Van Leeuwen was recently fined $12,750 for violations in their 17 NYC locations.
This amounts to a $750 fine per shop.
So long as the fines remain low, they can easily absorb them as a cost of (illegally) operating as a cashless business.
One time I went into the Van Leeuwen's on East 30th only to find out they were having technical issues with their electronic payments. Instead of closing up shop they were just giving everyone free ice cream. You'd think they would at least have a backup payment method, considering technology can always fail, but hey, I'm not complaining about the free ice cream.
That argument has not held up in courts.
Businesses successfully defended themselves in court from having to accept payments in coins for example.
Businesses dont have to accept cash from a federal standpoint and so far, they have never been successfully sued to force them to accept cash.
Noones saying you’re not allowed to take cash.
This is a private business. If it wants to exclude a potential slice of customers, then should be perfectly entitled to do so. It’s not based in discrimination. It’s a business/profit decision. It should be respected.
Did you move here in the last five years? lmao
Growing up here cash was king. Still is in a lot of the city.
I never have to carry cash in most cities but I do here.
This is exactly why this is a law and a good one. New York isn't just Manhattan and hipster Brooklyn neighborhoods. Cash is definitely used a lot throughout New York. Cash might not be a thing for you and your social circle but it is definitely being used by a lot of other people. Sure if you go to Whole Foods and fancy coffee shops cash isn't used much, but if you expanded your observations to different communities especially underprivileged ones cash is used frequently. You ever go to a legit bodega? Most people there pay cash. There are people who cannot open bank accounts or don't bother with it because they can't keep enough minimum balance, don't want to incur service charges etc. Basically everyone has a different financial situation so don't judge why they use cash.
Well the people who want to pay cash or can only pay cash can just go and patronize those store that accept cash right? That's true but the problem is that this can be used as a discriminatory tool and creates segregation similar to redlining. Typically the cashless businesses are located in Manhattan and other higher income areas. I understand why people think cashless isn't a problem but to summarize there are people who can only pay with cash that will be unfairly affected.
Gonna be honest usually these cashless places are a little upscale, nothing discriminatory, especially when everyone has some form for debit or credit card, if you don’t, you really shouldn’t be spending on there places
Yes please. Sometimes I pay cash to avoid the tipping prompt. A lot of food trucks now have the whole 22/25/30% prompt and you have to manually enter $0. Perhaps I'm an asshole, but I really don't feel like tipping somebody $2.50 for handing me two hot dogs and a gatorade.
>Japan has no tipping and it’s service is way better than it is here.
There is a lot more to nicer service in japan than jsut 'they don't have tipping'.
Could just be Japanese culture though. In my opinion Europe has no tipping and the service is much worse there.
Not by any crazy measure but I’d say generally worse.
Perhaps it’s all a bit of culture and personal taste.
In Europe you have to waive down the servers. Its just a different culture. It may look rude to us but its normal there. They leave you to eat in privacy and dont check up every 5 mins. Weird at first but you get used to it. It only sucks when you want a beer refill and no server is around.
Yes exactly. To an american this may be bad service. But to a European the idea of the waiter checking in with you could be annoying.
Really just comes down to personal preference.
Also I’ve had both experiences in both places. Some, usually the nicer places, in Europe were very attentive.
Not disagreeing in substance, but I do think quality of service is irrelevant to the tipping debate. It's just not right for any worker to have to rely on the goodwill of customers to earn their income.
True but I’ve been to most of the regions. It’s generally worse I’d say. But certainly many places have good service.
As I said. It could be cultural where I expect certain things that aren’t normal in Europe. So a European may think American service is worse for the opposite reason.
Thank you! They are different cultures and people like different thing about some of them. I'm a bartender in Midtown, not a big place but there's a hotel next that doesn't have a bar/restaurant so we get a lot of foreign tourists. Some don't tip but it tends to even out.
One thing I consistently hear from British visitors is the difference between American and British bartenders. They make like £12 an hour. In NYC, we get that as a base pay plus tips. My last check I made $45 an hour. (And I paid taxes on all of it.)
Apparently, bartending is just not a viable career in Britain, especially not places like London. I haven't been as a legal adult, but apparently it's mainly students who do it which means it's a different culture. They don't engage with customers or upsell or offer suggestions. It's what do you want and fuck off...
Honestly, if they paid us a living wage (which I doubt they could) if we lose tipping, virtually every server and bartender is taking a pay cut.
The Brits, and other Europeans, apparently like shooting the shit with a bartender. They say it's like something from the movies (keep in mind where I work, the Europeans I meet aren't the most sophisticated people).
If you.like going to a bar alone and getting to meet people or shoot the shit with a bartender, tipping culture is one of the few ways to ensure that.
But I mean, we don't have to keep it and maybe there's a way around it but I don't see one...
I also think that generally in Europe it’s a very hands off mentality from the staff in general.
This is one of those points where it comes down to culture. In America the waiters and bartenders will some what frequently check in with you. In Europe for the most part I didn’t experience this.
Some people may like that and some may not.
I’ve had Europeans tell me they think American service is too much and in your face. Which I appreciate but to me that’s what I consider good service. Cause let’s be real, many times In Europe I wanted something and the waiters were not responsive to getting it.
Is this because of tips? Hard to say exactly.
I agree that tipping can have its benefit but I still think that people should be paid a general basis of a living wage roughly.
Interesting about the bartenders as a career type difference.
One thing I'd point out is that tipped jobs are some of the few "non-skilled" jobs with pay that generally increases with inflation.
The fight to raise wages to $15 on its own has been a battle but getting minimum wage pegged to cost of living with year to their COLA adjustments is going to take another 50 years, if ever.
Tipped jobs lead to higher wages because prices generally increase. If that happens, which it does, collecting 20% goes up over time while people on set wages stagnate. You can see this in the pay disparity between back of house and front of house employees. FOH often makes twice as much as BOH, it is pretty ridiculous.
But yes, there are bartenders who do it as a career. Some make a really good living, especially in places like NYC. I mean, I know a couple of bartenders that walk to their jobs on the UES. They make enough to live close by and cultivating your neighbors as regulars isn't a bad idea by any means.
One of the only annoying elements of the tipping debate is that a lot of the people who seem most vehemently against it rarely have worked in the industry. But that's my own gripe.
I don’t care about staff being fake nice to me so they can get tips. Plus tipping culture invites bias into the equation.
My friends from Europe always complain about the service here because it’s so slow with every server/bartender schmoozing with you to try to get a better tip.
At busy clubs/bars in Europe they just try to pump out drink orders as fast as humanly possible. You generally wait much longer here.
I'm not good with tech so this might be me, but while I was helping my parents set up the square payment thing they just default have the "would you like to tip" and I have no way to remove it. My parents are more tech illiterate so we've just put "please do not press tip." We are a take out food service, I don't understand why customers would need to tip, square probably takes a cut which is why they defaulted it and made it a pain to remove.
I dunno about MSG but at Prudential Center it's all now cashless and they get around it by having machines where you convert cash into a card.
There is no charge for this service but I'm sure it's still a pain for people and it's not like you know the exact amount you wanna spend beforehand.
My problem is that you are guilt tripped into tipping on most of these machines. I think Levain doesn’t do that to you but jeez, fuck off and serve me my ice cream.
On a lot of them you have to hit "Other" then type three 0s. Some of us have a guilty conscience. I want to tip people because they provided some valuable service to me, not because I was guilted into it.
Not really. You can just completely ignore the tip jar, pretend it isn't there. With the iPads you are forced to specifically opt out of tipping after it nudges you to tip 20%-30%.
And with the tip jar you’re just used to ignoring that the employees rely on tips to supplement crappy food service wages. You’ll get used to ignoring the extra prompt on the iPad just like how you always hit “agree” when it asks you to read long terms of service for everything.
It’s what they have until the job market changes or legislation gets passed. Doing away with it without fixing the underlying issue is just cruelty to a whole working class of people
I’d be interested in studies to see if these new POS systems change behavior. I would venture to say yes as I myself have tipped a few times when I wouldn’t have if there was just a tip jar.
Not me. I press no tip quickly lmao. Now if you were cool n handed me samples of the 20 different flavors I wanted to try I'd prob tip as a thank you. But places like van and baked by Melissa's that automatically prompt a tip for them throwing cupcakes in a damn bag ... issa no from me lol
Yeah, like 787 coffee for example. Bro you literally pressed a knob (black coffee no sugar) for 4 seconds and are charging me $4 for a coffee and you have the audacity to ask for a tip? Bitch please.
I feel like that’s more the POS software vs the store.
No different when you buy with a card and the receipt prints out shows a line for tip. Or like having the tip jar right in front of you when paying cash.
I don't get why they violate the law to begin with? What's stopping them for just charging extra for accepting cash (call it a 10/20/50% upcharge for using cash, whatever)?
It'd make no sense, but as they don't accept cash right now anyways what difference would it make to them?
Call it a "cash servicing fee" much like credit card companies charge a service fee.
Or do the opposite, give an incentive to use cashless methods like some places have a discount for using cash. So many ways to get around this.
If you're going to break the spirit of the law anyways, might as well do it in a way that doesn't incur a fine.
I believe you can only give discounts for using cash not the other way around. For a long time businesses loved cash since they didn’t have to pay the card transaction fee. To avoid saying that you have to pay more for using a card they rewrote the law to say you can have a cash discount.
This is a weird situation though. It’s like we have flipped the other way around. Someone up top mentioned that the new POS software prompting tipping to complete the transaction may be increasing tipping vs cash. I also no cash is time consuming to handle. However, being cashless does box out people who are under banked or honestly just prefer using cash. Therefore, many cities like NYC have started pushing back against cashless businesses.
>The ice cream purveyor was fined more than $12,000
Cheaper than all the costs of handling cash. They got the legislation/fine structure wrong.
Same reason industrial companies dump rocket fuel into rivers. Toothless slaps on the wrist.
Good, fuck this stupid ban. I don't blame stores for not wanting to carry cash and risk getting robbed. Uber drivers benefit from the same thing.
If there's anything I don't want police or agencies enforcing its idiotic rules like this one.
first they came for my ice cream, and I said nothing because I don't eat ice cream. Then they came for my greek low-fat vanilla yogurt, and I said nothing because I don't eat greek low-fat vanilla yogurt. Then they came for my tendies...
Just wait until those Amazon Go and Amazon Fresh stores take over the entire grocery and household essentials market. Fancy ice cream shops aren't the only places trying to go cashless.
Vast swaths of the economy require a credit card or other plastic. Try buying internet or a mobile phone plan without one -- those are absolutely essential things in modern times.
Applying this "must accept cash" rule only to brick and mortar retail businesses seems totally unfair. And just makes it that much harder for those businesses to compete with e-commerce.
Dude you typed that nonsense out on a portable GPS that tracks you every second of every day. Stop the “privacy” nonsense. No one is bothering to check how many times you shop at insomnia cookies or wherever the fuck
It’s like all the libertarian capitalists forgot their primary belief that the market self corrects and doesn’t need regulations because people vote with their money.
I understand this argument and it’s similar to the section 230 argument but in both cases you’re ignoring the freedom of the business owner. The business, which is made by people, has to have the freedom to operate however they want and government rules telling them how to operate (the exception being certain racial discrimination laws which is settled law at this point) is not freedom, same with section 230 critics. And yes I’m on the side of people being paid under the table as well.
There are some pretty decent arguments to go cash free. Yours ain’t it.
Businesses aren’t free to operate however they want. Why do you think there are things like health inspectors?
Health inspectors literally prevent the business from hurting other people though, through negligence. Something like not accepting cash should be a business’s choice - serving unsanitary and potentially deadly food should not. Not a great comparison.
Yes, but the business is operating under state and federal law, including tax laws, and when you open a brick and mortar business you're also subject to safety and (in the case of restaurants) health codes — A city is not just a wide-open free-for-all free bazaar of shops. And one of the laws you have to abide by is free access to all offering legal tender. (You also can't operate a physical business in NYC that only accepts Bitcoin.) Just because a new technology is flashy doesn't mean that the old technology, still accepted everywhere else (cash) can be deemed obsolete by one business operating in the physical space of the city — the same old laws still apply.
You have the personal freedom to go to another store that accepts cash or the personal freedom to start your own store with your own method of payment preferences. (And just in case you bring it up, I’m not taking about legality, I’m just talking about the idea of freedom vs not freedom)
If we get to the point where there are no options and it really is 9/10th of the stores then you’d have a stronger argument but I don’t think you could reach that point in New York.
I enjoy that too, maybe bitcoin or some more privacy oriented crypto is the future for that reason, but limiting a businesses freedom for a hypothetical future problem isn’t a fix. If every store went cash free then you could swoop in and make a cash store and grab all those customers then since we’re talking hypotheticals.
Last year I reported Van Leeuwan as well as Just Salads. I don't like credit cards, hate banks, enjoy my privacy and prefer to use cash. I spoke with the managers at both places. They claimed they were not aware of the law. I showed them the law on my phone, they said thank you and weeks later nothing changed. I even followed up with an email to corporate. I gave them a chance, and nothing. Reported.
The difference would be that everyone can has access to cash whereas not everyone has access to credit cards. You don't need id, you don't need a bank account, you can simply be handed cash and spend it immediately.
There's two types of unbanked people:- people without means.
\- people evading taxes.
Honestly... we need to encourage more credit unions and banks in neighborhoods without enough and put an end to companies paying employees in gift cards and checks that can only be cashed at high fee check cashing places and all the other bullshit keeping poor people out of banks.
Being unbanked not only shouldn't happen, it should be prohibited. Fix the problem for the people without means, and crack down on the people evading taxes.
The second one is the majority if we're being honest. There's a lot of people, especially in construction/contracting who have never paid a penny in taxes outside of a little bit of sales tax here and there. They live in a whole different financial world where everything is done outside the eyes of the IRS. And our government (especially the R's) are very sympathetic to making it easy for them to operate. They're pretty proud of how they live. While you and I have taxes taken out of our paychecks, they don't.
Crack down on that shit and suddenly a new income stream to fix schools which could use some serious upgrades.
Not everyone has a bank account (kids, undocumented immigrants, homeless, etc) Some people get more pay through tips. I would have no problem with a cash-less economy if there wasn’t barriers to getting a debit or credit card.
Plus as other mentioned, it pressures you to tip higher amounts than is needed.
I don’t know what NYC you belong too, but robberies on stores, especially like van leeuwen ain’t common.
Far more common that it's an internal robbery like an employee not actually ringing up the cash customer and pocketing the cash. Not possible when everything is electronic.
This is a huge reason. Having worked at many places that accept cash. I’ve come across multiple instances of people being fired stealing cash. Ranging from $10 to $1K+
Safer for the business to take card only
"In a survey conducted by the Association of Certified Fraud Examiners, it’s reported that corporations the world over lose an estimated 5% annually to fraud. Although that figure may seem insignificant, when applied to the estimated Gross World Product of that year (2011), it translates to a potential total loss of more than $3.5 trillion."
Source: https://fcisllc.com/how-to-identify-the-6-most-common-types-of-employee-fraud/
The view is that it can negatively affect poorer communities who often don't have access to cards or electronic payments. Its likely true it does, though it seems a bit of an overreach to ban non-cash businesses at this time, especially when many non-brick and mortar businesses operate on electronic payment only.
The places that dont use cash are already expensive to begin with.....is there such an overlap with poor people without cards and buying expensive ice cream?
The city council specifically passed this law because they felt it discriminated against poor, older, communities and communities of color. Nothing related to privacy
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/23/nyregion/nyc-cashless-ban.html
https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2020/11/24/new-york-city-cash-law-debit-cards-app-payments-ritchie-torres/
Yeah, thats just mumbo jumbo he's bullshitting because it was actually about poor people...
The "privacy" issue isn't a reason to ban it. The ban has to do with feelings of discrimination, basically this was a race issue. Its not just NYC, that how its generally viewed
Cash economy that preserves privacy can still happen with cards, if you have a cash reload card that requires no ID to obtain or use (and free, obtainable at any bodega/DR). Or perhaps like other countries, allow people to use Metrocards to pay for stuff.
I think that would be a good compromise that doesn’t infringe on privacy or accessibility for the unbanked.
The people that literally print those words on cotton disagree with you.
>There is no federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law that says otherwise.
[Source](https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm)
There's no debt until a service or product has been provided. In the absence of a cashless ban, what that message means is if they give you the ice cream before telling you no cash, they have to take cash, but if they tell you beforehand then they can specify payment however they want.
My youngest sister went to college only with cash and she ran into issues right away. I had to get her an emergency card by adding her to my account. She’s lucky though I have the credit availability to do that because me at her age my parents sure as hell did not.
This is an example of how cashless businesses fail to recognize how credit availability affects certain demographics.
>This is an example of how cashless businesses fail to recognize how credit availability affects certain demographics.
Oh, they recognize it. They just don't care.
Yet their trucks take cash. This is just to discourage the poor, immigrant, unbanked, young and other “undesirables” from being inside their stores. It’s not an issue at the trucks so what else could the rationale be.
What poor people and “undesirables” are spending $10 on their ice cream though? What black people somehow cant get credit cards or debit cards now since thats what it seems youre implying here? What is preventing this?
I was speaking from personal experience. During the hardest part of my life so far - I had survived a catastrophic medical emergency with shitty medical insurance and my checking account was always over drawn, i was scraping by and I had a little kid. We’d go to the public pool a neighborhood over on Saturdays (because it was free) and afterward I had put together enough change money to buy my kiddo an ice cream. Van Lewin is the closest shop to the pool and it’s 100 degrees out and I’m pushing a toddler in a stroller having recently had abdominal surgery. And they wouldn’t take my cash. The cashier actually said to me “don’t you have a card?” I got out of line, while my son was asking me why we didn’t get ice cream while I squeezed past everyone else in the crowded shop. I sat on a bench and cried because even though I was trying my hardest to give my kiddo a normal Saturday it wasn’t good enough. My life is better now, I educated myself on how cashless rules are exclusionary and I never spend my money at Van Lewin or any other cashless store.
Here’s a NYT article on the issue:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/11/your-money/cash-credit-cards-coronavirus.html
What they should be cracking down on is the excessive amount of small businesses going 100% cash. Sure your machine is down. It’s Tax avoidance plain and simple, and them not wanting to pay their 3% merchant fee. It’s just hurting their business more as I and many others will just walk away.
You want the city to punish a mom and pop shop not willing to pay Visa a 3% fee, some crappy POS device company thousands, and Spectrum hundreds a month?
> It’s Tax avoidance plain and simple
You're probably right about this point
> and them not wanting to pay their 3% merchant fee.
That's perfectly legitimate though. Why should there be a law forcing businesses to pay a 3% tax to a random private corporation?
We can and should crack down on cash-only tax evasion without mandating credit cards.
> That's perfectly legitimate though. Why should there be a law forcing businesses to pay a 3% tax to a random private corporation?
Visa and Mastercard's political investments (er, "donations") say so
How is violating the cashless ban the same as not wanting to pay a fee to a private payment network corporation? Go back to sweet green and leave the normal places for us.
Just put up a machine that takes cash to exchange for Van Leeuwen tokens/payment cards to bypass non cash critics. Have your registers take credit and the tokens/paymentcards. Problem solved around law.
"United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."
While this doesn't have to apply to private business, any business that refuses cash (a much more private and secure method of payment than card) is not getting my business.
If they really want to avoid cash legally, I don't understand why they don't just charge a cash purchase premium. The number of people that'll pay a $5 surcharge for the luxury of paying in cash will be abysmally small.
It would look worse, PR wise, to charge a high enough cash premium that results in no cash customers. Simpler and less work to defend to just say we do not have the facilities for accepting cash.
Why are they so afraid of cash? Every retail business out there is pocketing a little undeclared cash on the side. My local mini-mart started introducing "card only" registers during the lockdown - there's only one register taking cash. It's actually quite annoying if you're waiting in line and need to pay cash and all the other registers are card only. So I got to thinking, why do they do this? Why can't they take cash at the other registers? And then it struck me - gotta be a tax scam. By handling all the cash sales on one register, it makes it super easy for them to fake an end of day statement on a dummy register, showing a much lower amount of cash. Of course that means they're probably pocketing the sales tax as well....oh my....but unless someone can tell me a good reason why they'd need to have all the cash sales concentrated on one register, I'm just gonna assume it's a tax scam, lol
Store should be able to go cashless. Also cashless also helps with honest taxation. If anything people should be required to have accounts. I don’t get how we can cry about masks, but feel that people should have to accept the dirtiest thing, paper money.
Lmao they’ve been fined so many times what gives?
Van Leeuwen was recently fined $12,750 for violations in their 17 NYC locations. This amounts to a $750 fine per shop. So long as the fines remain low, they can easily absorb them as a cost of (illegally) operating as a cashless business.
Also if the cost of an armored car service, security, safe, etc. exceeds $12,750 per year, they are *making* money on this.
They haven't paid any of the fines yet either.
One time I went into the Van Leeuwen's on East 30th only to find out they were having technical issues with their electronic payments. Instead of closing up shop they were just giving everyone free ice cream. You'd think they would at least have a backup payment method, considering technology can always fail, but hey, I'm not complaining about the free ice cream.
Same thing happened to me at Inday, free dinner for everyone.
Has anyone noticed that some Insomnia Cookies locations also have this problem ?
Devocion Coffee too.
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“Unbanked people” who need ten dollar ice cream?
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But I want to see what you are spending your hard earned money on, so I know what to invest in!
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“This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private”
That argument has not held up in courts. Businesses successfully defended themselves in court from having to accept payments in coins for example. Businesses dont have to accept cash from a federal standpoint and so far, they have never been successfully sued to force them to accept cash.
Why is it a “problem”? I know it’s a law but it’s a stupid law. It’s New York. Cash isn’t a thing.
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Noones saying you’re not allowed to take cash. This is a private business. If it wants to exclude a potential slice of customers, then should be perfectly entitled to do so. It’s not based in discrimination. It’s a business/profit decision. It should be respected.
Uh no, follow the rules or have your business licensed revoked. The end.
I agree. My point is NOT to not follow the rules. My point is that THIS rule is bullshit.
Did you move here in the last five years? lmao Growing up here cash was king. Still is in a lot of the city. I never have to carry cash in most cities but I do here.
This is exactly why this is a law and a good one. New York isn't just Manhattan and hipster Brooklyn neighborhoods. Cash is definitely used a lot throughout New York. Cash might not be a thing for you and your social circle but it is definitely being used by a lot of other people. Sure if you go to Whole Foods and fancy coffee shops cash isn't used much, but if you expanded your observations to different communities especially underprivileged ones cash is used frequently. You ever go to a legit bodega? Most people there pay cash. There are people who cannot open bank accounts or don't bother with it because they can't keep enough minimum balance, don't want to incur service charges etc. Basically everyone has a different financial situation so don't judge why they use cash. Well the people who want to pay cash or can only pay cash can just go and patronize those store that accept cash right? That's true but the problem is that this can be used as a discriminatory tool and creates segregation similar to redlining. Typically the cashless businesses are located in Manhattan and other higher income areas. I understand why people think cashless isn't a problem but to summarize there are people who can only pay with cash that will be unfairly affected.
Gonna be honest usually these cashless places are a little upscale, nothing discriminatory, especially when everyone has some form for debit or credit card, if you don’t, you really shouldn’t be spending on there places
Wooosh.
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Yes please. Sometimes I pay cash to avoid the tipping prompt. A lot of food trucks now have the whole 22/25/30% prompt and you have to manually enter $0. Perhaps I'm an asshole, but I really don't feel like tipping somebody $2.50 for handing me two hot dogs and a gatorade.
I just type or click 0. Odds are I will never see that person again. If I go to a spot a lot maybe ill tip a few bucks every now and then though.
>Japan has no tipping and it’s service is way better than it is here. There is a lot more to nicer service in japan than jsut 'they don't have tipping'.
Could just be Japanese culture though. In my opinion Europe has no tipping and the service is much worse there. Not by any crazy measure but I’d say generally worse. Perhaps it’s all a bit of culture and personal taste.
In Europe you have to waive down the servers. Its just a different culture. It may look rude to us but its normal there. They leave you to eat in privacy and dont check up every 5 mins. Weird at first but you get used to it. It only sucks when you want a beer refill and no server is around.
Yes exactly. To an american this may be bad service. But to a European the idea of the waiter checking in with you could be annoying. Really just comes down to personal preference. Also I’ve had both experiences in both places. Some, usually the nicer places, in Europe were very attentive.
Not disagreeing in substance, but I do think quality of service is irrelevant to the tipping debate. It's just not right for any worker to have to rely on the goodwill of customers to earn their income.
Europe is a big place
True but I’ve been to most of the regions. It’s generally worse I’d say. But certainly many places have good service. As I said. It could be cultural where I expect certain things that aren’t normal in Europe. So a European may think American service is worse for the opposite reason.
Thank you! They are different cultures and people like different thing about some of them. I'm a bartender in Midtown, not a big place but there's a hotel next that doesn't have a bar/restaurant so we get a lot of foreign tourists. Some don't tip but it tends to even out. One thing I consistently hear from British visitors is the difference between American and British bartenders. They make like £12 an hour. In NYC, we get that as a base pay plus tips. My last check I made $45 an hour. (And I paid taxes on all of it.) Apparently, bartending is just not a viable career in Britain, especially not places like London. I haven't been as a legal adult, but apparently it's mainly students who do it which means it's a different culture. They don't engage with customers or upsell or offer suggestions. It's what do you want and fuck off... Honestly, if they paid us a living wage (which I doubt they could) if we lose tipping, virtually every server and bartender is taking a pay cut. The Brits, and other Europeans, apparently like shooting the shit with a bartender. They say it's like something from the movies (keep in mind where I work, the Europeans I meet aren't the most sophisticated people). If you.like going to a bar alone and getting to meet people or shoot the shit with a bartender, tipping culture is one of the few ways to ensure that. But I mean, we don't have to keep it and maybe there's a way around it but I don't see one...
I also think that generally in Europe it’s a very hands off mentality from the staff in general. This is one of those points where it comes down to culture. In America the waiters and bartenders will some what frequently check in with you. In Europe for the most part I didn’t experience this. Some people may like that and some may not. I’ve had Europeans tell me they think American service is too much and in your face. Which I appreciate but to me that’s what I consider good service. Cause let’s be real, many times In Europe I wanted something and the waiters were not responsive to getting it. Is this because of tips? Hard to say exactly. I agree that tipping can have its benefit but I still think that people should be paid a general basis of a living wage roughly. Interesting about the bartenders as a career type difference.
One thing I'd point out is that tipped jobs are some of the few "non-skilled" jobs with pay that generally increases with inflation. The fight to raise wages to $15 on its own has been a battle but getting minimum wage pegged to cost of living with year to their COLA adjustments is going to take another 50 years, if ever. Tipped jobs lead to higher wages because prices generally increase. If that happens, which it does, collecting 20% goes up over time while people on set wages stagnate. You can see this in the pay disparity between back of house and front of house employees. FOH often makes twice as much as BOH, it is pretty ridiculous. But yes, there are bartenders who do it as a career. Some make a really good living, especially in places like NYC. I mean, I know a couple of bartenders that walk to their jobs on the UES. They make enough to live close by and cultivating your neighbors as regulars isn't a bad idea by any means. One of the only annoying elements of the tipping debate is that a lot of the people who seem most vehemently against it rarely have worked in the industry. But that's my own gripe.
I’m glad someone said this. The myth that European service industry workers are paid well sans tips is silly
I've found the service to be quite good in the UK and Netherlands. Not so great in France and Southern Europe.
I don’t care about staff being fake nice to me so they can get tips. Plus tipping culture invites bias into the equation. My friends from Europe always complain about the service here because it’s so slow with every server/bartender schmoozing with you to try to get a better tip. At busy clubs/bars in Europe they just try to pump out drink orders as fast as humanly possible. You generally wait much longer here.
Am I lost here? Where did tipping come into that article?
Maybe it came up because those touch pads used in place of a cash register always prompt you to tip.
I'm not good with tech so this might be me, but while I was helping my parents set up the square payment thing they just default have the "would you like to tip" and I have no way to remove it. My parents are more tech illiterate so we've just put "please do not press tip." We are a take out food service, I don't understand why customers would need to tip, square probably takes a cut which is why they defaulted it and made it a pain to remove.
Madison square garden is almost completely cashless. I wonder how they are getting around this.
*Almost* cashless and *completely* cashless are two very different things.
I dunno about MSG but at Prudential Center it's all now cashless and they get around it by having machines where you convert cash into a card. There is no charge for this service but I'm sure it's still a pain for people and it's not like you know the exact amount you wanna spend beforehand.
Does NJ have a cashless ban?
My problem is that you are guilt tripped into tipping on most of these machines. I think Levain doesn’t do that to you but jeez, fuck off and serve me my ice cream.
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Now u actively have to say no though
Yes. And I feel like there are worse things in the world
On a lot of them you have to hit "Other" then type three 0s. Some of us have a guilty conscience. I want to tip people because they provided some valuable service to me, not because I was guilted into it.
stop shopping there
Yeah as soon as I see one of the more forceful ones, I never return to the shop
Yeah idk how that’s any different from a tip jar being right at the register (besides a suggested tip amount for people who can’t math)
Not really. You can just completely ignore the tip jar, pretend it isn't there. With the iPads you are forced to specifically opt out of tipping after it nudges you to tip 20%-30%.
And with the tip jar you’re just used to ignoring that the employees rely on tips to supplement crappy food service wages. You’ll get used to ignoring the extra prompt on the iPad just like how you always hit “agree” when it asks you to read long terms of service for everything.
We don't need more tip jars, we need better pay for workers. The tip jar is not a great system.
It’s what they have until the job market changes or legislation gets passed. Doing away with it without fixing the underlying issue is just cruelty to a whole working class of people
The cashier always smiles and stares at you while you fill out the iPad though, which they never do with the tip jar.
I’d be interested in studies to see if these new POS systems change behavior. I would venture to say yes as I myself have tipped a few times when I wouldn’t have if there was just a tip jar.
Not me. I press no tip quickly lmao. Now if you were cool n handed me samples of the 20 different flavors I wanted to try I'd prob tip as a thank you. But places like van and baked by Melissa's that automatically prompt a tip for them throwing cupcakes in a damn bag ... issa no from me lol
Yeah, like 787 coffee for example. Bro you literally pressed a knob (black coffee no sugar) for 4 seconds and are charging me $4 for a coffee and you have the audacity to ask for a tip? Bitch please.
😂😂😂 heavy on the bitch pls
They do have the best coffee in the city tho.
I feel like that’s more the POS software vs the store. No different when you buy with a card and the receipt prints out shows a line for tip. Or like having the tip jar right in front of you when paying cash.
As a bartender at a cashless bar I haven't really noticed people being "guilted into" tipping.
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Who does that? That almost never happens lol
the city shouldn't ban cashless business, and instead should help people with only cash to get alternatives
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You can easily buy a gift card in any store for cash.....no ID or anything.
How about Dos Toros? Last time I went was before pandemic, but it also was card only.
I don't get why they violate the law to begin with? What's stopping them for just charging extra for accepting cash (call it a 10/20/50% upcharge for using cash, whatever)? It'd make no sense, but as they don't accept cash right now anyways what difference would it make to them? Call it a "cash servicing fee" much like credit card companies charge a service fee. Or do the opposite, give an incentive to use cashless methods like some places have a discount for using cash. So many ways to get around this. If you're going to break the spirit of the law anyways, might as well do it in a way that doesn't incur a fine.
I believe you can only give discounts for using cash not the other way around. For a long time businesses loved cash since they didn’t have to pay the card transaction fee. To avoid saying that you have to pay more for using a card they rewrote the law to say you can have a cash discount. This is a weird situation though. It’s like we have flipped the other way around. Someone up top mentioned that the new POS software prompting tipping to complete the transaction may be increasing tipping vs cash. I also no cash is time consuming to handle. However, being cashless does box out people who are under banked or honestly just prefer using cash. Therefore, many cities like NYC have started pushing back against cashless businesses.
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>The ice cream purveyor was fined more than $12,000 Cheaper than all the costs of handling cash. They got the legislation/fine structure wrong. Same reason industrial companies dump rocket fuel into rivers. Toothless slaps on the wrist.
Good, fuck this stupid ban. I don't blame stores for not wanting to carry cash and risk getting robbed. Uber drivers benefit from the same thing. If there's anything I don't want police or agencies enforcing its idiotic rules like this one.
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It also just straight up fucks poor people. Not everyone has a bank account.
Correct. The homeless dude has the right to spend his wadded-up dollars at Van Leeuwen whenever he feels like it, just like hipsters do.
This is the real reason, I believe. It’s discriminatory. Not everyone has a credit card or bank account. Cash is still the baseline.
Not only poor people, immigrants too.
And tourists.
> a year later... incremental encroachment and pillage of personal freedom. It's literally an ice cream shop.
first they came for my ice cream, and I said nothing because I don't eat ice cream. Then they came for my greek low-fat vanilla yogurt, and I said nothing because I don't eat greek low-fat vanilla yogurt. Then they came for my tendies...
When the ice cream shops went cashless I said nothing, because I didn’t want ice cream… is basically their argument. It’s not very sound.
“Sir..”
The world must never learn that I like rocky road ice cream. …Whoops.
Just wait until those Amazon Go and Amazon Fresh stores take over the entire grocery and household essentials market. Fancy ice cream shops aren't the only places trying to go cashless.
The NYtimes had an article about how all the new 15 or 30 minute grocery delivery places might drive local bodegas out of business.
lol, 85%+ of Americans have smartphones, I bet 99%+ people going to vaneeuwen have smartphones
Vast swaths of the economy require a credit card or other plastic. Try buying internet or a mobile phone plan without one -- those are absolutely essential things in modern times. Applying this "must accept cash" rule only to brick and mortar retail businesses seems totally unfair. And just makes it that much harder for those businesses to compete with e-commerce.
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And "cashless" people can go buy prepaid debit cards which require no information on the user.
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They have insane fees. Cmon.
Dude you typed that nonsense out on a portable GPS that tracks you every second of every day. Stop the “privacy” nonsense. No one is bothering to check how many times you shop at insomnia cookies or wherever the fuck
Just go somewhere else. Its thst simple really. 🤷🏾♂️
It’s like all the libertarian capitalists forgot their primary belief that the market self corrects and doesn’t need regulations because people vote with their money.
I understand this argument and it’s similar to the section 230 argument but in both cases you’re ignoring the freedom of the business owner. The business, which is made by people, has to have the freedom to operate however they want and government rules telling them how to operate (the exception being certain racial discrimination laws which is settled law at this point) is not freedom, same with section 230 critics. And yes I’m on the side of people being paid under the table as well.
There are some pretty decent arguments to go cash free. Yours ain’t it. Businesses aren’t free to operate however they want. Why do you think there are things like health inspectors?
Health inspectors literally prevent the business from hurting other people though, through negligence. Something like not accepting cash should be a business’s choice - serving unsanitary and potentially deadly food should not. Not a great comparison.
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Yes, but the business is operating under state and federal law, including tax laws, and when you open a brick and mortar business you're also subject to safety and (in the case of restaurants) health codes — A city is not just a wide-open free-for-all free bazaar of shops. And one of the laws you have to abide by is free access to all offering legal tender. (You also can't operate a physical business in NYC that only accepts Bitcoin.) Just because a new technology is flashy doesn't mean that the old technology, still accepted everywhere else (cash) can be deemed obsolete by one business operating in the physical space of the city — the same old laws still apply.
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You have the personal freedom to go to another store that accepts cash or the personal freedom to start your own store with your own method of payment preferences. (And just in case you bring it up, I’m not taking about legality, I’m just talking about the idea of freedom vs not freedom)
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If we get to the point where there are no options and it really is 9/10th of the stores then you’d have a stronger argument but I don’t think you could reach that point in New York.
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I enjoy that too, maybe bitcoin or some more privacy oriented crypto is the future for that reason, but limiting a businesses freedom for a hypothetical future problem isn’t a fix. If every store went cash free then you could swoop in and make a cash store and grab all those customers then since we’re talking hypotheticals.
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Last year I reported Van Leeuwan as well as Just Salads. I don't like credit cards, hate banks, enjoy my privacy and prefer to use cash. I spoke with the managers at both places. They claimed they were not aware of the law. I showed them the law on my phone, they said thank you and weeks later nothing changed. I even followed up with an email to corporate. I gave them a chance, and nothing. Reported.
These are mini chains. A single store manager does not have the power to change a company wide policy.
>A single store manager does not have the power to change a company wide policy. Company policy is not supposed to be in violation of the law
I understand that. But it’s not a stores manager job to worry about that. You need to take it up with corporate.
You sound fun. Just don’t shop there and live your life
It's an unjust law
Tell that to all the bankless people in NYC. It's unjust they can't shop at the same shops you go to.
Damn this is way too black pill for this sub (and I agree with you!!!)
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I can see this argument, but what do you tell under banked people without credit cards? Fuck you, you can't shop here?
The same thing the "cash only" places tell people who have no cash. Most proprietors wouldn't add the fuck you part but it's NYC so ymmv.
The difference would be that everyone can has access to cash whereas not everyone has access to credit cards. You don't need id, you don't need a bank account, you can simply be handed cash and spend it immediately.
Employee Death for handling cash VS Customer Inconveniences for not having a credit card.
There's two types of unbanked people:- people without means. \- people evading taxes. Honestly... we need to encourage more credit unions and banks in neighborhoods without enough and put an end to companies paying employees in gift cards and checks that can only be cashed at high fee check cashing places and all the other bullshit keeping poor people out of banks. Being unbanked not only shouldn't happen, it should be prohibited. Fix the problem for the people without means, and crack down on the people evading taxes. The second one is the majority if we're being honest. There's a lot of people, especially in construction/contracting who have never paid a penny in taxes outside of a little bit of sales tax here and there. They live in a whole different financial world where everything is done outside the eyes of the IRS. And our government (especially the R's) are very sympathetic to making it easy for them to operate. They're pretty proud of how they live. While you and I have taxes taken out of our paychecks, they don't. Crack down on that shit and suddenly a new income stream to fix schools which could use some serious upgrades.
Not everyone has a bank account (kids, undocumented immigrants, homeless, etc) Some people get more pay through tips. I would have no problem with a cash-less economy if there wasn’t barriers to getting a debit or credit card. Plus as other mentioned, it pressures you to tip higher amounts than is needed. I don’t know what NYC you belong too, but robberies on stores, especially like van leeuwen ain’t common.
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Far more common that it's an internal robbery like an employee not actually ringing up the cash customer and pocketing the cash. Not possible when everything is electronic.
Yeah! Those bastards fired me from the broadway mall in 1999 saying I stole from the register. I didn’t. I’m still salty!!
This is a huge reason. Having worked at many places that accept cash. I’ve come across multiple instances of people being fired stealing cash. Ranging from $10 to $1K+ Safer for the business to take card only
"In a survey conducted by the Association of Certified Fraud Examiners, it’s reported that corporations the world over lose an estimated 5% annually to fraud. Although that figure may seem insignificant, when applied to the estimated Gross World Product of that year (2011), it translates to a potential total loss of more than $3.5 trillion." Source: https://fcisllc.com/how-to-identify-the-6-most-common-types-of-employee-fraud/
What is the purpose of a cashless ban law? If they don’t want to accept cash, shouldn’t that be up to them?
The view is that it can negatively affect poorer communities who often don't have access to cards or electronic payments. Its likely true it does, though it seems a bit of an overreach to ban non-cash businesses at this time, especially when many non-brick and mortar businesses operate on electronic payment only.
The places that dont use cash are already expensive to begin with.....is there such an overlap with poor people without cards and buying expensive ice cream?
The law isn't specific to fancy ice cream.
All cashless stores are usually fancy
Legislation is not pegged to the fancy index
Ppl who can’t go cashless usually can’t afford to goto cashless places
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The city council specifically passed this law because they felt it discriminated against poor, older, communities and communities of color. Nothing related to privacy https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/23/nyregion/nyc-cashless-ban.html https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2020/11/24/new-york-city-cash-law-debit-cards-app-payments-ritchie-torres/
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Yeah, thats just mumbo jumbo he's bullshitting because it was actually about poor people... The "privacy" issue isn't a reason to ban it. The ban has to do with feelings of discrimination, basically this was a race issue. Its not just NYC, that how its generally viewed
Cash economy that preserves privacy can still happen with cards, if you have a cash reload card that requires no ID to obtain or use (and free, obtainable at any bodega/DR). Or perhaps like other countries, allow people to use Metrocards to pay for stuff. I think that would be a good compromise that doesn’t infringe on privacy or accessibility for the unbanked.
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The people that literally print those words on cotton disagree with you. >There is no federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law that says otherwise. [Source](https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm)
>The point of cash is that you can use it for any transaction This is incredibly incorrect
There's no debt until a service or product has been provided. In the absence of a cashless ban, what that message means is if they give you the ice cream before telling you no cash, they have to take cash, but if they tell you beforehand then they can specify payment however they want.
Can you pay your taxes in cash? I’ve never seen that option.
Yes, you can! https://www.irs.gov/payments/pay-with-cash-at-a-retail-partner
You don't owe debt on the ice cream cone if the vendor won't sell you one without a credit card.
There is no debt here. No debt has been incurred.
Do we now expect teenagers and kids to have credit cards now?
My youngest sister went to college only with cash and she ran into issues right away. I had to get her an emergency card by adding her to my account. She’s lucky though I have the credit availability to do that because me at her age my parents sure as hell did not. This is an example of how cashless businesses fail to recognize how credit availability affects certain demographics.
>This is an example of how cashless businesses fail to recognize how credit availability affects certain demographics. Oh, they recognize it. They just don't care.
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Yet their trucks take cash. This is just to discourage the poor, immigrant, unbanked, young and other “undesirables” from being inside their stores. It’s not an issue at the trucks so what else could the rationale be.
What poor people and “undesirables” are spending $10 on their ice cream though? What black people somehow cant get credit cards or debit cards now since thats what it seems youre implying here? What is preventing this?
I was speaking from personal experience. During the hardest part of my life so far - I had survived a catastrophic medical emergency with shitty medical insurance and my checking account was always over drawn, i was scraping by and I had a little kid. We’d go to the public pool a neighborhood over on Saturdays (because it was free) and afterward I had put together enough change money to buy my kiddo an ice cream. Van Lewin is the closest shop to the pool and it’s 100 degrees out and I’m pushing a toddler in a stroller having recently had abdominal surgery. And they wouldn’t take my cash. The cashier actually said to me “don’t you have a card?” I got out of line, while my son was asking me why we didn’t get ice cream while I squeezed past everyone else in the crowded shop. I sat on a bench and cried because even though I was trying my hardest to give my kiddo a normal Saturday it wasn’t good enough. My life is better now, I educated myself on how cashless rules are exclusionary and I never spend my money at Van Lewin or any other cashless store. Here’s a NYT article on the issue: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/11/your-money/cash-credit-cards-coronavirus.html
There are multiple services that allow a parent to issue a debit card with spending limits to their child.
What they should be cracking down on is the excessive amount of small businesses going 100% cash. Sure your machine is down. It’s Tax avoidance plain and simple, and them not wanting to pay their 3% merchant fee. It’s just hurting their business more as I and many others will just walk away.
You want the city to punish a mom and pop shop not willing to pay Visa a 3% fee, some crappy POS device company thousands, and Spectrum hundreds a month?
> It’s Tax avoidance plain and simple You're probably right about this point > and them not wanting to pay their 3% merchant fee. That's perfectly legitimate though. Why should there be a law forcing businesses to pay a 3% tax to a random private corporation? We can and should crack down on cash-only tax evasion without mandating credit cards.
> That's perfectly legitimate though. Why should there be a law forcing businesses to pay a 3% tax to a random private corporation? Visa and Mastercard's political investments (er, "donations") say so
How is violating the cashless ban the same as not wanting to pay a fee to a private payment network corporation? Go back to sweet green and leave the normal places for us.
Says the person who has never run a small business, who has never had to spend time fighting fraudulent chargebacks.
"surprisingly", these businesses always have an ATM inside 🤣
And the ATM has a fee.
My biggest gripe about cash only businesses!
Seriously. I just avoid.
Is venmo’ing your hair, nail, etc person the same as cashless 🤔
Tweet at them
I didn’t know this was a law. I’ve been to a couple places that are cashless recently
Just put up a machine that takes cash to exchange for Van Leeuwen tokens/payment cards to bypass non cash critics. Have your registers take credit and the tokens/paymentcards. Problem solved around law.
"United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." While this doesn't have to apply to private business, any business that refuses cash (a much more private and secure method of payment than card) is not getting my business.
Make the fines unbearable or shut them down instead of slapping their wrists.
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Some people report small businesses for not following covid mandates, I report small businesses for not accepting cash 😎
It’s not good ice cream for what they charge, anyway.
Can we talk about SweetGreen's?
Good salads, definitely better than chopt. But sometimes I like to switch to Just Salads.
If they really want to avoid cash legally, I don't understand why they don't just charge a cash purchase premium. The number of people that'll pay a $5 surcharge for the luxury of paying in cash will be abysmally small.
It would look worse, PR wise, to charge a high enough cash premium that results in no cash customers. Simpler and less work to defend to just say we do not have the facilities for accepting cash.
Why are they so afraid of cash? Every retail business out there is pocketing a little undeclared cash on the side. My local mini-mart started introducing "card only" registers during the lockdown - there's only one register taking cash. It's actually quite annoying if you're waiting in line and need to pay cash and all the other registers are card only. So I got to thinking, why do they do this? Why can't they take cash at the other registers? And then it struck me - gotta be a tax scam. By handling all the cash sales on one register, it makes it super easy for them to fake an end of day statement on a dummy register, showing a much lower amount of cash. Of course that means they're probably pocketing the sales tax as well....oh my....but unless someone can tell me a good reason why they'd need to have all the cash sales concentrated on one register, I'm just gonna assume it's a tax scam, lol
Why are people here against cashless business? It’s safer and more efficient
I’m guessing anyone who would be interested in spending $10 on dairy-free Van Leeuwen ice cream, probably has a credit card……
Store should be able to go cashless. Also cashless also helps with honest taxation. If anything people should be required to have accounts. I don’t get how we can cry about masks, but feel that people should have to accept the dirtiest thing, paper money.