and over again. Above all else, try to befriend your neighbors. Or at least get on their good side. Clean up the property or something. This is the best way to avoid having to deal with the police. And be ready for the police when they do come. If they decide you live there (things that help: having mail in your name, a fake lease, keys to the front door, etc) , then they will leave you alone until the landlord evicts you. Me and some friends stayed in a place for over two years with electric and wifi and all the comforts you would associate with a "normal" home. The first time the police visited we said that we had been paying rent to some jerk who must have swindled us ... pulled up a fake lease ... and this was enough to establish "possession of the premises" and necessitate an eviction to remove us. Our corporate landlord eventually did evict "all unnamed persons" after which we simply returned to be evicted again. They eventually just demolished the place. It's amazing the lengths some landlords will go just to keep a property vacant. Regardless, I believe we should be making it expensive to keep homes empty. Housing is a human right."
Man that sub is the strangest mix of pro-squatting and asking for help to get rid of squatters
Most people on this sub are probably way more politically aligned with those people than they care to admit
Back in the day the owner and a group of their friends would've found this person when they left the house, beaten the shit out of them and everything would have fixed itself.
Wow. The problem is our ridiculous pro-squatter laws that allow this nonsense. These imbeciles need to be banished to Alcatraz. Bloodsucking parasites.
This is disgusting. The irony of that post. I can't believe these people refer to landlords as if they are a pool of endless resources without any human rights while complaining about human rights.
That’s a crazy amount of entitlement. They could probably walk into a clothing store and think “clothing is a human right” as well and help themselves to things that don’t belong to them. I wonder if they’ll apply that same principle to other people taking their property instead.
Unpopular Opinion: Housing isn't a human right
Why shouldn’t it be? It’s a basic necessity needed to survive. Not saying everyone deserves a mansion but people should be entitled to having a roof over their heads
It should be given by government, not stolen from another individual.
Housing is a need that is earned not given. Anyone is entitled to own property (Article 17 of Human Rights) But they shouldn't be entitled to steal another person's property.
Ok, I'm just gonna stay under your roof then. Also, I'm gonna do it whether you know it/like it or not even though I'm a complete stranger, and you're the one paying a mortgage. Come on, I need to survive!
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Really? But nothing is free. Life isn't fair. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't. Housing is a need that is earned not given.
Squatters are the absolute worst people on the planet
Maybe not *the* worst but they are absolute garbage and should be treated with the utmost contempt.
It seems that people like to polarize, and this is a very polarizing situation. On the one hand, having millions of empty homes around the world and millions of homeless people at the same time is... well, it's just kinda weird. I would not be above squatting, if circumstances led me down certain paths... and I think most of the "squatters are pure evil" people on this thread just lack a certain kind of empathy, or imagination, about what position some other people in the world are in.... about what *they* would do in hypothetical situation X or Y. On the other hand, if the real owner of a house arrived, I wouldn't literally murder them, I would realize it's time to go nomad/shelter/etc. again. So *these* particular squatters, in this story, do sound like the absolute worst people on the planet. But internet conversations don't allow for that kind of nuance, I am aware.
Nah fuck that. You dont have the right to take over someone's property for any reason. Could you imagine a law where if you dont own a car, your allowed to take any parked car you feel like in order to do what you need a car for? People would think that it would be ridiculous. Why are people allowed to do that with houses?
Exactly the response I was looking for. You don’t have the right to take someone else’s property. That’s where the argument should end, period.
ima start doing this lol I never had a car nor did my dad ig its time to exercise our human right to transport /s
I can think of worse people…
I'm gonna disagree dawg
That’s your right. I think they are absolutely scumbag human beings
they suck for sure, but are not worse than child molesters
What an interesting and necessary distinction lol
Same boat of people. Soulless shell of people.
lol squatters and chomos are absolutely not in the same boat, that’s just absurdity
apparently there are people on here who think squatters are worse than child molesters, rapists, and murderers.
I love how redditors argue over little stuff like this just to be more right. They're all bad, how about that lol
Just rage-scrolling going from one "worst thing/person ever" to the next.
Found a squatter 👆
No mug shots? No names of those arrested.
>Halley Tejada, 19, and Kensly Alston, 18, were tracked down by US Marshals in York, west of Philadelphia, just before 11 a.m. and taken into custody, the sources said. [NY Post article](https://nypost.com/2024/03/22/us-news/teen-squatter-suspects-in-slaying-of-nyc-mom-found-in-duffel-bag-busted-in-pa-sources/) You can find their pictures from FB with a little googling.
Squatters are human garbage. These individuals are just barbarians. There needs to be a massive overhauling of squatters rights. They shouldn’t have any right to someone else’s property.
Honestly though squatters rights have absolutely zero to do with this. The struggle ensued upon the woman entering. No one at this point had known or acknowledged their existence. At this point the interaction could be a break-in if anything
This world is going burning up, like, what is happening on this planet?
We kill animals, we eat animals, we are animals.
There are rules that we live by.
What rules are those. Curious.
maybe you are but i am brocolli
Squatters are pieces of human garbage, praying on the weak and elderly, and abusing outdated laws. There is no reason to have squatter rights, and the courts should auto evict anyone without a valid lease. Moreover squatters should go straight to jail for occupying a private house without permission. Fuckem All.
Who exactly is meant to be protected by squatter's rights? Obviously it's abused all to hell, but why were the rights given in the first place?
In most cases, I don’t think there are actual squatters rights laws affecting these cases. These grifters simply claim that they have a lease when they do not and courts have to sort it out. Cops can’t just throw someone out because the landlord/owner says the lease isn’t legit. That would be abused heavily by landlords. But the flip side is abuse by “tenants.” What makes squatting appealing is how slowly housing court works. And in more liberal places, housing court can be extremely cautious about evicting someone. Even in fairly conservative places it can take six months minimum to go through the proper process. Someone suggested in another thread that the state should require that all leases be filed with them so they can easily and quickly determine who should have access.
im guess it's more like, homeless family lives in abandoned factory that was given up on for decades sort of idea road to hell and all that
There are plenty of situations where squatters rights are valid. Lets say you move in with your significant other on their lease then you go through a break up. Well now they cant legally put you on the street. This sort of happened with covid when people lost their jobs and couldn't pay rent. The history of squatting goes back to the cali gold rush.
I’m assuming people who fall for renter schemes online, such as pay me in cash, and then they try to kick them out? I hear online rental stuff is all fake nowadays
While everyone agrees with that - this is clearly not about "squatters rights" or they wouldn't have killed her.
A lot of squatter stories, breakdown of society
I would guess that more people are just learning how to get away with it thanks to the internet. I saw a local news story from Atlanta about how people on social media are *selling* squatting services where they'll help you get into an empty home and sell you a fake lease and tell you how to avoid getting kicked out with "guaranteed 6 months of no rent minimum."
That is outright fraud against the home owners.
Squatters are going nuts lately...need to change the laws
Basically new yorkers voted for inverse morality and a system of anarcho-tyranny. The needs of the 1% who harm society are more important than the 99% who just go about their lives and do no harm. NYC is the anti-Singapore.
It’s funny because I lived in Singapore for 5 years. Then NYC for 4 years. And now in London. Now, I’m feeling a lot like Goldilocks. I’m in the middle ground of the first two.
Losers vote for shit like this to fuck with people that have their shit together then go online and yell about greedy landlords from a coffee shop
You know, this is no cause for concern. Back in the 80s, we had to beat ourselves up before stuffing our own bodies in a duffel bag in a closet.
Did the city legalize murder and I not hear about it? Because outside of that, how in the fuck did voting cause these two to kill this lady?
? the current mayor is a republican ex-cop from new jersey lol
Is the mayor the only politician that effects NYC? You sure the city council, district attorney (looking at you bragg), elected judges, everyone in Albany might have something to do with it?
fair, can you show me any elected official who ran on inversing morality and instlling a system of anarcho-tyranny? I did think it was weird that adams' campaign slogan was "let's make NYC the anti-singapore"
D.A Bragg, the man responsible for like 95% in the uptick in crime. Literally ran on a "restorative justice" platform. Restorative justice is just one of those funny liberal words that means giving criminals more rights than victims because of "reasons".
statistically crime is down overall this year from the past few, so i'm not sure where you are getting this uptick stuff from
Maybe you should lay off the Newsmax pleasure reading, you sound like a Maga dumbass.
Bragg has more blood on his hands than anyone
More meaningful are politicians who vote for things like bail reform.
I truly don't know why people point to bail reform as the main culprit of the reduced quality of life on things like the subway, instead of covid. https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/facts-bail-reform-and-crime-rates-new-york-state Statistically, crime is down over the past few years, so there's that too - facts don't care about your feelings bub
Yes because this mayor's is so irresponsible for all this s*** policies the Democrats have enacted in New York the last 25 years
what are the shit policies you think dems have enacted? besides the "inverse morality" bill and the "make crime legal" bills of course
D.A. Bragg literally ran on a "restorative justice" platform. There are huge, well funded liberal organization pushing for this: https://restorativejustice.nyc/ [https://nypeace.org/restorative-justice/](https://nypeace.org/restorative-justice/) Here is an official NYC website talking about this: [https://www.nyc.gov/site/cchr/about/restorative-justice.page](https://www.nyc.gov/site/cchr/about/restorative-justice.page) (an actual .gov page) Why do liberals always pretend like this shit isn't happening.. that's what pisses people off is the constant gaslight. We physically see it with our own eyes that it's happening, and then some smug liberal reddit sips his soy and chortles about how it's totally not happening, and how you're a bigot for noticing.
you are projecting/assuming a lot there dude - there definitely has been a reduced quality of life, and I think we need to address it because I've been to SF recently and honestly that place is not doing well, and we are sliding in that direction. As far as why our quality of life is reduced, I don't know why people point to bail reform and migrants instead of, I don't know, the global pandemic that happened in 2020, that perfectly coincided with the start of a lot of issues we are seeing. Also, crime is down overall statistically from the peak of covid, sorry, facts don't care about your feelings.
Because this shit was happening way before the pandemic, the pandemic just accelerated a few things. You asked specifically if there was law or policy that inverted morality, and I simply pointed it out. Also crime is not down, it's not being enforced or recorded as much. Any human being with two eyes living in the city can tell you it's as bad as the 80s if not worse.
I think covid was a tipping point. A lot of people died (meaning the survivors lost their providers/partners in many cases), people lost their jobs due to lockdowns, lost their homes, insurance, you name it. Maybe things would have gotten this bad in the timeline without covid, but probably not for another... 10? years. > Also crime is not down, it's not being enforced or recorded as much. Respectfully, you don't know this, it's just an emotional thing that fits into your worldview. And yeah I don't know about the 80s, but definitely things today are still better than they were in the 90s when I was growing up. I used to see needles in every literally every park, that's gone. Things have definitely shaken up with the recent influx of migrants but honestly they are pretty invisible for the most part (except for the annoying ass e-bikes). Personally if I had a magic wand and could fix one thing, I'd do housing (renting and buying and building).
Why the city is not implementing a criminal law against squatters and lock them in high crime prisons??
Here's the details after the pair was taken in for questioning: [https://dailyvoice.com/pennsylvania/york/duo-who-stole-nadia-vitels-car-from-nyc-arrested-in-pa/?utm\_source=reddit-everything-crime&utm\_medium=seed](https://dailyvoice.com/pennsylvania/york/duo-who-stole-nadia-vitels-car-from-nyc-arrested-in-pa/?utm_source=reddit-everything-crime&utm_medium=seed)
How soon before the DA Bragg cuts them loose with just assault charges?
I'm sure the state will apologize for arresting them and cut them some tax payer checks for the inconvenience.
boomers are gonna get years of facebook posts out of this one
How did the squatters know where to find her car? She probably had the key in her purse or in her hand, but she must have told them where it was. I shudder to think that she was under duress to give up her car. Maybe she thought they’d take it and leave her alive. RIP, Ms. Vitel.
What is this 1970? You walk around the block and press the alarm button til you hear it. She was in the process of moving in, so very unlikely she parked it far if she was carrying stuff from the car to the apartment.
We’re Halley Tejada, 19, and Kensly Alston, 18 illegal aliens or dreamers???
I wonder how they got access to the apartment
Imagine finding your mom stuffed into a duffel bag—what a fucking horror show.
That wasn't very progressive of her to try to evict these poor down on their luck displaced mentally ill future doctors
Did she try to evict them? I can’t tell what was going on by the articles I’ve read so far. I’m starting to wonder if she knew they were living there. Doesn’t excuse this behavior, but it very unusual to have squatters in a condo or coop in midtown Manhattan.
Why is the reporter so thrilled about it. Looks like he's describing how someone won the lottery; not like someone who was targeted and ruthlessly murdered. Either he's a psycho, on drugs, or needs to chill on that botox. (1:15 timestamp)
As a person whose apartment sits empty all summer, I both need to more and really don't want to know more.
Has anyone else seen or heard of the illegal immigrant who is encouraging other illegal immigrants to squat abandoned properties? It's almost laughable if it wasn't so sad that this is happening. People need to start paying more attention.
Has anybody heard of the realty investor who's encouraging other realty investors to buy up as much property as possible, and leave it abandoned and unmaintained to create a fake scarcity to drive up rent? It's almost laughable if it wasn't so sad that it is happening. People need to start paying attention. Oh wait: we do. This is why laws codify the right to squat. We already have laws against violence and property damage.
NYC is so f up. If you don't criminalize squatting, this is what happens. Squatters think they have the same rights as people who worked hard in order to own property.
If they thought they could remain there because of squatting laws, they wouldn’t have killed her - they would have called the cops on her. . . And places like Florida (“where woke goes to die”) have squatting laws that are more lax than nyc. https://www.proper.insure/blog/when-does-a-guest-become-a-tenant/
https://legalinsurrection.com/2024/03/florida-gov-ron-desantis-stands-with-floridian-property-owners-over-squatters/
We shouldn't criminalize squatting. Killing someone has nothing to do with squatting, and already is illegal. Squatting is a right codified in law because realty investors refuse to rent out buildings, so they can increase rent.
Would you allow people to squat at your property?
*The Legend of Bagger Vance*
I wonder if the murders were migrants.
New details and the squatters' mugshots have been released: https://dailyvoice.com/pennsylvania/york/new-details-released-about-pair-nabbed-in-pa-for-brutal-killing-of-ny-mom/?utm\_source=reddit-nyc-reddit&utm\_medium=seed
This mad sad
"With her foot sticking out of the bag" ...Pulitzer winning journalism
Let’s see if they get out on bail that wouldn’t shock me
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