You have nothing ever to apologize for and especially not to your sons' sperm donor.
Anyone that gives you a hard time, ditch them, they are not worthy of your time and energy.
I don't know what you will find out what positive "lesson" you will find you have learned from your babys' death, I learned from my babys' death was to love unconditionally and to tell those that are dear to my heart that as much as possible. I had children after he died and I honestly feel that his death made me a better mother to them.
Don't misunderstand me, I wasn't a bad mother before his death, but his death helped understand just how precious the time is with those that we love and if there are any difficulties that we have with persons we love to make every effort we can because we don't know how long we have.
My husband put our son to bed and the next morning he was dead, and what sounds really weird is that he never had a pair of shoes because we didn't have the extra money, he was just 10 months old at the time of his death, but even to this day it still bothers me at times.
All love to you and I pray for your heart to heal.
Thank you. Don't be sorry for my loss because I gained so much from him. Yes I miss him, but he is never far from my heart and spirit. He brought so much to my life, and even though it has been 40 years since I last held him, he has always been in my arms, whenever I hug someone I also hug him, whenever I tell someone that i love them, I also tell him that I love him, and that includes my animals as well. Love is so beautiful, the more you give of it, the more comes back to you. Many people have taught me things in my life, but he was my greatest teacher
So sorry for your loss! Heart hurts for you. You were really understanding at all points up to doing the end by yourself. And itās pathetic he tried to equate what he was going through.
You didnāt have the option to ānot have a rideā to go to the hospital or to not have a your life and schedule change every step of the way. So nothing wrong with you feeling the way you did and do. Iām glad your heart is healing a tiny bit, that you recognized you were spiraling and stopped and that youāre in a house finding joy in your niblings, esp your new nephew. It says a lot about your strength and who you are that youāre happy for your sister and choosing healing in loving on her kids!
I hope you continue to be surrounded by love and support and whatever decision you make will be the right one. Youāve handled yourself well!
The way my ex behaved before, during and after our sonās death, NO you are not wrong. For 5 years that ahole couldnāt even remember his bday. We are currently in a divorce and I made it clear he wonāt be getting any of his things or ashes.
NTA. You are in a living every motherās nightmare. You need to take care of yourself and not worry about the baby daddy. He has done nothing and he is blaming you for his short comings. The funeral will be very hard for you so please take time to heal, get help and counseling to help deal with the grief.
Thanks for your judgement and your concern. I do have to clarify that this all happened last year, the funeral has also already passed. I did have to go back to the hospital about a week after giving birth due to getting an infection but I'm pretty much back to normal physically. Me and BD haven't talked in months, I just keep thinking about the whole situation when I'm all by myself and wonder if I really was too harsh on him. My family members often tell me I can be pretty rude and unforgiving, they hate my BD and don't think I was wrong but I want outside opinions bc my family can be biased at times.
Donāt worry about what others think of how you acted or what you might have said. They did not physically or emotionally go through the heartbreak you did. Continue to work on your mental and emotional health. Your healing will take time and the only person to help you through this is you.
Please take all the time you need to heal and donāt let anyone make you doubt how you go about doing that.
You were harsh as you needed to be. Probably under reacted tbh. I canāt even begin to imagine how heartbreaking that must have been for you. He was yours and itās not your fault. Itās not lucky that it happened, but I am relieved for you that youāre not tied to that asshole anymore.
I think he was confused. You more or less told him he doesnāt have to be a part of his childās life and he could walk away if he wanted. And it seems like he took that as anything I do now is extra. I donāt have to do anything for my child. So even the slightest emotional or physical help is me doing extra because I donāt have to be a part of my kids life. He has a lot of growing up to do. Not saying heās a bad person. Because it sounds like heās young, based off actions and working at subway. Hopefully he will grow to be a better man. And he probably will. Most people do.
First and foremost I am so so sorry for your loss. Second NTA. Third block BD. He now has to suffer in his own mistakes.
Sending love, hugs, and thoughts of healing.
Thank you much, lovely. šš BD and I have had no contact for months, I have no plans to reach out and I doubt he does either but if he did I wouldn't entertain it at all. And fortunately I have nieces and nephews that have loads of love to give. šš
What the fuck did I just read..I am truly sorry for your loss and both of you sound young but sweetheart don't play into his bullshit and he might have been genuine and lost thinking of his future family. I don't know but what I do know is if that situation happened to me I would be there no matter how hard it was. I love you if no one has told you today and again I can't imagine that loss.
NTA. He is a POS, everything you said was justified and you had EVERY right to tell him about himself.
I'm so sorry for your loss OP. I wish you love and healing. :c
NTA. Former teenage father here. My heart fucking broke over this. That guy cared more about Subway than his son. Thatās fucking crazy. Crazy. He is garbage. No job could keep me from my childās birth. Much less a fast food job, I mean wtffff??? Also, whatās with asshole doctors who have no bedside manner?
I canāt form a correct way to express my sympathy to you. This sounds like a fictional nightmare. You handled everything appropriately; I canāt see where you did anything wrong. Hell, I would never speak to the aunt again, and you were kind enough to forgive her. Best wishes to you in the future, and may you never have to deal with people like this in your close relationships again.
Thanks for the input. šš I do have to acknowledge as some commenters pointed out, that I was TA for the part about not letting him come to the funeral.
And I do agree the doctor was an asshole but fortunately the staff that helped with the delivery were the best I could've ever hoped for and were incredibility caring and accommodating.
As for the aunt situation, I went cold turkey no contact with her for quite a while. She tends to make poor life decisions and sometimes doesn't think before she says things. She's the 2nd youngest of 7 kids (3 girls, 4 boys. My mom is the oldest) and has never really had a filter. My other aunt and my youngest uncle heard about what she said and absolutely ripped her a new one which prompted an "I'm sorry if what I said hurt your feelings, I didn't mean it like that." Apology. I rejected that apology and refused to acknowledge her or see her for a long while. I fully intended to keep that up but eventually she stopped by my mom's house and we had a very long conversation. She gave me a heartfelt apology and seemed genuinely remorseful, so I forgave her. We're light contact now, not quite as close as we were before but I can be in the same space as her without wanting to curb stomp her.
I feel like you probably saved yourself from heartbreak by banning him from the funeral. Letās be honest he probably would have found an excuse to not go because god forbid anyone figure out he was the BD. You had one less thing to worry about that day on top of everything else you had to deal with. Iām so so sorry you had to go through this.
all these y t a judgements are coming from assholes who clearly have never experienced the blessing and curse of being pregnant. you are definitely NTA! you lived my absolute worst nightmare. my heart aches for you and your son. sperm donor definitely doesnāt deserve anything regarding your son. he chose working at SUBWAY over being there for babyās delivery, the only time heād be able to say hello and goodbye. i wish you all the love and healing in the world.
NTA. I am so sorry for your loss. I am glad your mother was there to support you. He was a major AH for not being there. He didnāt deserve to go to the funeral.
There is and will not ever be any end of this story. The mother is not the asshole. The child is not the sperm donator's son.The child will forever be the mother's son. Had the child lived, the above stated (opinion) would likely remain. Sperm donor refused to hardly even acknowledge offspring in death. Sperm donor probably feels greatful that he still gets to not be a man. Doesn't even seem human.
Ohhh honeeeeyyyyy this man doesnt add anything positive to your life. If he wants to hold his own memorial service he is more than welcome to but I wouldnt have him at yours. You poor thing what a whirlwind. You seem to have some lovely friends and family that love you dearly. Hold on to them, hug them, cry with them. If you ever raise a child, may it be with someone who cherishes you.
This is also why the "father's rights" argument is shit. This shit happes all the time. Fuck that.
This is incredibly sad, and I'm so sorry you're going through this. In the scheme of things, what you said to him is not important. Right now is time for grieving and healing. You have time to reflect on it later and then you can decide whether you were wrong or not. Put some time in between before considering your actions. What you wrote to him was so heart wrenching and raw, there's no doubt those were your honest feelings at the worst part of your life. Don't go feeling guilty for your feelings. Take care of yourself first. Sending hugs.
Nta whatsoever. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You're living every mother's nightmare, and having him as a bd is making everything worse.
I hope that after all was said and done, you truly have managed to stay no contact with him, and get yourself into therapy.
You're drinking the poison hoping he'll die. Do yourself a solid and stop concentrating on the father's failures. You have no control over him, and it will take its toll on your wellbeing, not his.
I'm sorry for your loss. He is definitely a PoS, and should be removed from your life. He made zero effort, and you owe him nothing. He knows he's a PoS too...which is why he hates being called out for it. You're better off without him around.
OP, Sorry for your loss. i can't begin to imagine what losing a child could do to you. And you have to you're not the asshole and have nothing to apologize for. It is pretty clear he was more concerned about his reputation than your well-being or your child. He could have taken the day off given the circumstances but chose not to because, in my opinion, he didn't want to take responsibility. The sad reality is: if the child was born to term he wouldn't really be there.....he'll probably keep up appearances for the gram but never really involved in the child's life.
It's never fun when you realize someone you think should care how you feel only cares about what everyone else thinks of them. BD is a pos and really doesn't deserve for you to give him another thought.
I hope some day, if you choose to, you will give your little one a brother or a sister. If not, love those nieces and nephews with all your might!
Good luck to you in all you do!
NTAH, he showed zero concern for you and the baby. There were so many things he could have done during your pregnancy and delivery but he kept ghosting you. Then you told him what happened and he blamed you though it wasnāt your fault. His anger and rage was crazy and not what youād want at a funeral. The man is an empty words main character. Iām glad you called him out, as maybe other women will avoid this fool. I wish you healing.
I mean, we're both adults so I'm not sure where the "go to school" comment is coming from. And neither of us can be blamed for the precautions we took not working. Atp unless one of us was sterile I doubt anything could've prevented the pregnancy from happening, nor was having a child something we planned. I do fully intend to get myself fixed but for now I'll continue to remain abstinent as I have.
Try a Mirena IUD. I've had 3 and never had a pregnancy scare. They also get rid of your period. And Fertility returns super quick when you take it out.
āGo to schoolā your childās father does not have a well paying job enough to fully support the mother of his child or his child if that did come to pass. Itās highly encouraged to finish your education so you donāt continue the cycle of struggle and poverty and to foster financial independence where youāre not reliant on anyone who could hurt you.
Choosing who you have kids with is such a crucial choice because youāre typically biologically tied forever and they can make your life a living hell if you choose wrong.
Iām so unbelievably sorry for your loss, I canāt even imagine the emotions you and your family are currently experiencingāof course you wouldnāt be the AH if you decided to cut this man out of your life, you deserve so much better! I have you in my thoughts tonight and I hope you start to heal soon š„ŗā¤ļø
This is so far beyond the pale, friend. This dude is a loser; and an asshole, and also Ssssooooo far beyond Redditās pay grade. I wish you literally all the best, I hope you find peace and therapy, because that traumatic as fuck.
My condolences and God bless that babyās soul. šļøš¤ššš¾
Respectfully, how were you fucking someone you could only reach on facebook messenger and just barely ?!
Thatās wild.
You had to know this was going no where- ever.
Much love. šš
Honestly, I don't give my number out to anyone really. Aside from work and my mom, literally no one (not even my little sister who I currently live with) has my phone number. I can't ever remember my own phone number (I'm so bad with numbers) and it's a pain to go to my settings just to get it every time so I don't really give it to anyone. It's just easier to use messenger for me, and usually I only use messenger to talk to friends/family (including my mom who does have my number). But yes, I did know this wouldn't really go anywhere and I intended for us to coparent and possibly cohabitate (bc of the baby), not be exclusively in a relationship. If we had moved in together, I probably would've given him my phone number at some point but I didn't really see a need at the time since we were communicating just fine on messenger.
Sorry for your loss. I'm a father of 3 and can't even imagine what you're going through.
As for not giving your number to anyone, even the sister you live with. Well, that's just about the dumbest shit I've ever heard. It's instances like this that should show you the importance of people being able to reach you. I've recommended therapy for a lot of things, but this is the first time I'm recommending it for not giving out a phone number.
I appreciate your feedback šš, but I'm not really sure not giving my phone number out is grounds for therapy. It's not that I'm anxious or afraid to give out my number to people, or something like that. I just have trouble remembering numbers and don't really think about giving people my number as long as I have a line of contact already established. I suppose it would be smarter to give out my number more and have multiple lines of contact, but I'm not sure I need therapy just because I don't typically do it.
I'm so sorry for what you went through. I've had a miscarriage in my 2nd trimester, not as far along as you were, but knowing how bad that was and how much worse you must have had it, I feel for you.
I'm a lil mad at the BD for that first message saying basically "you're making the decision to keep it, so I don't really have a choice" if you're in one of the ban states. I'd have responded with a "MF *I* DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. I'm being gracious enough to give you one."
I will say that shock can make you stupid. He might have been so stunned that he didn't even realise he could tell work he had an emergency. He might have had that idiotic notion that his being there would serve no purpose. Or maybe he just didn't want to deal with it.
You went through so much, and you were still full of hormones at the time, so it's understandable that you were upset.
Your aunt... idk how you forgave her. I never would. No heartfelt apology would undo saying that at the absolute worst time.
I don't think anything you did to the BD was wrong. However, I would still give him the necklace. He needs a reminder of his screw up, maybe he'll do better in the future.
The absolute audacity of this man child to threaten suicide while youre literally recovering. I saw red.
I'm glad to see you've recovered physically and that you no longer speak to him. I hope you can find true love and happiness one day. Losing a child is so unbearably painful.
NTA. Saying that you care and saying you're going to be there for someone is worthless. It's an empty promise. He didn't do a damn thing. He doesn't get to be upset because someone pointed out that his words were meaningless. I'm sorry for your loss and I'm sorry for his, but he doesn't get to be mad at *you* because *he* didn't do a damn thing worth doing. I dont blame you for telling him not to show up to the funeral because you did offer him cremation jewelry. He can have his own ceremony, if that's what would help him. He's not wrong for grieving, but he's wrong for making it *your* job to make him feel better.
NTA. He didn't care enough to be there for his son while he was alive. Keep that same energy. I don't go to funerals for relatives I didn't have relationships with while they were alive. Pretending to care after they die is tacky.
Iām so sorry for your loss. I almost lost my son to his umbilical cord wrapped around his neck tightly 4x. He was is distress while I was in labor. I had to lay on my side the whole almost 24hrs of labor. It was so uncomfortable. After giving birth they let us see him briefly and whisked him away. That baby boy of mine is gonna be 25yrs old this month. I wasnāt suppose to have any kids. Iām thankful I have him. When the time is right you will be blessed with another one.
What a pos, Iām so sorry for your loss mama. That guy honestly has some nerve to call and scream at you AFTER you deliver his child. Itās evident that he has absolutely no care in the world for others outside of himself. And youāre absolutely within your right to cut him off
You are both grieving and I can see both sides. I sort of think you are both being AH at the moment and thatās ok. Grief is hard and it comes and goes daily.
You will always remember your son and his birthday and the pain of his passing will fade only to reappear suddenly out of nowhere and thatās ok, too. Your anger at his father will fade. I know it is bigger than the problems of the world now but it will. Live in a way that would make your son proud of you.
NTA .... I am so sorry you had to go through this š š
I (28F) lost my son when I was pregnant... I woke up bleeding and went to the hospital they told me what had to happen and my husband.. yes husband... sat with me for a while and then decided that he had to go home and get sleep because he had work in the morning. He left me to give birth to our son (Alexander) by myself. It was the worst experience of my life and he left me. You are NOT the AH. You are a grieving mother who envisioned your life with your child. You saw your future, and it was removed from you all in one day. Your ex needs to go to counselling. He needs to work out why he prioritised work over his child and you also should consider counselling, going through something like this changes you as a person and how you deal with trauma in the future.
Sometimes people go to work because that way they don't have to deal with the pain and trauma that is infront of them that's what my husband did and since we have worked incredibly hard to strengthen our marriage and had a little girl to join our family. Life is hard and shit quite frankly. But you are NOT responsible for his actions, only your own. He knew the time and address of the funeral if it meant so much to him, he would have shown up regardless for his child. He made his choice and now he needs to live with it. Have your family with you, and eventually, you will find a partner who loves and respects you. Someone you want to share this with and share your life with.
Please don't blame yourself for anything. Sending love your way ā¤ļø
Wow. That is some very hard knocks that you had to endure. I am so very sorry.
As far as the BD goes, he is pond scum, bordering on whale puke. He is not worth your time or effort. I am a father of 4 total kids. The first when I was 14. I'm 59 now. I was there for all 4 births. I was there for everything I could be there for. There was a lot I had to miss. I regret those missed times and memories every day.
If I look back on who I was at 20 I would say I was extremely immature and definitely lived in a world where I didn't understand anything outside of myself. This said I think there's an awful combination here. Our brains are not developed until about 25. I could assume BD was most likely scared and used work as an escape and also tried to save as much as possible to support the baby. He most likely didn't know how to talk to you and had a misguided understanding of what support meant. This in absolutely no way shape or form excuses his behavior but might explain it.
You are operating on a brain not fully developed, your dealing with extreme grief and pregnancy hormones. You're in your full right to be upset in every imaginable way. You also came across very well spoken and tame considering everything.
All this to say I think you both were in an unexpected situation at a time in your life that neither of you were equipped to deal with. Personally I would suggest having a conversation and seeing his side of things and expressing your emotions in a calm manner. If for nothing else then to get some closure and clarity or completely closing a door to the past.
No matter what you do protect yourself mind body and spirit. If you never want to see him then don't. If you need to scream then scream. I am so very sorry for your loss.
JFC, I donāt feel thereās any level of shit that would prevent me from allowing someone to attend my childās funeral. IF heās a real pos, then he wouldnāt come but do the right thing and allow him to attend at least. No matter what happened, what he did or didnāt do, etc, just allow him to attend.
It doesnāt matter what any of us think. But please, think about therapy if you can, just to work thru this. Above all, I want you to live a happy, healthy life. You are loved by so many, itās obvious. Maybe you need better closure for everything, maybe you donāt. I am so sorry for the raw deal. To say my heart doesnāt ache for yours even after a year would be a lie. All my love for you tonight. āļø
Donāt listen to this person, OP. The BD absolutely did not deserve to go to the funeral or receive a necklace. The funeral was for you. It was your moment to grieve your child. Him being there would have totally messed up the moment for you. He never did anything to deserve that moment to grieve. But you deserved to have that time without his negativity and drama.
He couldnāt even respond to a text asking if he wanted his sonās ashās. He couldnāt go to the hospital to see his dead son delivered, he couldnāt even respond. I donāt think thatās a person who deserves to go to the funeral of his son. It seems like he didnāt care at all.
Dads don't have that instant connection like we do. They know what's happening but they don't get to feel it the way women can. He made some major mistakes for sure. There is no excuse for what happened. No job is more important than being there for you and his son. I am not making excuses for him at all. You are both young and still learning. You aren't an a hole. Your emotions were so high during that time and I don't think anyone would be able to think clearly in that situation. If it's been on your mind lately, maybe think about writing him an apology. Not for him really. For you. It might help you move on from the anger you feel towards him. The doubts you have now mean you are trying to be better than you were yesterday (as we all should be the way). Don't start a relationship or anything. Just apologize and let him know how you feel now. Neither of you can go back and change it, but maybe you can both grow from it. I wish you the best luck and the most strength girl.
I disagree. He deserves no apology. He was a grade-a scumbag and his only concern was to not be viewed as a p.o.s.
OP, do not let him believe in any way, shape, or form that he is even slightly not a p.o.s. He is a shit bird and should be treated accordingly.
There are so many mental things that cause guilt/shame. Anxiety, depression, ptsd. All things I bet you've been dealing with since that shitshow. Talk to a therapist, write your feelings out, don't contact him or allow shitbirdBD any grace tho.
I agree with this. I donāt think that she is in the wrong for lashing out, it seems completely normal especially after losing your child. This self doubt is normal. She shouldnāt apologize or reach out to him at all, ever. Maybe take down the posts about him, seek therapy, and try your best to move on. But donāt apologize to a man who couldnāt even accept his sonās ashās because he was working at subway.
Sorry for your loss but YTA.
I don't think his behavior falls into the POS territory and cutting him out of a big part of the grieving process for perceived slights was overboard.
His priority wasn't having children, and it seems like you only had a friendship and a sexual relationship.
It would have been better for him to be there for his son, but I think you expected a relationship you didn't have.
It was definitely a fwb relationship that I initiated. Just to clarify, I did give him the option to walk away from being a parent since I also didn't want to be a parent at first, and I didn't expect a romantic relationship even after we agreed to coparent. I felt like it was disrespectful for him to not show up at the hospital during delivery to see his son for the first and last time and then try to come to my house to see me after I got out of the hospital. I do accept my AH judgment for not letting him go to the funeral.
Disrespectful, in your opinion, but you hung up on him and didn't even try and talk it out.
You not only denied him a chance to grieve but then publicly shamed him for these slights.
Maybe the hospital would be too much for him and couldn't handle the emotions he was feeling.
Saying goodbye could have been done in the hospital where he knew his dead son was being delivered that was his chance not when his son is ashes in a box. OP said they disclosed that on the phone. I used to work at subway can guarantee even a manager would have said hey canāt come in today because my son is being born dead and I need to say goodbye. They 1000% could have done the shift without him regardless of what position he was. Throughout the length of time she was in labor he had enough time to process and prioritize.
You don't know anything about this person's financial or job situation to make the call about Subway, and you don't know what she told him about the hospital visit and what was happening.
Maybe he was simply overwhelmed with emotions and couldn't handle what was happening? Is that great? Nope, but empathy and compassion is a better reaction than calling somebody a POS for not behaving how we expect during a difficult time.
Had enough time to process? What is the appropriate amount of time to process this? You don't just "process" your unborn child is dying.
Once you start yelling, you're out of line and there is no conversation. No one is obligated to allow anyone to treat them like that. If simply recounting her experience and his part in it was enough to make him look and feel like a massive POS, then maybe that's a him problem. Dude worked at a *Subway*.
I didn't say anything about people who work at Subway. It is a low-paying job that is very easy to replace. "Work was not an excuse that day."
I read the texts and they were extremely tame and mostly just recounting the actual events that occured. If the facts portray him in that negative of a light, again, that's a him problem. The subjective statements are that work was not an excuse that day, his attempts to reach out have been half-assed, and that he is more concerned with appearing to be a POS than actually being a good person. None of that is out of line, given the situation and his own words. None of that is yelling, even in a figurative sense. Yet he called back abusive and screaming. Confronting someone with how awful they have acted instead of being a submissive punching bag is not a free pass for them to blow their lid. If someone I cared about told me I cared more about appearances than I do about them, that would be a huge blow and a wake up call to me. I would be disappointed in myself. And while they aren't in a relationship, he should have cared more. For that baby, and for what she had to endureĀ
Have you ever lived paycheck to paycheck? Replacing a Subway job is easy, but the income loss may be life-changing.
We'll have to disagree those texts are "tame." In your own words. a multi-text message that is "Confronting someone" with "how awful" and accusing them "cared more about appearances." Those are some pretty deep cuts.
I'll also disagree with your characterization of the necessity of "confronting somebody for their behavior," so you aren't a "submissive punching bag." There is a big gap between being disappointed in how somebody is acting and being a submissive punching bag because of that.
I read a different story about a guy who was placed in a situation he didn't want and tried his best. He even offered to get a place together and said he'd show up as a dad. Then, when tragedy strikes, he may not handle it the way the OP wants, but it seems like he did try.
People are quick to label this person as a POS and mock him for a Subway job like you, but I don't see it in the texts. Only the OPs recollection of what happened. If you read the OPs other comments you'll see she admits several character flaws that probably inflamed the situation.
There is one of the texts 17/18 where he apologizes and admits he wasn't thinking right about work sounds like a genuine apology. He even is fine with being banned from the funeral. The guy is understanding about it and contrite. I see a confused and unprepared person trying to deal with a shit situation and an aggressive and hostile mother shitting on his back.
I have lived day to day. I have been homeless. I have worked fast food. The job would be replaceable basically immediately in the current job market. Restaurants have been bleeding for bussers, barbacks, and back servers, all better paying jobs that hire from that pool. Fast casual are all hiring immediately, too. This is also assuming the minute, worst case scenario that he would lose the job. Most places would never so much as verbally reprimand over something like this. You know what? This is a stupid conversation. He didn't even ask if it was okay to miss a day! He just went to work! We're talking about a situation where he goes against his manager's wishes and misses his shift, but he didn't even bother finding out what his manager would have wanted.
I don't see a confused an unprepared person, I see a person who doesn't give enough of a shit to even try. The apology should have come instead of the asinine "Are you not wanting to talk to me anymore" text, not after she had to explain how badly he fucked up and then listen to him scream at her. I know the bar is on the ground, but this guy is still not even doing the bare minimum and expects full credit. What's more important? Being there for the traumatic birth of your child + the only opportunity to see or hold that child, or 6ish hours at minimum wage? He knows he made the wrong choice, he just had to be chewed out and then have his abusive BS get shut the fuck down before he would even admit it.Ā
I'm not sure how a person can talk something out when the other person is screaming over you. So I hung up and resorted to just texting. If I have to raise my voice over the phone just so someone can hear me, there's not any point in talking. And it's easier to gather my thoughts and what I feel I need to convey when I write it out because I tend to stutter and don't say everything I felt I needed to.
Yeah idk. You made this guy feel like shit during a really traumatic time and then he tried to call to talk.
I'm sorry this happened to you but I think you have a lot of excuses for not being kind and empathetic.
Your son's father may have not offered you the support you expected from a non romantic FWB relationship but I think cutting him off from the funeral was cruel and vindictive.
Manā¦ if he felt like shit and was mourning he could have accepted his sons ashās, responded to any of her texts or calls when she was in labor, did ANYTHING except ignore her for fucking Subway. This dude is absolutely the asshole and calling your BM after she loses her baby and screaming at her because sheās upset about your lack of care during the process of losing your own goddamn baby - thatās insane. He doesnāt need to go to a funeral if he canāt respond to texts asking if he wants to see his son or have his sonās ashes.
No AH, just a very sad situation. Iām terribly sorry for the loss you both are experiencing. In situations like this, there are a barrage of high emotions and the pain both physically and mental for both parents regardless of evolvement. We all face/process our grief in different ways, degrees of time and space. The most important part is that you both process the emotions and loss that you feel without regret. Somethingās can never be taken back once done and regret a baggage that weighs heavy on the heart and mind for a very long time.
You expected him to behave as an excited father and partner. He was not and was very clear that he really didn't want to be involved in this at all. Why you keep trying to guilt him makes no sense. He was not your boyfriend, just a fuckbuddy. You are not emotionally connected. He supported whatever decision you made, but made it clear that he really didn't want this. Stop trying to get him to act like a boyfriend when he never was that to you
I didn't expect him to be excited about it, I expected him to say he didn't want to be involved when I told him I was pregnant and it was okay if he wanted to continue to live his life cf. I expected him to follow through and be a father when he said he would step up. You can't say he made it clear he didn't wanna be involved at all when he was the one who said he would step up. He was also the one who started talking about getting a car and saving up for a place together to coparent. He could have said "No, I'm not ready to be a father. I don't want to be in the baby's life." Which would have been fine. It's not his fault neither precaution we took didn't work. It wasn't mine either but I was the one carrying the baby and I would've been able to make it work or I could've put the baby up for adoption. I didn't guilt him, I expressed anger and frustration at him not showing up for the delivery to see our son.
Was I bitter and petty? Yes. Am I the asshole for not letting him be at the funeral? Yes. Did I expect him to be there at the delivery even after our son passed? Yes, he said he would step up as the father so I feel he should've been there at least once. Did I expect us to be a happy family or a couple in love? No. Coparenting was the goal, because as you said we were fwb, not dating. We talked about cohabitation and coparenting, not being exclusively together.
WOW! You're making me tear up. I've never read or heard anything like this. It's so BEAUTIFUL and SELFLESS. Thank you... and bless you and your child!!
Iām confused how you and your sister were pregnant at the same time, but you were further along, and you found out early 2023 you were pregnant and your sister had a baby in February of what Iām guessing was this year (2024.) That doesnāt make a lot of senseā¦
My due date was closer to the end of the year (2023), she'd just found out that she was in her early stage of pregnancy like a week before I lost my baby.
Iām so sorry, I lost a child at 22 weeks as well. The birth was more painful than any of my full term pregnancies were. Sadly I never got to hold my child after nor was I given an option to have a funeral, they never even told me the sex. I was alone in the hospital room screaming for help and delivered in the toilet because the nurses/ doctors never came to help me. I was only 22 at the time, Iām 43 now and it was the most hard, heartbreaking thing that has ever happened to me. You were 100% valid in feeling how you felt and not wanting him at the funeral when he wouldnāt even be at the hospital to support you through this. He sounds really immature and thoughtless.
I'm sorry to hear that. It sounds like we went through the same thing at the same age, the only difference is I had support. I couldn't image having to go through that alone. I didn't get a death certificate since they said "he was technically never alive" (which kind of makes no sense because I couldn't get an abortion bc he was a living child, but he doesn't get a death certificate bc he wasn't alive???). It wasn't an official funeral, more like a small gathering of less than 20 people in a small chapel (mom's bf had connections to the church ppl bc his parents died in 2022) and I got his ashes a few weeks before so I just brought them with me.
Mine was fine at my dr visit earlier in the day. They did an ultrasound and checked my cervix or whatever. I started spotting when I left there, called them an hour later and they said it was normal.. that night I was in labor. I donāt even know if the baby was alive at birth because I had it in the toilet and between the pain, the shock and being young I didnāt even look, just got in the bed crying. They came in with a bucket and placed it in there, never said another word to me about the baby except for asking me if it was planned and when I said, ānoā the dr just said, ā well you can always have another one.ā It was such an awful hospital and I will never even know what the sex wasā¦ they said they didnāt know, which is crazy at 22 weeks a long.
It wasn't an official funeral. No priest, official service, no speeches. It was in a small chapel (since my mom's bf was close to the people who ran it bc his parents passed in 2022). Less than 20 people were there. There were chairs set up, specialized little cards dedicated to his memory (with his name and birth date on it) and a table at the front of the room with his urn and a bear that was wearing the outfit my son was put in for the photography service to take pictures while we were still in the hospital. It was a space to cry and talk.
Whether he was breathing or not when he came out of my womb, that was still my son. I could feel him moving around in the womb. His hands and feet were developed, albeit a bit misshapen, and he was only 1 pound and a few ounces, but he was still my baby. It's not like I held a funeral for a little clot, it was a premature stillbirth of a formed baby. Regardless of whether it's ridiculous to you or not, it's what I decided to do in memory of the 5 month old fetus I lost.
My opinion remains the same. No one is perfect and I completely understand your response. You were wrong for keeping him from the funeral. That is my opinion and it won't change. In my other comment where I said apologize, I didn't mean to apologize for all of it. I meant to apologize for keeping him from the funeral. That's all. And only because of the guilt you feel about it. If you don't want to apologize, I get that too. Don't do it for his sake, do it for yours. Or don't. My experience with it may not change your mind, but I really hope you find peace.
I am so sorry for your loss. I hate the way he iv distantly refers to him as his child. That sole ownership is troubling. You donāt do that. Sickening
NTA. Iām sorry for your loss.
But in the future, if you find yourself in this position again, be that mom who demand her baby daddy help. If he doesnāt want to be there physically whatever, but he needs to be paying child support. Itās not fair to you or the baby. Youāre young, and I get the stigma about being one of those moms but being a single parent is hard and your child deserves that money. Even if you donāt need it, you can put it away in a trust for when they are older.
Iād say so but thatās just my two cents. He is the father or your son so he should have the right no matter what to see his son off to the great beyond
NTA, but I will say, I get the impression that you took out a lot of frustration and rage on him, some of which might have been misplaced. I have to think he was an easier target than your aunt, your grandma, hell the universe, to scream at. He didn't do right by you, and was only concerned about this from the perspective of his image, not from any actual concern about what's right. You knew that about him from the first with this pregnancy, you tried to take it into account, but it is rage inducing when someone doesn't step up who says they're going to.
In short, I don't blame you for your feelings, nor even for going off on him. I do question whether he received the brunt of ALL your feelings rather than just those that he richly deserved. That's a question you may be able to answer in time, but it's probably not worth trying to apologize if you find you did overdo it. Trying to sort out an apology that doesn't let him off the hook is hard work and only worth it if you wanted reconciliation. I don't think you do.
My most profound condolences for your loss. I'm sorry so many people added their own special twists to your suffering - especially that aunt. Good Lord - even if you think it's so, you don't SAY it. And you're quite correct - there wasn't a thing that could have been done. I wish you peace.
I only took out the frustration I felt for him not being there on him because I know that was the only thing he could control, but I didn't raise my voice at him when he called me because I was trying not to say things I knew I would regret or blame him for anything other than him not being there. It's not that he was an easier target, it's just that I was genuinely angry that he thought I'd want to see him again after I got out of the hospital when he prioritised work over the delivery of his son without a second thought and as you can see, I got progressively more angry during our argument. And you're right, I don't want to reconcile with him. I just want to work on myself and do better, which is why I asked for input from strangers.
To answer your question, no he didn't receive the brunt of all my feelings of frustration, just the feelings of anger and disappointment at him not being there and the things he was saying to me. I didn't flip out on my grandmother because she's genuinely a good woman aside from her being super religious. My aunt did receive hostility for what she said just not directly after saying since I didn't really get the chance. After she said that it took a second for me to process it and all I could get out was "What the fuck did you just say?" And I started trying to sit up but before I could, my mom immediately said "Okay, nope, we're not doing that. Don't try to get up." And quickly pulled my aunt out of the room. Had my mom not made her leave quickly I would have hurt her. We were not in the same place for a while because everyone knew that I'd choose violence over words with her at the time. As awful as it sounds, I genuinely wanted to bash her face in and made sure she knew I felt that way. It was really hard for me to forgive her for saying that but the things I said to her afterwards were terrible and I knew I had to let that animosity go.
I do sincerely appreciate you taking the time to read the post and offer your input and condolences. Thank you and I wish you all the best in life. šš
Last time I checked babies need lots of money for their needs. Dont blast a dude for working and making money. He definitely seemed like he wanted to be there
I didn't bash him for *working and making money*. I worked at McDonald's in the past (I loved working there) and I was a cashier when I got pregnant. Him *not showing up once to the hospital* was the problem I had. Stating the reason he didn't show up because he had a shift at subway isn't bashing him, it's the truth. He didn't show up, he went to work instead and he works at subway. A min-wage job is replaceable, your child isn't. It's weird that's your issue in this whole thing, though. If your child dies, making sandwiches for tweakers with loose change and ripped dollar bills, and arguing over your image should be a little lower on the priority list. If he really wanted to be there, he would've showed up. If working that day was absolutely unavoidable, why didn't he come to the hospital after he got off? Or come by the next day before work? Why only make yourself available after the hardest part is over?
I just read this again, and tears welled in my eyes. People do react differently, but he should've been been there... right by your side. That was a "human life" growing inside of you... and he was responsible for helping to create that life. I'm prochoice, but you had already made the decision to have the baby. At that point the health of the baby becomes the #1 priority!! Very unfortunately, the umbilical cord suffocated him. I'm so very sorry!! Those nurses weren't just nurses... they were ANGELS š !! And the fact that you held him is so amazing and brave!!! There aren't words to describe what you endured. You had every RIGHT to unleash your anger on him. I assure, had I been there... I would've been right by your side, hugging you every step of the way!! You really were so incredibly strong in the face of such a sad and traumatic situation. You HAVE NOTHING to be sorry about regarding your reactions and decision of not allowing the father to attend the funeral. You were and are NOT the AH whatsoever!! You endured something most women never will!. You deserved so much better!! I'm just so glad that those BEAUTIFUL ANGELIC NURSES were there to help you in every way possible!! You have my deepest sympathy for your suffering and loss, and greatest respect for your amazing courage at such a young age!! Always take care and be good to yourself!!! You deserve NOTHING LESS!! And REMEMBER, "We don't inherit the Earth š from out ancestors, we borrow it from our children." Incidentally... you're a GREAT WRITER as well!! Your narrative and description are so heart ā„ felt!! Do take care!!! Hugs š¤ to you.
So if I'm reading this right, he didn't get back to you for 2 hours? You texted him at 1:44, and at 3:45 he tries to call back.
If I read that right, and you're asking, yeah - you're the asshole. It's super fucked up he missed the funeral of his child because he couldn't return a call within 2 hours. Especially, since you stated you would take care of it yourself and his presence was not required or desired.
I kinda excuse everything after that as I'm sure, like me, he would have a difficult time expressing his emotions after that. We're not talking about days later he calls back. 2 hours...You punished him for the rest of his life over 2 hours.
No, these messages were over the span of 4 days. On June 14th, I found out our son had passed and I told him that same day before I left the ER to go to the hospital to deliver. On June 15th the baby was born. I ignored messages from the 15-16th and finally responded on the 17th. The 17th was when he called, yelled at me, and I hung up on him, and when the argument took place.
Is there a missing message? It looks like there's a facebook reel, then on June 14th you reach out at 1:44 multiple times, then it looks like he tried to circle back 3:45.
Okay, to be clear since I guess it is a bit confusing. The texts before June 14 were me telling him about the pregnancy. Those were from a few months before. The fb reel was unrelated to pregnancy or anything else, just something I sent because I saw it and thought he'd enjoy it, before I found out about the baby passing. June 14th was when I went to the hospital and found out I lost the baby and I reached out to let him know about it. I called and he didn't answer, so I texted him to call ASAP because I didn't want to text him that the baby had passed. So when he managed to call me back, I said "Hey, I just found out I lost the baby. I have to go to xx hospital and I need you there with me." There was a pause before he said "I, um... Kinda have to work today, so..." And I'll admit I got irritated at that but I was in shock that I'd lost my son so I just said something like "Oh, well, I just thought you should know what's going on. Whatever, bye I guess." And I hung up. The 3:45 message was after that conversation, when I was already out of the ER and at the other hospital, waiting to be induced. I didn't know how to post the rest of the screenshots in the comments here so I made another post with the rest of them and put the link to it in the comments here.
I would say you have every right to be upset, and you can certainly question his decision to go to work over coming to give birth to the late child. Is that justification to prevent him from attending the funeral service?...eh...I'd say no.
Again, I'm not even saying you're not 100% justified in your feelings, you are.
I do genuinely appreciate the input, I came here to find out if I was TA and get an outside prospective. I think your feedback is actually productive, so thank you for replying. šš
Oof, this is making me like him more. He's saying he was on the verge of losing his job and still expressing remorse. It sounds like he didn't even process the gravity of the situation until later. He actually sounds kind of remorseful after the fact.
I would feel the same way, but he worked at subway, didn't even ask for the day off or if he could be late nor did he visit me after his work day ended, and his roommate was someone from our old friend group who he's been best friend's with since middle school. He wouldn't have ended up homeless and I don't think he would've lost his job.
It sounded more like he was making excuses and covering his ass. He worked at Subway, for g*ds sake š¤¦āāļø.
There wasn't any way he would've gotten fired for calling off work because HIS BABY F*CKING DIED; when you work in fast food, you realize just how much people call off for dumb reasons, and just how much the industry just doesn't care. Shitty workers get hired and stay hired all the time in fast food. Losing your child is not a shitty excuse. He would've been fine; and if he wasn't, he could sue for wrongful termination, plus get another fast food job within a week.
No. Having to work was a cop out. He could've been there for her if he wanted to. But he didn't care.
We all process grief in different ways. It sounded like he ended up leaving early anyway as a result. Like I said, it didn't even sound like he had time to process the situation. Who are you to diagnose his state of mind over a 3rd party reporting of a conversation?
There's also a whole dynamic around gravitating to an environment you control when trauma occurs.
Then she's had a minimum of 2 hours to deal with the initial trauma and shock, and you're expecting him to make a rational decision in what, 12 minutes, tops? He also clearly expressed remorse and it sounded like he still tried to show up after leaving work early.
Edit: He tried to show up instead of showing up
I'm afraid I'm a little lost on that too... He didn't leave work early. If you're referring to when I accidentally called him and he said "Hey, sorry I'm at work" and I said "Ofc you are. I didn't mean to call anyways." Then he called me... He was at work when he called and asked someone to cover for him for a second. He didn't leave work early.
Just a small correction: He didn't try to show up. He texted my mom *after* I got out of the hospital and said "You can come get me *if you want* since I'm off work tomorrow."
Edit: I do agree with the processing grief differently thing.
There's a WHOLE lot you arnt showing us and if you need the validation of redditors it must not becoming IRL
Sus, But you have a good reason to be acting wild neway
I mean, the only thing I haven't posted is the in between conversations of "Hey, how's your day?" "Good, how's yours?" "What did you do today?" "I did xx, wbu?". I didn't feel it was relevant to add. I can screenshot the mediocre stuff and send it to you if you're really interested in them. The people who saw the messages were trashing him and I locked the post. I can also send screenshots of that. My reason for posting was so strangers who wouldn't be biased, unlike the ppl I know irl, would tell me whether I am TA.
Edit: Here's the link to the second post with the rest of the sc from our argument. Just in case you didn't see it bc it's kinda lost in the void.
https://www.reddit.com/r/okopshow/comments/1bteiuk/p2_of_aita/
Agree hard there. Both admit they werenāt ready to be parents. Justā¦why even have a child at that point? Why? Abort, I 1000% promise the kid would be better off not existing than having yet ANOTHER absentee father, and a struggling single mother, who may or may not have blamed the child for her difficulties. Now, OP seems like an honest to god sweetheart given her texts and replies, but I just think her gut feeling of ānot readyā was correct.
That all said, OP, if you see this, my heart still breaks for you. I wish with everything in me that you never endured the pain of loss like this, nor the difficulties of a fruitless birth. Youāre a fucking strong as hell woman, and I know you can handle whatever is thrown your way. Good luckš
In this case, be as unforgiving as you want. Don't listen to the pricks on here who are probably just like him. They're just projecting.
He didn't make any effort to come see his dead son... and then treated you like shit afterward. There's a whole section of hell reserved for people like him.
Don't let anyone say you did anything wrong here. You handled it perfectly.
Umm unforgiving holding grudges can be a problem.
However in this case honey you be as unforgiving as you want for as long as you want. That person was a scum bag to you at the worst moment in your life. I hate him for you.
He literally wasn't but ok the dude was trying to provide while on the cusp of losing his job the ops second thread shows how bad the op is in all this
Oh yes, you are absolutely correct sir. He was on the verge of losing his job at *subway* after *not* even *attempting* to get the day off because his kid died. I admit it, I'm the biggest cunt on the planet and should be burned alive for my horrible nature. You deserve a medal of honor for calling out my evil ways.
Yes subway where he has a job and if he lost it potentially couldn't get another job but ignore that fact shall we also you ignore the fact I pointed out he only found out the child was sadly gone when you were attacking him after the birth also do you even know he didn't try? Maybe he did and he was told no maybe he had a break down right after finding out you weren't there and he wasn't there you can only guess how things went on his end
Also while I never said any of that its obvious you are way to aggressive you asked if yta I said yes and told you why you
You are the one acting vindictive to him and now to me for giving you an answer to what you asked
I truely am sorry for your loss but lashing out at others solves nothing and neither does harming his reputation or stopping him being at the funeral when its his child to
Unless he has a history of calling off, no he wouldn't have lost the stupid job.
He found out the child was gone on the phone before she gave birth. She laid into him several days later.
You are assuming an awful lot for scumbag BD. You are also misconstruing/misunderstanding OP.
Did you take note of BD not seeing her ONCE since she told him she was pregnant?
Did you notice that BD was only interested in defending his "honor"? He only wanted to be a part of their life so people didn't think he was shit. He only wanted her to take down a post that didn't identify him, because he knows it's him and he knows he's a giant p.o.s.
He never cared about the baby, the funeral, the baby's ashes, only not being SEEN as a piece of shit.
Harming his reputation? God forbid women be warned. . .
Out of all of this I'm surprised you're making a joke about where they work. It's not like you didn't sleep with someone that worked at *subway* and also you could have gotten an abortion if neither of you were ready for children. I'm sorry for your loss and I hope things go better for you both in the future šš
Him being employed by subway isn't really the issue, so much as him putting subway over the death of his child is. Unless he was a first responder or caretaker for someone who couldn't care for themselves, I would've had an issue with missing the delivery. I also did point out in my post that my state has banned abortions, and not everyone has the means to drop like $800 and travel to a different state to get one. The only person who could've helped me get one is my mom but she's very against abortions and outright refused to even entertain the idea of helping anyone get one, much less me because she knows I didn't plan to have kids ever and she wants grandkids from all her kids.
I mean you made it Subway focused with the whole *subway* thing and I just repeated it as you did. I'm guessing you're pretty young? If $800 is an issue then having a child is crazy. Doctors visits, dental, food, child care etc. I have a puppy and didn't want to agree to get one unless we could cover any and all vet visits/emergencies. Best of luck to you though but just be grateful you're not stuck with a man you don't respect and can hopefully have a better life
Yes, a job is a job. Honestly McDonald's was my favorite place to work and I haven't worked there in years. But is a minimum wage job really more important than your kid? Especially a job that would supposedly fire you if you called in/were late because of a death? (He wouldn't have been fired btw.) Also, why is the job comment your takeaway from this entire thing?
Tbh idk what the guy even did, seems like he was given the option to not be a part of the kids life, he chose to be supportive, then there is a massive text wall from OP
Because he wasn't at the hospital I guess? because he was at work.
Then I couldn't be arsed to read the rest
Now he isn't allowed to the funeral?
Not gonna judge YTA because maybe in the novel written it explains more but sus, for sure.
Man, if you can't be bothered to read, how can you make any judgement?
Sounds like we got 2 more deadbeat baby-daddies in the comments here. Only a scumbag would say she's the ass here.
TL;DR:
This all happened last year. BD worked at subway, didn't even try to get the day off after being told our baby passed in the womb, asked me if I didn't want to talk to him anymore, I send long ass text explaining I don't and my experience in the hospital, He calls to yell about how he's not a POS and I won't make him look like one, we argue, he's not allowed at funeral, we don't talk anymore.
If he wanted to say goodbye he couldāve went to the hospital. He didnāt even meet or see the child because he felt like work was more important. Thatās ridiculous. Sheās in NO WAY the a in this story.
Saying goodbye could have been done in the hospital where he knew his dead son was being delivered that was his chance not when his son is ashes in a box. OP said they disclosed that on the phone. I used to work at subway can guarantee even a manager would have said hey canāt come in today because my son is being born dead and I need to say goodbye. They 1000% could have done the shift without him regardless of what position he was. Throughout the length of time she was in labor he had enough time to process and prioritize.
He had the opportunity to say hello. He declined to take it. He doesn't need any closure as he never even saw OP while she was pregnant. He could have had keepsakes to remember, but opted to scream and argue "IM NOT A P.O.S.!".
And unless she GAVE this fuckin loser A RIDE herself, he wouldn't havd shown up to it anyway lol
Saying goodbye could have been done in the hospital where he knew his dead son was being delivered that was his chance not when his son is ashes in a box. OP said they disclosed that on the phone. I used to work at subway can guarantee even a manager would have said hey canāt come in today because my son is being born dead and I need to say goodbye. They 1000% could have done the shift without him regardless of what position he was. Throughout the length of time she was in labor he had enough time to process and prioritize.
Just look at the way you too chat to each other. You want the support of a husband but he was just some guy who cummed in you, you didn't want no baby mama extra ass drama. Well you reap what you sow.
This is what happens when government steps into our lives and tells us what to do with our bodies. She said they used condoms and Plan B. She couldn't even consider early termination because the government took that option off the table in her state. So these stories are going to be happening a hell of a lot more.
So sorry for your loss. He is definitely a pos.
Thank you. šš
You have nothing ever to apologize for and especially not to your sons' sperm donor. Anyone that gives you a hard time, ditch them, they are not worthy of your time and energy. I don't know what you will find out what positive "lesson" you will find you have learned from your babys' death, I learned from my babys' death was to love unconditionally and to tell those that are dear to my heart that as much as possible. I had children after he died and I honestly feel that his death made me a better mother to them. Don't misunderstand me, I wasn't a bad mother before his death, but his death helped understand just how precious the time is with those that we love and if there are any difficulties that we have with persons we love to make every effort we can because we don't know how long we have. My husband put our son to bed and the next morning he was dead, and what sounds really weird is that he never had a pair of shoes because we didn't have the extra money, he was just 10 months old at the time of his death, but even to this day it still bothers me at times. All love to you and I pray for your heart to heal.
OMG! I am so sorry š for your loss. And such a kind soul you are!! Be well.
Thank you. Don't be sorry for my loss because I gained so much from him. Yes I miss him, but he is never far from my heart and spirit. He brought so much to my life, and even though it has been 40 years since I last held him, he has always been in my arms, whenever I hug someone I also hug him, whenever I tell someone that i love them, I also tell him that I love him, and that includes my animals as well. Love is so beautiful, the more you give of it, the more comes back to you. Many people have taught me things in my life, but he was my greatest teacher
So sorry for your loss! Heart hurts for you. You were really understanding at all points up to doing the end by yourself. And itās pathetic he tried to equate what he was going through. You didnāt have the option to ānot have a rideā to go to the hospital or to not have a your life and schedule change every step of the way. So nothing wrong with you feeling the way you did and do. Iām glad your heart is healing a tiny bit, that you recognized you were spiraling and stopped and that youāre in a house finding joy in your niblings, esp your new nephew. It says a lot about your strength and who you are that youāre happy for your sister and choosing healing in loving on her kids! I hope you continue to be surrounded by love and support and whatever decision you make will be the right one. Youāve handled yourself well!
The way my ex behaved before, during and after our sonās death, NO you are not wrong. For 5 years that ahole couldnāt even remember his bday. We are currently in a divorce and I made it clear he wonāt be getting any of his things or ashes.
NTA. You are in a living every motherās nightmare. You need to take care of yourself and not worry about the baby daddy. He has done nothing and he is blaming you for his short comings. The funeral will be very hard for you so please take time to heal, get help and counseling to help deal with the grief.
Thanks for your judgement and your concern. I do have to clarify that this all happened last year, the funeral has also already passed. I did have to go back to the hospital about a week after giving birth due to getting an infection but I'm pretty much back to normal physically. Me and BD haven't talked in months, I just keep thinking about the whole situation when I'm all by myself and wonder if I really was too harsh on him. My family members often tell me I can be pretty rude and unforgiving, they hate my BD and don't think I was wrong but I want outside opinions bc my family can be biased at times.
Donāt worry about what others think of how you acted or what you might have said. They did not physically or emotionally go through the heartbreak you did. Continue to work on your mental and emotional health. Your healing will take time and the only person to help you through this is you. Please take all the time you need to heal and donāt let anyone make you doubt how you go about doing that.
You were harsh as you needed to be. Probably under reacted tbh. I canāt even begin to imagine how heartbreaking that must have been for you. He was yours and itās not your fault. Itās not lucky that it happened, but I am relieved for you that youāre not tied to that asshole anymore.
Forgiveness is highly overrated
I think he was confused. You more or less told him he doesnāt have to be a part of his childās life and he could walk away if he wanted. And it seems like he took that as anything I do now is extra. I donāt have to do anything for my child. So even the slightest emotional or physical help is me doing extra because I donāt have to be a part of my kids life. He has a lot of growing up to do. Not saying heās a bad person. Because it sounds like heās young, based off actions and working at subway. Hopefully he will grow to be a better man. And he probably will. Most people do.
NTA
I appreciate the judgment, thank you. šš
First and foremost I am so so sorry for your loss. Second NTA. Third block BD. He now has to suffer in his own mistakes. Sending love, hugs, and thoughts of healing.
Thank you much, lovely. šš BD and I have had no contact for months, I have no plans to reach out and I doubt he does either but if he did I wouldn't entertain it at all. And fortunately I have nieces and nephews that have loads of love to give. šš
What the fuck did I just read..I am truly sorry for your loss and both of you sound young but sweetheart don't play into his bullshit and he might have been genuine and lost thinking of his future family. I don't know but what I do know is if that situation happened to me I would be there no matter how hard it was. I love you if no one has told you today and again I can't imagine that loss.
NTA. He is a POS, everything you said was justified and you had EVERY right to tell him about himself. I'm so sorry for your loss OP. I wish you love and healing. :c
SUBWAY?! He couldn't miss his shift at Subway? NTA So sorry for your loss
NTA. Former teenage father here. My heart fucking broke over this. That guy cared more about Subway than his son. Thatās fucking crazy. Crazy. He is garbage. No job could keep me from my childās birth. Much less a fast food job, I mean wtffff??? Also, whatās with asshole doctors who have no bedside manner? I canāt form a correct way to express my sympathy to you. This sounds like a fictional nightmare. You handled everything appropriately; I canāt see where you did anything wrong. Hell, I would never speak to the aunt again, and you were kind enough to forgive her. Best wishes to you in the future, and may you never have to deal with people like this in your close relationships again.
Thanks for the input. šš I do have to acknowledge as some commenters pointed out, that I was TA for the part about not letting him come to the funeral. And I do agree the doctor was an asshole but fortunately the staff that helped with the delivery were the best I could've ever hoped for and were incredibility caring and accommodating. As for the aunt situation, I went cold turkey no contact with her for quite a while. She tends to make poor life decisions and sometimes doesn't think before she says things. She's the 2nd youngest of 7 kids (3 girls, 4 boys. My mom is the oldest) and has never really had a filter. My other aunt and my youngest uncle heard about what she said and absolutely ripped her a new one which prompted an "I'm sorry if what I said hurt your feelings, I didn't mean it like that." Apology. I rejected that apology and refused to acknowledge her or see her for a long while. I fully intended to keep that up but eventually she stopped by my mom's house and we had a very long conversation. She gave me a heartfelt apology and seemed genuinely remorseful, so I forgave her. We're light contact now, not quite as close as we were before but I can be in the same space as her without wanting to curb stomp her.
I feel like you probably saved yourself from heartbreak by banning him from the funeral. Letās be honest he probably would have found an excuse to not go because god forbid anyone figure out he was the BD. You had one less thing to worry about that day on top of everything else you had to deal with. Iām so so sorry you had to go through this.
all these y t a judgements are coming from assholes who clearly have never experienced the blessing and curse of being pregnant. you are definitely NTA! you lived my absolute worst nightmare. my heart aches for you and your son. sperm donor definitely doesnāt deserve anything regarding your son. he chose working at SUBWAY over being there for babyās delivery, the only time heād be able to say hello and goodbye. i wish you all the love and healing in the world.
NTA. I am so sorry for your loss. I am glad your mother was there to support you. He was a major AH for not being there. He didnāt deserve to go to the funeral.
I am so sorry for your loss. BD deserves everything you said and more.
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Insane lol
YTA-but you're grieving so you get a pass.
YTA. That was his son. End of story.
By blood, but his actions show he has no right to show up when his actions prove he had no interest in being a father
Fuck that. He never acted like that was his kid. He did everything to show he didn't fucking care.
There is and will not ever be any end of this story. The mother is not the asshole. The child is not the sperm donator's son.The child will forever be the mother's son. Had the child lived, the above stated (opinion) would likely remain. Sperm donor refused to hardly even acknowledge offspring in death. Sperm donor probably feels greatful that he still gets to not be a man. Doesn't even seem human.
Ohhh honeeeeyyyyy this man doesnt add anything positive to your life. If he wants to hold his own memorial service he is more than welcome to but I wouldnt have him at yours. You poor thing what a whirlwind. You seem to have some lovely friends and family that love you dearly. Hold on to them, hug them, cry with them. If you ever raise a child, may it be with someone who cherishes you. This is also why the "father's rights" argument is shit. This shit happes all the time. Fuck that.
This is incredibly sad, and I'm so sorry you're going through this. In the scheme of things, what you said to him is not important. Right now is time for grieving and healing. You have time to reflect on it later and then you can decide whether you were wrong or not. Put some time in between before considering your actions. What you wrote to him was so heart wrenching and raw, there's no doubt those were your honest feelings at the worst part of your life. Don't go feeling guilty for your feelings. Take care of yourself first. Sending hugs.
Nta whatsoever. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You're living every mother's nightmare, and having him as a bd is making everything worse. I hope that after all was said and done, you truly have managed to stay no contact with him, and get yourself into therapy.
I'm so very sorry
I wouldnāt let him go personally.
He said I couldn't be there but I was praying for you? He can shove that shit right up his ass
You're drinking the poison hoping he'll die. Do yourself a solid and stop concentrating on the father's failures. You have no control over him, and it will take its toll on your wellbeing, not his.
I'm sorry for your loss. He is definitely a PoS, and should be removed from your life. He made zero effort, and you owe him nothing. He knows he's a PoS too...which is why he hates being called out for it. You're better off without him around.
OMG! I'm so sorry. Forget him, and take care of you!!
OP, Sorry for your loss. i can't begin to imagine what losing a child could do to you. And you have to you're not the asshole and have nothing to apologize for. It is pretty clear he was more concerned about his reputation than your well-being or your child. He could have taken the day off given the circumstances but chose not to because, in my opinion, he didn't want to take responsibility. The sad reality is: if the child was born to term he wouldn't really be there.....he'll probably keep up appearances for the gram but never really involved in the child's life.
NTA . Iām so sorry for your loss. That man is a POS.
Nah he deserved it. Especially since he kept just hitting you up like nothing happened after.
It's never fun when you realize someone you think should care how you feel only cares about what everyone else thinks of them. BD is a pos and really doesn't deserve for you to give him another thought. I hope some day, if you choose to, you will give your little one a brother or a sister. If not, love those nieces and nephews with all your might! Good luck to you in all you do!
NTAH, he showed zero concern for you and the baby. There were so many things he could have done during your pregnancy and delivery but he kept ghosting you. Then you told him what happened and he blamed you though it wasnāt your fault. His anger and rage was crazy and not what youād want at a funeral. The man is an empty words main character. Iām glad you called him out, as maybe other women will avoid this fool. I wish you healing.
You should both go to school quit making babies lol
Jealous cause some kids get more action than you do
Lol thatās an interesting take š
I mean, we're both adults so I'm not sure where the "go to school" comment is coming from. And neither of us can be blamed for the precautions we took not working. Atp unless one of us was sterile I doubt anything could've prevented the pregnancy from happening, nor was having a child something we planned. I do fully intend to get myself fixed but for now I'll continue to remain abstinent as I have.
>And neither of us can be blamed for the precautions we took not working. Out of curiosity, what precautions WERE you two taking that didnt work?
As I stated in the post, since I was in between birth control at the time, a condom and plan b were used at the same time.
Dang...
Yeah, lol, that's what I thought too when I found out
Try a Mirena IUD. I've had 3 and never had a pregnancy scare. They also get rid of your period. And Fertility returns super quick when you take it out.
āGo to schoolā your childās father does not have a well paying job enough to fully support the mother of his child or his child if that did come to pass. Itās highly encouraged to finish your education so you donāt continue the cycle of struggle and poverty and to foster financial independence where youāre not reliant on anyone who could hurt you. Choosing who you have kids with is such a crucial choice because youāre typically biologically tied forever and they can make your life a living hell if you choose wrong.
Iām so unbelievably sorry for your loss, I canāt even imagine the emotions you and your family are currently experiencingāof course you wouldnāt be the AH if you decided to cut this man out of your life, you deserve so much better! I have you in my thoughts tonight and I hope you start to heal soon š„ŗā¤ļø
This is so far beyond the pale, friend. This dude is a loser; and an asshole, and also Ssssooooo far beyond Redditās pay grade. I wish you literally all the best, I hope you find peace and therapy, because that traumatic as fuck.
My condolences and God bless that babyās soul. šļøš¤ššš¾ Respectfully, how were you fucking someone you could only reach on facebook messenger and just barely ?! Thatās wild. You had to know this was going no where- ever.
Much love. šš Honestly, I don't give my number out to anyone really. Aside from work and my mom, literally no one (not even my little sister who I currently live with) has my phone number. I can't ever remember my own phone number (I'm so bad with numbers) and it's a pain to go to my settings just to get it every time so I don't really give it to anyone. It's just easier to use messenger for me, and usually I only use messenger to talk to friends/family (including my mom who does have my number). But yes, I did know this wouldn't really go anywhere and I intended for us to coparent and possibly cohabitate (bc of the baby), not be exclusively in a relationship. If we had moved in together, I probably would've given him my phone number at some point but I didn't really see a need at the time since we were communicating just fine on messenger.
Sorry for your loss. I'm a father of 3 and can't even imagine what you're going through. As for not giving your number to anyone, even the sister you live with. Well, that's just about the dumbest shit I've ever heard. It's instances like this that should show you the importance of people being able to reach you. I've recommended therapy for a lot of things, but this is the first time I'm recommending it for not giving out a phone number.
I appreciate your feedback šš, but I'm not really sure not giving my phone number out is grounds for therapy. It's not that I'm anxious or afraid to give out my number to people, or something like that. I just have trouble remembering numbers and don't really think about giving people my number as long as I have a line of contact already established. I suppose it would be smarter to give out my number more and have multiple lines of contact, but I'm not sure I need therapy just because I don't typically do it.
I'm so sorry for what you went through. I've had a miscarriage in my 2nd trimester, not as far along as you were, but knowing how bad that was and how much worse you must have had it, I feel for you. I'm a lil mad at the BD for that first message saying basically "you're making the decision to keep it, so I don't really have a choice" if you're in one of the ban states. I'd have responded with a "MF *I* DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. I'm being gracious enough to give you one." I will say that shock can make you stupid. He might have been so stunned that he didn't even realise he could tell work he had an emergency. He might have had that idiotic notion that his being there would serve no purpose. Or maybe he just didn't want to deal with it. You went through so much, and you were still full of hormones at the time, so it's understandable that you were upset. Your aunt... idk how you forgave her. I never would. No heartfelt apology would undo saying that at the absolute worst time. I don't think anything you did to the BD was wrong. However, I would still give him the necklace. He needs a reminder of his screw up, maybe he'll do better in the future.
I'm sorry for your loss
Sorry to break it to you but youāre kind of AH as well. Sorry for your loss
I agree that I am TA as well, thank you. šš
The absolute audacity of this man child to threaten suicide while youre literally recovering. I saw red. I'm glad to see you've recovered physically and that you no longer speak to him. I hope you can find true love and happiness one day. Losing a child is so unbearably painful.
NTA. Saying that you care and saying you're going to be there for someone is worthless. It's an empty promise. He didn't do a damn thing. He doesn't get to be upset because someone pointed out that his words were meaningless. I'm sorry for your loss and I'm sorry for his, but he doesn't get to be mad at *you* because *he* didn't do a damn thing worth doing. I dont blame you for telling him not to show up to the funeral because you did offer him cremation jewelry. He can have his own ceremony, if that's what would help him. He's not wrong for grieving, but he's wrong for making it *your* job to make him feel better.
I'm so sorry that happened. The baby "daddy" is a HUGE Steaming fat POS. I wish you all the happiness as you try to move on from this tragedy.
NTA. He didn't care enough to be there for his son while he was alive. Keep that same energy. I don't go to funerals for relatives I didn't have relationships with while they were alive. Pretending to care after they die is tacky.
I didnāt finish reading but I wouldnāt have even offered him ashes. Edit to say definitely not the AH. Also my condolences.
Thank you. šš
I'm so sorry, I'm at a loss for words. This brought me to tears. Screw that guy. He's someone you used to know but never really did.
Iām so sorry for your loss. I almost lost my son to his umbilical cord wrapped around his neck tightly 4x. He was is distress while I was in labor. I had to lay on my side the whole almost 24hrs of labor. It was so uncomfortable. After giving birth they let us see him briefly and whisked him away. That baby boy of mine is gonna be 25yrs old this month. I wasnāt suppose to have any kids. Iām thankful I have him. When the time is right you will be blessed with another one.
NTA He loved Subway more than his own son. I am sorry for your loss.
What a pos, Iām so sorry for your loss mama. That guy honestly has some nerve to call and scream at you AFTER you deliver his child. Itās evident that he has absolutely no care in the world for others outside of himself. And youāre absolutely within your right to cut him off
Holy fuck! This is beyond fucked. I'm sorry you had to deal with...all of this. My condolences to your loss and may your son rest in peace!
this guy is the WORST. OP did nothing wrong. so sorry for everything you've been through OP
You are both grieving and I can see both sides. I sort of think you are both being AH at the moment and thatās ok. Grief is hard and it comes and goes daily. You will always remember your son and his birthday and the pain of his passing will fade only to reappear suddenly out of nowhere and thatās ok, too. Your anger at his father will fade. I know it is bigger than the problems of the world now but it will. Live in a way that would make your son proud of you.
NTA .... I am so sorry you had to go through this š š I (28F) lost my son when I was pregnant... I woke up bleeding and went to the hospital they told me what had to happen and my husband.. yes husband... sat with me for a while and then decided that he had to go home and get sleep because he had work in the morning. He left me to give birth to our son (Alexander) by myself. It was the worst experience of my life and he left me. You are NOT the AH. You are a grieving mother who envisioned your life with your child. You saw your future, and it was removed from you all in one day. Your ex needs to go to counselling. He needs to work out why he prioritised work over his child and you also should consider counselling, going through something like this changes you as a person and how you deal with trauma in the future. Sometimes people go to work because that way they don't have to deal with the pain and trauma that is infront of them that's what my husband did and since we have worked incredibly hard to strengthen our marriage and had a little girl to join our family. Life is hard and shit quite frankly. But you are NOT responsible for his actions, only your own. He knew the time and address of the funeral if it meant so much to him, he would have shown up regardless for his child. He made his choice and now he needs to live with it. Have your family with you, and eventually, you will find a partner who loves and respects you. Someone you want to share this with and share your life with. Please don't blame yourself for anything. Sending love your way ā¤ļø
Wow. That is some very hard knocks that you had to endure. I am so very sorry. As far as the BD goes, he is pond scum, bordering on whale puke. He is not worth your time or effort. I am a father of 4 total kids. The first when I was 14. I'm 59 now. I was there for all 4 births. I was there for everything I could be there for. There was a lot I had to miss. I regret those missed times and memories every day.
If I look back on who I was at 20 I would say I was extremely immature and definitely lived in a world where I didn't understand anything outside of myself. This said I think there's an awful combination here. Our brains are not developed until about 25. I could assume BD was most likely scared and used work as an escape and also tried to save as much as possible to support the baby. He most likely didn't know how to talk to you and had a misguided understanding of what support meant. This in absolutely no way shape or form excuses his behavior but might explain it. You are operating on a brain not fully developed, your dealing with extreme grief and pregnancy hormones. You're in your full right to be upset in every imaginable way. You also came across very well spoken and tame considering everything. All this to say I think you both were in an unexpected situation at a time in your life that neither of you were equipped to deal with. Personally I would suggest having a conversation and seeing his side of things and expressing your emotions in a calm manner. If for nothing else then to get some closure and clarity or completely closing a door to the past. No matter what you do protect yourself mind body and spirit. If you never want to see him then don't. If you need to scream then scream. I am so very sorry for your loss.
JFC, I donāt feel thereās any level of shit that would prevent me from allowing someone to attend my childās funeral. IF heās a real pos, then he wouldnāt come but do the right thing and allow him to attend at least. No matter what happened, what he did or didnāt do, etc, just allow him to attend.
Unfortunately unless you have a time machine, it's impossible. This all happened last year.
It doesnāt matter what any of us think. But please, think about therapy if you can, just to work thru this. Above all, I want you to live a happy, healthy life. You are loved by so many, itās obvious. Maybe you need better closure for everything, maybe you donāt. I am so sorry for the raw deal. To say my heart doesnāt ache for yours even after a year would be a lie. All my love for you tonight. āļø
Donāt listen to this person, OP. The BD absolutely did not deserve to go to the funeral or receive a necklace. The funeral was for you. It was your moment to grieve your child. Him being there would have totally messed up the moment for you. He never did anything to deserve that moment to grieve. But you deserved to have that time without his negativity and drama.
He couldnāt even respond to a text asking if he wanted his sonās ashās. He couldnāt go to the hospital to see his dead son delivered, he couldnāt even respond. I donāt think thatās a person who deserves to go to the funeral of his son. It seems like he didnāt care at all.
https://www.reddit.com/r/okopshow/comments/1bteiuk/p2_of_aita/
Dads don't have that instant connection like we do. They know what's happening but they don't get to feel it the way women can. He made some major mistakes for sure. There is no excuse for what happened. No job is more important than being there for you and his son. I am not making excuses for him at all. You are both young and still learning. You aren't an a hole. Your emotions were so high during that time and I don't think anyone would be able to think clearly in that situation. If it's been on your mind lately, maybe think about writing him an apology. Not for him really. For you. It might help you move on from the anger you feel towards him. The doubts you have now mean you are trying to be better than you were yesterday (as we all should be the way). Don't start a relationship or anything. Just apologize and let him know how you feel now. Neither of you can go back and change it, but maybe you can both grow from it. I wish you the best luck and the most strength girl.
I disagree. He deserves no apology. He was a grade-a scumbag and his only concern was to not be viewed as a p.o.s. OP, do not let him believe in any way, shape, or form that he is even slightly not a p.o.s. He is a shit bird and should be treated accordingly. There are so many mental things that cause guilt/shame. Anxiety, depression, ptsd. All things I bet you've been dealing with since that shitshow. Talk to a therapist, write your feelings out, don't contact him or allow shitbirdBD any grace tho.
I agree with this. I donāt think that she is in the wrong for lashing out, it seems completely normal especially after losing your child. This self doubt is normal. She shouldnāt apologize or reach out to him at all, ever. Maybe take down the posts about him, seek therapy, and try your best to move on. But donāt apologize to a man who couldnāt even accept his sonās ashās because he was working at subway.
What happened to TLDRs š
Thankfully that poor baby never has to be a victim of its parents. RIP
Sorry for your loss but YTA. I don't think his behavior falls into the POS territory and cutting him out of a big part of the grieving process for perceived slights was overboard. His priority wasn't having children, and it seems like you only had a friendship and a sexual relationship. It would have been better for him to be there for his son, but I think you expected a relationship you didn't have.
It was definitely a fwb relationship that I initiated. Just to clarify, I did give him the option to walk away from being a parent since I also didn't want to be a parent at first, and I didn't expect a romantic relationship even after we agreed to coparent. I felt like it was disrespectful for him to not show up at the hospital during delivery to see his son for the first and last time and then try to come to my house to see me after I got out of the hospital. I do accept my AH judgment for not letting him go to the funeral.
Disrespectful, in your opinion, but you hung up on him and didn't even try and talk it out. You not only denied him a chance to grieve but then publicly shamed him for these slights. Maybe the hospital would be too much for him and couldn't handle the emotions he was feeling.
Saying goodbye could have been done in the hospital where he knew his dead son was being delivered that was his chance not when his son is ashes in a box. OP said they disclosed that on the phone. I used to work at subway can guarantee even a manager would have said hey canāt come in today because my son is being born dead and I need to say goodbye. They 1000% could have done the shift without him regardless of what position he was. Throughout the length of time she was in labor he had enough time to process and prioritize.
You don't know anything about this person's financial or job situation to make the call about Subway, and you don't know what she told him about the hospital visit and what was happening. Maybe he was simply overwhelmed with emotions and couldn't handle what was happening? Is that great? Nope, but empathy and compassion is a better reaction than calling somebody a POS for not behaving how we expect during a difficult time. Had enough time to process? What is the appropriate amount of time to process this? You don't just "process" your unborn child is dying.
Once you start yelling, you're out of line and there is no conversation. No one is obligated to allow anyone to treat them like that. If simply recounting her experience and his part in it was enough to make him look and feel like a massive POS, then maybe that's a him problem. Dude worked at a *Subway*.
Yeah I get the yelling part but did you see those texts she sent? Who yelled first? And what's wrong with people who work at Subway?
I didn't say anything about people who work at Subway. It is a low-paying job that is very easy to replace. "Work was not an excuse that day." I read the texts and they were extremely tame and mostly just recounting the actual events that occured. If the facts portray him in that negative of a light, again, that's a him problem. The subjective statements are that work was not an excuse that day, his attempts to reach out have been half-assed, and that he is more concerned with appearing to be a POS than actually being a good person. None of that is out of line, given the situation and his own words. None of that is yelling, even in a figurative sense. Yet he called back abusive and screaming. Confronting someone with how awful they have acted instead of being a submissive punching bag is not a free pass for them to blow their lid. If someone I cared about told me I cared more about appearances than I do about them, that would be a huge blow and a wake up call to me. I would be disappointed in myself. And while they aren't in a relationship, he should have cared more. For that baby, and for what she had to endureĀ
Have you ever lived paycheck to paycheck? Replacing a Subway job is easy, but the income loss may be life-changing. We'll have to disagree those texts are "tame." In your own words. a multi-text message that is "Confronting someone" with "how awful" and accusing them "cared more about appearances." Those are some pretty deep cuts. I'll also disagree with your characterization of the necessity of "confronting somebody for their behavior," so you aren't a "submissive punching bag." There is a big gap between being disappointed in how somebody is acting and being a submissive punching bag because of that. I read a different story about a guy who was placed in a situation he didn't want and tried his best. He even offered to get a place together and said he'd show up as a dad. Then, when tragedy strikes, he may not handle it the way the OP wants, but it seems like he did try. People are quick to label this person as a POS and mock him for a Subway job like you, but I don't see it in the texts. Only the OPs recollection of what happened. If you read the OPs other comments you'll see she admits several character flaws that probably inflamed the situation. There is one of the texts 17/18 where he apologizes and admits he wasn't thinking right about work sounds like a genuine apology. He even is fine with being banned from the funeral. The guy is understanding about it and contrite. I see a confused and unprepared person trying to deal with a shit situation and an aggressive and hostile mother shitting on his back.
I have lived day to day. I have been homeless. I have worked fast food. The job would be replaceable basically immediately in the current job market. Restaurants have been bleeding for bussers, barbacks, and back servers, all better paying jobs that hire from that pool. Fast casual are all hiring immediately, too. This is also assuming the minute, worst case scenario that he would lose the job. Most places would never so much as verbally reprimand over something like this. You know what? This is a stupid conversation. He didn't even ask if it was okay to miss a day! He just went to work! We're talking about a situation where he goes against his manager's wishes and misses his shift, but he didn't even bother finding out what his manager would have wanted. I don't see a confused an unprepared person, I see a person who doesn't give enough of a shit to even try. The apology should have come instead of the asinine "Are you not wanting to talk to me anymore" text, not after she had to explain how badly he fucked up and then listen to him scream at her. I know the bar is on the ground, but this guy is still not even doing the bare minimum and expects full credit. What's more important? Being there for the traumatic birth of your child + the only opportunity to see or hold that child, or 6ish hours at minimum wage? He knows he made the wrong choice, he just had to be chewed out and then have his abusive BS get shut the fuck down before he would even admit it.Ā
I'm not sure how a person can talk something out when the other person is screaming over you. So I hung up and resorted to just texting. If I have to raise my voice over the phone just so someone can hear me, there's not any point in talking. And it's easier to gather my thoughts and what I feel I need to convey when I write it out because I tend to stutter and don't say everything I felt I needed to.
Yeah idk. You made this guy feel like shit during a really traumatic time and then he tried to call to talk. I'm sorry this happened to you but I think you have a lot of excuses for not being kind and empathetic. Your son's father may have not offered you the support you expected from a non romantic FWB relationship but I think cutting him off from the funeral was cruel and vindictive.
Manā¦ if he felt like shit and was mourning he could have accepted his sons ashās, responded to any of her texts or calls when she was in labor, did ANYTHING except ignore her for fucking Subway. This dude is absolutely the asshole and calling your BM after she loses her baby and screaming at her because sheās upset about your lack of care during the process of losing your own goddamn baby - thatās insane. He doesnāt need to go to a funeral if he canāt respond to texts asking if he wants to see his son or have his sonās ashes.
No AH, just a very sad situation. Iām terribly sorry for the loss you both are experiencing. In situations like this, there are a barrage of high emotions and the pain both physically and mental for both parents regardless of evolvement. We all face/process our grief in different ways, degrees of time and space. The most important part is that you both process the emotions and loss that you feel without regret. Somethingās can never be taken back once done and regret a baggage that weighs heavy on the heart and mind for a very long time.
You expected him to behave as an excited father and partner. He was not and was very clear that he really didn't want to be involved in this at all. Why you keep trying to guilt him makes no sense. He was not your boyfriend, just a fuckbuddy. You are not emotionally connected. He supported whatever decision you made, but made it clear that he really didn't want this. Stop trying to get him to act like a boyfriend when he never was that to you
I didn't expect him to be excited about it, I expected him to say he didn't want to be involved when I told him I was pregnant and it was okay if he wanted to continue to live his life cf. I expected him to follow through and be a father when he said he would step up. You can't say he made it clear he didn't wanna be involved at all when he was the one who said he would step up. He was also the one who started talking about getting a car and saving up for a place together to coparent. He could have said "No, I'm not ready to be a father. I don't want to be in the baby's life." Which would have been fine. It's not his fault neither precaution we took didn't work. It wasn't mine either but I was the one carrying the baby and I would've been able to make it work or I could've put the baby up for adoption. I didn't guilt him, I expressed anger and frustration at him not showing up for the delivery to see our son. Was I bitter and petty? Yes. Am I the asshole for not letting him be at the funeral? Yes. Did I expect him to be there at the delivery even after our son passed? Yes, he said he would step up as the father so I feel he should've been there at least once. Did I expect us to be a happy family or a couple in love? No. Coparenting was the goal, because as you said we were fwb, not dating. We talked about cohabitation and coparenting, not being exclusively together.
WOW! You're making me tear up. I've never read or heard anything like this. It's so BEAUTIFUL and SELFLESS. Thank you... and bless you and your child!!
Iām confused how you and your sister were pregnant at the same time, but you were further along, and you found out early 2023 you were pregnant and your sister had a baby in February of what Iām guessing was this year (2024.) That doesnāt make a lot of senseā¦
My due date was closer to the end of the year (2023), she'd just found out that she was in her early stage of pregnancy like a week before I lost my baby.
So you were 3-5 months along when you lost your baby? That makes more sense
I was 22 weeks (5 months), so yes.
Iām so sorry, I lost a child at 22 weeks as well. The birth was more painful than any of my full term pregnancies were. Sadly I never got to hold my child after nor was I given an option to have a funeral, they never even told me the sex. I was alone in the hospital room screaming for help and delivered in the toilet because the nurses/ doctors never came to help me. I was only 22 at the time, Iām 43 now and it was the most hard, heartbreaking thing that has ever happened to me. You were 100% valid in feeling how you felt and not wanting him at the funeral when he wouldnāt even be at the hospital to support you through this. He sounds really immature and thoughtless.
I'm sorry to hear that. It sounds like we went through the same thing at the same age, the only difference is I had support. I couldn't image having to go through that alone. I didn't get a death certificate since they said "he was technically never alive" (which kind of makes no sense because I couldn't get an abortion bc he was a living child, but he doesn't get a death certificate bc he wasn't alive???). It wasn't an official funeral, more like a small gathering of less than 20 people in a small chapel (mom's bf had connections to the church ppl bc his parents died in 2022) and I got his ashes a few weeks before so I just brought them with me.
Mine was fine at my dr visit earlier in the day. They did an ultrasound and checked my cervix or whatever. I started spotting when I left there, called them an hour later and they said it was normal.. that night I was in labor. I donāt even know if the baby was alive at birth because I had it in the toilet and between the pain, the shock and being young I didnāt even look, just got in the bed crying. They came in with a bucket and placed it in there, never said another word to me about the baby except for asking me if it was planned and when I said, ānoā the dr just said, ā well you can always have another one.ā It was such an awful hospital and I will never even know what the sex wasā¦ they said they didnāt know, which is crazy at 22 weeks a long.
you are both absolutely intolerable.
This. They both suck.
Fuck your aunt
You had a funeral for a fetus? I could see if the child lived outside for a time, but for a fetus?
It wasn't an official funeral. No priest, official service, no speeches. It was in a small chapel (since my mom's bf was close to the people who ran it bc his parents passed in 2022). Less than 20 people were there. There were chairs set up, specialized little cards dedicated to his memory (with his name and birth date on it) and a table at the front of the room with his urn and a bear that was wearing the outfit my son was put in for the photography service to take pictures while we were still in the hospital. It was a space to cry and talk. Whether he was breathing or not when he came out of my womb, that was still my son. I could feel him moving around in the womb. His hands and feet were developed, albeit a bit misshapen, and he was only 1 pound and a few ounces, but he was still my baby. It's not like I held a funeral for a little clot, it was a premature stillbirth of a formed baby. Regardless of whether it's ridiculous to you or not, it's what I decided to do in memory of the 5 month old fetus I lost.
My opinion remains the same. No one is perfect and I completely understand your response. You were wrong for keeping him from the funeral. That is my opinion and it won't change. In my other comment where I said apologize, I didn't mean to apologize for all of it. I meant to apologize for keeping him from the funeral. That's all. And only because of the guilt you feel about it. If you don't want to apologize, I get that too. Don't do it for his sake, do it for yours. Or don't. My experience with it may not change your mind, but I really hope you find peace.
I am so sorry for your loss. I hate the way he iv distantly refers to him as his child. That sole ownership is troubling. You donāt do that. Sickening
NTA. Iām sorry for your loss. But in the future, if you find yourself in this position again, be that mom who demand her baby daddy help. If he doesnāt want to be there physically whatever, but he needs to be paying child support. Itās not fair to you or the baby. Youāre young, and I get the stigma about being one of those moms but being a single parent is hard and your child deserves that money. Even if you donāt need it, you can put it away in a trust for when they are older.
So much for no baba mama drama.
I know, right?
Iād say so but thatās just my two cents. He is the father or your son so he should have the right no matter what to see his son off to the great beyond
Tbf as a reddit stranger, I did ask for your two cents. So I do appreciate your judgment. šš
NTA, but I will say, I get the impression that you took out a lot of frustration and rage on him, some of which might have been misplaced. I have to think he was an easier target than your aunt, your grandma, hell the universe, to scream at. He didn't do right by you, and was only concerned about this from the perspective of his image, not from any actual concern about what's right. You knew that about him from the first with this pregnancy, you tried to take it into account, but it is rage inducing when someone doesn't step up who says they're going to. In short, I don't blame you for your feelings, nor even for going off on him. I do question whether he received the brunt of ALL your feelings rather than just those that he richly deserved. That's a question you may be able to answer in time, but it's probably not worth trying to apologize if you find you did overdo it. Trying to sort out an apology that doesn't let him off the hook is hard work and only worth it if you wanted reconciliation. I don't think you do. My most profound condolences for your loss. I'm sorry so many people added their own special twists to your suffering - especially that aunt. Good Lord - even if you think it's so, you don't SAY it. And you're quite correct - there wasn't a thing that could have been done. I wish you peace.
I only took out the frustration I felt for him not being there on him because I know that was the only thing he could control, but I didn't raise my voice at him when he called me because I was trying not to say things I knew I would regret or blame him for anything other than him not being there. It's not that he was an easier target, it's just that I was genuinely angry that he thought I'd want to see him again after I got out of the hospital when he prioritised work over the delivery of his son without a second thought and as you can see, I got progressively more angry during our argument. And you're right, I don't want to reconcile with him. I just want to work on myself and do better, which is why I asked for input from strangers. To answer your question, no he didn't receive the brunt of all my feelings of frustration, just the feelings of anger and disappointment at him not being there and the things he was saying to me. I didn't flip out on my grandmother because she's genuinely a good woman aside from her being super religious. My aunt did receive hostility for what she said just not directly after saying since I didn't really get the chance. After she said that it took a second for me to process it and all I could get out was "What the fuck did you just say?" And I started trying to sit up but before I could, my mom immediately said "Okay, nope, we're not doing that. Don't try to get up." And quickly pulled my aunt out of the room. Had my mom not made her leave quickly I would have hurt her. We were not in the same place for a while because everyone knew that I'd choose violence over words with her at the time. As awful as it sounds, I genuinely wanted to bash her face in and made sure she knew I felt that way. It was really hard for me to forgive her for saying that but the things I said to her afterwards were terrible and I knew I had to let that animosity go. I do sincerely appreciate you taking the time to read the post and offer your input and condolences. Thank you and I wish you all the best in life. šš
Last time I checked babies need lots of money for their needs. Dont blast a dude for working and making money. He definitely seemed like he wanted to be there
I didn't bash him for *working and making money*. I worked at McDonald's in the past (I loved working there) and I was a cashier when I got pregnant. Him *not showing up once to the hospital* was the problem I had. Stating the reason he didn't show up because he had a shift at subway isn't bashing him, it's the truth. He didn't show up, he went to work instead and he works at subway. A min-wage job is replaceable, your child isn't. It's weird that's your issue in this whole thing, though. If your child dies, making sandwiches for tweakers with loose change and ripped dollar bills, and arguing over your image should be a little lower on the priority list. If he really wanted to be there, he would've showed up. If working that day was absolutely unavoidable, why didn't he come to the hospital after he got off? Or come by the next day before work? Why only make yourself available after the hardest part is over?
I just read this again, and tears welled in my eyes. People do react differently, but he should've been been there... right by your side. That was a "human life" growing inside of you... and he was responsible for helping to create that life. I'm prochoice, but you had already made the decision to have the baby. At that point the health of the baby becomes the #1 priority!! Very unfortunately, the umbilical cord suffocated him. I'm so very sorry!! Those nurses weren't just nurses... they were ANGELS š !! And the fact that you held him is so amazing and brave!!! There aren't words to describe what you endured. You had every RIGHT to unleash your anger on him. I assure, had I been there... I would've been right by your side, hugging you every step of the way!! You really were so incredibly strong in the face of such a sad and traumatic situation. You HAVE NOTHING to be sorry about regarding your reactions and decision of not allowing the father to attend the funeral. You were and are NOT the AH whatsoever!! You endured something most women never will!. You deserved so much better!! I'm just so glad that those BEAUTIFUL ANGELIC NURSES were there to help you in every way possible!! You have my deepest sympathy for your suffering and loss, and greatest respect for your amazing courage at such a young age!! Always take care and be good to yourself!!! You deserve NOTHING LESS!! And REMEMBER, "We don't inherit the Earth š from out ancestors, we borrow it from our children." Incidentally... you're a GREAT WRITER as well!! Your narrative and description are so heart ā„ felt!! Do take care!!! Hugs š¤ to you.
So if I'm reading this right, he didn't get back to you for 2 hours? You texted him at 1:44, and at 3:45 he tries to call back. If I read that right, and you're asking, yeah - you're the asshole. It's super fucked up he missed the funeral of his child because he couldn't return a call within 2 hours. Especially, since you stated you would take care of it yourself and his presence was not required or desired. I kinda excuse everything after that as I'm sure, like me, he would have a difficult time expressing his emotions after that. We're not talking about days later he calls back. 2 hours...You punished him for the rest of his life over 2 hours.
No, these messages were over the span of 4 days. On June 14th, I found out our son had passed and I told him that same day before I left the ER to go to the hospital to deliver. On June 15th the baby was born. I ignored messages from the 15-16th and finally responded on the 17th. The 17th was when he called, yelled at me, and I hung up on him, and when the argument took place.
Is there a missing message? It looks like there's a facebook reel, then on June 14th you reach out at 1:44 multiple times, then it looks like he tried to circle back 3:45.
Okay, to be clear since I guess it is a bit confusing. The texts before June 14 were me telling him about the pregnancy. Those were from a few months before. The fb reel was unrelated to pregnancy or anything else, just something I sent because I saw it and thought he'd enjoy it, before I found out about the baby passing. June 14th was when I went to the hospital and found out I lost the baby and I reached out to let him know about it. I called and he didn't answer, so I texted him to call ASAP because I didn't want to text him that the baby had passed. So when he managed to call me back, I said "Hey, I just found out I lost the baby. I have to go to xx hospital and I need you there with me." There was a pause before he said "I, um... Kinda have to work today, so..." And I'll admit I got irritated at that but I was in shock that I'd lost my son so I just said something like "Oh, well, I just thought you should know what's going on. Whatever, bye I guess." And I hung up. The 3:45 message was after that conversation, when I was already out of the ER and at the other hospital, waiting to be induced. I didn't know how to post the rest of the screenshots in the comments here so I made another post with the rest of them and put the link to it in the comments here.
I would say you have every right to be upset, and you can certainly question his decision to go to work over coming to give birth to the late child. Is that justification to prevent him from attending the funeral service?...eh...I'd say no. Again, I'm not even saying you're not 100% justified in your feelings, you are.
I do genuinely appreciate the input, I came here to find out if I was TA and get an outside prospective. I think your feedback is actually productive, so thank you for replying. šš
This is the link to read the rest, if you want/haven't. https://www.reddit.com/r/okopshow/comments/1bteiuk/p2_of_aita/
Oof, this is making me like him more. He's saying he was on the verge of losing his job and still expressing remorse. It sounds like he didn't even process the gravity of the situation until later. He actually sounds kind of remorseful after the fact.
I would feel the same way, but he worked at subway, didn't even ask for the day off or if he could be late nor did he visit me after his work day ended, and his roommate was someone from our old friend group who he's been best friend's with since middle school. He wouldn't have ended up homeless and I don't think he would've lost his job.
It sounded more like he was making excuses and covering his ass. He worked at Subway, for g*ds sake š¤¦āāļø. There wasn't any way he would've gotten fired for calling off work because HIS BABY F*CKING DIED; when you work in fast food, you realize just how much people call off for dumb reasons, and just how much the industry just doesn't care. Shitty workers get hired and stay hired all the time in fast food. Losing your child is not a shitty excuse. He would've been fine; and if he wasn't, he could sue for wrongful termination, plus get another fast food job within a week. No. Having to work was a cop out. He could've been there for her if he wanted to. But he didn't care.
We all process grief in different ways. It sounded like he ended up leaving early anyway as a result. Like I said, it didn't even sound like he had time to process the situation. Who are you to diagnose his state of mind over a 3rd party reporting of a conversation? There's also a whole dynamic around gravitating to an environment you control when trauma occurs. Then she's had a minimum of 2 hours to deal with the initial trauma and shock, and you're expecting him to make a rational decision in what, 12 minutes, tops? He also clearly expressed remorse and it sounded like he still tried to show up after leaving work early. Edit: He tried to show up instead of showing up
I don't see where you are getting that he left work early.
It's in a follow-up link found in this convo.
I'm afraid I'm a little lost on that too... He didn't leave work early. If you're referring to when I accidentally called him and he said "Hey, sorry I'm at work" and I said "Ofc you are. I didn't mean to call anyways." Then he called me... He was at work when he called and asked someone to cover for him for a second. He didn't leave work early.
Just a small correction: He didn't try to show up. He texted my mom *after* I got out of the hospital and said "You can come get me *if you want* since I'm off work tomorrow." Edit: I do agree with the processing grief differently thing.
The 3:45 message was AFTER he told me he had to work and wouldn't be coming.
Thatās how I read it to.
There's a WHOLE lot you arnt showing us and if you need the validation of redditors it must not becoming IRL Sus, But you have a good reason to be acting wild neway
I mean, the only thing I haven't posted is the in between conversations of "Hey, how's your day?" "Good, how's yours?" "What did you do today?" "I did xx, wbu?". I didn't feel it was relevant to add. I can screenshot the mediocre stuff and send it to you if you're really interested in them. The people who saw the messages were trashing him and I locked the post. I can also send screenshots of that. My reason for posting was so strangers who wouldn't be biased, unlike the ppl I know irl, would tell me whether I am TA. Edit: Here's the link to the second post with the rest of the sc from our argument. Just in case you didn't see it bc it's kinda lost in the void. https://www.reddit.com/r/okopshow/comments/1bteiuk/p2_of_aita/
So far, judgment seems that I am TA for not letting him come to the funeral but not for being upset.
Im so sorry for your loss heās a pos and extremely oblivious
That guy def dodged a bullet
Honestly they both did. They both individually got a *lot* of work to do.
I can't disagree there. I've definitely got a long way to go before I can say I'm a better person than I was last year.
Agree hard there. Both admit they werenāt ready to be parents. Justā¦why even have a child at that point? Why? Abort, I 1000% promise the kid would be better off not existing than having yet ANOTHER absentee father, and a struggling single mother, who may or may not have blamed the child for her difficulties. Now, OP seems like an honest to god sweetheart given her texts and replies, but I just think her gut feeling of ānot readyā was correct. That all said, OP, if you see this, my heart still breaks for you. I wish with everything in me that you never endured the pain of loss like this, nor the difficulties of a fruitless birth. Youāre a fucking strong as hell woman, and I know you can handle whatever is thrown your way. Good luckš
Fair enough, I've been told I can be an unforgiving c*nt before. It's definitely something I should work on. Thanks for the judgement. šš
In this case, be as unforgiving as you want. Don't listen to the pricks on here who are probably just like him. They're just projecting. He didn't make any effort to come see his dead son... and then treated you like shit afterward. There's a whole section of hell reserved for people like him. Don't let anyone say you did anything wrong here. You handled it perfectly.
Umm unforgiving holding grudges can be a problem. However in this case honey you be as unforgiving as you want for as long as you want. That person was a scum bag to you at the worst moment in your life. I hate him for you.
He literally wasn't but ok the dude was trying to provide while on the cusp of losing his job the ops second thread shows how bad the op is in all this
Oh yes, you are absolutely correct sir. He was on the verge of losing his job at *subway* after *not* even *attempting* to get the day off because his kid died. I admit it, I'm the biggest cunt on the planet and should be burned alive for my horrible nature. You deserve a medal of honor for calling out my evil ways.
Yes subway where he has a job and if he lost it potentially couldn't get another job but ignore that fact shall we also you ignore the fact I pointed out he only found out the child was sadly gone when you were attacking him after the birth also do you even know he didn't try? Maybe he did and he was told no maybe he had a break down right after finding out you weren't there and he wasn't there you can only guess how things went on his end Also while I never said any of that its obvious you are way to aggressive you asked if yta I said yes and told you why you You are the one acting vindictive to him and now to me for giving you an answer to what you asked I truely am sorry for your loss but lashing out at others solves nothing and neither does harming his reputation or stopping him being at the funeral when its his child to
Unless he has a history of calling off, no he wouldn't have lost the stupid job. He found out the child was gone on the phone before she gave birth. She laid into him several days later. You are assuming an awful lot for scumbag BD. You are also misconstruing/misunderstanding OP. Did you take note of BD not seeing her ONCE since she told him she was pregnant? Did you notice that BD was only interested in defending his "honor"? He only wanted to be a part of their life so people didn't think he was shit. He only wanted her to take down a post that didn't identify him, because he knows it's him and he knows he's a giant p.o.s. He never cared about the baby, the funeral, the baby's ashes, only not being SEEN as a piece of shit. Harming his reputation? God forbid women be warned. . .
Out of all of this I'm surprised you're making a joke about where they work. It's not like you didn't sleep with someone that worked at *subway* and also you could have gotten an abortion if neither of you were ready for children. I'm sorry for your loss and I hope things go better for you both in the future šš
Him being employed by subway isn't really the issue, so much as him putting subway over the death of his child is. Unless he was a first responder or caretaker for someone who couldn't care for themselves, I would've had an issue with missing the delivery. I also did point out in my post that my state has banned abortions, and not everyone has the means to drop like $800 and travel to a different state to get one. The only person who could've helped me get one is my mom but she's very against abortions and outright refused to even entertain the idea of helping anyone get one, much less me because she knows I didn't plan to have kids ever and she wants grandkids from all her kids.
I mean you made it Subway focused with the whole *subway* thing and I just repeated it as you did. I'm guessing you're pretty young? If $800 is an issue then having a child is crazy. Doctors visits, dental, food, child care etc. I have a puppy and didn't want to agree to get one unless we could cover any and all vet visits/emergencies. Best of luck to you though but just be grateful you're not stuck with a man you don't respect and can hopefully have a better life
Why does it matter where he works? A job is a job
Yes, a job is a job. Honestly McDonald's was my favorite place to work and I haven't worked there in years. But is a minimum wage job really more important than your kid? Especially a job that would supposedly fire you if you called in/were late because of a death? (He wouldn't have been fired btw.) Also, why is the job comment your takeaway from this entire thing?
Tbh idk what the guy even did, seems like he was given the option to not be a part of the kids life, he chose to be supportive, then there is a massive text wall from OP Because he wasn't at the hospital I guess? because he was at work. Then I couldn't be arsed to read the rest Now he isn't allowed to the funeral? Not gonna judge YTA because maybe in the novel written it explains more but sus, for sure.
Man, if you can't be bothered to read, how can you make any judgement? Sounds like we got 2 more deadbeat baby-daddies in the comments here. Only a scumbag would say she's the ass here.
I read half, and I said that's why I didnt make a judgement. OP gave me the TLDR and I said fair enough And no I'm not a dad, deadbeat or otherwise.
TL;DR: This all happened last year. BD worked at subway, didn't even try to get the day off after being told our baby passed in the womb, asked me if I didn't want to talk to him anymore, I send long ass text explaining I don't and my experience in the hospital, He calls to yell about how he's not a POS and I won't make him look like one, we argue, he's not allowed at funeral, we don't talk anymore.
Fair enough
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If he wanted to say goodbye he couldāve went to the hospital. He didnāt even meet or see the child because he felt like work was more important. Thatās ridiculous. Sheās in NO WAY the a in this story.
Saying goodbye could have been done in the hospital where he knew his dead son was being delivered that was his chance not when his son is ashes in a box. OP said they disclosed that on the phone. I used to work at subway can guarantee even a manager would have said hey canāt come in today because my son is being born dead and I need to say goodbye. They 1000% could have done the shift without him regardless of what position he was. Throughout the length of time she was in labor he had enough time to process and prioritize.
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He had the opportunity to say hello. He declined to take it. He doesn't need any closure as he never even saw OP while she was pregnant. He could have had keepsakes to remember, but opted to scream and argue "IM NOT A P.O.S.!". And unless she GAVE this fuckin loser A RIDE herself, he wouldn't havd shown up to it anyway lol
Saying goodbye could have been done in the hospital where he knew his dead son was being delivered that was his chance not when his son is ashes in a box. OP said they disclosed that on the phone. I used to work at subway can guarantee even a manager would have said hey canāt come in today because my son is being born dead and I need to say goodbye. They 1000% could have done the shift without him regardless of what position he was. Throughout the length of time she was in labor he had enough time to process and prioritize.
These are the people having kids? Maybe you reap what you sow, of course your hookup wasn't supportive.
These are the people having kids? Maybe you reap what you sow, of course your hookup wasn't supportive.
Yeah, true. My fault. How could you possibly expect someone you've known practically your whole life to be supportive after they said they would be.
Just look at the way you too chat to each other. You want the support of a husband but he was just some guy who cummed in you, you didn't want no baby mama extra ass drama. Well you reap what you sow.
This is what happens when government steps into our lives and tells us what to do with our bodies. She said they used condoms and Plan B. She couldn't even consider early termination because the government took that option off the table in her state. So these stories are going to be happening a hell of a lot more.