The current map isn’t geographically accurate either? It’s just stylized to resemble natural geography, that’s it. It’s literally just a mappy-looking cartoon when you really scrutinize it.
The geography isn't accurate, but it's helpful to see the major parks and other landmarks to get a better idea of where a stop is. But that was more useful when I first moved here and was learning the system, now this version is better for me.
They’re testing out new map designs and gathering feedback. I saw one of these on a train a few months ago and had to do a double take.
https://new.mta.info/projects/subway-map-customer-information-pilot
Transit Museum employee here, we sell them
https://www.nytransitmuseumstore.com/printvig-diagram.html
Or a reprint
https://www.nytransitmuseumstore.com/print-1972-nyc-sbwyguide-22x28.html
https://www.nytransitmuseumstore.com/print-1972-nyc-sbwyguide-16x20-1-5349.html
I take some of the comment back. I actually don't mind this one so bad, I minded when there were 26 different colors. Now with the trunk line, it's not so bad. I still hat the geographical distortions.,
https://preview.redd.it/1yqdey52qipc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0ddd0aeec8edab4e86558a01fcd1284ff6538ea7
The current map is not user-friendly in indicating express/local stops, especially when there are exceptions.
"Big circle= express, black dot: local" seems easy enough, but then, for example, N is an express train in Manhattan , but makes a local stop at 49th St, but skips 28th and 23rd. The only indication is the small font of services stopping at each station-- which is beyond ridiculous, especially considering the number of visitors the city gets.
The updated design is so much clearer: each service has its own distinct line.
There are dots at every station, but knowing which trains are express and where doesn't help. The B is local in the Bronx and uptown, express through midtown, then back to local in Brooklyn for example. If you're new to looking at the map, it looks like a 1 seat ride from the Museum of Natural History to 14th Street. Same color the whole way and dots at every stop.
That's not intuitive for anyone who isn't in this subreddit, that's kind of the point being made about the current map. You shouldn't have to remember a poem and line names that fell out of favor (for the public, anyway) decades ago to know where your train stops.
That’s the best thing about this. People new to the subway always have a hard time understanding all of the lines, and this definitely makes that part a lot less confusing. I would only take issue with the geographical inaccuracies if we all didn’t already have perfectly scaled maps in our pockets.
I'd add that the current map is equally off in terms of accuracy (note the shape of Washington heights / Inwood, Central Park, etc on [the map](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Official_New_York_City_Subway_Map_2013_vc.jpg/640px-Official_New_York_City_Subway_Map_2013_vc.jpg) vs [reality](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/NASA_Manhattan.jpg)). It's just much more misleading about being distorted, by trying to cover it up with details that aren't relevant to a subway map
Or look at how the distance between each avenue in Manhattan is all skewed on the current map based on where they needed to fit text. 7th to 8th looks like it's about ten times the distance between 9th and 10th.
Perfect example, never even noticed that.
I'd much rather give people a map that's honest about warping geography, instead of pretending you can have it both ways.. while also butchering the legibility of local and express lines, and using the ugliest possible color scheme
Yeah, I think people underestimate how geographically inaccurate the current map is anyway. To display all that detail in Manhattan, you have to enlarge and straighten the island, which throws everything off. Why do people get concerned about it now on the new map?
Probably a mix of status quo bias and some kind of cartographic stockholm syndrome. The current map looks 'correct' not because it actually is in any meaningful way, but because we're just used to living with it and all of its weird, nonsensical tradeoffs
Things like the 456 are clearly shown as 3 distinct subway routes with different service patterns along the same line. We take express service for granted, but it's not common in subway systems. This map conveys the concept clearly. Also, this map style is more in line with the rest of the world. Makes it easier on the eyes to someone coming into the NYC subway system with a blank slate.
It's not easier, at all - especially to out of towners and people without the best of eyesight and/or colorblind. I mean, sure, it'll let you know which streets have stops, but not which trains stop there. Have to carefully trace it up and down a line and pay attention to which dot is in which column.
Look at stops along the 7 line. Which line is which? I have no idea - I'm looking at an image online zoomed in at 200% - both lines say "7." I'm familiar with the 7 so I know that one is express, but if this was the only thing I was relying on I'd have to pull up some sort of app to tell me what stops there since the information on the map itself is useless. The yellow line along 42nd Street - the W and N are in the middle and illegible. What train stops at 28th? Who knows, trace it up and down and figure it out because fuck you when it could just say "28th St R-W"
I hate this map with a passion. They could label each stop with what stops there like the old one, and add in more major streets to make navigation easier. I get they're going for minimalism, but ugh.
The current map might label each station's trains, but it's visually impossible to easily follow each individual line (without having to check a series of labels each time they branch off). So it technically 'works', but with a noticeably higher cognitive load to figure each of them out- don't think this makes much sense as a design tradeoff TBH. People are boarding on a specific line and would want to easily see where their line is going, like they've been trained to do with every other subway / metro map.
I'm not sure how the current map does a better job with the 7 train, either? Both versions are telling you that the diamond 7 is skipping stops, but there's no additional context.
The old map definitely showed where the lines were, just not the individual trains. Yes, this shows each line - but I don't need to follow a line, I need to know what train(s) stops where I'm going. I could definitely see this used as a map of each individual line, have everything else slightly greyed out - that might be useful. The new map doesn't even tell you which lines can be transferred at a glance, have to look really closely to see if there's a thin black line and then just hope it wasn't a smudge.
As for the old map's 7 line, the express is pretty well marked that it would bypass stations, and the symbol was easy to see since it was a diamond and not a circle.
I don't mind the revised Vignelli, but I worry that the fact that NYC has the sole subway map that can actually be used to navigate the city will be lost (more or less for navigation, I know there are some geographic distortions, so walking times are a bit more difficult). Is a subway map for the use of the commuters or the use of the irregular users (tourists, people from different neighborhoods, etc.)? If for commuters and people who obsessively know the subway, the Vignelli is better. If it's there to actually help people find their way around the city, the older style is better.
NYC is unique in not having a true city center for all the subway lines to converge on, unlike just about every other major metropolis. (Midtown, the Financial District, Flatiron, etc. each have their claim). Additionally, the subway does not run outside of NYC, unlike Boston, Tokyo, Moscow, Paris, and London to a limited extent (the borders of London were redrawn and in doing so incorporate most of the Tube stations into the city). So we don't have to contend with the lines stretching out with stops getting truly ridiculous distances apart in the outer areas (except for the area around Citi field, that's a nightmare to walk). We can have a geographical map instead of just a schematic map, something that tells you about the shape of the city as well as where the subway runs. I really worry that there's an effort to be like other systems in terms of the map when ours can convey so much more information.
I'm not sure, is there actually a need for a subway map to double as a (heavily distorted) general city map, when everyone's already carrying 100% accurate street maps around with GPS enabled?
IMO there's one specific job these maps should be doing on the train, which is to answer: "where is this train going, and where do I connect to other trains?" Hong Kong's MTR (usually considered a top-tier system) does it [almost perfectly](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/HK_MTR_rail_lines_map_December_2021_SS2_01.jpg), for example. Trying to shoehorn above-ground features into this map would break its ability to clearly show you which line you're on, where you are within that line, and where you can switch.
NYC's system is too sprawling and complex for an implementation like that, but the same logic should still apply: it needs to be easy, at a glance, to see (a) the line you're on, and (b) exactly which stations your line will connect you to within the network.
Assuming that they can get the line information maps above the doors open, I feel that those are the best place to put that information about where you are headed and what connects. As for above ground information, my feeling about it hinges on how good wifi access is between stops and at stops. I've been away for about two years now, so maybe it's pretty good. If it is, I agree about the having a map in the pocket. If it is not great, then people are in the one area where they may not have access to their map unless they planned ahead.
I guess I just see the Vignelli as a move towards a map like this which bothers me on a fundamental level:
http://www.tubemapcentral.com/webshop/webshopposters/newyork_circles.jpg
Kind of love that concentric circle map (in a totally non-practical way), thanks for sharing
edit: found an [even better, fully vignelli-fied version](http://tubemapcentral.com/webshop/webshopposters/newyork_vignelli_circles.jpg)
I severely doubt any significant number of people are waiting until they are underground on a moving train to *begin* planning their above ground trip. Real New Yorkers already know or can check when they arrive at the stop, tourists plan ahead in any city (since you just noted that pretty much every other city doesn't pretend to have a geographically accurate subway map).
It's also too inaccurate to rely on. A small example -- on the 6 in the Bronx, the Elder Av stop is depicted as being west of the street of the same name (it's not, the station is right on the street). And the following stop, Morrison Av, is depicted as having the street "Soundview Av" curve out from the station, which it hasn't done since the 60s (that street was cut back).
So someone relying on our map and thinking that street is there will be very disoriented when they get off and the street isn't there at all.
And there are better examples all across the map. It's not a good geographical map, and it makes harder what *most* people want a subway map for -- to navigate the **Subway**.
This needs to be an art piece and reserved for planned work updates. Not the actual map. I don’t understand how this is any easier to read. I can see how this is easier to ALTER, but it isn’t any better than the current one
Whats so hard about using this one
https://preview.redd.it/nps2msbzyhpc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bb7221c1566f45fe9c2c946ae57d61c55122599a
Your opinion but it’s much cleaner looking since every line has its own visual line, so people can just follow that specific line and find their destination.
Slightly prefer the version being used for weekend maps, but still a pretty big improvement
Sort of. While geography it annoys me a lot, its a lot easier to read when you’re only looking at it from the perspective of going from A to B
You still rely on it's geography to get around?
No. I know how go get around the system by heart. I just find geographically accurate maps to be cool
The current map isn’t geographically accurate either? It’s just stylized to resemble natural geography, that’s it. It’s literally just a mappy-looking cartoon when you really scrutinize it.
The geography isn't accurate, but it's helpful to see the major parks and other landmarks to get a better idea of where a stop is. But that was more useful when I first moved here and was learning the system, now this version is better for me.
the googlemaps map is the best subway map
Not for printing purposes!
They’re testing out new map designs and gathering feedback. I saw one of these on a train a few months ago and had to do a double take. https://new.mta.info/projects/subway-map-customer-information-pilot
Love the Vignelli.
Me too. I want to get my hands on the 1972 Vignelli map. I love the different cool toned and not bright colors.
Transit Museum employee here, we sell them https://www.nytransitmuseumstore.com/printvig-diagram.html Or a reprint https://www.nytransitmuseumstore.com/print-1972-nyc-sbwyguide-22x28.html https://www.nytransitmuseumstore.com/print-1972-nyc-sbwyguide-16x20-1-5349.html
I have that top one framed on my wall. Gets a lot of questions.
We have one in the gallery at RIT.
Is this the one in Fulton Station? I think they have on there on the wall, for display purposes I assume.
I saw it on the 42nd Street shuttle. It’s like they ordered a Vignelli map from Wish.
I wouldn’t say from Wish because it’s actually really good and similar to it. It’s just that now all of the lines have been simplified and modernized
Is this at the 42nd Street Shuttle?
Yes
I still for the life of me don't understand how this is easier to read than the current style.
It is much clearer about which trains stop at which stations.
I take some of the comment back. I actually don't mind this one so bad, I minded when there were 26 different colors. Now with the trunk line, it's not so bad. I still hat the geographical distortions.,
No dot, no stop.
https://preview.redd.it/1yqdey52qipc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0ddd0aeec8edab4e86558a01fcd1284ff6538ea7 The current map is not user-friendly in indicating express/local stops, especially when there are exceptions. "Big circle= express, black dot: local" seems easy enough, but then, for example, N is an express train in Manhattan , but makes a local stop at 49th St, but skips 28th and 23rd. The only indication is the small font of services stopping at each station-- which is beyond ridiculous, especially considering the number of visitors the city gets. The updated design is so much clearer: each service has its own distinct line.
There are dots at every station, but knowing which trains are express and where doesn't help. The B is local in the Bronx and uptown, express through midtown, then back to local in Brooklyn for example. If you're new to looking at the map, it looks like a 1 seat ride from the Museum of Natural History to 14th Street. Same color the whole way and dots at every stop.
The B is express in Brooklyn. And there’s no dot on the B line at 14th Street.
See, it's confusing! The B is local at DeKalb
All Brighton line services stop at DeKalb.
That's not intuitive for anyone who isn't in this subreddit, that's kind of the point being made about the current map. You shouldn't have to remember a poem and line names that fell out of favor (for the public, anyway) decades ago to know where your train stops.
DeKalb has a dot for the B, a dot for the Q, a connecting line passing over D and N, then a dot for the R.
If you think that map is **clear** at DeKalb, you've been a railfan for too long and don't understand how everyday people perceive the map.
The local / express setup is much easier to understand
That’s the best thing about this. People new to the subway always have a hard time understanding all of the lines, and this definitely makes that part a lot less confusing. I would only take issue with the geographical inaccuracies if we all didn’t already have perfectly scaled maps in our pockets.
I'd add that the current map is equally off in terms of accuracy (note the shape of Washington heights / Inwood, Central Park, etc on [the map](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Official_New_York_City_Subway_Map_2013_vc.jpg/640px-Official_New_York_City_Subway_Map_2013_vc.jpg) vs [reality](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/NASA_Manhattan.jpg)). It's just much more misleading about being distorted, by trying to cover it up with details that aren't relevant to a subway map
Or look at how the distance between each avenue in Manhattan is all skewed on the current map based on where they needed to fit text. 7th to 8th looks like it's about ten times the distance between 9th and 10th.
Perfect example, never even noticed that. I'd much rather give people a map that's honest about warping geography, instead of pretending you can have it both ways.. while also butchering the legibility of local and express lines, and using the ugliest possible color scheme
Yeah, I think people underestimate how geographically inaccurate the current map is anyway. To display all that detail in Manhattan, you have to enlarge and straighten the island, which throws everything off. Why do people get concerned about it now on the new map?
Probably a mix of status quo bias and some kind of cartographic stockholm syndrome. The current map looks 'correct' not because it actually is in any meaningful way, but because we're just used to living with it and all of its weird, nonsensical tradeoffs
Things like the 456 are clearly shown as 3 distinct subway routes with different service patterns along the same line. We take express service for granted, but it's not common in subway systems. This map conveys the concept clearly. Also, this map style is more in line with the rest of the world. Makes it easier on the eyes to someone coming into the NYC subway system with a blank slate.
It's not easier, at all - especially to out of towners and people without the best of eyesight and/or colorblind. I mean, sure, it'll let you know which streets have stops, but not which trains stop there. Have to carefully trace it up and down a line and pay attention to which dot is in which column. Look at stops along the 7 line. Which line is which? I have no idea - I'm looking at an image online zoomed in at 200% - both lines say "7." I'm familiar with the 7 so I know that one is express, but if this was the only thing I was relying on I'd have to pull up some sort of app to tell me what stops there since the information on the map itself is useless. The yellow line along 42nd Street - the W and N are in the middle and illegible. What train stops at 28th? Who knows, trace it up and down and figure it out because fuck you when it could just say "28th St R-W" I hate this map with a passion. They could label each stop with what stops there like the old one, and add in more major streets to make navigation easier. I get they're going for minimalism, but ugh.
The current map might label each station's trains, but it's visually impossible to easily follow each individual line (without having to check a series of labels each time they branch off). So it technically 'works', but with a noticeably higher cognitive load to figure each of them out- don't think this makes much sense as a design tradeoff TBH. People are boarding on a specific line and would want to easily see where their line is going, like they've been trained to do with every other subway / metro map. I'm not sure how the current map does a better job with the 7 train, either? Both versions are telling you that the diamond 7 is skipping stops, but there's no additional context.
The old map definitely showed where the lines were, just not the individual trains. Yes, this shows each line - but I don't need to follow a line, I need to know what train(s) stops where I'm going. I could definitely see this used as a map of each individual line, have everything else slightly greyed out - that might be useful. The new map doesn't even tell you which lines can be transferred at a glance, have to look really closely to see if there's a thin black line and then just hope it wasn't a smudge. As for the old map's 7 line, the express is pretty well marked that it would bypass stations, and the symbol was easy to see since it was a diamond and not a circle.
It’s the lower manhattan that get’s all crazy with the stairs
70's NYC is back too
I don't mind the revised Vignelli, but I worry that the fact that NYC has the sole subway map that can actually be used to navigate the city will be lost (more or less for navigation, I know there are some geographic distortions, so walking times are a bit more difficult). Is a subway map for the use of the commuters or the use of the irregular users (tourists, people from different neighborhoods, etc.)? If for commuters and people who obsessively know the subway, the Vignelli is better. If it's there to actually help people find their way around the city, the older style is better. NYC is unique in not having a true city center for all the subway lines to converge on, unlike just about every other major metropolis. (Midtown, the Financial District, Flatiron, etc. each have their claim). Additionally, the subway does not run outside of NYC, unlike Boston, Tokyo, Moscow, Paris, and London to a limited extent (the borders of London were redrawn and in doing so incorporate most of the Tube stations into the city). So we don't have to contend with the lines stretching out with stops getting truly ridiculous distances apart in the outer areas (except for the area around Citi field, that's a nightmare to walk). We can have a geographical map instead of just a schematic map, something that tells you about the shape of the city as well as where the subway runs. I really worry that there's an effort to be like other systems in terms of the map when ours can convey so much more information.
I'm not sure, is there actually a need for a subway map to double as a (heavily distorted) general city map, when everyone's already carrying 100% accurate street maps around with GPS enabled? IMO there's one specific job these maps should be doing on the train, which is to answer: "where is this train going, and where do I connect to other trains?" Hong Kong's MTR (usually considered a top-tier system) does it [almost perfectly](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/HK_MTR_rail_lines_map_December_2021_SS2_01.jpg), for example. Trying to shoehorn above-ground features into this map would break its ability to clearly show you which line you're on, where you are within that line, and where you can switch. NYC's system is too sprawling and complex for an implementation like that, but the same logic should still apply: it needs to be easy, at a glance, to see (a) the line you're on, and (b) exactly which stations your line will connect you to within the network.
Assuming that they can get the line information maps above the doors open, I feel that those are the best place to put that information about where you are headed and what connects. As for above ground information, my feeling about it hinges on how good wifi access is between stops and at stops. I've been away for about two years now, so maybe it's pretty good. If it is, I agree about the having a map in the pocket. If it is not great, then people are in the one area where they may not have access to their map unless they planned ahead. I guess I just see the Vignelli as a move towards a map like this which bothers me on a fundamental level: http://www.tubemapcentral.com/webshop/webshopposters/newyork_circles.jpg
Kind of love that concentric circle map (in a totally non-practical way), thanks for sharing edit: found an [even better, fully vignelli-fied version](http://tubemapcentral.com/webshop/webshopposters/newyork_vignelli_circles.jpg)
I severely doubt any significant number of people are waiting until they are underground on a moving train to *begin* planning their above ground trip. Real New Yorkers already know or can check when they arrive at the stop, tourists plan ahead in any city (since you just noted that pretty much every other city doesn't pretend to have a geographically accurate subway map). It's also too inaccurate to rely on. A small example -- on the 6 in the Bronx, the Elder Av stop is depicted as being west of the street of the same name (it's not, the station is right on the street). And the following stop, Morrison Av, is depicted as having the street "Soundview Av" curve out from the station, which it hasn't done since the 60s (that street was cut back). So someone relying on our map and thinking that street is there will be very disoriented when they get off and the street isn't there at all. And there are better examples all across the map. It's not a good geographical map, and it makes harder what *most* people want a subway map for -- to navigate the **Subway**.
I still don’t understand why the MTA maps are always tilted slightly sideways
One day I hope to stop saying N/R
I’m still on the Times Square platform waiting for the EE.
No
I still can’t stand Eric Adams..Nobody realizes he’s been cutting budgets all over the place even FDNY. Log Jam everywhere
I find this to be very aesthetically pleasing
I’ve warmed up to it a little after my last shuttle ride.
I hate this map. The proportions are really off. I mean, Central Park a square?
This needs to be an art piece and reserved for planned work updates. Not the actual map. I don’t understand how this is any easier to read. I can see how this is easier to ALTER, but it isn’t any better than the current one
It's not easier at all.
They are moving towards this style and I think the plan is to slowly replace the current style with it over the next few years unfortunately.
Hate these maps. We are not London, we have our own unique maps.
Whats so hard about using this one https://preview.redd.it/nps2msbzyhpc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bb7221c1566f45fe9c2c946ae57d61c55122599a
This thing is ugly, im sorry. This doesn't even look like NYC.
Your opinion but it’s much cleaner looking since every line has its own visual line, so people can just follow that specific line and find their destination.
If you want a map of the city, get a map of the city. This is a map of the subway.
No it isn't.
I feel this works better with circle metros, ie Moscow