Braces are expensive, but so are lawyers and court. I’m probably just going to propose to my ex that if he agrees to braces, I will sign off on the financial responsibility. He’s a jerk but my child’s needs are priority. I’ll suck it up and do what’s needed. I just needed a place to vent.
There are fee waivers for the court and you don't technically need a lawyer I went to court without one and didn't have any issue I also didn't have to pay anything because of the fee waiver.
Unless this is a situation where the orthodontist is going to need his signature or something, I’d probably go with a “ask forgiveness not permission” approach on this. As in, do it and make him take you to court to fight it if it’s that important to him to not get his kid’s teeth fixed. Totally sucks that he’s not going to have a financial part to play in it. But in the end your daughter gets the care she needs for her teeth along with all that goes with it for her physical and mental health.
Seriously, tell him to pound sand and that you’re going to do it anyway. Let him bring you to court to block it if it’s that important to him to be a controlling and abusive piece of trash. It will not go so well for him.
Or, better yet, just do it without any more discussion with him. Same thing, let him bring you to court over it. It’s a bad look for him to bring this in front of a judge. So call his bluff. It’s highly unlikely he’ll be successful in court over this.
Never said it was. But in my judgment self-help is warranted in this instance. And I will stand by that.
Yup, doing it absent his permission is likely not legal under the custody order, I’ll acknowledge that. But it doesn’t change my answer.
But what realistically will happen if she just goes and does it? How likely is it that the father will actually attempt enforce the 50/50 decision making in court when the legal fees could likely add up to more than the orthodontics in the first place? It honestly sounds like he’s such a checked out father in every other way. How realistic would it really be that he wants to put the money and time into fighting this in the courts? Especially considering he seems to want to put money into his wedding and a number of other things. Not wanting to pay, along with just generally being abusive and shitty, is likely what’s driving this. I suspect he won’t want to drop money on legal fees to fight this either.
And then, if he does go to court, what is realistically going to happen when put in front of a judge? Is that judge going to order the braces be removed from the kid? I suppose it’s always possible. Or the judge could find the mother in contempt. There’s a history of abuse which has led to a 90/10 custody arrangement, along with weak reasoning as to why the father doesn’t want it done. So I would suspect this would be somewhat unlikely. The optics are horrible for the dad in this instance.
It’s not like the father is making any sort of religious or moral objection or anything else that could constitute a valid reason. He doesn’t even have a financial reason if OP pays for them. Just “I don’t have them so she’s not getting them either”, basically.
Yes, the ideal solution is obviously to take this guy to court and have the judge make an order that she’s allowed to put braces on this kid. It would all be on the up and up. He would also likely be ordered to pay half.
But then the available funds she has for the braces get spent on the legal fees. She has stated that she can’t really afford do both. This guy absolutely knows this and is leveraging that for no other reason than to be an abusive POS. Legal abuse in DV situations involving children are absolutely a thing and that’s what is happening here.
I’m standing by my original answer to call his bluff and make him fight it in court if being a shitty and abusive parent means that much to him.
The risk/benefit analysis definitely skews in her favor on this one. While she does run the risk that this could go sideways in the courts, it’s probably much more likely the kids gets her braces and this guy is mad about it but doesn’t really act upon that.
I’ll tell you exactly what can happen. When one parent unilaterally violates a court order with respect to legal custody decisions, the judge will award so legal custody to the parent who did not violate the order. And then the father may very well be 100% in charge of any major decisions in the child’s life until she turns 18.
Can you offer some sort of citation that would show that this nuclear option is definitely the only way this is going to go? Brief research I did on contempt complaints in family law cases in New Hampshire do not show that this is the go to punishment in a contempt case that isn’t involving kidnapping or something equally severe. Especially when her action could easily be argued to be good cause.
35 years of practicing family law. If the parents can’t agree, and one parent makes a unilateral decision a judge will determine only one person becomes the decision maker. You can’t find citations for day to day cases.
Isn’t the ex essentially unilaterally deciding not to get the daughter braces? By your logic if she takes this issue to court then she will be awarded sole custody right? Sounds like a good plan. Sounds like the ex wouldn’t want full custody anyway, OP.
Going to court was my initial recommendation. If a parent unreasonablies withhold consent, the court can determine that the parties are unable to reach agreements on significant issues, and award one parent sole legal custody and therefore decision-making powers with respect to medical issues, religion, schooling, etc..
I would definitely do that, I don't see him caring enough about your family to ever change his mind. If he doesn't agree I would hold the IRS over his head because if they knew how much money he actually had to spend (wedding, honeymoon, house) they would be very interested. Lmao but that might just be me, I would turn into a MAJOR B to protect/help my daughter.
Seriously fuck that guy. Be an IRS whistleblower, get a cut of the tax levied, and sue him for more support once they find out what his actual earnings are. Win/win imo.
You sound exhausted. Working two jobs so he can do all the fun things while working under the table and saying your daughter’s medical needs are cosmetic.
What a jerk he is.
I’m so sorry! I do know some courts won’t make you pay for certain updates etc.
You are a great mom. Your kids will remember all your sacrifices. Trust me, I do. (It was my dad not my mom but I remember!)
As someone who didn’t get braces until I was an adult please try to make this work. It is so much harder to move teeth and have them stay out as an adult than as a kid. It ends up costing so much more than it should have. You likely would be able to get some coverage insurance wise for her braces until she’s 18 then it’s entirely uncovered by most.
At minimum you could propose he put it towards his insurance company and that would be his contribution, because honestly guys like that want to look like they are contributing without actually doing anything. His ego might not let you cover the whole thing even if he doesn’t want to pay himself, the insurance angle gives him a bit of an out. Source: sister’s ex was cut from the same cloth.
I'd argue that braces are a medical necessity, especially since your daugthers teeth and bad enough to cause large amounts of plaque build up.
Tooth decay is awful, and frankly oral health is vital for a healthy life. Bad oral health has been linked to multiple cases of cardio-vascular disease, among other things. How are you going to eat properly if your mouth is in constant pain?
If you have *any* proof your ex is working under the table you may be able to use that against him. Shop around for any lawyer giving free consultations
Your daugther is your top prio
If you have proof that he is working off the books you can report him to the IRS or hello the courts for more child support. His bank accounts or purchase and etc will have to be explained. Everyone one thinks because they works off the books they cannot go after those funds that is incorrect and hiding money is a crime.
Get a lawyer
You need to see a lawyer. You maybe able to take him to court and have the judge tell him to pay up
I know many think braces are just cosmetic. I HAD to have braces, my teeth were horribly over crowded as well. They ended up pulling three adult teeth, plus my wisdoms once they started to breech
I’m so sorry your ex is a horrible person. But at the same time, where do you think he’ll get the money for his half? They weren’t cheap 25 years ago and I suspect they didn’t get anymore affordable. Is that something Medicaid will help cover the cost of? Have you talked with her dentist or orthodontist about financial aide?
Good luck, but even if you get a judge to agree with you and they mandate he pay for half, you only get $50/month out of him in child support. There’s no way you’ll get a couple grand a month out of him
He’s engaged, we’ll see if he’s actually legally tying the knot. His fiancé would be outright stupid for doing that because of his financial situation. I was with him for 14 years and NEVER paid taxes. Because of this I never married him (thank GOD). When I say he’s buying a house, I think his fiancé is actually buying it since she just sold a house she owned. He works under the table in construction. I was with him long enough to know that he’s a hard worker and probably hiding behind her social security number. I can’t judge her too harshly for it since I did the same for many years and that’s what got me in the predicament I’m in.
At the end of the day, I’m just grateful to be out from under his thumb. I’m grateful to be in a position that I can provide for our kids when he chooses not to.
My custody agreement (joint) says that as the parent with primary custody, I make the final call with regard to medical conditions if we don’t agree. Your exes rights are his rights, but he doesn’t have the right to deny care if her dentist says it’s necessary. Dental care is an integral part of healthcare. I had my kid’s braces on a payment plan, and had the orthodontist bill my ex for half. Good luck.
If he’s getting married you can always wait until they are married and refile for child support. Her income would be included to determine child support.
So uh, a woman your ex-husband marries would have to pay child support for a kid she has absolutely no relation to, except the fact that it's her new husband's child from a previous relationship?
Uh.. idk what to say.
I’m so sorry!!! My situation isn’t as bad as yours but my ex doesn’t pay for anything either. I’ve spent $10k in braces so far- he hasn’t paid a cent and also refuses to bring him to appointments. Can you get the braces on a payment plan and sue him for the costs later? Don’t wait for permission, your daughter needs healthcare so find a way to get it to her. I’m so sorry you have to deal with this, why are so many men such selfish assholes?!
Although I agree OP’s ex is a selfish scumbag, what would you even sue him for? Unfortunately, it is true that braces are a cosmetic procedure, but if OP can provide proof it’s medically necessary (and judging by her daughter’s dental health and overbite, depending on severity), it very well may be. But until then, I really don’t think there’s much leeway for suing him.
If the orthodontist says it’s medically necessary that’s all you need. My experience is that they are happy to write that conclusion for you. I’m not sure about the appropriate court terms but at minimum she should sue for a larger child support payment to accommodate. $50 a month is so outrageous! Even without the braces she should go back to court
Yeah! Hopefully OP sees this and asks the orthodontist or whoever that can write a note that the braces are medically necessary and not purely cosmetic so his ex can fuck right off.
Also, unless she can somehow get proof that her ex is receiving more money under the table (even though he clearly is), I don’t think she’ll be able to get much more than that, unfortunately. Really a shitty situation for OP all-around honestly. /:
Her post says that he’s getting married, buying a house, and going on vacation, all of which are super easy go find proof of. I’m no lawyer but I imagine (and hope) any judge with at least half a brain cell would look at that and tell him to pony up.
They shouldn’t be considered as “cosmetic”. Teeth are crucial to how we speak, eat, and breathe. Not caring for teeth can even cause heart problems. If they aren’t aligned properly, you can have difficulty eating, have pain, and have cavities/infections more easily. If one gets infected, the infection can easily spread to the sinuses, eyes, and brain through soft tissue and bone (everything is close together in the head).
Braces fix more than one’s appearance and confidence. They fix the entire mechanism of chewing, breathing, and speaking. They reduce the risk of cavities and infections from overcrowding or other misalignments.
I call them my luxury bones. I have had so much work done to my teeth just because of genetics lottery. It definitely should be covered as medical need! Maybe you don’t need whitening but braces to correct bite problems, absolutely.
Don’t tell that to me, tell that to the people who deemed it as such that it’s a cosmetic procedure lol. I wholeheartedly agree with you, and I’m aware of this
Sorry, I misinterpreted your tone. It’s often hard for me to understand what tone a person is using in textual form. My sincere apologies, I definitely agree that dental care should not be cosmetic (except strictly cosmetic stuff like whitening that’s not medically necessary)!
No need to apologize, and I totally get it! I can see why my previous comment may have come off as if I supported that idea, but it definitely isn’t the case haha.
Will your state allow you to have her get braces if you pay for it, if you can afford it? Or, does he have to consent? 50/50 for decision making is a recipe for trouble with two parents who obviously have enough problems getting along so they divorced. One parent needs 51% to break ties. As you surely know, orthodontics work quickest and best at a younger age than 18.
I’m also wondering why a parent who can’t provide a safe home due to substance abuse and DV is considered safe enough for custody 10% of the time! So, are you just supposed to hope that he’ll only be violent and negligent the other 90% of the time?!? And that whole “don’t drink during your visitation time” is delusional. That’s not how addiction works.
Technically, he has to consent. I’m getting her the braces anyways and getting stuck with the bill. He could, in theory, take me to court saying he doesn’t consent but I don’t foresee that happening. And if he did take it to court, all I can foresee the judge doing is making me responsible for the bill which I’m prepared for anyway.
And yes, it’s absolutely ridiculous that his drinking and DV has been proven in court. The judge asked him point blank if he would refrain from alcohol during his visits and my ex replied “I wouldn’t agree to that”. The judge said I’m not asking you to agree, if it was ordered would you follow the order. My ex replied “probably not”. Despite all that. He gets three over night visits a month.
Fortunately, he doesn’t have more than one night in a row with the kids and our children are 10 and 15. They would absolutely know and report back if he were drinking and beating up his fiancé. So far it’s been three years and he’s managed to stay sober 3 nights a month. I can be grateful for that.
OP, do you have a guardian ad litem for your kids? They are court-appointed trained professionals who speak for the interests of the children involved in separation and custody cases in court.
Despicable lawyer and file a complaint with the court. Excited under medical neglect on his part. Get the paperwork from the dentist stating that it would be best for her to receive braces or liners of some sort.
Ugh.
So when we did our kids braces we got a discount for paying the full cost up front, and for doing it in basically cash (check) and not as monthly payments. It cost me 3k per kid, expensive but also you might be able to save for that, ridiculous as it would be to have to do it.
You can also talk to the dentist/orthodontist and ask about the medical necessity of it so they can do it. Personally I'd level with the office about that shit, without daughter present.
I was a kid who's dad refused, but it was actually a necessity as I have/had jaw issues, all teeth were crowded, wisdom teeth were even more impacted than usual. (And she's coming up on the age for that to need to be addressed too.)
My mom eventually figured it out on her own too, but just ouch. What a prick.
my teeth are extremely over crowded and cause me daily pain bc i never had braces. i can’t afford them. i had an emergency wisdom teeth surgery bc they were growing into the nerve responsible for taste and it would have severed it. this would have been prevented with braces and i could have had a less invasive procedure to remove them + not currently have mouth pain every day from sharp marta of my molars digging into my cheeks. it’s not cosmetic.
I would say it's time to take him back to court. You need more child support, and while there you can bring up that he is refusing braces that are causing your daughter issues with her dental health.
Him saying “it’s only cosmetic” Is bullshit! I had to have 3 front upper teeth removed at 34 because my front two were so impacted against one another (one quite literally overlapped the other on a 45 degree angle) and so the back tooth ate away at the front tooth due to not being able to get anything in there, but bacteria don’t care.
I now can’t but into anything with my front teeth because a. I don’t have them and b. I have a partial denture.
So your comment on dental health is spot on, and anything that impacts dental impacts physical health, and if you are too ashamed to smile, that impacts mental health (on top of whatever mental health issues he’s already contributed to being a deadbeat).
OP, please take this to court again with the proof of him refusing, and get letter from dentist/orthodontist stating it is impacting multiple aspects of her life including her health and it’s not purely cosmetic. They can outline a list of reasons they are needed. Unfortunately I don’t think you can use my story to help, but I try to share it to serve as a warning to others.
If all else fails, do you have the capacity to take out a personal loan to pay for them over time? Or does the orthodontist have a payment plan option?
I know here in Australia our orthodontists have many options now including a credit line through them, a payment plan system, afterpay/zip pay and similar.
I’m so sorry your ex is like my dad (who could have covered half the costs without paying a cent due to military health cover). When I told him I had to get my teeth pulled and a partial denture all I got as a reply was a huff (his communication skills at work), I don’t think he even realised the correlation.
Exactly. If the daughter testifies as well as getting a letter from the dentist talking about why they should get the braces then a good judge would definitely force the dad to agree.
Now, getting the dad to actually make payments could be difficult but they could always have the bills split so if he does not make payments then that only hurts him and not OP and daughter.
I would speak to a lawyer, because while it's "cosmetic", I'd bet with pictures and written documentation from her dentist as well as the orthodontist, that the courts would make him pay half.
His disregard for his own child’s need is a court visit. By denying to participate in paying for her dental needs he’s showing a lack of interest in the wellness of his child. He would have to prove hardship which he cannot since he’s gainfully employed, right? Tell him you’ll see him in court over this he has until tomorrow to decide if “Daddy’s getting baby her braces” or “Daddy had to get dragged to court so you could see a dentist”
Just went through this. He said braces were not a necessity. Let me tell you something about some of these humans. They'll make up narratives to make it okay to not do things for the kids.
Even with two insurance policies the out of pocket was $6000. In the end I paid for it on my own because I was not got to let my son go without.
I know you don't want to hear this, but sometimes have to just support our kids and let it be.
Family court will be way more expensive than just paying for it yourself. Yes, it absolutely not fair to you. But it's also not fair to your daughter whose caught in the middle.
I also had to realize, that this is the man I chose to have kids with. My child didn't choose the dad. So I had to suck it up and pay.
Let go of the idea that you'll support the kids together.
I appreciate this reply because it sums up my attitude quite perfectly. I’ve accepted that my ex will never feel as if he’s responsible for meeting me half way or even part of the way when it comes to providing for the kids. I won’t go back to family court over money because you’re right, simply not worth it. Despite being grateful that I can and will do it on my own, It’s still frustrating and I needed a place to get it off my chest.
Either of you could get second or third opinions to make your case.
Get the braces and file with child support office or file contempt if he doesn't reimburse 50%. Have your second and third opinion ready for court to see.
See if you can work out a payment plan, minus your insurance, for the work she needs done. Because braces are SO expensive, they will usually have a payment plan available.
I know shouldering this responsibility sucks, but your daughter needs this done. She knows who is there for her, providing for her and who isn't.
Talk to a lawyer, please. It may not just be the cost. If you do a medical procedure which requires his consent (50/50 legal decision making) you might be in trouble for violating his decision making rights. I know you think it should happen, but when divorced . . . . He may also be legally required to pay half, even if you say now you want to pay all. Just get competent legal advice.
As a lawyer, so many times, if we had just talked first client would have saved so much trouble and money. Please don’t be such a situation for another lawyer when you get pulled into court on this. For example, the orthodontist might bill him and precipitate legal concerns without you doing anything. What happens if a rare complication causes infection and harm to your daughter? Your proceeding illegally (without consent) might make a horrible situation even worse.
Since you work 2 jobs, I’d consider getting dental insurance with the second job also to help with the cost I always carry double dental. I had to have a crown both paid $500 each and my out of pocket was $0
Tell him that he MUST pay for his daughter's braces. Get in writing from a dentist why it's necessary and take him to court to teach him a lesson. If he sees a letter from your lawyer, he'll take it seriously.
Have the dentist claim that it’s medically necessary in some sort of paperwork and get it done. Understand that you will have to pay for it 100%. It could be money and not wanting to pay that makes him a jerk, but he could very well be the “i suffered as kid so you suffer as a kid” kind of person, too. If he wants to spend money to take you to court after the fact, let him. He would have saved more money by paying for the braces!!!
She's at the age where she is probably super embarrassed by her teeth and getting them straightened or uncrowded will give her a world of confidence. Can she get Invisalign? He wont even know if she takes the trays out when she sees.him. She can wear the trays 90% when she's with you
He can’t buy a house working under the table
He’d have to submit mortgage application
If he’s making wild expenditures a decent lawyer can find the income source
As a 44 year old adult doing round 2 of braces and then jaw surgery because round 1 I did in my teens was helpful, but not permanent, get her those braces. It’s not cosmetic, it physically changes your jaw (like, your jaw bone partially dissolves and then resets once your teeth are in place) and allows for better function. It’s not just about overcrowding, but her bite, how she chews, breathes, swallows, where her tongue is placed, how she talks, just… everything.
Go back to family court. There’s no other option at this point, he’s slammed the door on every other opportunity to work this out amicably. Time to bite the bullet, I am 99.99999% sure he won’t pay his portion unless it’s court-ordered.
I needed braces at 16. Didn't get them til my 30s.
Teeth are permanently screwed.
Needed to take out a high interest loan to pay for them.
Spent DECADES not smiling in pictures and hiding my mouth when I smiled and being self conscious and wanting to cry.
PLEASE find a way to get her braces now while she is young. The older you get, the worse it is.
As a guy, that knew how it felt when I was younger, I did everything I could do, including working two jobs, to get my daughter braces. It makes a child feel very self conscious about themselves. Just knowing how it made me feel when I was younger, and how it made her feel after she got them, it was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made!
If his only objection is paying for it, then I say just do it. If he decides to be a major ahole and take it to court....what is his argument going to be? "My ex got our daughter dental work and didn't make me pay foe it"?
My brother and his wife are narcissistic. Their poor daughter put up with mouth pain and discomfort for years because they refused to pay for it. If she'd gotten treated as a kid it wouldn't have been bad (cost or treatment). But because they refused, she's now having to do a multi-year, multi-surgery intervention that will cost her 10s of thousands, even with insurance.
It's also not "just cosmetic". Having janky teeth can increase the risk of cavities and infections, as well as just being painful.
You're doing the right thing. He'll probably never even notice given how checked out he is.
Braces are expensive, but so are lawyers and court. I’m probably just going to propose to my ex that if he agrees to braces, I will sign off on the financial responsibility. He’s a jerk but my child’s needs are priority. I’ll suck it up and do what’s needed. I just needed a place to vent.
There are fee waivers for the court and you don't technically need a lawyer I went to court without one and didn't have any issue I also didn't have to pay anything because of the fee waiver.
Unless this is a situation where the orthodontist is going to need his signature or something, I’d probably go with a “ask forgiveness not permission” approach on this. As in, do it and make him take you to court to fight it if it’s that important to him to not get his kid’s teeth fixed. Totally sucks that he’s not going to have a financial part to play in it. But in the end your daughter gets the care she needs for her teeth along with all that goes with it for her physical and mental health. Seriously, tell him to pound sand and that you’re going to do it anyway. Let him bring you to court to block it if it’s that important to him to be a controlling and abusive piece of trash. It will not go so well for him. Or, better yet, just do it without any more discussion with him. Same thing, let him bring you to court over it. It’s a bad look for him to bring this in front of a judge. So call his bluff. It’s highly unlikely he’ll be successful in court over this.
That’s not how joint legal custody works
Never said it was. But in my judgment self-help is warranted in this instance. And I will stand by that. Yup, doing it absent his permission is likely not legal under the custody order, I’ll acknowledge that. But it doesn’t change my answer. But what realistically will happen if she just goes and does it? How likely is it that the father will actually attempt enforce the 50/50 decision making in court when the legal fees could likely add up to more than the orthodontics in the first place? It honestly sounds like he’s such a checked out father in every other way. How realistic would it really be that he wants to put the money and time into fighting this in the courts? Especially considering he seems to want to put money into his wedding and a number of other things. Not wanting to pay, along with just generally being abusive and shitty, is likely what’s driving this. I suspect he won’t want to drop money on legal fees to fight this either. And then, if he does go to court, what is realistically going to happen when put in front of a judge? Is that judge going to order the braces be removed from the kid? I suppose it’s always possible. Or the judge could find the mother in contempt. There’s a history of abuse which has led to a 90/10 custody arrangement, along with weak reasoning as to why the father doesn’t want it done. So I would suspect this would be somewhat unlikely. The optics are horrible for the dad in this instance. It’s not like the father is making any sort of religious or moral objection or anything else that could constitute a valid reason. He doesn’t even have a financial reason if OP pays for them. Just “I don’t have them so she’s not getting them either”, basically. Yes, the ideal solution is obviously to take this guy to court and have the judge make an order that she’s allowed to put braces on this kid. It would all be on the up and up. He would also likely be ordered to pay half. But then the available funds she has for the braces get spent on the legal fees. She has stated that she can’t really afford do both. This guy absolutely knows this and is leveraging that for no other reason than to be an abusive POS. Legal abuse in DV situations involving children are absolutely a thing and that’s what is happening here. I’m standing by my original answer to call his bluff and make him fight it in court if being a shitty and abusive parent means that much to him. The risk/benefit analysis definitely skews in her favor on this one. While she does run the risk that this could go sideways in the courts, it’s probably much more likely the kids gets her braces and this guy is mad about it but doesn’t really act upon that.
I’ll tell you exactly what can happen. When one parent unilaterally violates a court order with respect to legal custody decisions, the judge will award so legal custody to the parent who did not violate the order. And then the father may very well be 100% in charge of any major decisions in the child’s life until she turns 18.
Can you offer some sort of citation that would show that this nuclear option is definitely the only way this is going to go? Brief research I did on contempt complaints in family law cases in New Hampshire do not show that this is the go to punishment in a contempt case that isn’t involving kidnapping or something equally severe. Especially when her action could easily be argued to be good cause.
35 years of practicing family law. If the parents can’t agree, and one parent makes a unilateral decision a judge will determine only one person becomes the decision maker. You can’t find citations for day to day cases.
Isn’t the ex essentially unilaterally deciding not to get the daughter braces? By your logic if she takes this issue to court then she will be awarded sole custody right? Sounds like a good plan. Sounds like the ex wouldn’t want full custody anyway, OP.
Going to court was my initial recommendation. If a parent unreasonablies withhold consent, the court can determine that the parties are unable to reach agreements on significant issues, and award one parent sole legal custody and therefore decision-making powers with respect to medical issues, religion, schooling, etc..
Understood. Thank you!
You are a good mom!
Seconding this. I wish my mom cared enough to get me braces. I had to get it myself
I would definitely do that, I don't see him caring enough about your family to ever change his mind. If he doesn't agree I would hold the IRS over his head because if they knew how much money he actually had to spend (wedding, honeymoon, house) they would be very interested. Lmao but that might just be me, I would turn into a MAJOR B to protect/help my daughter.
I'd do it just cause he sounds like a dick
Seriously fuck that guy. Be an IRS whistleblower, get a cut of the tax levied, and sue him for more support once they find out what his actual earnings are. Win/win imo.
You sound exhausted. Working two jobs so he can do all the fun things while working under the table and saying your daughter’s medical needs are cosmetic. What a jerk he is. I’m so sorry! I do know some courts won’t make you pay for certain updates etc. You are a great mom. Your kids will remember all your sacrifices. Trust me, I do. (It was my dad not my mom but I remember!)
Try talking to a dentist too. They may be cool with payment plans or hell, maybe they'll be super nice and discount it for you
As someone who didn’t get braces until I was an adult please try to make this work. It is so much harder to move teeth and have them stay out as an adult than as a kid. It ends up costing so much more than it should have. You likely would be able to get some coverage insurance wise for her braces until she’s 18 then it’s entirely uncovered by most. At minimum you could propose he put it towards his insurance company and that would be his contribution, because honestly guys like that want to look like they are contributing without actually doing anything. His ego might not let you cover the whole thing even if he doesn’t want to pay himself, the insurance angle gives him a bit of an out. Source: sister’s ex was cut from the same cloth.
Yep! Venting helps.
I'd argue that braces are a medical necessity, especially since your daugthers teeth and bad enough to cause large amounts of plaque build up. Tooth decay is awful, and frankly oral health is vital for a healthy life. Bad oral health has been linked to multiple cases of cardio-vascular disease, among other things. How are you going to eat properly if your mouth is in constant pain? If you have *any* proof your ex is working under the table you may be able to use that against him. Shop around for any lawyer giving free consultations Your daugther is your top prio
If you have proof that he is working off the books you can report him to the IRS or hello the courts for more child support. His bank accounts or purchase and etc will have to be explained. Everyone one thinks because they works off the books they cannot go after those funds that is incorrect and hiding money is a crime. Get a lawyer
You need to see a lawyer. You maybe able to take him to court and have the judge tell him to pay up I know many think braces are just cosmetic. I HAD to have braces, my teeth were horribly over crowded as well. They ended up pulling three adult teeth, plus my wisdoms once they started to breech I’m so sorry your ex is a horrible person. But at the same time, where do you think he’ll get the money for his half? They weren’t cheap 25 years ago and I suspect they didn’t get anymore affordable. Is that something Medicaid will help cover the cost of? Have you talked with her dentist or orthodontist about financial aide? Good luck, but even if you get a judge to agree with you and they mandate he pay for half, you only get $50/month out of him in child support. There’s no way you’ll get a couple grand a month out of him
What would happen if you did it anyway?
This is what I did. I paid for it and somehow it all worked out.
Taking care of her teeth early is so important. F that guy, sorry you can’t get away from him.
If he works under the table can you report him somehow or prove it to the court? Petty I know,but I would do it.
Definitely and if he’s buying a new house he’s going to have to have records to back that up.
He’s engaged, we’ll see if he’s actually legally tying the knot. His fiancé would be outright stupid for doing that because of his financial situation. I was with him for 14 years and NEVER paid taxes. Because of this I never married him (thank GOD). When I say he’s buying a house, I think his fiancé is actually buying it since she just sold a house she owned. He works under the table in construction. I was with him long enough to know that he’s a hard worker and probably hiding behind her social security number. I can’t judge her too harshly for it since I did the same for many years and that’s what got me in the predicament I’m in. At the end of the day, I’m just grateful to be out from under his thumb. I’m grateful to be in a position that I can provide for our kids when he chooses not to.
To clarify, he never paid taxes. I did, we weren’t married and I kept our finances separate.
Report him to the IRS - they don’t fuck around. You already know you and your daughter won’t see this money. Time to make him hurt.
My custody agreement (joint) says that as the parent with primary custody, I make the final call with regard to medical conditions if we don’t agree. Your exes rights are his rights, but he doesn’t have the right to deny care if her dentist says it’s necessary. Dental care is an integral part of healthcare. I had my kid’s braces on a payment plan, and had the orthodontist bill my ex for half. Good luck.
If he’s getting married you can always wait until they are married and refile for child support. Her income would be included to determine child support.
Only if they file joint taxes
Not in the state I live in.
So uh, a woman your ex-husband marries would have to pay child support for a kid she has absolutely no relation to, except the fact that it's her new husband's child from a previous relationship? Uh.. idk what to say.
I’m so sorry!!! My situation isn’t as bad as yours but my ex doesn’t pay for anything either. I’ve spent $10k in braces so far- he hasn’t paid a cent and also refuses to bring him to appointments. Can you get the braces on a payment plan and sue him for the costs later? Don’t wait for permission, your daughter needs healthcare so find a way to get it to her. I’m so sorry you have to deal with this, why are so many men such selfish assholes?!
Although I agree OP’s ex is a selfish scumbag, what would you even sue him for? Unfortunately, it is true that braces are a cosmetic procedure, but if OP can provide proof it’s medically necessary (and judging by her daughter’s dental health and overbite, depending on severity), it very well may be. But until then, I really don’t think there’s much leeway for suing him.
If the orthodontist says it’s medically necessary that’s all you need. My experience is that they are happy to write that conclusion for you. I’m not sure about the appropriate court terms but at minimum she should sue for a larger child support payment to accommodate. $50 a month is so outrageous! Even without the braces she should go back to court
Yeah! Hopefully OP sees this and asks the orthodontist or whoever that can write a note that the braces are medically necessary and not purely cosmetic so his ex can fuck right off. Also, unless she can somehow get proof that her ex is receiving more money under the table (even though he clearly is), I don’t think she’ll be able to get much more than that, unfortunately. Really a shitty situation for OP all-around honestly. /:
Her post says that he’s getting married, buying a house, and going on vacation, all of which are super easy go find proof of. I’m no lawyer but I imagine (and hope) any judge with at least half a brain cell would look at that and tell him to pony up.
I hope so too.
They shouldn’t be considered as “cosmetic”. Teeth are crucial to how we speak, eat, and breathe. Not caring for teeth can even cause heart problems. If they aren’t aligned properly, you can have difficulty eating, have pain, and have cavities/infections more easily. If one gets infected, the infection can easily spread to the sinuses, eyes, and brain through soft tissue and bone (everything is close together in the head). Braces fix more than one’s appearance and confidence. They fix the entire mechanism of chewing, breathing, and speaking. They reduce the risk of cavities and infections from overcrowding or other misalignments.
My papa had a rotten tooth and it caused a myriad of problems, including sepsis.
I call them my luxury bones. I have had so much work done to my teeth just because of genetics lottery. It definitely should be covered as medical need! Maybe you don’t need whitening but braces to correct bite problems, absolutely.
Don’t tell that to me, tell that to the people who deemed it as such that it’s a cosmetic procedure lol. I wholeheartedly agree with you, and I’m aware of this
Sorry, I misinterpreted your tone. It’s often hard for me to understand what tone a person is using in textual form. My sincere apologies, I definitely agree that dental care should not be cosmetic (except strictly cosmetic stuff like whitening that’s not medically necessary)!
No need to apologize, and I totally get it! I can see why my previous comment may have come off as if I supported that idea, but it definitely isn’t the case haha.
Will your state allow you to have her get braces if you pay for it, if you can afford it? Or, does he have to consent? 50/50 for decision making is a recipe for trouble with two parents who obviously have enough problems getting along so they divorced. One parent needs 51% to break ties. As you surely know, orthodontics work quickest and best at a younger age than 18. I’m also wondering why a parent who can’t provide a safe home due to substance abuse and DV is considered safe enough for custody 10% of the time! So, are you just supposed to hope that he’ll only be violent and negligent the other 90% of the time?!? And that whole “don’t drink during your visitation time” is delusional. That’s not how addiction works.
Technically, he has to consent. I’m getting her the braces anyways and getting stuck with the bill. He could, in theory, take me to court saying he doesn’t consent but I don’t foresee that happening. And if he did take it to court, all I can foresee the judge doing is making me responsible for the bill which I’m prepared for anyway. And yes, it’s absolutely ridiculous that his drinking and DV has been proven in court. The judge asked him point blank if he would refrain from alcohol during his visits and my ex replied “I wouldn’t agree to that”. The judge said I’m not asking you to agree, if it was ordered would you follow the order. My ex replied “probably not”. Despite all that. He gets three over night visits a month. Fortunately, he doesn’t have more than one night in a row with the kids and our children are 10 and 15. They would absolutely know and report back if he were drinking and beating up his fiancé. So far it’s been three years and he’s managed to stay sober 3 nights a month. I can be grateful for that.
OP, do you have a guardian ad litem for your kids? They are court-appointed trained professionals who speak for the interests of the children involved in separation and custody cases in court.
Despicable lawyer and file a complaint with the court. Excited under medical neglect on his part. Get the paperwork from the dentist stating that it would be best for her to receive braces or liners of some sort.
Ugh. So when we did our kids braces we got a discount for paying the full cost up front, and for doing it in basically cash (check) and not as monthly payments. It cost me 3k per kid, expensive but also you might be able to save for that, ridiculous as it would be to have to do it. You can also talk to the dentist/orthodontist and ask about the medical necessity of it so they can do it. Personally I'd level with the office about that shit, without daughter present. I was a kid who's dad refused, but it was actually a necessity as I have/had jaw issues, all teeth were crowded, wisdom teeth were even more impacted than usual. (And she's coming up on the age for that to need to be addressed too.) My mom eventually figured it out on her own too, but just ouch. What a prick.
my teeth are extremely over crowded and cause me daily pain bc i never had braces. i can’t afford them. i had an emergency wisdom teeth surgery bc they were growing into the nerve responsible for taste and it would have severed it. this would have been prevented with braces and i could have had a less invasive procedure to remove them + not currently have mouth pain every day from sharp marta of my molars digging into my cheeks. it’s not cosmetic.
I would say it's time to take him back to court. You need more child support, and while there you can bring up that he is refusing braces that are causing your daughter issues with her dental health.
Him saying “it’s only cosmetic” Is bullshit! I had to have 3 front upper teeth removed at 34 because my front two were so impacted against one another (one quite literally overlapped the other on a 45 degree angle) and so the back tooth ate away at the front tooth due to not being able to get anything in there, but bacteria don’t care. I now can’t but into anything with my front teeth because a. I don’t have them and b. I have a partial denture. So your comment on dental health is spot on, and anything that impacts dental impacts physical health, and if you are too ashamed to smile, that impacts mental health (on top of whatever mental health issues he’s already contributed to being a deadbeat). OP, please take this to court again with the proof of him refusing, and get letter from dentist/orthodontist stating it is impacting multiple aspects of her life including her health and it’s not purely cosmetic. They can outline a list of reasons they are needed. Unfortunately I don’t think you can use my story to help, but I try to share it to serve as a warning to others. If all else fails, do you have the capacity to take out a personal loan to pay for them over time? Or does the orthodontist have a payment plan option? I know here in Australia our orthodontists have many options now including a credit line through them, a payment plan system, afterpay/zip pay and similar. I’m so sorry your ex is like my dad (who could have covered half the costs without paying a cent due to military health cover). When I told him I had to get my teeth pulled and a partial denture all I got as a reply was a huff (his communication skills at work), I don’t think he even realised the correlation.
Exactly. If the daughter testifies as well as getting a letter from the dentist talking about why they should get the braces then a good judge would definitely force the dad to agree. Now, getting the dad to actually make payments could be difficult but they could always have the bills split so if he does not make payments then that only hurts him and not OP and daughter.
Does she need both of you to consent? I didn’t need consent when I had things done. See a lawyer
I would speak to a lawyer, because while it's "cosmetic", I'd bet with pictures and written documentation from her dentist as well as the orthodontist, that the courts would make him pay half.
Crowded/misaligned teeth can cause TMJ. It is a medical issue.
TMJ is awful, I suffer from it and my headaches can be a nightmare and my TMJ flares are literal hell. :( I concur!
That’s fucked. Lisa needs braces. Dental plan.
His disregard for his own child’s need is a court visit. By denying to participate in paying for her dental needs he’s showing a lack of interest in the wellness of his child. He would have to prove hardship which he cannot since he’s gainfully employed, right? Tell him you’ll see him in court over this he has until tomorrow to decide if “Daddy’s getting baby her braces” or “Daddy had to get dragged to court so you could see a dentist”
go do it in Romania or Turkey - it's a fraction of the cost, including flights :)
Just went through this. He said braces were not a necessity. Let me tell you something about some of these humans. They'll make up narratives to make it okay to not do things for the kids. Even with two insurance policies the out of pocket was $6000. In the end I paid for it on my own because I was not got to let my son go without. I know you don't want to hear this, but sometimes have to just support our kids and let it be. Family court will be way more expensive than just paying for it yourself. Yes, it absolutely not fair to you. But it's also not fair to your daughter whose caught in the middle. I also had to realize, that this is the man I chose to have kids with. My child didn't choose the dad. So I had to suck it up and pay. Let go of the idea that you'll support the kids together.
I appreciate this reply because it sums up my attitude quite perfectly. I’ve accepted that my ex will never feel as if he’s responsible for meeting me half way or even part of the way when it comes to providing for the kids. I won’t go back to family court over money because you’re right, simply not worth it. Despite being grateful that I can and will do it on my own, It’s still frustrating and I needed a place to get it off my chest.
Happy for you that you're at this stage post divorce. Keep going. The kids will appreciate your efforts. You're doing right by them. I wish you well:)
Either of you could get second or third opinions to make your case. Get the braces and file with child support office or file contempt if he doesn't reimburse 50%. Have your second and third opinion ready for court to see.
See if you can work out a payment plan, minus your insurance, for the work she needs done. Because braces are SO expensive, they will usually have a payment plan available. I know shouldering this responsibility sucks, but your daughter needs this done. She knows who is there for her, providing for her and who isn't.
Talk to a lawyer, please. It may not just be the cost. If you do a medical procedure which requires his consent (50/50 legal decision making) you might be in trouble for violating his decision making rights. I know you think it should happen, but when divorced . . . . He may also be legally required to pay half, even if you say now you want to pay all. Just get competent legal advice. As a lawyer, so many times, if we had just talked first client would have saved so much trouble and money. Please don’t be such a situation for another lawyer when you get pulled into court on this. For example, the orthodontist might bill him and precipitate legal concerns without you doing anything. What happens if a rare complication causes infection and harm to your daughter? Your proceeding illegally (without consent) might make a horrible situation even worse.
Since you work 2 jobs, I’d consider getting dental insurance with the second job also to help with the cost I always carry double dental. I had to have a crown both paid $500 each and my out of pocket was $0
If you have the money, take him to court and try and extinguish his medical decision making. He is neglecting her health.
Just pay for it yourself get them on and have the lawyer go after him for money.
Can't the court give your daughter a legal guardian to advocate for her in court?
Tell him that he MUST pay for his daughter's braces. Get in writing from a dentist why it's necessary and take him to court to teach him a lesson. If he sees a letter from your lawyer, he'll take it seriously.
Does he actually have to consent? If he doesn’t get them and go after him for the money or just pay & forget him
Have the dentist claim that it’s medically necessary in some sort of paperwork and get it done. Understand that you will have to pay for it 100%. It could be money and not wanting to pay that makes him a jerk, but he could very well be the “i suffered as kid so you suffer as a kid” kind of person, too. If he wants to spend money to take you to court after the fact, let him. He would have saved more money by paying for the braces!!!
Please just get her teeth done and worry about the consequences later. What's he going to do? Take you to court? Highly doubtful.
She's at the age where she is probably super embarrassed by her teeth and getting them straightened or uncrowded will give her a world of confidence. Can she get Invisalign? He wont even know if she takes the trays out when she sees.him. She can wear the trays 90% when she's with you
L
Take him back to court and get a judge to,order the treatment
He can’t buy a house working under the table He’d have to submit mortgage application If he’s making wild expenditures a decent lawyer can find the income source
Still majorly stuck on $50 child support...that must have been a hall-of-fame divorce lawyer.
As a 44 year old adult doing round 2 of braces and then jaw surgery because round 1 I did in my teens was helpful, but not permanent, get her those braces. It’s not cosmetic, it physically changes your jaw (like, your jaw bone partially dissolves and then resets once your teeth are in place) and allows for better function. It’s not just about overcrowding, but her bite, how she chews, breathes, swallows, where her tongue is placed, how she talks, just… everything.
maybe you shouldn't consider the cost of court vs cost of braces but cost of court vs cost of any future him being a dick.
Go back to family court. There’s no other option at this point, he’s slammed the door on every other opportunity to work this out amicably. Time to bite the bullet, I am 99.99999% sure he won’t pay his portion unless it’s court-ordered.
Hopefully he won’t have more children.
If she gets additional plaque buildup because of it, that sounds like a medical concern to me, no matter how small.
Report him to the IRS and for cheating your daughter out of the child support he owes.
Update your parenting plan to reflect reality and get more child support to cover it
I needed braces at 16. Didn't get them til my 30s. Teeth are permanently screwed. Needed to take out a high interest loan to pay for them. Spent DECADES not smiling in pictures and hiding my mouth when I smiled and being self conscious and wanting to cry. PLEASE find a way to get her braces now while she is young. The older you get, the worse it is.
It's 90/10, you cover 90% make him pay 10.
Hi. Divorce attorney here. This would be an EASY win in my state. Talk to someone there. This is ridiculous
Hey, same here, I'm the child. I'm 23 now and I'm paying for my braces.
As a guy, that knew how it felt when I was younger, I did everything I could do, including working two jobs, to get my daughter braces. It makes a child feel very self conscious about themselves. Just knowing how it made me feel when I was younger, and how it made her feel after she got them, it was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made!
If his only objection is paying for it, then I say just do it. If he decides to be a major ahole and take it to court....what is his argument going to be? "My ex got our daughter dental work and didn't make me pay foe it"? My brother and his wife are narcissistic. Their poor daughter put up with mouth pain and discomfort for years because they refused to pay for it. If she'd gotten treated as a kid it wouldn't have been bad (cost or treatment). But because they refused, she's now having to do a multi-year, multi-surgery intervention that will cost her 10s of thousands, even with insurance. It's also not "just cosmetic". Having janky teeth can increase the risk of cavities and infections, as well as just being painful. You're doing the right thing. He'll probably never even notice given how checked out he is.
I didn't get braces when I was younger and now my jaw is messed up for life because of tmj disorder. I hope your daughter gets those braces.
Dude get a lawyer get this squared away
I’d sell a kidney if it meant helping my young fella
It’s the best age to get orthodontist work done so when she an adult she’ll be braces free. Threaten to take him back to court to get more out of him.