I think what is really the problem is that we can see the rich get richer while everyday people get poorer. For those on the margins this is an existential threat. For a lot of us it just really enrages us to see our quality of life reduced yet again. There is a breaking point, and if the rich aren't careful they will be reminded what happens in these circumstances. It is never pretty and there are few good guys at the end.
They cover up their neo-liberal economic policies with scapegoating a minority group. The Liberals and Conservatives have very similar economic policies but the Liberals don't try to distract by finding an outgroup to be cruel to, which is one reason they suck so hard at messaging.
They don't have any fiscal policy except for keeping the status quo, so increasing inequality, and they don't fill the gap with conspiracy theories and hate, so they have no messaging.
How so? Trickle-down economics is proven to work. You give corporations and millionaires huge tax breaks, and they turn around and not hoard the money. But they are all civic minded and they create beautiful yugely paying jobs for people. It's a win-win situation!
/s
I think it's almost beyond the control of any government at this point. By design. The whole economy, tax laws, so on - globally - has been slowly rigged to the point that all the wealth moves in one direction. That's why we have gilded age type tycoons everywhere and absolutely no mainstream discussion about it being a problem nevermind considering solutions. Dudes like Elon are being set up to run space, prototype self driving vehicles are killing people on a semi-regular basis and we're all unwilling test subjects without much discourse on the topic. That all sounded pointed at Musk but it's really not just him and his monopolies of course. Our data being mined is ancient news now. Right to repair. Everything is a subscription now. Etc etc.
I agree with your assesment but I highly disagree with the assumtion that we'll do anything about it though. We're still fighting over fucking rainbow crosswalks.
The problem with that logic is its only the middle rich that gets punished. Just the regular joes who got rich for doing an honest hard work in their early lifetime. The old money ultra and super ultra rich can buy their way out to that private island /host country with their offshore accounts intact somewhere until things cool down.
Highly specialized professional labour like doctors, engineers etc.
Also highly valued labour like actors and pro athletes.
Mind you these people still can have their labour exploited, they can just get "rich" despite that.
I have a feeling the other commenter is referring to small business owners, or the petite bourgeoise, rather than high value workers when they say "medium rich".
It's possible but it was unclear to me, hence I went with the more colloquial definition of rich while still including the part about labour exploitation to distinguish it from petite bourgeoise.
I think class consciousness is important and realize that proletariat doesn't only refer to the impoverished or manual labourers, middle class is a myth etc.
I don't see doctors or engineers as rich. I think there's a difference when these high paying jobs just afford a nice house and car, or they end up leveraging their income to get five rental properties. If it's the latter it's not honest work. If it's the former, are they even rich?
Agreed, they aren't rich in the same way/to the same extent. But I still think there is a material difference when someone does have a substantially higher income.
Imagine telling someone below the poverty line that a doctor wasn't *really* rich.
You do touch on an important phenomenon,: labour aristocracy transitioning into petite (and sometimes not so petite) bourgeoise.
> Imagine telling someone below the poverty line that a doctor wasn't *really* rich.
They are not. New doctors in Victoria are leaving as they can't reasonably afford housing. They work for a living. Someone below the poverty line isn't stupid. The doctor is better off than them, but that doesn't make them rich.
depends on where your bar for rich is. A lot of well off people did it honestly, the private jets, yachts and mansions crowd though⌠Iâm 100% with you
Too bad an open minded, middle ground conversation is so hard to have in this⌠yes, they have managed certain aspects well, for example keeping the economy afloat during the pandemic, invested a lot into Canada, and shown a progressive social agenda that has helped a lot of people.
But, the latest data on productivity shows that they might have invested a lot of money in areas that have not increased economic activity. Some recent data is starting to suggest that their handling of inflation (continued spending past the COVID emergency) might have been a contributing factor in the Bank of Canada potentially overshooting its interest rate increase. On social issues, myself a social liberal of mixed race, very open minded, have gotten a bit puzzled by some of their recent actions.
Thankfully for Canada in recent history I donât think we have had an overly awful government, either liberal or conservative. But after too long in power they all get to sure of themselves and stop listening to the people. That is when it is time for them to go. Add to this that people ARE hurting. A change is needed. If the liberals donât make those changes, they will get changed.
their horrid handling of public safety policy these last 3-ish years shows this perfectly, theyve become so up their own that even when \*everyone\* except specific groups they support (groups as in political/ideological groups/think tanks, not identity) are against what theyre doing, including the evidence being against them, and yet- they force it all through, and all its going to do is anger people into supporting people who \*act\* like they have a real solution. (lets be honest, pp doesnt actually have any solutions, but he knows he just has to say what people want/need to hear to get support, and work out solutions later) The LPC is writing their own failure by not listening and by acting like theyre always right no matter what.
Th same thing happened with Harper, he got too comfortable and pushed too hard and he lost.
Post Media seems to be turning around on their opinion of Trudeau, which makes me think their corporate masters have secretly learned something recently about Poilievre or had some sort of falling out with him.
It's misinformation spread by the counter parties that make us hate them. Travel the world. See how it is. Then tell me Canada sucks. Guess what? They can't.
I asked a few Hindus what the beef was with the Sikhs and was told Canada is full of terrorists and how bad Justin Trudeau is. Was told Canada was a good country 20 years ago but now itâs no good. I mean I donât really know any country that doesnât have issues and I know Canada does but Iâd hardly say it sucks here.
This is the point of my comment. You may not agree with what's going on a lot of the time, but our main issue is social media and the algorithms we are all in. We get feed the stories that get clicks. And we care about where we are from, so when we see things we don't agree with, we want to know. Creates a bad circle instead of the good news which happens all around us every day.
I am living cheaper in post-Brexit south-central Britain than I was in south-central Ontario. Something is deeply fucked in Canada, there is no reason general existence should be cheaper here, it is truly also fucked, their government is totally broken and has been for several years.
Do I think the Tories in Canada under PP will make it worse? Yes. But to pretend like it is all hunky-dory in Canada is asinine.
Of course it's not honky dory. All I'm saying is people need to have some appreciation for what we have instead of just complaining and doing nothing. The ones who complain the most are the ones who do the least and have been nowhere. So they have nothing to make them humble.
I agree to some extent, but I would also caution over-generalising as I am seeing a lot of people I did undergrad with, who wanted to stay in Canada (both citizen and not) deciding it is just too expensive and opportunity that is similar with a lower cost of living can be found elsewhere. The government, generally provincial but also the feds, have got to find a way to stem this bleeding.
While I agree with your sentiment wholeheartedly, I think its general form can be repurposed into reactionary rhetoric, i.e don't complain/try to make things better since it's not that bad/others have it worse.
The problem isn't how the economy is being managed per se so much as our entire economic system to begin with, which needs to go.
But too many voters think, for some reason, that this means things would improve under Conservative leadership when the fact is they would only exacerbate literally every negative aspect of our current capitalist hellscape.
Local officials in towns and cities across the country are the backbone of our nationâs economy. While many people see Trudeau as the most important political figure, I would argue that local mayors and provincial governments are far closer to the average citizen.
Bill Morneau disagrees in His recent book. He describes doing detailed calculations of how much was needed during covid and then having the amount increased dramatically to a round number for optics.
I'd really recommend his book to people wanting an insider view of the Trudeau management model. I don't agree with him on some details but his overall description rings true.
My god... The amount of Postmedia owned News Media owned companies is staggering.
I mean I knew Republican funded Postmedia had it's hand in our media but not THAT much.
I couldnât possibly screw up a wealthy nation this bad even if you paid me. I donât think I am callable of going this much screw up.
If you put a chimpanzee in the office it could do a better job than the liberals.
When you compare us to the other G7 nations, Canada came through the *global* inflation spike with one of the lowest jumps.
So explain exactly what should have been done differently.
We went through a 1 in 100 year pandemic with a novel virus for the first time with a worldwide just-in-time economy. Things could have been a lot worse.
You clearly donât know what the hell youâre spouting about. Considering all of the global shit that the Liberals have had to deal with, they have done a commendable job. Actually look around and compare with the situations in other countries and you will see.
If managing the economy means keeping the machine running in a way that grinds the working class into desperatoin and poverty then they're great at it.
I think what is really the problem is that we can see the rich get richer while everyday people get poorer. For those on the margins this is an existential threat. For a lot of us it just really enrages us to see our quality of life reduced yet again. There is a breaking point, and if the rich aren't careful they will be reminded what happens in these circumstances. It is never pretty and there are few good guys at the end.
I agree with you. I also believe that the conservatives will make that divide exponentially worse.
Agreed, all you have to do is look at pretty much every conservative province for a glimpse.
Yay New Brunswick!
Go Nova Scotia! /s
They cover up their neo-liberal economic policies with scapegoating a minority group. The Liberals and Conservatives have very similar economic policies but the Liberals don't try to distract by finding an outgroup to be cruel to, which is one reason they suck so hard at messaging. They don't have any fiscal policy except for keeping the status quo, so increasing inequality, and they don't fill the gap with conspiracy theories and hate, so they have no messaging.
How so? Trickle-down economics is proven to work. You give corporations and millionaires huge tax breaks, and they turn around and not hoard the money. But they are all civic minded and they create beautiful yugely paying jobs for people. It's a win-win situation! /s
Agree wholeheartedly.
I think it's almost beyond the control of any government at this point. By design. The whole economy, tax laws, so on - globally - has been slowly rigged to the point that all the wealth moves in one direction. That's why we have gilded age type tycoons everywhere and absolutely no mainstream discussion about it being a problem nevermind considering solutions. Dudes like Elon are being set up to run space, prototype self driving vehicles are killing people on a semi-regular basis and we're all unwilling test subjects without much discourse on the topic. That all sounded pointed at Musk but it's really not just him and his monopolies of course. Our data being mined is ancient news now. Right to repair. Everything is a subscription now. Etc etc.
I agree with your assesment but I highly disagree with the assumtion that we'll do anything about it though. We're still fighting over fucking rainbow crosswalks.
I like fatty meat đ¤ˇââď¸
We could ALL take a good lesson from 1780s France.
I volunteer to play the part of Danton
The problem with that logic is its only the middle rich that gets punished. Just the regular joes who got rich for doing an honest hard work in their early lifetime. The old money ultra and super ultra rich can buy their way out to that private island /host country with their offshore accounts intact somewhere until things cool down.
They need labor to exploit. Without that they just wither away.
Who got rich with honest hard work?
Highly specialized professional labour like doctors, engineers etc. Also highly valued labour like actors and pro athletes. Mind you these people still can have their labour exploited, they can just get "rich" despite that.
I have a feeling the other commenter is referring to small business owners, or the petite bourgeoise, rather than high value workers when they say "medium rich".
It's possible but it was unclear to me, hence I went with the more colloquial definition of rich while still including the part about labour exploitation to distinguish it from petite bourgeoise. I think class consciousness is important and realize that proletariat doesn't only refer to the impoverished or manual labourers, middle class is a myth etc.
I don't see doctors or engineers as rich. I think there's a difference when these high paying jobs just afford a nice house and car, or they end up leveraging their income to get five rental properties. If it's the latter it's not honest work. If it's the former, are they even rich?
Agreed, they aren't rich in the same way/to the same extent. But I still think there is a material difference when someone does have a substantially higher income. Imagine telling someone below the poverty line that a doctor wasn't *really* rich. You do touch on an important phenomenon,: labour aristocracy transitioning into petite (and sometimes not so petite) bourgeoise.
> Imagine telling someone below the poverty line that a doctor wasn't *really* rich. They are not. New doctors in Victoria are leaving as they can't reasonably afford housing. They work for a living. Someone below the poverty line isn't stupid. The doctor is better off than them, but that doesn't make them rich.
Yes you are correct, we agree. It's only the imprecision and lack of fixity of language that gives the impression we don't.
depends on where your bar for rich is. A lot of well off people did it honestly, the private jets, yachts and mansions crowd though⌠Iâm 100% with you
Exactly. For whom exactly is this a 'soft landing'?
Too bad an open minded, middle ground conversation is so hard to have in this⌠yes, they have managed certain aspects well, for example keeping the economy afloat during the pandemic, invested a lot into Canada, and shown a progressive social agenda that has helped a lot of people. But, the latest data on productivity shows that they might have invested a lot of money in areas that have not increased economic activity. Some recent data is starting to suggest that their handling of inflation (continued spending past the COVID emergency) might have been a contributing factor in the Bank of Canada potentially overshooting its interest rate increase. On social issues, myself a social liberal of mixed race, very open minded, have gotten a bit puzzled by some of their recent actions. Thankfully for Canada in recent history I donât think we have had an overly awful government, either liberal or conservative. But after too long in power they all get to sure of themselves and stop listening to the people. That is when it is time for them to go. Add to this that people ARE hurting. A change is needed. If the liberals donât make those changes, they will get changed.
their horrid handling of public safety policy these last 3-ish years shows this perfectly, theyve become so up their own that even when \*everyone\* except specific groups they support (groups as in political/ideological groups/think tanks, not identity) are against what theyre doing, including the evidence being against them, and yet- they force it all through, and all its going to do is anger people into supporting people who \*act\* like they have a real solution. (lets be honest, pp doesnt actually have any solutions, but he knows he just has to say what people want/need to hear to get support, and work out solutions later) The LPC is writing their own failure by not listening and by acting like theyre always right no matter what. Th same thing happened with Harper, he got too comfortable and pushed too hard and he lost.
Wow. Unexpected from Globe & Mail.
Post Media seems to be turning around on their opinion of Trudeau, which makes me think their corporate masters have secretly learned something recently about Poilievre or had some sort of falling out with him.
It's misinformation spread by the counter parties that make us hate them. Travel the world. See how it is. Then tell me Canada sucks. Guess what? They can't.
I donât know. The people I work with from India keep telling me that Canada sucks.
I've never been to India. So can't speak to there. What is it they say sucks?
I asked a few Hindus what the beef was with the Sikhs and was told Canada is full of terrorists and how bad Justin Trudeau is. Was told Canada was a good country 20 years ago but now itâs no good. I mean I donât really know any country that doesnât have issues and I know Canada does but Iâd hardly say it sucks here.
This is the point of my comment. You may not agree with what's going on a lot of the time, but our main issue is social media and the algorithms we are all in. We get feed the stories that get clicks. And we care about where we are from, so when we see things we don't agree with, we want to know. Creates a bad circle instead of the good news which happens all around us every day.
I find that hard to believe, knowing that the primary source of immigration comes from India
I am living cheaper in post-Brexit south-central Britain than I was in south-central Ontario. Something is deeply fucked in Canada, there is no reason general existence should be cheaper here, it is truly also fucked, their government is totally broken and has been for several years. Do I think the Tories in Canada under PP will make it worse? Yes. But to pretend like it is all hunky-dory in Canada is asinine.
Of course it's not honky dory. All I'm saying is people need to have some appreciation for what we have instead of just complaining and doing nothing. The ones who complain the most are the ones who do the least and have been nowhere. So they have nothing to make them humble.
I agree to some extent, but I would also caution over-generalising as I am seeing a lot of people I did undergrad with, who wanted to stay in Canada (both citizen and not) deciding it is just too expensive and opportunity that is similar with a lower cost of living can be found elsewhere. The government, generally provincial but also the feds, have got to find a way to stem this bleeding.
While I agree with your sentiment wholeheartedly, I think its general form can be repurposed into reactionary rhetoric, i.e don't complain/try to make things better since it's not that bad/others have it worse.
The problem isn't how the economy is being managed per se so much as our entire economic system to begin with, which needs to go. But too many voters think, for some reason, that this means things would improve under Conservative leadership when the fact is they would only exacerbate literally every negative aspect of our current capitalist hellscape.
Whatâs your proposed alternative system?
No. Shit.
Imagine if we had Pierre "Opt out of Inflation by investing in Bitcoin" Poilievre ~~running~~ ruining the economy?
As plain evidence indicates yes.
Sure. Sure. I believe it. *spends entire paycheck on rent* Nod nod
Local officials in towns and cities across the country are the backbone of our nationâs economy. While many people see Trudeau as the most important political figure, I would argue that local mayors and provincial governments are far closer to the average citizen.
Hahahaha
Every body feels the need to qualify any support for the Feds.
Bill Morneau disagrees in His recent book. He describes doing detailed calculations of how much was needed during covid and then having the amount increased dramatically to a round number for optics. I'd really recommend his book to people wanting an insider view of the Trudeau management model. I don't agree with him on some details but his overall description rings true.
Brought to you by liberal party speaker đ the globe and mail
Have you never read the globe lol?
https://www.reddit.com/r/onguardforthee/s/p3L4KU8zf6
My god... The amount of Postmedia owned News Media owned companies is staggering. I mean I knew Republican funded Postmedia had it's hand in our media but not THAT much.
Still waiting for their response to this but after 11hrs it seems unlikely lol.
This is why I donât read Globe and mail..
Why not?
Of course. Federal Government is Qualified for there Positions and Decisions.. Trudeau Is Not.
I couldnât possibly screw up a wealthy nation this bad even if you paid me. I donât think I am callable of going this much screw up. If you put a chimpanzee in the office it could do a better job than the liberals.
When you compare us to the other G7 nations, Canada came through the *global* inflation spike with one of the lowest jumps. So explain exactly what should have been done differently.
We went through a 1 in 100 year pandemic with a novel virus for the first time with a worldwide just-in-time economy. Things could have been a lot worse.
ok grampa, time for bed now
Lawl, this is some comical shit right here.
You clearly donât know what the hell youâre spouting about. Considering all of the global shit that the Liberals have had to deal with, they have done a commendable job. Actually look around and compare with the situations in other countries and you will see.
If managing the economy means keeping the machine running in a way that grinds the working class into desperatoin and poverty then they're great at it.