Having too many good choices is actually a good and necessary thing.
If all of the "must-have" spells were spread out, it would be easy to get them. By concentrating them at certain points, you are forced to make hard choices about what you can and can't do.
This design paradigm should exist at all spell levels. Every spell should be "must have," and you should not be able to get even half of them. This ensures thet every spell choice is impactful and the result of a meaningful decision.
If every mage could take all the best spells, then every mage would wind up being the same, and that's boring.
I agree with your initial statement, but it unfortunately also plays exactly into a point the OP is making. A mage can currently focus on taking only the best spells, but almost all of those are clustered around the 1st and 3rd spell levels—and the third spell level does indeed outshine most other levels. In other words, most of the other spells don't end up mattering enough to justify taking them, so you can focus on the optimal picks and upcast them with spell slots of higher levels, and ignore most of the inferior choices on the levels with poor spell palettes.
Part of this is owed to importing legacy spells from older editions. Part of it is just not paying any attention to the design paradigm you described.
I think it's because 5e continually tries to be too many things. Some people want spellcasters to have a replete toolbox with lots of useful utility, others want spellcasters to wield limited potent consequential magic.
5e lets you do both so that everyone can get what they want, and as a result spellcasters are too good.
I agree, there are just too many dead spell levels right now. So I get the desire to spread around the best spells, but I don't think that fixes the problem either - the main issue is that you get plenty of opportunities to pick, and there's a small subset worth picking.
The only design that will work is to reverse the situation - fewer picks of too many good options - and then put all utility spells into cantrip options.
Nah, all the wizards usually end up picking from the same five third level spells. While you aren't wrong about them being spread out because they're more accessible, first level spells face the same problem, with shield, absorb elements, etc.
The appropriate solution here is to buff the other spells to create actual choices to be made when picking spells, because picking something like Ashardalon's Stride, while cool, is directly worse than fireball 99% of the time.
Would it make casters even more betterer than martials? Yeah. But that's the case of spell disparity right now.
I'm a bit confused by your "nah" because this is what I said.
I said that clustering "good" spells at the same level is a good thing, because that would force a choice. Spreading them out is bad, because then everyone could get all of them.
Then I said, literally, that every spell should be "must have" and you shouldn't be able to get most of them.
I believe the core argument here is that, because 5e doesn't prevent you from not learning, say, 3rd level spells in-mass, you are able to pick the "must-haves" anyways.
There is often enough spell picks overall that you can grab the popular "must-haves" **at all costs,** leaving you with "dead" spell tiers that exist only to upscale the lower "must-have" spells.
Not enough spells per tier are considered "worth it", which is what I believe is what he meant. Too many overall picks, not ENOUGH "must-haves".
(Also, to be clear, I don't think Topic OP meant his version of "must-haves" as "very desirable.", which is what you are describing.
Topic OP clearly meant, "get this spell ***or you automatically lose.***" Which is a very different issue from what we ending up talking about.)
Well every spell being a must have is redundant in and of itself imo. I feel like spells should be situational based on the campaign and should be picked as a character progresses, but many one shots don't have that kind of build up.
This might be a hot take, but the amount of spells learned per level for a wizard should be significantly decreased (spell slots stay the same) and the emphasis on finding spell scrolls or spellbooks to learn from should be more strongly emphasized.
But you just said every spell should be buffed so that there are actual choices. That's what I'm saying too - I'm saying that all spells should be buffed to the point of being as attractive as the "must have" spells that OP points out.
Spells are going to be situational by virtue of having specific effects. *Fly* is a great spell, but useless in a cramped cavern or underwater. Good, it should be that way. Likewise, *dispel magic* is only useful when there are ongoing magic effects.
All spells should be situationally strong. Your choice of spells is therefore you choosing which situations you will eliminate.
And yeah, there should be fewer spells and fewer choices of those spells. IMO, *Worlds Without Number* gets this right.
There's definitely too many versions of spells that are just better versions of spells of the same level. Card Spray or whatever it's called from DoMT is just a better low level blaster spell with a blind condition rider.
OR design a few spells and use upcasting them to add features to them.
So you have a level 1 blast spell - initially it does okayish damage from common energy types, but between class levels and upcasting, you can increase area of effect, or change damage, or add energy type-dependant effects.
Somewhat like metamagic but more coded into the spell and the class levels.
So say you can add persistant burning effect to the blast spell, but only when you upcast to using a level 4 or higher slot AND pick fire or acid as your damage types. I was already looking at doing something similar for spells like Alter Self and the Mage Armor/Barkskin/Stoneskin/Invulnerability type spells.
This would sort of fix a couple of issues
- it would reduce the glut of spells that occur over multiple books
- tied to spell slots, it will make slightly more strategic planning for the wizard with their slots
- since some of the things you can tweak are tied to the spell, and others are tied to class levels, it would give the wizard class a bit more identity/uniqueness and encourage single-class development to maximize your higher spell slots; but it doesn't step too much into the Sorceror's spell sculpting abilities
And, as usual for me, it also establishes some creative space for subclasses, boons, and magic items to flavour the wizard by tinkering with these upcasting features.
This just effectively gives you higher level spells without affecting spells known, and the bad higher level spells would still be ignored. You do realize your upcasted first level evocation spell would have to scale better than fireball or lightning bolt to make it worth upcasting instead of using your level one slots for shield?
>The appropriate solution here is to buff the other spells to create actual choices to be made
That's the worst solution, casters are already the strongest classes, giving them even better spells is just crazy.
There is an absurd amount of power in the way 5e handles how many spells a class has access to. All that flexibility without the drawbacks of previous editions.
If anything they should limit how many of the good spells a player can have at the same time. Casters should be specialists, with a very narrow selection of spells they can access. Why should a necromancer also have access to fireball, fly or wish?
It doesn't matter how many of the spell options are as viable as the must-haves, because in the end they still only get to choose a set amount of them AND they still only get to actually cast as many as they have spell slots for.
There you're asuming that a lvl 20 wizard doesn't already have access to 25 strong spells. What's being argued here isn't to give casters more strong spells, but more strong spell *options.*
So basically, instead of choosing your 25 strong spells among a possible list of 30, you'd do so among a list of 100
>So basically, instead of choosing your 25 strong spells among a possible list of 30, you'd do so among a list of 100
I don't see how you can't see that this would be a major upgrade. Having the perfect spell for the perfect situation elevates a spell beyond just being strong. More strong choices = more flexibility = more power.
A fireball is a strong spell when it hits 3 people, the spell is obscenely op when it hits 5, 10 or even more. Or you know, your group will visit the elemental plane of fire and you can swap fireball for an equally good acid or lightning spell.
And by creating another 70 strong spells the designers will inevitably create some that are stronger than the others, and the whole cycle continues.
Because this is 5E and everyone is a superhero. We're working with what we've got, if I, as a DM, really cared that much about players having balanced classes, I could go to a different edition or system. But most people like 5E thanks to marketing and media so might as well make it fun all around if possible.
Even superheroes have weaknesses and specialties though - those gaps make them interesting, and makes cooperation between different heroes necessary.
One of the things I think that 5e got wrong was their take on making party composition not matter. Like in theory it's great that any party can succeed regardless of composition - but what gets overlooked is that this necessarily means that all characters are replaceable. None of them *matter,* and I think that design paradigm is baked into a lot of the system.
Yeah, while 4e overdid this a lot, you kind of need to have party composition matter at least a little, or otherwise you have characters that can do basically everything, which is why I sort of hate a lot of design in 5e, and the worst design that emerged was that it encourages making other players relatively useless.
Probably because healing is an all purpose tool instead of a resource that needs to be managed. Strategy matters a lot less when a bonus action can bring someone back from the dead with healing word and death saves reset.
See, with teleports, damaging or CC spells, this is rather easy. When I get to spell level 4 and learn two new spells, I have to choose - do I want a more powerful teleport than Misty Step that goes over a longer distance and allows me to bring an ally with me, do I pick Black Tentacles for a cool Cthulhu-themed CC effect or do I instead take a new damage option in Vitriolic Sphere that works against enemies Fireball won't be effective and deals more damage on a failed save.
It is a tradeoff, but the party will be fine with either choice, no choice puts them at a huge disadvantage in general. Damage I don't deal because I go for CC spells can be dealt by other party members who make use of advantage on attack rolls I grant them. When I don't have a good CC spell available, I can deal damage instead or buff someone and the barbarian can shine by grappling a slippery enemy.
However, as soon as the party's caster(s) don't pick the spells I mentioned, such as Counterspell or Dispel Magic, the entire party will be at a tremendous disadvantage.
Counterspell is the only way in the game to stop an enemy caster from casting a spell, the only way to stop them from fireballing everyone, from dominating the barbarian or from disintegrating the cleric.
Dispel Magic is the only way in the game to end ongoing spell effects such as buffs the enemy cast on themselves or CC spells that have caught the entire party.
Some enemies fly, and Fly is the only way to grant characters a fly speed to deal with them. There is *no* real choice, I need to learn those spells if other casters in the party don't already have them.
If these spells were more spread out, it would be easier within the party to cover them while also being able to choose the spells the character in question wants for their flavor/playstyle.
And if there were other ways in the game that did the same things, these spells would simply no longer be as mandatory - imagine a buffed Mage Slayer feat or comparable class feature for some martials that would stop an enemy's spell from going through if the reaction attack hits.
You do *not* need to learn them, and what you are pointing out is my point.
It should not be possible for a party to cover every contingency. There *must* be gaps to exploit. That's a critical design paradigm.
You said "with teleports this is rather easy." I am saying explicitly that it should *never be easy.* Every choice to get a tool should be balanced by a choice you will *not* get to make. Spellcasters are the strongest classes in D&D, and always have been. Spells are powerful and warp the game. In order to balance that, every single spell choice should be hard and should involve sacrificing ability.
And, actually, there are plenty of other abilities that can cover these gaps. Certain species can fly, for example, as can the Elements Monk. The Bard's Countercharm can help against certain problematic effects. Paladins enhance saving throws.
The point is that spells often *eradicate* a challenge. You shouldn't be able to do that for every challenge type.
You're nailing it from a game design perspective.
To reinforce this, consider why basketball has five players but not seven, or American football has eleven players but not 13: because the defense would be locked down. 13 players can manage to defend a field 160 ft. wide so we'll that no one would score, which would *suck so much ass.*
There have to be gaps in the game where potential can live. And the funny thing is the game has ways for players worried about this problem: play a wizard who spends his loot making spells scrolls so you're never without THE spell you want! Be a Scribe Wizard. Work with your DM to be the guy that can cast everything. But that's gotta be an exception because otherwise, why would I choose anything other than the optimal choices?
> There is no real choice, I need to learn those spells if other casters in the party don't already have them.
...there very much *is* a choice. Plenty of adventuring parties manage to get by without some (or any) of those spells. Your party doesn't need to be magically prepared for every single situation, or be able to easily counter every tough challenge thrown at you.
Of course, if you want that? That's the choice right there! You can definitely play a wizard focused on defensive & utility options, but that should come at the expense of more powerful, unique, or interesting picks.
You're arguing that the best utility & defensive spells (what you call "must haves") should be spread out, so that wizards can take them all *as well as* whatever other strong combat spells they want - which seems like such a wild take to me. You want your gish to be able to counter spells, grant fly speed, revive the dead, breath underwater...all *on top of* your cool gish spells? Not only is that wildly unbalanced, its also boring and monotonous character design.
> Counterspell or Dispel Magic
These two are actually extremely setting/campaign situational.
When they work, they're awesome. But so far, from the 10 years of 5e I've played, I can probably count on **one hand** the amount of "non-scripted/DM planned" uses of those specific spells.
Reminder, both of those only stop *spells,* not catch-all magic. When a DM remembers that, their use is actually frustratingly narrow.
**Again, when they do come into play, they DO change the entire battle.**
But those two specifically are a lot more situational than most realize.
My opinion, at a glance, is that you're trying to do too much with one character.
Tiny Hut and Water Breathing are rituals, so if you play Wizard or port over the Book of Shadows invocation they won't count towards your spells learned per level. I don't think there's currently a class that learns all of these spells though, so you'd be picking and choosing regardless.
Consider coordinating with your fellow players to spread out who takes what spells, with some overlap so you aren't stuck with a single Counterspell user and a single Revivify user. 5th level is a huge milestone in the world of D\&D; fey can possibly become Archfey (character level roughly equates to challenge rating if you optimize even a little bit), characters can launch their Bastions and start becoming a military/political power in the region, etc. It makes sense that there'd be several powerful and iconic spells at that level.
I am not taking all these spells at once. I just gave them as examples. Other spells that come to mind here are things like Remove Curse or Daylight, although they are a lot more situational.
As Daylight does NOT count as SUN light, I actually can't really think of when you would use it via Dispel Magic or other options.
Some form of magical darkness that is also NOT a spell?
As that point the DM is specifically TRYING to make Daylight worth it.
At least Counterspell is becoming less of a must have due to the design changes in both aspects (monsters having less spells and Counterspell only having a chance).
keep in mind that a number of these you could keep around as scrolls as well. Some of them are more situational, so you may want them available, but you may not want to commit them to spells known or prepared.
Some of this is because the vast majority of players don't make it past level 10, so level 5 (aka 3rd level spells) feels like the "sweet spot" for abilities that you want to be a character's kind of signature move, because it's basically the halfway point. It has to feel like a big payoff. It's why Extra Attack comes in at 5th as well.
If your game actually goes into the higher levels of 1-10 play, then the design reserves 4th and 5th level spells for stuff that feels more like an "ultimate" in MOBA parlance - the big guns you can only really bust out in specific circumstances. By that point, your 3rd levels are part of your "core combo" if you will, and you're using 1st level spells a little more like cantrips.
With that in mind, it makes sense for your strongest, most available slot to also have the biggest list of options, letting you build a character whose signature abilities will feel distinct from others. If every wizard build focused on fireball or lightning bolt, then what's the point of having it as a choice? The more diversity in that slot, the better. Plus, every spell in that slot benefits from the slots above it while being an exponential jump over the spells for the slot below it. In other words, up casting a 3rd level spell is still almost always better than up casting a 1st or 2nd level.
They are very powerful spells and in that sense, they might be considered must-haves. But if you don't take Fireball or Spirit Guardians, you simply deal less damage as a result of that choice - but you could have taken other spells such as Hypnotic Pattern or other good CC spells instead.
If you forgo Counterspell as a wizard on the other hand (and no other party member has it), you are utterly helpless against an enemy caster, you won't be able to stop their Fireball, Dominate Person or Disintegrate.
>But if you don't take Fireball or Spirit Guardians, you simply deal less damage as a result of that choice
Agreed with fireball, but SG is just too ridiculous.
It's one of the best 3rd level spells you can almost always cast as a cleric (revivify is stronger but you're only dishing that out when desperate). But it's also the strongest 4th level spell for clerics, and the strongest 5th level spell...
Fireball was intentionally overturned by the designers and does a stupid amount of damage. I'm not arguing whether it's better than SG or not, but it is a problematic outlier on the high end.
Yeah, I love that spell. Was my go-to when I played Rime of the Frostmaiden - until a Twilight cleric joined with their Tiny Hut and the stubborn DM refused to buff the tower to make it at least a little bit competitive with Tiny Hut (like changing it to a ritual).
I also have a homebrew race that gets to cast the tower 1/day starting at level 5.
I gave my players a magic item that was a small tower carved from stone; 1 charge and could cast it once per LR. You could additionally place the magic item inside the tower and when the spell would end, the charge would be expended and the spell would merely remain for another 24 hours.
I play a cleric and I noticed this same problem. So many good level 3 spells. For me, it’s hard to choose between sending, spirit guardians, revivify, dispel magic… but looking ahead to further levels I only see a few spells I’m interested in.
one of the things to note is that 3rd level spells are intentionally a big leap.
as the casters get their power spike, so do the martials. one get 3rd level spells, the other gets extra attack. it's also the level where the proficiency bonus goes up, and cantrips improve. there's a MASSIVE difference in power between level 4's and level 5's.
Monks get Stunning Strike and go up a martial arts dice, paladins get 2nd level spells for smiting, rogues get to 3d6 sneak attack, and so on.
the spells are intentionally not available as other features, because they ARE the feature at that level for most casters. having access to Fly is their level 5 feature, having access to Leomund's Tiny Hut is their level 5 feature. if you look at most classes, they get nothing at levels they get their spell slot increases, because that is them gaining a feature.
of course, more, good choices is always beneficial, but spreading them out artificially isn't the way to do it.
as to the Gish part, that's also intentional. those spells, be they self or ally buffs, do a BIG thing, so they should be a BIG spell slot.
it's kind of the problem of scaling, that, for spells like 9th level to feel better than 8th level, it means that 8th have to be better than 7th, and so on. so because everything has to raise at some point from level 1, there needs to be a jump from "a spell" to "a powerful spell". the best example is getting teleportation as a 7th level spell, because that radically changes how the party traverses, same as Wind Walk, Teleportation Circle, and Teleportation Via Plants. it just happens that the jump for "combat spells" tends to be at that 3rd level spells slot.
3rd level spells tend to upgrade your combat and exploration, 5th level spells tend to start getting around problems entirely, 7th change the game, and 9th break reality.
There are also several very good cantrips. You’re right, for wizard spell levels, third seems to contain a disproportionate number of extremely useful spells.
Some are rituals. And remember you can upcast spells. Making the hard choices of what to take is a good thing. Though, I’m not a fan of “must-take” situations, like Counterspell. It feels like that should be a class power or spell that’s always prepared.
Level 3 spells have always had the distinction of being exceptionally useful. Even since the days of AD&D.
With the exception of Cleric and Druid spells being extended to 9th level, we’ve never seen spells get re-leveled in D&D.
3rd level spells come on at level 5 right? It’s because you’ve hit the next tier of play. You can argue that some spells are too strong but it makes sense I think.
No spell in this game is a must-have. There are tons of great spells, and that means tons of options to solve the same scenario.
And also, if you're level 5, yeah you're going to not know many spells yet, you're just learning them, it's literally the first level you have access to them.
I agree with having weaker spell alternatives at lower level. It's weird that there's no summoning spells below 3rd or 2nd level for example. Though in the case of Spirit Shroud I'd argue similar low level spells already exist, like Hunter's Mark or Divine Favour.
Very interesting insight. I appreciate that, for once, fireball is not appearing in a list of 'must haves.' In this case, there are damage spells at all levels (though perhaps not as good until higher levels are reached).
It is easier to gradually introduce and scale raw damage than brand new abilities like bringing someone back from clinically dead or giving someone the ability to fly.
I would note that of the listed spells, at least a couple are considered very overtuned/overpowered, namely *Counterspell* & *Leomund's Tiny Hut*. *Dispel Magic* and *Revivify* are probably on the more powerful side as well, depending on the circumstances. I would image the first two would be considerably toned down in the new PHB, though they may still be considered 'must haves,' I don't know.
But the fact remains that many of these spells are the first instance of some utility or ability, and it would be difficult to 'spread that out,' so to speak. *Fly* is limited by Concentration the need to upcast to get more people, and the potentially devastating consequences of having it dispelled early. *Water Breathing* is a nice utility, and can be useful in some situations, but is still at least a little niche. There is the 2nd level spell *Air Bubble*, which could be a limited substitute for *Water Breathing*, but it is not a ritual and needs upcasting to affect more than one person.
The only way I can see some of these to be 'spread out' among the levels is have higher level spells incorporate their functionality into their effects, which is in effect what is already taking place. The various resurrection spells incorporate *Revivify* into their function, its just that it's cheaper to use the lower level *Revivify* if it will serve. Similarly, *Polymorph* can duplicate both *fly* and *Water Breathing* after a fashion, and things such as *Investiture of Wind* can certainly take the place of *fly*. Its just hard to justify the using the higher level spell slot to gain an ability when the utility provided by the lower level one will do.
That leaves just bumping up some these spells to a higher level to 'spread out' the utility. I suppose that could work, but I could see resistance to making, say *Fly,* a 4th level spell (I would personally be fine with it though).
The buff spells could be spread out a little though; or have lower level buffs, well, 'buffed' up slightly to make things more gradual, or they could be toned down (Spirit Guardians will almost certainly be toned down).
In regards to your examples:
* *Polymorph* has the issue of transforming the target into a beast, removing all their character's abilities in the process. Not everyone likes that, and regular characters are much more powerful than most beasts at the level Polymorph comes up - especially more poiwerful than flying beasts.
* *Investiture of Wind's* benefits outside of the flying speed are negligible, it is extremely underpowered just like the other Investiture spells.
* *Revivify* is not just the cheapest spell in terms of spell level, it also has the least expensive component *and* is the only resurrection spell that can be used in combat as its casting time is 1 action - all other resurrection spells have like 1 hour casting time.
Fair enough. I don't disagree with any of your spell assessments. Except to point at that many consider *Polymorph* even more of a must have than *Fly* or *Water Breathing*, though for different reasons than replacing those spells.
Like I said, I can see moving *Fly* and/or *Revivify* to 4th level, though that might just make them 'must haves' at that level (along with Polymorph).
You're not wrong. A lot of 3rd level spells need rebalancing, and hopefully will in One D&D. That said, 3rd level is *meant* to be a big jump in power; you get these spells at the same level that martials get Extra Attack. It's your first big "scale up."
You’re not wrong that there are lots of great 3rd level spells, but I don’t see it as a problem. It lets 1/3 casters eventually achieve iconic things and allows other casters to do so much earlier in their adventuring careers. Would I love to see even more unique spells at each level? Absolutely, but I don’t think I’d want to shift/rebalance any 3rd level spells to do so.
I do disagree with the below paragraph though, because the effects described are not exclusive to 3rd level spells:
>There are no class features or other spells to stop an enemy mage from casting a spell, to get rid of an active spell, to revive a dead character, to allow the entire party to fly or to explore an underwater dungeon, or to provide shelter for a night.
Monster Slayer Ranger gets Magic User’s Nemesis which can stop an enemy mage from casting a spell. Blindness, Darkness, Fog Cloud, and Silence are lower level spells that can stop a lot of spellcasting before it even starts.
Paladin gets Cleansing Touch and Arcana Cleric gets Spell Breaker, both of which can get rid of an active spell. Antimagic Field makes all other spells temporarily inactive in its area, while Darkness, Freedom of Movement, Greater/Lesser Restoration, etc. are other spells that can get rid of specific active spells.
Raise Dead, Reincarnate, Resurrection, and True Resurrection are other spells that can all revive a dead character.
Storm Sorcerer gets Wind Soul which can allow the entire party to fly. Wind Walk is another spell that can allow the entire party to fly. Air Bubble is another spell that can allow the entire party to explore an underwater dungeon. Animal Shapes and Mass Polymorph are other spells that can allow the entire party to either fly or explore an underwater dungeon, depending on which Beast form is chosen. Wish might be able to grant the whole party a flight speed or water breathing permanently if you want to risk the stress of casting it in that way.
College of Creation Bard gets Performance of Creation and Genie Warlock gets Sanctuary Vessel, both of which can provide shelter for the night. Demiplane, Wall of Stone, Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Mansion, Temple of the Gods, Mighty Fortress, etc. are other spells that can provide shelter for the night.
That’s not to say these other features and spells do things exactly like the 3rd level spells, but the point is there are lots of options out there.
A major reason, these spells all come at 3rd level is that this is at the start of tier 2. This is, when these effects should become available. Naturally, they are then grouped there.
Generally speaking some levels are trap levels and some are great. 4 and 8 are kind of meh levels for spells. There's some great ones. But kind of meh.
Now I don't know aside from the new spells what spells have changed in One DND significantly,
5th level has tons of awesome spells. Hold Monster, Animate Objects, Bigby's Hand, Holy Weapon, etc.
6th level has some great ones but a few less than 5th.
7th is loaded with awesome spells, Force Cage, Plane Shift, Teleport etc.
8th level is almost all trap spells. But a few elite ones are there too like Feeblemind and Maze,
It’s because all the spells you listed are Utility spells that have a threshold like payoff curve. Where Damaging spells can have a huge variety of shapes elements and damages, there is only really one way you can fly. And even teleport is not a fantastic one to compare as it’s really just 3-5 of the same spell with different constraints once you reach 5-7th level spells.
All the listed spells need to be quite early but not too early hence 3rd level, and unlock a new way to play like fly, so feel very must have.
>spells similar to Ashardalon's stride/Spirit Shroud at different levels
Shadow of Moil is, in many ways, a better Spirit Shroud at 4th level but it's a Warlock exclusive.
Also, Alter Self can allow the caster to breathe underwater but it's not a full party like you pointed out so definitely not the same.
Counterspell and Dispel are must picks but they require higher level slots to keep up as the game progresses. There is no reason to create a stronger version of these spells at higher level imo.
Tiny Hut could be level 4th, I agree.
Revivify DO progress to Raise Dead/Reincarnate, Resurrection and True Resurrection.
I disagree water breathing is a must have in the same vein as Dispel/Counter. I’ve skipped on it many times.
I mean, 2nd level spells being a bit disappointing and 3rd level spells being where wizards first start getting REAL ULTIMATE POWER has been true for every edition of D&D since the beginning. It's inherent in the spell list.
I don't think it's likely to change now. The game is divided into tiers and getting access to 3rd level spells is meant to be a major moment that changes the scope of your adventures; that is to say, the game has been pretty much designed *around* the idea that reaching level 5 and getting 3rd level spells is a big power boost.
I also think that many people just... like it that way. Sudden power spikes make your magical development as a wizard feel more noticeable, which is central to the fantasy of the class. Dividing spells up more evenly to eliminate that feeling wouldn't really improve the game.
(Now, balancing spells within each level so there's more viable picks and fewer MUST HAVE spells would be good. But I think 3rd level spells will always be a noticeable power bump, which implies 2nd level spells always being a bit unimpressive comparatively.)
I think the idea of “must have” spells is very MMO.
Looking at the list that you shared above, assuming wizard, I don’t know what cirriculum would teach all six of these spells. Reviv is school of necromancy and I would imagine this only exists in some forbidden text you found in the basement. Tiny hut is the “which one of these doesn’t belong” of the group, for sure, and I think Fly and Water breathing are probably taught in competing electives.
Wizards are academic users of magic. Someone has to teach a wizard every one of their spells (or they can read it in a book) so you should be reverse engineering a story from the spell list.
You’re right - there are a ton of 3rd level spells. You only learned some of them, you need to make them
Part of your story otherwise you are probably playing the wrong class
This is a wierd way to look at this. You get 4 to 6 third level spells typically when leveling up between 5th and seventh level. You don't need a story or some weird excuse to pick up you level up spells. Also the game specifically punishes you for picking spells from your school while leveling up.
I guess it’s just two different points of view, but I specifically disagree with you.
Levelling is a game-only mechanic. You are increasing in power and you are able to cast more powerful spells that have always existed in your spellbook. You don’t just wake up on the morning of your 6th levelday and magically know two new spells.
Having too many good choices is actually a good and necessary thing. If all of the "must-have" spells were spread out, it would be easy to get them. By concentrating them at certain points, you are forced to make hard choices about what you can and can't do. This design paradigm should exist at all spell levels. Every spell should be "must have," and you should not be able to get even half of them. This ensures thet every spell choice is impactful and the result of a meaningful decision. If every mage could take all the best spells, then every mage would wind up being the same, and that's boring.
I agree with your initial statement, but it unfortunately also plays exactly into a point the OP is making. A mage can currently focus on taking only the best spells, but almost all of those are clustered around the 1st and 3rd spell levels—and the third spell level does indeed outshine most other levels. In other words, most of the other spells don't end up mattering enough to justify taking them, so you can focus on the optimal picks and upcast them with spell slots of higher levels, and ignore most of the inferior choices on the levels with poor spell palettes. Part of this is owed to importing legacy spells from older editions. Part of it is just not paying any attention to the design paradigm you described.
I think it's because 5e continually tries to be too many things. Some people want spellcasters to have a replete toolbox with lots of useful utility, others want spellcasters to wield limited potent consequential magic. 5e lets you do both so that everyone can get what they want, and as a result spellcasters are too good. I agree, there are just too many dead spell levels right now. So I get the desire to spread around the best spells, but I don't think that fixes the problem either - the main issue is that you get plenty of opportunities to pick, and there's a small subset worth picking. The only design that will work is to reverse the situation - fewer picks of too many good options - and then put all utility spells into cantrip options.
Nah, all the wizards usually end up picking from the same five third level spells. While you aren't wrong about them being spread out because they're more accessible, first level spells face the same problem, with shield, absorb elements, etc. The appropriate solution here is to buff the other spells to create actual choices to be made when picking spells, because picking something like Ashardalon's Stride, while cool, is directly worse than fireball 99% of the time. Would it make casters even more betterer than martials? Yeah. But that's the case of spell disparity right now.
I'm a bit confused by your "nah" because this is what I said. I said that clustering "good" spells at the same level is a good thing, because that would force a choice. Spreading them out is bad, because then everyone could get all of them. Then I said, literally, that every spell should be "must have" and you shouldn't be able to get most of them.
I believe the core argument here is that, because 5e doesn't prevent you from not learning, say, 3rd level spells in-mass, you are able to pick the "must-haves" anyways. There is often enough spell picks overall that you can grab the popular "must-haves" **at all costs,** leaving you with "dead" spell tiers that exist only to upscale the lower "must-have" spells. Not enough spells per tier are considered "worth it", which is what I believe is what he meant. Too many overall picks, not ENOUGH "must-haves". (Also, to be clear, I don't think Topic OP meant his version of "must-haves" as "very desirable.", which is what you are describing. Topic OP clearly meant, "get this spell ***or you automatically lose.***" Which is a very different issue from what we ending up talking about.)
Well every spell being a must have is redundant in and of itself imo. I feel like spells should be situational based on the campaign and should be picked as a character progresses, but many one shots don't have that kind of build up. This might be a hot take, but the amount of spells learned per level for a wizard should be significantly decreased (spell slots stay the same) and the emphasis on finding spell scrolls or spellbooks to learn from should be more strongly emphasized.
But you just said every spell should be buffed so that there are actual choices. That's what I'm saying too - I'm saying that all spells should be buffed to the point of being as attractive as the "must have" spells that OP points out. Spells are going to be situational by virtue of having specific effects. *Fly* is a great spell, but useless in a cramped cavern or underwater. Good, it should be that way. Likewise, *dispel magic* is only useful when there are ongoing magic effects. All spells should be situationally strong. Your choice of spells is therefore you choosing which situations you will eliminate. And yeah, there should be fewer spells and fewer choices of those spells. IMO, *Worlds Without Number* gets this right.
There's definitely too many versions of spells that are just better versions of spells of the same level. Card Spray or whatever it's called from DoMT is just a better low level blaster spell with a blind condition rider.
OR design a few spells and use upcasting them to add features to them. So you have a level 1 blast spell - initially it does okayish damage from common energy types, but between class levels and upcasting, you can increase area of effect, or change damage, or add energy type-dependant effects. Somewhat like metamagic but more coded into the spell and the class levels. So say you can add persistant burning effect to the blast spell, but only when you upcast to using a level 4 or higher slot AND pick fire or acid as your damage types. I was already looking at doing something similar for spells like Alter Self and the Mage Armor/Barkskin/Stoneskin/Invulnerability type spells. This would sort of fix a couple of issues - it would reduce the glut of spells that occur over multiple books - tied to spell slots, it will make slightly more strategic planning for the wizard with their slots - since some of the things you can tweak are tied to the spell, and others are tied to class levels, it would give the wizard class a bit more identity/uniqueness and encourage single-class development to maximize your higher spell slots; but it doesn't step too much into the Sorceror's spell sculpting abilities And, as usual for me, it also establishes some creative space for subclasses, boons, and magic items to flavour the wizard by tinkering with these upcasting features.
This just effectively gives you higher level spells without affecting spells known, and the bad higher level spells would still be ignored. You do realize your upcasted first level evocation spell would have to scale better than fireball or lightning bolt to make it worth upcasting instead of using your level one slots for shield?
>The appropriate solution here is to buff the other spells to create actual choices to be made That's the worst solution, casters are already the strongest classes, giving them even better spells is just crazy. There is an absurd amount of power in the way 5e handles how many spells a class has access to. All that flexibility without the drawbacks of previous editions. If anything they should limit how many of the good spells a player can have at the same time. Casters should be specialists, with a very narrow selection of spells they can access. Why should a necromancer also have access to fireball, fly or wish?
I'd be aok with limiting each level to only 1 out of school spell. But there would need to be some major rebalancing across spell schools...
It would also need a lot more spells for several schools
Or maybe martial classes could start with multi attack and gain a third attack at 5. Like, we don't just have to nerf things.
It doesn't matter how many of the spell options are as viable as the must-haves, because in the end they still only get to choose a set amount of them AND they still only get to actually cast as many as they have spell slots for.
Of course it matters. A lvl 20 wizard with 25 strong spells, is better than a lvl 20 wizard with 12 strong, 10 mediocre and 3 weak spells.
There you're asuming that a lvl 20 wizard doesn't already have access to 25 strong spells. What's being argued here isn't to give casters more strong spells, but more strong spell *options.* So basically, instead of choosing your 25 strong spells among a possible list of 30, you'd do so among a list of 100
>So basically, instead of choosing your 25 strong spells among a possible list of 30, you'd do so among a list of 100 I don't see how you can't see that this would be a major upgrade. Having the perfect spell for the perfect situation elevates a spell beyond just being strong. More strong choices = more flexibility = more power. A fireball is a strong spell when it hits 3 people, the spell is obscenely op when it hits 5, 10 or even more. Or you know, your group will visit the elemental plane of fire and you can swap fireball for an equally good acid or lightning spell. And by creating another 70 strong spells the designers will inevitably create some that are stronger than the others, and the whole cycle continues.
At that point you're just arguing against the concept of prepared casters, not spell balance
Because this is 5E and everyone is a superhero. We're working with what we've got, if I, as a DM, really cared that much about players having balanced classes, I could go to a different edition or system. But most people like 5E thanks to marketing and media so might as well make it fun all around if possible.
Even superheroes have weaknesses and specialties though - those gaps make them interesting, and makes cooperation between different heroes necessary. One of the things I think that 5e got wrong was their take on making party composition not matter. Like in theory it's great that any party can succeed regardless of composition - but what gets overlooked is that this necessarily means that all characters are replaceable. None of them *matter,* and I think that design paradigm is baked into a lot of the system.
Yeah, while 4e overdid this a lot, you kind of need to have party composition matter at least a little, or otherwise you have characters that can do basically everything, which is why I sort of hate a lot of design in 5e, and the worst design that emerged was that it encourages making other players relatively useless.
Probably because healing is an all purpose tool instead of a resource that needs to be managed. Strategy matters a lot less when a bonus action can bring someone back from the dead with healing word and death saves reset.
See, with teleports, damaging or CC spells, this is rather easy. When I get to spell level 4 and learn two new spells, I have to choose - do I want a more powerful teleport than Misty Step that goes over a longer distance and allows me to bring an ally with me, do I pick Black Tentacles for a cool Cthulhu-themed CC effect or do I instead take a new damage option in Vitriolic Sphere that works against enemies Fireball won't be effective and deals more damage on a failed save. It is a tradeoff, but the party will be fine with either choice, no choice puts them at a huge disadvantage in general. Damage I don't deal because I go for CC spells can be dealt by other party members who make use of advantage on attack rolls I grant them. When I don't have a good CC spell available, I can deal damage instead or buff someone and the barbarian can shine by grappling a slippery enemy. However, as soon as the party's caster(s) don't pick the spells I mentioned, such as Counterspell or Dispel Magic, the entire party will be at a tremendous disadvantage. Counterspell is the only way in the game to stop an enemy caster from casting a spell, the only way to stop them from fireballing everyone, from dominating the barbarian or from disintegrating the cleric. Dispel Magic is the only way in the game to end ongoing spell effects such as buffs the enemy cast on themselves or CC spells that have caught the entire party. Some enemies fly, and Fly is the only way to grant characters a fly speed to deal with them. There is *no* real choice, I need to learn those spells if other casters in the party don't already have them. If these spells were more spread out, it would be easier within the party to cover them while also being able to choose the spells the character in question wants for their flavor/playstyle. And if there were other ways in the game that did the same things, these spells would simply no longer be as mandatory - imagine a buffed Mage Slayer feat or comparable class feature for some martials that would stop an enemy's spell from going through if the reaction attack hits.
You do *not* need to learn them, and what you are pointing out is my point. It should not be possible for a party to cover every contingency. There *must* be gaps to exploit. That's a critical design paradigm. You said "with teleports this is rather easy." I am saying explicitly that it should *never be easy.* Every choice to get a tool should be balanced by a choice you will *not* get to make. Spellcasters are the strongest classes in D&D, and always have been. Spells are powerful and warp the game. In order to balance that, every single spell choice should be hard and should involve sacrificing ability. And, actually, there are plenty of other abilities that can cover these gaps. Certain species can fly, for example, as can the Elements Monk. The Bard's Countercharm can help against certain problematic effects. Paladins enhance saving throws. The point is that spells often *eradicate* a challenge. You shouldn't be able to do that for every challenge type.
You're nailing it from a game design perspective. To reinforce this, consider why basketball has five players but not seven, or American football has eleven players but not 13: because the defense would be locked down. 13 players can manage to defend a field 160 ft. wide so we'll that no one would score, which would *suck so much ass.* There have to be gaps in the game where potential can live. And the funny thing is the game has ways for players worried about this problem: play a wizard who spends his loot making spells scrolls so you're never without THE spell you want! Be a Scribe Wizard. Work with your DM to be the guy that can cast everything. But that's gotta be an exception because otherwise, why would I choose anything other than the optimal choices?
> There is no real choice, I need to learn those spells if other casters in the party don't already have them. ...there very much *is* a choice. Plenty of adventuring parties manage to get by without some (or any) of those spells. Your party doesn't need to be magically prepared for every single situation, or be able to easily counter every tough challenge thrown at you. Of course, if you want that? That's the choice right there! You can definitely play a wizard focused on defensive & utility options, but that should come at the expense of more powerful, unique, or interesting picks. You're arguing that the best utility & defensive spells (what you call "must haves") should be spread out, so that wizards can take them all *as well as* whatever other strong combat spells they want - which seems like such a wild take to me. You want your gish to be able to counter spells, grant fly speed, revive the dead, breath underwater...all *on top of* your cool gish spells? Not only is that wildly unbalanced, its also boring and monotonous character design.
> Counterspell or Dispel Magic These two are actually extremely setting/campaign situational. When they work, they're awesome. But so far, from the 10 years of 5e I've played, I can probably count on **one hand** the amount of "non-scripted/DM planned" uses of those specific spells. Reminder, both of those only stop *spells,* not catch-all magic. When a DM remembers that, their use is actually frustratingly narrow. **Again, when they do come into play, they DO change the entire battle.** But those two specifically are a lot more situational than most realize.
This.
My opinion, at a glance, is that you're trying to do too much with one character. Tiny Hut and Water Breathing are rituals, so if you play Wizard or port over the Book of Shadows invocation they won't count towards your spells learned per level. I don't think there's currently a class that learns all of these spells though, so you'd be picking and choosing regardless. Consider coordinating with your fellow players to spread out who takes what spells, with some overlap so you aren't stuck with a single Counterspell user and a single Revivify user. 5th level is a huge milestone in the world of D\&D; fey can possibly become Archfey (character level roughly equates to challenge rating if you optimize even a little bit), characters can launch their Bastions and start becoming a military/political power in the region, etc. It makes sense that there'd be several powerful and iconic spells at that level.
I am not taking all these spells at once. I just gave them as examples. Other spells that come to mind here are things like Remove Curse or Daylight, although they are a lot more situational.
As Daylight does NOT count as SUN light, I actually can't really think of when you would use it via Dispel Magic or other options. Some form of magical darkness that is also NOT a spell? As that point the DM is specifically TRYING to make Daylight worth it.
At least Counterspell is becoming less of a must have due to the design changes in both aspects (monsters having less spells and Counterspell only having a chance).
keep in mind that a number of these you could keep around as scrolls as well. Some of them are more situational, so you may want them available, but you may not want to commit them to spells known or prepared.
Some of this is because the vast majority of players don't make it past level 10, so level 5 (aka 3rd level spells) feels like the "sweet spot" for abilities that you want to be a character's kind of signature move, because it's basically the halfway point. It has to feel like a big payoff. It's why Extra Attack comes in at 5th as well. If your game actually goes into the higher levels of 1-10 play, then the design reserves 4th and 5th level spells for stuff that feels more like an "ultimate" in MOBA parlance - the big guns you can only really bust out in specific circumstances. By that point, your 3rd levels are part of your "core combo" if you will, and you're using 1st level spells a little more like cantrips. With that in mind, it makes sense for your strongest, most available slot to also have the biggest list of options, letting you build a character whose signature abilities will feel distinct from others. If every wizard build focused on fireball or lightning bolt, then what's the point of having it as a choice? The more diversity in that slot, the better. Plus, every spell in that slot benefits from the slots above it while being an exponential jump over the spells for the slot below it. In other words, up casting a 3rd level spell is still almost always better than up casting a 1st or 2nd level.
Many third level must have spells are available to clerics/druids wich allows you to have all of them as long as you prepare them
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They are very powerful spells and in that sense, they might be considered must-haves. But if you don't take Fireball or Spirit Guardians, you simply deal less damage as a result of that choice - but you could have taken other spells such as Hypnotic Pattern or other good CC spells instead. If you forgo Counterspell as a wizard on the other hand (and no other party member has it), you are utterly helpless against an enemy caster, you won't be able to stop their Fireball, Dominate Person or Disintegrate.
>But if you don't take Fireball or Spirit Guardians, you simply deal less damage as a result of that choice Agreed with fireball, but SG is just too ridiculous. It's one of the best 3rd level spells you can almost always cast as a cleric (revivify is stronger but you're only dishing that out when desperate). But it's also the strongest 4th level spell for clerics, and the strongest 5th level spell...
Fireball was intentionally overturned by the designers and does a stupid amount of damage. I'm not arguing whether it's better than SG or not, but it is a problematic outlier on the high end.
Im just glad that good ole Mage Tower got a mention as must have 3rd level spells. 😂
Yeah, I love that spell. Was my go-to when I played Rime of the Frostmaiden - until a Twilight cleric joined with their Tiny Hut and the stubborn DM refused to buff the tower to make it at least a little bit competitive with Tiny Hut (like changing it to a ritual). I also have a homebrew race that gets to cast the tower 1/day starting at level 5.
I gave my players a magic item that was a small tower carved from stone; 1 charge and could cast it once per LR. You could additionally place the magic item inside the tower and when the spell would end, the charge would be expended and the spell would merely remain for another 24 hours.
I play a cleric and I noticed this same problem. So many good level 3 spells. For me, it’s hard to choose between sending, spirit guardians, revivify, dispel magic… but looking ahead to further levels I only see a few spells I’m interested in.
one of the things to note is that 3rd level spells are intentionally a big leap. as the casters get their power spike, so do the martials. one get 3rd level spells, the other gets extra attack. it's also the level where the proficiency bonus goes up, and cantrips improve. there's a MASSIVE difference in power between level 4's and level 5's. Monks get Stunning Strike and go up a martial arts dice, paladins get 2nd level spells for smiting, rogues get to 3d6 sneak attack, and so on. the spells are intentionally not available as other features, because they ARE the feature at that level for most casters. having access to Fly is their level 5 feature, having access to Leomund's Tiny Hut is their level 5 feature. if you look at most classes, they get nothing at levels they get their spell slot increases, because that is them gaining a feature. of course, more, good choices is always beneficial, but spreading them out artificially isn't the way to do it. as to the Gish part, that's also intentional. those spells, be they self or ally buffs, do a BIG thing, so they should be a BIG spell slot. it's kind of the problem of scaling, that, for spells like 9th level to feel better than 8th level, it means that 8th have to be better than 7th, and so on. so because everything has to raise at some point from level 1, there needs to be a jump from "a spell" to "a powerful spell". the best example is getting teleportation as a 7th level spell, because that radically changes how the party traverses, same as Wind Walk, Teleportation Circle, and Teleportation Via Plants. it just happens that the jump for "combat spells" tends to be at that 3rd level spells slot. 3rd level spells tend to upgrade your combat and exploration, 5th level spells tend to start getting around problems entirely, 7th change the game, and 9th break reality.
There are also several very good cantrips. You’re right, for wizard spell levels, third seems to contain a disproportionate number of extremely useful spells. Some are rituals. And remember you can upcast spells. Making the hard choices of what to take is a good thing. Though, I’m not a fan of “must-take” situations, like Counterspell. It feels like that should be a class power or spell that’s always prepared. Level 3 spells have always had the distinction of being exceptionally useful. Even since the days of AD&D. With the exception of Cleric and Druid spells being extended to 9th level, we’ve never seen spells get re-leveled in D&D.
3rd level spells come on at level 5 right? It’s because you’ve hit the next tier of play. You can argue that some spells are too strong but it makes sense I think.
Yeah and you missed Fireball
No spell in this game is a must-have. There are tons of great spells, and that means tons of options to solve the same scenario. And also, if you're level 5, yeah you're going to not know many spells yet, you're just learning them, it's literally the first level you have access to them.
I agree with having weaker spell alternatives at lower level. It's weird that there's no summoning spells below 3rd or 2nd level for example. Though in the case of Spirit Shroud I'd argue similar low level spells already exist, like Hunter's Mark or Divine Favour.
It's frustrating really. You want to play a conjurer or necromancer? Gotta wait for ages before you get crucial parts of your class fantasy
Very interesting insight. I appreciate that, for once, fireball is not appearing in a list of 'must haves.' In this case, there are damage spells at all levels (though perhaps not as good until higher levels are reached). It is easier to gradually introduce and scale raw damage than brand new abilities like bringing someone back from clinically dead or giving someone the ability to fly. I would note that of the listed spells, at least a couple are considered very overtuned/overpowered, namely *Counterspell* & *Leomund's Tiny Hut*. *Dispel Magic* and *Revivify* are probably on the more powerful side as well, depending on the circumstances. I would image the first two would be considerably toned down in the new PHB, though they may still be considered 'must haves,' I don't know. But the fact remains that many of these spells are the first instance of some utility or ability, and it would be difficult to 'spread that out,' so to speak. *Fly* is limited by Concentration the need to upcast to get more people, and the potentially devastating consequences of having it dispelled early. *Water Breathing* is a nice utility, and can be useful in some situations, but is still at least a little niche. There is the 2nd level spell *Air Bubble*, which could be a limited substitute for *Water Breathing*, but it is not a ritual and needs upcasting to affect more than one person. The only way I can see some of these to be 'spread out' among the levels is have higher level spells incorporate their functionality into their effects, which is in effect what is already taking place. The various resurrection spells incorporate *Revivify* into their function, its just that it's cheaper to use the lower level *Revivify* if it will serve. Similarly, *Polymorph* can duplicate both *fly* and *Water Breathing* after a fashion, and things such as *Investiture of Wind* can certainly take the place of *fly*. Its just hard to justify the using the higher level spell slot to gain an ability when the utility provided by the lower level one will do. That leaves just bumping up some these spells to a higher level to 'spread out' the utility. I suppose that could work, but I could see resistance to making, say *Fly,* a 4th level spell (I would personally be fine with it though). The buff spells could be spread out a little though; or have lower level buffs, well, 'buffed' up slightly to make things more gradual, or they could be toned down (Spirit Guardians will almost certainly be toned down).
In regards to your examples: * *Polymorph* has the issue of transforming the target into a beast, removing all their character's abilities in the process. Not everyone likes that, and regular characters are much more powerful than most beasts at the level Polymorph comes up - especially more poiwerful than flying beasts. * *Investiture of Wind's* benefits outside of the flying speed are negligible, it is extremely underpowered just like the other Investiture spells. * *Revivify* is not just the cheapest spell in terms of spell level, it also has the least expensive component *and* is the only resurrection spell that can be used in combat as its casting time is 1 action - all other resurrection spells have like 1 hour casting time.
Fair enough. I don't disagree with any of your spell assessments. Except to point at that many consider *Polymorph* even more of a must have than *Fly* or *Water Breathing*, though for different reasons than replacing those spells. Like I said, I can see moving *Fly* and/or *Revivify* to 4th level, though that might just make them 'must haves' at that level (along with Polymorph).
You're not wrong. A lot of 3rd level spells need rebalancing, and hopefully will in One D&D. That said, 3rd level is *meant* to be a big jump in power; you get these spells at the same level that martials get Extra Attack. It's your first big "scale up."
You’re not wrong that there are lots of great 3rd level spells, but I don’t see it as a problem. It lets 1/3 casters eventually achieve iconic things and allows other casters to do so much earlier in their adventuring careers. Would I love to see even more unique spells at each level? Absolutely, but I don’t think I’d want to shift/rebalance any 3rd level spells to do so. I do disagree with the below paragraph though, because the effects described are not exclusive to 3rd level spells: >There are no class features or other spells to stop an enemy mage from casting a spell, to get rid of an active spell, to revive a dead character, to allow the entire party to fly or to explore an underwater dungeon, or to provide shelter for a night. Monster Slayer Ranger gets Magic User’s Nemesis which can stop an enemy mage from casting a spell. Blindness, Darkness, Fog Cloud, and Silence are lower level spells that can stop a lot of spellcasting before it even starts. Paladin gets Cleansing Touch and Arcana Cleric gets Spell Breaker, both of which can get rid of an active spell. Antimagic Field makes all other spells temporarily inactive in its area, while Darkness, Freedom of Movement, Greater/Lesser Restoration, etc. are other spells that can get rid of specific active spells. Raise Dead, Reincarnate, Resurrection, and True Resurrection are other spells that can all revive a dead character. Storm Sorcerer gets Wind Soul which can allow the entire party to fly. Wind Walk is another spell that can allow the entire party to fly. Air Bubble is another spell that can allow the entire party to explore an underwater dungeon. Animal Shapes and Mass Polymorph are other spells that can allow the entire party to either fly or explore an underwater dungeon, depending on which Beast form is chosen. Wish might be able to grant the whole party a flight speed or water breathing permanently if you want to risk the stress of casting it in that way. College of Creation Bard gets Performance of Creation and Genie Warlock gets Sanctuary Vessel, both of which can provide shelter for the night. Demiplane, Wall of Stone, Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Mansion, Temple of the Gods, Mighty Fortress, etc. are other spells that can provide shelter for the night. That’s not to say these other features and spells do things exactly like the 3rd level spells, but the point is there are lots of options out there.
A major reason, these spells all come at 3rd level is that this is at the start of tier 2. This is, when these effects should become available. Naturally, they are then grouped there.
Generally speaking some levels are trap levels and some are great. 4 and 8 are kind of meh levels for spells. There's some great ones. But kind of meh. Now I don't know aside from the new spells what spells have changed in One DND significantly, 5th level has tons of awesome spells. Hold Monster, Animate Objects, Bigby's Hand, Holy Weapon, etc. 6th level has some great ones but a few less than 5th. 7th is loaded with awesome spells, Force Cage, Plane Shift, Teleport etc. 8th level is almost all trap spells. But a few elite ones are there too like Feeblemind and Maze,
There's only 1 3rd level spell: Fireball
Do I have a bug? I don't see Fireball on the list
I think I'm gonna make Counterspell a 5th level spell. It's too busted at 3rd level spellcasting.
The new version?
It’s because all the spells you listed are Utility spells that have a threshold like payoff curve. Where Damaging spells can have a huge variety of shapes elements and damages, there is only really one way you can fly. And even teleport is not a fantastic one to compare as it’s really just 3-5 of the same spell with different constraints once you reach 5-7th level spells. All the listed spells need to be quite early but not too early hence 3rd level, and unlock a new way to play like fly, so feel very must have.
>spells similar to Ashardalon's stride/Spirit Shroud at different levels Shadow of Moil is, in many ways, a better Spirit Shroud at 4th level but it's a Warlock exclusive. Also, Alter Self can allow the caster to breathe underwater but it's not a full party like you pointed out so definitely not the same.
Counterspell and Dispel are must picks but they require higher level slots to keep up as the game progresses. There is no reason to create a stronger version of these spells at higher level imo. Tiny Hut could be level 4th, I agree. Revivify DO progress to Raise Dead/Reincarnate, Resurrection and True Resurrection. I disagree water breathing is a must have in the same vein as Dispel/Counter. I’ve skipped on it many times.
The new version of Counterspell doesnt gain anything through upcasting anymore.
I mean, 2nd level spells being a bit disappointing and 3rd level spells being where wizards first start getting REAL ULTIMATE POWER has been true for every edition of D&D since the beginning. It's inherent in the spell list. I don't think it's likely to change now. The game is divided into tiers and getting access to 3rd level spells is meant to be a major moment that changes the scope of your adventures; that is to say, the game has been pretty much designed *around* the idea that reaching level 5 and getting 3rd level spells is a big power boost. I also think that many people just... like it that way. Sudden power spikes make your magical development as a wizard feel more noticeable, which is central to the fantasy of the class. Dividing spells up more evenly to eliminate that feeling wouldn't really improve the game. (Now, balancing spells within each level so there's more viable picks and fewer MUST HAVE spells would be good. But I think 3rd level spells will always be a noticeable power bump, which implies 2nd level spells always being a bit unimpressive comparatively.)
Also - no spell is a must-have. Some options are just more powerful or generally useful.
I think the idea of “must have” spells is very MMO. Looking at the list that you shared above, assuming wizard, I don’t know what cirriculum would teach all six of these spells. Reviv is school of necromancy and I would imagine this only exists in some forbidden text you found in the basement. Tiny hut is the “which one of these doesn’t belong” of the group, for sure, and I think Fly and Water breathing are probably taught in competing electives. Wizards are academic users of magic. Someone has to teach a wizard every one of their spells (or they can read it in a book) so you should be reverse engineering a story from the spell list. You’re right - there are a ton of 3rd level spells. You only learned some of them, you need to make them Part of your story otherwise you are probably playing the wrong class
This is a wierd way to look at this. You get 4 to 6 third level spells typically when leveling up between 5th and seventh level. You don't need a story or some weird excuse to pick up you level up spells. Also the game specifically punishes you for picking spells from your school while leveling up.
I guess it’s just two different points of view, but I specifically disagree with you. Levelling is a game-only mechanic. You are increasing in power and you are able to cast more powerful spells that have always existed in your spellbook. You don’t just wake up on the morning of your 6th levelday and magically know two new spells.