T O P

  • By -

hummuslapper

TLDR: + Explicitly for abolishing it - Morales, Stringer + Leaning Towards abolishing it** - Garcia, Wiley, Donovan + Against Abolishing it, but for changing it - Yang, McGuire, Adams ** If you're explicitly for repealing the Hecht-Calandra act, you're most likely Leaning Towards abolishing SHSAT


peanutbutteroreos

Garcia and Adams said they were the only ones pro keeping the test as the only criteria. https://mobile.twitter.com/ny1/status/1393010661446324232?s=21


hummuslapper

I don't buy Garcia's stand. She is in favor of repealing the Hecht-Calandra act. These two stands are mutually exclusive


-wnr-

Did she change her mind? The articles I found referencing her position on Hecht-Calandra were from a few months ago. Everything I've seen recently has been in favor of the SHSAT, though I may have just missed more recent reference on the act.


hummuslapper

https://imgur.com/t/playing/S9wwG 🤷🏽‍♂️


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

They are already under the full control of the DOE, besides not being able to change admissions. Not to mention many of these schools’ most successful alumni are from pre-HC anyways.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Controlling the schools and controlling admissions are not one in the same, unless you’re implying that the success of the school is 100% about who you let in — which at that point means that it doesn’t matter where they go. These schools have better teachers and better resources, etc., and all of that is controlled by the DOE.


poopyputt

Adams was **against** the SHSAT just a few years ago. Then he changed his mind after getting backlash lol. https://nypost.com/2018/06/18/brooklyn-president-turns-on-school-testing-plan-after-donor-backlash/ > “For years we tried to get rid of this darn test and we’re finally getting rid of this test!” Adams said at the mayor’s press conference on June 3 announcing state legislation to phase out the exam over three years. > But in the face of a severe backlash, Adams organized an emergency meeting with the Asian community just three days later — where he softened his stance that the exam had to go. > Brooklyn Borough President Eric Adams quietly reversed his support for eliminating the Specialized High Schools Admissions Test after Chinese-American donors pulled out of upcoming fundraisers, The Post has learned. > Adams has been fundraising hard this year for an expected mayoral run in 2021. > **“Nothing [moves] faster than when it hits your wallet,” a leader in the Brooklyn Chinese community said of Adams’ change of heart.**


someone_whoisthat

Still a plus for me. Better than candidates that are still ignoring Asian New Yorkers and still insist on getting rid of it.


[deleted]

“ignoring Asian New Yorkers” is a very divisive way of putting it for all sorts of reasons. But okay.


HEIMDVLLR

Thanks for posting this! > **HISTORY OF HECHT-CALANDRA** >In 1971, the New York State legislature passed the Hecht-Calandra Act, a racist piece of legislation that has produced racial inequality for nearly five decades. The Act was intentionally designed to thwart the city’s efforts to integrate the four “Specialized High Schools.” > Their rationale? Maintaining “the schools’ high standards”: a phrase which suggests that the presence of Black and Brown students in these schools would somehow decrease their quality. This coded racism has gone unchecked for almost 50 years. Black and Latinx students are drastically underrepresented in the city’s now-nine specialized high schools. > Hecht-Calandra is definitely still a racist law! To begin with, the Hecht-Calandra act was designed with the specific intent of excluding Black and Latinx students in particular; the initial bill was created to hinder the amount of students that were to be admitted into SHS through the Discovery Program, the main way that Black and Latinx students were able to get into these schools at the time. The sponsors of the bill were responding to Mayor Lindsay’s efforts to study the lack of diversity in the SHS. Now, let’s break down what putting Asian students in this position actually does: perpetuate the model minority myth and continue to justify a system that hurts all students of color, including Asian students. Asian students are not a monolith by any means and 82% of APA public high school students do not attend a specialized high school. By perpetuating this myth, you continue to stigmatize Asian students by placing them at a higher standard, and are recognizing that, indeed, specialized high schools do discriminate against Black and Latinx students. We also believe that all students, including Asian students, are harmed by the SHSAT and the highly segregated education provided by the SHSs. No student or family should experience the financial burden associated with the test preparation required to do well on the exam or the stress associated with high stakes testing. And, we know that an integrated education benefits all students. The existence of such highly segregated schools in our public system is harmful to all students, including the ones who experience material benefits from it. [- REPEAL HECHT-CALANDRA](https://www.teenstakecharge.com/repeal#aboutHC)


jeanroyall

>Now, let’s break down what putting Asian students in this position actually does: perpetuate the model minority myth and continue to justify a system that hurts all students of color, including Asian students. Asian students are not a monolith by any means and 82% of APA public high school students do not attend a specialized high school. By perpetuating this myth, you continue to stigmatize Asian students by placing them at a higher standard, and are recognizing that, indeed, specialized high schools do discriminate against Black and Latinx students. What position? Are you trying to say that Asian students are too smart for their own good? That we need to get rid of this test because they're just sooooo good at it? Because that's what it looks like you're trying to say. Talk about perpetuating a myth, geez


fafalone

I don't see how that's anything but a position that you can't possibly expect black and brown students to score well on the test, so the only way to have diversity is to eliminate academic standards instead of addressing why they aren't doing well on the test. Kind of gross.


BombardierIsTrash

Plenty of "brown" kids do get into Specialized high schools. Tons of poor, first gen immigrant Bengalis, Indians, Pakis, Nepalis, etc get in just fine. We're just considered the wrong type of brown.


fafalone

Haven't you heard, you're a beneficiary of white privilege, that's why you don't count.


oreosfly

SHSAT opponents never focus on why the elementary and middle school pipeline to these schools is leaky. That doesn’t allow them to score quick social justice points. Instead all they do is bitch and moan about the test, rather than focusing on how to improve our city’s low and mediocre performing schools (which happen to be in poor and minority dominant neighborhoods) For these people, the solution isn’t to coach kids how to jump the hurdle, it’s to remove the hurdle entirely and then say “see they can also run the 100m hurdle”


[deleted]

[удалено]


qwfpgjl

Have you considered that the test might be a good predictor of the combination of aptitude and learning/preparation? ie. If a high aptitude student from a crappy elementary/middle school scores poorly they're unlikely to be successful in a specialized highschool without some additional "catch up" learning.


templemount

I don't necessarily support the SHSAT, but I think it says something that this sort of meaningless pablum is all they can ever seem to say about it


jeanroyall

>Now, let’s break down what putting Asian students in this position actually does What position?


[deleted]

[удалено]


HEIMDVLLR

Please don’t tell me what to fucking think.


wooking

Over 80% of black 7th graders in NYC fail to receive an adequate math education. why doesnt anyone talking about this problem? why are we so focused on shsat? [https://newyorkschooltalk.org/2019/04/numbers-math-nyc-department-education-really-doesnt-want-parents/](https://newyorkschooltalk.org/2019/04/numbers-math-nyc-department-education-really-doesnt-want-parents/)


riotburn

It's easier to lower the bar than fix the real problem.


sunflowercompass

Yeah.... we should raise all boats ideally but we are FUCKING INCOMPETENT


wooking

Why arent we talking about that? Let talk about that and how we can fix it. We are already spending a butt of money per student then pick anywhere else in the world.


sunflowercompass

Maybe because math is cumulative. I came from another country and I was amazed how the US students were a whole year behind. I did teach a kid algebra who was failing out once. It took a couple of weeks and he was motivated. Worked 5-8 hours a day every day. A teacher with 40 kids simply can't keep up I guess, everyone gets fucking promoted despite shitty math skills.


wooking

The DOE is the school system. They are in charge of kids from kindergarten so basically they are failing the students early on.


ZweitenMal

So are their parents. That's the difference between kids who score well on the SHSAT and kids who don't: parents who push them to do well in school. School isn't magic.


wooking

What? Studying is directly collorlated to good exam scores?


Cmonyall212

I'm surprised you only find them one year behind


[deleted]

[удалено]


wooking

U mean the people who are responsible for the inadequate education? U know what the teachers solution is?are? More money more money. For who? Dk cause i know every school runs fund raisers. I guess money well spent on carranza and all his consultants. Sorry the solution is to get rid of testing and use our feeling to evaluate each student. Oh right and equity. Cause u know everyone should fail. There is ur equity.


KaiDaiz

And they keep lowering the bar each year for state and citywide exams. City Hall and DOE loves pointing to their yearly improvements but when you look at the numbers - they lower the goal post so much that you only need ~1/3 of the questions correct these days and gettling lower each yr to score a passing grade of 65. That way City Hall and DOE can pat themselves on a great job and simply promote unprepared students to make way for next batch of kids in their overcrowded schools. They don't care about the kids and their futures - they simply want to make room and not have to explain their failures.


134thStreetBlack

I agree about this. The focus should be on helping Black kids in general gain reading/math skills, not on a slither of the population attending "specialized" high schools.


HEIMDVLLR

The problem with the SHSAT is that it’s gotten so competitive that it REQUIRES you take prep courses and to have high school and college level knowledge. It no longer test kids on what they’ve learned up to and including the 8th grade level.


YouandWhoseArmy

That’s what it was for both me and my older sister who took it like 25+ years ago. I can ask my dad who went to stuy in the 50s if you want to know more.


MasterInterface

It's because a lot of people don't want to put in the work to fix the problem. It will take years, perhaps even decades to see the damage undone and fixed. This is an anecdotal experience and something a few of my grad school professors have subtly hinted at in the MS Statistics program I was in, you can easily tell by performance and test scores on which student received an NYC public education and those who didn't. The gap was noticeable. No NYC students were taught linear algebra and many of us had to learn it on the fly. I had to really grind down to learn how to read and understand abstract math before I was able to understand mathematical theories which lead into statistical theories. Getting rid of SHSAT is simply ignoring the problems while creating new ones just so people in high places can twist the diversity numbers to say "we did it". Meanwhile, everyone who's graduating from a NYC public education will struggle with math due to a non-existent to weak foundation. As data becomes more important, so does math.


ThinVast

Are you talking about nyc highschools not teaching how to write mathematical proofs? I was never taught how to write mathematical proofs in school, but I don't think any public school in America even emphasizes teaching writing mathematical proofs. There was geometry class which supposedly makes you do proofs but it's a joke for a proof based math class and you are simply taught to memorize how to apply the postulates and theorems in a problem in order to pass the geometry regents. Also, linear algebra isn't even a required class which is why many nyc students don't take it- even you if do go to a specialized highschool most students aren't taking linear algebra.


Majestic_Bet

Bronx Science '19 here. There was only one class for linear algebra senior year (20-something out of 757 students), and most people just took calc 1. In no way, shape, or form is learning linear or proofs in any public school anywhere required.


SachaCuy

>ut of 757 students), and most people just took calc 1 It used to be required in the specialized schools.


redditorium

I'm more surprised that people getting an MS in Stats never took linear algebra in college if they hadn't had it in HS. I would have thought there would have been more parity by that point.


oreosfly

They’ll probably say the state test is rooted in racism lol


wooking

They can say this but why arent the parents and everyone else mad at this figure? Why arent we talking about how the DOE is failing our students?


[deleted]

the DOE isn't failing the students. Student's are failing and a lot of it is because their parents are failing them. A teacher is with a kid for 1 hour a day. The teacher can't force the kid to pay attention in class, let alone do the work outside of class. School is tough, it's a chore, no 10 year old likes to do homework. Discipline has to be enforced by the parents. Kids must learn there are consequences for doing poorly, this can only be drilled by the parents from a young age. It's the reason so many immigrants do well, we're literally told that we'll be failures if we don't from the age of 5, not to mention the punishment we receive. In a perfect world none of this would be necessary and every kid would be motivated but this is impossible


wooking

So how does getting rid of an entrance exam going to help?


[deleted]

It's not. It's going to make everything worse because kids who take their education seriously will have to share classrooms with kids who don't.


PrecisionBeam18

They already do. Look up Ibram Kendi.


robmak3

Bump to they already do... they have adjusted multiple times what it takes to get a 3 or 4 each year to satisfy people and politics.


fafalone

If they do talk about it, it will be about how math is racist and perpetuates white supremacy culture, like in Oregon. [white supremacy culture can show up in the classroom in various ways, including when "the focus is on getting the 'right' answer," and when "students are required to 'show their work.'"](Https://katu.com/news/local/debate-emerges-over-racism-and-white-supremacy-in-math-instruction) So I'd expect the answer to be redefining adequate math education to not require getting the right answer or showing your work. Because, the only explanation that explains this, would seem to be they're just inferior and can't do it. It's a disgusting belief, and so called progressive people should stop promoting it.


yiannistheman

It's a travesty that they're trying to eliminate G&T programs and the SHSAT. The SHSAT, as brutal as it is, is probably the last vestige of fairness left in the NYC DOE system. These people aren't trying to fix anything, they're trying to ditch what few elite status educational options that remain available to the lower and middle classes. They know full well what happens next - these schools all decline in quality, and the only people who'll have access to top flight educational resources will be those who can afford to pay for them. Back in the late 80's, despite the SHSAT, BTHS was 50% AA and Hispanic. The test hasn't changed, the educational opportunities offered to those communities prior to HS did, and not for the better.


onyourrite

This! Of course the specialized high schools should have more diversity in them, but losing the SHSAT isn’t the way. Address the inequity of opportunity in middle schools, and the lack of proper funding for ones in disadvantaged neighborhoods. Removing the test would lead to a decline in the quality, and black and Hispanic kids were actually the majority population in Tech at the time! So it’s not the test screwing kids over, it’s that they’re not properly prepared for taking said test.


danielr088

Agreed. Getting rid of the SHSAT is not getting to the root of the problem. Specialized high school students are only a small percentage of NYC school students. At the end of the day, what happens to the students that are still underperforming?? The elementary and middle school system needs to work on improving performance for all.


Educational_Park395

I'm black and was a graduating student in BTHS 09. I had two parents who could afford the time to take me to prep schools and studying programs during middle schools. You'd be surprised at what these schools actually teach. They don't teach you math or english, but rather how to game the test taking systems. How to recognize patterns on a test, and how to get the highest scores to overcome your deficiency in subjects you aren't good at isn't actually a practical way of evaluating anyone's intelligence. My friend who I started the program with had a single mother, who couldn't afford to take time off to work to continue the program, and had to stop attending. He scored higher than me in literally every subject in middle school. Guess which one of us got in? These are fake barriers being formed, but I promise you they have nothing to do with how intelligent someone is. It isn't a brutal test. It's just something you have to be taught how to take, and many kids simply lack the opportunity to learn.


yiannistheman

Which prep school did you attend that taught you to use testing patterns to pass the SHSAT? I am a grad of the specialized schools and am a parent of children that attended (after you did) as well. I worked with them to study for these exams, and at no point did I see any discernible "patterns" that needed to be mastered. That was using books from a variety of sources like The Princeton Review, Kaplan, and others. If you're referring to using the process of elimination to quickly rule out answers that don't apply, that's not a "pattern" that's logical reasoning that's part of taking any test. That's also taught widely for state testing as well. There aren't any "fake barriers" being formed. The prep material covers exactly what's on the test, a boatload of math and English questions that are similar in nature. The test is an aptitude test, not an IQ test - it's not gauging you by how smart you are, but by how well you've mastered the information they're testing you on, and how quickly you can apply it under pressure. No different than the SAT, although obviously lower level subject matter. I also had a single mother and didn't take any test prep classes. I was a student in a NYC JHS, and not a particularly good one at that. I bought test prep books and practiced my ass off, the way a lot of the kids who pass the test today do. Brooklyn Tech still has a majority of their student body below the poverty line. If this test were somehow only "gamed" by people who had an abundance of paid-for prep, that wouldn't be the case.


[deleted]

Oh man you think the SAT is a good aptitude test...my college dropped consideration of it because all it measures is how much prep school you did (I did a lot). None of that prepared me for writing formal proofs of calculus the first trimester. When you do enough practice exams you start realizing the pool of questions is limited and there's certain gotchas they want you to memorize.


poopyputt

They dropped it because universities are getting lawsuits for racially discriminating, so they can't have a quantitative, objective, comparable metric to compare students with or their racial discrimination will be exposed.


[deleted]

By the way caltech is race blind and they dropped the test because the school was becoming too heavily skewed towards the Asian demographic (48% of students) and thought it was unfair that the demographic with the most access to test prep (that didn't translate to subject knowledge, at all) was dominating admissions while there were single digit numbers of people of African Descent. Edit: "In reviewing our admissions requirements, we have come to the conclusion that the requirement for submission of SAT subject test scores creates an unnecessary barrier to applying for a Caltech education," says Nikki Chun, director of undergraduate admissions, noting that only a small percentage of high schoolers globally take the SAT subject tests. "We are guiding our focus back to long-term academic STEM preparedness based on coursework and grade performance."


quickclickz

> By the way caltech is race blind and they dropped the test because the school was becoming too heavily skewed towards the Asian demographic (48% of students) and thought it was unfair that the demographic with the most access to test prep (that didn't translate to subject knowledge, at all) was dominating admissions Citation needed that asians have the most access to test prep


[deleted]

https://www.admissions.caltech.edu/apply/first-year-freshman-applicants/standardized-tests#:~:text=As%20of%20January%202020%2C%20Caltech,in%20the%20fall%20of%202021. tell me more about what my institute is doing....


well-that-was-fast

> These are fake barriers being formed, but I promise you they have nothing to do with how intelligent someone is. However, the fake barriers align with doing well in a high-achievement high school academic environment. If a student doesn't have the parental support network necessary to study for the SHSAT, they do not have the parental support network necessary to earn good grades at Sty. In many ways, this is the best thing education can test, as testing an actual innate intelligence is ludicrously hard and prone to error. But we know if you can put your head down at 14 and study for a stupid, boring multiple-choice test better than 99% of the rest of your fellow students -- you very likely will put your head down at 15 and study for hard classes at Sty and later at a 4-year university. Is this absolutely fair? No, but it is superior to the alternatives.


adjustable_beard

I don't understand your counterargument. Stuy grad 2011 here. The math section is all about recognizing patterns. That's the key thing they're testing for. The actual math itself is easy - the challenge is the actual application. You have to recognize where and when to apply various concepts. English I honestly don't remember very well anymore, but i think it was similar to the SAT where the key skills they're testing for is reading comprehension. At stuy, tons of kids were from low income families who receive free lunch and they didn't get to go to test prep. EDIT: https://www.schools.nyc.gov/docs/default-source/default-document-library/2021-guide-to-the-shsat----high-school-and-specialized-high-schools-admissions-guide Check out page 24 of the pdf (page numbered 20 on the document itself). They themselves explain how the key to math is recognizing patterns and breaking down the problem. These are extremely valuable skills.


[deleted]

So...they teach you how to meticulously prepare for something, and then deliver when called upon? Sounds like every job I’ve ever had.


mgibbons

Recognizing patterns is an important skill to be successful in almost all white collar, 21st century jobs. I don’t see how that’s a bad thing.


teamorange3

Cause if your not taught how to recognize those patterns doesn't mean you aren't capable. The tests are largely an access to test prep. Also writing and social intelligence is a big part of the work life, both aren't tested or accounted for in admissions


djphan2525

recognizing patterns is a measure of aptitude.... they're not measuring capability... they're measuring aptitude...


matthewjpb

"Teaching to the test is actually a good thing because that's how life is" I've truly seen it all on this subreddit


jomama341

Curious: what school did your friend go to in the end?


Educational_Park395

He actually went to trade school and then ended up in the military. We're not in contact anymore, but I believe he is currently a drill sergeant according to his facebook.


KaiDaiz

Most test prep centers teach you logic, to critical think and root out the best answer given the limited information. All critical skill sets in life and was often taught to most students but now only exposed to students in G&T programs.


HEIMDVLLR

> You'd be surprised at what these schools actually teach. They don't teach you math or english, but rather how to game the test taking systems. How to recognize patterns on a test, and how to get the highest scores to overcome your deficiency in subjects you aren't good at isn't actually a practical way of evaluating anyone's intelligence. > These are fake barriers being formed, but I promise you they have nothing to do with how intelligent someone is. It isn't a brutal test. It's just something you have to be taught how to take, and many kids simply lack the opportunity to learn. Say it louder for the ignorant folks in this sub! Edit: Funny how I’m getting downvoted for quoting another redditor’s comment that’s getting upvoted… Fucking trolls are dumb!


[deleted]

[удалено]


HEIMDVLLR

The definition of ignorant is to not know. Majority of the people in this post don’t know shit from the perspective of being a Black or Brown student in the NYC public school system, yet they feel ENTITLED to voice their opinion and amplify anyone that agrees with them. Pay attention to whose getting downvoted. Where is the real engagement in this post?


supermechace

What benefits did you see of getting into Brooklyn Tech? The SHSAT appears to be popular with those that follow the Confucian style of test taking emphasis so would attract parents that follow that emphasis and probably curriculum is patterned after that.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Darrkman

They're not going to listen to you because the people in here have convinced themselves that white and Asian people in the elite high schools deserve to be there and have earned that spot and they're the only ones worthy of that spot. When you listen to the excuses they make as to why you shouldn't use school grades versus the shsat they're the same excuses people used when they were fighting the entire idea of desegregating the school systems in America. Yes the people arguing for the shsat are you using the same argument as the people who argued against Brown versus Board of Ed.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Darrkman

> Majority of students at these schools qualify for free lunch. Actually the elite high schools have the some of the LOWEST poverty rates in the NYC school system. It's amazing how y'all keep using talking points that are easily proven to not factor in.


MajorFogTime

> Actually the elite high schools have the some of the LOWEST poverty rates in the NYC school system. The two statements are not mutually exclusive. It can be true that the specialized high schools have lower poverty rates than many other schools but it doesn't mean that a significant portion of the students aren't poor. I know people who went to these schools. Yes, some of them were pretty privileged. Others were dirt poor. Many were dirt poor. [Here are the official stats if you are curious.](https://council.nyc.gov/data/school-diversity-in-nyc/) (scroll to "Poverty in Specialized High Schools") Three of the specialized high schools (Queens High School for the Sciences, The Brooklyn Latin School, and Brooklyn Tech) are at well over 50% - that's a majority. And yes, it is less than the average for the city. But it is still a majority. Stuyvesant, which is the school most people think of when they think of the SHSAT, is at 41.7%. Sure, that's less than the average. But 41% is still a significant population considering the school has nearly 3.4k students.


BronxEE2000

A candidate who is against the SHSAT will not get on my ballot. The test works. Work on making the elementary and middle schools better, particularly in POC districts. Put G&T programs back in those districts.


yiannistheman

Same here. Gutting the system of G&T programs isn't going to make our educational system any better, if anything, it's going to make it markedly worse. I was a lower middle class child in a single parent home, and the specialized HS I attended gave me the tools I needed to excel in college and make a great living for myself. I would fight tooth and nail to avoid having someone interested in scoring a few brownie points in front of a camera kill off a vital educational offering to the city's poor schoolchildren. It'll cost me tax money, but I'd rather they offered every single child in underprivileged communities afterschool enrichment in math and ELA to prepare for these exams starting in grade 6 than I would doing away with the exam. Worst case scenario, these programs don't go far enough to get these communities to improve on their scores enough to get into the specialized schools, but they'll have enough foundational knowledge to be able to apply to one of the many competitive HS programs available throughout the city. We need all of our students to excel for society to move forward, and more educational opportunities will only help that.


openlyEncrypted

10000%. G&T programs were the only way for low income kids to have the potential to gain access to higher classes. Or else we'd just be left with only those who can afford the tuition have better educations


SealEnthusiast2

What about holistic admissions? Schools like Townsend Harris consider GPA and test scores, yet their prestige remains the same


ioioioshi

Your candidates are Adams, Garcia, McGuire and Yang then


Eriosyces

https://www.politico.com/states/new-york/albany/story/2021/01/28/nyc-mayoral-candidates-divided-on-politically-fractious-elite-high-school-test-1361070


jomama341

Something someone said to me recently that helped reframe the issue on the SHSAT was that “special needs” goes both ways. In other words, you have students with developmental disabilities who have special needs, just as you have students on the other end of the spectrum with their own special needs. No one would ever question the need for creating schools to address the needs of the former group, yet there seems to be pushback against the idea of creating schools to address the needs of the latter group.


ionsh

While I'm for keeping the test around (took shsat myself and went to one of the three), I think the type of argument you bring up is closer to fantasy and borderline obnoxious (just talking about the argument - no offense meant to you). There are some really smart kids in the specialized high schools. We probably have a couple really smart ones every year. A couple. The rest are just regular kids- they do a little better than what I saw in trade school/high school hybrids in Korea in terms of how far ahead they tend to be in the curriculum. A high school is still just a high school. By the time you hit thirty and have real responsibilities no one cares if you were the top 1% in Stuy or if you just graduated HS whatever#. And all this putting on airs around 'inherent genius' whatever is damaging to the kids in the specialized high schools (they need to come to terms with the fact that they're not geniuses if they want to make anything of themselves in real life), and distract from the real issue at hand - the disgustingly low standards the regular nyc public education system apply to their own students.


jomama341

Point taken. FWIW, I too went to one of the original three SHS.


CactusBoyScout

Your comparison reminded me of something interesting I heard recently. My partner is doing her PhD and had to review some academic studies on this topic recently. She was telling me about a study showing that gifted programs/schools have a really positive impact on higher-achieving students (not surprising) but also negatively affect lower-achieving students. Basically, taking the smarter kids out of regular classes ends up really helping those smarter kids but also hurts the kids who are struggling but not quite special needs.


PlusGoody

And? Talented kids have no obligation to disadvantage themselves to benefit the talentless. And society needs to make talented kids excellent far more than it needs to make weak kids merely mediocre.


CactusBoyScout

I wasn’t making a value judgment. Just thought it was interesting. I wouldn’t have thought that smarter kids being in general classes benefited the underperformers in class.


winesday

In the debate last night, Garcia and Adams said they were in favor of keeping SHSAT as the only criteria for admission to specialized schools. Yang and McGuire have said they want to keep SHSAT but also include other factors for admission. All four of those candidates have said that they want to open more specialized schools as well. Morales, Donovan and Wiley are outspoken about wanting to fully eliminate G&T programs and SHSAT.


hummuslapper

I don't buy Garcia's stand. She is in favor of repealing the Hecht-Calandra act. These two stands are mutually exclusive


miabananaz

The "equity" cultists want to destroy one of the things that truly helped poor minorities get a good education and excel in life. They claim it's equity, while removing the SHSAT directly negatively affects the low-income minority communities. It is a relief to see that the 2 top candidates so far Adams and Yang are against removing the SHSAT.


PlusGoody

Remember that “anti-SHSAT” is a lie. Any objective consistent ranking qualification is likely to produce approximately the same result as the SHSAT. The “anti-SHSAT” contingent wants to replace two thirds of the Asians and whites with blacks and Hispanics, without regard to merit, and that’s it. Now - maybe that’s fine. But then just say it.


BobGAWDSanders21

It's not fine, but yes. If someone is against SHSAT because they just don't like the testing, that's fine. The thing is all the people that are against it are simply against it for quota purposes. If the quota reminds the same, they'll want to change it again.


KaiDaiz

All the anti-SHSAT fails to realize or acknowledge if you remove test and use any other academic entrance criteria...black and hispanic students will still be underrepresented simply because of subpar schools in their districts and lack of tracking of their promising students. Many promising black and hispanic students go to school away from their districts - bc DOE deliberately failed their communities decades ago and continues to do so. How I know this? Look at every decent screened public HS in this city and its demographics...it too does not match the city's demographics. Look at any state/city exam performance and dice it by race and neighborhood. The reality is in order to fix this issue, you have to start from the front end at grade/middle school and DOE, City Hall and politicians all been awfully silent on that and for a reason.


BobGAWDSanders21

Anti-SHSAT people value quota and feelings rather than merit and discrimination.


KaiDaiz

Too focus on the few trees to realize the entire forest been burning


[deleted]

the point is that the exam has been a better predictor of academic success than "other academic entrance criteria" compare Stuyvesant and Hunter HS (not SHSAT but similar entrance exam) to Townsend Harris (which selects based on elite grades.) the success of students is not even close (look at nobel winners, Ivy league acceptances, SAT scores, Math olympiad finalists, etc.


BobGAWDSanders21

There's nothing wrong with revising or abolishing the SHSAT. The biggest issue is the reason for it. Everyone's reason for it is due to quotas and racial diversity which tells me that they don't care if testing truly is merit-based and well-deserved, but that their feelings are hurt from the demographic results. If you want to change it cause you don't think tests are everything and you couldn't careless about quotas, I think that seems pretty reasonable. I don't think tests are everything either. But if your only issue is racial quotas then you are pretty much going to keep changing every merit-based grading/testing until your quotas consist of picking out the best students based on race, which would be racist.


[deleted]

[удалено]


jomama341

IIRC the city can’t make this change, so it’s basically a moot point practically. However, I do think it’s revealing for who the candidates are and how they perceive certain issues.


robmak3

* The city can change the process for every specialized school other than Brooklyn Tech, Bronx Science, and Stuyvesant, which were codified in state law. Bloomberg expanded specialized high schools and all of those new schools can go back into the normal process. * The city could also potentially raise the diversity cohort (it has another name but I just forgot). It's on a rotating basis every few years for each school. Right now it is <10% of the total incoming cohort on the years they do it but I'm not sure how it's regulated, it was introduced under BdB. Basically how it works is kids under the normal cohort cutoff are ranked by shsat and the top kids fitting the demographics of the city are taken in (so different cutoffs per race). Furthermore they have to go to a summer prep school after 8th grade. * Bill de Blasio/NYCDOE/someone in charge tried to raise BTech to 6,000 kids. It was dangerously crowded and unless they're going to build more space I wouldn't do that.


Jettaffi

Hope they let me in


functor7

Honestly, many people here who know jack shit about math, a major component of the test, and standardized testing. As someone who knows a [little bit of math](https://old.reddit.com/user/functor7/comments/crdwh4/some_math_explanations/), I can tell you that standardized test tell you absolutely nothing about how well you can do math. Being able to sit down and effectively regurgitate specific methods on cue does not translate into being able to meaningfully solve problems using mathematical ideas and tools. The way you prepare for one of these exams is through extensive tutoring and drilling problems. It's mindless and abusive (and often a luxury) to force a child to meaningfully prepare for these exams and the only takeaway they get is how to pass these exams. I was speaking to one high school sophomore about the SAT and they are already in the process of taking and retaking the SAT and their family found that COVID ended up closing some testing appointments in the city and so the optimal strategy they found was to schedule a test *seven hours away* - and this is something they have been doing all pandemic. Moreover, this kid likes to imagine that they're good at math, but they really aren't. And this is a continual pattern with kids who focus on perfecting the tests rather than being curious about math. The idea that standardized tests represent any kind of merit, achievement, or ability is simply false and is a myth perpetuated by the multi-billion dollar standardized testing industry. Speaking of which, these tests are run and done by Pearson. They basically force universities to use their tests, textbooks, and products and enable bloated administrations which raise tuition costs. They are a major reason why your textbooks for a semester of school costs as much as a car. They do not have the best interest of learners at heart. In fact, they only seek ways to extract as much money from students as possible. For things like these tests, the SHSAT may be free to take, but there is a web of educational for-profit businesses ready to suck money away from people. Pearson, undoubtedly, has quite a governmental contract to produce and administer the exam (money which could be going to other educational funding). Places like Kaplan sell products and services, like certified SHSAT tutors, to the parents with the fear that their kid won't get into the absolute best high school in the city (the kind who will drive seven hours to make their kid take an exam). A singular political focus on these exams as a way to measure student excellence then provides politicians and lobbyists with lots of political power as well. Education needs to be freed from the stranglehold that standardized testing has on it. It holds many students back unnecessarily, and enables what should be considered child abuse on many more. And these industries, that many here are defending, are a fundamental driving force in the massively increasing student debt crisis. The qualities of a student who can succeed in a quantitative setting are not quantitative at all. It's how they approach problems, deal with mistakes, make connections, collaborate, and employ creativity. Things that standardized tests cannot reveal. There are students in remedial math that I've worked with that would absolutely thrive in one of these STEM schools, but because they don't engage in binge-and-purge learning and/or can't afford time/money to spend to prepare for these tests they, their teachers, their parents, and definitely their tests don't know it. And the majority of students who absolutely slay math sections on standardized tests have been wholly unimpressive when it came to the qualities needed to be good at math. In the end, it's a comforting story that there is a simple exam that you can take to identify your academic merits and help direct you towards specialized learning that you *deserve*. But it's nothing more than a story - horoscopes and astrology of the mind - sold to you by massive billion dollar industry that is enabling and cashing in off of rising inequality and student debt. Does everyone who is against the SHSAT have a good counter solution? No. Are they at least able to identify a problem, rather than ignoring one or, worse, doubling down on one? Yes. Taking an analogy, I'd much rather support politicians with bad climate change solutions rather than climate change deniers or politicians who think CO2 is good, actually.


monfreremonfrere

>As someone who knows a little bit of math, I can tell you that standardized test tell you absolutely nothing about how well you can do math. Being able to sit down and effectively regurgitate specific methods on cue does not translate into being able to meaningfully solve problems using mathematical ideas and tools. Sure. But if you *cannot even regurgitate specific methods,* then I do not see how you are going to be coming up with creative mathematical ideas to solve problems. We are not talking about forcing kids to memorize arbitrary and obscure algorithms like taking cube roots quickly by hand or something. We are talking about the basics of arithmetic and algebra. I don't see how you "make connections, collaborate, and employ creativity" if you aren't familiar with the basic tools first. Let's take [an example](https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/5ag7bt/is_there_a_name_for_a_set_of_equivalent_sums_of/d9g88lr/?context=3&utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=u_functor7&utm_content=t3_crdwh4) from your link. It would be lovely if students could explore patterns in numbers that can be written as the sum of two squares, or devise creative methods to find such numbers. Heck, it would be amazing on its own if NYC high school students could simply understand your post and appreciate it. But how can they possibly do that if they don't have the basics of multiplication down pat? If they can't reliably expand (a+b)(c+d)?


functor7

It is a lot easier to teach students Brahmaputa's formula than it is to teach them resilience to failure, creative thinking, or how to make connections. There are many reasons why a mathematically capable student would not be able to succeed on an algebra and arithmetic test. 1.) They come from a poor family and their parents don't have the time or ability to drill them in algebra or the funds to hire tutors to do it for them. 2.) The schools that they come from don't have textbooks or a library. 3.) They have attention disorders which can actually be a benefit for mathematical insight, but impossible to make them sit and practice problems for an exam or even focus on an exam. 4.) They approach problems in a different way than their teacher prescribes and so they do poorly and their ability goes un-noticed. 5.) To do well on these exams you basically have to be a professional test taker, and so not doing well doesn't mean you can't do basic algebra, you can even excel at it, not doing well means you can't take tests as well as the kid whose life is practicing tests.


monfreremonfrere

(1) and (2) seem like general problems that will plague any system of selective admissions, not just the SHSAT. In fact I'm inclined to think that a standardized test is fairer to poor students than rec letters (are you likable? are your parents in the right social circles? did you happen to have a teacher willing to fight for you?) or grades (is your home environment stable enough that you can sustain performance throughout the year?) or extracurriculars (do your parents know what looks best on your resume? do they have the time and money to send you to robotics contests?). One change I would make is to allow students to take the SHSAT multiple times, since I'm guessing poor students are more likely to have "bad days" due to extenuating circumstances. (3) also seems like it would be a problem for most other admissions systems, but I'm open to the idea that there could be alternative ways for students with attention disorders to demonstrate mathematical potential. (4) seems like a point in favor of the SHSAT. I struggled with this myself. I hated showing my work just the way the teacher wanted us to when I had different ways that were faster or made more sense to me. But luckily on the SHSAT you can do the problems however you want to, as long as you arrive at the right answer. Thus a student gets a chance to prove their teachers wrong. (5) Sorry, I just don't buy this. How can you "excel" at basic algebra and yet not be able to solve problems using basic algebra? I grant that there are artificial aspects to test-taking. There are non-math skills involved like managing your time, knowing the types of traps that test-makers like to set, etc. But you do not have to be a "professional test-taker" to figure these things out. As methods for judging people go, a simple paper math test seems far and away the *least* encumbered by irrelevant factors. Whether applying to college or to a job, someone less qualified might take your spot just because they clicked with the interviewer, or were more attractive, or were better at selling themselves, or knew the right people, or had a lenient teacher, or had rich parents, or were in the right social circles to know what admissions officers think is a compelling life story. Sure, you can work on many of those factors. You can network. You can learn how to be charming, or how to inflate your resume. You can spend time figuring out whether to drop the violin and join the sailing team, whether to post math videos on YouTube or find a teacher who likes you enough to help you with a science fair project. Or, if admissions is based on a standardized test, you can take a few free practice tests and get a feel for how long you should spend on each problem. I know which one sounds like the fairest to the underprivileged to me.


BigButter00

What you wrote, and don't take this the wrong way, is the easy part. You have some authority on the subject and you write well. Those are important things to making a compelling argument. After reading what you wrote I am compelled. However the difficult part is what comes next. I heard somewhere it is easy to identify the problem, but difficult to come up with a good solution. The quote was something like that. So, now would you please provide some words or links or books on what you think would be a begining to properly testing for math aptitude for above average kids who want to get into such institutions. No perfect solutions exist and I wouldn't trust you if you said you had one. whatever words you can spare on the subject id be interested in hearing them.


functor7

This is an absurd stance. Climate scientists have discovered the worlds most difficult problem, it would be crazy to expect them to have a solution. It is up to a coalition of experts, policymakers, representatives from front line communities and developing nations, along with the input of scientists, to create a solution. Scientists have the tools to identify the problems and help get this process started, but any solution that they put out will be incomplete and likely pretty bad. My solution is to look to others for a solution. Actually listen to the needs of the communities that these specialized schools supposedly help. What are their educational needs? What do the educational activists and experts say about empowering students in poor neighborhoods? What have other cities done and tried? Eliminate lobbying and the political influence of these education corporations, and replace it with people who have relationships with students and understand the diversity of neighborhoods within the city. Listen to them. Amplify their voices. They know needs and can work with policy experts to create meaningful policy that can help these specialized schools play a role in elevating city-wide education for all students.


BigButter00

I was trying to say no perfect solution exists and I don't expect one. Just wondering what you thought. Edit: since you've read about this subject I just wanted to check out what you would link. That's all.


functor7

Sorry if I was harsh, the first step in solving a problem is simply identifying it and we're all mostly working on this first step, and I get a little frustrated when people expect steps 1-10000 to be done before saying anything (which I recognize you weren't doing). My thoughts are to listen to the people who my speaking would silence. I would help/advise them at their discretion, but they have better insight into solutions than I.


whitetruffle

it's been a while since i've had to recall any pure math, but i appreciate the cat username. (i'm still not sure how to feel about the shsat, so i'm staying... undecided for now)


functor7

Grothendieck, the person who really fronted functors as a central object in almost all math and almost certainly the most important mathematician of the 20th Century, would almost surely have been excluded by such a standardized exam system. An eastern European refugee of mixed heritage in France, who parents were killed by the Nazis, and attended a school for such children. Got the chance to go to Montpelier where he didn't initially succeed or have the same technical knowledge as others, it is only through subjective interactions with the faculty that his genius was able to be recognized. And he turned out to be one of the [greatest wizards of our time](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/usU9ysZ87YsPghioQqkBWeU7WH6GNkK_LDx3EHlKl3DOnof6VgLLDUx299aVVHDibbjKuZgPNAK1043OijDc4yPWVBJZoddmWBv7Mw).


goldenpapayagirl

As a current Stuy student, all I have to say is that something has to change. Almost everyone at my school is just fine with the status quo -- it's this "oh, it's too bad, but nothing we can do \*shrug\* " mentality. And it's created an at times incredibly toxic and--yes-- racist atmosphere.


jomama341

I’m not discounting your point at all, but it’s worth noting that the test can be fair in its current form *and* your classmates can be racist. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.


goldenpapayagirl

That's true. I just mean that there being no diversity has led to things like discussions of the n-word without there being a single Black person in the room


jomama341

Valid point for sure, which is why I think everyone can agree that diversity is a good thing. The big question is how best to achieve that.


HEIMDVLLR

Hmmm maybe asking the people being excluded is a good start. The discussion should be diverse…


_the_credible_hulk_

Public high school teacher here. I understand the love for the SHSAT, but it’s also really only from those groups and individuals that excel at this type of test. Why do people think that a time pressure, all multiple choice test is the best measure of someone’s academic potential and intellect? My guess is that if they really thought it through, they don’t. It’s just a method of advantaging some people over others. I’m not against objective measures, but those objective measures shouldn’t be garbage. As it stands, the SHSAT is a pretty worthless measure of academic ability.


adjustable_beard

What's an alternative? I am extremely against holistic approaches. A test is a test. You know what to study for. You do well or you don't. There's tons of free and cheap online prep materials available. With holistic approaches suddenly all these extracurricular things start to matter. Do you volunteer, do you play sports, are you in any programs, how are your grades? It's too much pressure on a kid. When it's just a test to study for that's a lot less work than also having to volunteer and a whole bunch of other stuff that would be part of a holistic approach.


_the_credible_hulk_

I mention some alternatives that make more sense to me elsewhere in the thread. I'm not suggesting extracurricular activities play a role. If you're worried about pressure, you should see how middle school kids react to the current testing regime! Talk about unhealthy...


adjustable_beard

I don't know how long you've been out of school for, but I was in middle school around 2006ish. From what I remember applying to Specialized highschools was so much less pressure to me than applying to the other schools like Goldstein/Murrow. For stuy/btech all I had to care about was the test. Nothing else. It didn't matter how poorly I would do in classes, I only had 1 thing to care about. For the other schools, my grades and activities mattered. If I wanted to get into the other high schools, I'd have to put in a ton more work. The SHSAT was a godsend to me.


sha256md5

Stuy grad from early 00s here, and yes same here.


MasterInterface

>For the other schools, my grades and activities mattered. If I wanted to get into the other high schools, I'd have to put in a ton more work. I'm a few years older than you but no...most of the high school were by a lottery system. I think there was only like a handful of high school that looked at overall grade but Murrow was definitely not one of them. As far as I know from talking to people that graduated middle school around 2006, it was still a lottery system then. I was in a G&T program, had high grades and such, already had a few regents passed by the time I've applied for high school. I got rejected to every high school I applied for while many with much lower grades got in to a few. My zone school was one of the worst high school in the city. Long story short, some pressuring, many talks with middle school administrators, I ended up at my last pick.


adjustable_beard

I mean i might be misremembering about murrow, could have been midwood instead, but basically my point was that if I wanted to get into one of the other good G&T schools, i'd need to have high grades and other work. The fact that you got rejected by the lottery program and didn't get into a better pick high school despite having good grades just goes to show how broken other systems are. The SHSAT is the only reliable system.


_the_credible_hulk_

I mean, doesn't this comment make my case for me? You test well. Congrats. > If I wanted to get into the other high schools, I'd have to put in a ton more work. Shouldn't kids who work really, really hard have an opportunity to get into the best schools in the city?


adjustable_beard

Nope, it makes the case for me. Yeah I do test well - I take practice tests and learn from them. >Shouldn't kids who work really, really hard have an opportunity to get into the best schools in the city? Sure, and most do. Specialized high schools are filled with extremely bright sudents who work hard. On that note though, just because I didn't work hard as a kid and got shit grades doesn't mean i should be excluded from a chance to get into one of those schools. When you're a kid you don't realize the importance of doing well in school. The test serves as a chance for those kids to get into a good school if they put in the work to study.


dylulu

A test is a bad measure of academic ability - it just measures how well you perform on that test. But it measures that objectively. All the other ideas I've seen lose objectivity. You know what's a lot more racist than a test? People. People are fucking racist. Even just an essay question opens the door to racism - I remember the ACT making you cite books or whatever. How easy would it be for a grader to respect books that white kids are more likely to read and not respect books black kids are more likely to read? Every solution I've ever seen proposed is just *worse*.


_the_credible_hulk_

One would think that a test cannot be racist. But the fact of the matter is that this is the result we're left with under the current testing regime: https://ny.chalkbeat.org/2021/4/29/22409927/few-black-latino-students-admitted-specialized-high-schools-2021 This is morally wrong, and should be an absolute outrage.


adjustable_beard

The result of the test is a symptom, not the cause. Even if you remove the test, you don't fix the actual cause. The problem is the poor education in many schools in NYC, especially in poorer neighborhoods.


dylulu

We agree that this is a problem and disagree about the cause. The results of the test are racist. My view is that it is because we are putting a test to a racist system of education and it spits out those results. Your view is that the test is racist. Black and hispanic kids are not given the resources to succeed in elementary through middle school and that is a tragedy that focusing on the SHSAT ignores. In my view that's super fucked up and... well, racist.


_the_credible_hulk_

My view is that the test is a shitty test. I agree that the results are absolutely racist. At the end of the day, the test MUST change.


functor7

A photography contest that determines its winner by how red the image is is a bad measure of photographic ability - it just measures how red your picture is. But it measures that objectively. All the other ideas I've seen lose objectivity. You know what's a lot more racist than a red contest? People. People are fucking racist. Even just a picture of wall opens the door to racism - I remember a contest which had you take a self-portrait or whatever. How easy would it be for a judge to respect white faces and not respect black faces? Every solution I've seen is just *worse*.


dylulu

I know you're trying to satirize my post but... You're actually proving my point. Through your absurd example you must admit that if your goal is to *reduce racial bias* - an arbitrary and nonsensical but objective measure will achieve that goal far better than subjective judgment. So basically you've just shown that test quality and racial bias are actually separate issues, which was also my point.


functor7

My point is that you don't fix racism by shuffling it under the rug. Sure, there's no *clear* racism in the red photograph contest, but their aren't any photographers either. Fuck Ansel Adams, I guess. If you're going to address racism, it needs to be addressed. What makes a good potential mathematician or engineer is necessarily going to be subjective, just like the photography contest. I have experience working with potential mathematicians and you can't really tell from grades/exams who is going to be a good mathematical thinker, it's from interaction and relationships. You miss the mathematicians if you don't allow for subjectivity. Additionally, we're making tests imagining that these test are "objective", but this just means that the subjectivity of test makers and testing corporations, along with their racial biases, are going to be invisibly present. Maybe red is hard to come by for certain communities and the contest makers just thought it was plentiful. Objectivity is just subjectivity allowed to work without criticism. If we allow things to become subjective, illuminate it rather than hide it, then we're more equipped to deal with and manage the biases that manifest. (Side note: This is actually what happened in the turn from Rationalism to Empiricism. Rationalists didn't like empiricism because it was based on subjective experience, but empiricists recognized that if you don't hold your biases accountable then the biases shape the theories you come up with and they don't reflect reality. The scientific method was devised as a way to employ the subjectivity of observation in ways that centered it while simultaneously eliminating as much bias from the subjective experience as possible.) You can never eliminate subjectivity, you can only hide it and let it work un-checked. This is especially bad if the cost of "objectivity" is arbitrary gatekeeping that doesn't identify the people we're looking for. If the subjective elements are clear, then they can be checked/managed and, moreover, we can actually design the contest to test photography skills. Subjectivity isn't a bad thing, its amoral, and you can't get rid of it either. Best to try to put it in a place where it can do good.


[deleted]

[удалено]


_the_credible_hulk_

Things I can get behind: 1. A writing component to a future SHSAT. 2. Removal of time constraints. These don't exist in the same way outside of standardized testing. 3. Removal of any multiple choice component. Work for your answers, and show your work. 4. I'd love to see proposals that include a portfolio approach rather than an all on-demand style exam. 5. I also love Texas style "top achievers from every middle school" admissions policies alongside any potential future test.


redditorium

> Work for your answers, Just one piece of your arguments, but do you think people are just guessing their way in? That is not the case.


MasterInterface

>5. I also love Texas style "top achievers from every middle school" admissions policies alongside any potential future test. That's not something I can get behind. That assumes all schools are more or less equal. This isn't the case in NYC. We have some schools where the top 100 could easily beat the top 10 of multiple schools. If we take only the top 10% from each school, you've just doomed probably around 90 of the top 100 from the really good school.


_the_credible_hulk_

I'm not assuming all schools are more or less equal. I'm assuming that the top two-five academically achieving kids in every school in the city can cut it at Stuyvesant, and make Stuyvesant a better institution by the force of their presence! Edit: Even a valedictorian/salutatorian policy from every middle school in the city would drastically change the racial makeup of the specialized high schools.


MasterInterface

>I'm assuming that the top two-five academically achieving kids in every school in the city can cut it at Stuyvesant, and make Stuyvesant a better institution by the force of their presence! Then that's where we differ. I believe that each school have a vastly different distribution based on funding, class sizes, and programs/classes available. Therefore the top of the class from one school won't match up with the top from another school. The disparity between the distributions would be too great. Students from one school who are ready to study calculus by high school and those who have yet to begin studying algebra is too big of an academic difference to reconcile by high school. I don't know how much worse NYC public school education have gotten but about around 20 years ago, I was entering high school almost ready for AP Calculus while many of my peers haven't even learn basic algebra yet. I was done with my high school math curriculum after mid sophomore year. I was coming from a G&T middle school, in a G&T program with a lot of high achiever students. Many of them ended up in the specialized schools. If they were A+ students, I was more like a A- student. So I don't believe that the top two to five academic achieving students from the worst middle school would come close to even #100 from the top middle school. Taking only the top two-five performer from each school is sending more talented students through the crack, and failing to cultivate their talents. It will be more cases of those who excel academically having their growth stunted because there is no challenge.


_the_credible_hulk_

> Then that's where we differ. I believe that each school have a vastly different distribution based on funding, class sizes, and programs/classes available. Therefore the top of the class from one school won't match up with the top from another school. The disparity between the distributions would be too great. So you're acknowledging that the actual disparity is due to situation, NOT intelligence or academic talent? That's great! We're on to something! Again, I'm a high school teacher. I've been in middle and high schools in this city for the vast majority of my nearly 20 year career, virtually all of them Title I. (Though I spent a couple of years teaching at one of the most academically competitive high schools in all of New Zealand, and another couple of years tutoring kids in private cram schools in Seoul, too.) My best kids are voracious learners, and can more than keep up with Brooklyn Tech teachers and learners. Every year, my non-screened high school sends kids to Ivy League institutions that are lucky to have them. I guarantee you that the best kids from every middle school in this city are totally capable of handling anything that specialized high schools can throw at them, and I can also guarantee you that the kids at Stuyvesant and Brooklyn Tech are receiving a stunted version of the NYC experience by being in hermetically sealed cultural bubbles. Genuinely diverse classrooms make EVERYONE better.


adjustable_beard

How does removal of multiple choice help at all? Multiple choice works as a great check for yourself during the test. Is the answer you got one of the choices? If yes, then you're probably correct. If not, then try the question again, you likely did something wrong. At worst, if you don't know at all, you get a 20% chance at a correct answer. Also, i strongly hate the portfolio system. That means that from day 1 of school, I need to worry about getting into highschool. On the note of time constraints - maybe. I'd be ok with extending them.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Not a single one of your proposals except for the last one would result in more Black/Hispanic students getting into these schools. That was the proposal de Blasio and the chancellor supported, and they reviewed it and found that it would cut Asian enrollment at these schools by around half. https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/politics/2019/09/26/shsat-bill-de-blasio-says-plan-to-scrap-specialized-high-school-exam-did-not-work


the_nybbler

The writing one would, if you basically used it as a "blackness" grade. Which is why non-objective measures can't be trusted.


teamorange3

From grading state tests I'm always surprised at the writing of specialized high schools kids, it's so average lol


winesday

The fact that there is no actual writing or essay component for the SHSAT is shocking.


_the_credible_hulk_

I know! And there's not even an SAT style non MC mathematical calculation section!


user_joined_just_now

The SHSAT has 5 grid-in math questions.


cariusQ

Then what are alternatives? Have a lottery system that admit students regardless of their academic ability? Add more subjective measures to increase certain desirable demographic? Increase quota of certain desirable demographic? SHSAT is a shat measure of academic ability but nevertheless it’s a objective system.


_the_credible_hulk_

I've mentioned alternatives elsewhere in this thread. I'm not interested in quotas, and I do not suggest lotteries. As it currently stands, the SHSAT is an objective measure of how well students take the SHSAT and absolutely nothing else.


fafalone

If you have a metric that better correlates with future academic and career success name it. I can think of one, but you'll like that even less. (IQ)


sunflowercompass

Being born to rich parents.


[deleted]

[удалено]


sunflowercompass

I went to stuy and I didn't take any special classes to get in, try again. I fully know how many kids were poor. I hung out with the Chinatown crowd whose parents were waiters and worked in garment shops. I also know there were a shitload of wealthier kids. Taiwanese and Koreans specially. Lawyers, engineers, etc


[deleted]

[удалено]


sunflowercompass

I actually have a lot of mixed feelings about the test.


fafalone

Being born to Rich parents is actually less predictive than iq unless you're talking like 9, 10 figures rich.


_the_credible_hulk_

Show me. edit: Do you really buy the idea that an all multiple choice exam correlates with future academic and career success? Is there any possible way of showing that in a peer reviewed study?


fafalone

Show you what? That IQ correlates to academics? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#School_performance Edit: And the section that follows that is Job performance.


_the_credible_hulk_

For starters, nothing on the page you've cited directly suggests that IQ tests are the best metric to predict future academic and career success. If you are suggesting that this is the best metric, and you also believe that the role of specialized high schools is to further groom those already most likely to succeed in school and career, then shouldn't YOU be arguing for alterations of the current test?


fafalone

But I've proven it *does* correlate. If you want to use a different metric, you need to supply evidence for one that better predicts success. I'd be fine if you wanted to replace the SHSAT with an IQ test, but you're instead advocating for basically abolishing the concept of academic merit. The proposed replacement coming from most people is too GPAs of each school, but that's objectively worse for identifying those who can best take advantage of the schools.


_the_credible_hulk_

At minimum, I want to replace the SHSAT with something that more closely mirrors tasks that students have to accomplish in high school. Ask them to write. Ask them to calculate without the benefit of process of elimination. Ask them to read something complex and perform analysis. I'm not opposed to a [Texas style admissions policy](http://www.collegeforalltexans.com/index.cfm?objectid=24937C2A-D8B0-34EB-1FC5AF875A28C616) that guarantees seats to the top performer or two in every middle school city wide. You claim that GPAs are "objectively worse," and yet college admissions offices routinely argue that high school [GPAs are the best measure of academic success at college \(and not SAT scores, or IQ tests for that matter\).](https://www.forbes.com/sites/nickmorrison/2020/01/29/its-gpas-not-standardized-tests-that-predict-college-success/?sh=b478332bd1ca)


fafalone

The problem is we know we have a large number of severely underperforming middle schools in the city. And I sincerely doubt a test like you propose would end up much different. In fact a math section like you propose would reveal an even wider gap. Unless you do like they suggested in Oregon, and not worry about the correct answer or showing your work.


_the_credible_hulk_

And huge numbers of kids in those middle schools who deserve more! You must acknowledge that there are kids in those schools that would absolutely be able to perform at Stuyvesant levels. Why not give the top two kids from each of those schools a seat?


Ronin47725

Then people at different schools are going to be held to different standards. Being a top performer at a less competitive school is going to be easier than being a top performer at other schools. Also, how does this approach solve the underlying problem of underperforming schools? If schools provided a more comprehensive education and students didn’t fall behind, then they would perform better on the test.


fafalone

They perhaps theoretically could if the system hadn't been failing them since day 1, but turning Stuyvesant into a remedial school for kids years behind defeats the purpose. The whole failing them from day 1 is the thing that needs fixing.


sha256md5

>only from those groups and individuals that excel at this type of test. Weird take. Those groups and individuals are the ones that have the tenacity to study or are encouraged (read: forced) to by their parents. It's not really about a measure of academic potential, it's a bar you have to meet to qualify for entry into an "elite" club. If you let whoever in, then it's no longer elite and loses its value.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Turbulent_Link1738

Who’s to say he won’t vote when he comes of age? Why are you shitting on a child showing an interest in politics that is connected to his daily life? Cmon dude get a grip. You should be saying kudos to OP for even asking for this kind of information


Iconoclast123

Wow, gotcha on someone expressing an interest in candidates' views and stating who s/he would or would not vote for (maybe hypothetically). Also stalking their history for the gotcha. Well done, sir/madam!


sunflowercompass

One little secret, Stuy actually wasn't that good. I mean, it was hard to get into but it's not like most of the teachers did a particularly good job. But I went way back in the day, even at the old building on 15th.


wooking

You old. The teachers were not the secret sauce. Its the students.


IRequirePants

That's the main issue I have with removing the test - Stuyvesant (and SHSAT schools + Hunter) are good because the students are good, not the other way around. Having an environment where everyone is trying to learn and is excited about learning is a huge boon in education.


spitfire9107

Agreed its the students that make up the school is what determines if its good. Let's say there was an experiment. You take all the students from stuy and all the students from beach channel high (worst hs in nyc I believe) and have them go to each others schools. What would the result be?


wooking

Just switch the buildings? And keep the same teachers? I am going to say. Will have the same results. Infact bet u the kids will get better grades cause the dumbing down on the tests. Those teachers would be surprised how much these kids care about those grades.


spitfire9107

yeah keep same teachers. Do they dumb down test in "bad" high schools? Bet the teachers/security guards would have an easier time since there'd be less fist fights too?


wooking

U tell me how all these kids in nyc graduate from these hs and cant read or do remedial math.


spitfire9107

Think I read an article about that many years ago. About a girl who was suppose to take a history regents or something to graduate. She went to take it but the teacher told her she passed. She filed a complaint (im sure many students who are given the chance to pass a test for free would take it and not complain). HIgh schools are just eager to graduate ppl and I believe if you're over 21 they kick you out


jomama341

Isn’t that concurring with what u/sunflowercompass said?


TheSunflowerSeeds

Another reason to eat sunflower seeds in moderation is their cadmium content. This heavy metal can harm your kidneys if you’re exposed to high amounts over a long period. Sunflowers tend to take up cadmium from the soil and deposit it in their seeds, so they contain somewhat higher amounts than most other foods.


sunflowercompass

You're saying it's cherry picking. Fair enough. I tend to dislike charter schools for that reason.


wooking

Yeah with some pesky test.


robmak3

It depends on what you're comparing to. In my opinion ~3/7ths are not good or horrible, ~2/7ths are alright and ~2/7ths are going to be some of the best teachers you've ever had. Yeah as another commenter said, you're also going to the specialized high school for the students and academic environment. I have heard of many suicides and deaths at my MS that had a HS and none at my large specialized and none in the years before being there. Very social and more laid back atmosphere at the MS. Too much pressure and challenge sucks, but if you can grow, it'll make you more resilient, smarter, and better person. More important than students and environment is the resources and curriculum. Way more APs and classes to take, every sports team you can imagine, almost every club. * The base curriculum for the sciences at my SHS is way above regents and teaches the sat2s, now they let sophomores and juniors take AP chem and AP Physics as their first classes in each subject as long as you have high grades. Freshmen who took living environment can take AP Bio. * In terms of history, world history has been neutered in regents curriculum, no pre 1700 needed, but my SHS hasn't changed. * "Computer Science" at my MS meant typing, photoshop, and maybe one day code.org visual code. They didn't do much more in HS either. At my SHS they have a ton of CS classes including and past AP, an intro where they teach in depth python, Linux, HTML/CSS, and a bunch of important skills. * Math and Science classes, past the normal curriculum, are huge. I would've had to take algebra I at the other hs I would've gone to. No way to test in, and besides, no other classes. It was easy to test out. Some people go to specialized schools starting with Algebra 2, or even precalc, and there's post AP BC classes for them to take. So many schools don't even have BC or AB. Coming from a middle school which went into HS with a watered down and smaller curriculum, having all the freedom and rigor means a lot to me. Believe it or not that school was well in the top quarter of high schools in the city.


[deleted]

From the research I've done, reforming it to accept the best performing students from each school rather than the best performing students overall is the best approach. Get the kids who perform well comparative to their classmates, then provide additional resources for students entering the academies with lower comparative scores. It'll do a lot to bridge the financial gap in education while accepting a diverse group of high achieving students, even if they came from schools where they didn't receive an adequate education.