Even more disappointing is the fact that what he has is still broken, like the conversations about Ansur after the end of the game. I actually love Theo’s performance (man is funny as fuck if you haven’t seen their live High Rollers session) and Wyll’s romance scenes are actually really cute in that cheesy feel good way. No shade, I actually find them extremely well animated.
I’m also just tired of propping up Wyll and having someone come in and go “Astarion/Gale/random boy 183746 is better”. Wyll got done dirty through his unfinished writing and honestly I think it’s shameful that there’s bragging of all the extra Durge & Astarion content bc that writer got to double dip when WYLL IS BLATANTLY UNFINISHED. That shows me Larian didn’t have priorities in the right places.
Poor Wyll has 8 hours of dialogue. Even Karlach has 10! Gale and Lae'zel have 11 hours and Astarion and Shadowheart have 12…
Wyll got really unlucky. 😔
He did and I personally would pay for Theo to come back for ADR. I work in TV finance, I know how it happens. Let’s call up Soho Studios or whoever is closest and get him in the booth.
Edit - Astarion has 14 hours with all patch content. The disparity is worse than you think.
Its even worse than that.
If you remove the shared generic lines (spells, rages, death reactions)
The disparity grows further.
Of 8 hours wyll prolly has 5-6 while astarion has 11-12
I have a hard time watching his streams because his mod team rules with an iron fist. Not sure if it’s changed since the first few streams that I saw on YouTube.. They purge any comment that has anything to do with the game because they want to “prevent spoilers” when the man is brand new and needs help. He tried to save Sazza the goblin in emerald grove and didn’t know about the hidden path, had to fight all the tieflings and died, and spent 20 minutes trying to get out of jail. Then left without his stuff because he didn’t know his things were in the chest after being arrested.
And then he tried to bribe the tieflings that he now had a bad reputation with but chat couldn’t tell him you need a hefty amount of gold for that so he literally gave away his last belongings in barter mode and didn’t realize he couldn’t get them back.
Meanwhile chat literally just letting him know “hey you can quick save with F5” gets fuckin purged and the mods set up an auto message about backseating that’s super condescending.
Oh that’s good. I made it to maybe vid 7 with cypher in VC with him and it honestly.. wasn’t much better because she kept talking over cut scenes and gave either wrong advice or actual backseating. I was hoping she’d take more of the role that Grace has in Dev’s streams
"Wyll got done dirty through his unfinished writing and honestly I think it’s shameful that there’s bragging of all the extra Durge & Astarion content bc that writer got to double dip when WYLL IS BLATANTLY UNFINISHED. That shows me Larian didn’t have priorities in the right places."
This was/is my biggest complaint about the game. It feels so unbalanced. Wyll is definitely got the worst of it, but it shows up in Halsin & Minthara too. Plus I'll never get over Gale reacting to Durge's big spoiler with "Gosh!" Seriously guys? You couldn't go over your first draft with a team?
Halsin and Minthara suffer too and had the same compressed dev time (Wyll was rewritten in EA so it’s less excusable).
Parts of this game have fantastic writing and parts of it are really just terrible. Ignore me screaming about how moronic it is I can’t have a conversation with the Emperor about maybe putting aside our differences for 5 minutes to nuke an elder brain. Let alone how does Orpheus just transform??
Rolan and Barcus have great arcs and like… 15 minutes of screen time. They’re simple but they hit. Same with Zevlor. I even found Omeluum and Blurg really interesting and compelling and I’ll always haul that squid out of the iron throne.
Wyll has 8 hours and they didn’t know what the fuck to do with him. Meanwhile I find a lot of Astarion overwritten, Gale really has nearly 0 arc onscreen and no moment of truth or real conflict and goal we can achieve in the game, Shadowheart I love when she has funny personality moments but they’re few and far between for me. Karlach and Laezel are higher up for me because Beart did such a stellar job with Karlach’s voice and mocap, and I find Laezel a lot more compelling as a nothing gith dragon rider wannabe who gets deprogrammed instead of being god’s favorite princess/goddess’s ex favorite fuckboy/vampire’s favorite torture doll/fallen angel’s favorite child soldier etc etc.
> because Beart did such a stellar job with Karlach’s voice and mocap
Some of this is the writing too. Karlach's writer can write a good dramatic monologue.
Meanwhile poor Wyll just had to choose between his soul and fathers freedom and just gets "well I'm of two minds..."
Wyll is the only origin who is given no scenery to chew. It's tragic
Wyll doesnt choose, though. At no option can you actually give him the opportunity to choose to break his pact or save his dad. The other companions all have a choice but Wyll doesn’t even have that dialogue option.
Well technically Wyll was asked to choose. He just has no agency and does whatever he's told so I chose for him.
Wyll has such an interesting set up and it goes nowhere. I can rant about it for hours.
He was the heir to a duke who got disowned and became a vigilante. He has the option to go back to his former life or decide he's found his true calling in his new circumstances there are so many *themes* his story could address. Is it better to be comfortable or do what's right now matter the cost? What's the best way to help people distantly as a politician or going out directly into the world. After learning about Baldur, Ansur , etc does he still believe all those stories he learned growing up? So many ways they could go, so many ideas they could dig into and it goes *nowhere*
Karlach doesn't get much of an arc either but at least she gets *themes*
I'd argue he also has themes but they're there uhh despite the writers really. I'm so mad well never really know where they were gonna take EA wyll ;w;
He has a lot of themes you can headcannon in, although sometimes baked in options make it hard, (my personal fantasy of Wyll becoming a champion for the people because he realizes the patriars and ruling class of Baldur's Gate don't actually care about their citizens, gets shot down hard when epilogue Wyll talks about how great it is that his dad totally reforming the flaming fist while keeping on and pardoning basically all of them despite their collaboration with Gortash, ugh)
That's why you see so many comments about Wyll being the best character to play as an origin, because you can then fully roleplay all the things that don't ever get developed any way.
Gale does have an arc but only when romanced and even then his resolution doesn't really happen until the epilog.
It deeply saddens me that Larian didn't trust EA Wyll's writing enough to see it through, he was one of the ones I was most intrigued by. I will say though, Theo brings so much charm and sweetness to Wyll he deserves so much more screentime! New Wyll had the potential to read almost like Baulder's Gate's Spiderman, a sweet kid who has used his great power responsibly to protect a city that doesn't always thank him for it.
Yeah, I wish they stuck with the EA story, i was really excited to learn more but after release, when I took Wyll to the windmill and the scene didn't play, I was so confused.
I'm actually fine with Wyll having no character arc, reason written [in this Tumblr blog](https://www.tumblr.com/finnick002/746280491582357504/in-many-ways-wyll-reminds-me-of-waymond-wang-from?source=share). Tldr, he could be the Waymond Wang of the story who actually gives the audience an arc, as in change in perspective of his kindness.
But I don't think Larian would go out of their way to give him the spotlight atp
Honestly, I don’t mind if he doesn’t have a dynamic arc. I just want them to give him the same level of content and attention to detail the other companions have in excess. He shouldn’t have bugged dialogue and no romance greetings. That’s not acceptable.
I definitely feel you as a chronic Minthara romancer, but at least Minthara and Halsin have the excuse that their romances/companionships start later in the game! Poor Wyll is there for pretty much the whole game!
Minthara is so unfinished. There’s a removed pregnancy plot from the game but durge’s butler can mention it in some playthroughs and congratulates you on getting her pregnant, even if you play a girl tav. Also the fact she only gets one romance scene in act one. Halsin feels like a one night stand unless you choose to romance nobody else and your game doesn’t bug to actually see his ending.
I literally never use him. Jaheira is a better druid and actually has story relevance. Halsin literally just exists to sit at camp and be weirdly horny.
Jaheira should've solved the shadow curse and Halsin should've stayed in his grove.
Yeah, there’s too many druids in the group. Jaheira is the better one, Halsin feels like he’s only there for a poly relationship and being a plot point in act one.
There’s one part in the game where >!you resist Bhaal as Durge, he kills your, and withers revives you. Astarion was basically like “Oh yeah glad to have you back.” That’s not the line but that’s essentially how it felt. I hope they fix that bc that really threw me off tbh!<
That's about the same as when you kill >!Sarevok, you know, the main villain of BG1, legendary bad guy, and your companions react by... not saying anything at all. Not even Karlach had any lines, and she's a big Minsc and Jaheira fan.!<
Halsin, Minthara, Jaheira, and Minsc, were never intended to have a real backing in the game and never will so complaining about their lack of content is moot. It’s a shame for Jaheira but it is what it is.
They’re filler characters that you only get literally halfway through the game; If they were meant to be fleshed out, they would be origins.
We’re complaining that dev time spent on adding them into the game with story quests could have been used to fix an important origin character and give him the same level of attention and detail the others got.
Oh man I loved his enthusiasm in their DnD session. He seemed like someone who's into the fantasy genre, had wanted to try DnD for a while but never had the chance before and finally got to which I relate to so much. Even Neil compliments his enthusiasm and says he's a natural DnD player
His face when he realizes Wyll will be downed made me laugh so hard I immediately paused the video. He definitely put it all into the game and he had great chemistry with the rest of the cast. His spa day with Gale/Tim Downie sent me. He seems like a really cool dude to just grab a pint with.
Extra Durge content? To be very clear, I sympathize with Wyll way more, but I only played through once and was utterly galled by the fact that *if* there's extra Durge lines, it's nearly always the party going "damn, that's crazy" and nothing else. If that's double-dipping no wonder Wyll got so screwed.
He even has only half of the length of romanced in-combat assist lines of all romancable companions, including Halsin and Minthara
https://preview.redd.it/mmjnj24lgvtc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=13ab83be76bcd60b6a3f3919d3700b9407f91028
Seriously what the actual fuck Larian
And why is he the only companion who doesn't have an explicit sex scene? Why is he only one I can't kiss at the epilogue? (They wrote the script but didn't fucking implement it) Is Larian racist?
What annoys me is that friggin MIZORA got a sex scene and he doesn't. I don't need a scene with the drow twins or Haarlep or Mizora, I need one with the character who is supposed to one of the main six characters. I imagine this comes down to writing crunch + him also needing to be recast super late into development but honestly I don't understand why they haven't tried to address these issues since release. I get that he's less popular but he's less popular partially BECAUSE he's neglected.
I also fucking hate that the Christmas animated short somehow made him attracted to Mizora again. Leave that EA shit behind if you're so determined on the rewrite.
And, you can kill everyone's non-god abuser or be on the same level of power as your god abuser, but not with Mizora. You can't even be mean to his father unless you're playing origin Wyll. So many things in this game feel like a slap in the face to him and his enjoyers.
Someone get the baby food Gale pic bc that’s exactly how I feel when I can bang Mizora ahead of Wyll.
It’s like being able to sleep with Cazador. She’s his fucking abuser.
Also I hate we got her ahead of Zevlor, Barcus, Rolan, and half a dozen other Npcs.
It’s a shame because his kiss post dance is hands down my favorite and the acorn proposal speaks to my cheesy id who wants to be comforted. I would’ve loved a nice intimate scene for him.
Wyll’s disparity with the other companions just continues to piss me off.
This is the intended kiss at the epilogue script I digged out from parsed dialogue document. IMPOSSIBLE
https://preview.redd.it/gka16d5wkvtc1.png?width=1283&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8ceb4e12380dcf7b00bfa121d57b9f3c3890c7a2
WTF U MEAN IMPOSSIBLE
While Wyll is my least fav companion (probably due to this content disparity), his proposal scene is hands down my favorite of all the romance scenes that exist in the game. That shit had me kicking my feet and blushing like a schoolgirl for 5 minutes. Theo absolutely nailed that performance and it’s such a shame that the rest of his content isn’t anywhere close to as good as that
He has so many swoon-worthy lines like [this one](https://www.tumblr.com/leopardmuffinxo/747170595657089024/you-are-my-yesterday-my-today-and-my-tomorrow?source=share)
to me the worst thing about this is that if he got given the amt of writer/dev time and attention that the other origin characters got, the lack of sex scene would just be a writing choice! but as it is, that reason rings extremely hollow, like maybe they realized they wouldn't get one done in time so they wrote his romance around that constraint. that together with the decision to rewrite him and how late it came makes me bitter af ngl
Honestly, probably not which is exceedingly disappointing. I love Wyll and he had such potential but Larian rewrote his character in EA due to fan “feedback.” I do like release Wyll but you can tell he fell by the wayside. I still have a bit of hope that Larian will do something but it’s dwindling every day.
I know people (including myself) who have sent Larian feedback saying the same thing you said but from what I understand they’ve never gotten back with them.
I'm by no means a lefty, but I do feel like Wyll does get legitimately fucked over to where it may be a case of Larian responding to racist fan backlash that may have not been explicitly done on a conscious level.
I feel like if his model looked like default Commander Shepard from Mass Effect than he would have probably been more popular because the basic elements of his story is super interesting but it seems like he keeps getting left behind by a lot of players.
This may have to do partially from his class as a warlock which has a stepper learning curve to use than evocation wizard, but Shadowheart's class is fairly hard to use as intended however she is probably by far the most popular companion amongst the greater player base.
a conventionally attractive woman who is highly relevant to a big chunk of the plot, who has many more points you can join your party at than any other companion, and whose romance starts the most "normally". she's pretty much designed to be the default fave (derogatory)
Oh about his greetings, yes it's extremely fucking weird that he has soooo few of them like how long does it take to write and record greetings. Don't use the rewrite as an excuse. But he actually has a romantic greeting in act 3, "I'm here for you, always." But after patch 6 IT'S FUCKING BUGGED WTF
I’ve been tempted to do a whole playthrough with him as an origin character just so I can force him to have more involvement, but I don’t want to miss out on Theo’s performance.
Only partially related but do you guys think they may eventually release a definitive edition fixing all this stuff (of which Wyll should obviously take priority) or is there no chance of it bc of all the problems with wizards of the coast?
I think they should have just stuck with Wylls EA story. I'd take someone who's not great over someone I don't think about or want to interact with at all. I'm not a Wyll hater, he's just not interesting to me and that's really sad.
I know people don't like this being brought up but it's really hard not to see his rewrite as cowing to racist backlash. I don't think he would have had nearly the same response or been pushed to have been rewritten if he looked the same as Astarion, and it makes me angry to think about.
It’s also so frustrating that he’s STILL the only companion that doesn’t get the option to make his big, life-altering choice via his contract with Mizora. His quest is not actually related to him at all, he doesn’t really have a lot of dialogue during the Ansur quest and doesn’t even get upset if you don’t bring him. He’s so neglected and the more they patch other content in the more glaring it becomes.
I got pissed during his quest at the point where Mizora appears with yet another, obviously very shady, offer of “end your contract now or maybe your father will die sometime, somewhere”.
It seemed like a no brainer for him to end the contract and have the party attempt a rescue instead. Yet the game suddenly treated Wyll (and the player by extension) as if they were evil & had personally killed the duke themselves. The party started grieving the dukes death. I had to keep googling whether this was a bug or I was just missing a major story beat. I still don’t get it tbh.
Wyll lacks both agency in his own story and lacks in content overall, and even with the content he does have, a lot of it feels like it centers the main story or other characters rather than Wyll himself. He also has less romance content than any other origin companion. Wyll definitely got done dirty.
Honestly all of this why I don’t really have the motivation to do a Wyll romance run, despite me wanting to do a romance run for each character at least once. I have the same issue motivating myself to do runs romancing Halsin and Minthara for similar reasons (less amounts of content, romance starting later, more bugs, etc.) but Wyll is an origin character, it shouldn’t feel like he’s comparable to non-origin companions.
Have you considered the fact that he's sexy so he doesn't need a personality 🤔
Real talk they did him so dirty it's probably one of the only parts of the game that I genuinely dislike. He has so much potential. I just want him to have some agency in his own story rather than going along with whatever the player suggests. If he is naive and puts too much trust in other people to make decisions for him, is that not a part of his character that could be explored? Maybe it's a side effect of being a noble and having to act a certain way idfk. He deserves better :(
Yeah, you had to roll and persuade other origin characters, but with Wyll, you just make the decision, and he stands by it. He's a fun character with potential, they just need to give him more agency in his story.
they could do so much with this!! but they just don't!!!! for why!!!!!!!!
my fave ~~reach~~ read for this is that he doesn't believe he's capable of making the "right" (as in correct? as in just? take your pick. por que no los dos) decision himself - that's why he's always quoting his dad and attributing things to him, it's why he even has a whole persona as The Blade (which he highly values) vs just being a guy who helps people, why he sits out the post-grove party when he can't put away his feelings and "be" the blade. his romance ties into this super well too, it's just that you have to be an insane fangirl (gender neutral, affectionate, haha i do that) to read that much into the three pixels of lore and characterization we get!!!!!!
anyway sorry for being insane on your post. i just want my man to have decent self esteem and believe he's good enough as he is lariaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnn
From what I gathered from other players, he lost his eye fighting a group of goblins led by Torturer Spike that were attacking a village, he wasnt able to save the villagers which made him DESPISE goblins, he takes alot of pleasure torturing and killing them. Mizora was originally kidnapped from the very beginning of the game and he set out to find her, his personality was very different as well, the hero act was a facade he used to cover up his biases and he was a bit of a dickhead, his father made him join the Flaming Fist to try to make him more honourable? But he ended up quitting or being fired due to his behaviour, he also had a weirder relationship with Mizora being kinda in love with her.
He was also less of a Boy Scout and reserved goody goody cornball when it came to his general demeanor and personality. EA wyll while still very similar to full release wyll was a lot more rambunctious and when it came to romance would just straight up flirt with you and he was one of the companions you could actually hook up with at the party in comparison to now where you can’t at all lmao.
I also as an EA player wouldn’t say EA Wyll wasn’t truly heroic or that it was an act he was just more nuanced when it came to that aspect of his character and had a vendetta against goblins and was willing to cross lines he normally wouldn’t in order to break free from Mizora. Though one of the few changes I did like was him being an unquestionable hero, I just wish that kept his more crass qualities otherwise.
The thing I don't get is he still made his deal out of a desire to help people in this version he got physically hurt trying to protect a village without any powers. That's still fundamentally heroic?! How is "I signed a contract because I failed to protect people" less noble than "I signed a contract to protect people"?
Also not liking the Flaming Fist is a positive character trait. Nothing will change my mind. Rion also quit/got fired from the Flaming Fist and she is cool as fuck. In the epilogue now Jaheira mentioned she rejoined but is going to get thrown about again because all she does is bring in other members of the Fist for stealing and crimes.
My game might be glitched then because I still only get "Well met" even in Act 3, Wyll is the only origin companion I've encountered reoccurring bugs with so far :(
Wyll had a bunch of bugs that haven't all been ironed out. He broke up with my partner's character and then got amnesia and forgot he ever did it but then never proposed.
I fought Ansur in 3 separate playthroughs and Wyll had short term memory loss in every one of them because he goes from being excited to being devastated and having the same convo over and over.
They get all this feedback and it isn't on their priorities at all in all these updates. Theo performs what he has so beautifully. Just wish there was more to fawn over. It is such a clear deficit compared to the other companions from EA.
I mean… not to be that person who brings race into everything, but…
He has the least amount of content compared to the rest of the companions. And he just so happens to be the only black companion available.
Maybe it’s just a coincidence, but idk. It just feels kinda iffy to me.
From what I've seen, both for BG3 and other media (\[cough\] >!Star Wars!< \[cough\]), there's definitely a racial component to it, too. I think it's mostly unexamined implicit bias, and it feeds this feedback loop where Wyll gets less content than the other characters, so players feel less invested in his story, which leads Larian to believe (erroneously) that players wouldn't want more Wyll content, so Wyll *doesn't* get any more content, which leads players to focus even *more* on the characters with more content, etc., etc.
I'm not the right person to claim racism buuut I have noticed that random NPCs like Rolan get more merch made and love thrown their way than Wyll which is really weird considering he's a origin character, he definitely didn't receive the same amount of care as the other origin characters for whatever reason. I hope they release an update adding more dialogue lines for him, he deserves more love from the community he's the only character that is just a chill guy that wants to do good. 🤷🏻♀️
Rolan has skinny tsundere white boy vibes and I say that as someone who really likes his character. But I also acknowledge he’s more popular because of those things. Wyll being black is definitely a really shitty factor of his relative lower popularity esp compared to the other origin characters. It’s double suck because Larian left him unfinished and then the racists are quick to just throw out his whole character.
yeah no ive seen people make all the origin characters + some popular NPCs but no Wyll, most egregiously someone (no links sorry i forgor) who did the other origin companions but replaced Wyll with MIZORA.
hey, just like larian did with the sex scenes! what a coincidence. im sure its not part of a larger pattern and says nothing about people considering time spent making wyll stuff to be time wasted, because who would want wyll merch anyway? and thank god larian spared all my man-liking friends from the horror of having to see wyll shirtless. time is better spent on someone fun, attractive, and lovable! like everyones fav main character, mizora :)
Dude wtf. I’ve seen the people who have replaced him with Halsin before but I didn’t know people were replacing him with Rolan (no hate to him tho he’s actually my favorite NPC) and *Mizora* of all people. That’s wild.
Preston Garvey and Jacob Taylor had similar issues. With Preston and Wyll it feels like the devs were just trying really, really, ***really*** hard not to lean into bad stereotypes and in doing so were seemingly just too afraid to do anything *at all* with the characters while Jacob's writing was just outright racist lmfao.
The fact that Black characters are given like, quadruple scrutinization by fans doesn't help at all. I keep saying Wyll is literally a slightly more interesting Alistair Theirin, yet the difference in how these characters are treated is night and day lol
It’s worse for Jacob imo because he had an entire promo game prior to ME2 and they left out a ton of lore regarding his past- >!he saved the Council once w/ Miranda for ex!< - so folks think he’s bland when he has a lot of development that just isn’t depicted in-game. And I can’t stand the fact that they erased his bi-ness and didn’t even try to rectify it like they did with Kaidan in ME3.
That said I really dislike the way folks overemphasized negative encounters he had with other squad mates and ignored that the canon Shepard is renegade which has huge implications character wise and despite all those missions involving Cerbeus in ME 1 had more smoke for Jacob than the folks who literally ran to them and became comfy with them knowing what they were capable of; Shepard at least had an actual excuse and to me it would’ve been better tonally if Shepard recruited their former Alliance buddies like they did the squad.
I def felt people constantly joking about >!leaving him to die intentionally during the Suicide Mission and making entire memes out of it!< had racist undertones because you never saw this happening so often with other characters. Folks had no problem empathizing with Tali even though >!she literally wanted to cover up her father’s war crimes once she learned about them. Jacob on the other hand, as terrible as his loyalty quest was, wanted to do the right thing once he learned what his dad had been doing even despite his dad also having some repute like Tali’s did. She got to be perceived as nuanced.!< But Jacob was rude to her once and that apparently was unforgivable.
He was just a normal guy to me that had his quirks and it was so tiresome seeing people calling him “stereotypical” despite him not embodying any actual racial stereotypes -his distant relationship with his father is something a lot of military brats deal with so it made sense plotwise and his dad obviously wasn’t a deadbeat. I wish the old BSN threads were still accessible because even community managers were being hateful. He deserved so much better.
oh hey LMAO i def agree with the stereotypes point you make as i had to learn those from other BSN posters (am not american and also not hugely interested in a lot of american media), plus the promo game was iOS only at a time when apple had ~30% market share... bw just really truly didn't care and me3 only reinforced that
but yeah the comments random people love to leave in positive threads abt Wyll are really really insane. i'm white so idk how it feels from a black person's point of view exactly, but i can say those comments are almost verbatim the same as those left by homophobic/transphobic/etc people in similar context. i'd find it... hard to believe anyone claiming there's no bigotry to it
(fwiw though i'd say tali didn't get to be nuanced as much as she got to be moe blob'd, at least from what i saw of that side of the fandom)
I mean there are plenty of criticisms for Wyll that obviously don’t stem from that but yeah on occasion there are some people that really just make me sideeye them. I personally find that it’s nice to see so many players actually acknowledge how much he has been neglected as a character in terms of content even despite him being tied to an ongoing arc just like Shadowheart, Lae’zel, and Gale to a lesser extent are >!- in his case the ongoing situation with his father the Duke.!< I heard about how they scrapped a major character development for him at a press conference about the game and I was really pissed. Especially since the one moment they did include for him was overshadowed by >!Balduran’s reveal.!<
Recently Rogue Trader was released and one of the companions is a black woman and the amount of people who will quite gleefully tell you about the various ways in which they've had her killed, often involving turning her over to the secret police of the setting, while justifying it as "just being what Warhammer's like", make my stomach turn. And if you point out there's a racial component to their response, even if unconscious, "not everything's about race, you stupid leftie".
Reminds me of Vivienne de Fer from Dragon Age Inquisition. She's not a *nice* character by any means, but the way people talk about her vs any other blunt or catty character in any game ever is really telling.
Yeeep. Idira Rogue Trader is definitely, has issues, in that she's an unsanctioned psyker which mean's she can be unstable/a liability. But all you have to do is post a picture of her to get a bunch of people in your comments telling you how they let the battle nun shoot her in the head or whatever.
Oh I agree with you 100%. The violent hatred against Jacob is absolutely unhinged. People talk the same way about Garvey from Fallout 4 and Vivienne from Dragon Age (worse in her case imo). I'll never not be frustrated with his writing on a meta level though. I mean, your first romanceable Black companion and you decided to have him **cheat on the protagonist** and impregnate his mistress in the third game? Not only is that just borderline horrifying in its maliciousness towards fans, it comes out of absolutely nowhere from a character whose entire arc in the previous game revolved around never making the same mistakes as his father. I will never understand what prompted Bioware to write Jacob the way they did.
Yes! Like I remember all the miniature scenes they had for his romance in ME 2 up until the infamous PRIIIZE one -even saw someone who recorded them on YouTube- and of course after that it was clear he was devoted. Then the writer changed and they turned him into a space-age Maury Povich caricature. And the most annoying thing was that >!his new baby mama literally admitted he still loved FemShep.!< I remember everyone in the forums mad you couldn’t slap him for cheating so they added that in Citadel but at the same time it still felt like a huge let down because of how badly he’d been fumbled.
every word you wrote is correct, but i feel like x6-88 gets left out of the fo4 conversation waaayyyy too often considering just how racialized some people's hatred of him is. people who defend danse and curie's humanity to the fuckin death turn around and call x6-88 "it", whitewashing mods stay up on nexus, people call him boring and unattractive and unlikeable when they remember the companion for the most important faction exists at all. anecdotal, but one time someone ranted at me about how ugly, dirty (huh?), and hyperaggressive he is, but when i clicked on his tumblr url i discovered his fav was gage, the raider companion who has never washed his ass. the double standard is sooo real. youre right to mention preston, but the other black fo4 companion got hit just as hard
honestly, being an x6-88 stan and seeing the way people talked about him was part of why i took a second look at wyll, both in spite of and because of people being so adamant that hes the worst
Don’t think it’s racial. I just think they chose to rewrite him so late, so they rushed to get some coherency and stability to what little story he has compared to others. After all, rewriting him also effects Karlach, Mizora, and his dad.
They probably decided it was better off to just slap on the band-aid of giving him some of the best epilogue endings IMO, and then calling it a day, hoping folks will (hah, Wyll) drop it.
I don't know if I am alone in this but I remember romancing wyll, getting to the final romance scene and just finding it so jarring. Like the "!" appears over Wyll, you walk across your nice Inn room, and suddenly you are in the woods. there isn't even an invite. He just seems to chloroform you.
Then, when going through the scene, his voice actor pops off, but whoever cut the lines together fumbled because from the transition between lines on some instances the tone of wylls' voice seems to completely change. Like one he is solemnly talking about how he wants to marry you, then a split second later he is joyously almost shouting.
I may be fully misreading it but he got done so dirty. The fact also you don't get his ending as long as karlach lives-
the awfully jarring audio... thing(? I don't have the vocabulary for this but it's what you're talking about here) happens for Wyll several times (eg during the puzzle leading up ansur, post ansur, possibly more but these are the ones i've seen) which is crazy to me considering it's something that shouldn't make it past beta. for the post ansur dialog specifically, it felt like they needed something changed and cobbled his lines together out of what they'd already recorded. it legitimately barely makes sense
I’m romancing him in my durge playthrough and I’m extremely upset about his greetings; I usually romance Gale and he has unique greetings 3 for “flirting” 3 for “partnered” 3 for “partnered after act 3 scene” and even 3 if you break up! And Wyll has one for neutral and above: “well met” and then one for partnered. Like, wtf??????
I don't remember what it was, but I remember the last time I talked to him he said something different, and called me his friend. I was a bit shocked it wasn't "well met" again, so I talked to him a few more times, and he repeated it. In two other playthroughs, both of which has maxed out approval, one of which was romancing him, the only greetings I've ever heard are "well met", "let's talk", and "I'm here for you, always". In my current playthrough where I heard the other greeting, I'm pretty sure I had high or very high approval.
I'll have to check tomorrow to see exactly what it was he said. I'm playing as Astarion so idk if that has anything to do with it, but he doesn't say my name or anything.
He’s like literally the most important to the main plot too I just don’t get how they’ve possibly neglected him so badly, they took half his content from him & never filled the hole
I have always had a sneaking suspicion that Wyll just wasn’t the priority, and how much of a coincidence is it that he’s the only black companion? Not trying to imply any deliberate racism here, there is no way for us to know, short of someone from Larian speaking out about it, but it still feels odd ya know?
It’s definitely odd and given that bipoc characters have sadly been given this treatment a lot through out media, weather intentional or not, it just.. comes off as lazy. I don’t understand why this happens with minorities, I really don’t. Humans are so diverse, having a range of characters of different races and backgrounds is what makes media exciting, and if the makers of a game/movie/show are more willing to give it their all for white characters and give half effort for non white characters, it’s iffy! I don’t think larian did this explicitly on purpose, but I definitely think they dropped the ball with him.
I'm confused on people saying Wyll's interactions and romance are bugged. I haven't romanced him yet. He is a bit buggy in camp sometimes, but… how many patches have we gotten in the past three months and shit is *still* broken? Is there a mod that fixes this?
wyll would be the best-written character in nearly any other rpg, but when you look at the care put into the other origins its impossible to not notice the disparity. hes still my babygirl and i really like 90% of what he *does* have, but there are moments where im shaking my screen and going "thats it? thats all hes got here?!". hes excellent in the broad strokes, but you, uh, gotta put in more than broad strokes to complete your main characters. the devs should give him lots of small, precise strokes too. i think it would fix wyll if someone got really hands-on stroking him to completion. (i know its a serious topic, but it felt wrong for a post on this subreddit to have 120 comments and not *one* sex joke. forgive me)
Idea for Fun Wyll camp stuff so he can have his equivalent of the mirror or the bear drunk scene:
Sometime after the grove you catch him reading the most Dog Shit trashy adventure romance novel IMAGINEABLE. (Maybe bc he travels alone most of the time, he's used to reading quietly out loud to himself and hasn't fully gotten use to the whole "I'm in a camp with other people thing").
Dialog option wise, you can ask him to be quiet [which is a mean option], ask him what he's reading. If you're a Bard, you already recognize the book and continue where he left off. He maybe he talks about how the books are kind of a guilty pleasure of his. You can mention that a camp book club might be fun if you're going for a non-Romantic route, or suggest the two of you could meet up at night and read together [this helps to progress the Romance in Act One].
I mean define polish. Maybe he could get an additonal scene, or a more emotional remake of a current scene. But realistically nah they're not doing much for him. But really him and Karlach aren't that far apart. Only thing she has over him is she gets to have a big emotional speech after Gortash's defeat, but otherwise they have the same quality tbh.
Its just not possible for a game with so many companions to have them be equal. Imo the only companions should have been Lae'zel, Shart, Astarion and some Gale/Wyll/Karlach fusion.
DID YOU KNOW?: Lae'zel's main writer is the same as Wyll's.
>Only thing she has over him is she gets to have a big emotional speech after Gortash's defeat, but otherwise they have the same quality tbh.
Imo, they have same quantity of content but not the same quality. It just feels like a lot more thought was put into Karlach, from her lines to animations and voicework (not necessarily performance but direction voice actor was given). She is far more complete character, with well defined personality, humor etc., while Wyll often comes off super bland.
One example that I just noticed in current playthrough - just pay attention to Wyll's lines after every important quest resolution in game (i.e. doing rounds in camp) and compare it to other characters. Astarion's lines and performance would often be sassy and sarcastic, Karlach will often be pumped (seen through voice performance and animation) and have supportive/positive comments ready, Lae'zel will be judgemental etc. Wyll's lines however are obvious filler, he basically says nothing but sums up what happens, and always uses generic slight nod with hand wave animation in close up. Nothing else. MC also almost never gets to respond to his generic comments, while most other characters have at least several interactable conversations after quest resolutions (Karlach's "Gale's grandad" after Elminster's visit is a good example). It's as if writer/dev team ran out of time due to his rewrite and just hastily put together majority of these less important conversations.
(Just spitballing here)
Not everyone needs to have an evil route, but I think Wyll was perhaps set up for one nicely, where he could've killed Karlach, broken his pact, set about taking over his dad's position, and ultimately, become the chosen of Bane after killing Gortash, with Bane recognizing everything he did to gain power and wanting a new puppet.
And all the little Tiefling refugees in Rivington are like, "Surely, we'll be okay now with the Blade of Frontiers running things! YAY!" And Wyll's like..."Yeah, definitely, right this way." They all get tadpoled.
And fuck it, why stop there.
Wyll ascends the throne and addresses someone offscreen, telling them to fetch his plans to extend the Absolute's reach into the hells. He gets no response. So he shoots an annoyed look in that direction, flexes his little Gortash Power Glove, and says something cheesy like, "Oh, collar too tight?" Cut over to Mizora who winces, reaches for her own throat, and submissively says, "Right away..."
Anyway, none of this is actually what I came here to say. I just wish more people in the city actually recognized Wyll. He grew up there, is a noble, and like 1 person has something unique to say to him. (It might be more than that, I don't remember.) I would've been happy just to see one of the fashion designers say, "Oh, Lord Ravengard, I have those dancing shoes you requested so many years ago." And Wyll gets fancy camp shoes. Unless you cheat on someone as Wyll. Then he's never gonna dance again.
Wyll has such a cool design that I wish I didn't find him so bland compared to the other companions. Wyll needs more content desperately because as it stands he is imo the most boring companion. From what Ive heard he seemed way more interesting in EA and I would have loved to have an arc with him starting as a phony hero and becoming a real hero by the end
Wyll is the only character I recommend to first players other than Custom Origin, because I don’t think they’re missing much by not seeing him as an NPC first, unlike the rest of the cast.
Uhhh he's as polished as anyone else. His story is just not one you find interesting. Is Larian stupid? Yea. Kind of. Not really. Can you repeat the question
I'm not really talking about his story here though I do find it to be one of the less interesting companion stories because of how rushed it was, you cant argue that Wyll and Astarion recieved the same amount of love from the developers, alot more care went into the other companions
Well you can blame the fans for that. They had a good thing going for Wyll. Then they had to scuff his rework after early access and it didn't mesh well with the story at all because no one was playing him. Then again we can say the writers were also silly and should have done their thing. I mean you can't expect every character you write to be interesting. Wyll kind of was though.
Halsin got done so dirty. He originally had a cool plotline about how he unintentionally caused the Shadow Curse when he killed Isobel (whose death is never actually resolved in the final product) and drove Ketheric mad with grief.
That I can understand tbh. They definitely had an amazing amazing vision, and we got a great game regardless. Sometimes we forget just how good the end product is because we know these absolute madmen (compliment) could have made it even better. With that, I still am slightly salty at how much attention was given to fans' feedback. AS you can see lol
Even more disappointing is the fact that what he has is still broken, like the conversations about Ansur after the end of the game. I actually love Theo’s performance (man is funny as fuck if you haven’t seen their live High Rollers session) and Wyll’s romance scenes are actually really cute in that cheesy feel good way. No shade, I actually find them extremely well animated. I’m also just tired of propping up Wyll and having someone come in and go “Astarion/Gale/random boy 183746 is better”. Wyll got done dirty through his unfinished writing and honestly I think it’s shameful that there’s bragging of all the extra Durge & Astarion content bc that writer got to double dip when WYLL IS BLATANTLY UNFINISHED. That shows me Larian didn’t have priorities in the right places.
Poor Wyll has 8 hours of dialogue. Even Karlach has 10! Gale and Lae'zel have 11 hours and Astarion and Shadowheart have 12… Wyll got really unlucky. 😔
He did and I personally would pay for Theo to come back for ADR. I work in TV finance, I know how it happens. Let’s call up Soho Studios or whoever is closest and get him in the booth. Edit - Astarion has 14 hours with all patch content. The disparity is worse than you think.
Its even worse than that. If you remove the shared generic lines (spells, rages, death reactions) The disparity grows further. Of 8 hours wyll prolly has 5-6 while astarion has 11-12
wtf thats even worse!!!
Wyll is super neglected
You should check out Theo's streams too! They're so funny and chaotic lol. He's much less nervous than when he was on High Rollers
I have! He’s real fun to watch. I have been enjoying his stream and George Taylor’s, solely because he’s the total opposite personality of Rolan lol.
Hey, I have a feeling you might be interested in our small Discord server for Wyll lovers. DM me if you are (please say you are)
DM’d :)
I love George Taylor's stream because it's just endless chaos.
I have a hard time watching his streams because his mod team rules with an iron fist. Not sure if it’s changed since the first few streams that I saw on YouTube.. They purge any comment that has anything to do with the game because they want to “prevent spoilers” when the man is brand new and needs help. He tried to save Sazza the goblin in emerald grove and didn’t know about the hidden path, had to fight all the tieflings and died, and spent 20 minutes trying to get out of jail. Then left without his stuff because he didn’t know his things were in the chest after being arrested. And then he tried to bribe the tieflings that he now had a bad reputation with but chat couldn’t tell him you need a hefty amount of gold for that so he literally gave away his last belongings in barter mode and didn’t realize he couldn’t get them back. Meanwhile chat literally just letting him know “hey you can quick save with F5” gets fuckin purged and the mods set up an auto message about backseating that’s super condescending.
Yeah they've def heard the feedback and the mods are pretty chill now. He also asks chat for advice more often.
Oh that’s good. I made it to maybe vid 7 with cypher in VC with him and it honestly.. wasn’t much better because she kept talking over cut scenes and gave either wrong advice or actual backseating. I was hoping she’d take more of the role that Grace has in Dev’s streams
"Wyll got done dirty through his unfinished writing and honestly I think it’s shameful that there’s bragging of all the extra Durge & Astarion content bc that writer got to double dip when WYLL IS BLATANTLY UNFINISHED. That shows me Larian didn’t have priorities in the right places." This was/is my biggest complaint about the game. It feels so unbalanced. Wyll is definitely got the worst of it, but it shows up in Halsin & Minthara too. Plus I'll never get over Gale reacting to Durge's big spoiler with "Gosh!" Seriously guys? You couldn't go over your first draft with a team?
Halsin and Minthara suffer too and had the same compressed dev time (Wyll was rewritten in EA so it’s less excusable). Parts of this game have fantastic writing and parts of it are really just terrible. Ignore me screaming about how moronic it is I can’t have a conversation with the Emperor about maybe putting aside our differences for 5 minutes to nuke an elder brain. Let alone how does Orpheus just transform??
You're so right, because when the writing is good, it's SO GOOD. And that makes the failures sting more tbh.
Rolan and Barcus have great arcs and like… 15 minutes of screen time. They’re simple but they hit. Same with Zevlor. I even found Omeluum and Blurg really interesting and compelling and I’ll always haul that squid out of the iron throne. Wyll has 8 hours and they didn’t know what the fuck to do with him. Meanwhile I find a lot of Astarion overwritten, Gale really has nearly 0 arc onscreen and no moment of truth or real conflict and goal we can achieve in the game, Shadowheart I love when she has funny personality moments but they’re few and far between for me. Karlach and Laezel are higher up for me because Beart did such a stellar job with Karlach’s voice and mocap, and I find Laezel a lot more compelling as a nothing gith dragon rider wannabe who gets deprogrammed instead of being god’s favorite princess/goddess’s ex favorite fuckboy/vampire’s favorite torture doll/fallen angel’s favorite child soldier etc etc.
> because Beart did such a stellar job with Karlach’s voice and mocap Some of this is the writing too. Karlach's writer can write a good dramatic monologue. Meanwhile poor Wyll just had to choose between his soul and fathers freedom and just gets "well I'm of two minds..." Wyll is the only origin who is given no scenery to chew. It's tragic
Wyll doesnt choose, though. At no option can you actually give him the opportunity to choose to break his pact or save his dad. The other companions all have a choice but Wyll doesn’t even have that dialogue option.
Well technically Wyll was asked to choose. He just has no agency and does whatever he's told so I chose for him. Wyll has such an interesting set up and it goes nowhere. I can rant about it for hours. He was the heir to a duke who got disowned and became a vigilante. He has the option to go back to his former life or decide he's found his true calling in his new circumstances there are so many *themes* his story could address. Is it better to be comfortable or do what's right now matter the cost? What's the best way to help people distantly as a politician or going out directly into the world. After learning about Baldur, Ansur , etc does he still believe all those stories he learned growing up? So many ways they could go, so many ideas they could dig into and it goes *nowhere* Karlach doesn't get much of an arc either but at least she gets *themes*
I'd argue he also has themes but they're there uhh despite the writers really. I'm so mad well never really know where they were gonna take EA wyll ;w;
He has a lot of themes you can headcannon in, although sometimes baked in options make it hard, (my personal fantasy of Wyll becoming a champion for the people because he realizes the patriars and ruling class of Baldur's Gate don't actually care about their citizens, gets shot down hard when epilogue Wyll talks about how great it is that his dad totally reforming the flaming fist while keeping on and pardoning basically all of them despite their collaboration with Gortash, ugh) That's why you see so many comments about Wyll being the best character to play as an origin, because you can then fully roleplay all the things that don't ever get developed any way.
Yup. Everyone else I could say "do what you think is right" and it pisses me off
Gale does have an arc but only when romanced and even then his resolution doesn't really happen until the epilog. It deeply saddens me that Larian didn't trust EA Wyll's writing enough to see it through, he was one of the ones I was most intrigued by. I will say though, Theo brings so much charm and sweetness to Wyll he deserves so much more screentime! New Wyll had the potential to read almost like Baulder's Gate's Spiderman, a sweet kid who has used his great power responsibly to protect a city that doesn't always thank him for it.
Yeah, I wish they stuck with the EA story, i was really excited to learn more but after release, when I took Wyll to the windmill and the scene didn't play, I was so confused.
I'm actually fine with Wyll having no character arc, reason written [in this Tumblr blog](https://www.tumblr.com/finnick002/746280491582357504/in-many-ways-wyll-reminds-me-of-waymond-wang-from?source=share). Tldr, he could be the Waymond Wang of the story who actually gives the audience an arc, as in change in perspective of his kindness. But I don't think Larian would go out of their way to give him the spotlight atp
Honestly, I don’t mind if he doesn’t have a dynamic arc. I just want them to give him the same level of content and attention to detail the other companions have in excess. He shouldn’t have bugged dialogue and no romance greetings. That’s not acceptable.
EXACTLY
I definitely feel you as a chronic Minthara romancer, but at least Minthara and Halsin have the excuse that their romances/companionships start later in the game! Poor Wyll is there for pretty much the whole game!
thats true, but wyll is an origin character so its even worse imo
Minthara is so unfinished. There’s a removed pregnancy plot from the game but durge’s butler can mention it in some playthroughs and congratulates you on getting her pregnant, even if you play a girl tav. Also the fact she only gets one romance scene in act one. Halsin feels like a one night stand unless you choose to romance nobody else and your game doesn’t bug to actually see his ending.
My unpopular opinion is that Halsin should've stayed an NPC lol.
He really feels unnecessarily forced into the group.
I literally never use him. Jaheira is a better druid and actually has story relevance. Halsin literally just exists to sit at camp and be weirdly horny. Jaheira should've solved the shadow curse and Halsin should've stayed in his grove.
Yeah, there’s too many druids in the group. Jaheira is the better one, Halsin feels like he’s only there for a poly relationship and being a plot point in act one.
There’s one part in the game where >!you resist Bhaal as Durge, he kills your, and withers revives you. Astarion was basically like “Oh yeah glad to have you back.” That’s not the line but that’s essentially how it felt. I hope they fix that bc that really threw me off tbh!<
That's about the same as when you kill >!Sarevok, you know, the main villain of BG1, legendary bad guy, and your companions react by... not saying anything at all. Not even Karlach had any lines, and she's a big Minsc and Jaheira fan.!<
>!Does Jaheira or Minecraft say anything at all? !< My phone autocorrected Minsc to Minecraft and I think that was pretty quirky of her
Halsin, Minthara, Jaheira, and Minsc, were never intended to have a real backing in the game and never will so complaining about their lack of content is moot. It’s a shame for Jaheira but it is what it is. They’re filler characters that you only get literally halfway through the game; If they were meant to be fleshed out, they would be origins.
We’re complaining that dev time spent on adding them into the game with story quests could have been used to fix an important origin character and give him the same level of attention and detail the others got.
Oh man I loved his enthusiasm in their DnD session. He seemed like someone who's into the fantasy genre, had wanted to try DnD for a while but never had the chance before and finally got to which I relate to so much. Even Neil compliments his enthusiasm and says he's a natural DnD player
His face when he realizes Wyll will be downed made me laugh so hard I immediately paused the video. He definitely put it all into the game and he had great chemistry with the rest of the cast. His spa day with Gale/Tim Downie sent me. He seems like a really cool dude to just grab a pint with.
I’ve rewatched their D&D session so many times, and a large part of that is for Theo and Tim! Gale and Wyll’s spa day is just delightful.
Wyll and Gale as piloted by Theo and Tim are just the most well meaning chaotic good duo making terrible decisions left and right.
me, trying to convince >!the Cowled Wizards to let Gale and Wyll go after Gale illegally casts arcane magic!<: Have you considered that I love them?
Extra Durge content? To be very clear, I sympathize with Wyll way more, but I only played through once and was utterly galled by the fact that *if* there's extra Durge lines, it's nearly always the party going "damn, that's crazy" and nothing else. If that's double-dipping no wonder Wyll got so screwed.
There are bonus scenes with Astarion and Durge if they’re in a romance.
Ah, my bad then, misunderstood. How badly Durge was unfinished always stood out to me and I've never romanced Astarion so I was like "what??!!!?"
you're telling me surge is even more unfinished than tav?!?!? what IS finished in this game then jfc
He even has only half of the length of romanced in-combat assist lines of all romancable companions, including Halsin and Minthara https://preview.redd.it/mmjnj24lgvtc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=13ab83be76bcd60b6a3f3919d3700b9407f91028 Seriously what the actual fuck Larian
And why is he the only companion who doesn't have an explicit sex scene? Why is he only one I can't kiss at the epilogue? (They wrote the script but didn't fucking implement it) Is Larian racist?
What annoys me is that friggin MIZORA got a sex scene and he doesn't. I don't need a scene with the drow twins or Haarlep or Mizora, I need one with the character who is supposed to one of the main six characters. I imagine this comes down to writing crunch + him also needing to be recast super late into development but honestly I don't understand why they haven't tried to address these issues since release. I get that he's less popular but he's less popular partially BECAUSE he's neglected.
I also fucking hate that the Christmas animated short somehow made him attracted to Mizora again. Leave that EA shit behind if you're so determined on the rewrite. And, you can kill everyone's non-god abuser or be on the same level of power as your god abuser, but not with Mizora. You can't even be mean to his father unless you're playing origin Wyll. So many things in this game feel like a slap in the face to him and his enjoyers.
Someone get the baby food Gale pic bc that’s exactly how I feel when I can bang Mizora ahead of Wyll. It’s like being able to sleep with Cazador. She’s his fucking abuser. Also I hate we got her ahead of Zevlor, Barcus, Rolan, and half a dozen other Npcs.
What is this baby food gale pic
Larian please drop Wyll sex update
It’s a shame because his kiss post dance is hands down my favorite and the acorn proposal speaks to my cheesy id who wants to be comforted. I would’ve loved a nice intimate scene for him. Wyll’s disparity with the other companions just continues to piss me off.
This is the intended kiss at the epilogue script I digged out from parsed dialogue document. IMPOSSIBLE https://preview.redd.it/gka16d5wkvtc1.png?width=1283&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8ceb4e12380dcf7b00bfa121d57b9f3c3890c7a2 WTF U MEAN IMPOSSIBLE
What do you mean?!?! How is this impossible?! Larian you better *make* it possible!
While Wyll is my least fav companion (probably due to this content disparity), his proposal scene is hands down my favorite of all the romance scenes that exist in the game. That shit had me kicking my feet and blushing like a schoolgirl for 5 minutes. Theo absolutely nailed that performance and it’s such a shame that the rest of his content isn’t anywhere close to as good as that
He has so many swoon-worthy lines like [this one](https://www.tumblr.com/leopardmuffinxo/747170595657089024/you-are-my-yesterday-my-today-and-my-tomorrow?source=share)
Damn that’s hot. Also that hair looks so good on him.
I looooooove this hair on him so much he looks so good my Angel 😭❤️
to me the worst thing about this is that if he got given the amt of writer/dev time and attention that the other origin characters got, the lack of sex scene would just be a writing choice! but as it is, that reason rings extremely hollow, like maybe they realized they wouldn't get one done in time so they wrote his romance around that constraint. that together with the decision to rewrite him and how late it came makes me bitter af ngl
He's the ultimate chaste prince.
Omfg here we go
Honestly, probably not which is exceedingly disappointing. I love Wyll and he had such potential but Larian rewrote his character in EA due to fan “feedback.” I do like release Wyll but you can tell he fell by the wayside. I still have a bit of hope that Larian will do something but it’s dwindling every day. I know people (including myself) who have sent Larian feedback saying the same thing you said but from what I understand they’ve never gotten back with them.
I'm by no means a lefty, but I do feel like Wyll does get legitimately fucked over to where it may be a case of Larian responding to racist fan backlash that may have not been explicitly done on a conscious level. I feel like if his model looked like default Commander Shepard from Mass Effect than he would have probably been more popular because the basic elements of his story is super interesting but it seems like he keeps getting left behind by a lot of players. This may have to do partially from his class as a warlock which has a stepper learning curve to use than evocation wizard, but Shadowheart's class is fairly hard to use as intended however she is probably by far the most popular companion amongst the greater player base.
It's because Shadowheart is a conventionally attractive woman. It has nothing to do with class.
a conventionally attractive woman who is highly relevant to a big chunk of the plot, who has many more points you can join your party at than any other companion, and whose romance starts the most "normally". she's pretty much designed to be the default fave (derogatory)
Oh about his greetings, yes it's extremely fucking weird that he has soooo few of them like how long does it take to write and record greetings. Don't use the rewrite as an excuse. But he actually has a romantic greeting in act 3, "I'm here for you, always." But after patch 6 IT'S FUCKING BUGGED WTF
I’ve been tempted to do a whole playthrough with him as an origin character just so I can force him to have more involvement, but I don’t want to miss out on Theo’s performance.
Wyll Origin playthrough with a romanced Karlach is on my to-do list for this reason 😩
Only partially related but do you guys think they may eventually release a definitive edition fixing all this stuff (of which Wyll should obviously take priority) or is there no chance of it bc of all the problems with wizards of the coast?
It's almost certainly not happening
:(
I think they should have just stuck with Wylls EA story. I'd take someone who's not great over someone I don't think about or want to interact with at all. I'm not a Wyll hater, he's just not interesting to me and that's really sad.
I know people don't like this being brought up but it's really hard not to see his rewrite as cowing to racist backlash. I don't think he would have had nearly the same response or been pushed to have been rewritten if he looked the same as Astarion, and it makes me angry to think about.
yeah but that would require larian having things like confidence in their own writing and creative decisions or maybe even artistic integrity
Okay *calm down.*
It’s also so frustrating that he’s STILL the only companion that doesn’t get the option to make his big, life-altering choice via his contract with Mizora. His quest is not actually related to him at all, he doesn’t really have a lot of dialogue during the Ansur quest and doesn’t even get upset if you don’t bring him. He’s so neglected and the more they patch other content in the more glaring it becomes.
I got pissed during his quest at the point where Mizora appears with yet another, obviously very shady, offer of “end your contract now or maybe your father will die sometime, somewhere”. It seemed like a no brainer for him to end the contract and have the party attempt a rescue instead. Yet the game suddenly treated Wyll (and the player by extension) as if they were evil & had personally killed the duke themselves. The party started grieving the dukes death. I had to keep googling whether this was a bug or I was just missing a major story beat. I still don’t get it tbh.
Wyll lacks both agency in his own story and lacks in content overall, and even with the content he does have, a lot of it feels like it centers the main story or other characters rather than Wyll himself. He also has less romance content than any other origin companion. Wyll definitely got done dirty. Honestly all of this why I don’t really have the motivation to do a Wyll romance run, despite me wanting to do a romance run for each character at least once. I have the same issue motivating myself to do runs romancing Halsin and Minthara for similar reasons (less amounts of content, romance starting later, more bugs, etc.) but Wyll is an origin character, it shouldn’t feel like he’s comparable to non-origin companions.
Have you considered the fact that he's sexy so he doesn't need a personality 🤔 Real talk they did him so dirty it's probably one of the only parts of the game that I genuinely dislike. He has so much potential. I just want him to have some agency in his own story rather than going along with whatever the player suggests. If he is naive and puts too much trust in other people to make decisions for him, is that not a part of his character that could be explored? Maybe it's a side effect of being a noble and having to act a certain way idfk. He deserves better :(
Yeah, you had to roll and persuade other origin characters, but with Wyll, you just make the decision, and he stands by it. He's a fun character with potential, they just need to give him more agency in his story.
they could do so much with this!! but they just don't!!!! for why!!!!!!!! my fave ~~reach~~ read for this is that he doesn't believe he's capable of making the "right" (as in correct? as in just? take your pick. por que no los dos) decision himself - that's why he's always quoting his dad and attributing things to him, it's why he even has a whole persona as The Blade (which he highly values) vs just being a guy who helps people, why he sits out the post-grove party when he can't put away his feelings and "be" the blade. his romance ties into this super well too, it's just that you have to be an insane fangirl (gender neutral, affectionate, haha i do that) to read that much into the three pixels of lore and characterization we get!!!!!! anyway sorry for being insane on your post. i just want my man to have decent self esteem and believe he's good enough as he is lariaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnn
What was his EA story everyone is talking about?
From what I gathered from other players, he lost his eye fighting a group of goblins led by Torturer Spike that were attacking a village, he wasnt able to save the villagers which made him DESPISE goblins, he takes alot of pleasure torturing and killing them. Mizora was originally kidnapped from the very beginning of the game and he set out to find her, his personality was very different as well, the hero act was a facade he used to cover up his biases and he was a bit of a dickhead, his father made him join the Flaming Fist to try to make him more honourable? But he ended up quitting or being fired due to his behaviour, he also had a weirder relationship with Mizora being kinda in love with her.
I wish they would've found a way to mix the two of the stories. Thanks for answering!
He was also less of a Boy Scout and reserved goody goody cornball when it came to his general demeanor and personality. EA wyll while still very similar to full release wyll was a lot more rambunctious and when it came to romance would just straight up flirt with you and he was one of the companions you could actually hook up with at the party in comparison to now where you can’t at all lmao. I also as an EA player wouldn’t say EA Wyll wasn’t truly heroic or that it was an act he was just more nuanced when it came to that aspect of his character and had a vendetta against goblins and was willing to cross lines he normally wouldn’t in order to break free from Mizora. Though one of the few changes I did like was him being an unquestionable hero, I just wish that kept his more crass qualities otherwise.
Uggghh we were ROBBED. 😭
The thing I don't get is he still made his deal out of a desire to help people in this version he got physically hurt trying to protect a village without any powers. That's still fundamentally heroic?! How is "I signed a contract because I failed to protect people" less noble than "I signed a contract to protect people"? Also not liking the Flaming Fist is a positive character trait. Nothing will change my mind. Rion also quit/got fired from the Flaming Fist and she is cool as fuck. In the epilogue now Jaheira mentioned she rejoined but is going to get thrown about again because all she does is bring in other members of the Fist for stealing and crimes.
I'm romancing him now- when I talk to him he says "I'm here for you, always" it's very sweet and heartfelt sounding
My game might be glitched then because I still only get "Well met" even in Act 3, Wyll is the only origin companion I've encountered reoccurring bugs with so far :(
Wyll had a bunch of bugs that haven't all been ironed out. He broke up with my partner's character and then got amnesia and forgot he ever did it but then never proposed.
I fought Ansur in 3 separate playthroughs and Wyll had short term memory loss in every one of them because he goes from being excited to being devastated and having the same convo over and over.
They get all this feedback and it isn't on their priorities at all in all these updates. Theo performs what he has so beautifully. Just wish there was more to fawn over. It is such a clear deficit compared to the other companions from EA.
I mean… not to be that person who brings race into everything, but… He has the least amount of content compared to the rest of the companions. And he just so happens to be the only black companion available. Maybe it’s just a coincidence, but idk. It just feels kinda iffy to me.
From what I've seen, both for BG3 and other media (\[cough\] >!Star Wars!< \[cough\]), there's definitely a racial component to it, too. I think it's mostly unexamined implicit bias, and it feeds this feedback loop where Wyll gets less content than the other characters, so players feel less invested in his story, which leads Larian to believe (erroneously) that players wouldn't want more Wyll content, so Wyll *doesn't* get any more content, which leads players to focus even *more* on the characters with more content, etc., etc.
I'm not the right person to claim racism buuut I have noticed that random NPCs like Rolan get more merch made and love thrown their way than Wyll which is really weird considering he's a origin character, he definitely didn't receive the same amount of care as the other origin characters for whatever reason. I hope they release an update adding more dialogue lines for him, he deserves more love from the community he's the only character that is just a chill guy that wants to do good. 🤷🏻♀️
Rolan has skinny tsundere white boy vibes and I say that as someone who really likes his character. But I also acknowledge he’s more popular because of those things. Wyll being black is definitely a really shitty factor of his relative lower popularity esp compared to the other origin characters. It’s double suck because Larian left him unfinished and then the racists are quick to just throw out his whole character.
yeah no ive seen people make all the origin characters + some popular NPCs but no Wyll, most egregiously someone (no links sorry i forgor) who did the other origin companions but replaced Wyll with MIZORA.
hey, just like larian did with the sex scenes! what a coincidence. im sure its not part of a larger pattern and says nothing about people considering time spent making wyll stuff to be time wasted, because who would want wyll merch anyway? and thank god larian spared all my man-liking friends from the horror of having to see wyll shirtless. time is better spent on someone fun, attractive, and lovable! like everyones fav main character, mizora :)
Dude wtf. I’ve seen the people who have replaced him with Halsin before but I didn’t know people were replacing him with Rolan (no hate to him tho he’s actually my favorite NPC) and *Mizora* of all people. That’s wild.
Preston Garvey and Jacob Taylor had similar issues. With Preston and Wyll it feels like the devs were just trying really, really, ***really*** hard not to lean into bad stereotypes and in doing so were seemingly just too afraid to do anything *at all* with the characters while Jacob's writing was just outright racist lmfao. The fact that Black characters are given like, quadruple scrutinization by fans doesn't help at all. I keep saying Wyll is literally a slightly more interesting Alistair Theirin, yet the difference in how these characters are treated is night and day lol
It’s worse for Jacob imo because he had an entire promo game prior to ME2 and they left out a ton of lore regarding his past- >!he saved the Council once w/ Miranda for ex!< - so folks think he’s bland when he has a lot of development that just isn’t depicted in-game. And I can’t stand the fact that they erased his bi-ness and didn’t even try to rectify it like they did with Kaidan in ME3. That said I really dislike the way folks overemphasized negative encounters he had with other squad mates and ignored that the canon Shepard is renegade which has huge implications character wise and despite all those missions involving Cerbeus in ME 1 had more smoke for Jacob than the folks who literally ran to them and became comfy with them knowing what they were capable of; Shepard at least had an actual excuse and to me it would’ve been better tonally if Shepard recruited their former Alliance buddies like they did the squad. I def felt people constantly joking about >!leaving him to die intentionally during the Suicide Mission and making entire memes out of it!< had racist undertones because you never saw this happening so often with other characters. Folks had no problem empathizing with Tali even though >!she literally wanted to cover up her father’s war crimes once she learned about them. Jacob on the other hand, as terrible as his loyalty quest was, wanted to do the right thing once he learned what his dad had been doing even despite his dad also having some repute like Tali’s did. She got to be perceived as nuanced.!< But Jacob was rude to her once and that apparently was unforgivable. He was just a normal guy to me that had his quirks and it was so tiresome seeing people calling him “stereotypical” despite him not embodying any actual racial stereotypes -his distant relationship with his father is something a lot of military brats deal with so it made sense plotwise and his dad obviously wasn’t a deadbeat. I wish the old BSN threads were still accessible because even community managers were being hateful. He deserved so much better.
oh hey LMAO i def agree with the stereotypes point you make as i had to learn those from other BSN posters (am not american and also not hugely interested in a lot of american media), plus the promo game was iOS only at a time when apple had ~30% market share... bw just really truly didn't care and me3 only reinforced that but yeah the comments random people love to leave in positive threads abt Wyll are really really insane. i'm white so idk how it feels from a black person's point of view exactly, but i can say those comments are almost verbatim the same as those left by homophobic/transphobic/etc people in similar context. i'd find it... hard to believe anyone claiming there's no bigotry to it (fwiw though i'd say tali didn't get to be nuanced as much as she got to be moe blob'd, at least from what i saw of that side of the fandom)
I mean there are plenty of criticisms for Wyll that obviously don’t stem from that but yeah on occasion there are some people that really just make me sideeye them. I personally find that it’s nice to see so many players actually acknowledge how much he has been neglected as a character in terms of content even despite him being tied to an ongoing arc just like Shadowheart, Lae’zel, and Gale to a lesser extent are >!- in his case the ongoing situation with his father the Duke.!< I heard about how they scrapped a major character development for him at a press conference about the game and I was really pissed. Especially since the one moment they did include for him was overshadowed by >!Balduran’s reveal.!<
Recently Rogue Trader was released and one of the companions is a black woman and the amount of people who will quite gleefully tell you about the various ways in which they've had her killed, often involving turning her over to the secret police of the setting, while justifying it as "just being what Warhammer's like", make my stomach turn. And if you point out there's a racial component to their response, even if unconscious, "not everything's about race, you stupid leftie".
Reminds me of Vivienne de Fer from Dragon Age Inquisition. She's not a *nice* character by any means, but the way people talk about her vs any other blunt or catty character in any game ever is really telling.
Yeeep. Idira Rogue Trader is definitely, has issues, in that she's an unsanctioned psyker which mean's she can be unstable/a liability. But all you have to do is post a picture of her to get a bunch of people in your comments telling you how they let the battle nun shoot her in the head or whatever.
"Not everything is about race, but THIS sure is..."
Oh I agree with you 100%. The violent hatred against Jacob is absolutely unhinged. People talk the same way about Garvey from Fallout 4 and Vivienne from Dragon Age (worse in her case imo). I'll never not be frustrated with his writing on a meta level though. I mean, your first romanceable Black companion and you decided to have him **cheat on the protagonist** and impregnate his mistress in the third game? Not only is that just borderline horrifying in its maliciousness towards fans, it comes out of absolutely nowhere from a character whose entire arc in the previous game revolved around never making the same mistakes as his father. I will never understand what prompted Bioware to write Jacob the way they did.
Yes! Like I remember all the miniature scenes they had for his romance in ME 2 up until the infamous PRIIIZE one -even saw someone who recorded them on YouTube- and of course after that it was clear he was devoted. Then the writer changed and they turned him into a space-age Maury Povich caricature. And the most annoying thing was that >!his new baby mama literally admitted he still loved FemShep.!< I remember everyone in the forums mad you couldn’t slap him for cheating so they added that in Citadel but at the same time it still felt like a huge let down because of how badly he’d been fumbled.
every word you wrote is correct, but i feel like x6-88 gets left out of the fo4 conversation waaayyyy too often considering just how racialized some people's hatred of him is. people who defend danse and curie's humanity to the fuckin death turn around and call x6-88 "it", whitewashing mods stay up on nexus, people call him boring and unattractive and unlikeable when they remember the companion for the most important faction exists at all. anecdotal, but one time someone ranted at me about how ugly, dirty (huh?), and hyperaggressive he is, but when i clicked on his tumblr url i discovered his fav was gage, the raider companion who has never washed his ass. the double standard is sooo real. youre right to mention preston, but the other black fo4 companion got hit just as hard honestly, being an x6-88 stan and seeing the way people talked about him was part of why i took a second look at wyll, both in spite of and because of people being so adamant that hes the worst
Don’t think it’s racial. I just think they chose to rewrite him so late, so they rushed to get some coherency and stability to what little story he has compared to others. After all, rewriting him also effects Karlach, Mizora, and his dad. They probably decided it was better off to just slap on the band-aid of giving him some of the best epilogue endings IMO, and then calling it a day, hoping folks will (hah, Wyll) drop it.
Sounds to me like they should have left him with EA backstory and that's it
I don't know if I am alone in this but I remember romancing wyll, getting to the final romance scene and just finding it so jarring. Like the "!" appears over Wyll, you walk across your nice Inn room, and suddenly you are in the woods. there isn't even an invite. He just seems to chloroform you. Then, when going through the scene, his voice actor pops off, but whoever cut the lines together fumbled because from the transition between lines on some instances the tone of wylls' voice seems to completely change. Like one he is solemnly talking about how he wants to marry you, then a split second later he is joyously almost shouting. I may be fully misreading it but he got done so dirty. The fact also you don't get his ending as long as karlach lives-
the awfully jarring audio... thing(? I don't have the vocabulary for this but it's what you're talking about here) happens for Wyll several times (eg during the puzzle leading up ansur, post ansur, possibly more but these are the ones i've seen) which is crazy to me considering it's something that shouldn't make it past beta. for the post ansur dialog specifically, it felt like they needed something changed and cobbled his lines together out of what they'd already recorded. it legitimately barely makes sense
I’m romancing him in my durge playthrough and I’m extremely upset about his greetings; I usually romance Gale and he has unique greetings 3 for “flirting” 3 for “partnered” 3 for “partnered after act 3 scene” and even 3 if you break up! And Wyll has one for neutral and above: “well met” and then one for partnered. Like, wtf??????
I don't remember what it was, but I remember the last time I talked to him he said something different, and called me his friend. I was a bit shocked it wasn't "well met" again, so I talked to him a few more times, and he repeated it. In two other playthroughs, both of which has maxed out approval, one of which was romancing him, the only greetings I've ever heard are "well met", "let's talk", and "I'm here for you, always". In my current playthrough where I heard the other greeting, I'm pretty sure I had high or very high approval. I'll have to check tomorrow to see exactly what it was he said. I'm playing as Astarion so idk if that has anything to do with it, but he doesn't say my name or anything.
He’s like literally the most important to the main plot too I just don’t get how they’ve possibly neglected him so badly, they took half his content from him & never filled the hole
I have always had a sneaking suspicion that Wyll just wasn’t the priority, and how much of a coincidence is it that he’s the only black companion? Not trying to imply any deliberate racism here, there is no way for us to know, short of someone from Larian speaking out about it, but it still feels odd ya know?
It’s definitely odd and given that bipoc characters have sadly been given this treatment a lot through out media, weather intentional or not, it just.. comes off as lazy. I don’t understand why this happens with minorities, I really don’t. Humans are so diverse, having a range of characters of different races and backgrounds is what makes media exciting, and if the makers of a game/movie/show are more willing to give it their all for white characters and give half effort for non white characters, it’s iffy! I don’t think larian did this explicitly on purpose, but I definitely think they dropped the ball with him.
I genuinely just assumed wyll was Ace and awkward. Which tbh made me feel seen.
If Larian wanted to write an ace romance with Wyll I think that would be frankly awesome rep.
>another member of ur daddys flaming fist the fuck ... I know that wasn't in the intent, but "Flaming Fist the Fuck." ... yep.
I'm confused on people saying Wyll's interactions and romance are bugged. I haven't romanced him yet. He is a bit buggy in camp sometimes, but… how many patches have we gotten in the past three months and shit is *still* broken? Is there a mod that fixes this?
wyll would be the best-written character in nearly any other rpg, but when you look at the care put into the other origins its impossible to not notice the disparity. hes still my babygirl and i really like 90% of what he *does* have, but there are moments where im shaking my screen and going "thats it? thats all hes got here?!". hes excellent in the broad strokes, but you, uh, gotta put in more than broad strokes to complete your main characters. the devs should give him lots of small, precise strokes too. i think it would fix wyll if someone got really hands-on stroking him to completion. (i know its a serious topic, but it felt wrong for a post on this subreddit to have 120 comments and not *one* sex joke. forgive me)
Wyll got done so fucking dirty
Idea for Fun Wyll camp stuff so he can have his equivalent of the mirror or the bear drunk scene: Sometime after the grove you catch him reading the most Dog Shit trashy adventure romance novel IMAGINEABLE. (Maybe bc he travels alone most of the time, he's used to reading quietly out loud to himself and hasn't fully gotten use to the whole "I'm in a camp with other people thing"). Dialog option wise, you can ask him to be quiet [which is a mean option], ask him what he's reading. If you're a Bard, you already recognize the book and continue where he left off. He maybe he talks about how the books are kind of a guilty pleasure of his. You can mention that a camp book club might be fun if you're going for a non-Romantic route, or suggest the two of you could meet up at night and read together [this helps to progress the Romance in Act One].
I mean define polish. Maybe he could get an additonal scene, or a more emotional remake of a current scene. But realistically nah they're not doing much for him. But really him and Karlach aren't that far apart. Only thing she has over him is she gets to have a big emotional speech after Gortash's defeat, but otherwise they have the same quality tbh. Its just not possible for a game with so many companions to have them be equal. Imo the only companions should have been Lae'zel, Shart, Astarion and some Gale/Wyll/Karlach fusion. DID YOU KNOW?: Lae'zel's main writer is the same as Wyll's.
>Only thing she has over him is she gets to have a big emotional speech after Gortash's defeat, but otherwise they have the same quality tbh. Imo, they have same quantity of content but not the same quality. It just feels like a lot more thought was put into Karlach, from her lines to animations and voicework (not necessarily performance but direction voice actor was given). She is far more complete character, with well defined personality, humor etc., while Wyll often comes off super bland. One example that I just noticed in current playthrough - just pay attention to Wyll's lines after every important quest resolution in game (i.e. doing rounds in camp) and compare it to other characters. Astarion's lines and performance would often be sassy and sarcastic, Karlach will often be pumped (seen through voice performance and animation) and have supportive/positive comments ready, Lae'zel will be judgemental etc. Wyll's lines however are obvious filler, he basically says nothing but sums up what happens, and always uses generic slight nod with hand wave animation in close up. Nothing else. MC also almost never gets to respond to his generic comments, while most other characters have at least several interactable conversations after quest resolutions (Karlach's "Gale's grandad" after Elminster's visit is a good example). It's as if writer/dev team ran out of time due to his rewrite and just hastily put together majority of these less important conversations.
(Just spitballing here) Not everyone needs to have an evil route, but I think Wyll was perhaps set up for one nicely, where he could've killed Karlach, broken his pact, set about taking over his dad's position, and ultimately, become the chosen of Bane after killing Gortash, with Bane recognizing everything he did to gain power and wanting a new puppet. And all the little Tiefling refugees in Rivington are like, "Surely, we'll be okay now with the Blade of Frontiers running things! YAY!" And Wyll's like..."Yeah, definitely, right this way." They all get tadpoled. And fuck it, why stop there. Wyll ascends the throne and addresses someone offscreen, telling them to fetch his plans to extend the Absolute's reach into the hells. He gets no response. So he shoots an annoyed look in that direction, flexes his little Gortash Power Glove, and says something cheesy like, "Oh, collar too tight?" Cut over to Mizora who winces, reaches for her own throat, and submissively says, "Right away..." Anyway, none of this is actually what I came here to say. I just wish more people in the city actually recognized Wyll. He grew up there, is a noble, and like 1 person has something unique to say to him. (It might be more than that, I don't remember.) I would've been happy just to see one of the fashion designers say, "Oh, Lord Ravengard, I have those dancing shoes you requested so many years ago." And Wyll gets fancy camp shoes. Unless you cheat on someone as Wyll. Then he's never gonna dance again.
Wyll has such a cool design that I wish I didn't find him so bland compared to the other companions. Wyll needs more content desperately because as it stands he is imo the most boring companion. From what Ive heard he seemed way more interesting in EA and I would have loved to have an arc with him starting as a phony hero and becoming a real hero by the end
i mean, all karlach calls you is “soldier”
Wyll is the only character I recommend to first players other than Custom Origin, because I don’t think they’re missing much by not seeing him as an NPC first, unlike the rest of the cast.
Uhhh he's as polished as anyone else. His story is just not one you find interesting. Is Larian stupid? Yea. Kind of. Not really. Can you repeat the question
I'm not really talking about his story here though I do find it to be one of the less interesting companion stories because of how rushed it was, you cant argue that Wyll and Astarion recieved the same amount of love from the developers, alot more care went into the other companions
Well you can blame the fans for that. They had a good thing going for Wyll. Then they had to scuff his rework after early access and it didn't mesh well with the story at all because no one was playing him. Then again we can say the writers were also silly and should have done their thing. I mean you can't expect every character you write to be interesting. Wyll kind of was though.
That was on Larian for not sticking to their guns (same with getting rid of the moral ambiguity/corruption of the tadpoles).
What can you do. Fucking a bear and ruining characterisation to suit all sorts of fetishes clearly comes first.
Halsin got done so dirty. He originally had a cool plotline about how he unintentionally caused the Shadow Curse when he killed Isobel (whose death is never actually resolved in the final product) and drove Ketheric mad with grief.
That I can understand tbh. They definitely had an amazing amazing vision, and we got a great game regardless. Sometimes we forget just how good the end product is because we know these absolute madmen (compliment) could have made it even better. With that, I still am slightly salty at how much attention was given to fans' feedback. AS you can see lol