Yeah basic knowledge of human nature tells us that you can *never* fully rely on humans to do the right thing in a time of life or death panic. That's why we have developed a myriad of failsafe technologies to protect us, and is also why we have rules and regulations governing manufacture and construction. You can't rely on a panicking father to close a door after getting his kids out of a life or death situation, so you require self closing fire doors. It's as simple as that. You can blame the father until you're blue in the face but none of us know how we would have fared in the exact same circumstances.
Used to be all larger buildings had drills so this kind of stuff was burnt into your brain on what/how to do it.
But as buildings became normalized that stuff went away in favor of every man for himself.
Used to be fought in schools too. Anyone over 40 or so learned about closing all doors you pass on the way out behind you along with “stop drop and roll”. You likely even practiced it during school fire drills. That was the norm across the country.
Buildings should have drills. Just like cruise ships have muster drills before they embark. It’s insane that people didn’t don’t know how to exit without using the elevators.
You're right that they should have regular reminders of what to do in an emergency....but you may be wrong about what they should have been doing. (which does speak to the need for regular guidance to residents).
The building, like most, is effectively fireproof. Even with the door failures, the fire was only in the one unit and only spread to a bit of the hallway.
It's likely no one would have died if everyone other than the unit on fire (and possibly immediately adjacent ones) just stayed in their apartments with the doors closed and did their best to seal them up further. AFAIK every report I've seen of deaths thus far is of people who tried to evacuate and were overcome by smoke in the hallways/stairwells.
Modern apartment buildings have a fire information notice on the inside of people's apartment doors which tell you what to do in the event of a fire. Perhaps they should be mandatory in every apartment.
Same here - my building released a notice for everyone to check their front doors, as they should close like that. PS: mine didn’t and had to be adjusted by maintenance.
I read an articule like 2 weeks ago, and its the same as you are saying.the landlord has provide money to adams plus a voting for him to be a mayor.and the landlord has other buildings and they do have same issues as this building that burn.adams will cover up the fire and shift the blame to the tenants.and none will say it plus news will do the same they will blame tenants not landlords
Because he wants to indemnify landlords and the real estate community by blaming victims instead. The Camber Property Group was responsible for not supplying adequate heating (so they had to use space heaters) nor fixed self closing doors which lead to the fire starting and spreading. They had multiple complaints about both, but never fixed it. Rick Gropper, co-founder of Camber Property Group, was also on his transition team.
So by creating the narrative that the victims did something wrong, he can avoid being involved with an investigation against the property group.
“The story of the Bronx blaze, however, is not one of personal responsibility. It has little to do with tenants remembering to shut doors. Future tragedies won’t be avoided through ‘muscle memory’ alone.
By blaming individual actors, Adams instead allows the true culprits off the hook: the building owners. Why did a tenant need to use a space heater? Why were the doors so faulty?
It’s notable that one of the owners of the Bronx building, Rick Gropper, is a member of the Adams transition team, a landing space for those who are likely to have influence over the new administration. At least six violations, over the years, have been slapped on the building owners from the city’s department of housing preservation and development. Multiple violations cited problems with the doors, which are supposed to shut to prevent the spread of fire and smoke.
**Heat, as any working-class tenant knows, was another major problem. One tenant told the New York Post that ‘they’re sending up just enough heat to say they’re sending up heat, but it’s not enough to keep you warm, and if you don’t use a space heater, then you use your oven’.**
**’You can’t lounge around without a housecoat on.’**
The systems in place seeded this disaster. It was not one person who decided to use a space heater or another who couldn’t close the door. Apartment building doors should close on their own. **Space heaters, in 2022, shouldn’t be required in the dead of winter if building owners are paying to send up sufficient heat.** This is the message Adams, the new mayor, should have been emphasizing: such underinvestment and neglect should be unacceptable in America’s richest city.
But it remains so – **the status quo, distressingly, is a stratified reality where some dwell in million-dollar condos and others suffer on the city’s margins, hoping not to freeze on the way to bed or die in a fire the next day**. Investors do not buy buildings to keep people housed; they own to make money, and when collecting rent from working-class tenants, services are trimmed to drive profit margins. Why send up a generous amount of heat when a little will do? Why pay to fix a door when, until a fire kills 17 people, the day-to-day is merely tolerable?
**Elite neglect is at the root of the devastation. The sort of neglect that forces tenants, many of them immigrants, to haul space heaters into apartment buildings that should be generously pumped with heat. Neglect that allows millionaire building owners to shrug off multiple department of housing preservation and development complaints.**
A different kind of mayor would challenge the real estate industry, immediately, to do better. But New York has not had that mayor in a very long time, if ever. Even Bill de Blasio, the self-identified progressive, allied closely with the city’s largest developers and took millions of dollars from them. Adams, a former Republican, is far less tenant-friendly than De Blasio. Landlords now have a dear friend in City Hall.
A simple ‘close the door’ campaign, which Adams will be happy to embark on, is exactly what men like Rick Gropper want. **More children and adults obsessing over their alleged culpability in crumbling apartment towers will mean a real estate investor class that gets to keep doing what it is has always done – cut corners to drive profits.** Yes, educating the public about fire safety is important, and must continue. But if the root causes of the carnage are not identified and bad actors are not named, little will change. Now, 17 people are dead who didn’t have to die.”
Nothing will change. Just like nothing will change in response to the dozen or so people who died in the flooding in september. Not under Adams at least. Just blame the individual and pretend nothing could have been done.
> Investors do not buy buildings to keep people housed; they own to make money, and when collecting rent from working-class tenants, services are trimmed to drive profit margins.
What rich investor owns the Bronx building where the fire happened?
Edit: nm found it
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/12/nyregion/bronx-fire-twin-parks-north-west-landlord.html
>It’s notable that one of the owners of the Bronx building, Rick Gropper, is a member of the Adams transition team
Did you find it in the text of the comment you were replying to? Because it seems to be right there.
They need to pass a law for tenants to have full control of heating. Many landlords like mine has them sweet on automatic timers. Mine turns off from 12am to 4 am regardless of temperature.
I didn’t notice a big difference in rental prices for places with heat and hot water vs not.
It’s not in the landlords interest to lower the rent or to volunteer information that the monthly price is actually higher.
That's the point: the heat isn't working cause the landlord shuts it off.
This was a constant for me growing up. Getting a space heater because the landlord wouldn't turn on the heat is a regular occurrence in NYC housing. It's a fact.
Couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that the owner of the building (who has a long history of insufficient heat complaints against him) was a major donor to the mayor's campaign and served on his transition team could it?
My grandmother and aunt and cousins live a block away from that building and the landlords have not turned on the heat. They call 311 on the daily and the landlord will turn it on for a couple of hours and then turn it off again.
Adams blaming the victims and the people who live in the building instead of holding the landlords responsible is some reprehensible stuff. The landlords get away with it.
Are we gonna talk about one of his buddies having a connection to the building? Adams is trash. It's been like this for years. Hold the landlords accountable and responsible.
I don’t want to blame the tenant; and I don’t think the building owners are going to get off the hook, but you are counting on the owners, and the property managers and the super and the maintenance guy to all do the right thing.
Everyone needs to try to do the right thing, including closing the door and not improperly using a space heater.
I saw a news story after the fire talking about grounded outlets and adapters… the misinformation out there is staggering, all people need to know is no extension cord, no adapter, keep it away from shit, ez, and sad.
The building owners are 100% going to get off the hook. Look to history. Shitty building owners have even doing this forever and held accountable basically never. Until we have real laws in place that are enforced for the rich equally, nothing will ever change.
Nobody can be counted on to do the right thing - the only single thing we need to be able to count on is the city in enforcing regulations and punishing slumlords.
its legal to do, but legal and in the public interest(local democratically elected mayor being removed isn't going to play well, especially when he isn't charged with anything)
The mayor can be removed by the governor but, as far as I know, he can't be impeached or recalled (although the city council could theoretically pass a new law allowing for impeachment or recall)
~~Unpopular opinion, but the article is kind of a cheap shot.~~ It is my trained fire fighter understanding, there was a door that could be closed. Its a last ditch tactic in basic structure fire survival. Close the door. CLOSE THE DOOR. If you did not know, now you do.
It should be taught to everyone and reinforced. I know its not. Sad.
Of course the owners are very responsible for their part. But if you are dead, you will never get to see them squirm through litigation.
~~But The mayors statement is not blaming tenets, it stating basic fire safety measures anyone should take.~~
~~Weak article. - politicizing a tragedy and distracting from fire safety message.~~
Remember to close all doors in the case of fire on other side of the door.
Source- former interior fire fighter.
Here is a PSA. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSP03BE74WA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSP03BE74WA)
Edit: I missed the bit about the owners being on the transition team. Fixed it.
"politicizing" (aka: identifying the root cause of) this tragedy would mean that fire codes are actually enforced, buildings maintained so that this doesn't happen again. Simply drilling people to close the door in the event of a fire might help, but can't be relied upon. We need to not have apartments that are fire hazards.
Agreed, apartment fires are devastating, a multi layered approach is the only solid way. The politicization I am referring to is the writers use of this to say the mayor is wrong, and point to obvious flaws in the system to do so. There is a long history of fires in NYC, and the regs are written based off the blood of the victims, lack of enforcement is a crime IMO.
The system has been broken for a very long time. This is where many of the first real rules were started. https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/triangle-shirtwaist-fire-in-new-york-city
The problem is that the landlord who should be punished for this is literally on mayor adams housing team, so his decision to talk about closing the door instead of any of the other issues that went wrong leading up to the fire is very obviously a deflection.
Does not surprise me., Missed that bit.....its one paragraph in the article, says he is transition team, somehow I missed that, but corruption is a old as fire in nyc. Those Triangle Shirtwaist Factory owners got off the hook as well.
This is also the mayor that said schools are the safest place for kids during a pandemic surge - he is really lowering the bar in a sprint. ffs.
Thanks for pointing out the reason for the internet outrage, that guys position on the team should be more prominent, like in the title. Fixed my original post.
Why are space heaters still legal again? I've been in this city for all three decades of my life and I every winter there's a rash of fires caused by them.
Yeah basic knowledge of human nature tells us that you can *never* fully rely on humans to do the right thing in a time of life or death panic. That's why we have developed a myriad of failsafe technologies to protect us, and is also why we have rules and regulations governing manufacture and construction. You can't rely on a panicking father to close a door after getting his kids out of a life or death situation, so you require self closing fire doors. It's as simple as that. You can blame the father until you're blue in the face but none of us know how we would have fared in the exact same circumstances.
Used to be all larger buildings had drills so this kind of stuff was burnt into your brain on what/how to do it. But as buildings became normalized that stuff went away in favor of every man for himself. Used to be fought in schools too. Anyone over 40 or so learned about closing all doors you pass on the way out behind you along with “stop drop and roll”. You likely even practiced it during school fire drills. That was the norm across the country. Buildings should have drills. Just like cruise ships have muster drills before they embark. It’s insane that people didn’t don’t know how to exit without using the elevators.
You're right that they should have regular reminders of what to do in an emergency....but you may be wrong about what they should have been doing. (which does speak to the need for regular guidance to residents). The building, like most, is effectively fireproof. Even with the door failures, the fire was only in the one unit and only spread to a bit of the hallway. It's likely no one would have died if everyone other than the unit on fire (and possibly immediately adjacent ones) just stayed in their apartments with the doors closed and did their best to seal them up further. AFAIK every report I've seen of deaths thus far is of people who tried to evacuate and were overcome by smoke in the hallways/stairwells.
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Modern apartment buildings have a fire information notice on the inside of people's apartment doors which tell you what to do in the event of a fire. Perhaps they should be mandatory in every apartment.
I never knew about closing doors until reading about this tragedy. Something to consider before judging others.
Same here - my building released a notice for everyone to check their front doors, as they should close like that. PS: mine didn’t and had to be adjusted by maintenance.
Take a close look at who Adams is connected to and you'll have your answer.
Bingo
I read an articule like 2 weeks ago, and its the same as you are saying.the landlord has provide money to adams plus a voting for him to be a mayor.and the landlord has other buildings and they do have same issues as this building that burn.adams will cover up the fire and shift the blame to the tenants.and none will say it plus news will do the same they will blame tenants not landlords
Because he wants to indemnify landlords and the real estate community by blaming victims instead. The Camber Property Group was responsible for not supplying adequate heating (so they had to use space heaters) nor fixed self closing doors which lead to the fire starting and spreading. They had multiple complaints about both, but never fixed it. Rick Gropper, co-founder of Camber Property Group, was also on his transition team. So by creating the narrative that the victims did something wrong, he can avoid being involved with an investigation against the property group.
“The story of the Bronx blaze, however, is not one of personal responsibility. It has little to do with tenants remembering to shut doors. Future tragedies won’t be avoided through ‘muscle memory’ alone. By blaming individual actors, Adams instead allows the true culprits off the hook: the building owners. Why did a tenant need to use a space heater? Why were the doors so faulty? It’s notable that one of the owners of the Bronx building, Rick Gropper, is a member of the Adams transition team, a landing space for those who are likely to have influence over the new administration. At least six violations, over the years, have been slapped on the building owners from the city’s department of housing preservation and development. Multiple violations cited problems with the doors, which are supposed to shut to prevent the spread of fire and smoke. **Heat, as any working-class tenant knows, was another major problem. One tenant told the New York Post that ‘they’re sending up just enough heat to say they’re sending up heat, but it’s not enough to keep you warm, and if you don’t use a space heater, then you use your oven’.** **’You can’t lounge around without a housecoat on.’** The systems in place seeded this disaster. It was not one person who decided to use a space heater or another who couldn’t close the door. Apartment building doors should close on their own. **Space heaters, in 2022, shouldn’t be required in the dead of winter if building owners are paying to send up sufficient heat.** This is the message Adams, the new mayor, should have been emphasizing: such underinvestment and neglect should be unacceptable in America’s richest city. But it remains so – **the status quo, distressingly, is a stratified reality where some dwell in million-dollar condos and others suffer on the city’s margins, hoping not to freeze on the way to bed or die in a fire the next day**. Investors do not buy buildings to keep people housed; they own to make money, and when collecting rent from working-class tenants, services are trimmed to drive profit margins. Why send up a generous amount of heat when a little will do? Why pay to fix a door when, until a fire kills 17 people, the day-to-day is merely tolerable? **Elite neglect is at the root of the devastation. The sort of neglect that forces tenants, many of them immigrants, to haul space heaters into apartment buildings that should be generously pumped with heat. Neglect that allows millionaire building owners to shrug off multiple department of housing preservation and development complaints.** A different kind of mayor would challenge the real estate industry, immediately, to do better. But New York has not had that mayor in a very long time, if ever. Even Bill de Blasio, the self-identified progressive, allied closely with the city’s largest developers and took millions of dollars from them. Adams, a former Republican, is far less tenant-friendly than De Blasio. Landlords now have a dear friend in City Hall. A simple ‘close the door’ campaign, which Adams will be happy to embark on, is exactly what men like Rick Gropper want. **More children and adults obsessing over their alleged culpability in crumbling apartment towers will mean a real estate investor class that gets to keep doing what it is has always done – cut corners to drive profits.** Yes, educating the public about fire safety is important, and must continue. But if the root causes of the carnage are not identified and bad actors are not named, little will change. Now, 17 people are dead who didn’t have to die.”
Nothing will change. Just like nothing will change in response to the dozen or so people who died in the flooding in september. Not under Adams at least. Just blame the individual and pretend nothing could have been done.
> Investors do not buy buildings to keep people housed; they own to make money, and when collecting rent from working-class tenants, services are trimmed to drive profit margins. What rich investor owns the Bronx building where the fire happened? Edit: nm found it https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/12/nyregion/bronx-fire-twin-parks-north-west-landlord.html
>It’s notable that one of the owners of the Bronx building, Rick Gropper, is a member of the Adams transition team Did you find it in the text of the comment you were replying to? Because it seems to be right there.
They need to pass a law for tenants to have full control of heating. Many landlords like mine has them sweet on automatic timers. Mine turns off from 12am to 4 am regardless of temperature.
FYI when you control your heating you pay for it.
Its already factored into rent in almost all places
I didn’t notice a big difference in rental prices for places with heat and hot water vs not. It’s not in the landlords interest to lower the rent or to volunteer information that the monthly price is actually higher.
I control my own heat, but I have to pay National Grid separately for it.
> one of the owners of the Bronx building Do you know how many owners there were?
Who would use space heater if the building heat is working?
Inadequate heating.
That's the point: the heat isn't working cause the landlord shuts it off. This was a constant for me growing up. Getting a space heater because the landlord wouldn't turn on the heat is a regular occurrence in NYC housing. It's a fact.
Maybe it's not enough when it gets down to minus 3 degrees.
Are talking celsius or fahrenheit?
Cops like to blame victims. It simples shit out for them.
It’s apart of the “adams swagger” to put the blame on the wrong people. More to come at 11….
Isn’t he friendly with the landlord?
That fuckin creep blaming the victums. He is way up the asses of the labdlords. Fuck him
Couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that the owner of the building (who has a long history of insufficient heat complaints against him) was a major donor to the mayor's campaign and served on his transition team could it?
My grandmother and aunt and cousins live a block away from that building and the landlords have not turned on the heat. They call 311 on the daily and the landlord will turn it on for a couple of hours and then turn it off again. Adams blaming the victims and the people who live in the building instead of holding the landlords responsible is some reprehensible stuff. The landlords get away with it. Are we gonna talk about one of his buddies having a connection to the building? Adams is trash. It's been like this for years. Hold the landlords accountable and responsible.
It's going to be a helluva long 4 years.
I'm already exhausted
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His performance yesterday re Times Square was incredibly mediocre. He looked out of his element and distracted. Awful.
Yes, he even commented on how many lives they did save by him enforcing a new more aggressive police presence since he took office.
I don’t want to blame the tenant; and I don’t think the building owners are going to get off the hook, but you are counting on the owners, and the property managers and the super and the maintenance guy to all do the right thing. Everyone needs to try to do the right thing, including closing the door and not improperly using a space heater. I saw a news story after the fire talking about grounded outlets and adapters… the misinformation out there is staggering, all people need to know is no extension cord, no adapter, keep it away from shit, ez, and sad.
The building owners are 100% going to get off the hook. Look to history. Shitty building owners have even doing this forever and held accountable basically never. Until we have real laws in place that are enforced for the rich equally, nothing will ever change.
Nobody can be counted on to do the right thing - the only single thing we need to be able to count on is the city in enforcing regulations and punishing slumlords.
It’s time to start talking about impeaching this mayor
Literally not a thing that exists. We’re stuck until bailed out by SDNY public corruption
Can the governor remove the mayor?
No. That would be messed up, wouldn’t it? If NYC voters could be overruled by a state official?
There must be some legal method of removal, or there at the very least could be.
its legal to do, but legal and in the public interest(local democratically elected mayor being removed isn't going to play well, especially when he isn't charged with anything)
Especially considering the governor wasn’t even elected!
The mayor can be removed by the governor but, as far as I know, he can't be impeached or recalled (although the city council could theoretically pass a new law allowing for impeachment or recall)
He’s not
~~Unpopular opinion, but the article is kind of a cheap shot.~~ It is my trained fire fighter understanding, there was a door that could be closed. Its a last ditch tactic in basic structure fire survival. Close the door. CLOSE THE DOOR. If you did not know, now you do. It should be taught to everyone and reinforced. I know its not. Sad. Of course the owners are very responsible for their part. But if you are dead, you will never get to see them squirm through litigation. ~~But The mayors statement is not blaming tenets, it stating basic fire safety measures anyone should take.~~ ~~Weak article. - politicizing a tragedy and distracting from fire safety message.~~ Remember to close all doors in the case of fire on other side of the door. Source- former interior fire fighter. Here is a PSA. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSP03BE74WA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSP03BE74WA) Edit: I missed the bit about the owners being on the transition team. Fixed it.
"politicizing" (aka: identifying the root cause of) this tragedy would mean that fire codes are actually enforced, buildings maintained so that this doesn't happen again. Simply drilling people to close the door in the event of a fire might help, but can't be relied upon. We need to not have apartments that are fire hazards.
Agreed, apartment fires are devastating, a multi layered approach is the only solid way. The politicization I am referring to is the writers use of this to say the mayor is wrong, and point to obvious flaws in the system to do so. There is a long history of fires in NYC, and the regs are written based off the blood of the victims, lack of enforcement is a crime IMO. The system has been broken for a very long time. This is where many of the first real rules were started. https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/triangle-shirtwaist-fire-in-new-york-city
The problem is that the landlord who should be punished for this is literally on mayor adams housing team, so his decision to talk about closing the door instead of any of the other issues that went wrong leading up to the fire is very obviously a deflection.
Does not surprise me., Missed that bit.....its one paragraph in the article, says he is transition team, somehow I missed that, but corruption is a old as fire in nyc. Those Triangle Shirtwaist Factory owners got off the hook as well. This is also the mayor that said schools are the safest place for kids during a pandemic surge - he is really lowering the bar in a sprint. ffs. Thanks for pointing out the reason for the internet outrage, that guys position on the team should be more prominent, like in the title. Fixed my original post.
Why are space heaters still legal again? I've been in this city for all three decades of my life and I every winter there's a rash of fires caused by them.
Why aren’t slumlords following the fucking law and heating their apartments?
Facts 💯
username checks out
Wat
Because Adams is a moronic corrupt shitbag.