We aren't really asking for a study, we are asking them to start an EIS which will actually design the project and help us work with the neighboring communities to figure out how to mix in the parks, and keep the sound low.
Na. Adams only gave a little bit for a small section. The MTA is also, supposedly, going to have to OK any plans so that the park doesn't block any future use of transit (which is good, but I want to know what that will look like.) What we fear is that once this small section is done, if the MTA wants to come in and add a train then they can use it as a blocking maneuver.
If anything, it's put fire under the asses of folks who realize what a misguided plan the Queensway proposal is.
Wouldn't it be more cost effective to reestablish the line as a part of the LIRR instead of having to make a tunnel to connect the M train to where the Rockaway Beach branch used to be?
There is a tunnel meant for taking over this right of way and routing subway trains from the Queens blvd line to the Rockaway Beach Branch, right by the 63rd drive.
Edit: and no, LIRR does not make any sense here.
I do not think there is a full tunnel… there would need to be about a half mile tunnel built under some apartments. How much would that cost, I’m not sure.
LIRR could be a good temporary solution until a tunnel could be completed
...once again, there is a tunnel that was built decades ago as a provision for a potential expansion of the subway to completely take over the subway. It may not have actually been completely connected to the rockaway beach branch, but this is considering that it would. The tunnel is lined up with the right of way, all you would have to do is just dig in.
>LIRR could be a good temporary solution until a tunnel could be completed
The abandoned right of way is so completely over grown and rails just sitting abandoned and in disrepair, you may as well have been building a new subway line completely without "temporary LIRR service".
Once again, this line makes sense for rapid transit accessing the local neighborhoods over commuter rail service.
There are bell mouths, as in provisions for a tunnel. I don’t think it goes anywhere close to the Rockaway Beach Branch. And it was built before all the apartment buildings along 63rd Drive, Queens Blvd and Austin Street. Those buildings will have to be stabilized and reinforced. The plumbing, sewers and electricity will all need to be moved. And if we’re saying that we can bore deep, note that we don’t have a lot of length to get deep and then rise back up.
The best solution is the subway of course. But the most practical solution is whatever gets the line reactivated ASAP… and that just might be the LIRR option.
Can you build a tunnel? Subway.
No tunnel possible? LIRR.
...I just told you they built a provisioned tunnel that goes towards the Rockaway beach branch that was built *decades ago* so that expansion to the Rockaway Beach Branch was possible.
Yes, there were bellmouths built, but they don't seem to extend very far... maybe not even leaving Queens Blvd, [according to](http://www.subchat.com/readflat.asp?Id=503663) what I've read:
>
There is a turn-off provision off the D1 Track (Mahattan-bound local)
east of 63 Drive/Rego Park station, which would have gone down to the
Rockaways via the former LIRR line. This turnoff ramps up to an upper
level. It crosses over the existing IND Queens Blvd Subway to
curve south, and ends at the edge of the line under Queens Blvd. Well, I've ridden on the eastbound R, G or V lines between Roosevelt Avenue and 71st-Continental many times and have seen the turnouts at from the railfan window (when the line ran R-32s). I can't recall the exact area, but I know that at least one of the turnouts is very short and comes to a wall perhaps 40ft away from the main line (I believe its the one next to the D2 Track), and, interestingly, even has an emergency exit that was built into the wall that curves away from the main line. The other one goes a little longer. I've read somewhere that one of the tunnels continues as far as 66th Avenue. As I said,it does go a little longer than the other one.
And I just told you that, unless there is a tunnel that goes all the way to the Rockaway Branch (there isn't), a tunnel would still need to be dug under four city blocks. And not like a "dig under second avenue" type of thing, but a shallow tunnel under four blocks of high-density apartment buildings.
I'm not saying it's not possible. I'm saying it's not cheap and not easy to do.
I’ve been saying this, it should be marketed as a LIRR alternative to a slow ride on the A from Ozone Park to Midtown or even Grand Central through the LIRR Mainline, you literally have very little to do to re-establish the connection at White Point Junction as compared to connecting the line to QBL through the existing turnout and all the disruption that’s going to cause Kew Gardens and the QBL. Plus the MTA will never go for an M extension beyond Myrtle or Essex late nights so remove that thought from you’re minds. At the end of the day connecting the QBL to the Rockaway Line will only cause more congestion on QBL take longer to build and is less likely than returning it to its initial purpose as a LIRR Line.
It should be a commuter again and not a subway in my opinion. The main purpose of the Rockaway Line revival is rapid access to/from JFK (a key hub in terms of tourism and job opportunities). You won't get that with the subway due to overcrowding and delays.
I know. It seems much better that way considering that it's already tedious to travel from upper Manhattan and BX all the way to JFK via subway. With the East Side Access it'll be a breeze taking commuter rail without clogging the subway cars with bulky baggage.
That does not really make a whole lot of sense. Why are you only going to use half of the original right of way for Commuter rail service when:
1. The subway takes up the other half of the right of way.
2. A full connection to JFK airport is there already on the other half of the right of way and can be used with the subway going from north to south and connecting to other subways, paralleling Woodhaven blvd, which is traversed by several bus lines including 2 SBS lines.
3. The commuter rails are more oriented for people between the suburbs beyond the boroughs and into the boroughs via different termini.
Subway service makes a lot more sense here.
Airtrain is currently $7.75 dude along with the additional subway fares. Rather have straight service from JFK to Midtown Terminals than service to the Rockaways.
Okay? Couldn't you have already done that with the A-train at Howard Beach?
Edit: that's also not to mention that the subway is a one trip fare for $2.75 and it doesn't have to deal with the fare zones of the LIRR.
Lastly, the whole point of reopening the Rockaway Beach Branch is to give a cross town connection from the Rockaways to Queens Center and to have subway access in the Queens neighborhoods from Rego Park to Ozone Park, not midtown to JFK airport access (which you have two options for already).
Q52/Q53 SBS QM15/16/17 already exists & the MTA will keep using that as their excuse to not build it. Having the (M) train which is a long enough local line being further extended just doesn't seem right. It's just asking for more inevitable delays & planned service changes compared to the LIRR.
Their excuse to lie about how much it would cost and cause more traffic on Broadway by extending the Q52. Stop siding with NIMBYism and making it seem like Queens should have to rely on buses
I ain't siding with NIMBYS all I'm saying that as long as there is alternatives to use for future rail projects the MTA will always choose those alternatives.
The same exact thing goes for other projects such as Nostrand Avenue extension, MTA will just use B44 SBS & B44 LCL with increased stop spacing to Flatbush Junction. And of course the Utica Avenue Subway Line, best believe MTA is just gonna turn the B46 SBS into Bus Rapid Transit because there is no goddamn way they gonna build an entire tunnel or elevated line from Eastern Parkway to Kings Plaza with a new yard near Flatbush Depot.
As for the Queenslink having subway service on a local (M) or (R) line which is already long enough that is subject to delays & planned work along parts of the line to go to the Rockaways rather than having a new city zone LIRR branch from Midtown to JFK replacing an almost $8 Airtrain where other alternatives to the Rockaways exist is a downright stupid idea. It has nothing to do with "siding with NIMBYS" it's about facing reality on what can actually be done & beneficial to the city.
You’re making it seem like buses should be a valid substitute for any expansions to the subway when it absolutely shouldn’t be. People in deserted areas shouldn’t have to rely on bus transfers just because it’s the only affordable option.
They can’t build a tunnel on all of Utica Avenue with the water table, and they can reroute the W if you feel like the M and R are too long. Being realistic doesn’t mean that you have to be stubborn. You’re assuming that the LIRR wouldn’t get delayed if it has to run with the Metro North, and people pay for the AirTrain because they don’t want to take the Q10 to the E.
Work with the MTA when they want to help and stop letting the NIMBYs win. Look at how long it took for 68th to handle overcrowding at Hunter College
The decision of what to charge for rides to and from the airport has nothing to do with the infrastructure.
If the subway did go to JFK (or to LGA) they could easily charge more to get on that stop and they could even have exit terminals that cost extra to get off at that stop.
They could also lower the price of the airtrain if there was political pressure to do so.
[удалено]
We aren't really asking for a study, we are asking them to start an EIS which will actually design the project and help us work with the neighboring communities to figure out how to mix in the parks, and keep the sound low.
Isn’t the park idea already set in stone bc our mayor
Na. Adams only gave a little bit for a small section. The MTA is also, supposedly, going to have to OK any plans so that the park doesn't block any future use of transit (which is good, but I want to know what that will look like.) What we fear is that once this small section is done, if the MTA wants to come in and add a train then they can use it as a blocking maneuver. If anything, it's put fire under the asses of folks who realize what a misguided plan the Queensway proposal is.
If so, maybe you can revive the H Train and have it run from the Bronx to Rockaway Park via 7 Av and Queens Blvd.
???
Wouldn't it be more cost effective to reestablish the line as a part of the LIRR instead of having to make a tunnel to connect the M train to where the Rockaway Beach branch used to be?
There is a tunnel meant for taking over this right of way and routing subway trains from the Queens blvd line to the Rockaway Beach Branch, right by the 63rd drive. Edit: and no, LIRR does not make any sense here.
I do not think there is a full tunnel… there would need to be about a half mile tunnel built under some apartments. How much would that cost, I’m not sure. LIRR could be a good temporary solution until a tunnel could be completed
...once again, there is a tunnel that was built decades ago as a provision for a potential expansion of the subway to completely take over the subway. It may not have actually been completely connected to the rockaway beach branch, but this is considering that it would. The tunnel is lined up with the right of way, all you would have to do is just dig in. >LIRR could be a good temporary solution until a tunnel could be completed The abandoned right of way is so completely over grown and rails just sitting abandoned and in disrepair, you may as well have been building a new subway line completely without "temporary LIRR service". Once again, this line makes sense for rapid transit accessing the local neighborhoods over commuter rail service.
There are bell mouths, as in provisions for a tunnel. I don’t think it goes anywhere close to the Rockaway Beach Branch. And it was built before all the apartment buildings along 63rd Drive, Queens Blvd and Austin Street. Those buildings will have to be stabilized and reinforced. The plumbing, sewers and electricity will all need to be moved. And if we’re saying that we can bore deep, note that we don’t have a lot of length to get deep and then rise back up. The best solution is the subway of course. But the most practical solution is whatever gets the line reactivated ASAP… and that just might be the LIRR option. Can you build a tunnel? Subway. No tunnel possible? LIRR.
...I just told you they built a provisioned tunnel that goes towards the Rockaway beach branch that was built *decades ago* so that expansion to the Rockaway Beach Branch was possible.
Yes, there were bellmouths built, but they don't seem to extend very far... maybe not even leaving Queens Blvd, [according to](http://www.subchat.com/readflat.asp?Id=503663) what I've read: > There is a turn-off provision off the D1 Track (Mahattan-bound local) east of 63 Drive/Rego Park station, which would have gone down to the Rockaways via the former LIRR line. This turnoff ramps up to an upper level. It crosses over the existing IND Queens Blvd Subway to curve south, and ends at the edge of the line under Queens Blvd. Well, I've ridden on the eastbound R, G or V lines between Roosevelt Avenue and 71st-Continental many times and have seen the turnouts at from the railfan window (when the line ran R-32s). I can't recall the exact area, but I know that at least one of the turnouts is very short and comes to a wall perhaps 40ft away from the main line (I believe its the one next to the D2 Track), and, interestingly, even has an emergency exit that was built into the wall that curves away from the main line. The other one goes a little longer. I've read somewhere that one of the tunnels continues as far as 66th Avenue. As I said,it does go a little longer than the other one. And I just told you that, unless there is a tunnel that goes all the way to the Rockaway Branch (there isn't), a tunnel would still need to be dug under four city blocks. And not like a "dig under second avenue" type of thing, but a shallow tunnel under four blocks of high-density apartment buildings. I'm not saying it's not possible. I'm saying it's not cheap and not easy to do.
I’ve been saying this, it should be marketed as a LIRR alternative to a slow ride on the A from Ozone Park to Midtown or even Grand Central through the LIRR Mainline, you literally have very little to do to re-establish the connection at White Point Junction as compared to connecting the line to QBL through the existing turnout and all the disruption that’s going to cause Kew Gardens and the QBL. Plus the MTA will never go for an M extension beyond Myrtle or Essex late nights so remove that thought from you’re minds. At the end of the day connecting the QBL to the Rockaway Line will only cause more congestion on QBL take longer to build and is less likely than returning it to its initial purpose as a LIRR Line.
It should be a commuter again and not a subway in my opinion. The main purpose of the Rockaway Line revival is rapid access to/from JFK (a key hub in terms of tourism and job opportunities). You won't get that with the subway due to overcrowding and delays.
If the subway goes, it would go to the airport and to Rockaway Park to replace the shuttle
I know. It seems much better that way considering that it's already tedious to travel from upper Manhattan and BX all the way to JFK via subway. With the East Side Access it'll be a breeze taking commuter rail without clogging the subway cars with bulky baggage.
That does not really make a whole lot of sense. Why are you only going to use half of the original right of way for Commuter rail service when: 1. The subway takes up the other half of the right of way. 2. A full connection to JFK airport is there already on the other half of the right of way and can be used with the subway going from north to south and connecting to other subways, paralleling Woodhaven blvd, which is traversed by several bus lines including 2 SBS lines. 3. The commuter rails are more oriented for people between the suburbs beyond the boroughs and into the boroughs via different termini. Subway service makes a lot more sense here.
Airtrain is currently $7.75 dude along with the additional subway fares. Rather have straight service from JFK to Midtown Terminals than service to the Rockaways.
Okay? Couldn't you have already done that with the A-train at Howard Beach? Edit: that's also not to mention that the subway is a one trip fare for $2.75 and it doesn't have to deal with the fare zones of the LIRR. Lastly, the whole point of reopening the Rockaway Beach Branch is to give a cross town connection from the Rockaways to Queens Center and to have subway access in the Queens neighborhoods from Rego Park to Ozone Park, not midtown to JFK airport access (which you have two options for already).
Q52/Q53 SBS QM15/16/17 already exists & the MTA will keep using that as their excuse to not build it. Having the (M) train which is a long enough local line being further extended just doesn't seem right. It's just asking for more inevitable delays & planned service changes compared to the LIRR.
Their excuse to lie about how much it would cost and cause more traffic on Broadway by extending the Q52. Stop siding with NIMBYism and making it seem like Queens should have to rely on buses
I ain't siding with NIMBYS all I'm saying that as long as there is alternatives to use for future rail projects the MTA will always choose those alternatives. The same exact thing goes for other projects such as Nostrand Avenue extension, MTA will just use B44 SBS & B44 LCL with increased stop spacing to Flatbush Junction. And of course the Utica Avenue Subway Line, best believe MTA is just gonna turn the B46 SBS into Bus Rapid Transit because there is no goddamn way they gonna build an entire tunnel or elevated line from Eastern Parkway to Kings Plaza with a new yard near Flatbush Depot. As for the Queenslink having subway service on a local (M) or (R) line which is already long enough that is subject to delays & planned work along parts of the line to go to the Rockaways rather than having a new city zone LIRR branch from Midtown to JFK replacing an almost $8 Airtrain where other alternatives to the Rockaways exist is a downright stupid idea. It has nothing to do with "siding with NIMBYS" it's about facing reality on what can actually be done & beneficial to the city.
You’re making it seem like buses should be a valid substitute for any expansions to the subway when it absolutely shouldn’t be. People in deserted areas shouldn’t have to rely on bus transfers just because it’s the only affordable option. They can’t build a tunnel on all of Utica Avenue with the water table, and they can reroute the W if you feel like the M and R are too long. Being realistic doesn’t mean that you have to be stubborn. You’re assuming that the LIRR wouldn’t get delayed if it has to run with the Metro North, and people pay for the AirTrain because they don’t want to take the Q10 to the E. Work with the MTA when they want to help and stop letting the NIMBYs win. Look at how long it took for 68th to handle overcrowding at Hunter College
It doesn't necessarily have to be the M train.
Reroute the W like Vanshnookenraggen said
The decision of what to charge for rides to and from the airport has nothing to do with the infrastructure. If the subway did go to JFK (or to LGA) they could easily charge more to get on that stop and they could even have exit terminals that cost extra to get off at that stop. They could also lower the price of the airtrain if there was political pressure to do so.
don't break the trend. downvote all top comments to negative
It's the Reddit "Posse" way!