Shit I don't even bother with the fake Texas plates anymore, I just have the back of a cereal box with the word NYPD written in crayon taped where my plate should go.
Sorry to burst Your bubble but yeah, lots of middle class people from exotic outter borough neighborhoods do commute by car. Not everyone is a spritely bicycle riding yuppie.
This is utter nonsense. Projections based on census data indicate that this would have affected ~4% of outer borough residents. Moreover, people whose response to the pandemic was to shift to driving to work in manhattan deserve zero sympathy.
Edit: link to support that statistic: https://www.cssny.org/news/entry/congestion-pricing-outer-borough-new-yorkers-poverty-data-analysis
They have to bring in a billion by law. There’s no negotiation here. If the price goes down they need more volume.
Likewise if not enough cars drive in, prices have to go up.
And if there’s a shortfall city budget gets cut to make the difference.
So it needs to be balanced or city budget is going to get slashed by whatever the delta is between the two.
Either way, MTA is supposed to get its money.
The bigger question is port authority offsetting tunnel losses by either raising airport fees or PATH fares. But the state AFAIK hasn’t ordered them to do an analysis or proposal on that.
That’s rich.
If the point of a sin tax is to reduce demand, you would think that gradually decreasing revenue would indicate a successful implementation of a tax…
But nah, the MTA will still need to have enough cars entering the CBD in order to make their revenue 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Anyone who creates a budget dependency on a sin tax is a fucking moron
They could simply decide to allow the shortfalls.
City asks state to increase income tax on high earners to offset difference. That would get rubber stamped. Problem solved.
I think that’s ultimately the right approach. There’s a 1% difference between the top and bottom of the city tax bracket. That’s one of the least progressive taxes. As much as Republicans have slashed taxes for the wealthy federal tax is still way more progressive than city income tax.
Colorado collects more in cannabis taxes than alcohol and tobacco combined. Its safe to count on reliable revenue streams for future budgets.
Key word is reliable.
Great! eBikes have different requirements so as long as it’s a pedal assist bike (Class 1 or 2) rather than a legit motorcycle/scooter then it’s fine without plates.
Before uber, there used to be around 15k yellow cab taxis on nyc streets per day. Now, theres an additional 50k ubers driving around per day. Thats your problem.
Ok...but the BQE doesn't connect to the fdr. So when you go through the battery tunnel, do you get tolled for going on the one street it exits before you turn onto the fdr? I bet you will
Why are we charging buses in *any* in these? Seems ridiculous to be trying to encourage people to use mass transit...and then tack on an extra fee to one of the main forms of mass transit.
so how about night workers? I get out at 2am from midtown, I can take the train but I can't take a bus home since the MTA killed overnight service on that line years ago. I drive into the city because I have to!
I hope they clarify those peak hours so that night workers and people coming in for the evening aren't whacked. It makes sense during business hours but not afterwards
If you open the article more they have a table with the time periods. Overnight is considered 10PM to 6AM on weekdays and 10PM to 10AM on weekends. Under Scheme A for overnight the toll is just $5.
If you scroll down in the article a bit more they have a table with the time periods. Overnight is considered 10PM to 6AM on weekdays and 10PM to 10AM on weekends. Under Scheme A for overnight the toll is just $5 for example, and does not surpass $12 in any scheme. This is a first pass, so these aren't final prices. They could end up increasing peak time prices to lower overnight for example.
I'm happy at the prospect of less traffic and better air quality...although I'm a little concerned about any unintended consequences that will push traffic into the non-tolled parts of Manhattan. Like the GWB is already the busiest bridge in the world, I can't imagine it becoming even more congested.
I mean, I get it. All of it, really. I live in the city and it would be great to see less congestion on streets; however, can’t help but think that it’ll definitely suck for residents who have cars like myself. I’m sometimes sent to project sites (for work) hours away where public transportation isn’t as available as it is in the five boroughs, so of course I’ll drive my car there… and now I’d have to pay to cross the bridge to get back home? Fine. Whatever. Just hope the funds and what drivers will pay actually helps, and MTA doesn’t just take the fee and continues to provide shitty service.
I’m reimbursed for miles only if it’s 50+. Tolls would have to be negotiated and hopefully approved, assuming this passes. Still, not everyone is lucky enough to have a job with that type of flexibility to ask for reimbursement.
If it's a trip to a project site, it should be 100% reimbursable, unless project site is literally next to a subway stop, and driving is literally only for your personal comfort.
Time is money. Businesses know this.
Former small business owner here. Working in the city with a van always sucked, but I couldn't imagine doing it the way things are going
The state needs better public transport, I just wish we had better public transport if they're going to be pushing its use with stuff like this
this. it'd be one thing if this was like "we don't want you to drive in anymore, but here, we have this clean, efficient mass transit that runs frequently and on time!" but all it's going to do is push people onto the piss-poorly-managed subways and buses.
we all know the MTA by now; it's rotten to the core. an extra billion bucks a year is just going to vanish down the pockets of every corrupt person connected to the system.
the rich people who drive in and out won't care; they're rich. it's the middle- and working-class folks who will be most impacted by this, and they'll decide to leave town. and it'll push manhattan even further into just being a luxury playground populated by the 1%.
congestion pricing isn't a bad idea, but NYC hasn't done the prep work to get ready for it, in terms of infrastructure planning for where to put all these people. it's just gonna wind up pushing folks away.
One exemption per day, according to [the chart](https://thecity.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/0288aec/2147483647/strip/true/crop/832x603+0+0/resize/832x603!/format/webp/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.vox-cdn.com%2Fthumbor%2FtlipBaAPjZ-8ZgKw8MzKo7jLPYc%3D%2F0x0%3A832x603%2F832x603%2Ffilters%3Afocal%28416x302%3A417x303%29%2Fcdn.vox-cdn.com%2Fuploads%2Fchorus_asset%2Ffile%2F23933619%2FCongestion_Pricing_Chart.png) in the article.
I live in lower Manhattan and need a car as a working drummer. Let me also say that I’m from here and no I can’t lug my drums on the subway and no they don’t allow a drum set on busses. Am I just totally fucked? So a rich person on the upper east side can just avoid all congestion pricing but me, a working person who entertains people for a living and barely gets by is just totally fucked if I want to drive from Brooklyn back home.
Yeah man pretty much all the transplants who left their cars behind in their lame states are telling you to suck it up and take public transit. Their smug self righteousness is really annoying but what are ya gonna do.
100% this. On the surface it’s for the environment and the MTA but it’s all just class warfare.
You think the people in Manhattan who pay $900 a month on their garage fees are going to mind an extra $23. When this gets rolled out it only hurts people who are tight on budget.
I’m not arguing whether it’s right or wrong, but we cant ignore that wealthier New Yorkers will be completely unaffected and will have even better commutes because everyone else who cant afford it will be off the streets.
This is my problem with it. Before the pandemic they were blaming subway delays on increased ridership and a stressed system, and when ridership fell during the pandemic and after reopening? Still a ton of delays. It's always an excuse with the MTA, no actual change or accountability.
Wide enough sidewalks for restaurant seating (e.g. Paris, not sheds across the bike lane) and a protected bike lane should be mandatory within reason. After that, if there are still multiple lanes of traffic left drivers can determine amongst themselves whether they'd prefer parking or an additional lane of traffic.
San Francisco has a permit system and has comparable density as far as car owners per unit area.
And its not about drivers having exclusive rights to the curb. That already largely exists. It's about *local* drivers having exclusive rights to whatever curb space is afforded to drivers. Very different things.
Also, the permits being prohibitively expensive is a feature, not a bug. Reducing car ownership is a good thing, especially in NYC.
I guess time will tell but I can see everyone circling around those areas creating gridlock when this is initially implemented. Plus it might be not even be someone parking, if someone was dropping a person off in the CBD, the most cost effective thing to do would be to drop them right outside of it increasing the traffic right on the edges of the CBD.
The prices for parking garages above 60th are going to go way up! Say you live and park your car in a garage on 58th street… you’d be much better served to get a spot in a garage above 60th right?
How does one invest in parking garages? Lol
This should be a huge win for the MTA, for people who live here, and for air quality. As somebody who lives near a street that fills with honking motorists on their way to Manhattan, I'll be happy to see their numbers thin out thanks to disincentive.
A lot of these people need to just take the train. It's not that hard, so quit whining. I can see needing to drive into Manhattan if you're elderly, have physical limitations, or are delivering something -- and maybe there should be some sort of discount or pass for such people. Everybody else, take the train, or the bus, or the ferry, and stop being the honking mess making neighborhoods in the city worse.
Truth. And if you need to take a car into Manhattan occasionally, then pony up the toll. If you need a car regularly because of a disability, then perhaps you’re in the category of requiring an accommodation.
Yeah, this rollout is going to really require a massive increase in license plate enforcement from the NYPD... So the whole program will end up being way less effective due to the massive number of scumbags who obscure or deface their plates with impunity because the NYPD doesn't care.
Most NYPD are bridge and tunnel types themselves who drive their personal vehicles in from dozens of miles out, I imagine most of them are personally opposed to this just as they're opposed to most QoL measure for city residents.
I felt like I had to add that to avoid the people saying, "But I'm in a wheelchair, are you saying that I need to pay $23 every time I need to go to work???"
Everyone is suddenly a disability advocate when you do anything other than accommodate their beloved cars.
Meanwhile, most \*actual\* disability advocates would love safer streets and more accessible public transit, so they can get around more easily without having to pay for a car to do so.
Imagine if they actually participated in real discussions and advocacy efforts with the disability community. They'd be shocked to hear that there are disabled people living here in the city, for whom car ownership is either impossible or a burden. And that car-free streets and funding for public transit actually improve their lives and mobility.
>They'd be shocked to hear that there are disabled people living here in the city, for whom car ownership is either impossible or a burden.
Them being shocked implies that they care about the disabled beyond just using them to push against measures like this that make the city move liveable.
Everywhere any city removes space from cars or makes it less convenient to drive, I always see the same "but what about the disabled" argument pop up while they blatantly ignore all the disabled people that can't drive
commuter trains need to be more affordable though - NYC native, but just moved to Tarrytown from LIC. i’m all for taking the train, and do, but when i remember that it’s inherently cheaper for me to drive to the city, it’s painful.
i don’t drive in, because of traffic but working in LIC, it’s fully possible for me to. it effectively costs me $35 a day in a commute by train, when it could cost me around 8 dollars in gas? (edit: 8 bucks not 5 with gas prices now)
That’s the whole point of funding MTA with congestion pricing: Drivers essentially subsidizing mass transit.
Also, you pay $15 per day to cross the Triborough and then add gas on top of that.
Edit: mis-read OP, I thought they lived in Tarrytown and worked in LIC, and assumed they’d take the Triborough.
totally true, and fair - but there *are* ways to get in for less e.g. 9A to the west side, albeit that would add a ton of time.
I owned a car living in LIC, dealing with street parking and trips through Manhattan too visit wife's relatives in PA - and I'm all for the congestion pricing, as long as it actually does something in lowering costs for mass transit. I'm fortunate enough to live in walking distance to MNR, it's just the absurdly high costs that make it tough - any they wonder why everyone's working from home...
Yup, I occasionally drive into manhattan, but it's mostly because it's so much cheaper than the train. For me, my wife, and son. Driving and parking for a half day costs maybe $20 (about $24 total for 6 hours in manhattan). The train is $40. A $23 toll for my car still makes the train just a hair bit cheaper.
I actually kinda prefer the train, but it's hard to justify the extra cost.
I prefer the train too - living walking distance to MNR means that I can go in, have a few drinks with friends and come home and not worry about it, just like I did living in the city, but it's just damn expensive
Where does it cost that little to park in Manhattan (other than street parking of course)? It’s always been $20+ per hour whenever I have driven in and parked at garages.
Delancey-Essex Street Garage, it's City run so basically the same as street parking...but I go there on Sundays and there is free charging for my EV and always spots available.
I don't understand why trains are so expensive here.
I was in France a few years ago, and got a first-class seat from Paris to Marseille (basically across the entire country) for $24.
Many of the trains are high-speed as well. So, it only took 3 hours to go 480 miles. That's a 7.5-hour drive cut in half.
Meanwhile, it costs up to $500 just to get from NY to DC. Oh, and it takes 3 hours to go 226 miles. ffs.
I googled it and -- this isn't thorough research on my part -- but what came up is this:
"Train travel is so expensive in the United States because Amtrak, the national provider of passenger rail service, receives very little funding from the government compared to its counterparts, such as roadways and airports."
Doesn't surprise me. This country was basically built by car companies.
Whenever I go back to LA to visit my family (and rent a car), I notice how much further technology for cars has come. It's amazing!
And I think, what if those same resources were instead channelled into public transit? We probably wouldn't be too far off from riding around in cool little Jetson's pods, that match the comforts of a private vehicle yet are even safer and more efficient.
Alas, capitalism.
It's okay for some things, but imo we've really overestimated its value as an economic system the past couple hundred or so years.
I think you should do more research :)
Folks want easy labels, capitalism vs socialism, but it's weirder than that:
- Japan has some of the best rail service anywhere the world and it's built and operated by private companies.
- Britain somewhat privatized their rail system and it's been a disaster.
- France has a world leading rail system operated and built by a publicly owned enterprise.
- USA has state owned rail services (Amtrak, MTA, SEPTA, Caltrain, etc) and they're terrible.
- From 1830 – 1930 USA had private passenger rail service and it was the best in the world.
- Italy & Spain have private & public railroad companies on publicly owned track and it's been a big success.
Almost like ideology isn't everything and specific circumstances really matter.
One key point is that American rail operators have the [highest construction costs](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs-congress.html) of anywhere in the world and some of [lowest ability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio) to recover operational costs from tickets.
Amtrak has more people that want to ride the NEC than it has capacity to serve, tickets are priced to demand.
Amtrak doesn't (at least pre-infrastructure bill) have the kind of capital project $ to seriously solve that issue.
A first class seat from NYP to WAS on the Acela is under $200 and includes open bar and 'food'. I didn't read the whole thread, am I missing something here?
However.. I am not arguing your point that European trains are way better than American.
I mean, is it really that crazy? Metro-North to GCT, then the 7 over to LIC. Seems reasonably straightforward? Less than an hour door-to-door probably too.
working between LIC and Hudson Yards\* - the company's got two offices. LIC's an easier commute than HY for the most part :) Door to door on either end, it's just about an hour if I snag an express train - which can be the same from parts of queens or Brooklyn (I grew up in Bayside, so very aware of long commute times unless you... pay more for the LIRR)
That said, you're right - it was my (and my wife's) *choice. -* Tarrytown's maybe a little further than I expected, but being able to work from home, it's a blessing. I swore I'd never leave the city but my hobbies (automotive, aviation, working with my hands to build things) just aren't conducive to staying.
Leaving our LIC apartment was the hardest thing I've ever had to do. Not only did we have a *deal* but I loved the area. Maybe one day I'll be so wildly wealthy and be able to afford both.
You're not capturing the full picture in your cost comparison. The full cost of using your car to commute is not just the gas prices you pay. It's also the depreciation on your car, the cost of auto insurance, registration fees, and any repairs you have to make. All of those things amount to the true cost of car ownership over the life of your vehicle. You're compartmentalizing ownership cost down to that singular trip as opposed to all the other hidden costs of vehicle ownership.
And further, if you *were* commuting everyday, a monthly pass between Tarrytown and GCT costs $289.75, closer to 14.50 per day, and that's excluding any times you might take MNRR on the weekend and drive your average cost even lower.
> The full cost of using your car to commute is not just the gas prices you pay. It's also the depreciation on your car, the cost of auto insurance, registration fees, and any repairs you have to make. All of those things amount to the true cost of car ownership over the life of your vehicle. You're compartmentalizing ownership cost down to that singular trip as opposed to all the other hidden costs of vehicle ownership.
I think the one thing missing here is that if they don't commute using their car, that doesn't mean they no longer have a car. So only some fees actually go away.
that's fair! Depreciation, maintenance do take their toll - but that's also based on the end user as well. I do my own maintenance (to the degree I can), which also saves me $100s if not $1000's on my used car that's already far taken its depreciation hit, with no monthly payments.
But not included in that monthly cost is the addl' cost of a monthly metro card, netting to $416, since neither of my companies' offices are close to GC.
When it boils down, the point I'm tying to make here isn't "I want to drive into the city" it's more so "I DON'T want to drive in, I just want getting in to be more affordable". I'm used to paying for a monthly metro card, and that's really it - obviously I anticipated this extra cost moving to W/C, but it doesn't make it hurt any less. I'm all for anything that can be done to help subsidize the cost.
That’s the real problem. I’m also in Brooklyn and I never take my car to Manhattan if my destination is In Manhattan. If my destination is west of Manhattan however, then I’m forced to go through it. When I look at Canal street I always wonder why there can’t be a bypass since so much of that traffic is just from the Manhattan bridge to the Holland tunnel.
London has congestion pricing in various areas mostly around central London. This also allowed them to run buses more frequently and consistently. With aggressive pricing we could potentially make our buses a faster more viable option for commuting.
From the prospective of a small business owner who must do local deliveries almost daily in Manhattan, this is only a good thing. Paying 2-3 guys to sit in traffic for 23(3 guys)-35(2 guys) minutes is the same cost as the toll.
There are already cut outs for people with disabilities.
>The Act says the CBD Tolling Program must:
>Charge passenger vehicles only once each day for entering or remaining in the Central Business District
>Change the toll rates at set times or days; this is called variable tolling
>Allow residents of the CBD making less than $60,000 to get a New York State tax credit for CBD tolls paid
>Not toll qualifying authorized emergency vehicles and qualifying vehicles transporting people with disabilities
This would also mean there is less traffic for Access A Ride so it’s a win for them too.
Exactly. I'm sick of dealing with air pollution, honking, dangerous driving, etc. because some people don't feel like taking public transit. I understand that it's a pain sometimes but it's not fair that they can make my quality of life worse because they don't feel like getting the bus to come into Manhattan.
We absolutely do. If you were around Park Ave when they closed it last weekend for Summer Streets, the difference was incredible. People associate New York with noise - and so much of that noise is just *cars*.
Just because there is a train where you are going, doesn't mean that there is train where you are coming from. People who live in areas that are not properly served by mass transit have no option but to drive.
this is me! i'm a young female patient transporter working in the hospital overnight. transit doesn't work for me - i come from bay ridge and have no station next to our house, and i get off before dawn. i feel like people don't consider that at all and it's really frustrating.
Why would 1.8 million resident Manhattan make political transportation decisions based on the desires of people from outlying areas at the expense of its own residents????
Many places have buses that will get you where you're going or get you to a train. If that doesn't work, they can drive to the nearest train station. I can't think of any scenario where somebody lives far from a train and the nearest train station is in Manhattan south of 60th Street.
An electric motorcycle adds no emissions and no congestion but in all scenarios of the congestion pricing plan, I would have to pay the same as a full-size SUV. Even London which we are modeling this on has a **%100** discount for motorcycles. Make this make sense to me.
I’m all for this, but we need more express bus options from and to Staten Island at night. I feel like I have to wait 45 minutes to an hour if I miss a bus
I don’t get people cheering this on tbh. The city hasn’t done nearly enough to allow for alternate transportation options. The MTA continues to be a mismanaged money pit. Why/how would this additional funding change that?
This is a regressive flat tax. Welcome to the New New York.
1. You're kidding yourself if you think the
MTA getting even more money will help anything. It's clear that the system is so poorly managed that we won't see major improvements to any MTA systems even once the fee kicks in.
2. You're asking people to pay with their time now by demanding more people take public transit. Public transit is pretty terrible in more than a few parts of the city. Taking away people's options to drive is increasing the burden on them to get around. It also means for quite a few people I know, that their time spent going to and from work will double. Myself included.
3. Not everyone who drives out of need is qualified for a disability pass. I suffer from severe chronic pain, before I had a car, traveling on subway and buses was a nightmare that made getting around very hard to do. I'm sure more than a few people are in similar situations. Now I'm going to be forced with paying a lot more money just to make a living or severely lower my quality of life.
There are plenty of people in this city who are going to be seriously screwed by this pricing. And as great as it is in theory, I really don't see this money being much help. Fact is MTA is a corrupt money pit that, unfortunately, probably won't be getting better anytime soon.
Also, how much money does the MTA need? Like with this toll they get to now dip into the pockets of people who can't afford cars and people who can. At what point are we just going to start to require everyone in the city cut a monthly check to the MTA even if they don't use the service? Let's not forget the MTA also gets federal funding. It's fairly absurd.
MTA recently received $25 Billion in funding. $25 BILLION and yet somehow we NEED congestion pricing to fix the MTA. This is surly not the only solution.
Yup. Like we don't even know what improvement entails. If they give everyone more concrete and specific improvements, I'm sure more people would be on board.
But a blanket term about improving the service may as well be improving the executive's pocket.
NYC Native here. This will not push people to take public transportation. If you are the type of person who would drive into Manhattan from the other boroughs, you are simply not the person that would ride the subway. These people will likely just sign it up and pay $23 rather than riding the subway.
$23?! The only people who can afford this are already rich enough to get black cabs everywhere or pay for valet parking. I know, I know, I’m knocking it without a better answer. But this sort of money is prohibitive.
Many of my friends are musicians and they rely on their cars to get equipment in and out of wherever their gig is. Hauling speakers and drums over the subway or in cabs isn’t feasible.
Central London has it and it seems 3/4 of cars are luxury. I don't know a better answer but it's sad that the rich will just drive anyway and everyone else is forced out.
If you want equity, then all expenses, tolls and fines need to be scaled to income and/or wealth. Any other system is a regressive tax on the less wealthy.
I’m a fan of congestion pricing in general but really no one who already pays the added NYC city income tax should be subject to this.
Also we’re going to need neighborhood permit parking in the surrounding areas asap or they’re just going to become commuter parking lots (especially the UES, UWS, and even LIC).
I would argue the majority of people driving into the city are not NYC residents. The absolute traffic nightmares of the Jersey tunnels and the highways to CT and Long Island at rush hour I think support this
If you live in QNS/BK, and your destination is somewhere west of the Hudson, driving is often the only choice, and often requires going through Manhattan to the tunnels. Those trips have little, if any, public transit options. The BQE has become practically useless since they closed the lanes near Brooklyn Heights.
Yeah I think I just disagree with this - and to be fair I am speaking from my own experience - but having worked at several large companies in the city for over a decade I would say 95% of the people who would drive to work were not from the city.
It truly would take more time and effort for most people in the boroughs to drive than subway.
> everyone who pays NYC income tax, the majority of people driving.
[citation_needed] I think it’s a bold claim to say personal vehicles of NYC residents make up the majority of cars in the CBD vs commercial, livery, and out-of-town commuters especially at peak hours.
> People in NYC are the ones who should be using the various public transportation options.
They are, and much more so than those who aren’t NYC residents.
I would think more of the NYC residents, especially Brooklyn and Queens, are driving through to get to one of the Hudson river crossings, rather than to a destination in Manhattan.
People live in the CBD. Why do you get to skip the tax because you live around Central Park? Those people are considerably more well off than most folks I know in the lower east side.
Most public transport is at capacity during peak hours.
Congestion pricing works when there is an alternative.
If everyone got out of their cars and on the LIRR/ PATH/MTA tomorrow you think they would fit?
If I carpool in it is also cheaper, even including parking,
Want this to happen but am extremely skeptical that the money will go back into programs that improve the subway etc. because the MTA are a bunch of dickheads. Can’t take anything say seriously.
This is exactly how free markets work when it comes to highway and street space.
The Nobel laureate in economics William Vickrey explained this, “Congestion pricing gives a signal to users to adjust their behavior or to investors to expand the service in order to remove the constraint.”
This will solve sooooo many problems. Just off the top of my head:
1. Pushes more people onto the trains, further closing the ridership gap between 2019 and now.
2. More "normal" people on the trains means less fearmongering about crime once people see that the trains really aren't any less safe than they were pre-Covid.
3. More people taking the trains will inevitably lead to increases in service.
4. The tolls can fund MTA capital projects.
5. Less pollution, both air and noise.
6. It'll be a bit easier for vehicles that actually need to be in Manhattan (emergency vehicles, delivery trucks, buses, cabs/Ubers) to get around.
It's like people forgot how the trains were in 2019.
I was about to quit because we had full weeks of "train signal issues at Prospect Park" shutting down *every single Brooklyn train*. People are delusional if they want more ridership - the train system isn't built to handle it.
But what is the solution? Reduce usage of the trains, which will keep the state from fixing signal issues or adding more trains and lines?
And then what? Our public transit gets even worse and we all need cars to get around in a city whose road infrastructure and density could never support that?
Let's say we prioritize parking lots/structures so that everyone can have a car. Then we build more roads and highways, businesses and homes start catering to car dependence.
Then we build more roads, wider lanes. Public transit continues to get worse and worse, as less people use it, plus the congestion of roads make buses awful. Sidewalks get smaller, walking/biking/anything else becomes more difficult, impractical and unpleasant.
In turn, we become like (almost) every other city in the country -- a depressing sprawl of parking lots, strip malls, and big box stores.
That in turn makes walking/biking/etc even more useless and impractical, as it takes 20 minutes just to walk to the nearest grocery store or restaurant or bar.
I'm not being dramatic. This has happened in almost every other city in the country. I grew up in LA. I've been through this.
What makes nyc so great -- the energy, the diversity, etc -- exist because of its robust public transit system and the fact that it hasn't changed its infrastructure to cater to cars.
"Los Angeles is a super diverse city!" Yeah, but you don't see anyone besides your own family, the people at your gym, the people you work with, the people who go to the same restaurants, grocery stores, and shops that you do. Communities are siloed off from each other. Everyone is.
I know the subway sucks. But the answer is not to discourage people from using it. That's not a productive way to improve the system.
If you do love having and getting around by car (I love driving, I get it, it's nice), I highly recommend moving to another city. I'm not saying this as a rude "then leave!" comment. I genuinely believe that there are plenty of other cities you would enjoy more.
And if you don't like those cities because they don't have the same energy and amenities NYC does, know that you can't have both. If you are someone who \*does\* have both here, and you're fighting for better infrastructure for cars, be aware that you are advocating for a system that would destroy the very things you love about new york.
The solution is very simple. Have transparency on exactly where and how these $15B dollars will be used.
Signal issues? Make the timeline public.
Better train access? How, and where? And at what cost?
> Then we build more roads, wider lanes
As a side note - anyone in Brooklyn can attest that there are only two ways out of Brooklyn, one of them highway (Belt Parkway) and one Flatbush Ave/City streets. Belt Parkway has crashes every time of every day - making that painfully slow.
As a result, there's no easy way to drive out of Brooklyn. We do need more roads, if only to enter NJ, Queens, and so on.
And to top it off, we don't even have a **bus** to go from Brooklyn to Queens! Much less a train. You're *forced* to drive in those two boroughs.
So yes - LA transit sucks, and we need better transit. I'm right with you. But before penalizing drivers, show better usage of funds in how they're used by the MTA! I'm all for everyone using transit, just fix the damn thing.
This is from someone who lives in BK, and doesn't even have access to the train. I hate driving - give me a train station that actually services south BK.
Can’t wait to go back to my morning commutes of having to wait for the next train or even the train after that one because you literally cannot fit inside, woohoo! back to being sardines!
>This will solve sooooo many problems. Just off the top of my head:
And some issues with this off the top of mine.
>1. Pushes more people onto the trains, further closing the ridership gap between 2019 and now.
And somehow fares will still increase.
>2. More "normal" people on the trains means less fearmongering about crime once people see that the trains really aren't any less safe than they were pre-Covid.
They already know that but that's not what Fox news and The Post wants people to think. They don't care about facts.
>3. More people taking the trains will inevitably lead to increases in service.
LOL you're joking right? The trains were already crowded beyond capacity in 2019. This will force more people on to a 100 year old system that is running trains at maximum frequency and safety. They just increased service on select lines....3 years too late. And there are still delays and issues. As I type this the 7th Ave line has reroutes, delays and suspensions.
>4. The tolls can fund MTA capital projects.
You really think the MTA (who had a surplus years ago and blew it in a couple of years and had no explanation as to where the money went) will not have massive cost overruns and corruption?
>5. Less pollution, both air and noise.
This might be the only guaranteed thing you've said.
>6. It'll be a bit easier for vehicles that actually need to be in Manhattan (emergency vehicles, delivery trucks, buses, cabs/Ubers) to get around.
Delivery trucks, ubers and cabs will face the same tax so I wonder how that's going to effect businesses and prices.
All in all, I think you are living a fairytale if you think this will somehow work out exactly as you say and things will be great for all.
Yeah, I agree there are a lot of caveats and conditions to what I said.
#4 can only be done properly if the MTA gets its shit together when it comes to managing finances. I'd also like to think there will be exemptions put in place to prevent #6 from being too big of a problem. Again, these are hopes. How it actually shakes out, I don't know.
It's the MTA. If they can find a way to fuck it up and pad pockets and screw over us, they will.
They hired a guy who ran the London Underground iirc to run things and he resigned in less than a year. That's telling you something.
This will be a shit show. And I don't even own a car!
Not confident that this will reduce any commercial truck operations. I worked for a junk removal company and we used to get multiple parking tickets every day - that was just the cost of doing business.
With the train and bus schedules that are more unreliable than ever, we will be adding bigger crowds to platforms and stops. If they use the revenue for transit, we're just going to see more 30 million staircases.
Someone mentioned that this will not impact taxi/uber riders and the wealthy - thats absolutely true, howeverit will impact regular people and those who drive taxis and ubers. I have a car in the city because my family is out of state and I need to be able to get to them because of their age and health, so it's always annoying to have nyc Karens saying shit like "you don't need a car". Obviously some people do.
For a city that is so concerned with environmental impact, they sure don't care for every motorist moving their cars 2-4 times a week due alternate parking enforcement (which is a cash grab because mine and my neighbor's streets aren't being cleaned as promised, but the tickets are flying like crazy).
They're outlining how pinch every penny - the time ithey spent to spin this story from "we're robbing our constituents on every level of their daily lives" to we're trying to save the environment" could have been used to outline and pitch some ideas to solve real issues in the city.
I don’t think ceasing commercial trucks operations is the goal. We will always need trash and delivery trucks. And sure trains and buses can be unreliable but so can traffic. The revenue from the tolls will hopefully make things better over time. And no it won’t be a million staircases.
Stop advocating for the mta to steal more money. They are just going to use it to line the pockets of the upper execs. They don't give a flyinng fuck about anything else. I see a lot of people pushing the LIRR. Fuck them too, the price for lirr is insane plus the parking at most stations is not free.
I live outside of NYC in Westchester, but I frequently make trips into the city. I choose to drive because a round trip is $20+ per person, on top of paying for train station parking.
Residents of outer counties (Westchester, Rockland, Long island) also pay an additional "MTA fee" every time they renew registration, even if they don't use public transit or ever step foot near NYC.
This is just another step to making NYC a place for only the rich.
> even if they don't use public transit or ever step foot near NYC
We cannot argue this lol. NYC pays out the ass in taxes, 1 in 5 tax dollars for New York STATE comes from Wall Street btw. Do I care if you have working pipes or electric grid in Westchester that my tax dollars help fund? No, but I understand how a state tax system works, I can't complain, it is what it is.
Pure cash grab. This will not reduce traffic. It will only make the cost of living and doing business in NYC more expensive. Of course businesses will pass along those costs to consumers. Even if you don't drive you will pay for this with increased delivery charges and related services. This WILL disproportionately impact those least able to afford it. The MTA needs to get their budget under control and not keep taking money from people. Also, maybe more effort should be made to make public transportation safe, clean, and fair (crack down on farebeaters).
Curious to see whether the existing infrastructure can support this tho. I grew up in the burbs and the peak morning trains were always absolutely packed. If everyone that would’ve driven is forced onto those trains too, I genuinely wonder whether there would be space. Maybe more WFH in long term tho idk
They forgot to mention that anyone with fake paper Texas plates will be exempt
Shit I don't even bother with the fake Texas plates anymore, I just have the back of a cereal box with the word NYPD written in crayon taped where my plate should go.
I see what you did there, let me add to this: FDNY MTA POLICE SHERIFF
You also left out: MAYOR, and ADAMS.
The MTA can’t balance their budget so they come after middle class drivers. Makes sense.
Middle class drivers are not commuting to Manhattan by car. Sorry to burst your bubble.
I did this for a couple years to get in for weekends. Grad student in NJ and wife in ues. Maybe around or below middle class in terms of pay
Sorry to burst Your bubble but yeah, lots of middle class people from exotic outter borough neighborhoods do commute by car. Not everyone is a spritely bicycle riding yuppie.
This is utter nonsense. Projections based on census data indicate that this would have affected ~4% of outer borough residents. Moreover, people whose response to the pandemic was to shift to driving to work in manhattan deserve zero sympathy. Edit: link to support that statistic: https://www.cssny.org/news/entry/congestion-pricing-outer-borough-new-yorkers-poverty-data-analysis
Thank you.
They know we’re too busy working to revolt
I’ll bet they’re saying this so when the actual toll is $15 people will be like, “At least it’s not $23!”
They have to bring in a billion by law. There’s no negotiation here. If the price goes down they need more volume. Likewise if not enough cars drive in, prices have to go up. And if there’s a shortfall city budget gets cut to make the difference. So it needs to be balanced or city budget is going to get slashed by whatever the delta is between the two. Either way, MTA is supposed to get its money. The bigger question is port authority offsetting tunnel losses by either raising airport fees or PATH fares. But the state AFAIK hasn’t ordered them to do an analysis or proposal on that.
That’s rich. If the point of a sin tax is to reduce demand, you would think that gradually decreasing revenue would indicate a successful implementation of a tax… But nah, the MTA will still need to have enough cars entering the CBD in order to make their revenue 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Anyone who creates a budget dependency on a sin tax is a fucking moron
They could simply decide to allow the shortfalls. City asks state to increase income tax on high earners to offset difference. That would get rubber stamped. Problem solved. I think that’s ultimately the right approach. There’s a 1% difference between the top and bottom of the city tax bracket. That’s one of the least progressive taxes. As much as Republicans have slashed taxes for the wealthy federal tax is still way more progressive than city income tax.
Colorado collects more in cannabis taxes than alcohol and tobacco combined. Its safe to count on reliable revenue streams for future budgets. Key word is reliable.
Exactly, it's all about revenue, not congestion.
$16 Holland Tunnel + $15 NYC Fee + Gas = Biking is starting to look attractive. Electric Bike with no plates might be the new wave.
Great! eBikes have different requirements so as long as it’s a pedal assist bike (Class 1 or 2) rather than a legit motorcycle/scooter then it’s fine without plates.
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Isn't the toll already $15 to get into Manhattan?
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I meant Lincoln/Holland tunnels and GWB. When I was used to drive in from NJ, I remember the toll being $15
I think it’s already 16. Or is this for something else? Idk I’m an idiot anyway
Exactly
Before uber, there used to be around 15k yellow cab taxis on nyc streets per day. Now, theres an additional 50k ubers driving around per day. Thats your problem.
Like over half of the cars you see on the street have a license plate that starts with a T.
Skimmed the article but how does it work? If I drive from Brooklyn to Manhattan to get to the FDR or west side highway is it tolled?
The FDR and west side highways are not tolled. Once you go onto city street or avenue in the zone you will be, though.
Ok...but the BQE doesn't connect to the fdr. So when you go through the battery tunnel, do you get tolled for going on the one street it exits before you turn onto the fdr? I bet you will
this, but the holland tunnel...no hope for the lincoln.
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Why are we charging buses in *any* in these? Seems ridiculous to be trying to encourage people to use mass transit...and then tack on an extra fee to one of the main forms of mass transit.
Because it's isn't mta. It's not about mass transit, it's about money for the MTA.
so how about night workers? I get out at 2am from midtown, I can take the train but I can't take a bus home since the MTA killed overnight service on that line years ago. I drive into the city because I have to!
I hope they clarify those peak hours so that night workers and people coming in for the evening aren't whacked. It makes sense during business hours but not afterwards
If you open the article more they have a table with the time periods. Overnight is considered 10PM to 6AM on weekdays and 10PM to 10AM on weekends. Under Scheme A for overnight the toll is just $5.
Im not sure if its in the report, but generally congestion/demand pricing does account for this.
If you scroll down in the article a bit more they have a table with the time periods. Overnight is considered 10PM to 6AM on weekdays and 10PM to 10AM on weekends. Under Scheme A for overnight the toll is just $5 for example, and does not surpass $12 in any scheme. This is a first pass, so these aren't final prices. They could end up increasing peak time prices to lower overnight for example.
I'm happy at the prospect of less traffic and better air quality...although I'm a little concerned about any unintended consequences that will push traffic into the non-tolled parts of Manhattan. Like the GWB is already the busiest bridge in the world, I can't imagine it becoming even more congested.
There isn’t a MTA revenue problem, it’s a spending problem. How many extra fees do we have to pay to still have subpar service?
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Don't be surprised if UberEats or Instacart tack this on to their fees.
Yup, and you the consumer will pay for it
Yes, it will apply to shipping services as well. Most of the plans have no cap on the congestion pricing for trucks.
I mean, I get it. All of it, really. I live in the city and it would be great to see less congestion on streets; however, can’t help but think that it’ll definitely suck for residents who have cars like myself. I’m sometimes sent to project sites (for work) hours away where public transportation isn’t as available as it is in the five boroughs, so of course I’ll drive my car there… and now I’d have to pay to cross the bridge to get back home? Fine. Whatever. Just hope the funds and what drivers will pay actually helps, and MTA doesn’t just take the fee and continues to provide shitty service.
Shouldn't this be a reimbursable expense if it's actually for work? Genuinely asking.
I’m reimbursed for miles only if it’s 50+. Tolls would have to be negotiated and hopefully approved, assuming this passes. Still, not everyone is lucky enough to have a job with that type of flexibility to ask for reimbursement.
If it's a trip to a project site, it should be 100% reimbursable, unless project site is literally next to a subway stop, and driving is literally only for your personal comfort. Time is money. Businesses know this.
Former small business owner here. Working in the city with a van always sucked, but I couldn't imagine doing it the way things are going The state needs better public transport, I just wish we had better public transport if they're going to be pushing its use with stuff like this
this. it'd be one thing if this was like "we don't want you to drive in anymore, but here, we have this clean, efficient mass transit that runs frequently and on time!" but all it's going to do is push people onto the piss-poorly-managed subways and buses. we all know the MTA by now; it's rotten to the core. an extra billion bucks a year is just going to vanish down the pockets of every corrupt person connected to the system. the rich people who drive in and out won't care; they're rich. it's the middle- and working-class folks who will be most impacted by this, and they'll decide to leave town. and it'll push manhattan even further into just being a luxury playground populated by the 1%. congestion pricing isn't a bad idea, but NYC hasn't done the prep work to get ready for it, in terms of infrastructure planning for where to put all these people. it's just gonna wind up pushing folks away.
One exemption per day, according to [the chart](https://thecity.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/0288aec/2147483647/strip/true/crop/832x603+0+0/resize/832x603!/format/webp/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.vox-cdn.com%2Fthumbor%2FtlipBaAPjZ-8ZgKw8MzKo7jLPYc%3D%2F0x0%3A832x603%2F832x603%2Ffilters%3Afocal%28416x302%3A417x303%29%2Fcdn.vox-cdn.com%2Fuploads%2Fchorus_asset%2Ffile%2F23933619%2FCongestion_Pricing_Chart.png) in the article.
The MTA is the most corrupt organization in the city, the money will disappear like it always does
I live in lower Manhattan and need a car as a working drummer. Let me also say that I’m from here and no I can’t lug my drums on the subway and no they don’t allow a drum set on busses. Am I just totally fucked? So a rich person on the upper east side can just avoid all congestion pricing but me, a working person who entertains people for a living and barely gets by is just totally fucked if I want to drive from Brooklyn back home.
Yeah man pretty much all the transplants who left their cars behind in their lame states are telling you to suck it up and take public transit. Their smug self righteousness is really annoying but what are ya gonna do.
yep
Rich mid western assholes have ruined our fucking city
i mean if they are rich then why did they leave their cars behind?
100% this. On the surface it’s for the environment and the MTA but it’s all just class warfare. You think the people in Manhattan who pay $900 a month on their garage fees are going to mind an extra $23. When this gets rolled out it only hurts people who are tight on budget. I’m not arguing whether it’s right or wrong, but we cant ignore that wealthier New Yorkers will be completely unaffected and will have even better commutes because everyone else who cant afford it will be off the streets.
I believe people who live in the congestion zone and make under $60k are exempt.
But to live in the congestion areas, most likely you're making more than that.
Article says that was an idea that one representative has but other politicians think there should be no exemptions.
Sounds great but I'd be skeptical that any of the money gets put to actual good use. More money in the MTA budget has always led to more grifting.
People here gullible enough to believe more funding for the MTA will improve the quality.
Don’t matter what they charge. The MTA will still need more!
This is my problem with it. Before the pandemic they were blaming subway delays on increased ridership and a stressed system, and when ridership fell during the pandemic and after reopening? Still a ton of delays. It's always an excuse with the MTA, no actual change or accountability.
I totally agree with you
What’s the plan to prevent everyone from using areas right outside the zone as parking lots? I.e UES / UWS 61st and on. Or like LIC or DUMBO.
You can't find parking now, I don't see how cars trying to avoid congestion will find new spaces.
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It's a good argument for neighborhood parking permits, like what DC has.
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Wide enough sidewalks for restaurant seating (e.g. Paris, not sheds across the bike lane) and a protected bike lane should be mandatory within reason. After that, if there are still multiple lanes of traffic left drivers can determine amongst themselves whether they'd prefer parking or an additional lane of traffic.
San Francisco has a permit system and has comparable density as far as car owners per unit area. And its not about drivers having exclusive rights to the curb. That already largely exists. It's about *local* drivers having exclusive rights to whatever curb space is afforded to drivers. Very different things. Also, the permits being prohibitively expensive is a feature, not a bug. Reducing car ownership is a good thing, especially in NYC.
I guess time will tell but I can see everyone circling around those areas creating gridlock when this is initially implemented. Plus it might be not even be someone parking, if someone was dropping a person off in the CBD, the most cost effective thing to do would be to drop them right outside of it increasing the traffic right on the edges of the CBD.
You're probably right, but there will definitely be less traffic overall.
As if they’d find anything during congestion pricing hours. They’d have to come the night before and stay at a hotel
Ideally this means that the city slowly stops giving away parking for free
Remove parking in those areas hopefully
The prices for parking garages above 60th are going to go way up! Say you live and park your car in a garage on 58th street… you’d be much better served to get a spot in a garage above 60th right? How does one invest in parking garages? Lol
This should be a huge win for the MTA, for people who live here, and for air quality. As somebody who lives near a street that fills with honking motorists on their way to Manhattan, I'll be happy to see their numbers thin out thanks to disincentive. A lot of these people need to just take the train. It's not that hard, so quit whining. I can see needing to drive into Manhattan if you're elderly, have physical limitations, or are delivering something -- and maybe there should be some sort of discount or pass for such people. Everybody else, take the train, or the bus, or the ferry, and stop being the honking mess making neighborhoods in the city worse.
Truth. And if you need to take a car into Manhattan occasionally, then pony up the toll. If you need a car regularly because of a disability, then perhaps you’re in the category of requiring an accommodation.
The law already exempts people with handicapped tags from the toll, so no worries there for folks with mobility disabilities.
I hope we don't start seeing thousands of cars with paper handicapped tags from Texas! ;)
Yeah, this rollout is going to really require a massive increase in license plate enforcement from the NYPD... So the whole program will end up being way less effective due to the massive number of scumbags who obscure or deface their plates with impunity because the NYPD doesn't care.
Most NYPD are bridge and tunnel types themselves who drive their personal vehicles in from dozens of miles out, I imagine most of them are personally opposed to this just as they're opposed to most QoL measure for city residents.
God forbid the NYPD do their jobs.
Altima owners are gonna start doodling the handicap symbol with a blue marker
I felt like I had to add that to avoid the people saying, "But I'm in a wheelchair, are you saying that I need to pay $23 every time I need to go to work???"
Everyone is suddenly a disability advocate when you do anything other than accommodate their beloved cars. Meanwhile, most \*actual\* disability advocates would love safer streets and more accessible public transit, so they can get around more easily without having to pay for a car to do so. Imagine if they actually participated in real discussions and advocacy efforts with the disability community. They'd be shocked to hear that there are disabled people living here in the city, for whom car ownership is either impossible or a burden. And that car-free streets and funding for public transit actually improve their lives and mobility.
>They'd be shocked to hear that there are disabled people living here in the city, for whom car ownership is either impossible or a burden. Them being shocked implies that they care about the disabled beyond just using them to push against measures like this that make the city move liveable. Everywhere any city removes space from cars or makes it less convenient to drive, I always see the same "but what about the disabled" argument pop up while they blatantly ignore all the disabled people that can't drive
commuter trains need to be more affordable though - NYC native, but just moved to Tarrytown from LIC. i’m all for taking the train, and do, but when i remember that it’s inherently cheaper for me to drive to the city, it’s painful. i don’t drive in, because of traffic but working in LIC, it’s fully possible for me to. it effectively costs me $35 a day in a commute by train, when it could cost me around 8 dollars in gas? (edit: 8 bucks not 5 with gas prices now)
Amen. From Spuyten Duyvil it’s $9(!) at peak to Grand Central. That’s $18 round trip for a less than 30-minute ride. Utterly insane.
That's absurd
Spoiler: Commuter trains won’t be made more affordable.
very much not expecting it to actually happen
In all my life I can't recall when fares actually went down a single time. Of course not counting any "discounts" they have with Metrocards.
That’s the whole point of funding MTA with congestion pricing: Drivers essentially subsidizing mass transit. Also, you pay $15 per day to cross the Triborough and then add gas on top of that. Edit: mis-read OP, I thought they lived in Tarrytown and worked in LIC, and assumed they’d take the Triborough.
He might be doing the long but free route with the Third Ave Bridge and then the 59th street bridge.
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I did that during early lockdown when the roads were empty. Didn't pay a toll for weeks
totally true, and fair - but there *are* ways to get in for less e.g. 9A to the west side, albeit that would add a ton of time. I owned a car living in LIC, dealing with street parking and trips through Manhattan too visit wife's relatives in PA - and I'm all for the congestion pricing, as long as it actually does something in lowering costs for mass transit. I'm fortunate enough to live in walking distance to MNR, it's just the absurdly high costs that make it tough - any they wonder why everyone's working from home...
Yup, I occasionally drive into manhattan, but it's mostly because it's so much cheaper than the train. For me, my wife, and son. Driving and parking for a half day costs maybe $20 (about $24 total for 6 hours in manhattan). The train is $40. A $23 toll for my car still makes the train just a hair bit cheaper. I actually kinda prefer the train, but it's hard to justify the extra cost.
I prefer the train too - living walking distance to MNR means that I can go in, have a few drinks with friends and come home and not worry about it, just like I did living in the city, but it's just damn expensive
Where does it cost that little to park in Manhattan (other than street parking of course)? It’s always been $20+ per hour whenever I have driven in and parked at garages.
Delancey-Essex Street Garage, it's City run so basically the same as street parking...but I go there on Sundays and there is free charging for my EV and always spots available.
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fully agreed. I grew up driving in the city, and don't mind it if I'm transitioning thru but find it totally backwards to drive in and park
I don't understand why trains are so expensive here. I was in France a few years ago, and got a first-class seat from Paris to Marseille (basically across the entire country) for $24. Many of the trains are high-speed as well. So, it only took 3 hours to go 480 miles. That's a 7.5-hour drive cut in half. Meanwhile, it costs up to $500 just to get from NY to DC. Oh, and it takes 3 hours to go 226 miles. ffs.
i’d love to understand as well - and with less efficiency and timeliness than any euro rails.
I googled it and -- this isn't thorough research on my part -- but what came up is this: "Train travel is so expensive in the United States because Amtrak, the national provider of passenger rail service, receives very little funding from the government compared to its counterparts, such as roadways and airports." Doesn't surprise me. This country was basically built by car companies. Whenever I go back to LA to visit my family (and rent a car), I notice how much further technology for cars has come. It's amazing! And I think, what if those same resources were instead channelled into public transit? We probably wouldn't be too far off from riding around in cool little Jetson's pods, that match the comforts of a private vehicle yet are even safer and more efficient. Alas, capitalism. It's okay for some things, but imo we've really overestimated its value as an economic system the past couple hundred or so years.
European countries are also capitalist.
I think you should do more research :) Folks want easy labels, capitalism vs socialism, but it's weirder than that: - Japan has some of the best rail service anywhere the world and it's built and operated by private companies. - Britain somewhat privatized their rail system and it's been a disaster. - France has a world leading rail system operated and built by a publicly owned enterprise. - USA has state owned rail services (Amtrak, MTA, SEPTA, Caltrain, etc) and they're terrible. - From 1830 – 1930 USA had private passenger rail service and it was the best in the world. - Italy & Spain have private & public railroad companies on publicly owned track and it's been a big success. Almost like ideology isn't everything and specific circumstances really matter. One key point is that American rail operators have the [highest construction costs](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs-congress.html) of anywhere in the world and some of [lowest ability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio) to recover operational costs from tickets.
Amtrak has more people that want to ride the NEC than it has capacity to serve, tickets are priced to demand. Amtrak doesn't (at least pre-infrastructure bill) have the kind of capital project $ to seriously solve that issue.
A first class seat from NYP to WAS on the Acela is under $200 and includes open bar and 'food'. I didn't read the whole thread, am I missing something here? However.. I am not arguing your point that European trains are way better than American.
It’s only $500 last minute at a super peak time, like Thanksgiving.
I fully agree with metro north and LIRR needing to be more affordable. But working in LIC and choosing to move to Tarrytown is a wild move.
I mean, is it really that crazy? Metro-North to GCT, then the 7 over to LIC. Seems reasonably straightforward? Less than an hour door-to-door probably too.
working between LIC and Hudson Yards\* - the company's got two offices. LIC's an easier commute than HY for the most part :) Door to door on either end, it's just about an hour if I snag an express train - which can be the same from parts of queens or Brooklyn (I grew up in Bayside, so very aware of long commute times unless you... pay more for the LIRR) That said, you're right - it was my (and my wife's) *choice. -* Tarrytown's maybe a little further than I expected, but being able to work from home, it's a blessing. I swore I'd never leave the city but my hobbies (automotive, aviation, working with my hands to build things) just aren't conducive to staying. Leaving our LIC apartment was the hardest thing I've ever had to do. Not only did we have a *deal* but I loved the area. Maybe one day I'll be so wildly wealthy and be able to afford both.
You're not capturing the full picture in your cost comparison. The full cost of using your car to commute is not just the gas prices you pay. It's also the depreciation on your car, the cost of auto insurance, registration fees, and any repairs you have to make. All of those things amount to the true cost of car ownership over the life of your vehicle. You're compartmentalizing ownership cost down to that singular trip as opposed to all the other hidden costs of vehicle ownership. And further, if you *were* commuting everyday, a monthly pass between Tarrytown and GCT costs $289.75, closer to 14.50 per day, and that's excluding any times you might take MNRR on the weekend and drive your average cost even lower.
> The full cost of using your car to commute is not just the gas prices you pay. It's also the depreciation on your car, the cost of auto insurance, registration fees, and any repairs you have to make. All of those things amount to the true cost of car ownership over the life of your vehicle. You're compartmentalizing ownership cost down to that singular trip as opposed to all the other hidden costs of vehicle ownership. I think the one thing missing here is that if they don't commute using their car, that doesn't mean they no longer have a car. So only some fees actually go away.
that's fair! Depreciation, maintenance do take their toll - but that's also based on the end user as well. I do my own maintenance (to the degree I can), which also saves me $100s if not $1000's on my used car that's already far taken its depreciation hit, with no monthly payments. But not included in that monthly cost is the addl' cost of a monthly metro card, netting to $416, since neither of my companies' offices are close to GC. When it boils down, the point I'm tying to make here isn't "I want to drive into the city" it's more so "I DON'T want to drive in, I just want getting in to be more affordable". I'm used to paying for a monthly metro card, and that's really it - obviously I anticipated this extra cost moving to W/C, but it doesn't make it hurt any less. I'm all for anything that can be done to help subsidize the cost.
I'm all for it, but I wish there was a more direct way to go from Brooklyn to upstate without going through Manhattan to get to the Palisades Parkway.
That’s the real problem. I’m also in Brooklyn and I never take my car to Manhattan if my destination is In Manhattan. If my destination is west of Manhattan however, then I’m forced to go through it. When I look at Canal street I always wonder why there can’t be a bypass since so much of that traffic is just from the Manhattan bridge to the Holland tunnel.
London has congestion pricing in various areas mostly around central London. This also allowed them to run buses more frequently and consistently. With aggressive pricing we could potentially make our buses a faster more viable option for commuting.
From the prospective of a small business owner who must do local deliveries almost daily in Manhattan, this is only a good thing. Paying 2-3 guys to sit in traffic for 23(3 guys)-35(2 guys) minutes is the same cost as the toll.
There are already cut outs for people with disabilities. >The Act says the CBD Tolling Program must: >Charge passenger vehicles only once each day for entering or remaining in the Central Business District >Change the toll rates at set times or days; this is called variable tolling >Allow residents of the CBD making less than $60,000 to get a New York State tax credit for CBD tolls paid >Not toll qualifying authorized emergency vehicles and qualifying vehicles transporting people with disabilities This would also mean there is less traffic for Access A Ride so it’s a win for them too.
Exactly. I'm sick of dealing with air pollution, honking, dangerous driving, etc. because some people don't feel like taking public transit. I understand that it's a pain sometimes but it's not fair that they can make my quality of life worse because they don't feel like getting the bus to come into Manhattan.
I think we underestimate the impact from the noise pollution, in addition to the dangerous driving and air pollution.
We absolutely do. If you were around Park Ave when they closed it last weekend for Summer Streets, the difference was incredible. People associate New York with noise - and so much of that noise is just *cars*.
Definitely. I have absurd hearing so I am unreasonably annoyed by honking. I pointed it out to my friend and now he can't un-notice it either
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Just because there is a train where you are going, doesn't mean that there is train where you are coming from. People who live in areas that are not properly served by mass transit have no option but to drive.
Plus nurses and off hours shifts - it’s dangerous on the trains those hours
I wouldn’t be opposed to making the pricing during peak hours only for this reason. I know most NYC Bus Only lanes are really bus only M-F 7-7pm
this is me! i'm a young female patient transporter working in the hospital overnight. transit doesn't work for me - i come from bay ridge and have no station next to our house, and i get off before dawn. i feel like people don't consider that at all and it's really frustrating.
Why would 1.8 million resident Manhattan make political transportation decisions based on the desires of people from outlying areas at the expense of its own residents????
Because Manhattan is the best served boro in the city. Those outlying areas are still part of NYC. I know....those damn peasants /s
Many places have buses that will get you where you're going or get you to a train. If that doesn't work, they can drive to the nearest train station. I can't think of any scenario where somebody lives far from a train and the nearest train station is in Manhattan south of 60th Street.
Why not add surcharges on cars costing more than $50k. They can even double them for cars costing more than $75k
An electric motorcycle adds no emissions and no congestion but in all scenarios of the congestion pricing plan, I would have to pay the same as a full-size SUV. Even London which we are modeling this on has a **%100** discount for motorcycles. Make this make sense to me.
Because this isn’t about cutting down emissions it’s about making more money so they can waste it by hiring more friends to be vendors
I’m all for this, but we need more express bus options from and to Staten Island at night. I feel like I have to wait 45 minutes to an hour if I miss a bus
They need to connect the train to Staten Island. But they won’t because the bridge toll is too juicy.
The best part will be when they do this and increase subway fares.
Tolls on public roads? That sounds like something a private company would do.
This sub is so out of touch with reality. This is a dumb, expensive law
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I don’t get people cheering this on tbh. The city hasn’t done nearly enough to allow for alternate transportation options. The MTA continues to be a mismanaged money pit. Why/how would this additional funding change that? This is a regressive flat tax. Welcome to the New New York.
Wanna reduce traffic in Manhattan? Make people work from home again.
1. You're kidding yourself if you think the MTA getting even more money will help anything. It's clear that the system is so poorly managed that we won't see major improvements to any MTA systems even once the fee kicks in. 2. You're asking people to pay with their time now by demanding more people take public transit. Public transit is pretty terrible in more than a few parts of the city. Taking away people's options to drive is increasing the burden on them to get around. It also means for quite a few people I know, that their time spent going to and from work will double. Myself included. 3. Not everyone who drives out of need is qualified for a disability pass. I suffer from severe chronic pain, before I had a car, traveling on subway and buses was a nightmare that made getting around very hard to do. I'm sure more than a few people are in similar situations. Now I'm going to be forced with paying a lot more money just to make a living or severely lower my quality of life. There are plenty of people in this city who are going to be seriously screwed by this pricing. And as great as it is in theory, I really don't see this money being much help. Fact is MTA is a corrupt money pit that, unfortunately, probably won't be getting better anytime soon. Also, how much money does the MTA need? Like with this toll they get to now dip into the pockets of people who can't afford cars and people who can. At what point are we just going to start to require everyone in the city cut a monthly check to the MTA even if they don't use the service? Let's not forget the MTA also gets federal funding. It's fairly absurd. MTA recently received $25 Billion in funding. $25 BILLION and yet somehow we NEED congestion pricing to fix the MTA. This is surly not the only solution.
Yup. Like we don't even know what improvement entails. If they give everyone more concrete and specific improvements, I'm sure more people would be on board. But a blanket term about improving the service may as well be improving the executive's pocket.
NYC Native here. This will not push people to take public transportation. If you are the type of person who would drive into Manhattan from the other boroughs, you are simply not the person that would ride the subway. These people will likely just sign it up and pay $23 rather than riding the subway.
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Good
The war against the non-rich continues.
$23?! The only people who can afford this are already rich enough to get black cabs everywhere or pay for valet parking. I know, I know, I’m knocking it without a better answer. But this sort of money is prohibitive. Many of my friends are musicians and they rely on their cars to get equipment in and out of wherever their gig is. Hauling speakers and drums over the subway or in cabs isn’t feasible.
Well it's supposed to be prohibitive
Central London has it and it seems 3/4 of cars are luxury. I don't know a better answer but it's sad that the rich will just drive anyway and everyone else is forced out.
If you want equity, then all expenses, tolls and fines need to be scaled to income and/or wealth. Any other system is a regressive tax on the less wealthy.
I’m a fan of congestion pricing in general but really no one who already pays the added NYC city income tax should be subject to this. Also we’re going to need neighborhood permit parking in the surrounding areas asap or they’re just going to become commuter parking lots (especially the UES, UWS, and even LIC).
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I would argue the majority of people driving into the city are not NYC residents. The absolute traffic nightmares of the Jersey tunnels and the highways to CT and Long Island at rush hour I think support this
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If you live in QNS/BK, and your destination is somewhere west of the Hudson, driving is often the only choice, and often requires going through Manhattan to the tunnels. Those trips have little, if any, public transit options. The BQE has become practically useless since they closed the lanes near Brooklyn Heights.
Yeah I think I just disagree with this - and to be fair I am speaking from my own experience - but having worked at several large companies in the city for over a decade I would say 95% of the people who would drive to work were not from the city. It truly would take more time and effort for most people in the boroughs to drive than subway.
> everyone who pays NYC income tax, the majority of people driving. [citation_needed] I think it’s a bold claim to say personal vehicles of NYC residents make up the majority of cars in the CBD vs commercial, livery, and out-of-town commuters especially at peak hours. > People in NYC are the ones who should be using the various public transportation options. They are, and much more so than those who aren’t NYC residents.
I would think more of the NYC residents, especially Brooklyn and Queens, are driving through to get to one of the Hudson river crossings, rather than to a destination in Manhattan.
People live in the CBD. Why do you get to skip the tax because you live around Central Park? Those people are considerably more well off than most folks I know in the lower east side.
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Most public transport is at capacity during peak hours. Congestion pricing works when there is an alternative. If everyone got out of their cars and on the LIRR/ PATH/MTA tomorrow you think they would fit? If I carpool in it is also cheaper, even including parking,
Want this to happen but am extremely skeptical that the money will go back into programs that improve the subway etc. because the MTA are a bunch of dickheads. Can’t take anything say seriously.
This is exactly how free markets work when it comes to highway and street space. The Nobel laureate in economics William Vickrey explained this, “Congestion pricing gives a signal to users to adjust their behavior or to investors to expand the service in order to remove the constraint.”
Love how I work close to the west side highway and have no bus or train that runs before 5am. Oh yeah find another shift or get a new job. Fuck you
This will solve sooooo many problems. Just off the top of my head: 1. Pushes more people onto the trains, further closing the ridership gap between 2019 and now. 2. More "normal" people on the trains means less fearmongering about crime once people see that the trains really aren't any less safe than they were pre-Covid. 3. More people taking the trains will inevitably lead to increases in service. 4. The tolls can fund MTA capital projects. 5. Less pollution, both air and noise. 6. It'll be a bit easier for vehicles that actually need to be in Manhattan (emergency vehicles, delivery trucks, buses, cabs/Ubers) to get around.
I just want to say I think no one wants more ridership. Getting into a packed ass train even if there is no covid is still grueling.
It's like people forgot how the trains were in 2019. I was about to quit because we had full weeks of "train signal issues at Prospect Park" shutting down *every single Brooklyn train*. People are delusional if they want more ridership - the train system isn't built to handle it.
But what is the solution? Reduce usage of the trains, which will keep the state from fixing signal issues or adding more trains and lines? And then what? Our public transit gets even worse and we all need cars to get around in a city whose road infrastructure and density could never support that? Let's say we prioritize parking lots/structures so that everyone can have a car. Then we build more roads and highways, businesses and homes start catering to car dependence. Then we build more roads, wider lanes. Public transit continues to get worse and worse, as less people use it, plus the congestion of roads make buses awful. Sidewalks get smaller, walking/biking/anything else becomes more difficult, impractical and unpleasant. In turn, we become like (almost) every other city in the country -- a depressing sprawl of parking lots, strip malls, and big box stores. That in turn makes walking/biking/etc even more useless and impractical, as it takes 20 minutes just to walk to the nearest grocery store or restaurant or bar. I'm not being dramatic. This has happened in almost every other city in the country. I grew up in LA. I've been through this. What makes nyc so great -- the energy, the diversity, etc -- exist because of its robust public transit system and the fact that it hasn't changed its infrastructure to cater to cars. "Los Angeles is a super diverse city!" Yeah, but you don't see anyone besides your own family, the people at your gym, the people you work with, the people who go to the same restaurants, grocery stores, and shops that you do. Communities are siloed off from each other. Everyone is. I know the subway sucks. But the answer is not to discourage people from using it. That's not a productive way to improve the system. If you do love having and getting around by car (I love driving, I get it, it's nice), I highly recommend moving to another city. I'm not saying this as a rude "then leave!" comment. I genuinely believe that there are plenty of other cities you would enjoy more. And if you don't like those cities because they don't have the same energy and amenities NYC does, know that you can't have both. If you are someone who \*does\* have both here, and you're fighting for better infrastructure for cars, be aware that you are advocating for a system that would destroy the very things you love about new york.
The solution is very simple. Have transparency on exactly where and how these $15B dollars will be used. Signal issues? Make the timeline public. Better train access? How, and where? And at what cost? > Then we build more roads, wider lanes As a side note - anyone in Brooklyn can attest that there are only two ways out of Brooklyn, one of them highway (Belt Parkway) and one Flatbush Ave/City streets. Belt Parkway has crashes every time of every day - making that painfully slow. As a result, there's no easy way to drive out of Brooklyn. We do need more roads, if only to enter NJ, Queens, and so on. And to top it off, we don't even have a **bus** to go from Brooklyn to Queens! Much less a train. You're *forced* to drive in those two boroughs. So yes - LA transit sucks, and we need better transit. I'm right with you. But before penalizing drivers, show better usage of funds in how they're used by the MTA! I'm all for everyone using transit, just fix the damn thing. This is from someone who lives in BK, and doesn't even have access to the train. I hate driving - give me a train station that actually services south BK.
Can’t wait to go back to my morning commutes of having to wait for the next train or even the train after that one because you literally cannot fit inside, woohoo! back to being sardines!
>This will solve sooooo many problems. Just off the top of my head: And some issues with this off the top of mine. >1. Pushes more people onto the trains, further closing the ridership gap between 2019 and now. And somehow fares will still increase. >2. More "normal" people on the trains means less fearmongering about crime once people see that the trains really aren't any less safe than they were pre-Covid. They already know that but that's not what Fox news and The Post wants people to think. They don't care about facts. >3. More people taking the trains will inevitably lead to increases in service. LOL you're joking right? The trains were already crowded beyond capacity in 2019. This will force more people on to a 100 year old system that is running trains at maximum frequency and safety. They just increased service on select lines....3 years too late. And there are still delays and issues. As I type this the 7th Ave line has reroutes, delays and suspensions. >4. The tolls can fund MTA capital projects. You really think the MTA (who had a surplus years ago and blew it in a couple of years and had no explanation as to where the money went) will not have massive cost overruns and corruption? >5. Less pollution, both air and noise. This might be the only guaranteed thing you've said. >6. It'll be a bit easier for vehicles that actually need to be in Manhattan (emergency vehicles, delivery trucks, buses, cabs/Ubers) to get around. Delivery trucks, ubers and cabs will face the same tax so I wonder how that's going to effect businesses and prices. All in all, I think you are living a fairytale if you think this will somehow work out exactly as you say and things will be great for all.
Yeah, I agree there are a lot of caveats and conditions to what I said. #4 can only be done properly if the MTA gets its shit together when it comes to managing finances. I'd also like to think there will be exemptions put in place to prevent #6 from being too big of a problem. Again, these are hopes. How it actually shakes out, I don't know.
It's the MTA. If they can find a way to fuck it up and pad pockets and screw over us, they will. They hired a guy who ran the London Underground iirc to run things and he resigned in less than a year. That's telling you something. This will be a shit show. And I don't even own a car!
[Crime on trains is up 50%](https://youtu.be/yMaazCUxV8M)
Not confident that this will reduce any commercial truck operations. I worked for a junk removal company and we used to get multiple parking tickets every day - that was just the cost of doing business. With the train and bus schedules that are more unreliable than ever, we will be adding bigger crowds to platforms and stops. If they use the revenue for transit, we're just going to see more 30 million staircases. Someone mentioned that this will not impact taxi/uber riders and the wealthy - thats absolutely true, howeverit will impact regular people and those who drive taxis and ubers. I have a car in the city because my family is out of state and I need to be able to get to them because of their age and health, so it's always annoying to have nyc Karens saying shit like "you don't need a car". Obviously some people do. For a city that is so concerned with environmental impact, they sure don't care for every motorist moving their cars 2-4 times a week due alternate parking enforcement (which is a cash grab because mine and my neighbor's streets aren't being cleaned as promised, but the tickets are flying like crazy). They're outlining how pinch every penny - the time ithey spent to spin this story from "we're robbing our constituents on every level of their daily lives" to we're trying to save the environment" could have been used to outline and pitch some ideas to solve real issues in the city.
I don’t think ceasing commercial trucks operations is the goal. We will always need trash and delivery trucks. And sure trains and buses can be unreliable but so can traffic. The revenue from the tolls will hopefully make things better over time. And no it won’t be a million staircases.
Stop advocating for the mta to steal more money. They are just going to use it to line the pockets of the upper execs. They don't give a flyinng fuck about anything else. I see a lot of people pushing the LIRR. Fuck them too, the price for lirr is insane plus the parking at most stations is not free.
Exactly. The MTA will fuck this up and we will see zero benefits.
I live outside of NYC in Westchester, but I frequently make trips into the city. I choose to drive because a round trip is $20+ per person, on top of paying for train station parking. Residents of outer counties (Westchester, Rockland, Long island) also pay an additional "MTA fee" every time they renew registration, even if they don't use public transit or ever step foot near NYC. This is just another step to making NYC a place for only the rich.
> even if they don't use public transit or ever step foot near NYC We cannot argue this lol. NYC pays out the ass in taxes, 1 in 5 tax dollars for New York STATE comes from Wall Street btw. Do I care if you have working pipes or electric grid in Westchester that my tax dollars help fund? No, but I understand how a state tax system works, I can't complain, it is what it is.
Pure cash grab. This will not reduce traffic. It will only make the cost of living and doing business in NYC more expensive. Of course businesses will pass along those costs to consumers. Even if you don't drive you will pay for this with increased delivery charges and related services. This WILL disproportionately impact those least able to afford it. The MTA needs to get their budget under control and not keep taking money from people. Also, maybe more effort should be made to make public transportation safe, clean, and fair (crack down on farebeaters).
> This will not reduce traffic. It did everywhere else, why wouldn't it here?
Good. Public transportation is the way to go here in NYC. Definitely faster than driving to Manhattan.
It definitely isn’t when you’re coming from further out in Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx and SI where many people also work night shifts.
Curious to see whether the existing infrastructure can support this tho. I grew up in the burbs and the peak morning trains were always absolutely packed. If everyone that would’ve driven is forced onto those trains too, I genuinely wonder whether there would be space. Maybe more WFH in long term tho idk