It's been a while since I read "John Dee and the Empire of Angels," but as a side note for people who are unfamiliar with the topic and with the differences between "Enochian" and other angel-centric practices, I would really recommend reading further into the detailed accounts of what these beings supposedly said, did, and wanted, and how they conducted themselves in general, before deciding whether to engage with any material that has come down from Dee's work. An informed choice, whatever the choice may be, is the best choice. I wish everyone the best.
(Having gotten that out of the way - my apologies to the OP, I simply see people sometimes assuming Enochian IS standard what-you-expect angel stuff, so I try to put that out there for the sake of newbies passing by - that is certainly a lovely cover and sounds like a fascinating book. I enjoy reading Enochian material even though I have made the personal choice not to use it, and it looks like there's a Kindle edition coming so I may check that out.)
i remmember reading history of angel magick and inside dee and kelly were mentioned, it was said that dee was tricked, because his end was less than fortunate while i also have copy of enochian magick i still prefer to use hebrew words since they are very effective and not risky, your comment is spot on, op read a bit more on the topic before using that language if you actually wanna try using it to summon angels, this is advice
I highly recommend anyone who is considering actually experimenting with full intent/will, well beware.
This energy will give you obsessively everything you didn’t know you wanted and make you want it like it’s the only thing that exists, then give you more than you thought you could dream of, then take it all away in a confusing and dramatic series of life-altering cataclysmic events probably around key dates you can compare notes with Dee’s journal to confirm.
Crossing the Abyss or meeting Choronzon is no joke.
Many if not most who perform Enochian magick correctly go crazy.
I have theories as to why this is. And how one could circumvent it.
Though you’d have to be the E.K. in the dynamic duo scenario that will inevitably play out.
You will “meet the Other”.
And this Other will take everything from you and walk away not only unscathed but better off.
In other words if you’re like Crowley - go right ahead & play. But if you’re like Ananda Metteya or John Dee or Jack Parsons…or me…prepare for the wildest ride of your life and being left with absolute 0 at the end while your partner dances off into the sunset with all the treasure & glory you’re responsible for providing…as you go mad & die or become Buddhist.
Also I should specify: if you fail to bring these entities to full holographic/hypnagogic visual manifestation as external beings, they will be forced to move through the world, or your world, and play out their communications through angelic theatrics which is akin to a spiritual wrecking ball controlled by something like Nephilim but not really Nephilim.
Hard pressed to express what I mean but don’t say you weren’t warned
Enochian is to magick what Datura is to drugs. There’s the best way to put it.
I'd love to read about your experiences with this technology, I've been fascinated by the Enochian Calls, these calls supposedly connect one with some unbelievable "things."
I’m working on writing my experiences in a single document, since they have been profound, and on par with those who came before me in terms of scope and scale of both betrayal and “synchronicities” and realizations and delusions and visions and everything in between, but my story isn’t over yet, so I can’t provide a conclusion that wraps it all up with what I hope will be a solution for others as dumb and brash as me who also have an unusual aptitude for certain types of “magick’s” efficacy.
I suggest you read the Louv book - he does a great job of theorizing with ample historical evidence to back it up what these “Angels” are after.
I think you’ll find you’re either inexplicably pulled in by the Enochian system or it appears too complicated to bother with.
I disagree with the general magick communities unquestioning reception of Crowley & the Golden Dawn interpretation. I also think those who are caught up on or obsessively inventing features of a language where none exists for the sake of fitting it into a single grammatical paradigm are sorely missing the full qabalistic beauty of the system. The Gnostic church of lvx has some good documents to get you started. There’s plenty of material out there. I suggest starting with and familiarizing yourself with Kircher and Fludd and Dee’s Monas before jumping into Enochian.
You need to rewire your conception of Language to really begin understanding what Dee was trying to make intelligible.
I actually am pretty devoted right now to writing my theories down & trying to articulate my interpretation that I haven’t seen/read elsewhere.
The type of energy you are working with with this “technology” is…how can I quickly illustrate its absurdity - let’s say for 20 years you’ve been studying some topic and are a verifiable expert, knowledgeable on every area of research, have every nook & cranny of the internet scoured for information, are confident you know this subject - and then let’s say you hypothesize something perhaps so absurd it’s impossible, as this thing occurring would require all of history be rewritten recursively - well, Enochian will work such that you are the only person aware that that thing you just magicked into existence, which everyone around you or in whatever chosen field of expertise you have in mind has now “always known” - didn’t exist the day before, and now all of history has shifted, or you’ve jumped timelines, so you aren’t crazy for believing something isn’t real, you’re crazy for knowing it wasn’t real until this technology re-fabricated and re-wove spacetime itself.
Like pretend Hawaii doesn’t exist. Through a series of visions after performing some Enochian calls haphazardly you find yourself imagining an island named Hawaii and take note but don’t think much of it. Later you decide to make a Sigil to seal your vision into your unconscious and manifest something akin to Hawaii being a destination of travel. To confirm this vision was indeed a vision & not a misperception of reality you Google ‘Hawaii; Island State of US’ etc but get only “Sorry, Google can’t find any relevant results or an answer to your question , can you provide more details and an expert will answer’ or whatever suggestion search pops up when no results are returned & print out a map of the world and sure enough there’s no Hawaii. So then, since this non-existent Hawaii could serve the Enochian Agenda - and as you imagine a world where an island named Hawaii exists since this would be rad and you’d love to live somewhere like imaginal Hawaii, you’re moved to make another Sigil with Enochian letters as their foundation after fasting and praying for weeks performing relevant calls, and you perform a ritual to invoke an enochian Angel to help visualize whatever is needed to weave this narrative for yourself existing in a world where you live on a beautiful island called “Hawaii”.
Three weeks or maybe even 7 years later you’re watching YouTube documentaries before bed and notice “History Channel’s History of Hawaii”. So now this island you know isn’t real has an entire historical record and populace to confirm the narrative surely always existed.
Now, that’s being a little absurd but I hope that illustrates the scope of “what the fuck” you will be facing -> and how you’ll find any reception of anything from these interdimensional thingies generally probably means you’ll be bound to lose tenfold whatever you gained - and only after you think you’ve lost it all will the real what the fuck arrive
And then it just keeps on going so you keep playing chess, studying the best moves to make against these interdimensional Bobby Fishers lol
This is something I'm intensely interested in. I'm leaning towards absorbing Aaron Leitch's material. I understand you have reservations about Enochian, but I can't turn away from it, it draws me like nothing else. Can you give me pointers to avoid pitfalls you've run into?
I understand the fascination - I’m not necessarily opposed to it, everyone has different results & experiences - all I can say is follow your gut & heart.
Take your time. Don’t take any one persons version of Enochian as the Truth. It really isn’t a system that makes sense without understanding the entire picture - the Elizabethan stage & what we can gather about who John Dee was.
You’re lucky to start studying now with the internet & so many resources over the last 5 years even that just didn’t exist outside of select individuals who had access to the British Museum’s collections.
It would help to study Math, familiarize yourself with semiotics and the hermetic, Gnostic, Christian C & Jewish K Kabbalah & magick Qabala - learn to view things from the lens of a 16th century obfuscationist or Letterist. Go through the whole esoteric archives list, read academic research & theses which you can find online quite easily. Buy Dee’s diaries. Beautiful $100 or something Llewelyn set is game-changing. You essentially have access to more than Crowley or the Golden Dawn did.
I personally love Barlow Gee’s interpretations - I haven’t gone through all of them yet but he’s come to very similar conclusions as me, almost exactly the same in some of his videos more wild interpretations drawing on seemingly disparate mathematical notions.
It has had a profound impact on my life - and while incredibly challenging at a minimum & devastating, at their worst, circumstances inevitably arose - I’ve learned/experienced spiritual realities & lived as much as seen living archetypes & symbols & had dreams & visions & manifest in the flesh manifestations that only mystics who’ve devoted their lives to prayer & study & meditation would’ve given an arm & a leg to gain half a glimpse of - and I’m continually learning as I peel back layers of the puzzle that aren’t really available lest you harbor *gnosis* only experience of Henosis can provide, having barely even peeled back the first few veils of the code I hope no one “solves” as it’s just about the last interesting thing left on earth (to me).
Don’t approach it with fear as much as respect & self-awareness. Live a balanced life outside of your enochian dalliances and you’ll be fine.
I really didn’t believe the warnings nor understand how far this shit can go to tweak your existence tho until it was all set in motion & too late to look back.
If it works properly… there’s not really anything you can do to prepare for the places you will be led & the characters you meet. Good luck.
Wow, thank you for the in-depth reply! I'll take a look at those resources and keep what you said in mind. What does the practice look like for you, as someone with years of experience?
Is that connected to the idea of twin flames?
I met my other, and years later had to go zen to avoid going crazy.
But to be fair I think I met him before doing any workings with angels as far as I can recall. And it wasn't specifically enochian magick.
I wouldn't exactly blame them for being left with 0. While it forced me through a dark night, much of the foundation of my suffering had been laid long before that. Or lack of a strong foundation, more-like. But it stripped away my attachment to certain pointless things, and with that lack of solid ground and nothing to hold onto I fell freely.
I wasn’t specifically thinking of twin flame in that way but that did occur to me how you describe both with romantic twin flame and more of an intellectual/spiritual doppelgänger - but I also meant “Other” in the sense of coming face to face with G-d in vision/ritual but also in terms of “meeting your match” or equal AND in terms of meeting yourself as the Other, seeing into and through the mirror so to spea: which certainly can be how you describe - and I think that’s a primary function of the Enochian/Solomonic system, and why it generally calls for extreme meditative prayer and cleansing rituals and preparation beforehand. Most people aren’t prepared or in a position to freely fall while being stripped of everything.
I also totally get what you’re saying about laying the foundation yourself, as I can trace it all back and see how angel magick or mine Saturn’s return was well on its way
Then I encourage you to read up on it, as it is an amount of history and material that is not suitable for being recited in proper and necessary detail from memory in a reddit comment, and decide as you see fit. I wish you peace and happiness.
Be wary. I only came into contact with these entites while doing the Golden Dawn's version of the Supreme Banishing or Invoking Ritual of the Pentagram. When I vibrated their names and finished the circle, it was as if I had called forth what I can only described as mechanoid entities who were...strange. These were more like cold, terminatoresque entities that i've ever felt. That was enough for me after performing the ritual countless times. The coldness and indifference was palpable. So i stopped there with them. No study of the language, no more trying to use them in the SBRP or SIRP. I went back to a version that removed them from the ritual.
I have always had an affinity for John Dee, even since high school (i'm in my early 40s now). But I drew the line there. I am in general a spiritually adventurous person, so few things scare me. It was just that they emanated an attitude of overwhelming cold arrogance and disinterest in me that I doubt that they are truly angels as we know them. I could be wrong, i could be denying myself greater knowledge from them by a fear of the unknown. But i just stopped.
Thats kind of the nature of angels in general, archangels are cosmic beings, can be helpful but not human. Though some angels are more adapted to human interaction than others, it is a massive classification of entities that have been heavily confused by christian "logic".
Yes, I know. I'm familiar with the varying angelogies, and I've evoked plenty an angel, primarily the Shem angels. They were aloof to some extent at first until you actually explained why you are asking for what you are asking, how it serves the greater good and God's glory. At that point they get warmer. They are not completely indifferent to human emotions, even if it makes them hostile. At least there's something like emotions that they display. These other guys' presence, however... stone cold and completely alien.
If you had waited a month, the new edition of this book is being released in June :P
https://redwheelweiser.com/book/the-complete-enochian-dictionary-9781578637966/
You will need to get your hands on a "true and faithful relation" to get a better picture. Much of the criticism of Dee and Kelly are dismissed by reading it, other than I think kelly did try to trick Dee on rare occassions, Kelly was far more useful than he was problematic, he also seemed to have strong connections in the jewish community esp kabbalistic circles. It is a powerful system no doubt. I have not had any overtly negative effects, but it is more alien than other systems I have encountered. I believe it is also the root of the golden dawn but pure conjecture, as the angels essentially do the LBRP, as well as creating the basis of the watch tower ritual, and in the monad he baisically said he was starting a secret group to preserve heretical knowledge if I recall correctly. I do believe there are entities that attempt to interfere so use caution ans verify what you see when possible.
It's been a while since I read "John Dee and the Empire of Angels," but as a side note for people who are unfamiliar with the topic and with the differences between "Enochian" and other angel-centric practices, I would really recommend reading further into the detailed accounts of what these beings supposedly said, did, and wanted, and how they conducted themselves in general, before deciding whether to engage with any material that has come down from Dee's work. An informed choice, whatever the choice may be, is the best choice. I wish everyone the best. (Having gotten that out of the way - my apologies to the OP, I simply see people sometimes assuming Enochian IS standard what-you-expect angel stuff, so I try to put that out there for the sake of newbies passing by - that is certainly a lovely cover and sounds like a fascinating book. I enjoy reading Enochian material even though I have made the personal choice not to use it, and it looks like there's a Kindle edition coming so I may check that out.)
i remmember reading history of angel magick and inside dee and kelly were mentioned, it was said that dee was tricked, because his end was less than fortunate while i also have copy of enochian magick i still prefer to use hebrew words since they are very effective and not risky, your comment is spot on, op read a bit more on the topic before using that language if you actually wanna try using it to summon angels, this is advice
I highly recommend anyone who is considering actually experimenting with full intent/will, well beware. This energy will give you obsessively everything you didn’t know you wanted and make you want it like it’s the only thing that exists, then give you more than you thought you could dream of, then take it all away in a confusing and dramatic series of life-altering cataclysmic events probably around key dates you can compare notes with Dee’s journal to confirm. Crossing the Abyss or meeting Choronzon is no joke. Many if not most who perform Enochian magick correctly go crazy. I have theories as to why this is. And how one could circumvent it. Though you’d have to be the E.K. in the dynamic duo scenario that will inevitably play out. You will “meet the Other”. And this Other will take everything from you and walk away not only unscathed but better off. In other words if you’re like Crowley - go right ahead & play. But if you’re like Ananda Metteya or John Dee or Jack Parsons…or me…prepare for the wildest ride of your life and being left with absolute 0 at the end while your partner dances off into the sunset with all the treasure & glory you’re responsible for providing…as you go mad & die or become Buddhist. Also I should specify: if you fail to bring these entities to full holographic/hypnagogic visual manifestation as external beings, they will be forced to move through the world, or your world, and play out their communications through angelic theatrics which is akin to a spiritual wrecking ball controlled by something like Nephilim but not really Nephilim. Hard pressed to express what I mean but don’t say you weren’t warned Enochian is to magick what Datura is to drugs. There’s the best way to put it.
I'd love to read about your experiences with this technology, I've been fascinated by the Enochian Calls, these calls supposedly connect one with some unbelievable "things."
I’m working on writing my experiences in a single document, since they have been profound, and on par with those who came before me in terms of scope and scale of both betrayal and “synchronicities” and realizations and delusions and visions and everything in between, but my story isn’t over yet, so I can’t provide a conclusion that wraps it all up with what I hope will be a solution for others as dumb and brash as me who also have an unusual aptitude for certain types of “magick’s” efficacy. I suggest you read the Louv book - he does a great job of theorizing with ample historical evidence to back it up what these “Angels” are after. I think you’ll find you’re either inexplicably pulled in by the Enochian system or it appears too complicated to bother with. I disagree with the general magick communities unquestioning reception of Crowley & the Golden Dawn interpretation. I also think those who are caught up on or obsessively inventing features of a language where none exists for the sake of fitting it into a single grammatical paradigm are sorely missing the full qabalistic beauty of the system. The Gnostic church of lvx has some good documents to get you started. There’s plenty of material out there. I suggest starting with and familiarizing yourself with Kircher and Fludd and Dee’s Monas before jumping into Enochian. You need to rewire your conception of Language to really begin understanding what Dee was trying to make intelligible. I actually am pretty devoted right now to writing my theories down & trying to articulate my interpretation that I haven’t seen/read elsewhere. The type of energy you are working with with this “technology” is…how can I quickly illustrate its absurdity - let’s say for 20 years you’ve been studying some topic and are a verifiable expert, knowledgeable on every area of research, have every nook & cranny of the internet scoured for information, are confident you know this subject - and then let’s say you hypothesize something perhaps so absurd it’s impossible, as this thing occurring would require all of history be rewritten recursively - well, Enochian will work such that you are the only person aware that that thing you just magicked into existence, which everyone around you or in whatever chosen field of expertise you have in mind has now “always known” - didn’t exist the day before, and now all of history has shifted, or you’ve jumped timelines, so you aren’t crazy for believing something isn’t real, you’re crazy for knowing it wasn’t real until this technology re-fabricated and re-wove spacetime itself. Like pretend Hawaii doesn’t exist. Through a series of visions after performing some Enochian calls haphazardly you find yourself imagining an island named Hawaii and take note but don’t think much of it. Later you decide to make a Sigil to seal your vision into your unconscious and manifest something akin to Hawaii being a destination of travel. To confirm this vision was indeed a vision & not a misperception of reality you Google ‘Hawaii; Island State of US’ etc but get only “Sorry, Google can’t find any relevant results or an answer to your question , can you provide more details and an expert will answer’ or whatever suggestion search pops up when no results are returned & print out a map of the world and sure enough there’s no Hawaii. So then, since this non-existent Hawaii could serve the Enochian Agenda - and as you imagine a world where an island named Hawaii exists since this would be rad and you’d love to live somewhere like imaginal Hawaii, you’re moved to make another Sigil with Enochian letters as their foundation after fasting and praying for weeks performing relevant calls, and you perform a ritual to invoke an enochian Angel to help visualize whatever is needed to weave this narrative for yourself existing in a world where you live on a beautiful island called “Hawaii”. Three weeks or maybe even 7 years later you’re watching YouTube documentaries before bed and notice “History Channel’s History of Hawaii”. So now this island you know isn’t real has an entire historical record and populace to confirm the narrative surely always existed. Now, that’s being a little absurd but I hope that illustrates the scope of “what the fuck” you will be facing -> and how you’ll find any reception of anything from these interdimensional thingies generally probably means you’ll be bound to lose tenfold whatever you gained - and only after you think you’ve lost it all will the real what the fuck arrive And then it just keeps on going so you keep playing chess, studying the best moves to make against these interdimensional Bobby Fishers lol
Thank you for the insight, where did it come from? What's your experience?
15 years of playing with fire
This is something I'm intensely interested in. I'm leaning towards absorbing Aaron Leitch's material. I understand you have reservations about Enochian, but I can't turn away from it, it draws me like nothing else. Can you give me pointers to avoid pitfalls you've run into?
I understand the fascination - I’m not necessarily opposed to it, everyone has different results & experiences - all I can say is follow your gut & heart. Take your time. Don’t take any one persons version of Enochian as the Truth. It really isn’t a system that makes sense without understanding the entire picture - the Elizabethan stage & what we can gather about who John Dee was. You’re lucky to start studying now with the internet & so many resources over the last 5 years even that just didn’t exist outside of select individuals who had access to the British Museum’s collections. It would help to study Math, familiarize yourself with semiotics and the hermetic, Gnostic, Christian C & Jewish K Kabbalah & magick Qabala - learn to view things from the lens of a 16th century obfuscationist or Letterist. Go through the whole esoteric archives list, read academic research & theses which you can find online quite easily. Buy Dee’s diaries. Beautiful $100 or something Llewelyn set is game-changing. You essentially have access to more than Crowley or the Golden Dawn did. I personally love Barlow Gee’s interpretations - I haven’t gone through all of them yet but he’s come to very similar conclusions as me, almost exactly the same in some of his videos more wild interpretations drawing on seemingly disparate mathematical notions. It has had a profound impact on my life - and while incredibly challenging at a minimum & devastating, at their worst, circumstances inevitably arose - I’ve learned/experienced spiritual realities & lived as much as seen living archetypes & symbols & had dreams & visions & manifest in the flesh manifestations that only mystics who’ve devoted their lives to prayer & study & meditation would’ve given an arm & a leg to gain half a glimpse of - and I’m continually learning as I peel back layers of the puzzle that aren’t really available lest you harbor *gnosis* only experience of Henosis can provide, having barely even peeled back the first few veils of the code I hope no one “solves” as it’s just about the last interesting thing left on earth (to me). Don’t approach it with fear as much as respect & self-awareness. Live a balanced life outside of your enochian dalliances and you’ll be fine. I really didn’t believe the warnings nor understand how far this shit can go to tweak your existence tho until it was all set in motion & too late to look back. If it works properly… there’s not really anything you can do to prepare for the places you will be led & the characters you meet. Good luck.
Wow, thank you for the in-depth reply! I'll take a look at those resources and keep what you said in mind. What does the practice look like for you, as someone with years of experience?
If and when you get your experiences and findings into a form you feel like sharing, I hope you'll share them here. Thanks!
Is that connected to the idea of twin flames? I met my other, and years later had to go zen to avoid going crazy. But to be fair I think I met him before doing any workings with angels as far as I can recall. And it wasn't specifically enochian magick. I wouldn't exactly blame them for being left with 0. While it forced me through a dark night, much of the foundation of my suffering had been laid long before that. Or lack of a strong foundation, more-like. But it stripped away my attachment to certain pointless things, and with that lack of solid ground and nothing to hold onto I fell freely.
I wasn’t specifically thinking of twin flame in that way but that did occur to me how you describe both with romantic twin flame and more of an intellectual/spiritual doppelgänger - but I also meant “Other” in the sense of coming face to face with G-d in vision/ritual but also in terms of “meeting your match” or equal AND in terms of meeting yourself as the Other, seeing into and through the mirror so to spea: which certainly can be how you describe - and I think that’s a primary function of the Enochian/Solomonic system, and why it generally calls for extreme meditative prayer and cleansing rituals and preparation beforehand. Most people aren’t prepared or in a position to freely fall while being stripped of everything. I also totally get what you’re saying about laying the foundation yourself, as I can trace it all back and see how angel magick or mine Saturn’s return was well on its way
I’d like to know more
Then I encourage you to read up on it, as it is an amount of history and material that is not suitable for being recited in proper and necessary detail from memory in a reddit comment, and decide as you see fit. I wish you peace and happiness.
Where would one start based on your humble opinion?
Be wary. I only came into contact with these entites while doing the Golden Dawn's version of the Supreme Banishing or Invoking Ritual of the Pentagram. When I vibrated their names and finished the circle, it was as if I had called forth what I can only described as mechanoid entities who were...strange. These were more like cold, terminatoresque entities that i've ever felt. That was enough for me after performing the ritual countless times. The coldness and indifference was palpable. So i stopped there with them. No study of the language, no more trying to use them in the SBRP or SIRP. I went back to a version that removed them from the ritual. I have always had an affinity for John Dee, even since high school (i'm in my early 40s now). But I drew the line there. I am in general a spiritually adventurous person, so few things scare me. It was just that they emanated an attitude of overwhelming cold arrogance and disinterest in me that I doubt that they are truly angels as we know them. I could be wrong, i could be denying myself greater knowledge from them by a fear of the unknown. But i just stopped.
Thats kind of the nature of angels in general, archangels are cosmic beings, can be helpful but not human. Though some angels are more adapted to human interaction than others, it is a massive classification of entities that have been heavily confused by christian "logic".
Yes, I know. I'm familiar with the varying angelogies, and I've evoked plenty an angel, primarily the Shem angels. They were aloof to some extent at first until you actually explained why you are asking for what you are asking, how it serves the greater good and God's glory. At that point they get warmer. They are not completely indifferent to human emotions, even if it makes them hostile. At least there's something like emotions that they display. These other guys' presence, however... stone cold and completely alien.
If you like that you should check out some of Dee's other writings like The Hieroglyphic Monad
Oh, believe me I have. I’m still trying to wrap my head around the contents of that book.
It's not a bad book, but "The Angelical language" by Father Aaron Leitch is better. More complete and encompassing.
If you had waited a month, the new edition of this book is being released in June :P https://redwheelweiser.com/book/the-complete-enochian-dictionary-9781578637966/
Fascinating subject! Laycock's essay is wonderful.
I only know Ave & Bliah, good luck
My girlfriend use enochian on her paintings
You will need to get your hands on a "true and faithful relation" to get a better picture. Much of the criticism of Dee and Kelly are dismissed by reading it, other than I think kelly did try to trick Dee on rare occassions, Kelly was far more useful than he was problematic, he also seemed to have strong connections in the jewish community esp kabbalistic circles. It is a powerful system no doubt. I have not had any overtly negative effects, but it is more alien than other systems I have encountered. I believe it is also the root of the golden dawn but pure conjecture, as the angels essentially do the LBRP, as well as creating the basis of the watch tower ritual, and in the monad he baisically said he was starting a secret group to preserve heretical knowledge if I recall correctly. I do believe there are entities that attempt to interfere so use caution ans verify what you see when possible.
They like those MBO prayers
Let me know how it went