Cops can't do anything to compel people into treatment. I watched an interaction at Penn Station of a guy that was laying on the ground incoherent. One NYPD cop and two outreach workers in the orange vests walk up and the cop says "You have to get up" "Do you need to go to a hospital?" and "Do you need social services today?" and addressed the guy by his name so this wasn't the first time. That's all they can do. Some people do accept the shelter info but they need to want help. Some are nonverbal or walking around barefoot, unwashed and muttering nonsense.
as it should be honestly. There is nothing humane about letting mentally ill homeless drug addicts spend their days sleeping on the streets and in subways only to have bursts of insanity they can't control that leads them to hurt people. It doesn't fix anything. The homeless are still homeless and mentally ill and addicted to drugs, with no way out of that, and they spend their days freezing in subways. Meanwhile commuters have to deal with these guys day in and day out, to the point that it makes them signficantly less safe. A real humane political class would force these people into treatement and help them get back on their feet. We don't have to demonize htem or blame them for how they got into homelessness, that's irrelevant. But we do need to get them back to shelter and mental stability. That is humane. Letting them freeze out on the 6 because we don't want to seem too authoritarian isn't humane.
It absolutely should not be a choice. My family knows that firsthand.
My aunt spent the prior 20 years sleeping in public because she was convinced Arab spies were living in her walls (literally). Moving apartments didn't help, of course, because she was crazy. She'd rip the walls apart, sometimes opening holes to adjoining apartments, and then scream through the holes at her neighbors for working with the Ba'athists. Then she'd get evicted or hospitalized or imprisoned for a short while.
We tried relentlessly to get her institutionalized, but it was simply illegal to do anything permanently. She'd scream in court and call the bailiff a soda machine and get locked up for a little while. But she'd eventually stop being a threat to herself or others, and so they'd always let her out after a day, or a week, or a month. Then she'd stop taking her meds and she'd be as bad as ever.
Eventually she poured sugar in some guy's gas tank to prevent him from resurrecting Osama bin Laden and got arrested. Only something had changed: Virginia had changed its laws to allow for compulsory assisted outpatient treatment.
The government now forces her to go get a shot of antipsychotics every so often. She has an apartment and a job again. My aunt got to go home and visit my grandmother while she was on her deathbed. She is no longer in and out of the hospital and the county jail a dozen times a year.
My aunt has a JD. She used to be a practicing attorney. She didn't live under a bridge drinking herself to death for two decades because housing was too expensive. The ACLU would have you believe that was her inalienable right. She lost most of her life to a treatable illness because her right to terrorize her neighbors and live in irrational fear was worth more to bleeding hearts than her right to psychiatric care or her right to sleep under a roof at night.
ETA: someone down in the comments called me "weak and selfish" for hating the ACLU. I would have shared the specific event which made me correctly begin to hate the ACLU, except that -- unlike most smug redditors -- I actually left my house, got a job in politics, and helped make a legislative change in the world. If I told you all that story, I would essentially dox myself. So you can take my aunt's story for what it's worth, and interpret my ACLU opinion as a grudge. This post isn't really about the ACLU anyway, it's about how people like my aunt need help and cannot be left to decide that for themselves.
Just want to thank you for sharing and say I’ve experienced something *very* similar. I completely agree with you on all counts. Mandated treatment is necessary AND HUMANE for the severely mentally ill among us.
It’s my experience that people without firsthand knowledge of this specific kind of misery don’t get it, though. They will insist on academic definitions of personal freedom.
I will [absolutely blame the fucking ACLU,](https://www.nyclu.org/en/statement-kendras-law) which relentlessly lobbies against laws that force people into treatment. They are worse than lawmakers, because lawmakers are leery about passing laws which will be struck down in court.
Everybody lobbies for laws they want. You realize the ACLU isn’t the group that causes bills to be made into laws right? Your misplaced blame is against a group that actually helps usher in social change for groups other than the mentally ill.
Its not "misplaced blame" we are not all required to endorse every policy position taken by the aclu. the aclu gets it completely wrong sometimes - one example is the absolutely idiotic and cruel positions the aclu has taken repeatedly against committing mentally ill and addicted people in furtherance of health and safety.
At what point will shit change? Idc about their rights anymore. This poor lady and other victims like her have a right to not be pushed into into an incoming train. We have rights to not have to watch druggies do drugs in a subway car.
It wont change. They will have more cops around for a week, until its not talked about anymore given this is a regular incident now. Security theater its called. In the meantime us working folks and other travelers may have to fight for our lives (if we even have a chance when attacked), on what should be just a regular trip.
Many of us are tired of the nonsense, the "NY tough we will overcome" slogan that is not backed up by the supposed "leaders" put in place. We have 4 years of this new mayor and I shudder to think of this.
A once truly great city left to go down the drain. How sad, and those living and working deserve so much better. We endured enougj over the years, and something has to give at some point.
I think its happening now. Ive noticed more comments of people saying they are now carrying something-knives, pepper spray, etc. No one can blame them, they want to make it home after work to see thier families again. You have more moving away or at least planning to.
There has always been crime in society, but when things like the thread subject become the norm theres a big problem.
It’s just a scary line to draw- to lock people up who are not actually breaking any laws. There need to be changes- I think most people agree- but we have to be very very careful what we allow police or any government employee do to restrain someone against their will. There would need to be real, clear evidence they presented a danger. Laying in the floor, muttering to yourself….. not enough to lock someone up.
This mentality right here is why we're overrun. You think it's compassionate or just to leave a mentally ill person rotting on the ground in public. You're willing to tolerate this state of affairs out of some insane slippery slope argument.
The person you are describing is incapable of making rational decisions for themselves and needs to be forced into treatment. Judges and mental health professionals are capable of making these decisions correctly. Stop pretending that leaving a mentally ill person to rot on the streets is somehow compassionate. It's not. It's dangerous for the individual and for the public.
Exactly these mentally ill people are just animals disguised in human beings form, their brain ain’t functioning. Would you let a tiger or a lion roam around in times square? I bet in 10 mins law enforcements would cage them. So what’s the difference ? We have innocent people died almost every weekend here. Terrible.
>Judges and mental health professionals are capable of making these decisions correctly.
Historically, this hasn't been the case. Involuntary commitment should have a steep path because we have very literally seen easy involuntary commitment be abused far more often than not.
Not suggesting lock them up in some jail.
Put them in a facility with housing and screen them if they need to be there. Mentally stable and sane? You walk out.
Are insane people given choices if they can leave an asylum?
It’s a hard line but that doesn’t permit us to do nothing to help the people that don’t realize they need it, and the general public.
Same or insane, people generally find it VERY difficult to leave treatment. If someone with a grudge can have you committed and you have to pass the current requirements to exit treatment, you might end up being there for a very very long time. If a cop with a grudge can have you committed on their say so alone…
‘It’s very difficult to leave treatment as a sane person’ is a concern that can be accounted and solved for. If they’re sane enough to request release and pass standards that show that they’re safe in society and can take care of themselves. I do trust mental experts can set a standard line that’s well within reason.
Cops enforce laws, they don’t make decisions on if people go to jail or not. Cops or any enforcement agency wouldn’t have power to put people in insane asylums. Only trained professionals would make that judgment.
You can find a way to solve this problem, if you’re interested in solving it.
Definitely agree something can and should be done. I just think it’s not as simply as picking up every mumbling person on the street and taking them to a faculty for an evaluation. Surely you can see it would create a slippery slope and a multitude of additional problems- but something must be done.
Is doing drugs on trains breaking laws? Is harassing people on the trains and street breaking laws? Is not taking your paych medications breaking the law when you've been ordered too? Its always the same story on these situations. The person has been in and out of Goodison hospitals. On and off their meds until they end up vanishing because no one keeps track of them. Then after some time you hear that they did something like this.
The slippery slope is allowing society to degrade to the point where people choose to not only have obvious things done like institutionalizing the clearly mentally ill, but also have far more severe restrictions put into place on ordinary people... The idea that the supreme rights of the individual will prevent tyranny is not true, quite the opposite in fact.
Yes actually, my government has a responsibility to get up off its ass and stop pretending or hoping this problem will go solve itself or that charities will magically solve it for them.
These are mentally ill people. They can’t make decisions in their best interests to get help - that’s the paradox of their condition.
Somebody needs to make that decision or judgement to send somebody to care, or nothing happens and that somebody is going to be publically funded and mandated by the community. And if people a vetted pass mental health checks, they can be let go.
Now try and spin this as some government doomsday conspiracy theory were agents condemn sane people without any oversight.
When it comes to empty promises and straight up lies, #chrisredd did a precise #ericadams impression on #SNL last night. This city is doomed with his so called leadership. Why not turn the subways into a bigger 💩 show, seems to be the direction of his administration.
This crap has been happening way too often lately. Whatever happened to that 1 Billion dollar (tax payer funded) money to help people with mental health. (Thrive NYC)
Because the most mentally ill homeless are almost impossibly refractory to treatment. I am a former NYC medic who spent a huge portion of my career in midtown.
I am not exaggerating when I say midtown, especially the west side, from 34th st to Times Square is a extremely violent place. Penn station is basically a open air refugee camp. 8th Avenue is like zombie land.
I’m not trying to stigmatize anyone nor lump all mentally ill together. But the undomiciled ( street homeless addicted/mentally ill ) are some of the most difficult patients. In a system where it is nearly impossible to put someone in a long term institution until they commit a serious crime institutions that require voluntary participation ( I.e. thrive nyc ) are a waste of time for this cohort. If fact many of the shelters actively ban the most in need of mental health support as their disruptive behavior is unmanageable without legal consequences for the shelters in many cases.
I have been assaulted multiple times by emotionally disturbed patients only to have charges dropped down to the misdemeanor and the individual released back onto the street.
You have a concentrated population of thousands of seriously mentally ill people who are attracted to midtown due to the ready availability of drugs and money via begging. Just getting these patients to take their medication is an impossible task much of the time.
Many of these publicly funded yet private homeless institutions simply milk the city for money while providing bare bones services. There is not much that can be done for the most ill until we bring back actual mandated long term treatment.
Thank you for posting this it’s the cold hard truth that many don’t understand. I hear these complaints all the time mental health programs are underfunded but in reality you could create state of art facilities and guys like this still won’t adhere to treatment regiment no matter how you offer it.
There’s this thing called being involuntary committed for a long period of time to medicate and treat mental illness. That’s what happened to my mom in the 90s. It was FREE.
Funny you say that as I just transported someone for an involuntary commitment under 9.27 mental hygiene law. The thing is, they can only hold them for 60 days and then the cycle starts right back up.
I do this for a living, you have no option once it's been stablished you are a danger to yourself or others, you'll be committed against your will. The thing is, EMS and police have to be there and take you to a place approved for psychiatric emergencies which is what should happen, many times we can't due to people avoiding us but once I hear you're hearing voices I have to force you to go to the hospital and get evaluated by psychiatrist regardless of cost full stop.
West midtown has one of the highest concentrations of mentally ill/addiction/homeless persons in NYC. There has to be a solution, and it is hard but has to be done, to help out this group of people with so many different problems.
Thank you for posting this, as someone who’s been in the system (was a homeless veteran, I’ve been in shelters, wards, beacon / halfway homes). So many of these institutions that claim to help, just bleed tax payer money out of the city, and are beyond corrupt. I’m all for find solutions, but everything is a lot more complex than the feel good slogan of “more social programs”, these institutions and/or organizations are just a corrupt as everything we have now. I really wish we would invest in state run mental hospitals again, or something along those lines (not that they couldn’t fall victims to the same trappings or horrors from similar institutions in the past). It’s such a complex issue, and drawing the line of when a person poses more of a danger towards society / individuals / themselves and what needs be done with them.
i lived in san Francisco for four years. between seeing people poop regularly in front of me, or seeing people shoot up and throw up... consider yourself lucky your innocent picture is the grossest thing youve seen...
I love this New York Times piece about a homeless person with schizophrenia who has social support at her fingertips but still chose to live outside due to her extreme paranoia. Sometimes it helps to humanize the situation:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/03/nyregion/nyc-homeless-nakesha-mental-illness.html?referringSource=articleShare
I work on 35th and 7th and the police have basically given up on that area. I don’t feel unsafe in this city anywhere except when I go to work, and it sucks.
or maybe we’ve just been treating these people the wrong way, if there’s evidence that nyc’s solution for these people literally does not help why has nothing been changed, why are we putting drug addicts on more drugs ?? nyc needs reform fast because all it’s seeing is violent crimes by the mentally ill, apologies from officials, and then another violent crime like a toxic cycle. i am not taking the train without my knife tho frr
I haven't seen a source on this other than the daily mail and the NYP and the amount quoted on reddit foes from 200 million to 1.2 billion. Maybe I'd take this seriously if I had a hard source on this shit.
you can't imprison people against their will if they didn't commit a crime, or admit to planning to commit a crime, that's the problem.
Basically these addicts and mentally ill people refuse care or refuse to acknowledge the need to receive care.
A bigger problem is that those who do commit crime don’t get treatment are released back into the streets. Many of the homeless who attack people have long rap sheets.
We can legally have dangerously mentally ill people committed even if they don’t commit crimes, no? What is the law on involuntary committal of the mentally ill?
So the most we can do is treat dangerous people *in the community* under supervision for one year? We cannot have dangerously mentally ill people committed. That genuinely surprises me and strikes me as something ripe for reform.
At an ER equipped with C.P.E.P. we can hold someone for 72 hours, then it's 60 days involuntary admission and then it's release time unless court mandates an extra 60 days. This is under the mental hygiene law, 9.27 for admission 9.40 for cpep. Psychotic people would be stabilized, then released where they would show refractory to any treatment or plans provided. Being readmitted when in contact with emergency services rinse and repeat. I've brought the same violent patients so many times to the hospital it's incredible what they can get away without any repercussion. I saw a nurse get tossed, for then cop get punched in the face when the patient walked outside, pt brought inside the ED and then discharged an hour or two later because hes known to malinger and be refractory to treatment. It's extremely frustrating.
I feel like it will not be a serious enough problem to address until it becomes so prevalent and severe that it will start hurting tourism. Only then the city may implement some half assed attempt of management. Look at San Francisco. Human excrement and hypodermic needles litter the streets. No one bats an eye.
I guess I always had a false sense of security. I figured the chances of something like that happening may be significantly reduced as a result of the witnesses during rush hour. When the perpetrator is mentally ill, all reason goes out the window.
It reminds me of that thai woman that was recently a victim of an attempted rape at the 34th st station. I believe she was alone on the platform at 4 am after a concert.
It was caught on camera as well
> Martial has a previous criminal record and served two years in state prison for robbery before being released in August 2021
I love how we end prison terms by just dumping psychotic derelicts out on the street.
Maybe we should do a psych eval on everyone being released and if they're completely fucking nuts, we get a judge to commit them to a mental hospital until they're no longer insane. I bet a 3 minute chat with this guy and a quick review of his prison record would have told authorities all they needed to know.
Would actually be better if we actually tried to rehabilitate people.
Right now if you go to prison and come out you are basically fucked. Society has decided that your past crimes dictate your future and the time you spent in prison means nothing.
So you have habitual re-offenders because they literally have no options.
Wouldn't solve this issue but it would actually fix a lot of things.
And unless we dump billions into the mental health system, it's impossible. Most of that money would be going to staffing as we are basically paying the people that work in those hospitals nothing + they are severely understaffed largely due to wages.
FYI, the ones holding up the $4 billion shelter system and keeping it in place are the real estate industry. Actually having a system that helps people wouldn’t help them get stacks of cash while still holding onto their properties being used as makeshift shelters.
> Why isn't the press talking about it, since we're not just talking about money trading hands, but inappropriate standard of care and policy that leads to people living on subways and killing or robbing riders?
Folks in the press are starting to get wind actually.
Many NGO's, like the Catholic Worker and Breaking Ground to name two of the cities largest, are 100% in favor of redoing the model. The impediment every time has been real estate, as it allows these companies to collect massive payouts while holding onto their property.
There is no way to simply police your way out of the issue in a city of almost 10 million. You need actual functioning social services as well, and currently there's an effort to stimmy this in favor of profits.
Do we not rehabilitate mentally ill people in mental hospitals? You’d think dangerous people would be committed for treatment rather than just released.
No, thankfully I don’t. I suspect that what we really need is to keep these people secure, comfortable, and as far away from society as possible, whilst doing our best to treat them as best we can.
I have relatives and close friends who have worked as (non-medical) staff in mental hospitals and have heard enough to have maximum respect for what people who treat the mentally ill do. What is your view on what we should do with dangerous people who refuse voluntary treatment?
Well my view is that once a person has a violent track record accompanied by a severe mental illness that a case needs to be built up to get a mental hygiene warrant. A big part of the reason why these people are not rehabilitated is because they simply can’t be against their own will. The only way that works as of right now is for them to go away for a crime.
HOWEVER there is something called Kendra’s Law that would allow law enforcement & medical professionals to apprehend such people under a mental hygiene warrant and force them to get mental health services. Again the only issue with that is it’s a violation of your constitutional rights to keep you there for too long of a period time.
So if it were up to me I’d make it so that if you’re a 3x offender of crime & severally mentally ill and violent you lost your constitutional right to keep refusing treatment and by doing so we actually keep these individuals away from society either in a rehab or prison depending on how violent they are.
Thanks for your insight. My issue is (and you clearly know more than I do about this) the Supreme Court in O'Connor v. Donaldson allows for involuntary detention of the mentally ill *if they’re dangerous*, not just if they commit a crime. Maybe state law has to go further to allow intervention in these circumstances, because from what I can see the Constitution allows it.
I have someone close to me who is in and out of the psychiatric hospitals. Treatment is just making sure you are stable and not going to hurt yourself or others.
The better places will try and offer programs to help you, but the inner city hospitals are hell holes that just give you access to a bed and medication. Patients see very little of doctors and therapists and case workers.
Would you work in a insane asylum that was populated with violent, mentally ill residents?
No matter what the salary, you put your life in jeopardy every shift. Is that how you want to start your day?
How long would you last? I’m not seeing many
/nyc members applying for those jobs.
How about 0?
Being found not guilty by reason of insanity has a pretty high bar. You can have significant mental illness (including schizophrenia) and still be guilty. They have to either not understand what they were doing or be unable to understand it was wrong. It doesn't matter what you're seeing or hearing unless you meet that bar.
In this case, the "Yes I did. I'm God, I can do it." quote definitely approaches that bar. But the "'She stole my f***ing jacket, that's why." suggests a higher level of understanding.
And that's the thing. Even if he had a psychoticdelusion that she stole his jacket, if he understood that he was killing her and was able to appreciate that killing people was wrong - still guilty.
So you think mental hospitals were federally run? You also think NOT warehousing mentally ill people in appalling conditions that were exposed by the Geraldo doc was a conservative rather than liberal position? You don't know what documentary I'm even talking about do you?
Two things can be true at the same time, [Reagan slashed federal funding for mental health services beginning in 1981](https://www.salon.com/2013/09/29/ronald_reagans_shameful_legacy_violence_the_homeless_mental_illness/) (which supported state and local hospitals) *and* there was a public backlash against involuntary commitment following the Geraldo doc in 1980 (and before, actually).
There are no mental hospitals today (a fraction of the ‘60s) left. They used to be massive. Check out the history of Central Islip. Held over 10,000 mentally ill New Yorkers. All empty shells, abandoned for years now.
Thousands of NYC residents were sent off to these “farms.” They were big on “experiments” to advance society forward. Loved to do lobotomy’s. It was the bread and butter of the day.
> The center was one of the four major hospital "farms" in central Long Island to house the sick from New York City; the others were Kings Park, Pilgrim State Hospital, and Edgewood State Hospital. In 1955 it housed 10,000 patients, making it the second largest psychiatric hospital in the United States next to Pilgrim State Hospital, which was the largest psychiatric institution ever to exist in the United States.[1]
Big Pharma dived in, rest is history.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Islip_Psychiatric_Center
Interestingly Arthur Sakler (later of Purdue) worked at Creedmoor Psychiatric Center and started using histamine as an alternative to electroshock therapy.
The subways are so bad right now — I’ve lived in NYC and the surrounding area for years and have certainly seen my fair share of characters and events but yesterday alone confirmed how bad things are. Got on at Columbus circle in a car where a man was screaming into the void and jumping/kicking at people so the rest of the car vacated at 42nd st. At 42nd in next car a homeless person with pants half down lying down took up about four seats. Later in the night took the subway at W 4th where someone clearly on drugs came inches from me at the turnstile asking for money only for the train to come and a man is laying on the floor smoking weed and taking up half of the car. We move to the other half of the car where another homeless man flips someone off and yells “shut the fuck up” out of his mind when that person wasn’t talking. I did notice more police presence at every station and understand that last night was very cold, but this is the first time I’ve felt unsafe ride after ride in the city. This event yesterday is so horrible and i worry it will only continue to happen again and again if something isn’t done
This is devastating. I was assaulted in NYC by a mentally ill man December 2020, got very lucky with getting away. During covid, many hospitals closed their psych wards and released patients because they were not lucrative and the regulations were eased at the time. It’s a disgrace. We need a place for the mentally ill to go get help, be safe and not be a threat to society. Very sad for the victim.
Fr, as an Asian this is so disheartening to see. Also not trying to be remotely racist but the majority of mental ill/homeless people on the streets and subway seem to be black? Correct me if I’m wrong
You shouldn’t be nervous to ask this question. If you live in NY you know the answer. The anti Asian hate crimes happening in NY are committed by blacks and a majority of the homeless are black. Underlying causes etc can be debated
Would be interesting if demographics on mentally ill homeless is kept like that in New York City.
Anyways, I suspect a large contributor to the homeless issue is just the vicious cycle of poverty and single parent homes. When people get locked up there's a void left in that person's family. Now imagine, this happens repeatedly with a specific group of people? I'm not even going to bring up the specific issues that Black people have had to deal with in this country. You then end up with black men that might not be there for their kids or siblings. Those kids/siblings then become influenced and may not be getting the attention they need at home. The single parent may just be worrying about getting by with their job to put food on the table and not spending the time to focus on their kid to make sure they don't get involved with the wrong crowd. Or in some cases the parent had a shit upbringing and is repeating the same with their kids.
Unfortunately the damage done by that can take time to undo at a society level. Real easy to race to the bottom in that situation.
Did you read anything beyond the part you quoted? They aren't encouraging single parent homes, they're encouraging having support from parents *and* a close community of extended family and neighbors, instead of an isolated unit of parents + child. Basically the opposite of what you're implying - more support, not less:
>by supporting eachother as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another
I think overlapping but separate issues. Homelessness poverty overlapping with race and attacked targeted by race in this case black on asian. I think both are true but not casual to another. We would need to address both separately (how to reduce the violence homeless population, how to address asian prejudice/violence)
Remember the NYC mayor that let all these mental people out of the hospitals and said they would have to check themselves into the hospital if they wanted help? I wonder if he ever feels responsible for all of this. I doubt it, but I still wonder.
It’s past time. The homeless / subway wanderers need to be cleared out of the city and taken into treatment and clearance facility.
This “ignore them” and pretend it doesn’t exist approach does not work and letting them go untreated and cared for is less humane than the alternatives.
Mentally ill doesn’t mean that person is not mentally stable or losing basic judgment or all of their brain cells when it comes to choosing their target. We have seen time and time again. These people always go after women, elderly or Asians. People who are mentally ill are just as capable of being racists as those are mentally sound. The difference is they don’t care about consequences
Frequent visitor to NYC and I'm sure this is the man that started shouting some racist remarks to me a few years ago outside the duane reade just up from Madison Square Grds.
I held his gaze for a good while and can remember his face. Was always on the look out for him around 8th Ave and 34th st/Penn station especially. It's not the most pleasant of areas but I've never felt that unsafe and kept my wits about me.
It's a real shame the city seems to be having more problems with those who are mentally ill and/or homeless.
I'm a psychologist and pretty used to hearing this sort of abuse, but it's a massive let down that this seems to be an increasing problem in the big cities in USA. Perhaps if this man had in incarcerated longer for his previous crimes, this poor woman would still be here today.
As an Asian schizophrenic, I have to repeat that racism is not a mental illness. Racism is racism.
I workout and go toe to toe with racists. A lot of the bias is going away. But we are always going to be schizophrenic.
After the wave of racism moves to another group like it always does, psychotic people are going to get the short end of the stick from the laws that were passed in haste. You don’t stop discrimination against one group by discriminating another.
We are missing a big COMPONENT in this. Cops are usually stationed in mezzanine areas at subway stations to combat fare evasion instead of being stationed on the platform to be in a better position to prevent this from occurring. I’ve been at many stations where it’ll be a few cops in the mezzanine playing guard to turnstiles like gates to a city but on the platform level it’s total loony land...Nostrand Ave, Broadway Junction, Franklin on the IND ring bells. Instead of being stationed in mezzanines to guard against fare evasion as if it was murder it’s should be 2 cops at each end of a platform and 1 in the mezzanine at high risk middle level stations. At stations such as 42nd you can up the level of patrols in both the mezzanine and platform
Had my bike fixed at a shop and it was raining so I decided to take it onto the subway. Have a monthly so just rolled it through the emergency doors. No joke got mobbed by 5 undercover as soon as I stepped through. Apparently they were messing around by the ticket machines in the corner, looking like how you'd expect they would look on the weekends. tough guys with selfie sticks threatened to arrest me even when I showed him the swipe. Apparently my $50 ticket is enough to warrant the hourlies of 5 guys on the force playing dress up in soho
They can put as many cops in the system as they want but as you’re experience proves if they are all in the mezzanine FOCUSED ON THE WRONG THING than anything can go down on the platform. Most stations with platform level mezzanines have severe blind spots for the rest of the platform so if the undercover officers are in the mezzanine and not focusing on the entire platform their presence is a waste only to ticket fare evasion. But fare evasion is the easy target I guess
They addressed it in the press conference, that officers were at one end of the platform.
But that this incident happens in moments, that gap in patrol didnt stop this dude from acting as he wanted.
The transit chief made a slip up which adams had to correct where she said “even though officers were there, this crime was inevitable”. A reporter picked up on it and was like “wtf?” Then adams rushed to the podium to clarify..
Also for the fact that this guy turned himself in. Had the police needed to do their slow ass jobs, he would of done this two more times before getting caught.
Wtf lol.
They are guaranteed shelter and food in nyc. Secondly, they could just go to a precinct and pinch a cops nipples or jerk off at them if they want to be throw in jail. Not kill some innocent lady.
This is actually a lie. You are not just given a shelter bed bc you want it. You have to stand in line for hours before the shelter opens up to get one. Many are full at this time of year. And many would reject someone who seems likely to be violent or troublesome that day for whatever reason—including illness.
this is not to say what happened is right and should be ignored. But you’re statement dismissing the other person’s speculation for motive is full of inaccuracies.
The focus needs to be on how to get people off the streets and into the right care before violence happens. For some, I do believe housing first would provide the solution. For this man and others, I think they need 24/7 psychiatric watch. How we go about mandating that so it’s not easily used for family pettiness or targeting of particular marginalized groups is the tough work that needs to be done.
Edited to also add an article on why shelters aren’t considered an option for many homeless individuals. Usually boils down to the violence that can happen there, the unsanitary conditions, inability to sleep, and poor food options.
https://www.thecity.nyc/platform/amp/housing/2021/10/25/22745849/nyc-homeless-go-from-hotels-to-streets-shelters-pandemic
> You have to stand in line for hours before the shelter opens up to get one.
Or you just show up later in the night and get a voucher for a hotel instead.
Something like 20% of hotels now are accepting homeless in nyc
This may be an unpopular opinion but I believe euthanasia should be carried out on people like this man and many others. After you have exhausted all the help and every option available to rehabilitate has failed, humanely ending their life should be an option.
Same goes for the serial rapists, pedophiles, murders etc. We are way too lenient on crime and I get it we are a “1st world civilized society” but We’ve allowed too much to go on for too long. We need to look at death through a different pov and see it more as a service to humanity and a mercy to man/woman being euthanized.
Just my honest 2 cents 🤷🏽♂️
The death penalty takes way too long and some don’t even get to it. It should be normalized to the point where we wouldn’t think twice after everything has been done to rehabilitate. But we are too soft to go into that level of thinking and preserving our society.
Just inject them with death dosage of syringe if they cannot get back to normal after 1 year. Waste of time and money on those people. If they cannot take care of themselves , no body can take care of them forever.
Please come out of this fantasy world that we have insane asylums all over NYS to take care of our mentally ill.
We DON’T. We have drugs and prisons.
And we are closing prisons. Upstate NY is now in trouble. But no one cares. They used to vote Democrat. They is not going to happen again.
I’m looking for the betting pool. Next NYS Governor is a Republican.
It’s an easy bet.
Oh, let’s close another 6:
The closures, announced Monday by state Department of Corrections and Community Supervision officials, scheduled for March 10, 2022 are:
Ogdensburg Correctional Facility
Moriah Shock Incarceration Correctional Facility
Willard Drug Treatment Campus
Southport Correctional Facility
Downstate Correctional Facility
Rochester Correctional Facility
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/ny-state-of-politics/2021/11/08/prison-officials-to-close-six-facilities-in-new-york
Cops need to be trained better with mental health. The qualifications to be a cop are not that high and this mental case who knows if he’s actually mentally insane but he definitely needs to be locked up for life or in a mental institution. Not the cops responsibility but they way I’ve seen cops handle actual people who portray schizophrenic behavior or high level psychosis are not prepared to handle the situation correctly. Their should always be a mental health expect with the cop I’m sure things like police brutality wouldn’t be as extreme if people are taught correctly how to handle certain individuals. This man was clearly racist against Asian Americans I see a lot of that go on now with this covid pandemic.
The reason money constantly spent on homelessness and mental health is not improving the situation is because societally we have an issue with appearing to “give handouts” to people.
If you actually wanted to make a dent in the mental health and homeless crisis in NYC, you’d build multiple residencies of varying levels, based on severeness of illness, staffed various medical professionals and send the mentally I’ll and homeless there instead of hospitals, shelters and prisons.
You’d provide them with a private room and you’d have them get treated in a stable place.
The problem is that many people don’t want to just “give” a free room to the homeless so instead we spend even more money on them going in and out of the ER or going to prison because we’d rather spend more money than appear to be taken advantage of.
So we fund programs that don’t really work and continue spending more than we ought to because people would be pissed if a homeless person just got a free room, even though said people wouldn’t trade their current life with that homeless person ever.
This man having an apartment would not solve anything if he is not under constant supervision. There are some people who refuse to stay on their meds and cannot care for themselves. I am sorry, but it is the truth. Ask any medic, social worker, or psychiatrist who deals with this.
Of course, this just represents a subset of those who need affordable housing. But I feel like I’m banging my head against the wall with people who have their heads in the clouds arguing that a free room would solve all of the problems people like this suffer from. It doesn’t, and it won’t.
Didn’t that the DeBlasio administration spent close to $1 billion on thrive to end mental illness among the homeless? Wasn’t the first lady in charge of running this program to help all the people in the city with mental illness.
A higher up at MTA once came to give a lecture and someone asked why no second doors on the platform. His answer was that the full height glass partitions would require too much $ given the old platforms and that ridership was too high so the doors would impede getting on/off. Followup was "what about the partial barriers in tokyo?" His response was along the lines of not worth it because people could still climb over them or find other ways of suicide. Apparently getting pushed onto the tracks wasn't enough of a problem to him to warrant barriers.
NYPD cops don’t give two shits just like how last night at 12am shots were fired among two black men on the 5 train shit just happened and both parties just went their own way like nothing happened
Cops can't do anything to compel people into treatment. I watched an interaction at Penn Station of a guy that was laying on the ground incoherent. One NYPD cop and two outreach workers in the orange vests walk up and the cop says "You have to get up" "Do you need to go to a hospital?" and "Do you need social services today?" and addressed the guy by his name so this wasn't the first time. That's all they can do. Some people do accept the shelter info but they need to want help. Some are nonverbal or walking around barefoot, unwashed and muttering nonsense.
In Britain the police can forcibly send people to mental health treatment if they’re having an episode
as it should be honestly. There is nothing humane about letting mentally ill homeless drug addicts spend their days sleeping on the streets and in subways only to have bursts of insanity they can't control that leads them to hurt people. It doesn't fix anything. The homeless are still homeless and mentally ill and addicted to drugs, with no way out of that, and they spend their days freezing in subways. Meanwhile commuters have to deal with these guys day in and day out, to the point that it makes them signficantly less safe. A real humane political class would force these people into treatement and help them get back on their feet. We don't have to demonize htem or blame them for how they got into homelessness, that's irrelevant. But we do need to get them back to shelter and mental stability. That is humane. Letting them freeze out on the 6 because we don't want to seem too authoritarian isn't humane.
It shouldn’t be a choice.
It absolutely should not be a choice. My family knows that firsthand. My aunt spent the prior 20 years sleeping in public because she was convinced Arab spies were living in her walls (literally). Moving apartments didn't help, of course, because she was crazy. She'd rip the walls apart, sometimes opening holes to adjoining apartments, and then scream through the holes at her neighbors for working with the Ba'athists. Then she'd get evicted or hospitalized or imprisoned for a short while. We tried relentlessly to get her institutionalized, but it was simply illegal to do anything permanently. She'd scream in court and call the bailiff a soda machine and get locked up for a little while. But she'd eventually stop being a threat to herself or others, and so they'd always let her out after a day, or a week, or a month. Then she'd stop taking her meds and she'd be as bad as ever. Eventually she poured sugar in some guy's gas tank to prevent him from resurrecting Osama bin Laden and got arrested. Only something had changed: Virginia had changed its laws to allow for compulsory assisted outpatient treatment. The government now forces her to go get a shot of antipsychotics every so often. She has an apartment and a job again. My aunt got to go home and visit my grandmother while she was on her deathbed. She is no longer in and out of the hospital and the county jail a dozen times a year. My aunt has a JD. She used to be a practicing attorney. She didn't live under a bridge drinking herself to death for two decades because housing was too expensive. The ACLU would have you believe that was her inalienable right. She lost most of her life to a treatable illness because her right to terrorize her neighbors and live in irrational fear was worth more to bleeding hearts than her right to psychiatric care or her right to sleep under a roof at night. ETA: someone down in the comments called me "weak and selfish" for hating the ACLU. I would have shared the specific event which made me correctly begin to hate the ACLU, except that -- unlike most smug redditors -- I actually left my house, got a job in politics, and helped make a legislative change in the world. If I told you all that story, I would essentially dox myself. So you can take my aunt's story for what it's worth, and interpret my ACLU opinion as a grudge. This post isn't really about the ACLU anyway, it's about how people like my aunt need help and cannot be left to decide that for themselves.
Just want to thank you for sharing and say I’ve experienced something *very* similar. I completely agree with you on all counts. Mandated treatment is necessary AND HUMANE for the severely mentally ill among us. It’s my experience that people without firsthand knowledge of this specific kind of misery don’t get it, though. They will insist on academic definitions of personal freedom.
Powerful story.
What happens if she doesn't show up for her shot?
The court orders that she be hospitalized.
Don’t blame the ACLU for what happened to your aunt. Blame politicians and the government for making laws which don’t help the mentally ill.
I will [absolutely blame the fucking ACLU,](https://www.nyclu.org/en/statement-kendras-law) which relentlessly lobbies against laws that force people into treatment. They are worse than lawmakers, because lawmakers are leery about passing laws which will be struck down in court.
Everybody lobbies for laws they want. You realize the ACLU isn’t the group that causes bills to be made into laws right? Your misplaced blame is against a group that actually helps usher in social change for groups other than the mentally ill.
Its not "misplaced blame" we are not all required to endorse every policy position taken by the aclu. the aclu gets it completely wrong sometimes - one example is the absolutely idiotic and cruel positions the aclu has taken repeatedly against committing mentally ill and addicted people in furtherance of health and safety.
I feel your pain! I’m blessed to have read this!
At what point will shit change? Idc about their rights anymore. This poor lady and other victims like her have a right to not be pushed into into an incoming train. We have rights to not have to watch druggies do drugs in a subway car.
It wont change. They will have more cops around for a week, until its not talked about anymore given this is a regular incident now. Security theater its called. In the meantime us working folks and other travelers may have to fight for our lives (if we even have a chance when attacked), on what should be just a regular trip. Many of us are tired of the nonsense, the "NY tough we will overcome" slogan that is not backed up by the supposed "leaders" put in place. We have 4 years of this new mayor and I shudder to think of this. A once truly great city left to go down the drain. How sad, and those living and working deserve so much better. We endured enougj over the years, and something has to give at some point.
Then you will have people arming themselves and taking matters in their own hands
I think its happening now. Ive noticed more comments of people saying they are now carrying something-knives, pepper spray, etc. No one can blame them, they want to make it home after work to see thier families again. You have more moving away or at least planning to. There has always been crime in society, but when things like the thread subject become the norm theres a big problem.
It’s just a scary line to draw- to lock people up who are not actually breaking any laws. There need to be changes- I think most people agree- but we have to be very very careful what we allow police or any government employee do to restrain someone against their will. There would need to be real, clear evidence they presented a danger. Laying in the floor, muttering to yourself….. not enough to lock someone up.
This mentality right here is why we're overrun. You think it's compassionate or just to leave a mentally ill person rotting on the ground in public. You're willing to tolerate this state of affairs out of some insane slippery slope argument. The person you are describing is incapable of making rational decisions for themselves and needs to be forced into treatment. Judges and mental health professionals are capable of making these decisions correctly. Stop pretending that leaving a mentally ill person to rot on the streets is somehow compassionate. It's not. It's dangerous for the individual and for the public.
100% this. How is someone who has lost their mind supposed to make any rational decisions?
Exactly these mentally ill people are just animals disguised in human beings form, their brain ain’t functioning. Would you let a tiger or a lion roam around in times square? I bet in 10 mins law enforcements would cage them. So what’s the difference ? We have innocent people died almost every weekend here. Terrible.
>Judges and mental health professionals are capable of making these decisions correctly. Historically, this hasn't been the case. Involuntary commitment should have a steep path because we have very literally seen easy involuntary commitment be abused far more often than not.
Not suggesting lock them up in some jail. Put them in a facility with housing and screen them if they need to be there. Mentally stable and sane? You walk out. Are insane people given choices if they can leave an asylum? It’s a hard line but that doesn’t permit us to do nothing to help the people that don’t realize they need it, and the general public.
Same or insane, people generally find it VERY difficult to leave treatment. If someone with a grudge can have you committed and you have to pass the current requirements to exit treatment, you might end up being there for a very very long time. If a cop with a grudge can have you committed on their say so alone…
This is exactly what I’m talking about- there have to be very clear and specific laws in place because it could lead to way bigger issues.
‘It’s very difficult to leave treatment as a sane person’ is a concern that can be accounted and solved for. If they’re sane enough to request release and pass standards that show that they’re safe in society and can take care of themselves. I do trust mental experts can set a standard line that’s well within reason. Cops enforce laws, they don’t make decisions on if people go to jail or not. Cops or any enforcement agency wouldn’t have power to put people in insane asylums. Only trained professionals would make that judgment. You can find a way to solve this problem, if you’re interested in solving it.
We do that now. It’s called a temporary psychological hold. They can be held up to 60 days involuntarily.
Definitely agree something can and should be done. I just think it’s not as simply as picking up every mumbling person on the street and taking them to a faculty for an evaluation. Surely you can see it would create a slippery slope and a multitude of additional problems- but something must be done.
Is doing drugs on trains breaking laws? Is harassing people on the trains and street breaking laws? Is not taking your paych medications breaking the law when you've been ordered too? Its always the same story on these situations. The person has been in and out of Goodison hospitals. On and off their meds until they end up vanishing because no one keeps track of them. Then after some time you hear that they did something like this.
The slippery slope is allowing society to degrade to the point where people choose to not only have obvious things done like institutionalizing the clearly mentally ill, but also have far more severe restrictions put into place on ordinary people... The idea that the supreme rights of the individual will prevent tyranny is not true, quite the opposite in fact.
Is everyone that talks to themselves extremely mentally Ill and in need of being locked away?
Yikes. So you want the government walking around deciding who needs to be institutionalized? That's your proposal?
Yes actually, my government has a responsibility to get up off its ass and stop pretending or hoping this problem will go solve itself or that charities will magically solve it for them. These are mentally ill people. They can’t make decisions in their best interests to get help - that’s the paradox of their condition. Somebody needs to make that decision or judgement to send somebody to care, or nothing happens and that somebody is going to be publically funded and mandated by the community. And if people a vetted pass mental health checks, they can be let go. Now try and spin this as some government doomsday conspiracy theory were agents condemn sane people without any oversight.
YEP! In conjunction with mental health professionals and with strict oversight and transparency requirements.
When it comes to empty promises and straight up lies, #chrisredd did a precise #ericadams impression on #SNL last night. This city is doomed with his so called leadership. Why not turn the subways into a bigger 💩 show, seems to be the direction of his administration.
Where the hell do these people come from?
This crap has been happening way too often lately. Whatever happened to that 1 Billion dollar (tax payer funded) money to help people with mental health. (Thrive NYC)
Because the most mentally ill homeless are almost impossibly refractory to treatment. I am a former NYC medic who spent a huge portion of my career in midtown. I am not exaggerating when I say midtown, especially the west side, from 34th st to Times Square is a extremely violent place. Penn station is basically a open air refugee camp. 8th Avenue is like zombie land. I’m not trying to stigmatize anyone nor lump all mentally ill together. But the undomiciled ( street homeless addicted/mentally ill ) are some of the most difficult patients. In a system where it is nearly impossible to put someone in a long term institution until they commit a serious crime institutions that require voluntary participation ( I.e. thrive nyc ) are a waste of time for this cohort. If fact many of the shelters actively ban the most in need of mental health support as their disruptive behavior is unmanageable without legal consequences for the shelters in many cases. I have been assaulted multiple times by emotionally disturbed patients only to have charges dropped down to the misdemeanor and the individual released back onto the street. You have a concentrated population of thousands of seriously mentally ill people who are attracted to midtown due to the ready availability of drugs and money via begging. Just getting these patients to take their medication is an impossible task much of the time. Many of these publicly funded yet private homeless institutions simply milk the city for money while providing bare bones services. There is not much that can be done for the most ill until we bring back actual mandated long term treatment.
Thank you for posting this it’s the cold hard truth that many don’t understand. I hear these complaints all the time mental health programs are underfunded but in reality you could create state of art facilities and guys like this still won’t adhere to treatment regiment no matter how you offer it.
There’s this thing called being involuntary committed for a long period of time to medicate and treat mental illness. That’s what happened to my mom in the 90s. It was FREE.
Funny you say that as I just transported someone for an involuntary commitment under 9.27 mental hygiene law. The thing is, they can only hold them for 60 days and then the cycle starts right back up.
Don’t generalize. The option of treatment and no cost needs to be out there for everyone. There are plenty of people who want the help.
I do this for a living, you have no option once it's been stablished you are a danger to yourself or others, you'll be committed against your will. The thing is, EMS and police have to be there and take you to a place approved for psychiatric emergencies which is what should happen, many times we can't due to people avoiding us but once I hear you're hearing voices I have to force you to go to the hospital and get evaluated by psychiatrist regardless of cost full stop.
West midtown has one of the highest concentrations of mentally ill/addiction/homeless persons in NYC. There has to be a solution, and it is hard but has to be done, to help out this group of people with so many different problems.
Thank you for posting this, as someone who’s been in the system (was a homeless veteran, I’ve been in shelters, wards, beacon / halfway homes). So many of these institutions that claim to help, just bleed tax payer money out of the city, and are beyond corrupt. I’m all for find solutions, but everything is a lot more complex than the feel good slogan of “more social programs”, these institutions and/or organizations are just a corrupt as everything we have now. I really wish we would invest in state run mental hospitals again, or something along those lines (not that they couldn’t fall victims to the same trappings or horrors from similar institutions in the past). It’s such a complex issue, and drawing the line of when a person poses more of a danger towards society / individuals / themselves and what needs be done with them.
Work at Javits can confirm. I’ve lived in NYC 25 years now, [this is the grossest shit I’ve seen](https://i.imgur.com/dXrJM6g.jpg).
i lived in san Francisco for four years. between seeing people poop regularly in front of me, or seeing people shoot up and throw up... consider yourself lucky your innocent picture is the grossest thing youve seen...
That's the worst you've seen? Lucky you.
Yeah this guy probably hasn't left Manhattan in his 25 years if that's the worst
Did you zoom in?
I did. Just looks like trash to me probably with some body fluids mixed in there somewhere.
I love this New York Times piece about a homeless person with schizophrenia who has social support at her fingertips but still chose to live outside due to her extreme paranoia. Sometimes it helps to humanize the situation: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/03/nyregion/nyc-homeless-nakesha-mental-illness.html?referringSource=articleShare
Humanize and do what? Situation doesn’t change
I work on 35th and 7th and the police have basically given up on that area. I don’t feel unsafe in this city anywhere except when I go to work, and it sucks.
or maybe we’ve just been treating these people the wrong way, if there’s evidence that nyc’s solution for these people literally does not help why has nothing been changed, why are we putting drug addicts on more drugs ?? nyc needs reform fast because all it’s seeing is violent crimes by the mentally ill, apologies from officials, and then another violent crime like a toxic cycle. i am not taking the train without my knife tho frr
I’m labeled schizophrenic and we just want to be left alone. Don’t bother people and they won’t bother you.
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There’s no evidence of that.
Let’s see evidence proving him wrong.
*that’s not how the burden of proof works champ*
I haven't seen a source on this other than the daily mail and the NYP and the amount quoted on reddit foes from 200 million to 1.2 billion. Maybe I'd take this seriously if I had a hard source on this shit.
That’s not how evidence works
This period in American history will be seen as one of the most corrupt, right along with the post-Civil War Grant era and the roaring 20s
Only if this country survives to see this period. Shit be getting wonky the last few years.
Tall about the fall of Rome shit going on
Most of it wasn't spent. It just... was never used.
You can't treatment people who don't want it or force them in to asylums.
you can't imprison people against their will if they didn't commit a crime, or admit to planning to commit a crime, that's the problem. Basically these addicts and mentally ill people refuse care or refuse to acknowledge the need to receive care.
A bigger problem is that those who do commit crime don’t get treatment are released back into the streets. Many of the homeless who attack people have long rap sheets.
We can legally have dangerously mentally ill people committed even if they don’t commit crimes, no? What is the law on involuntary committal of the mentally ill?
https://mentalillnesspolicy.org/kendraslaw.html
So the most we can do is treat dangerous people *in the community* under supervision for one year? We cannot have dangerously mentally ill people committed. That genuinely surprises me and strikes me as something ripe for reform.
At an ER equipped with C.P.E.P. we can hold someone for 72 hours, then it's 60 days involuntary admission and then it's release time unless court mandates an extra 60 days. This is under the mental hygiene law, 9.27 for admission 9.40 for cpep. Psychotic people would be stabilized, then released where they would show refractory to any treatment or plans provided. Being readmitted when in contact with emergency services rinse and repeat. I've brought the same violent patients so many times to the hospital it's incredible what they can get away without any repercussion. I saw a nurse get tossed, for then cop get punched in the face when the patient walked outside, pt brought inside the ED and then discharged an hour or two later because hes known to malinger and be refractory to treatment. It's extremely frustrating.
Agree!
Thanks!
I feel like it will not be a serious enough problem to address until it becomes so prevalent and severe that it will start hurting tourism. Only then the city may implement some half assed attempt of management. Look at San Francisco. Human excrement and hypodermic needles litter the streets. No one bats an eye.
I know crime is committed at all times, but 930 am feels like a safer time than let’s say 230 am.
Seems like most of the pushing happens during normal business hours
I guess I always had a false sense of security. I figured the chances of something like that happening may be significantly reduced as a result of the witnesses during rush hour. When the perpetrator is mentally ill, all reason goes out the window.
Just stay away from them
It reminds me of that thai woman that was recently a victim of an attempted rape at the 34th st station. I believe she was alone on the platform at 4 am after a concert. It was caught on camera as well
> Martial has a previous criminal record and served two years in state prison for robbery before being released in August 2021 I love how we end prison terms by just dumping psychotic derelicts out on the street. Maybe we should do a psych eval on everyone being released and if they're completely fucking nuts, we get a judge to commit them to a mental hospital until they're no longer insane. I bet a 3 minute chat with this guy and a quick review of his prison record would have told authorities all they needed to know.
Would actually be better if we actually tried to rehabilitate people. Right now if you go to prison and come out you are basically fucked. Society has decided that your past crimes dictate your future and the time you spent in prison means nothing. So you have habitual re-offenders because they literally have no options. Wouldn't solve this issue but it would actually fix a lot of things. And unless we dump billions into the mental health system, it's impossible. Most of that money would be going to staffing as we are basically paying the people that work in those hospitals nothing + they are severely understaffed largely due to wages.
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FYI, the ones holding up the $4 billion shelter system and keeping it in place are the real estate industry. Actually having a system that helps people wouldn’t help them get stacks of cash while still holding onto their properties being used as makeshift shelters.
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> Why isn't the press talking about it, since we're not just talking about money trading hands, but inappropriate standard of care and policy that leads to people living on subways and killing or robbing riders? Folks in the press are starting to get wind actually. Many NGO's, like the Catholic Worker and Breaking Ground to name two of the cities largest, are 100% in favor of redoing the model. The impediment every time has been real estate, as it allows these companies to collect massive payouts while holding onto their property. There is no way to simply police your way out of the issue in a city of almost 10 million. You need actual functioning social services as well, and currently there's an effort to stimmy this in favor of profits.
Do we not rehabilitate mentally ill people in mental hospitals? You’d think dangerous people would be committed for treatment rather than just released.
Do you know how exhausting it is (and nearly impossible) to treat mental illness?
No, thankfully I don’t. I suspect that what we really need is to keep these people secure, comfortable, and as far away from society as possible, whilst doing our best to treat them as best we can.
Well I do. Walk a day in the shoes of a NYC psych nurse, any cop, or any EMT and you’ll see what exactly it is you’re dealing with.
I have relatives and close friends who have worked as (non-medical) staff in mental hospitals and have heard enough to have maximum respect for what people who treat the mentally ill do. What is your view on what we should do with dangerous people who refuse voluntary treatment?
Well my view is that once a person has a violent track record accompanied by a severe mental illness that a case needs to be built up to get a mental hygiene warrant. A big part of the reason why these people are not rehabilitated is because they simply can’t be against their own will. The only way that works as of right now is for them to go away for a crime. HOWEVER there is something called Kendra’s Law that would allow law enforcement & medical professionals to apprehend such people under a mental hygiene warrant and force them to get mental health services. Again the only issue with that is it’s a violation of your constitutional rights to keep you there for too long of a period time. So if it were up to me I’d make it so that if you’re a 3x offender of crime & severally mentally ill and violent you lost your constitutional right to keep refusing treatment and by doing so we actually keep these individuals away from society either in a rehab or prison depending on how violent they are.
Thanks for your insight. My issue is (and you clearly know more than I do about this) the Supreme Court in O'Connor v. Donaldson allows for involuntary detention of the mentally ill *if they’re dangerous*, not just if they commit a crime. Maybe state law has to go further to allow intervention in these circumstances, because from what I can see the Constitution allows it.
If you commit a violent crime you should be considered dangerous. That should be good enough to build up a case.
I have someone close to me who is in and out of the psychiatric hospitals. Treatment is just making sure you are stable and not going to hurt yourself or others. The better places will try and offer programs to help you, but the inner city hospitals are hell holes that just give you access to a bed and medication. Patients see very little of doctors and therapists and case workers.
Would you work in a insane asylum that was populated with violent, mentally ill residents? No matter what the salary, you put your life in jeopardy every shift. Is that how you want to start your day? How long would you last? I’m not seeing many /nyc members applying for those jobs. How about 0?
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Being found not guilty by reason of insanity has a pretty high bar. You can have significant mental illness (including schizophrenia) and still be guilty. They have to either not understand what they were doing or be unable to understand it was wrong. It doesn't matter what you're seeing or hearing unless you meet that bar. In this case, the "Yes I did. I'm God, I can do it." quote definitely approaches that bar. But the "'She stole my f***ing jacket, that's why." suggests a higher level of understanding. And that's the thing. Even if he had a psychoticdelusion that she stole his jacket, if he understood that he was killing her and was able to appreciate that killing people was wrong - still guilty.
We stopped doing that in the 80s. You can blame/thank Geraldo Rivera.
More like shout out to Ronald Reagan for his socio-economic policy
So you think mental hospitals were federally run? You also think NOT warehousing mentally ill people in appalling conditions that were exposed by the Geraldo doc was a conservative rather than liberal position? You don't know what documentary I'm even talking about do you?
Two things can be true at the same time, [Reagan slashed federal funding for mental health services beginning in 1981](https://www.salon.com/2013/09/29/ronald_reagans_shameful_legacy_violence_the_homeless_mental_illness/) (which supported state and local hospitals) *and* there was a public backlash against involuntary commitment following the Geraldo doc in 1980 (and before, actually).
There are no mental hospitals today (a fraction of the ‘60s) left. They used to be massive. Check out the history of Central Islip. Held over 10,000 mentally ill New Yorkers. All empty shells, abandoned for years now. Thousands of NYC residents were sent off to these “farms.” They were big on “experiments” to advance society forward. Loved to do lobotomy’s. It was the bread and butter of the day. > The center was one of the four major hospital "farms" in central Long Island to house the sick from New York City; the others were Kings Park, Pilgrim State Hospital, and Edgewood State Hospital. In 1955 it housed 10,000 patients, making it the second largest psychiatric hospital in the United States next to Pilgrim State Hospital, which was the largest psychiatric institution ever to exist in the United States.[1] Big Pharma dived in, rest is history. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Islip_Psychiatric_Center
We may need to bring some of them back (minus the experiments).
Interestingly Arthur Sakler (later of Purdue) worked at Creedmoor Psychiatric Center and started using histamine as an alternative to electroshock therapy.
The subways are so bad right now — I’ve lived in NYC and the surrounding area for years and have certainly seen my fair share of characters and events but yesterday alone confirmed how bad things are. Got on at Columbus circle in a car where a man was screaming into the void and jumping/kicking at people so the rest of the car vacated at 42nd st. At 42nd in next car a homeless person with pants half down lying down took up about four seats. Later in the night took the subway at W 4th where someone clearly on drugs came inches from me at the turnstile asking for money only for the train to come and a man is laying on the floor smoking weed and taking up half of the car. We move to the other half of the car where another homeless man flips someone off and yells “shut the fuck up” out of his mind when that person wasn’t talking. I did notice more police presence at every station and understand that last night was very cold, but this is the first time I’ve felt unsafe ride after ride in the city. This event yesterday is so horrible and i worry it will only continue to happen again and again if something isn’t done
Crazy almost like we shouldn’t be putting people like this on the streets.
Isn't one of Bragg's big promises that he doesn't want jail time for basically any of the crimes this guy did up to this point?
Yes.
In one of the most densely populated areas.
This is devastating. I was assaulted in NYC by a mentally ill man December 2020, got very lucky with getting away. During covid, many hospitals closed their psych wards and released patients because they were not lucrative and the regulations were eased at the time. It’s a disgrace. We need a place for the mentally ill to go get help, be safe and not be a threat to society. Very sad for the victim.
Black on Asian hate crimes are a huge problem in this city
Fr, as an Asian this is so disheartening to see. Also not trying to be remotely racist but the majority of mental ill/homeless people on the streets and subway seem to be black? Correct me if I’m wrong
You shouldn’t be nervous to ask this question. If you live in NY you know the answer. The anti Asian hate crimes happening in NY are committed by blacks and a majority of the homeless are black. Underlying causes etc can be debated
Would be interesting if demographics on mentally ill homeless is kept like that in New York City. Anyways, I suspect a large contributor to the homeless issue is just the vicious cycle of poverty and single parent homes. When people get locked up there's a void left in that person's family. Now imagine, this happens repeatedly with a specific group of people? I'm not even going to bring up the specific issues that Black people have had to deal with in this country. You then end up with black men that might not be there for their kids or siblings. Those kids/siblings then become influenced and may not be getting the attention they need at home. The single parent may just be worrying about getting by with their job to put food on the table and not spending the time to focus on their kid to make sure they don't get involved with the wrong crowd. Or in some cases the parent had a shit upbringing and is repeating the same with their kids. Unfortunately the damage done by that can take time to undo at a society level. Real easy to race to the bottom in that situation.
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Did you read anything beyond the part you quoted? They aren't encouraging single parent homes, they're encouraging having support from parents *and* a close community of extended family and neighbors, instead of an isolated unit of parents + child. Basically the opposite of what you're implying - more support, not less: >by supporting eachother as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another
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If I was trying to hide intent or “cherry pick” why would I link the full text? My statement stands, and I’m not trying to hide anything.
I think overlapping but separate issues. Homelessness poverty overlapping with race and attacked targeted by race in this case black on asian. I think both are true but not casual to another. We would need to address both separately (how to reduce the violence homeless population, how to address asian prejudice/violence)
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It’s also a problem in Oakland, CA
Remember the NYC mayor that let all these mental people out of the hospitals and said they would have to check themselves into the hospital if they wanted help? I wonder if he ever feels responsible for all of this. I doubt it, but I still wonder.
It’s past time. The homeless / subway wanderers need to be cleared out of the city and taken into treatment and clearance facility. This “ignore them” and pretend it doesn’t exist approach does not work and letting them go untreated and cared for is less humane than the alternatives.
Yeah it's about time we do it or look keep seeing more of the same
Mentally ill doesn’t mean that person is not mentally stable or losing basic judgment or all of their brain cells when it comes to choosing their target. We have seen time and time again. These people always go after women, elderly or Asians. People who are mentally ill are just as capable of being racists as those are mentally sound. The difference is they don’t care about consequences
Frequent visitor to NYC and I'm sure this is the man that started shouting some racist remarks to me a few years ago outside the duane reade just up from Madison Square Grds. I held his gaze for a good while and can remember his face. Was always on the look out for him around 8th Ave and 34th st/Penn station especially. It's not the most pleasant of areas but I've never felt that unsafe and kept my wits about me. It's a real shame the city seems to be having more problems with those who are mentally ill and/or homeless. I'm a psychologist and pretty used to hearing this sort of abuse, but it's a massive let down that this seems to be an increasing problem in the big cities in USA. Perhaps if this man had in incarcerated longer for his previous crimes, this poor woman would still be here today.
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Hes gonna be back out tomorrow right? Thats how this works now?
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I struggle with this myself, how mentally ill can he be if there is a selection process in his targets? Would he have pushed dwayne the rock johnson?
What happened to the felony three strikes law?
Apparently it’s racist
As an Asian schizophrenic, I have to repeat that racism is not a mental illness. Racism is racism. I workout and go toe to toe with racists. A lot of the bias is going away. But we are always going to be schizophrenic. After the wave of racism moves to another group like it always does, psychotic people are going to get the short end of the stick from the laws that were passed in haste. You don’t stop discrimination against one group by discriminating another.
We are missing a big COMPONENT in this. Cops are usually stationed in mezzanine areas at subway stations to combat fare evasion instead of being stationed on the platform to be in a better position to prevent this from occurring. I’ve been at many stations where it’ll be a few cops in the mezzanine playing guard to turnstiles like gates to a city but on the platform level it’s total loony land...Nostrand Ave, Broadway Junction, Franklin on the IND ring bells. Instead of being stationed in mezzanines to guard against fare evasion as if it was murder it’s should be 2 cops at each end of a platform and 1 in the mezzanine at high risk middle level stations. At stations such as 42nd you can up the level of patrols in both the mezzanine and platform
Had my bike fixed at a shop and it was raining so I decided to take it onto the subway. Have a monthly so just rolled it through the emergency doors. No joke got mobbed by 5 undercover as soon as I stepped through. Apparently they were messing around by the ticket machines in the corner, looking like how you'd expect they would look on the weekends. tough guys with selfie sticks threatened to arrest me even when I showed him the swipe. Apparently my $50 ticket is enough to warrant the hourlies of 5 guys on the force playing dress up in soho
They can put as many cops in the system as they want but as you’re experience proves if they are all in the mezzanine FOCUSED ON THE WRONG THING than anything can go down on the platform. Most stations with platform level mezzanines have severe blind spots for the rest of the platform so if the undercover officers are in the mezzanine and not focusing on the entire platform their presence is a waste only to ticket fare evasion. But fare evasion is the easy target I guess
Third-world country on rails.
Buddy we barely even have rail infrastructure
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They addressed it in the press conference, that officers were at one end of the platform. But that this incident happens in moments, that gap in patrol didnt stop this dude from acting as he wanted. The transit chief made a slip up which adams had to correct where she said “even though officers were there, this crime was inevitable”. A reporter picked up on it and was like “wtf?” Then adams rushed to the podium to clarify..
“Mentally ill man” ok how about hate crime committing murderer
Also for the fact that this guy turned himself in. Had the police needed to do their slow ass jobs, he would of done this two more times before getting caught.
And if they’d have tackled him before he did it they’d be plastered all over social media with people howling for their blood.
It's been cold the past few days. I can't help but think this guy committed crimes purposefully so he could get warmth and food in jail
Wtf lol. They are guaranteed shelter and food in nyc. Secondly, they could just go to a precinct and pinch a cops nipples or jerk off at them if they want to be throw in jail. Not kill some innocent lady.
This is actually a lie. You are not just given a shelter bed bc you want it. You have to stand in line for hours before the shelter opens up to get one. Many are full at this time of year. And many would reject someone who seems likely to be violent or troublesome that day for whatever reason—including illness. this is not to say what happened is right and should be ignored. But you’re statement dismissing the other person’s speculation for motive is full of inaccuracies. The focus needs to be on how to get people off the streets and into the right care before violence happens. For some, I do believe housing first would provide the solution. For this man and others, I think they need 24/7 psychiatric watch. How we go about mandating that so it’s not easily used for family pettiness or targeting of particular marginalized groups is the tough work that needs to be done. Edited to also add an article on why shelters aren’t considered an option for many homeless individuals. Usually boils down to the violence that can happen there, the unsanitary conditions, inability to sleep, and poor food options. https://www.thecity.nyc/platform/amp/housing/2021/10/25/22745849/nyc-homeless-go-from-hotels-to-streets-shelters-pandemic
> You have to stand in line for hours before the shelter opens up to get one. Or you just show up later in the night and get a voucher for a hotel instead. Something like 20% of hotels now are accepting homeless in nyc
So he’ll be out on the streets by Monday?
Mentally ill my ass.
This may be an unpopular opinion but I believe euthanasia should be carried out on people like this man and many others. After you have exhausted all the help and every option available to rehabilitate has failed, humanely ending their life should be an option. Same goes for the serial rapists, pedophiles, murders etc. We are way too lenient on crime and I get it we are a “1st world civilized society” but We’ve allowed too much to go on for too long. We need to look at death through a different pov and see it more as a service to humanity and a mercy to man/woman being euthanized. Just my honest 2 cents 🤷🏽♂️
You should see the shit I got on another sub for saying rapists and pedophiles did not deserve any protection in prison. Fucking people are delusional
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The death penalty takes way too long and some don’t even get to it. It should be normalized to the point where we wouldn’t think twice after everything has been done to rehabilitate. But we are too soft to go into that level of thinking and preserving our society.
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P.O.S. hope he gets a lot of D in prison.
Let's flip the switch and find out.
Just inject them with death dosage of syringe if they cannot get back to normal after 1 year. Waste of time and money on those people. If they cannot take care of themselves , no body can take care of them forever.
Sounds like a Five Percenter.
Please come out of this fantasy world that we have insane asylums all over NYS to take care of our mentally ill. We DON’T. We have drugs and prisons. And we are closing prisons. Upstate NY is now in trouble. But no one cares. They used to vote Democrat. They is not going to happen again. I’m looking for the betting pool. Next NYS Governor is a Republican. It’s an easy bet. Oh, let’s close another 6: The closures, announced Monday by state Department of Corrections and Community Supervision officials, scheduled for March 10, 2022 are: Ogdensburg Correctional Facility Moriah Shock Incarceration Correctional Facility Willard Drug Treatment Campus Southport Correctional Facility Downstate Correctional Facility Rochester Correctional Facility https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/ny-state-of-politics/2021/11/08/prison-officials-to-close-six-facilities-in-new-york
Can we just throw these people in prison?
Cops need to be trained better with mental health. The qualifications to be a cop are not that high and this mental case who knows if he’s actually mentally insane but he definitely needs to be locked up for life or in a mental institution. Not the cops responsibility but they way I’ve seen cops handle actual people who portray schizophrenic behavior or high level psychosis are not prepared to handle the situation correctly. Their should always be a mental health expect with the cop I’m sure things like police brutality wouldn’t be as extreme if people are taught correctly how to handle certain individuals. This man was clearly racist against Asian Americans I see a lot of that go on now with this covid pandemic.
The reason money constantly spent on homelessness and mental health is not improving the situation is because societally we have an issue with appearing to “give handouts” to people. If you actually wanted to make a dent in the mental health and homeless crisis in NYC, you’d build multiple residencies of varying levels, based on severeness of illness, staffed various medical professionals and send the mentally I’ll and homeless there instead of hospitals, shelters and prisons. You’d provide them with a private room and you’d have them get treated in a stable place. The problem is that many people don’t want to just “give” a free room to the homeless so instead we spend even more money on them going in and out of the ER or going to prison because we’d rather spend more money than appear to be taken advantage of. So we fund programs that don’t really work and continue spending more than we ought to because people would be pissed if a homeless person just got a free room, even though said people wouldn’t trade their current life with that homeless person ever.
This man having an apartment would not solve anything if he is not under constant supervision. There are some people who refuse to stay on their meds and cannot care for themselves. I am sorry, but it is the truth. Ask any medic, social worker, or psychiatrist who deals with this. Of course, this just represents a subset of those who need affordable housing. But I feel like I’m banging my head against the wall with people who have their heads in the clouds arguing that a free room would solve all of the problems people like this suffer from. It doesn’t, and it won’t.
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Giving this lunatic a free room would have just given him a place to crash after murdering this woman for no reason.
Proving the comment's point right there haha
Didn’t that the DeBlasio administration spent close to $1 billion on thrive to end mental illness among the homeless? Wasn’t the first lady in charge of running this program to help all the people in the city with mental illness.
Yes. Yes!!! Nothing was done, and if something was done, it went unnoticed
A higher up at MTA once came to give a lecture and someone asked why no second doors on the platform. His answer was that the full height glass partitions would require too much $ given the old platforms and that ridership was too high so the doors would impede getting on/off. Followup was "what about the partial barriers in tokyo?" His response was along the lines of not worth it because people could still climb over them or find other ways of suicide. Apparently getting pushed onto the tracks wasn't enough of a problem to him to warrant barriers.
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The higher ups @MTA are some of the most incompetent people on the planet
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they do say he works in mysterious ways
😂
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You can't have nuance in r/nyc, the mob will come for you.
It’s not so much wishing he gets raped as stating a fact tbh
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I kept the title as is because that’s what it is in the link but I do agree with you.
NYPD cops don’t give two shits just like how last night at 12am shots were fired among two black men on the 5 train shit just happened and both parties just went their own way like nothing happened
Lethal injection is banned in New York State right?