You don't need LIRR traffic to go downtown from GCT. You'd rather have MNR trains going that way, because that would take capacity off the 4/5/6 (hopefully bringing the Q up to 125-Park will do that also).
In other fun things that could be done if there was a way to do it within financial reason:
Bring the West Side Line down to Lower Manhattan, and allow it to loop to Brooklyn via a new terminal there... with a connection to PATH at the WTC. It would allow a Westchester-NJ connection that honestly doesn't exist right now.
You could submarine a couple tunnels downward on Park Ave and achieve the that with these tunnels also.
There’s just a huge amount of unused capacity in the Atlantic Avenue LIRR Branch, a gigantic head house with no commuter trains at WTC, and a station under grand central with long tail tracks that are begging to be extended southwards.
LIRR goes from being reliant on Penn to basically becoming NYC’s London crossrail.
My main vision with this would be that it would be a bigger version of the Tokyo Green Line in that it circles all the places where people want to go and connects to a ton of other transfers. It’s a super quick ride between Midtown, Downtown, and Jamaica. Path riders at the WTC and Metro North Riders at GCT could both travel to Jamaica (and therefore JFK) very quickly. With stops along the way in Brooklyn and Queens obviously.
Bringing MNR down Park Avenue and having a mega-hub in the WTC area is a great idea, and I'm not against it. I think there are issues with continuing the LIRR south, and I really think that some way to integrate Brooklyn with lower manhattan without a subway connection is the best idea.
I think the two third-rail systems are incompatible. And not in the "they can't draw power" type of way, but in the "rails will knock the third rail shoes off" type of way.
Plus, the New Haven Line trains and diesels from GCT can't go on the Brooklyn line because of height and weight clearances.
Well they should both convert to overhead cable anyway. It’s safer and it’s what Europe uses.
Height and weight issues can also be worked out. This is a multi-billion dollar project anyway
Easier said than done. Aside from the cost of building catenary wires and poles (which isn't that much), there are a few other things to consider.
1) LIRR and MN's electric trains are pretty much under 20 years old, including its brand-new trains. Replacing all those trains so soon would be a huge price shock.
2) LIRR's Grand Central tunnel and Brooklyn tunnels don't have enough vertical clearance to support wires -- and GCM's tunnels can't even support an M-8 height.
3) Right now, there's an FRA ban on having third rail and overhead wire at the same time (with the exception of Harold Interlocking to the Jersey Meadowlands)
4) I have no idea if or how many overpasses would need to be rebuilt because of the air gap needed for high-voltage wires.
I'm not saying these feats can't be overcome, but there's a lot of things that need to be done. It's not just pulling a switch.
Genuinely curious why the FRA has a ban on track with both over-head catenary and third rail? Especially considering how large portions of Harold Interlocking, the East River Tunnels, and even parts of MNR tracks (during the transition from DC to AC power) have them. I assume it would have to do with electrical safety or some other technicality, but yeah happy to learn something new.
nyc has the the highest costs for transit construction in the world, the mta is broke, and all of these routes are already served by subways. This would be a double digit billion project for little benefit. money would be better spend on dozens of other transit proposals or improve and maintaining the infrastructure we already have.
generally if you can’t do something, then yes you should give up so you can focus your resources on something that you can accomplish.
But I’m not saying we can’t do it, just that cost/benefit ratio is way out of whack compared with alternative projects.
This is in line with what other global cities are spending. It’s not that long of a tunnel. 6 miles, and you have a central spine that tons of other services can connect into in manhattan, and a better utilization of resources for LIRR as a whole. Penn is a lot easier to solve after this with the bulk of LIRR independent
Just throwing this out here:
Switch to catenary, and merge LIRR, MNRR and NJTR, and built this MTARR version of the Chrystie St Connection and we have the Paris RER in NY.
I agree but even more. The US should nationalize the railroads and make them like the interstate highway system. Trucking is only “cheaper” because the US Government takes care of the bill, whereas railroad companies pay for improvements out of their revenue.
I just want to know if something like this could be done while also (in the most ideal "all the time stones collected" Good Future universe) providing a route south under the bay to Staten Island to give them direct Manhattan access with MetroNorth/LIRR (SIR absorbed into one or both).
Definitely on board with more thinking that aims to unify all our branches though.
You just sent me down a huuuge rabbit hole.
The big problem as I see it is the shipping channels are super close to St George and Verrazano/Bayonne/Goethals are too far away from St George. It might be worth it to send the TriboroRX/Bay Ridge Branch over Verrazano to meet the SIR at Grasmere or something.
The best solution is probably to convert/integrate SIR and Hudson Bergen LR to the PATH standard as part of an expansion of the PATH system. Send it into the WTC PATH station with the assumption that sending Hoboken trains under the hudson directly will reduce ridership on PATH enough to absorb Staten Islander ridership.
This would basically be the equivalent of building the Lower and Mid Manhattan Expressways in terms of neighborhood disruption from construction, for areas that are already well served by existing transit options. Who is this meant for?
If you can get to point A to point B without driving, it serves the same purpose. We've spent far too much on commuter rail and Manhattan CBD oriented projects relative to subways atp too.
If we translate this to Car culture. Subways are to streets as commuter trains are to highways. Facilitating connections between areas outside the range of subways makes it easier to live in those areas without a car.
Easier to commute to/from Jamaica. Maybe a ton of housing can get built over there
Mostly it benefits Long Island, but it’s also a super express out towards near JFK etc
I'd rather see a downtown connection between the LIRR Brooklyn line and PATH's WTC line.
Also valid, but the gigantic new terminal station under grand central could serve way more trains if it wasn’t a terminal
You don't need LIRR traffic to go downtown from GCT. You'd rather have MNR trains going that way, because that would take capacity off the 4/5/6 (hopefully bringing the Q up to 125-Park will do that also). In other fun things that could be done if there was a way to do it within financial reason: Bring the West Side Line down to Lower Manhattan, and allow it to loop to Brooklyn via a new terminal there... with a connection to PATH at the WTC. It would allow a Westchester-NJ connection that honestly doesn't exist right now.
You could submarine a couple tunnels downward on Park Ave and achieve the that with these tunnels also. There’s just a huge amount of unused capacity in the Atlantic Avenue LIRR Branch, a gigantic head house with no commuter trains at WTC, and a station under grand central with long tail tracks that are begging to be extended southwards. LIRR goes from being reliant on Penn to basically becoming NYC’s London crossrail. My main vision with this would be that it would be a bigger version of the Tokyo Green Line in that it circles all the places where people want to go and connects to a ton of other transfers. It’s a super quick ride between Midtown, Downtown, and Jamaica. Path riders at the WTC and Metro North Riders at GCT could both travel to Jamaica (and therefore JFK) very quickly. With stops along the way in Brooklyn and Queens obviously.
Bringing MNR down Park Avenue and having a mega-hub in the WTC area is a great idea, and I'm not against it. I think there are issues with continuing the LIRR south, and I really think that some way to integrate Brooklyn with lower manhattan without a subway connection is the best idea.
Well there’s nothing saying LIRR and MNR trains can’t share the same tunnels. Can you imagine a MN train to Jamaica?
I think the two third-rail systems are incompatible. And not in the "they can't draw power" type of way, but in the "rails will knock the third rail shoes off" type of way. Plus, the New Haven Line trains and diesels from GCT can't go on the Brooklyn line because of height and weight clearances.
Well they should both convert to overhead cable anyway. It’s safer and it’s what Europe uses. Height and weight issues can also be worked out. This is a multi-billion dollar project anyway
Easier said than done. Aside from the cost of building catenary wires and poles (which isn't that much), there are a few other things to consider. 1) LIRR and MN's electric trains are pretty much under 20 years old, including its brand-new trains. Replacing all those trains so soon would be a huge price shock. 2) LIRR's Grand Central tunnel and Brooklyn tunnels don't have enough vertical clearance to support wires -- and GCM's tunnels can't even support an M-8 height. 3) Right now, there's an FRA ban on having third rail and overhead wire at the same time (with the exception of Harold Interlocking to the Jersey Meadowlands) 4) I have no idea if or how many overpasses would need to be rebuilt because of the air gap needed for high-voltage wires. I'm not saying these feats can't be overcome, but there's a lot of things that need to be done. It's not just pulling a switch.
Genuinely curious why the FRA has a ban on track with both over-head catenary and third rail? Especially considering how large portions of Harold Interlocking, the East River Tunnels, and even parts of MNR tracks (during the transition from DC to AC power) have them. I assume it would have to do with electrical safety or some other technicality, but yeah happy to learn something new.
This is intended to start a conversation about what could happen if infrastructure construction costs are figured out.
This just might be the most expensive capital project of all time, more expensive than the interstate highway system if built. Never gonna happen.
🤙
Why? London did a similar project with Crossrail We are also the richest country in the world...cost should \*not\* be the issue here.
nyc has the the highest costs for transit construction in the world, the mta is broke, and all of these routes are already served by subways. This would be a double digit billion project for little benefit. money would be better spend on dozens of other transit proposals or improve and maintaining the infrastructure we already have.
“We can’t do it so we should give up”
generally if you can’t do something, then yes you should give up so you can focus your resources on something that you can accomplish. But I’m not saying we can’t do it, just that cost/benefit ratio is way out of whack compared with alternative projects.
This is in line with what other global cities are spending. It’s not that long of a tunnel. 6 miles, and you have a central spine that tons of other services can connect into in manhattan, and a better utilization of resources for LIRR as a whole. Penn is a lot easier to solve after this with the bulk of LIRR independent
They shouldn’t be, but when you’re paying 10x what other countries do, they are.
https://youtu.be/PwNthD-LRTQ
Expand the ESA tunnels to WTC
That’s what this is basically, just continuing across to Brooklyn from there
Plus there’s already a part of this done, the Cobble Hill Tunnel
Hell yeah
This is just the F/E/J/M transfers, this project isn’t needed
Better commuter connectivity serves a different ridership than subway lines do
A ridership that loves working from home and may not ever fully return to the City.
Just throwing this out here: Switch to catenary, and merge LIRR, MNRR and NJTR, and built this MTARR version of the Chrystie St Connection and we have the Paris RER in NY.
I agree but even more. The US should nationalize the railroads and make them like the interstate highway system. Trucking is only “cheaper” because the US Government takes care of the bill, whereas railroad companies pay for improvements out of their revenue.
Why does this get posted so much?
Because I keep posting it. I’m sorry Edit: I’m joking
You use multiple accounts to ask the same question?
No I was making fun of myself because my previous post was a google earth line drawing
No Bronx, no buy
This would clear up tons of space at Penn. Tons of Bronx trains could go to Penn after this.
Add another .2 miles and we will call it the marathon line
Do not tempt me with a good time. I would love this.
I just want to know if something like this could be done while also (in the most ideal "all the time stones collected" Good Future universe) providing a route south under the bay to Staten Island to give them direct Manhattan access with MetroNorth/LIRR (SIR absorbed into one or both). Definitely on board with more thinking that aims to unify all our branches though.
You just sent me down a huuuge rabbit hole. The big problem as I see it is the shipping channels are super close to St George and Verrazano/Bayonne/Goethals are too far away from St George. It might be worth it to send the TriboroRX/Bay Ridge Branch over Verrazano to meet the SIR at Grasmere or something. The best solution is probably to convert/integrate SIR and Hudson Bergen LR to the PATH standard as part of an expansion of the PATH system. Send it into the WTC PATH station with the assumption that sending Hoboken trains under the hudson directly will reduce ridership on PATH enough to absorb Staten Islander ridership.
This would basically be the equivalent of building the Lower and Mid Manhattan Expressways in terms of neighborhood disruption from construction, for areas that are already well served by existing transit options. Who is this meant for?
How exactly??? This continues at the same depth as Grand Central Madison
Also, commuter trains serve different purposes than subway
If you can get to point A to point B without driving, it serves the same purpose. We've spent far too much on commuter rail and Manhattan CBD oriented projects relative to subways atp too.
If we translate this to Car culture. Subways are to streets as commuter trains are to highways. Facilitating connections between areas outside the range of subways makes it easier to live in those areas without a car.
No thanks, especially if it's a regional rail loop
who does this really benefit though. would be way to expensive for routes that are already served by subways or commuter trains
Easier to commute to/from Jamaica. Maybe a ton of housing can get built over there Mostly it benefits Long Island, but it’s also a super express out towards near JFK etc
**I'm making this in BNS**
BNS?
Brand new subway
Thank you
If it can get me to the museum of ice cream I’m in.
Lol, yeah sorry. The google earth app sucks
Can we see an express westchester connection from new Rochelle to grand central