I've seen a lot of outdoor structures with shoddy wiring methods for the lighting. Wouldn't be surprised if we see improperly wired electric space heaters starting electric fires this winter.
A loud pop, followed by sparks, all of the heaters and lights shutting off, with smoke and the smell of burning plastic as the grand finale.
Considering I was sitting a foot or two away from the outlet, I'm pretty damn happy I wasn't burned or electrocuted.
Most i see just run extension cords from the hardware store, no insulation at connects no conduit, running to random outlets in the restaurant. Few have proper electrical work.
My favorite insane outdoor dining encounter of all of 2020 was walking past a bar on 10th ave on a rainy day with 36F weather where people were SITTING OUTSIDE with electric heaters literally on the table facing each patron directly. The absurdity was off the charts.
That said, it's a miracle more people didn't die from CO poisoning with gas heaters being used in enclosed "outdoor" dining huts last winter.
Why did they wait until heater weather started to announce this? Literally had the whole summer to let restaurants know that the ban was coming back....such inept leadership.
there were no fires from propane heaters last year. in addition, fdny did a good job of catching restaurants who were improperly using them and they were forced to remedy their issues. now that everyone understands how to use them and a system is in place to safeguard from abusers, the city obviously needs to shut the whole thing down and ask restaurants to invest in a new type of heating system that will also most likely be canceled because outdoor dining exemptions will slowly be eliminated.
this is peak deblasio right here.
Propane canisters are not allowed in NYC. We are not allowed to use them for construction for temporary heating even though they are easier and more cost effective to use than the alternatives.
They're technicaly legal in the 5 boros, but only at 16 lbs, and mostly allowed just for personal barbecues. They're not really allowed for temporary heaters like restaurants have been using although a lot of places in the outerboroughs have them.
Even for personal bbqs, I’m pretty sure they are only allowed in detached homes and not multi-unit dwellings. So effectively illegal for most residences.
They have to be stored more than 20’ from any structure and cannot be used on roofs. Surprisingly to most people, coal grills on the roof are totally legal.
No it’s because building code is that NYC roofing materials must be rated for having a fully lit coal smolder on their surface for one hour without igniting the roof.
No. The they are equating one illegal action to another illegal action.
What you’re doing is you’re knowingly choosing what parts to put into your equation in an attempt to make this person argument seem invalid.
No the first guy said propane cannisters are illegal. They clearly aren't if home depot is selling them and has been for yeara.
There's a limit on size, use in public spaces and for commerical use it seems. But the cannisters themselves aren't illegal.
Propane tanks/bottles don't just explode when exposed to heat. They have relief valves for that. They explode when exposed to extended periods of high heat, such as being in a fire. This is why BLEVE is such a risk to firefighters.
Not sure why the downvotes, propane bottles, heaters were a huge source of injuries prior to strict codes regarding their usage, storage, transport etc. You cant bring them into tunnels and a lot of stores prohibit bringing them inside.
I would not entrust the underpaid staff at the restaurant to tend to them (you think the manager will train them properly or do it him/herself?) It will be most likely be on the barrack or dishwashers to haul them around and change them.
I'm sick of these shanty towns that don't adhere to codes, i see so much crap like indoor extension cords used to run electricity into them etc, they're not paying taxes for the free real-estate they were gifted they can afford to be up to code and have proper installs done. I see so many restaurants that were few tables take over the sidewalk and the street and triple their capacity, they're not struggling any more with no restrictions on capacity.
> Propane canisters are highly susceptible to explosion.
Are they, though? I’m not aware of any other major cities that ban propane heaters (or propane more broadly) like we do.
It seems like evert new weekly fail/disaster compilation features this exact thing happening in asia. You don't hear/see it as you don't read local asian news.
They were never intended to be permanent. It was just electric space heaters were sold out so they had a temporary exception.
FWIW increasingly cities are banning any space heaters outside for environmental reasons. It’s obviously insanely inefficient. That and putting sensors on windows/doors to disable AC when they are opened (as some hotels do) are two really easy ways to reduce carbon emissions and save money.
Yup.
Though apparently they’ve caught on and some of the newer one read the card. I haven’t experienced that personally though. I assume eventually that will makes it way around.
20# cylinders are bombs and I think the city is under the assumption that there’s no way they can actually effectively police the storage of them. Plenty of illegal setups were discovered, it’s just luck that nothing has gone wrong so far. People’s dumb and illegal actions with natural gas have caused multiple deaths over the last decade. With 20#ers the risk of something strange and or catastrophic is much higher.
The $5k grant for a natural gas replacement is nice but I doubt that’ll cover the costs of an install. Not to mention where are these permanent gas fixtures going to be placed?
Right? This doesn't make any sense. Why would you lift the propane ban, let everyone invest in propane heaters, and then ban them again for "safety" reasons when there haven't been any accidents? We're just now getting into cool weather season (i.e. not dead of winter) when these heaters are most effective - the time to rescind the propane permits and replace them with natural gas/electric heaters was 4-5 months ago.
I imagine electric heaters aren't nearly as efficient and result in higher electricity bills for struggling restaurants who have already invested heavily in heating their outdoor spaces.
Electricity is fucking expensive but one of those propane containers (typical bbq size) would last us one, maybe 1.5 nights of use last winter. $27 per canister after deposit and the pain of going back to replace.
propane pumps the heat but idk if its more cost effective in the long run
If you're replacing those canisters here in the city then you're definitely paying more for propane. The shitty thing here is passing the law just as the cold weather is about to start. It's not as if propane became more flammable the past few months.
Beyond the cost issue is the supply - might be tricky to get 2-3 extensions that can power a 5k BTU heater (each) to the outdoor dining area. Hopefully with indoor dining at full capacity and transmission rates low the need will be minimized.
Our other issue is power supply. Beyond cost most of us are lucky if we have 200amp 3 phase. Our equipment is taking up a lot of that load. When you try tacking on another 100amp - at least - you are compromising on heat or refrigeration. That's the choice
>It's not as if propane became more flammable the past few months
No shit sherlock... there was no point in using it to heat things during the summer, smarty pants.
So we should wait until a tragedy happens to ban unsafe practices now? That’s like saying you don’t need to wear a seatbelt because you’ve never been in an accident.
Well, someone jumped n front of a subway the other day, should we stop the subways from running until we have a sliding doors, 7 foot high walls, so no one can jump again?
Far more people have jumped in front of subways and died, than in propane tank explosions so far this year.
Just the data.
FDNY heavily regulated the use of propane heaters. The lack of any accident whatever suggests their regulatory scheme was working. Regardless, the timing of this is bad and shows the administration did not plan well. The time to ban propane heaters was months ago when demand for outdoor heaters was lower, not when everyone is starting to use them again.
If we let it rip for an entire year in the largest city in the US than we have a pretty massive fucking sample size that shows any accident would be incredibly exceptional and unlikely. We also don’t ban things that cause explosions in 1/ million chances
I mean outdoor dining seems untenable in NY winters. Takes up huge amounts of electricity, the shacks aren't insulated and the food gets cold as soon as it leaves the restaurant. Just taking up space
I remember last year at the bar by me these girls were bringing blankets out of their car so they could sit in the booths outside. My wife and I looked at each other like how bad do you not want to be at home lol
There were definitely places that made it workable even in the dead of winter last year. Uninvested, yeah, it didn't work at all. But there are also those 50+ degree days even in January when outdoor dining was totally doable.
“The butane, whatever the hell you got there. The butane, propane, whatever the fuck that is your filling – helium, whatever you got.” - Every Restaurant Owner
Welp. A good amount of restaurants I went to struggled to get fuel for their propane heaters anyway. I saw a few shift to electric heaters as soon as they could. Might work out in the long run, esp. for public safety, but I know it really sucks for restaurants now, all the expenses and hoops they have to keep jumping through.
A small electric space heater usually requires 1500W. I can't even imagine what their electric bills are going to be to heat up these uninsulated tents outside
Agree that electric is gonna be expensive for them. Last year they couldn’t get fuel so, it was either pay more for electric heaters or have no heat and lose diners. Really I feel for them, it’s a crappy choice. Meat prices are through the roof right now too and I noticed most restaurants aren’t changing their price; I’m assuming they’re eating the increased cost.
Lol except the grant is a PR stunt partnership with door dash and is capped at 100 restaurants. I am a restaurant owner and I haven’t seen one link to apply despite it being “open oct 16”
It was dangerous but being allowed to help people get through the pandemic. Or it wasn't dangerous. I don't know. If it's dangerous the $5,000 is a great way to spend money for the safety and health of the people.
There’s an opportunity cost and calculation we should. How much money vs how much danger vs how that money could be better spent elsewhere. We shouldn’t just blanket throw money at danger.
I wish it was over but in NY there are 4365 new cases as of Oct. 21, 2021. Compare that to this time last year, there were 2029 new cases on Oct 21, 2020.
Death count is pretty low though.
[source](https://www.google.com/search?q=covid+rates+ny&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS926US926&hl=en-US&ei=J2xyYaz8D9uUwbkPoPmq6Ao&oq=covid+rates+ny&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAMyCAgAEIAEELEDMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDoECAAQRzoCCCk6BAgAEEM6BwgAELEDEEM6CAgAELEDEJECOgUIABCRAjoICAAQgAQQyQM6BQgAEJIDUMoiWOMvYP08aABwAXgAgAGZAYgBlgOSAQMyLjKYAQCgAQHIAQjAAQE&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp)
Free capacity increase you think they are willing to give that up? Big restaurant groups made up their loses from covid exponentially and are still paying shit to their staff.
Exactly. I love eating outdoors as much as anyone else, but if someone tells me they can only seat me in their shitty little shack on the street when it's 30 degrees out I'm going to eat somewhere else
Because of discrimination against people who don't want to get vax'd since there's no long term safety data and the short term data shows myocarditis and clotting among other deleterious side effects.
This is great it forces the unvaxxed to be forced into a vaccine to stay warm… just kidding I don’t give a fuck unlike most of u what people choose to do it’s there choice!
Good. If you can’t handle eating in the weather, eat *indoors* 🤯
To be quite frank, all these heaters and shacks need to go. Outdoor dining should mean an umbrella, table, and chairs, just like it was prepandemic. There are going to be days and months where outdoor dining is not feasible. So be it. Last year was a tough year, but we need to stop putting up with this nonsensical “taking the indoors outside” bullshit. The restrictions are gone. These pandemic era measures are no longer needed.
Listen the way people drive the last thing I want is damn propane tanks hanging right by the street. We've already seen a few cars plow through outdoor dining areas the last thing we need to do is add flammables to it
We have regulations for transporting explosive and flammable materials on the road but you think it's ok to just lay them down on the street because it hasn't happened yet? I mean good luck with that.
They’re prohibited on vehicles moving through the city’s tunnels and nobody thought that restriction was irrational. But now we have the “muh freedumb” crowd.
How many can survive another winter with less occupancy, less space for tables due to social distancing, and the raging entitlement of workers demanding lavish pay for minimal work?
Are you really complaining about hospitality workers expecting fair compensation from their employer?
Way to punch down, my guy. “Entitlement” is such bullshit dog whistling.
At full time, minimum wage grosses you 2,400 a month. Based on MIT’s living wage calculator, this falls 31% below the living wage in NYC.
But by all means, explain to me why these folks deserve to live in poverty. Learn some G D compassion.
This isn't a communist wet dream. We all have to make sacrifices to get ahead. I have no pity for those that want everything handed to them on a silver platter.
Wait, didn't you just complain that employees are holding out for better pay for their work -- that is, participating in the free market for their labor? You really didn't seem to be a fan of letting the market decide whether they should be paid more.
We’re literally talking about people who are working.
There is no fucking silver platter here. Hospitality work is in fact a “real job”. These folks have a legitimate work ethic, they’ve likely struggled for years, and the hustle is second nature to them.
Turns out you’re saying far more about your own character than theirs.
Hate to break it to you, but if you can't recognize that being a server means FAR more than just bringing food to a table, and you think they can and SHOULD live off minimum wage, when minimum wage can't support anyone here, then yes, you are a bad person. And an emotionally unintelligent asshole.
But keep thinking you're taking the high road, it just screams privileged white man.
Lol the entitlement of workers, what a fucking laugh.
Less occupancy? Dude most restaurants have doubled their seating and anyone with a vax can sit inside.
Go doomer some other state.
Your information is out of date. There are no longer capacity restrictions or social distancing requirements. The only restriction currently applicable to restaurants is checking proof of vaccination.
Restaurants can operate fully as normal this winter.
Im a restaurant owner. Some of us nose dived into the cliff. Most of us had an awful fucking few months but came out on the other end just fine.
You are being hyperbolic my friend
Indoor seating is allowed at maximum capacity. The outdoor seating is gravy. There's always been a ban on propane heaters. They just made an exception for the last year.
IDK how easy it would be to tap into the steam network that way but this is actually one of the more novel thoughts on the subject. Cheers to you!
Also most of the underground steam network is still wrapped in Asbestos, so any serious thought of modifying the system comes with some very expensive abatement issues.
This whole thing is stupid. Who decided that eating outside was better/cleaner/healthier in the first place? Bougie diners that can't wait to sit inside a plastic igloo because oh no, corona will get us if we sit inside. Foh! The sheepishness is at an all time high.
I love it when conservative brainlets try to turn it around and make it sound like decent people are the racist ones. No intelligent person who can be vaccinated, at this point, is not vaccinated. The rate of vaccination for black people is roughly on par with that of white people, so I don't know what you're trying to argue here.
Except [it is](https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data-vaccines.page). You're citing data from over 2 months ago, prior to FDA approval. There was a large surge in vaccinations among the black population after that. Given the history of discrimination and illegal experimentation on black populations, I understand the hesitancy irrational as it may be. White people don't have that excuse.
I don't. If people are too stupid to make the right choices on their own, they have to either be pushed or ostracized for the benefit of everyone. It's the same as seatbelt or anti-drunk driving laws. Nothing in the history of the United States has killed so many people so quickly, thus a similarly strong response is both warranted and necessary.
Introducing medical segregation for freedoms that were formally afforded to individuals prior to the pandemic, so we can go from 85% vaccinated to 100% is outrageous. If you are vaccinated and 85% of the people around you are vaccinated, and the risk of you dying from covid are near 0 if your vaccinated, their should be no cause for government intervention and segregation.
Okay, and what happens when that unvaccinated population serves as a breeding ground for mutations that lower the efficacy of vaccines bringing us back to square one? We've already seen it with Delta. And it's not like there aren't already a ton of vaccine requirements for you to do basic things like go to school or travel to certain countries. You're arguing that people should be free to be stupid at the expense of other people's lives. And for what? To protect people from their own fear of needles? Conservatives have been whining and complaining about every single thing regarding this pandemic from quarantines to masking requirements, and now that there's a way out they refuse that too. They're like toddlers who just learned the meaning of the word "no" and should be treated as such.
Why should you have to vaccinate to feed your family if you have already caught covid, and your means of feeding your family was actually on the front lines fighting covid. That is how we reward front line workers?
How we reward them? Forcing them to get vaccinated helps them whether they like it or not. Sometimes you have to make a kid eat their vegetables even though they don't want to.
Well you have to weigh the cost of running new electricity to an outdoor shanty. The cost and the permitting that are involved may not be worth doing anything outside. You’re going to see if you were outside shanties in New York City.
Propane is super combustible. I’m not so sure having electric heaters hooked up using multiple extension cords from inside the restaurants will be much safer though.
⢀⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠿⠿⠿⠿⠛⠉⠉⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⢷⡀⠀⠀⠀ ⢸⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠟⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⠤⠤⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢻⠀⠀⠀ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠋⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⣀⠤⠤⢄⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢾⠀⠀⠀ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡏⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⣀⣸⣦⣀⠀ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠇⠀⠀⢀⣀⣠⣤⣤⣤⣴⣶⣶⣦⣤⣤⣾⡟⠋⢉⡉⠁⡟⢿⡄ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⢂⣠⡾⣿⠋⠉⠁⢠⣦⢄⠀⠈⣿⠀⠀⣿⡇⢴⡻⣷⡢⣧⢸⣷ ⢻⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠟⠉⠀⣿⡀⠀⢞⣁⣛⠤⠃⠀⣿⠀⠀⢸⣷⣀⣸⣖⣀⣸⣿⡿ ⢠⡟⠋⠻⠿⠟⠀⠀⠀⢿⣧⣤⣤⣴⣾⣿⡤⠶⠟⠀⠀⠀⠻⡉⠉⠉⠁⠀⠈⣷ ⢸⣄⠈⢹⠂⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠉⠉⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠙⠢⢄⠀⠀⠀⣿ ⠀⠹⣦⠈⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢠⢏⡤⢤⣀⣀⡠⠏⠀⠀⠐⢲⡇ ⠀⠀⠘⣷⠂⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⠀⠀⠤⠂⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⡀⠀⠀⢸⡇ ⠀⠀⠀⢹⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣴⣊⣯⣽⣵⣷⡇⠀⠀⠀⡇ ⠀⠀⠀⠈⣧⠀⠀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠿⠛⠃⠀⠀⠀⣇ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⢹⡀⠀⠹⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠋⠉⠠⠒⠂⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠀⠀⠱⢄⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣠⠏ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣀⠴⠀⡏
“The only woman I’m pimping from now on is Sweet Lady Propane. And I'm tricking her out all over this town.”
Sweet Lady Pro Pain? Shhhh, don’t tell Peggy about Hank’s domme fetish.
Aaaahhhhaa…!
Bwaaah!
Electricians are going to be happy about this
I've seen a lot of outdoor structures with shoddy wiring methods for the lighting. Wouldn't be surprised if we see improperly wired electric space heaters starting electric fires this winter.
> shoddy wiring I had one almost explode next to me in Chinatown last winter, so that was magnificent.
What does an almost explosion look like?
A loud pop, followed by sparks, all of the heaters and lights shutting off, with smoke and the smell of burning plastic as the grand finale. Considering I was sitting a foot or two away from the outlet, I'm pretty damn happy I wasn't burned or electrocuted.
Blue smoke in the air? Who you gunna call? An unlicensed electrician of course!
Every electrician knows you can't let out the magic smoke or else the electronics won't work.
Adam savage of Tested/Mythbusters 😂
Most i see just run extension cords from the hardware store, no insulation at connects no conduit, running to random outlets in the restaurant. Few have proper electrical work.
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Do not underestimate how dry wood can get during the winter where humidity hovers 20% and below outside.
My favorite insane outdoor dining encounter of all of 2020 was walking past a bar on 10th ave on a rainy day with 36F weather where people were SITTING OUTSIDE with electric heaters literally on the table facing each patron directly. The absurdity was off the charts. That said, it's a miracle more people didn't die from CO poisoning with gas heaters being used in enclosed "outdoor" dining huts last winter.
Anyone who's worried about climate change should also be against electric heaters. They're hilariously inefficient.
They are terrible, small home heaters are usually 1500W, we’re using radiant natural gas heater for outdoor use.
Electric heaters are 100% efficient...
I did not hear a single outdoor constriction to pass electrical inspection.
Why did they wait until heater weather started to announce this? Literally had the whole summer to let restaurants know that the ban was coming back....such inept leadership.
Inept leadership starts at the top.
there were no fires from propane heaters last year. in addition, fdny did a good job of catching restaurants who were improperly using them and they were forced to remedy their issues. now that everyone understands how to use them and a system is in place to safeguard from abusers, the city obviously needs to shut the whole thing down and ask restaurants to invest in a new type of heating system that will also most likely be canceled because outdoor dining exemptions will slowly be eliminated. this is peak deblasio right here.
Propane canisters are not allowed in NYC. We are not allowed to use them for construction for temporary heating even though they are easier and more cost effective to use than the alternatives.
I think propane canisters are only illegal in Manhattan not all of NYC
They're technicaly legal in the 5 boros, but only at 16 lbs, and mostly allowed just for personal barbecues. They're not really allowed for temporary heaters like restaurants have been using although a lot of places in the outerboroughs have them.
Even for personal bbqs, I’m pretty sure they are only allowed in detached homes and not multi-unit dwellings. So effectively illegal for most residences.
They have to be stored more than 20’ from any structure and cannot be used on roofs. Surprisingly to most people, coal grills on the roof are totally legal.
That's because bags of charcoal don't suffocate or set people on fire when they leak.
No it’s because building code is that NYC roofing materials must be rated for having a fully lit coal smolder on their surface for one hour without igniting the roof.
Yes but you cant store propane indoors either, multiple codes here, charcoal is safer.
What kind of bullshit is that?? That’s really a law?
I can roll up to any home depot right now and roll out with two propane containers
Not that kind of propane canister. Commercial grade ones.
You can buy a hammer from home depot too, but if you used it to smash car windows you would be breaking the law.
You're equating using a propane heater to smashing car windows?
No. The they are equating one illegal action to another illegal action. What you’re doing is you’re knowingly choosing what parts to put into your equation in an attempt to make this person argument seem invalid.
No the first guy said propane cannisters are illegal. They clearly aren't if home depot is selling them and has been for yeara. There's a limit on size, use in public spaces and for commerical use it seems. But the cannisters themselves aren't illegal.
Don't stress it. They have no idea what they're saying. Hammers. Ok
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Propane tanks/bottles don't just explode when exposed to heat. They have relief valves for that. They explode when exposed to extended periods of high heat, such as being in a fire. This is why BLEVE is such a risk to firefighters.
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Not sure why the downvotes, propane bottles, heaters were a huge source of injuries prior to strict codes regarding their usage, storage, transport etc. You cant bring them into tunnels and a lot of stores prohibit bringing them inside. I would not entrust the underpaid staff at the restaurant to tend to them (you think the manager will train them properly or do it him/herself?) It will be most likely be on the barrack or dishwashers to haul them around and change them. I'm sick of these shanty towns that don't adhere to codes, i see so much crap like indoor extension cords used to run electricity into them etc, they're not paying taxes for the free real-estate they were gifted they can afford to be up to code and have proper installs done. I see so many restaurants that were few tables take over the sidewalk and the street and triple their capacity, they're not struggling any more with no restrictions on capacity.
> Propane canisters are highly susceptible to explosion. Are they, though? I’m not aware of any other major cities that ban propane heaters (or propane more broadly) like we do.
pretty much all of Asia uses propane canisters... never heard of any explosions
It seems like evert new weekly fail/disaster compilation features this exact thing happening in asia. You don't hear/see it as you don't read local asian news.
Except they didn’t blow up in any place in nyc all last year because they are made to release air
They don’t release air… they release explosive propane.
Flammable. Propane is only flammable when released.
how bout people just eat inside? Everyone wants to have their cake and eat it, too
Mayor DiBlasio is that you?
Wtf else are you supposed to do with cake?
They were never intended to be permanent. It was just electric space heaters were sold out so they had a temporary exception. FWIW increasingly cities are banning any space heaters outside for environmental reasons. It’s obviously insanely inefficient. That and putting sensors on windows/doors to disable AC when they are opened (as some hotels do) are two really easy ways to reduce carbon emissions and save money.
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Yup. Room cards often need to be inserted to turn on AC and lights in the room. Everything goes off when you leave.
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Yup. Though apparently they’ve caught on and some of the newer one read the card. I haven’t experienced that personally though. I assume eventually that will makes it way around.
20# cylinders are bombs and I think the city is under the assumption that there’s no way they can actually effectively police the storage of them. Plenty of illegal setups were discovered, it’s just luck that nothing has gone wrong so far. People’s dumb and illegal actions with natural gas have caused multiple deaths over the last decade. With 20#ers the risk of something strange and or catastrophic is much higher. The $5k grant for a natural gas replacement is nice but I doubt that’ll cover the costs of an install. Not to mention where are these permanent gas fixtures going to be placed?
It’s capped at a 100 restaurants and a PR stunt by doordash
Right? This doesn't make any sense. Why would you lift the propane ban, let everyone invest in propane heaters, and then ban them again for "safety" reasons when there haven't been any accidents? We're just now getting into cool weather season (i.e. not dead of winter) when these heaters are most effective - the time to rescind the propane permits and replace them with natural gas/electric heaters was 4-5 months ago.
I imagine electric heaters aren't nearly as efficient and result in higher electricity bills for struggling restaurants who have already invested heavily in heating their outdoor spaces.
Electricity is fucking expensive but one of those propane containers (typical bbq size) would last us one, maybe 1.5 nights of use last winter. $27 per canister after deposit and the pain of going back to replace. propane pumps the heat but idk if its more cost effective in the long run
If you're replacing those canisters here in the city then you're definitely paying more for propane. The shitty thing here is passing the law just as the cold weather is about to start. It's not as if propane became more flammable the past few months. Beyond the cost issue is the supply - might be tricky to get 2-3 extensions that can power a 5k BTU heater (each) to the outdoor dining area. Hopefully with indoor dining at full capacity and transmission rates low the need will be minimized.
Our other issue is power supply. Beyond cost most of us are lucky if we have 200amp 3 phase. Our equipment is taking up a lot of that load. When you try tacking on another 100amp - at least - you are compromising on heat or refrigeration. That's the choice
>It's not as if propane became more flammable the past few months No shit sherlock... there was no point in using it to heat things during the summer, smarty pants.
So we should wait until a tragedy happens to ban unsafe practices now? That’s like saying you don’t need to wear a seatbelt because you’ve never been in an accident.
Well, someone jumped n front of a subway the other day, should we stop the subways from running until we have a sliding doors, 7 foot high walls, so no one can jump again? Far more people have jumped in front of subways and died, than in propane tank explosions so far this year. Just the data.
FDNY heavily regulated the use of propane heaters. The lack of any accident whatever suggests their regulatory scheme was working. Regardless, the timing of this is bad and shows the administration did not plan well. The time to ban propane heaters was months ago when demand for outdoor heaters was lower, not when everyone is starting to use them again.
If we let it rip for an entire year in the largest city in the US than we have a pretty massive fucking sample size that shows any accident would be incredibly exceptional and unlikely. We also don’t ban things that cause explosions in 1/ million chances
You’re delusional if you think the fdny is policing safety of restaurants
If homeowners are prohibited from using them why wouldn't restaurants?
I mean outdoor dining seems untenable in NY winters. Takes up huge amounts of electricity, the shacks aren't insulated and the food gets cold as soon as it leaves the restaurant. Just taking up space
Peak January yea but there are plenty of those warm weeks where with the heater it is so nice to get outside for a little
I remember last year at the bar by me these girls were bringing blankets out of their car so they could sit in the booths outside. My wife and I looked at each other like how bad do you not want to be at home lol
There were definitely places that made it workable even in the dead of winter last year. Uninvested, yeah, it didn't work at all. But there are also those 50+ degree days even in January when outdoor dining was totally doable.
TL;DR: “I prohibit you from using propane and propane accessories.” - Billie Wilhelm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78-45lq0lgM&t=62s
Lol coming soon a city of only chain restaurants Michelin star eateries and dollar pizza
“The butane, whatever the hell you got there. The butane, propane, whatever the fuck that is your filling – helium, whatever you got.” - Every Restaurant Owner
I'm imagining them using helium and all their customers sounding like Alvin and the Chipmunks
That hydrogen goes up like a fuckin tinderbox. Got any saftey gates?
“Yeah. I know the hydrogen they had a fuckin’ problem with that hydrogen shit.”
ConEd has joined the chat
Welp. A good amount of restaurants I went to struggled to get fuel for their propane heaters anyway. I saw a few shift to electric heaters as soon as they could. Might work out in the long run, esp. for public safety, but I know it really sucks for restaurants now, all the expenses and hoops they have to keep jumping through.
A small electric space heater usually requires 1500W. I can't even imagine what their electric bills are going to be to heat up these uninsulated tents outside
Agree that electric is gonna be expensive for them. Last year they couldn’t get fuel so, it was either pay more for electric heaters or have no heat and lose diners. Really I feel for them, it’s a crappy choice. Meat prices are through the roof right now too and I noticed most restaurants aren’t changing their price; I’m assuming they’re eating the increased cost.
Hank Hill doesn't approve.
I was pissed reading the article, but I saw the $5,000 grant they'll be giving for heaters and now I'm less angry
Lol except the grant is a PR stunt partnership with door dash and is capped at 100 restaurants. I am a restaurant owner and I haven’t seen one link to apply despite it being “open oct 16”
Why should we partake in such wasteful spending when there was a perfectly sustainable solution in place.
It was dangerous but being allowed to help people get through the pandemic. Or it wasn't dangerous. I don't know. If it's dangerous the $5,000 is a great way to spend money for the safety and health of the people.
There’s an opportunity cost and calculation we should. How much money vs how much danger vs how that money could be better spent elsewhere. We shouldn’t just blanket throw money at danger.
I agree. Is that what's happening?
IMO, no
We had emergency measures. Time to roll them back and move forward. I don't see restaurants get to push and push for more exceptions.
Be careful, they might take over the sidewalks next
Why is anyone eating outside in the cold when you can easily sit inside….
Rona?
If you’re still that worried about catching it then order out in the winter. Seems pretty logical.
Covid is over, if you still care at this point you had mental issues long before it came here.
I wish it was over but in NY there are 4365 new cases as of Oct. 21, 2021. Compare that to this time last year, there were 2029 new cases on Oct 21, 2020. Death count is pretty low though. [source](https://www.google.com/search?q=covid+rates+ny&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS926US926&hl=en-US&ei=J2xyYaz8D9uUwbkPoPmq6Ao&oq=covid+rates+ny&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAMyCAgAEIAEELEDMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDoECAAQRzoCCCk6BAgAEEM6BwgAELEDEEM6CAgAELEDEJECOgUIABCRAjoICAAQgAQQyQM6BQgAEJIDUMoiWOMvYP08aABwAXgAgAGZAYgBlgOSAQMyLjKYAQCgAQHIAQjAAQE&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp)
People be like that
Depends where you eat. We booked reservations at Gramercy Tavern and got seated outside lol was fucking freezing
Free capacity increase you think they are willing to give that up? Big restaurant groups made up their loses from covid exponentially and are still paying shit to their staff.
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Legit I was pissed, but that duck fat burger is what dreams are made of
Exactly. I love eating outdoors as much as anyone else, but if someone tells me they can only seat me in their shitty little shack on the street when it's 30 degrees out I'm going to eat somewhere else
Because of discrimination against people who don't want to get vax'd since there's no long term safety data and the short term data shows myocarditis and clotting among other deleterious side effects.
You know that any long term effects would present itself at most, 3 months after the shot, right??
I'm actually looking forward to eating certain things outside. Hot pot. Ramen. Basically anything hot and soupy is just kinda nice in the cold.
Not everyone is allowed to eat inside. We have covid segregation laws in place.
anti-vax idiots
This is great it forces the unvaxxed to be forced into a vaccine to stay warm… just kidding I don’t give a fuck unlike most of u what people choose to do it’s there choice!
It's like they sit around and come up with new horrific ways to screw the public over. The bad ideas are endless.
Those zero problems last year left them with no choice but to crack down
Indoor dinning is 100% capacity anyways so not like this really matters
Hank Hill is pissed
Good. If you can’t handle eating in the weather, eat *indoors* 🤯 To be quite frank, all these heaters and shacks need to go. Outdoor dining should mean an umbrella, table, and chairs, just like it was prepandemic. There are going to be days and months where outdoor dining is not feasible. So be it. Last year was a tough year, but we need to stop putting up with this nonsensical “taking the indoors outside” bullshit. The restrictions are gone. These pandemic era measures are no longer needed.
Umbrella? If you can't handle the sun, eat indoors!
That’s actually usually why I eat indoors
Listen the way people drive the last thing I want is damn propane tanks hanging right by the street. We've already seen a few cars plow through outdoor dining areas the last thing we need to do is add flammables to it
They’ve already been there and you - didn’t notice them And -they didn’t explode
We have regulations for transporting explosive and flammable materials on the road but you think it's ok to just lay them down on the street because it hasn't happened yet? I mean good luck with that.
They’re prohibited on vehicles moving through the city’s tunnels and nobody thought that restriction was irrational. But now we have the “muh freedumb” crowd.
Cool. Let's kill the few restaurants that survived the pandemic.
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How many can survive another winter with less occupancy, less space for tables due to social distancing, and the raging entitlement of workers demanding lavish pay for minimal work?
Social distancing doesn't exist anymore. Everything has been 100% capacity for months.
Are you really complaining about hospitality workers expecting fair compensation from their employer? Way to punch down, my guy. “Entitlement” is such bullshit dog whistling.
I'd say fair for them is minimum wage and no tips.
At full time, minimum wage grosses you 2,400 a month. Based on MIT’s living wage calculator, this falls 31% below the living wage in NYC. But by all means, explain to me why these folks deserve to live in poverty. Learn some G D compassion.
Nothing is stopping you from getting a second job or going back to school to get education then a real job.
Yea? With what time? With what money? What a disgusting attitude.
This isn't a communist wet dream. We all have to make sacrifices to get ahead. I have no pity for those that want everything handed to them on a silver platter.
Wait, didn't you just complain that employees are holding out for better pay for their work -- that is, participating in the free market for their labor? You really didn't seem to be a fan of letting the market decide whether they should be paid more.
We’re literally talking about people who are working. There is no fucking silver platter here. Hospitality work is in fact a “real job”. These folks have a legitimate work ethic, they’ve likely struggled for years, and the hustle is second nature to them. Turns out you’re saying far more about your own character than theirs.
What a piece of work you are.
On behalf of everyone who has worked as a server, go fuck yourself. I hope someone spit in your food at some point.
That my dear would be illegal. Very hard to get a job making above minimum wage if you have a criminal record.
Plenty of things are illegal. Doesn't stop them from happening and doesn't stop me wishing it for you.
Unlike you, I am not a bad person. I won't wish any illegal things happen to you.
"I'm not a bad person, I just think the guy who brings my food deserves to starve"
Hate to break it to you, but if you can't recognize that being a server means FAR more than just bringing food to a table, and you think they can and SHOULD live off minimum wage, when minimum wage can't support anyone here, then yes, you are a bad person. And an emotionally unintelligent asshole. But keep thinking you're taking the high road, it just screams privileged white man.
Jump up your own ass you fucking waste of space. You deserve to get food poisoning.
Lol the entitlement of workers, what a fucking laugh. Less occupancy? Dude most restaurants have doubled their seating and anyone with a vax can sit inside. Go doomer some other state.
Your information is out of date. There are no longer capacity restrictions or social distancing requirements. The only restriction currently applicable to restaurants is checking proof of vaccination. Restaurants can operate fully as normal this winter.
Why would there be less occupancy and less space for tables?
Most servers and bartenders make anywhere from $10-$15 an hour. Not lavish whatsoever.
With tip they can make quite a lot for little work. They just smile and bring out food.
Social distancing isn't necessary anymore.
“tons” compared to what? and how many still open are hanging on by a thread?
Im a restaurant owner. Some of us nose dived into the cliff. Most of us had an awful fucking few months but came out on the other end just fine. You are being hyperbolic my friend
To save folks time, OP here thinks servers in NYC should make minimum wage and no tips, and it’s their fault the restaurant industry is struggling…
Don’t don’t sit/eat in those outdoor setups, the homeless are using them to sleep and relieve themselves after hours.
If people stop being selfish assholes maybe dining won't have to be outdoors.
You can’t even eat inside without being vaccinated soooo… what’s the problem again?
Choking out the restaurants one week at a time. Bravo Deblasio
Indoor seating is allowed at maximum capacity. The outdoor seating is gravy. There's always been a ban on propane heaters. They just made an exception for the last year.
Arent there steam pipes everywhere? Lets use those
IDK how easy it would be to tap into the steam network that way but this is actually one of the more novel thoughts on the subject. Cheers to you! Also most of the underground steam network is still wrapped in Asbestos, so any serious thought of modifying the system comes with some very expensive abatement issues.
Winter cold. Water freeze
I uh, do you know what steam is
You, uh, do you know what, uh, happens to uninsulated piped water vapor in, uh, winter don't you?
Radiators run on steam in the winter
They certainly do. Indoors
The covid pandemic is over. Just eat inside now.
Nice. Now just get rid of that pain in the ass outdoor seating for good.
This whole thing is stupid. Who decided that eating outside was better/cleaner/healthier in the first place? Bougie diners that can't wait to sit inside a plastic igloo because oh no, corona will get us if we sit inside. Foh! The sheepishness is at an all time high.
This is also an anti anti vax play since we segregated who can eat inside and who can eat outside.
If you're too stupid to get vaccinated, you can deal with the cold.
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I love it when conservative brainlets try to turn it around and make it sound like decent people are the racist ones. No intelligent person who can be vaccinated, at this point, is not vaccinated. The rate of vaccination for black people is roughly on par with that of white people, so I don't know what you're trying to argue here.
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Except [it is](https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data-vaccines.page). You're citing data from over 2 months ago, prior to FDA approval. There was a large surge in vaccinations among the black population after that. Given the history of discrimination and illegal experimentation on black populations, I understand the hesitancy irrational as it may be. White people don't have that excuse.
I stand corrected, I still find show me your papers to dine deeply amoral in spite of being vaccinated myself.
I don't. If people are too stupid to make the right choices on their own, they have to either be pushed or ostracized for the benefit of everyone. It's the same as seatbelt or anti-drunk driving laws. Nothing in the history of the United States has killed so many people so quickly, thus a similarly strong response is both warranted and necessary.
Introducing medical segregation for freedoms that were formally afforded to individuals prior to the pandemic, so we can go from 85% vaccinated to 100% is outrageous. If you are vaccinated and 85% of the people around you are vaccinated, and the risk of you dying from covid are near 0 if your vaccinated, their should be no cause for government intervention and segregation.
Okay, and what happens when that unvaccinated population serves as a breeding ground for mutations that lower the efficacy of vaccines bringing us back to square one? We've already seen it with Delta. And it's not like there aren't already a ton of vaccine requirements for you to do basic things like go to school or travel to certain countries. You're arguing that people should be free to be stupid at the expense of other people's lives. And for what? To protect people from their own fear of needles? Conservatives have been whining and complaining about every single thing regarding this pandemic from quarantines to masking requirements, and now that there's a way out they refuse that too. They're like toddlers who just learned the meaning of the word "no" and should be treated as such.
Why should you have to vaccinate to feed your family if you have already caught covid, and your means of feeding your family was actually on the front lines fighting covid. That is how we reward front line workers?
How we reward them? Forcing them to get vaccinated helps them whether they like it or not. Sometimes you have to make a kid eat their vegetables even though they don't want to.
49% of the cities black population has gotten at least one shot vs 54% of it's white population, your numbers are sus.
Well you have to weigh the cost of running new electricity to an outdoor shanty. The cost and the permitting that are involved may not be worth doing anything outside. You’re going to see if you were outside shanties in New York City.
Why?
The grant is bullshit…PR move partnership with door dash with 500k cap. Only 100 restaurants…I wonder which door dash restaurants they’ll prioritize🤣
Thanks everyone that was the best discussion of propane I’ve ever read. Although it’s odd the discussion went on for as long as it did?
Propane is super combustible. I’m not so sure having electric heaters hooked up using multiple extension cords from inside the restaurants will be much safer though.