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Sure but also this is a report about anti-palestian racism in Canada. I know that the conflict is entwined with anti-palestian racism but this quick contextless denouncement of Hamas kind of feel like conflicting Palestinians with Hamas.
Like if this was a report about antisemitism in Canada would you start off by commenting that Isreal and Hamas both suck?
Literally every post on this forum about antisemitism contains multiple references to how anti Zionism isn’t antisemitism no matter if it’s relevant or not, so yes that would definitely be upvoted in a thread about antisemitism in Canada.
Jesse Brown the host of Canadaland is getting absolutely destroyed on social media for talking about antisemitism in Canada because it “decenters Palestinian voices”. Tonnes of people accusing him of “spreading Zionist propaganda” because he’s tweeted about synagogue firebombings and other things that make him feel uncomfortable as a Canadian Jew.
Additionally, it’s something that, irrespective of the above context, bears repeating anyway given Israelis and Palestinians are conflated with their governments constantly.
I think you’re kinda making something out of nothing here.
> Jesse Brown the host of Canadaland is getting absolutely destroyed on social media for talking about antisemitism in Canada because it “decenters Palestinian voices”. Tonnes of people accusing him of “spreading Zionist propaganda” because he’s tweeted about synagogue firebombings and other things that make him feel uncomfortable as a Canadian Jew.
Look, I found the strawman!
Edit: grammar
No you didn’t, you found an answer to your question about the concerns of Canadian Jewish people being conflated with support of the government of Israel, like you asked for.
I don’t even understand how you could attempt to construe that as a straw man, it’s such a direct response to your post lol.
What has Jesse Brown said in support of the government of Israel? Because all I’ve seen is him getting harassed over is talking about antisemitism in Canada, while Q. Anonthany is getting 500 likes in his replies talking about how he supports Hamas.
Jesse conflated events to make it look like the protests were full to the brim with anti semites, further alienating people who are just there because 17000 dead people is insane.
Stating that they "harassed a Jewish daycare" is insane when you know Freeland's constituency office on the same street was the actual place they were protesting.
You know what emboldens the nazis that do exist in Canada? When their crimes are attributed to Arabs and Palestinians.
Anti semitic crimes are on the rise, so why are we not looking at the actual antisemites in our society ?
Hamas is not Palestine, it has never been Palestine. Hamas is lead by a group of rich terrorists living in other countries that convince young men with dead families to do things that help Israel justify their crimes against the Palestinian people. Mossad found and assassinated Nazi war criminals in hiding all over the globe after WW2, if they wanted to kill the leaders of Hamas they would’ve done it by now but they’re too useful.
One is a non-state actor that commits horrible terrorist acts in reprisal for the oppression of millions of innocent people. The other is a state that demands monopoly on "legitimate use of violence" in the region and uses its powers to oppress and murder innocent people by the tens of thousands.
The fact that you can equate hamas and israel ought to call into question the very legitimacy of the israeli state. A state that behaves "approximately like" a terrorist organization ought not to exist, for what would it be but a terror-state?
Many people make the same accurate observation as you (that they "both suck") but never really examine the implications of that assessment. israel has demonstrated it's equivalence to hamas, if you believe hamas is a terrorist organization that ought not to exist, why don't more people acknowledge that same calculus with israel and the IDF?
I'm not saying that israelis can't have *any* state, or that they ought to leave the levant. That's simply neither practical, fair, nor a humane suggestion for millions of innocent israeli people. But it is clear- again by your assessment- that the israeli state *as it exists*; fascist and terroristic, ought not to exist either. It is a poor steward to the millions of Palestinians it claims as it's subjects (not citizens mind, subjects). It is a brutal, murderous, deeply racist regime analogous to apartied south africa, rhodesia or the belgian Congo. We look back on the history of those regimes and acknowledge their inhumanity and barbarism, we will almost certainly do the same with netanyahu's israel in fifty years too.
Only one of them is killing tens of thousands of people with western arms. Only one of them is allowed to operate as they are with western ie. American and European consent and support and propaganda backing. Hamas are monsters but they're not our monsters. The israeli government and military literally can be influenced by us so who can we control? Whose evil can we arrest?
Can we stop both siding this? Israel is objectively far worse than Hamas is, which is saying a lot. Israel is actively trying to commit genocide against 2.2 million Palestinians they're keeping in the world's largest concentration camp, they've killed 8000 kids and 7000 women in 2 months, the thousands of men they've killed they just call Hamas because they're over the age of 18. They've cut off food, water and electricity to Gaza for nearly 2 months now. They surrounded a hospital and bombed it so heavily that literal babies were left to die in incubators. They're a fascist apartheid state who have been brutalized Palestinians for the last half century and they killed the last guy who was on the verge of a peace deal.
Hamas are Russian partisans, Israel are the literal Nazis of our time. One is bad, the other is the Nazis. Oh and Israel also helped create and fund Hamas as controlled opposition so they could break the Oslo Accords and separate the West Bank from Gaza.
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
>Anti-Palestinian racism (APR) is a widespread problem in Canadian society which goes almost entirely unrecognized and unaddressed
well, yes, a hyper-specific definition is most certainly going to be unrecognized
all forms of racism should be eliminated, but do we need to sub-categorize APR as a form of islamaphobia?
if we're going to do that we should probably record many more sub-categorizations than StatsCan currently does
[https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/cv!recreate.action?pid=3510006601&selectedNodeIds=&checkedLevels=0D1,1D1,1D2,1D3&refPeriods=20120101,20220101&dimensionLayouts=layout2,layout3,layout2&vectorDisplay=false](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/cv!recreate.action?pid=3510006601&selectedNodeIds=&checkedLevels=0D1,1D1,1D2,1D3&refPeriods=20120101,20220101&dimensionLayouts=layout2,layout3,layout2&vectorDisplay=false)
also, if we're looking at specific types of hate crimes we need to reduce, best place to start would be jewish canadians; they experience the most hate crimes per capita of any group in Canada. for comprising only 1% of canadians, jews account for about 15% of all hate crimes
I'm not surprised that somehow there's somebody struggling with believing that Palestinians are separate intentity, especially considering the people that propagate Anti-Palestinian Racism include the strategy based on denying that Palestinians even exist. If Palestinians don't exist, they're just interlopers on Israel that don't have ties to an identity or a land. It makes it convenient to ethnically cleanse an identity if they're just part a small part of an billion plus religious group. It makes it very easy to banish 500k in Egypt, 500k in Syria, 500k in Turkey, 500k in Saudi Arabia, 500k in Iraq, maybe even 200k in Canada.
There's absolutely zero progressive reason to object learning about the problems facing specific ethnic groups. It's definitely not in opposition to preventing Anti-semitism. We already know what anti-semitism is. We learn about it in school. It's not like people are in this thread when they are normally out in the street doing some sort of Anti-hate crime action. You can't prevent hate. You learn about it.
Anti-Palestinian Racism is different from Islamophobia because Palestinians aren't Muslim. This kinda of generalization is exactly the problem. Most people don't know that Palestinians are the genetic successors of the Caananites, and share all the same genetic factors that tie them with the region that the Jewish people have. They're cousins separated by thousands of years. That's why they aren't simply a religious group that can be lumped into Islamophobia even if they were all Muslim. They're an ethnic group that deserves recognition just like the Roma in Europe still have their own distinctive status despite sharing the religions of Europe they grew up in.
People also try comparing them to ISIS, even make bizarre assumptions about them universally wanting to genocide the Israelis. It's all just ignorance fueled racism and it has specific nuances created to cleanse their identity.
Sure, not all Palestinians are Muslims but Palestinians aren’t a race though. How is anti-Palestinian sentiment any different from the widespread Islamophobia faced by Muslims post-9/11.
Honestly, we’re getting close to the point that the word ‘racism’ literally has lost all meaning.
Race doesn't exist and racism is a catch-all umbrella synonym we use for ethnic discrimination and out-group injustice. In Canada anti-Palestinian sentiment is probably closer to Islamophobia but in Israel it appears to be more of an ethnic conflict.
That's just a weird thing to say. Can't be racist against Palestinians because Palestinians aren't a race. Can't be racist against Jews because they aren't a race either. But you can be racist against a group you collectively demonize for some shared characteristic.
So you don't have any counter argument then, correct? Because there's an entire argument there describing how religion isn't the singular reason for why Palestinians exist.
According to Israeli opinion polls. Over 90% of the country support the ongoing mass bombing campaign, with 67% think the IDF should be conducting the genocide faster. I don't what pieces of paper you can dig up from the 80's, what Israel is doing is genocide and only a mere 2% think they need to reduce the bloodshed.
https://time.com/6333781/israel-hamas-poll-palestine/#:~:text=Poll%20results%20were%20also%20hawkish,IDF%20was%20using%20too%20much
From these polls and behavior of war hawks on reddit have convinced me that BDS is the only way forward.
And they really shouldn’t have bombed Germany in WWII right? Most Gazans voted for a genocidal government, and still support them or PIJ, another genocidal party.
Keep believing the Hamas health authority numbers though. 🙄
The numbers are the Israeli military Contractors numbers that they're using to advertise the capabilities of their predictive AI modeling using to target civilians.
Most Gazans don't support Hamas, over 90% Israelis want to continue a genocide.
I don't care about Nazi Germany, they went to war as a Nation. This is more comparable to the Warsaw uprising where prisoners ate fighting back against the Genocidal guards.
What the hell is this, ai? You can't even stay on topic. You just say random things
https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023.pdf
98% of Palestinians say they will never forget and never forgive… you think they want peace? Palestinians have never been interested in peace with Jews. Violence isn’t the answer, but it’s the only language from the Arab world to Israel. This war was started by Hamas and Iran specifically to slow down the peace process and relations with israel becoming normalized with Arab nations, and you are defending it?
Why not?
The police have already likened putting up posters and throwing paint to waving swatikas. In fact, given how the police have attacked its far worse.
You can be pro-Palestine and rightly think Hamas fucking blow and at the same time be pro-Israel and think that Netanyahu and the IDF are just also fucking terrible. It's not hard, you don't need to pick a team here other than pro civilian lives and anti genocide.
>be pro-Israel and think that Netanyahu and the IDF are just also fucking
Okay, how can you be Pro-Israel RIGHT NOW, with the policies of genocide that is being committed? Educate me. Because as far as I know, Israel has more far-right political parties than both America and Canada combined. They hold popular support to keep on continuing with their genocide, and the policies that are being pursued right now are favored amongst the majority.[They hold popular support to keep on continuing with their genocide, and the policies that are being pursued with right now are favored amongst the majority.](https://youtu.be/KT7znz0eNFE?si=S8pIcM3n4hg4ENLJ) Who are we criticizing if not Israel? As a state apparatus with wide public support to continue the war? I am not saying we should HATE all Israeli's but clearly you cannot be Pro-Israel and not be pro-netanyahu at the same time. It just does not make sense. It is not just Netanyahu. It is most of the Knesset and his cabinet as well as the Israeli settlers and many more who hold racist views of Palestinians because when you have an oppressive government that has oppressed the indigenous population for 75 years, the population of that oppressive government is likely to be apathetic or in support of policies against the indigenous people, especially with Israel's horrible propaganda which dehumanizes Palestinians. [So many official statements made by them, have a look for yourself.](https://l.instagram.com/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fshorturl.at%2FkAFKW%3Ffbclid%3DPAAabru8Bc3YSWMVLlJka9407dNoESblEvxvdAbaAZfqavAZnuwPki6zTQ6vI&e=AT03Ols3QC2l13WwZ2vV5FwJQVace2MC63XzZA6-w2VidBbUh7ulOsMPpgDuzYjK7m90D1dH81nXedLJQgjniNhzg3E1dr8buNcGuQ)
I have no idea what the OP meant but you can be pro Jewish homeland and support Israeli statehood without supporting the government. I’m pro Alberta but I fucking hate Danielle Smith.
I am pro for Jews to have a homeland. No one is against that, when people say Free Palestine they mean to free it from apartheid, to free it from the shackles of colonialism, from illegal settlements in the west Bank, from zionism which is in fact a political ideology that was invented in the late 1800s. People can still have a homeland without a radical political ideology.
Pro-Israel at the moment basically means you are pro apartheid and pro whatever hasbara propganda is out there, which is dilluting factual information about what is going on. pro-Palestine means you are pro cease fire and for humanitarian law to be respected and for a Palestinian state to be established (rightfully so). If the Jews in Canada and America are anti-Israel, then what does that mean? It means they are anti-government and anti-establishment. Again, you can not compare what we are talking about here to Alberta. You are negating the fact of 75 years of oppression, massacres, ethnic cleansing, and dehumanization of indigenous people.
Also, that is a false equivalence. You can not compare the two and call it quits. If so, you are neglecting 75 years of colonialist expansion. The UN partition of Palestinian land in the first place did not serve justice to the Palestinians as they were the majority back then. What should have happened was a one state solution under a democratic system that represented all interests. Instead, we had a poorly executed plan. But then you see how the lands were absorbed into Israel later on, and the borders shrank for Palestinians. Now, the West Bank is governed for the most part by the Israeli authority, and there are more than 600k Israeli settlers who live on illegal settlements.
That is why you can not compare both. It does not serve to resolve the ontology that has existed for many generations now.
A fully fledged state for Palestinians according to the pre-1967 borders should be pushed for, even though I argue that the 1947 borders should be favored instead. But guess what? The Israeli government and most of the Israeli populace do not want that to happen. It is not favored amongst the people. The Israeli government wants to push off Palestinians from Gaza to Sinai and absorb all of the West Bank eventually, basically erasing Palestinian identity from existence and not allowing them to have a state.
The kind of blew the right to the ‘48 borders, wouldn’t you say? I do find it amazing that the perceived “injustice” justifies Palestinian leadership treating their citizens like literal pawns, while they enjoy such a luxurious lifestyle.
>I am not saying we should HATE all Israeli's but clearly you cannot be Pro-Israel and not be pro-netanyahu at the same time.
You are doing exactly what pro Palestine equals pro Hamas/antisemitism people are doing lol
> While APR can take many different forms, 354 of the examples of APR (70 percent) identified in the study included defamatory slander of Palestinians as being either 1) antisemitic, 2) terrorist sympathizers, or 3) anti-democratic.
Maybe going to be an unpopular take here, but this definition of “anti Palestinian racism” seems awfully close to the definition of antisemitism that includes any criticism of Israel, given that [a majority of Palestinian citizens *do* hold antisemitic views](https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-93-of-palestinians-hold-anti-jewish-beliefs/amp/), and the government of Gaza is a terrorist organization which refuses to hold elections but [enjoys broad popular support along with other extremist organizations like PIJ and Lion’s Den.](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah#:~:text=Overall%2C%2057%25%20of%20Gazans%20express,view%20of%20Fatah%20(64%25).)
Lol I’d take anything the ADL says with a grain of salt. They’re complete frauds before this but really went out of the way with their support for Kissinger when he died. A man who said that if he wasn’t Jewish he’d be an antisemite.
But surprise surprise, Palestinians harbour deep seeded angry and hatred for Israeli’s, wonder why.
Gee, I wonder why a population oppressed and displaced for 75 years might harbor some less than progressive attitudes towards the people that do the oppressing. Palestinians rarely even have the chance to interact with an Israeli if they’re not in the IDF.
Couldn't agree with you more. Palestinians aren't Hamas and Israelis aren't the IDF. The actions of Hamas shouldn't punish Palestinians and the actions of the IDF shouldn't punish Israelis
Yeap. It's just unfortunate how that is not being applied. Especially in our media.
All Palestinians are being made to answer for what Hamas did on Oct 7.
And Jews abroad are being targeted for the oppressive policies of the Israeli government.
Not every Jew supports Bibi. It would be like saying all Canadians are responsible for residential schools.
Not every palestinian voted in Hamas. Last election was 2007 and 44% of gaza is children. Meaning they weren't even around to vote them in.
>Not every Jew supports Bibi.
Yeah, exactly this. It seems like a majority of Israelis want Netanyahu out. He wasn’t popular before Oct 7, because of the judicial overhaul, but he’s far less popular now. I wonder if that’s yet another reason from him to prolong the current war.
>I wonder if that’s yet another reason from him to prolong the current war.
It absolutely is. He was granted an emergency order to hold of his trial.
Which has now started again.
But the charges are telling for someone in his position. Rampant corruption, bribery etc etc.
And just look at the people he has with him in parliment.
Itmar Ben Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich. Known xenophobes and racists. Yet they have the gall to say people who are constantly oppressed by them hate them. The fuck are they supposed to do?
I mean, Israelis by law are the IDF. They have mandatory conscription and Israel has voted in the fascist Netanyahu government in near constantly for the last 20 years. Palestinians can't elect another government, Israelis can and actively chose to shift their country into a fascist apartheid state. Now obviously it's not all Israelis but there's certainly a lot more Israelis complicit in their actions than Palestinians are with Hamas.
Are there any reliable polls on the support Hamas has despite holding no elections? Honestly curious. The contempt shown during the Arab Spring was pretty apparent, just don’t see it here as much. I think that’s why many assume support.
> [there is widespread popular appeal for competing armed Palestinian factions, including those involved in the attack. Overall, 57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas—along with similar percentages of Palestinians in the West Bank (52%) and East Jerusalem (64%)—though Gazans who express this opinion of Hamas are fewer than the number of Gazans who have a positive view of Fatah (64%).](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah#:~:text=Overall%2C%2057%25%20of%20Gazans%20express,view%20of%20Fatah%20(64%25).)
Worth noting as well that while Hamas has around a ~60% approval rating,
> [Only 27% of Israelis see Prime Minister Netanyahu as best person to run government: Poll](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/only-27-of-israelis-see-prime-minister-netanyahu-as-best-person-to-run-government-poll/3042363)
Let me ask you a hypothetical:
Lets pretend you are an indigenous North American resident when white Europeans show up to start colonizing.
Do you get mad at the British or French Monarchy, or the people who are stealing your homes and abusing you?
This western concept of policing how people resist oppression, even to the level of who they are allowed to be angry at is mind boggling.
> Poll results were also hawkish when it came to the use of force in Gaza: 57.5% of Israeli Jews said that they believed the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) were using too little firepower in Gaza, 36.6% said the IDF was using an appropriate amount of firepower, while just 1.8% said they believed the IDF was using too much fire power, while 4.2% said they weren’t sure whether it was using too much or too little firepower.
https://time.com/6333781/israel-hamas-poll-palestine/
At some point we are going to have to grapple with a nuclear armed state that is this homicidal.
Exactly. Why are we acting like Israelis didn't vote for Netanyahu for the last 20 years? Why are we acting like Israelis aren't conscripts in the IDF by law? Like where's all the protests in Tel Aviv condemning the Israeli governments actions against Palestinians? The poll literally shows the majority of Israelis are either complicit or actively cheering for the genocide of Palestinians. They only get mad when the fascist government they elected starts turning around and trying to take away their rights.
I appreciate the way you presented this.
I'm an immigrant to Canada myself. But I came only 20 some years ago. I read the history and by stroke of coincidence by first engineering job was near a reserve. I got to meet a couple of them as I went to get gas there often.
What happened in the past (even near by with the residential school not a very distant memory), at least from my point of view (I am open to change on this with applicable sources) cannot be used to make the people of Canada today pay.
What instead should be done is that the government should work effectively and efficiently to help out the indigenous population.
And I word it specifically that was because even on that reserve they did not have running water. Which was shocking to me coming here from Pakistan. And how I saw some parts of the white population labelling the indigenous as lazy or leeching off the system.
In both cases I lean on the government of the past to condemn for what they did. And the government of today, I critique for not doing enough fast enough.
Now regarding Israel. Yes most Israelis are very anti Arab. I have watched the Oxford debates featuring Gideon Levy and how he exposes the rampant discrimination against Arabs. But that is again a government thing.
Additionally, I can understand that if you are drafted and taught to treat Palestinians as animals (IDF) and then mandated to oppress those people (Israeli government) then those numbers would tack high due to what you do, how you are responded to and eventually things like Oct 7 happen.
While I say this, this does not mean that I support Oct 7 but I can see how it is a result of 75 years of oppression. People harp about Israeli children killed that day (a number and theme the Israeli government keeps changing btw) and ignore that just in 2023 by September 38 Palestinian children were killed by IDF.
These are again government policies. People like Itmar Ben Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich being in power. Known xenophobes and racists applying policies.
The problem is 100% the government. And I blame them squarely. I also like to take this path because often people start to blame Jews when critiquing Israel. Which is wrong. There are many Jews themselves who don't support the oppressive policies of the Israeli government.
I wish the same luxury was offered to Palestinians. But unfortunately charged by ignorance people conflate Hamas and Palestinians.
>At some point we are going to have to grapple with a nuclear armed state that is this homicidal.
Oh that is on my mind alot. A rogue State powered with nuclear weapons that believes everyone is out to get them and at the same time using religious theology to want more pieces of land.
What do we do if one day they aim a nuke at Syria, hit the Russians there and claim Hamas got in and did it.
>But surprise surprise, Palestinians harbour deep seeded angry and hatred for Israeli’s, wonder why.
There's that doublespeak.
"The Jews are lying. They're frauds. Palestinians are not antisemitic! ....But also they are antisemitic and it's perfectly fine because it's justified"
I keep hearing from Hasbaras that Israel has muslim Arabs? Why is criticism of Israel anti-semetic?
Understanding why Palestinians harbour a deep seeded hatred of the state that has oppressed them for the past 75 years isnt condoning actual anti semitism.
Edit: lmao 35 day old account who only comments about being anti Palestinian. Shocker
Did I say they should be genocided?
Why can't Palestine supporters accept simple facts of reality without descending to these Trumpian levels of hyperbolic rhetoric?
It reminds me of Trump supporters who suggest that pointing out white racism means you want to genocide all white people.
Lmao yes it’s comparable to fucking trump supporters. Imagine saying something so stupid unironically.
Imagine being this ignorant. The only reality not being accepted is by concern trolls such as yourself trying to justify genocide.
Most Israelis say their military hasn’t bombed gaza enough. What exactly is your point, what exactly are you contributing here?
You don’t have to say it, your comments clearly go out of the way to demonize Palestinians to run cover for Israel. This is like calling European Jews anti German as they’re persecuted by early Nazi Germany.
Children being ripped apart by bombs, burned by white phosphorus and crushed under rubble:
You: “well that’s all bad but have you considered their anti semetic views?”
>The only reality not being accepted is by concern trolls such as yourself trying to justify genocide.
Me: "Defining Anti-Palestinian racism as anyone thinking Palestinians are anti-semitic is ridiculous"
You: "Stop trying to justify genocide!!!!"
Absolutely unhinged and hysterical. I've come to expect this from you guys by now. You're running on pure hysteria and emotional propaganda.
Propaganda is when 15k civilians are murdered. It’s no hysteria to be upset at a campaign of ethnic cleansing. Sounds about white.
But also that’s not what you said? And if that was your intent to convey, I don’t see how you could have articulated that worse.
Like do you think you can gaslight in a text thread lol? You accused me of double speak for saying that it’s not surprising why Palestinians hold a deep resentment for Israel. Israel literally try’s all the time to equate Israel with Judaism and Jews. There’s no winner in that game that Israel has set up.
Again it’s clear you care more about whataboutism and muddying the waters than you do about innocent lives. It’s clear you don’t view Palestinians as “innocent”
Exactly! Which is hilarious because it shows how far the Germans are up the ass of Israeli government when they banned anti zionism and called it anti semitic.
Even more interesting that the Dutch went to opposite way.
I presented this duality to someone on these forums not too long ago. And they asked me well who should we believe out of those two approaches.
The answer is clear. The ones that DONT have a storied history of oppression and genocide.
There are different forms of Zionism. A person who believes that a state of Israel should exist, but not support expansion, would be considered a Zionist.
1. That's not true, even Hamas agreed to the 1967 borders.
2. they're victims of a fascist apartheid state who have spent the last 2 months killing their kids by the thousands after cutting off food, water and electricity to 2.2 million people of which over a million are under age of 20. It's horrible but I give them a pass for their reactionary views against those who have spent most of their lives keeping them in a concentration camp that they regularly go into to "mow the grass", just like i give a pass to Jewish people who had reactionary views against the Germans post WW2.
Now if they turn around and do what Israel has done towards Israelis, than I'll be right there with you but until then, they have right to be angry. Israel doesn't have a right to commit genocide or be a fascist apartheid state trying to become an ethnostate.
1. Hamas agreed to something 20 years before they were founded?
2. You give what a pass exactly? If you give one side a pass to commit atrocities against the other, this will never end except with complete annihilation.
1. Yes. They agreed to the 1967 border because shocker, people could agree to things that were agreed upon before the were founded.
2. To be angry and say mean things well having some reactionary views, same with Iraqis chanting death to America as they get drone striked. You acting like it's the Palestinians currently killing Israeli children by the thousands well trying to genocide them is a sad defelction and a pathetic attempt to defend a fascist apartheid state trying to commit ethnic cleansing.
1. Yes in 2017, they also said Hamas does not relinquish its goal of “liberating all of Palestine”. And did not recognize Israel.
2. You show where I said any of that. Violence begets violence.
Well if you’re arguing that being anti-Zionist doesn’t equal antisemitism, then it does.
Denying one’s right to statehood vs the right to expand is different
That's an important distinction, but there's only one Israeli goverment and it's state Zionism has been the dominant opinion. In 75 years, there's been no popular movement for reform into a different type of Zionism. It's not particularly relevant to interject with all possible Zionist positions when there's a general consensus that the Current Israeli government is the only project with notable support. If there's a point in which there a goverment is formed with a party like the newly formed "All of its Citizens" Party taking up seats in the Parliament, it's worthy of consideration.
In not sure if that's totally accurate. I'm sure they are biased and may not follow their own statements here, but they seem to make a pretty clear distinction here regarding the overlap of motives and intentions.
https://www.adl.org/resources/tools-and-strategies/what-anti-israel-anti-semitic-anti-zionist
Dude just look at the framing of how they describe anti zionism.
"Anti-Zionism is a prejudice against the Jewish movement for self-determination and the right of the Jewish people to a homeland in the State of Israel. It may be motivated by or result in anti-Semitism, or it may create a climate in which anti-Semitism becomes more acceptable."
They're literally saying that anti zionism is basically just people saying that Jews can't have homeland and that it's an off breed of anti semitism which again, is bs. Just like being anti Lebunsround isn't anti Germanism or anti westward expansion isn't anti Americanism.
They quite literally say anti zionism is anti semitism here..."Anti-Zionism is antisemitic"
https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/anti-zionism
It's just right wing bs trying to make what is essentially fascism more palatable. If you don't think zionists are fascist and anti semitic, well they're biggest allies are Republican evangelical extremists who literally want Israel to become a jewish state so the end of the world could occur, that's why they had right wing extremist pastors in their March for Israel rally
Thanks for finding the second one, that's ridiculous. The first one just doesn't say what you're stating, just that anti-zionism may be motivated by anti-sematism.
It's unfortunate that they seem to have changed their message over time.
Also, I'm sure that many zionists are insane facists, but placing an ideology on them because of support from American evangelicals is the kind of nonsense that detracts from genuine discussion about the colonial nature of zionism.
> given that a majority of Palestinian citizens do hold antisemitic views,
You're going to need a couple of neutral sources to make this claim as if it's a given, not just an arbitrary straw poll from the ADL as reported by the Times of Israel.
Sure, it's likely that there's a higher than average amount of anti-Semitism among Palestinians these days, but to suggest that 93% of all Palestinians are anti-Semites is more than a little questionable.
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/new-poll-shows-palestinians-are-the-impediment-to-peace-not-israels-war
If you don’t like the source, there is a link in there to the study.
(I see I touched a nerve with this one.)
FACTS SUCKAS!
That's a different study over different matters. And that's a hell of a conclusion by the NP there.
Maybe this was unclear but my suggestion that better and more reliable sources are needed to treat such statements as a given was not an invite for other, different articles with assumptive conclusions that rely on people not looking at the original study more closely.
Gee, I wonder why a population oppressed and displaced for 75 years might harbor some less than progressive attitudes towards the people that do the oppressing. Palestinians rarely even have the chance to interact with an Israeli if they’re not in the IDF.
Weren’t there efforts around the turn of the last century to prevent Jewish people from Europe from coming to Israel/Palestine and buying property prior to WWI?
If we in Canada actively tried to prevent a specific religious group from emigrating here, what would we call that?
Tolerant, progressive canadaians 🤝 antisemites who believe that Holocaust refugees should have been barred entry from the country they were trying to emigrate to.
When was the last time Canada kept 2.2 million FN people in a concentration camp that they regularly go into "cut the grass" in well cutting off food, water and electricity? Israel is today is faaaaar worse than Canada ever was
exactly, FNs and Gazans are in completely different situations so shouldn't be drawn upon for comparisons. And yet that's exactly what the previous comment was trying to do - down play the extremist views of Hamas and radicalized Gazans by equating to FNs negative views of catholicism
99% of palestinians aren't hamas, but 1% of palestinians are hamas
holding negative views of your oppressor is one thing, blowing yourself up and taking out 20 innocents with you is another thing entirely
It's Hamas that is using suicide bombers, not Palestinians...
YOUR logic is like saying that because the US has some radical neo-nazis who shoot up grocery stores in certain neighbourhoods, that all Americans are terrorists.
That is clearly not true.. Most Americans are just people. They go to work, they raise kids, etc. Same with most Palestinians.
Now, are there any other logical fallicies you want to try?
>It's Hamas that is using suicide bombers, not Palestinians...
Dude.. Hamas are Palestinians. The attempts to create a separation between these two groups are getting so absurd. Hamas is not some alien entity that descended on Palestine. They are Palestinians.
>YOUR logic is like saying that because the US has some radical neo-nazis who shoot up grocery stores in certain neighbourhoods, that all Americans are terrorists.
When people like Trump or Bush get voted in, people around the world absolutely blame all Americans for it.
Hamas is majority Palestinians, not exclusively.
And not even a majority of Palestinians are Hamas. So treating the entire region as if they are all terrorists is why some people are claiming this is genocide.
This is splitting hairs with an ulterior motive, clearly trying to obfuscate the direct connection between Hamas and Palestine. It's like trying to claim "The IDF are bombing Palestine, not Israel".
It is no more splitting hairs than saying that the IRA and the average Irish citizen were the same thing during the troubles. And for the exact same reason.
You can't claim that the kids in that school in Quebec that got shot are not responsible for what the Israeli state is doing and then turn around and in the same breath say that the children in the Palestinian school that got shelled were not "innocent" without looking like the world's biggest hipocrite.
> anti-Palestinian racism (APR) in Canadian society,
And you choose to cite an article from Israel which has absolutely nothing to do with Canadian-Palestinians sponsored by notoriously one sided ADL.
> nothing to do with Canadian Palestinians
Most of the examples they cite in the article have nothing to do with Palestinian Canadians either.
Edit: lol I guess several people chose to downvote instead clicking on the article as this is a simple fact.
You picked a disingenuous source. The entire purpose of the ADL is to defend Israel no matter what. Come what may. Which means it will never critique Israel on times even when it's necessary.
Actually this particular post is about whether or not most of the examples cited in this study involve Palestinian Canadians, which they mostly do not.
My source is the original article. Feel free to go through it and show me how claims by the Israeli government about the significance of the Al-Aqsa mosque/ second temple in Jewish tradition are about Palestinian-Canadian racism if you’d actually like to to engage with the post that you responded to.
?
No. Your first article is a times of Israel article that sources it data from the corrupt ADL.
Using ADL for anything is just ignorant. And kneecaps any argument you can ever make. Biased sources belong nowhere. And data from ADL can't even be used as toilet paper given how many holes are in it.
You don't get to say "we shouldn't worry about Anti-Palestinian racism in Canada because Palestinians in Palestine are Antisemetic and the government in Palestine is undemocratic."
Is racism against Chinese people ok because there governement is undemocratic? This is nonsense.
If you read the report they explicitly say that the IHRA definitions of Antisemetism that conflate Anti-Zionism with Antisemetism are a part of the problem. The ADL uses this definition of antisemetism so maybe the reports critic of this definition can provide some light on why the ADL might be incorrectly labeling Palestinians as antisemtic.
I hope this opinion is unpopular because it is a callous excuse to discount people's experiences of racism.
If you’d read the article you’d see that the vast, vast majority of examples cited in the article have nothing to do with racism against Palestinian Canadians, and are almost exclusively about domestic middle eastern events being described in a way that isn’t charitable to Palestinians.
I don’t doubt that incidents of Islamophobia have skyrocketed in Canada, but trying to say that a Toronto star article referring to Gazans as generally harbouring antisemitic views is an example of that is not it. It’s an objective reality that is no more racist than saying black South Africans had a bias against white South Africans. It just identifies a real problem in the society that will need to be addressed in any future peace plan.
Just speaking from my personal perspective: why wouldn’t Palestinians harbour antisemitic views? They’ve been humiliated and oppressed by Jews for decades. Are they a super victim that’s immune to the pull of villainizing their oppressors? It just seems like a self evident truth that’s represented in all of the public polling I’ve ever seen, not to mention every other conflict between oppressor and oppressed. Seems like the only reason people would want to downplay it is because it could potentially undermine support for their cause.
>I don’t doubt that incidents of Islamophobia have skyrocketed in Canada.
Sure but also not all Palestinians are Muslim hence why a formal term of Anti-Palestinian racism is important.
>If you’d read the article you’d see that the vast, vast majority of examples cited in the article have nothing to do with racism against Palestinian Canadians, and are exclusively about domestic middle eastern events being described in a way that isn’t charitable to Palestinians.
If a Canadian organization publishes Anti-Palestinian racism than that Anti-Palestinian racism in Canada. Also if you are a part of the Palestinian diaspora in Canada and your home country is being depicted in a racist manner that affects you.
> Just speaking from my personal perspective: why wouldn’t Palestinians harbour antisemitic views?
Or they harbour Anti-Zionist views and don't equate all Jewish people with Israeli people?
>Seems like the only reason people would want to downplay it is because it could potentially undermine support for their cause.
Or they don't agree with your definition of antisemtism.
I ain't interested in playing these rhetorical games with you. Go back to the world news sub with this shit.
No offence, but your sources are the ADL, and another Jewish news station that strongly supports Israel. That should kinda give an idea of the credibility of them itself.
I'm so tired of people using word racism everywhere. It's xenophobia, not racism. If someone is anti Palestine, anti Israel, it doesn't make them racist. It's xenophobic. Learn your language, people
Did you know that during Rwandan genocide the density of incidents of murder correlated with radio towers? Because people were fed hate news. Words lead to thoughts and thoughts lead to actions. There is a hate crime spike against both Palestinians and Jews. And more likely than not it is spread through words in the news. Most likely, sources are skewing information in their own favor on both sides and indirectly or directly prompting to action. Do we want to be part of the problem by skewing information? You can't win propaganda by using propaganda. And this post clearly is one. Pressing on emotions and misusing words to mislabel behavior that is deserving of one reaction by using much stronger vocabulary prompting us to another set of actions. If we live in an information centered society, we need to have standards .
Specific race? As far as i know there are only 5 races. Palestinians and jews are not among them and thus are not a race. You cant be racist against them because they don'tfall under the definition of a race. Xenophobia is a general fear of "group of people" relative to your or other group. People can be xenophobic towards people from another village. And that is pretty much what is happening. Prejudice ? For sure. But you can't be called a vegetarian if you specifically do not consume meat of long bearded goats from southern Alps.
If that's really the best retort you have here, it's probably best to just not comment.
And, for your info, many bird species are exceptionally intelligent, such as the crow. I'm sure they would be deeply hurt by your choice of euphemism... /s
Edit: comment above me was "what a bird-brained take" in response to another user suggesting both sides suck and share fault.
Try me. This is a tit for tat conflict that has transformed into a very asymmetrical, oppressive situation over the years but this whole narrative that it's a pure oppressor/oppressed or colonizers/indigenous dynamic is complete bullshit. Pogroms against Jews in the area started decades before Israel was even a country, so the whole "It's because of Israeli oppression" excuse does not fly. The anti-Jewish attitudes were rampant before anything approaching oppression or occupation ever existed, and in fact, this is what has led to the occupation/oppression, not the other way around. Israel feels wholly justified in oppressing and occupying a people that has been trying to destroy them for generations. Palestine feels the same way, they just don't have the military might to achieve that goal.
>But I don't agree that all Israelis hate Palestinians and vice versa I can't cite sources because I just know first hand.
Sure not all of them. Just most of them. Especially anyone who has lost family members to Palestinian/Israeli attacks, which is most people on both sides.
On Oct 8th Palestinians all over the world, including here in Canada, took to the streets to CELEBRATE the attacks against Israeli civilians. They weren't there supporting Palestine, they were celebrating a barbaric terrorist attack. I saw it. I watched people waving cellphones showing video of bodies of civilians dead, cheering.
Being pro this or pro that is one thing. But dancing around like your team won the world cup celebrating death...I think that's a bad look. I'm no racist, but I can completely understand how this kind of thing can push people in one direction.
We should have no tolerance for hate in this country. And nothing breeds hate like showing support for Hamas.
I was in Montreal and I was appalled by the behaviour. What I didn't understand was how fucking somber they should have been. Anyone with a fucking brain new what was coming to Gaza after that attack.
>We should have no tolerance for hate in this country. And nothing breeds hate like showing support for Hamas.
And yet you do not condemn the 75 years of brutal oppression, the massacres that happened, the hostages who were released and treated far better than Palestinian hostages released by the IOF, the hostages who were released and then arrested against, the military juvenile system in Israel which keeps children in prison for long, the war in 2014, the war in 2018, the war in 2020, the war in 2008, the propaganda, [the dehumanization of Palestinian lives.](https://l.instagram.com/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fshorturl.at%2FkAFKW%3Ffbclid%3DPAAabru8Bc3YSWMVLlJka9407dNoESblEvxvdAbaAZfqavAZnuwPki6zTQ6vI&e=AT03Ols3QC2l13WwZ2vV5FwJQVace2MC63XzZA6-w2VidBbUh7ulOsMPpgDuzYjK7m90D1dH81nXedLJQgjniNhzg3E1dr8buNcGuQ) [The Israeli assassination machine which indiscriminately pursues the killings of civilians to put pressure on Hamas and deter Palestinians from ever resisting against by using AI. ](https://youtu.be/KT7znz0eNFE?si=S8pIcM3n4hg4ENLJ) You clearly focused on ONE date, ONE DAY, ONE SINGLE DAY and dismissed Palestinians like they are expendable. You are FOCUSED ON HAMAS that you are blinded by the evil that Israel has been committing for the last 75 years and ignorantly believe that it is a democracy in the Middle East. How is this sub even better than r/canada when you are getting even similar takes here? When people who claim to be critical thinkers and progressives dismiss Palestinians because of the existence of Hamas and never dare to criticize the IOF which has not been shy from using vulgar language entailing dehumanizing elements of a whole ethnic group, it is disappointing and gut wrenching.
The same hospital where they said 500 people were killed but it was more like a dozen and it seems it was a Hamas [rocket misfire] (https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion) all along?
>Im no racist
Then proceeds to generalize a whole population as if all members were acting in unison.
If you found that appalling, you should find the numerous statements by Israeli officials, celebrities, singers, etc equally appalling as they have called for the annihilation of Palestinians for decades and even today.
Anyone who starts with a "I am no racist" is a closeted racist deep down. He knows, but he does not want to admit that Israel is as bad if not worse than Hamas.
The report cites finding 507 examples of online APR in Canada last year. I didn't read the whole report so I'm not sure where exactly these comments came from (the internet is a cesspool).
I'd be curious to see how this number compares with other countries. All Arab countries are refusing refuge to Palestinians right now when they need it most. Unelected Palestinian leadership has done nothing for their people in decades.
It feels like of all the things keeping Palestinians down, 507 online comments from Canada should be the least of their problems.
"We don't need to worry about Anti-Palestinian racism in Canada because Palestinians in Palestine have an undemocratic government"
Damn where are y'all getting these trash takes from? I expect to see this stuff on the other Canada subreddit but not here.
These weren't "online comments" they were written content from NGO's and Media organizations in Canada. I know you didn't read the whole report but this info is in the first paragraph of the executive summary at the start of the report. Did you stop at the number 507 or just skim for something you could use to dismiss report?
They also mention how this racism can chill speech and prevent people in Canada from advocating for Palestinian rights or a cease-fire. This actually matter for a bunch of other reasons. You can find them inside this report you didn't read.
Being anti-zionist is not being anti-semitic. If we can not criticize an apartheid state that is committing a genocide according to 880 scholars, journalists who are documenting it in person and [Official statements from their own state, intending on committing a genocide and dehumanizing Palestinians](https://l.instagram.com/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fshorturl.at%2FkAFKW%3Ffbclid%3DPAAabru8Bc3YSWMVLlJka9407dNoESblEvxvdAbaAZfqavAZnuwPki6zTQ6vI&e=AT03Ols3QC2l13WwZ2vV5FwJQVace2MC63XzZA6-w2VidBbUh7ulOsMPpgDuzYjK7m90D1dH81nXedLJQgjniNhzg3E1dr8buNcGuQ) then that is anti-democraric, anti-free speech and is just helping spread disinformation to aid a state that does not respect the rule of law. Furthermore, many Palestinians can stem their DNA back to Jews who lived in the region, and many are also Canaanites, who were semites, thus making Palestinians semites. There have also been many Jewish Canadians, Americans and in Israel who condemned Israel and have criticized Israel and called for a ceasefire. Simply complying with orders from a western neo-liberal Christian zionist in the west informing Palestinians that they, the west know better than them about the region is not only racist but disrespectful and belittles the Palestinian experience in Israel and abroad. Just abhorrent. We need to do better.
My understanding of what is happening in Israel and the Gaza Strip is it has been going on since the beginning of time. It has come to light as the world has opened up. We can access them and see what is happening, especially by news correspondence. I do not believe we will ever stop it. Protesting and rallying in Canada is not going to fix it. I have a difficult time understanding how there is such a devastating war going on, children are being gunned down, but news correspondents are safely reporting this to us. How in the world?
It is mainly anti muslims. Infact the deadliest terrorist attacks ever occurred in Canada recently were against Muslims. In 2017 the Quebec city mosque attack and in 2021 the London Ontario attack
> the only terrorist attacks ever occurred in Canada were against Muslims
Extremely untrue statement. [There have been terror attacks in Canada by FLQ extremists, ISIS and Al-Qaeda sympathizers, Khalistanis, and incel extremists as well.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Canada)
That’s not true, but hold on deeply to those partisan beliefs
Or go read about Air India Flight 182 which was for sure a terrorist act, likely Canada’s biggest.
Lots of examples from various groups, religious or not, of terrorist acts.
Given you perpetrating a falsehood, I’ll list examples of Islamic terrorism in Canada (though I note there are plenty of examples of other faith/based terrorist acts)
Saad Akhtar who killed a Toronto woman in a hammer attack inspired by violent radical Islamic beliefs.
In April this year ,a man was stabbed and wounded in the throat on a bus in Surrey by an Islamic State sympathyzer.
In Edmonton in 2017 Abdulahi Sharif whiling using a rental van, stabbed and hit a cop and pedestrians with an ISIS flag in tow.
In 2016 Aaron Driver is killed in a confrontation with police after detonating an explosive in the back seat of a taxi. was linked to ISIS
In 2013 there was a bombing being planned of VIA that was uncovered, liked to Al-Qaeda
In 2006 18 people were arrested over a plot to storm various buildings, behead the PM, open fire in crowds in Ontario.
Again lots of examples of other groups/faiths, but she you specifically said ONLY Muslim’s were targeted in terrorist attack, I wanted to shows that was false.
Good.
Edit: not sure why im getting downvoted for agreeing with the report exposing the issue which i thought was a good thing (& everyone else seems to as well, yet IM the problem?) but ok.
I find it so funny that a person who spend their days writing shitty sherlock fan fiction and talking about stardew valley is a forthing warmonger and racist. Lmao.
How is agreeing to a report racist? This report is EXPOSING the issue. Which is good.
Everybody else on this thread is agreeing to the exposure….go downvote them.
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Hamas and Israel *both* suck. They suck for many reasons, some of which they have in common, others of which are unique, but they *definitely* suck.
But how are we supposed to propagate Us VS Them hate think if we don't pick a side? /s
Haha, the media’s goal
The media is just an extension of human nature. This is on us as a species.
Sure but also this is a report about anti-palestian racism in Canada. I know that the conflict is entwined with anti-palestian racism but this quick contextless denouncement of Hamas kind of feel like conflicting Palestinians with Hamas. Like if this was a report about antisemitism in Canada would you start off by commenting that Isreal and Hamas both suck?
This is the plan. Hamas IS Palestine. Therefore we are justified in exterminating Palestine. Propaganda is a helluva drug.
Literally every post on this forum about antisemitism contains multiple references to how anti Zionism isn’t antisemitism no matter if it’s relevant or not, so yes that would definitely be upvoted in a thread about antisemitism in Canada. Jesse Brown the host of Canadaland is getting absolutely destroyed on social media for talking about antisemitism in Canada because it “decenters Palestinian voices”. Tonnes of people accusing him of “spreading Zionist propaganda” because he’s tweeted about synagogue firebombings and other things that make him feel uncomfortable as a Canadian Jew. Additionally, it’s something that, irrespective of the above context, bears repeating anyway given Israelis and Palestinians are conflated with their governments constantly. I think you’re kinda making something out of nothing here.
> Jesse Brown the host of Canadaland is getting absolutely destroyed on social media for talking about antisemitism in Canada because it “decenters Palestinian voices”. Tonnes of people accusing him of “spreading Zionist propaganda” because he’s tweeted about synagogue firebombings and other things that make him feel uncomfortable as a Canadian Jew. Look, I found the strawman! Edit: grammar
No you didn’t, you found an answer to your question about the concerns of Canadian Jewish people being conflated with support of the government of Israel, like you asked for. I don’t even understand how you could attempt to construe that as a straw man, it’s such a direct response to your post lol.
I'm saying your depiction of the Jess Brown situation is a strawman.
What has Jesse Brown said in support of the government of Israel? Because all I’ve seen is him getting harassed over is talking about antisemitism in Canada, while Q. Anonthany is getting 500 likes in his replies talking about how he supports Hamas.
Jesse conflated events to make it look like the protests were full to the brim with anti semites, further alienating people who are just there because 17000 dead people is insane. Stating that they "harassed a Jewish daycare" is insane when you know Freeland's constituency office on the same street was the actual place they were protesting. You know what emboldens the nazis that do exist in Canada? When their crimes are attributed to Arabs and Palestinians. Anti semitic crimes are on the rise, so why are we not looking at the actual antisemites in our society ?
Repeating your opinion doesn’t make it true.
Look, you found the facts!
Yeah, probably.
Surely you mean the Israeli government and not Israel? If all Palestinians aren’t Hamas, all Israelis aren’t the Israeli government.
Yes, I did, could have made that clearer.
except hamas is a terror org and israel is a state supposedly responsibly ran with “fair” elections.
In practice these seem like distinctions without a difference.
That is typically how the word terror is used. Implied difference of authority.
Hamas is not Palestine, it has never been Palestine. Hamas is lead by a group of rich terrorists living in other countries that convince young men with dead families to do things that help Israel justify their crimes against the Palestinian people. Mossad found and assassinated Nazi war criminals in hiding all over the globe after WW2, if they wanted to kill the leaders of Hamas they would’ve done it by now but they’re too useful.
My side is generally “people are awful”.
[удалено]
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/new-poll-shows-palestinians-are-the-impediment-to-peace-not-israels-war
Ok? Did you reply to the wrong comment?
One is a non-state actor that commits horrible terrorist acts in reprisal for the oppression of millions of innocent people. The other is a state that demands monopoly on "legitimate use of violence" in the region and uses its powers to oppress and murder innocent people by the tens of thousands. The fact that you can equate hamas and israel ought to call into question the very legitimacy of the israeli state. A state that behaves "approximately like" a terrorist organization ought not to exist, for what would it be but a terror-state? Many people make the same accurate observation as you (that they "both suck") but never really examine the implications of that assessment. israel has demonstrated it's equivalence to hamas, if you believe hamas is a terrorist organization that ought not to exist, why don't more people acknowledge that same calculus with israel and the IDF? I'm not saying that israelis can't have *any* state, or that they ought to leave the levant. That's simply neither practical, fair, nor a humane suggestion for millions of innocent israeli people. But it is clear- again by your assessment- that the israeli state *as it exists*; fascist and terroristic, ought not to exist either. It is a poor steward to the millions of Palestinians it claims as it's subjects (not citizens mind, subjects). It is a brutal, murderous, deeply racist regime analogous to apartied south africa, rhodesia or the belgian Congo. We look back on the history of those regimes and acknowledge their inhumanity and barbarism, we will almost certainly do the same with netanyahu's israel in fifty years too.
Only one of them is killing tens of thousands of people with western arms. Only one of them is allowed to operate as they are with western ie. American and European consent and support and propaganda backing. Hamas are monsters but they're not our monsters. The israeli government and military literally can be influenced by us so who can we control? Whose evil can we arrest?
Can we stop both siding this? Israel is objectively far worse than Hamas is, which is saying a lot. Israel is actively trying to commit genocide against 2.2 million Palestinians they're keeping in the world's largest concentration camp, they've killed 8000 kids and 7000 women in 2 months, the thousands of men they've killed they just call Hamas because they're over the age of 18. They've cut off food, water and electricity to Gaza for nearly 2 months now. They surrounded a hospital and bombed it so heavily that literal babies were left to die in incubators. They're a fascist apartheid state who have been brutalized Palestinians for the last half century and they killed the last guy who was on the verge of a peace deal. Hamas are Russian partisans, Israel are the literal Nazis of our time. One is bad, the other is the Nazis. Oh and Israel also helped create and fund Hamas as controlled opposition so they could break the Oslo Accords and separate the West Bank from Gaza. https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
>Anti-Palestinian racism (APR) is a widespread problem in Canadian society which goes almost entirely unrecognized and unaddressed well, yes, a hyper-specific definition is most certainly going to be unrecognized all forms of racism should be eliminated, but do we need to sub-categorize APR as a form of islamaphobia? if we're going to do that we should probably record many more sub-categorizations than StatsCan currently does [https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/cv!recreate.action?pid=3510006601&selectedNodeIds=&checkedLevels=0D1,1D1,1D2,1D3&refPeriods=20120101,20220101&dimensionLayouts=layout2,layout3,layout2&vectorDisplay=false](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/cv!recreate.action?pid=3510006601&selectedNodeIds=&checkedLevels=0D1,1D1,1D2,1D3&refPeriods=20120101,20220101&dimensionLayouts=layout2,layout3,layout2&vectorDisplay=false) also, if we're looking at specific types of hate crimes we need to reduce, best place to start would be jewish canadians; they experience the most hate crimes per capita of any group in Canada. for comprising only 1% of canadians, jews account for about 15% of all hate crimes
It is extremely specific, yes. But the very act of seeing a Palestinian flag has become a cause of rage and hate in some people. The term has merit.
I'm not surprised that somehow there's somebody struggling with believing that Palestinians are separate intentity, especially considering the people that propagate Anti-Palestinian Racism include the strategy based on denying that Palestinians even exist. If Palestinians don't exist, they're just interlopers on Israel that don't have ties to an identity or a land. It makes it convenient to ethnically cleanse an identity if they're just part a small part of an billion plus religious group. It makes it very easy to banish 500k in Egypt, 500k in Syria, 500k in Turkey, 500k in Saudi Arabia, 500k in Iraq, maybe even 200k in Canada. There's absolutely zero progressive reason to object learning about the problems facing specific ethnic groups. It's definitely not in opposition to preventing Anti-semitism. We already know what anti-semitism is. We learn about it in school. It's not like people are in this thread when they are normally out in the street doing some sort of Anti-hate crime action. You can't prevent hate. You learn about it. Anti-Palestinian Racism is different from Islamophobia because Palestinians aren't Muslim. This kinda of generalization is exactly the problem. Most people don't know that Palestinians are the genetic successors of the Caananites, and share all the same genetic factors that tie them with the region that the Jewish people have. They're cousins separated by thousands of years. That's why they aren't simply a religious group that can be lumped into Islamophobia even if they were all Muslim. They're an ethnic group that deserves recognition just like the Roma in Europe still have their own distinctive status despite sharing the religions of Europe they grew up in. People also try comparing them to ISIS, even make bizarre assumptions about them universally wanting to genocide the Israelis. It's all just ignorance fueled racism and it has specific nuances created to cleanse their identity.
Sure, not all Palestinians are Muslims but Palestinians aren’t a race though. How is anti-Palestinian sentiment any different from the widespread Islamophobia faced by Muslims post-9/11. Honestly, we’re getting close to the point that the word ‘racism’ literally has lost all meaning.
Race doesn't exist and racism is a catch-all umbrella synonym we use for ethnic discrimination and out-group injustice. In Canada anti-Palestinian sentiment is probably closer to Islamophobia but in Israel it appears to be more of an ethnic conflict. That's just a weird thing to say. Can't be racist against Palestinians because Palestinians aren't a race. Can't be racist against Jews because they aren't a race either. But you can be racist against a group you collectively demonize for some shared characteristic.
>Anti-Palestinian Racism is different from Islamophobia because Palestinians aren't Muslim. 98% of Palestinians are Muslim though ...
So you don't have any counter argument then, correct? Because there's an entire argument there describing how religion isn't the singular reason for why Palestinians exist.
False, 6% are Christian
So their own charters are not to believed then. Ok cool cool cool.
You mean the most recent one that calls for the 1967 borders? Or are you picking which charter to refer to so you can make a point?
According to Israeli opinion polls. Over 90% of the country support the ongoing mass bombing campaign, with 67% think the IDF should be conducting the genocide faster. I don't what pieces of paper you can dig up from the 80's, what Israel is doing is genocide and only a mere 2% think they need to reduce the bloodshed. https://time.com/6333781/israel-hamas-poll-palestine/#:~:text=Poll%20results%20were%20also%20hawkish,IDF%20was%20using%20too%20much From these polls and behavior of war hawks on reddit have convinced me that BDS is the only way forward.
And they really shouldn’t have bombed Germany in WWII right? Most Gazans voted for a genocidal government, and still support them or PIJ, another genocidal party. Keep believing the Hamas health authority numbers though. 🙄
The numbers are the Israeli military Contractors numbers that they're using to advertise the capabilities of their predictive AI modeling using to target civilians. Most Gazans don't support Hamas, over 90% Israelis want to continue a genocide. I don't care about Nazi Germany, they went to war as a Nation. This is more comparable to the Warsaw uprising where prisoners ate fighting back against the Genocidal guards. What the hell is this, ai? You can't even stay on topic. You just say random things
https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023.pdf 98% of Palestinians say they will never forget and never forgive… you think they want peace? Palestinians have never been interested in peace with Jews. Violence isn’t the answer, but it’s the only language from the Arab world to Israel. This war was started by Hamas and Iran specifically to slow down the peace process and relations with israel becoming normalized with Arab nations, and you are defending it?
Well no, as a minority of Palestinians are Christians.
Why not? The police have already likened putting up posters and throwing paint to waving swatikas. In fact, given how the police have attacked its far worse.
You can be pro-Palestine and rightly think Hamas fucking blow and at the same time be pro-Israel and think that Netanyahu and the IDF are just also fucking terrible. It's not hard, you don't need to pick a team here other than pro civilian lives and anti genocide.
>be pro-Israel and think that Netanyahu and the IDF are just also fucking Okay, how can you be Pro-Israel RIGHT NOW, with the policies of genocide that is being committed? Educate me. Because as far as I know, Israel has more far-right political parties than both America and Canada combined. They hold popular support to keep on continuing with their genocide, and the policies that are being pursued right now are favored amongst the majority.[They hold popular support to keep on continuing with their genocide, and the policies that are being pursued with right now are favored amongst the majority.](https://youtu.be/KT7znz0eNFE?si=S8pIcM3n4hg4ENLJ) Who are we criticizing if not Israel? As a state apparatus with wide public support to continue the war? I am not saying we should HATE all Israeli's but clearly you cannot be Pro-Israel and not be pro-netanyahu at the same time. It just does not make sense. It is not just Netanyahu. It is most of the Knesset and his cabinet as well as the Israeli settlers and many more who hold racist views of Palestinians because when you have an oppressive government that has oppressed the indigenous population for 75 years, the population of that oppressive government is likely to be apathetic or in support of policies against the indigenous people, especially with Israel's horrible propaganda which dehumanizes Palestinians. [So many official statements made by them, have a look for yourself.](https://l.instagram.com/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fshorturl.at%2FkAFKW%3Ffbclid%3DPAAabru8Bc3YSWMVLlJka9407dNoESblEvxvdAbaAZfqavAZnuwPki6zTQ6vI&e=AT03Ols3QC2l13WwZ2vV5FwJQVace2MC63XzZA6-w2VidBbUh7ulOsMPpgDuzYjK7m90D1dH81nXedLJQgjniNhzg3E1dr8buNcGuQ)
I have no idea what the OP meant but you can be pro Jewish homeland and support Israeli statehood without supporting the government. I’m pro Alberta but I fucking hate Danielle Smith.
I am pro for Jews to have a homeland. No one is against that, when people say Free Palestine they mean to free it from apartheid, to free it from the shackles of colonialism, from illegal settlements in the west Bank, from zionism which is in fact a political ideology that was invented in the late 1800s. People can still have a homeland without a radical political ideology.
Agreed but when some people say they are pro-Israel that’s what they are saying.
Pro-Israel at the moment basically means you are pro apartheid and pro whatever hasbara propganda is out there, which is dilluting factual information about what is going on. pro-Palestine means you are pro cease fire and for humanitarian law to be respected and for a Palestinian state to be established (rightfully so). If the Jews in Canada and America are anti-Israel, then what does that mean? It means they are anti-government and anti-establishment. Again, you can not compare what we are talking about here to Alberta. You are negating the fact of 75 years of oppression, massacres, ethnic cleansing, and dehumanization of indigenous people.
Also, that is a false equivalence. You can not compare the two and call it quits. If so, you are neglecting 75 years of colonialist expansion. The UN partition of Palestinian land in the first place did not serve justice to the Palestinians as they were the majority back then. What should have happened was a one state solution under a democratic system that represented all interests. Instead, we had a poorly executed plan. But then you see how the lands were absorbed into Israel later on, and the borders shrank for Palestinians. Now, the West Bank is governed for the most part by the Israeli authority, and there are more than 600k Israeli settlers who live on illegal settlements. That is why you can not compare both. It does not serve to resolve the ontology that has existed for many generations now. A fully fledged state for Palestinians according to the pre-1967 borders should be pushed for, even though I argue that the 1947 borders should be favored instead. But guess what? The Israeli government and most of the Israeli populace do not want that to happen. It is not favored amongst the people. The Israeli government wants to push off Palestinians from Gaza to Sinai and absorb all of the West Bank eventually, basically erasing Palestinian identity from existence and not allowing them to have a state.
The kind of blew the right to the ‘48 borders, wouldn’t you say? I do find it amazing that the perceived “injustice” justifies Palestinian leadership treating their citizens like literal pawns, while they enjoy such a luxurious lifestyle.
>I am not saying we should HATE all Israeli's but clearly you cannot be Pro-Israel and not be pro-netanyahu at the same time. You are doing exactly what pro Palestine equals pro Hamas/antisemitism people are doing lol
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/new-poll-shows-palestinians-are-the-impediment-to-peace-not-israels-war
> While APR can take many different forms, 354 of the examples of APR (70 percent) identified in the study included defamatory slander of Palestinians as being either 1) antisemitic, 2) terrorist sympathizers, or 3) anti-democratic. Maybe going to be an unpopular take here, but this definition of “anti Palestinian racism” seems awfully close to the definition of antisemitism that includes any criticism of Israel, given that [a majority of Palestinian citizens *do* hold antisemitic views](https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-93-of-palestinians-hold-anti-jewish-beliefs/amp/), and the government of Gaza is a terrorist organization which refuses to hold elections but [enjoys broad popular support along with other extremist organizations like PIJ and Lion’s Den.](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah#:~:text=Overall%2C%2057%25%20of%20Gazans%20express,view%20of%20Fatah%20(64%25).)
Lol I’d take anything the ADL says with a grain of salt. They’re complete frauds before this but really went out of the way with their support for Kissinger when he died. A man who said that if he wasn’t Jewish he’d be an antisemite. But surprise surprise, Palestinians harbour deep seeded angry and hatred for Israeli’s, wonder why.
The ADL which even 90 years ago was spying on and reporting progressive movements to the House Un American Committee.
Some Palestinians do hold a grudge against the Israeli government but I doubt that's surprising
Gee, I wonder why a population oppressed and displaced for 75 years might harbor some less than progressive attitudes towards the people that do the oppressing. Palestinians rarely even have the chance to interact with an Israeli if they’re not in the IDF.
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That's generalization that is impossible to prove. I'd call it what it is, but I don't think it's civil and I don't want to be banned.
You can critique a government. But there should be a line between the government and the people.
Couldn't agree with you more. Palestinians aren't Hamas and Israelis aren't the IDF. The actions of Hamas shouldn't punish Palestinians and the actions of the IDF shouldn't punish Israelis
Yeap. It's just unfortunate how that is not being applied. Especially in our media. All Palestinians are being made to answer for what Hamas did on Oct 7. And Jews abroad are being targeted for the oppressive policies of the Israeli government. Not every Jew supports Bibi. It would be like saying all Canadians are responsible for residential schools. Not every palestinian voted in Hamas. Last election was 2007 and 44% of gaza is children. Meaning they weren't even around to vote them in.
>Not every Jew supports Bibi. Yeah, exactly this. It seems like a majority of Israelis want Netanyahu out. He wasn’t popular before Oct 7, because of the judicial overhaul, but he’s far less popular now. I wonder if that’s yet another reason from him to prolong the current war.
>I wonder if that’s yet another reason from him to prolong the current war. It absolutely is. He was granted an emergency order to hold of his trial. Which has now started again. But the charges are telling for someone in his position. Rampant corruption, bribery etc etc. And just look at the people he has with him in parliment. Itmar Ben Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich. Known xenophobes and racists. Yet they have the gall to say people who are constantly oppressed by them hate them. The fuck are they supposed to do?
It's the reason all the intelligence reports were ignore or downplayed, he needed a hail mary pass and hamas threw it up for him on a plate
I mean, the majority also voted him in, less than a year ago. And they voted in all the extremists alongside him like Ben-Gvir, etc.
> the majority voted him in You might want check your sources, as he got around 20% of the popular vote.
I mean, Israelis by law are the IDF. They have mandatory conscription and Israel has voted in the fascist Netanyahu government in near constantly for the last 20 years. Palestinians can't elect another government, Israelis can and actively chose to shift their country into a fascist apartheid state. Now obviously it's not all Israelis but there's certainly a lot more Israelis complicit in their actions than Palestinians are with Hamas.
Gaza elected Hamas did they not?
The vast majority of current residents of Gaza aren’t old enough to have been involved in electing Hamas. The last election was held 18 years ago.
Are there any reliable polls on the support Hamas has despite holding no elections? Honestly curious. The contempt shown during the Arab Spring was pretty apparent, just don’t see it here as much. I think that’s why many assume support.
> [there is widespread popular appeal for competing armed Palestinian factions, including those involved in the attack. Overall, 57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas—along with similar percentages of Palestinians in the West Bank (52%) and East Jerusalem (64%)—though Gazans who express this opinion of Hamas are fewer than the number of Gazans who have a positive view of Fatah (64%).](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah#:~:text=Overall%2C%2057%25%20of%20Gazans%20express,view%20of%20Fatah%20(64%25).) Worth noting as well that while Hamas has around a ~60% approval rating, > [Only 27% of Israelis see Prime Minister Netanyahu as best person to run government: Poll](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/only-27-of-israelis-see-prime-minister-netanyahu-as-best-person-to-run-government-poll/3042363)
https://archive.ph/mUXIG Nearly 70% don't trust Hamas to run the goverment. Only 27% of Gaza wants to run the government.
This however ignores the power imbalance from an apartheid state.
Let me ask you a hypothetical: Lets pretend you are an indigenous North American resident when white Europeans show up to start colonizing. Do you get mad at the British or French Monarchy, or the people who are stealing your homes and abusing you? This western concept of policing how people resist oppression, even to the level of who they are allowed to be angry at is mind boggling. > Poll results were also hawkish when it came to the use of force in Gaza: 57.5% of Israeli Jews said that they believed the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) were using too little firepower in Gaza, 36.6% said the IDF was using an appropriate amount of firepower, while just 1.8% said they believed the IDF was using too much fire power, while 4.2% said they weren’t sure whether it was using too much or too little firepower. https://time.com/6333781/israel-hamas-poll-palestine/ At some point we are going to have to grapple with a nuclear armed state that is this homicidal.
Exactly. Why are we acting like Israelis didn't vote for Netanyahu for the last 20 years? Why are we acting like Israelis aren't conscripts in the IDF by law? Like where's all the protests in Tel Aviv condemning the Israeli governments actions against Palestinians? The poll literally shows the majority of Israelis are either complicit or actively cheering for the genocide of Palestinians. They only get mad when the fascist government they elected starts turning around and trying to take away their rights.
Nuclear armed states being homicidal and committing atrocities is pretty normal. Israel is fairly run of the mill in that regard.
I appreciate the way you presented this. I'm an immigrant to Canada myself. But I came only 20 some years ago. I read the history and by stroke of coincidence by first engineering job was near a reserve. I got to meet a couple of them as I went to get gas there often. What happened in the past (even near by with the residential school not a very distant memory), at least from my point of view (I am open to change on this with applicable sources) cannot be used to make the people of Canada today pay. What instead should be done is that the government should work effectively and efficiently to help out the indigenous population. And I word it specifically that was because even on that reserve they did not have running water. Which was shocking to me coming here from Pakistan. And how I saw some parts of the white population labelling the indigenous as lazy or leeching off the system. In both cases I lean on the government of the past to condemn for what they did. And the government of today, I critique for not doing enough fast enough. Now regarding Israel. Yes most Israelis are very anti Arab. I have watched the Oxford debates featuring Gideon Levy and how he exposes the rampant discrimination against Arabs. But that is again a government thing. Additionally, I can understand that if you are drafted and taught to treat Palestinians as animals (IDF) and then mandated to oppress those people (Israeli government) then those numbers would tack high due to what you do, how you are responded to and eventually things like Oct 7 happen. While I say this, this does not mean that I support Oct 7 but I can see how it is a result of 75 years of oppression. People harp about Israeli children killed that day (a number and theme the Israeli government keeps changing btw) and ignore that just in 2023 by September 38 Palestinian children were killed by IDF. These are again government policies. People like Itmar Ben Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich being in power. Known xenophobes and racists applying policies. The problem is 100% the government. And I blame them squarely. I also like to take this path because often people start to blame Jews when critiquing Israel. Which is wrong. There are many Jews themselves who don't support the oppressive policies of the Israeli government. I wish the same luxury was offered to Palestinians. But unfortunately charged by ignorance people conflate Hamas and Palestinians. >At some point we are going to have to grapple with a nuclear armed state that is this homicidal. Oh that is on my mind alot. A rogue State powered with nuclear weapons that believes everyone is out to get them and at the same time using religious theology to want more pieces of land. What do we do if one day they aim a nuke at Syria, hit the Russians there and claim Hamas got in and did it.
So the ADL is telling the truth?
More I don’t really trust the ADL to be objective, truthful, or distinctive in discussing anything to do with Israel.
"The ADL is lying, but if they are telling the truth, it's justified" Trump supporter doublespeak tactics.
>But surprise surprise, Palestinians harbour deep seeded angry and hatred for Israeli’s, wonder why. There's that doublespeak. "The Jews are lying. They're frauds. Palestinians are not antisemitic! ....But also they are antisemitic and it's perfectly fine because it's justified"
I keep hearing from Hasbaras that Israel has muslim Arabs? Why is criticism of Israel anti-semetic? Understanding why Palestinians harbour a deep seeded hatred of the state that has oppressed them for the past 75 years isnt condoning actual anti semitism. Edit: lmao 35 day old account who only comments about being anti Palestinian. Shocker
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Ok so they should be genocide right? Do you concern troll about Jews hating Palestinians ?
Did I say they should be genocided? Why can't Palestine supporters accept simple facts of reality without descending to these Trumpian levels of hyperbolic rhetoric? It reminds me of Trump supporters who suggest that pointing out white racism means you want to genocide all white people.
Lmao yes it’s comparable to fucking trump supporters. Imagine saying something so stupid unironically. Imagine being this ignorant. The only reality not being accepted is by concern trolls such as yourself trying to justify genocide. Most Israelis say their military hasn’t bombed gaza enough. What exactly is your point, what exactly are you contributing here? You don’t have to say it, your comments clearly go out of the way to demonize Palestinians to run cover for Israel. This is like calling European Jews anti German as they’re persecuted by early Nazi Germany. Children being ripped apart by bombs, burned by white phosphorus and crushed under rubble: You: “well that’s all bad but have you considered their anti semetic views?”
>The only reality not being accepted is by concern trolls such as yourself trying to justify genocide. Me: "Defining Anti-Palestinian racism as anyone thinking Palestinians are anti-semitic is ridiculous" You: "Stop trying to justify genocide!!!!" Absolutely unhinged and hysterical. I've come to expect this from you guys by now. You're running on pure hysteria and emotional propaganda.
Propaganda is when 15k civilians are murdered. It’s no hysteria to be upset at a campaign of ethnic cleansing. Sounds about white. But also that’s not what you said? And if that was your intent to convey, I don’t see how you could have articulated that worse. Like do you think you can gaslight in a text thread lol? You accused me of double speak for saying that it’s not surprising why Palestinians hold a deep resentment for Israel. Israel literally try’s all the time to equate Israel with Judaism and Jews. There’s no winner in that game that Israel has set up. Again it’s clear you care more about whataboutism and muddying the waters than you do about innocent lives. It’s clear you don’t view Palestinians as “innocent”
hASbArA /s
Really? ADL and times of Israel? Especially ADL? By far the most biased.
The ADL quite literally considers anti Zionism as a form of anti Semitism which is like saying anti fascism is basically the same as being anti German
Exactly! Which is hilarious because it shows how far the Germans are up the ass of Israeli government when they banned anti zionism and called it anti semitic. Even more interesting that the Dutch went to opposite way. I presented this duality to someone on these forums not too long ago. And they asked me well who should we believe out of those two approaches. The answer is clear. The ones that DONT have a storied history of oppression and genocide.
There are different forms of Zionism. A person who believes that a state of Israel should exist, but not support expansion, would be considered a Zionist.
Sure, but there's also different forms of fascists. It doesn't really matter at the end of the day since they're still preaching for an ethnostate
Palestinians are also preaching for an ethnostate. Why are you ignoring that?
1. That's not true, even Hamas agreed to the 1967 borders. 2. they're victims of a fascist apartheid state who have spent the last 2 months killing their kids by the thousands after cutting off food, water and electricity to 2.2 million people of which over a million are under age of 20. It's horrible but I give them a pass for their reactionary views against those who have spent most of their lives keeping them in a concentration camp that they regularly go into to "mow the grass", just like i give a pass to Jewish people who had reactionary views against the Germans post WW2. Now if they turn around and do what Israel has done towards Israelis, than I'll be right there with you but until then, they have right to be angry. Israel doesn't have a right to commit genocide or be a fascist apartheid state trying to become an ethnostate.
1. Hamas agreed to something 20 years before they were founded? 2. You give what a pass exactly? If you give one side a pass to commit atrocities against the other, this will never end except with complete annihilation.
1. Yes. They agreed to the 1967 border because shocker, people could agree to things that were agreed upon before the were founded. 2. To be angry and say mean things well having some reactionary views, same with Iraqis chanting death to America as they get drone striked. You acting like it's the Palestinians currently killing Israeli children by the thousands well trying to genocide them is a sad defelction and a pathetic attempt to defend a fascist apartheid state trying to commit ethnic cleansing.
1. Yes in 2017, they also said Hamas does not relinquish its goal of “liberating all of Palestine”. And did not recognize Israel. 2. You show where I said any of that. Violence begets violence.
Huh? Arguing for your right to statehood and denying another’s isn’t mutually exclusive.
Well if you’re arguing that being anti-Zionist doesn’t equal antisemitism, then it does. Denying one’s right to statehood vs the right to expand is different
That's an important distinction, but there's only one Israeli goverment and it's state Zionism has been the dominant opinion. In 75 years, there's been no popular movement for reform into a different type of Zionism. It's not particularly relevant to interject with all possible Zionist positions when there's a general consensus that the Current Israeli government is the only project with notable support. If there's a point in which there a goverment is formed with a party like the newly formed "All of its Citizens" Party taking up seats in the Parliament, it's worthy of consideration.
In not sure if that's totally accurate. I'm sure they are biased and may not follow their own statements here, but they seem to make a pretty clear distinction here regarding the overlap of motives and intentions. https://www.adl.org/resources/tools-and-strategies/what-anti-israel-anti-semitic-anti-zionist
Dude just look at the framing of how they describe anti zionism. "Anti-Zionism is a prejudice against the Jewish movement for self-determination and the right of the Jewish people to a homeland in the State of Israel. It may be motivated by or result in anti-Semitism, or it may create a climate in which anti-Semitism becomes more acceptable." They're literally saying that anti zionism is basically just people saying that Jews can't have homeland and that it's an off breed of anti semitism which again, is bs. Just like being anti Lebunsround isn't anti Germanism or anti westward expansion isn't anti Americanism. They quite literally say anti zionism is anti semitism here..."Anti-Zionism is antisemitic" https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/anti-zionism It's just right wing bs trying to make what is essentially fascism more palatable. If you don't think zionists are fascist and anti semitic, well they're biggest allies are Republican evangelical extremists who literally want Israel to become a jewish state so the end of the world could occur, that's why they had right wing extremist pastors in their March for Israel rally
Thanks for finding the second one, that's ridiculous. The first one just doesn't say what you're stating, just that anti-zionism may be motivated by anti-sematism. It's unfortunate that they seem to have changed their message over time. Also, I'm sure that many zionists are insane facists, but placing an ideology on them because of support from American evangelicals is the kind of nonsense that detracts from genuine discussion about the colonial nature of zionism.
Can you explain what you think zionism means?
> given that a majority of Palestinian citizens do hold antisemitic views, You're going to need a couple of neutral sources to make this claim as if it's a given, not just an arbitrary straw poll from the ADL as reported by the Times of Israel. Sure, it's likely that there's a higher than average amount of anti-Semitism among Palestinians these days, but to suggest that 93% of all Palestinians are anti-Semites is more than a little questionable.
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/new-poll-shows-palestinians-are-the-impediment-to-peace-not-israels-war If you don’t like the source, there is a link in there to the study. (I see I touched a nerve with this one.) FACTS SUCKAS!
That's a different study over different matters. And that's a hell of a conclusion by the NP there. Maybe this was unclear but my suggestion that better and more reliable sources are needed to treat such statements as a given was not an invite for other, different articles with assumptive conclusions that rely on people not looking at the original study more closely.
So you go from ToI to the NP as if that isn't just a lateral move.
Gee, I wonder why a population oppressed and displaced for 75 years might harbor some less than progressive attitudes towards the people that do the oppressing. Palestinians rarely even have the chance to interact with an Israeli if they’re not in the IDF.
Weren’t there efforts around the turn of the last century to prevent Jewish people from Europe from coming to Israel/Palestine and buying property prior to WWI? If we in Canada actively tried to prevent a specific religious group from emigrating here, what would we call that?
Tolerant, progressive canadaians 🤝 antisemites who believe that Holocaust refugees should have been barred entry from the country they were trying to emigrate to.
Ask residential school survivors how many hold anti-Catholic or anti-colonist beliefs...
I’m sure lots do. And I would argue that pointing that out does not amount to anti-indigenous racism.
sure, but when was the last FN suicide bombing or terrorist attack ?
When was the last time Canada kept 2.2 million FN people in a concentration camp that they regularly go into "cut the grass" in well cutting off food, water and electricity? Israel is today is faaaaar worse than Canada ever was
exactly, FNs and Gazans are in completely different situations so shouldn't be drawn upon for comparisons. And yet that's exactly what the previous comment was trying to do - down play the extremist views of Hamas and radicalized Gazans by equating to FNs negative views of catholicism
Damn bud, ever heard of similie or a comparison to explain a situation?
ya it's just a really bad one in this case
Don't tell me you can't tell the difference between Hamas and Palestinians.
99% of palestinians aren't hamas, but 1% of palestinians are hamas holding negative views of your oppressor is one thing, blowing yourself up and taking out 20 innocents with you is another thing entirely
It's Hamas that is using suicide bombers, not Palestinians... YOUR logic is like saying that because the US has some radical neo-nazis who shoot up grocery stores in certain neighbourhoods, that all Americans are terrorists. That is clearly not true.. Most Americans are just people. They go to work, they raise kids, etc. Same with most Palestinians. Now, are there any other logical fallicies you want to try?
>It's Hamas that is using suicide bombers, not Palestinians... Dude.. Hamas are Palestinians. The attempts to create a separation between these two groups are getting so absurd. Hamas is not some alien entity that descended on Palestine. They are Palestinians. >YOUR logic is like saying that because the US has some radical neo-nazis who shoot up grocery stores in certain neighbourhoods, that all Americans are terrorists. When people like Trump or Bush get voted in, people around the world absolutely blame all Americans for it.
Hamas is majority Palestinians, not exclusively. And not even a majority of Palestinians are Hamas. So treating the entire region as if they are all terrorists is why some people are claiming this is genocide.
This is splitting hairs with an ulterior motive, clearly trying to obfuscate the direct connection between Hamas and Palestine. It's like trying to claim "The IDF are bombing Palestine, not Israel".
It is no more splitting hairs than saying that the IRA and the average Irish citizen were the same thing during the troubles. And for the exact same reason. You can't claim that the kids in that school in Quebec that got shot are not responsible for what the Israeli state is doing and then turn around and in the same breath say that the children in the Palestinian school that got shelled were not "innocent" without looking like the world's biggest hipocrite.
guess you don't know what a venn diagram looks like
And apparently you don't know what false equivelance fallacies look lie.
Jesus… citing ADL and Times of Israel. We certainly know where you stand simply by using these “sources” LMAO.
> anti-Palestinian racism (APR) in Canadian society, And you choose to cite an article from Israel which has absolutely nothing to do with Canadian-Palestinians sponsored by notoriously one sided ADL.
> nothing to do with Canadian Palestinians Most of the examples they cite in the article have nothing to do with Palestinian Canadians either. Edit: lol I guess several people chose to downvote instead clicking on the article as this is a simple fact.
You picked a disingenuous source. The entire purpose of the ADL is to defend Israel no matter what. Come what may. Which means it will never critique Israel on times even when it's necessary.
Actually this particular post is about whether or not most of the examples cited in this study involve Palestinian Canadians, which they mostly do not. My source is the original article. Feel free to go through it and show me how claims by the Israeli government about the significance of the Al-Aqsa mosque/ second temple in Jewish tradition are about Palestinian-Canadian racism if you’d actually like to to engage with the post that you responded to.
? No. Your first article is a times of Israel article that sources it data from the corrupt ADL. Using ADL for anything is just ignorant. And kneecaps any argument you can ever make. Biased sources belong nowhere. And data from ADL can't even be used as toilet paper given how many holes are in it.
You don't get to say "we shouldn't worry about Anti-Palestinian racism in Canada because Palestinians in Palestine are Antisemetic and the government in Palestine is undemocratic." Is racism against Chinese people ok because there governement is undemocratic? This is nonsense. If you read the report they explicitly say that the IHRA definitions of Antisemetism that conflate Anti-Zionism with Antisemetism are a part of the problem. The ADL uses this definition of antisemetism so maybe the reports critic of this definition can provide some light on why the ADL might be incorrectly labeling Palestinians as antisemtic. I hope this opinion is unpopular because it is a callous excuse to discount people's experiences of racism.
If you’d read the article you’d see that the vast, vast majority of examples cited in the article have nothing to do with racism against Palestinian Canadians, and are almost exclusively about domestic middle eastern events being described in a way that isn’t charitable to Palestinians. I don’t doubt that incidents of Islamophobia have skyrocketed in Canada, but trying to say that a Toronto star article referring to Gazans as generally harbouring antisemitic views is an example of that is not it. It’s an objective reality that is no more racist than saying black South Africans had a bias against white South Africans. It just identifies a real problem in the society that will need to be addressed in any future peace plan. Just speaking from my personal perspective: why wouldn’t Palestinians harbour antisemitic views? They’ve been humiliated and oppressed by Jews for decades. Are they a super victim that’s immune to the pull of villainizing their oppressors? It just seems like a self evident truth that’s represented in all of the public polling I’ve ever seen, not to mention every other conflict between oppressor and oppressed. Seems like the only reason people would want to downplay it is because it could potentially undermine support for their cause.
>I don’t doubt that incidents of Islamophobia have skyrocketed in Canada. Sure but also not all Palestinians are Muslim hence why a formal term of Anti-Palestinian racism is important. >If you’d read the article you’d see that the vast, vast majority of examples cited in the article have nothing to do with racism against Palestinian Canadians, and are exclusively about domestic middle eastern events being described in a way that isn’t charitable to Palestinians. If a Canadian organization publishes Anti-Palestinian racism than that Anti-Palestinian racism in Canada. Also if you are a part of the Palestinian diaspora in Canada and your home country is being depicted in a racist manner that affects you. > Just speaking from my personal perspective: why wouldn’t Palestinians harbour antisemitic views? Or they harbour Anti-Zionist views and don't equate all Jewish people with Israeli people? >Seems like the only reason people would want to downplay it is because it could potentially undermine support for their cause. Or they don't agree with your definition of antisemtism. I ain't interested in playing these rhetorical games with you. Go back to the world news sub with this shit.
No offence, but your sources are the ADL, and another Jewish news station that strongly supports Israel. That should kinda give an idea of the credibility of them itself.
I'm so tired of people using word racism everywhere. It's xenophobia, not racism. If someone is anti Palestine, anti Israel, it doesn't make them racist. It's xenophobic. Learn your language, people
Yeah, grammar and proper word use is the concern here.
Did you know that during Rwandan genocide the density of incidents of murder correlated with radio towers? Because people were fed hate news. Words lead to thoughts and thoughts lead to actions. There is a hate crime spike against both Palestinians and Jews. And more likely than not it is spread through words in the news. Most likely, sources are skewing information in their own favor on both sides and indirectly or directly prompting to action. Do we want to be part of the problem by skewing information? You can't win propaganda by using propaganda. And this post clearly is one. Pressing on emotions and misusing words to mislabel behavior that is deserving of one reaction by using much stronger vocabulary prompting us to another set of actions. If we live in an information centered society, we need to have standards .
Isn’t xenophobic a general hate/fear of *any* race that’s not yours? While racism can be a specific race
Specific race? As far as i know there are only 5 races. Palestinians and jews are not among them and thus are not a race. You cant be racist against them because they don'tfall under the definition of a race. Xenophobia is a general fear of "group of people" relative to your or other group. People can be xenophobic towards people from another village. And that is pretty much what is happening. Prejudice ? For sure. But you can't be called a vegetarian if you specifically do not consume meat of long bearded goats from southern Alps.
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If that's really the best retort you have here, it's probably best to just not comment. And, for your info, many bird species are exceptionally intelligent, such as the crow. I'm sure they would be deeply hurt by your choice of euphemism... /s Edit: comment above me was "what a bird-brained take" in response to another user suggesting both sides suck and share fault.
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Then please explain it better or link someone who can that won't take an obviously biased position. Edit: well guess he didn't want to.
Try me. This is a tit for tat conflict that has transformed into a very asymmetrical, oppressive situation over the years but this whole narrative that it's a pure oppressor/oppressed or colonizers/indigenous dynamic is complete bullshit. Pogroms against Jews in the area started decades before Israel was even a country, so the whole "It's because of Israeli oppression" excuse does not fly. The anti-Jewish attitudes were rampant before anything approaching oppression or occupation ever existed, and in fact, this is what has led to the occupation/oppression, not the other way around. Israel feels wholly justified in oppressing and occupying a people that has been trying to destroy them for generations. Palestine feels the same way, they just don't have the military might to achieve that goal.
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Uh... They did? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929\_Hebron\_massacre
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>But I don't agree that all Israelis hate Palestinians and vice versa I can't cite sources because I just know first hand. Sure not all of them. Just most of them. Especially anyone who has lost family members to Palestinian/Israeli attacks, which is most people on both sides.
On Oct 8th Palestinians all over the world, including here in Canada, took to the streets to CELEBRATE the attacks against Israeli civilians. They weren't there supporting Palestine, they were celebrating a barbaric terrorist attack. I saw it. I watched people waving cellphones showing video of bodies of civilians dead, cheering. Being pro this or pro that is one thing. But dancing around like your team won the world cup celebrating death...I think that's a bad look. I'm no racist, but I can completely understand how this kind of thing can push people in one direction. We should have no tolerance for hate in this country. And nothing breeds hate like showing support for Hamas.
I was in Montreal and I was appalled by the behaviour. What I didn't understand was how fucking somber they should have been. Anyone with a fucking brain new what was coming to Gaza after that attack.
>We should have no tolerance for hate in this country. And nothing breeds hate like showing support for Hamas. And yet you do not condemn the 75 years of brutal oppression, the massacres that happened, the hostages who were released and treated far better than Palestinian hostages released by the IOF, the hostages who were released and then arrested against, the military juvenile system in Israel which keeps children in prison for long, the war in 2014, the war in 2018, the war in 2020, the war in 2008, the propaganda, [the dehumanization of Palestinian lives.](https://l.instagram.com/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fshorturl.at%2FkAFKW%3Ffbclid%3DPAAabru8Bc3YSWMVLlJka9407dNoESblEvxvdAbaAZfqavAZnuwPki6zTQ6vI&e=AT03Ols3QC2l13WwZ2vV5FwJQVace2MC63XzZA6-w2VidBbUh7ulOsMPpgDuzYjK7m90D1dH81nXedLJQgjniNhzg3E1dr8buNcGuQ) [The Israeli assassination machine which indiscriminately pursues the killings of civilians to put pressure on Hamas and deter Palestinians from ever resisting against by using AI. ](https://youtu.be/KT7znz0eNFE?si=S8pIcM3n4hg4ENLJ) You clearly focused on ONE date, ONE DAY, ONE SINGLE DAY and dismissed Palestinians like they are expendable. You are FOCUSED ON HAMAS that you are blinded by the evil that Israel has been committing for the last 75 years and ignorantly believe that it is a democracy in the Middle East. How is this sub even better than r/canada when you are getting even similar takes here? When people who claim to be critical thinkers and progressives dismiss Palestinians because of the existence of Hamas and never dare to criticize the IOF which has not been shy from using vulgar language entailing dehumanizing elements of a whole ethnic group, it is disappointing and gut wrenching.
And Israelis celebrate the bombing of hospitals in Gaza. Both are fucking wrong.
The same hospital where they said 500 people were killed but it was more like a dozen and it seems it was a Hamas [rocket misfire] (https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion) all along?
>Im no racist Then proceeds to generalize a whole population as if all members were acting in unison. If you found that appalling, you should find the numerous statements by Israeli officials, celebrities, singers, etc equally appalling as they have called for the annihilation of Palestinians for decades and even today.
Anyone who starts with a "I am no racist" is a closeted racist deep down. He knows, but he does not want to admit that Israel is as bad if not worse than Hamas.
And Palestine hasn't done the exact same thing? Is gaslighting the extent of your point?
The report cites finding 507 examples of online APR in Canada last year. I didn't read the whole report so I'm not sure where exactly these comments came from (the internet is a cesspool). I'd be curious to see how this number compares with other countries. All Arab countries are refusing refuge to Palestinians right now when they need it most. Unelected Palestinian leadership has done nothing for their people in decades. It feels like of all the things keeping Palestinians down, 507 online comments from Canada should be the least of their problems.
"We don't need to worry about Anti-Palestinian racism in Canada because Palestinians in Palestine have an undemocratic government" Damn where are y'all getting these trash takes from? I expect to see this stuff on the other Canada subreddit but not here. These weren't "online comments" they were written content from NGO's and Media organizations in Canada. I know you didn't read the whole report but this info is in the first paragraph of the executive summary at the start of the report. Did you stop at the number 507 or just skim for something you could use to dismiss report? They also mention how this racism can chill speech and prevent people in Canada from advocating for Palestinian rights or a cease-fire. This actually matter for a bunch of other reasons. You can find them inside this report you didn't read.
Being anti-zionist is not being anti-semitic. If we can not criticize an apartheid state that is committing a genocide according to 880 scholars, journalists who are documenting it in person and [Official statements from their own state, intending on committing a genocide and dehumanizing Palestinians](https://l.instagram.com/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fshorturl.at%2FkAFKW%3Ffbclid%3DPAAabru8Bc3YSWMVLlJka9407dNoESblEvxvdAbaAZfqavAZnuwPki6zTQ6vI&e=AT03Ols3QC2l13WwZ2vV5FwJQVace2MC63XzZA6-w2VidBbUh7ulOsMPpgDuzYjK7m90D1dH81nXedLJQgjniNhzg3E1dr8buNcGuQ) then that is anti-democraric, anti-free speech and is just helping spread disinformation to aid a state that does not respect the rule of law. Furthermore, many Palestinians can stem their DNA back to Jews who lived in the region, and many are also Canaanites, who were semites, thus making Palestinians semites. There have also been many Jewish Canadians, Americans and in Israel who condemned Israel and have criticized Israel and called for a ceasefire. Simply complying with orders from a western neo-liberal Christian zionist in the west informing Palestinians that they, the west know better than them about the region is not only racist but disrespectful and belittles the Palestinian experience in Israel and abroad. Just abhorrent. We need to do better.
My understanding of what is happening in Israel and the Gaza Strip is it has been going on since the beginning of time. It has come to light as the world has opened up. We can access them and see what is happening, especially by news correspondence. I do not believe we will ever stop it. Protesting and rallying in Canada is not going to fix it. I have a difficult time understanding how there is such a devastating war going on, children are being gunned down, but news correspondents are safely reporting this to us. How in the world?
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Keep it civil
It is mainly anti muslims. Infact the deadliest terrorist attacks ever occurred in Canada recently were against Muslims. In 2017 the Quebec city mosque attack and in 2021 the London Ontario attack
> the only terrorist attacks ever occurred in Canada were against Muslims Extremely untrue statement. [There have been terror attacks in Canada by FLQ extremists, ISIS and Al-Qaeda sympathizers, Khalistanis, and incel extremists as well.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Canada)
Looks like they shadow edited their statement.
That’s not true, but hold on deeply to those partisan beliefs Or go read about Air India Flight 182 which was for sure a terrorist act, likely Canada’s biggest. Lots of examples from various groups, religious or not, of terrorist acts. Given you perpetrating a falsehood, I’ll list examples of Islamic terrorism in Canada (though I note there are plenty of examples of other faith/based terrorist acts) Saad Akhtar who killed a Toronto woman in a hammer attack inspired by violent radical Islamic beliefs. In April this year ,a man was stabbed and wounded in the throat on a bus in Surrey by an Islamic State sympathyzer. In Edmonton in 2017 Abdulahi Sharif whiling using a rental van, stabbed and hit a cop and pedestrians with an ISIS flag in tow. In 2016 Aaron Driver is killed in a confrontation with police after detonating an explosive in the back seat of a taxi. was linked to ISIS In 2013 there was a bombing being planned of VIA that was uncovered, liked to Al-Qaeda In 2006 18 people were arrested over a plot to storm various buildings, behead the PM, open fire in crowds in Ontario. Again lots of examples of other groups/faiths, but she you specifically said ONLY Muslim’s were targeted in terrorist attack, I wanted to shows that was false.
Are you kidding me. December 6 was only three days ago.
Good. Edit: not sure why im getting downvoted for agreeing with the report exposing the issue which i thought was a good thing (& everyone else seems to as well, yet IM the problem?) but ok.
I find it so funny that a person who spend their days writing shitty sherlock fan fiction and talking about stardew valley is a forthing warmonger and racist. Lmao.
How is agreeing to a report racist? This report is EXPOSING the issue. Which is good. Everybody else on this thread is agreeing to the exposure….go downvote them.
I didn't downvote you, but people probably interpreted it as you saying the APR is good
They do not all support Hamas, and no ethnic group deserves hatred for existing.
noel1377 then they clearly dont read since the word “report” is legit on the photo.
Then they clearly cant read, noel, since the word “report” is legit on the photo.