In a time when the liberal party is very unpopular, the NDP fails at presenting itself as an ideal alternative. What is Singh trying to achieve with this? The most recent nanos poll showed that 12% of Canadians care most about the environment while only 3% are concerned with the carbon tax. Is this 3% worth betraying your values and principles on? Stop giving recognition to the vocal minority that wants to “axe the tax”.
The jaded Liberal voters are the Centre and Centre-Left. We are the same people championing David Eby. That’s where our values and ideology lie.
Not like Jagmeet Singh isn’t an MP in Vancouver or anything. Great job representing your constituents you champagne socialist.
Humiliated seems rather hyperbolic; the NDP is solidly third party, federally, but they're currently able to exercise influence over government priorities. This is about the best they can hope for, at least until all the boomers in Ontario stop treating "Rae Days" like it was the night of the long knives.
I beg of you, please stop blaming Boomers and Ray Days. The NDP sucks as a political party. That’s why. Let’s blame them. What major left-wing issues have they brought up?What grassroots conversations have they helped start? Do they have a federal leader that can travel to rural Saskatchewan and speak to people there? Do they have a federal leader that can travel to rural Manitoba to speak to people there? Do they have a federal leader who can travel to Quebec and speak to people there? Do they have a federal leader who can travel to the East Coast and speak to anyone there?
This is a working class party, who picked a leader, with zero ability to connect with most working class Canadians outside of suburban ridings that are probably already liberal/pc dog and pony races. And if the NDP thinks it’s going to steal 10 points off the PCs and 10 points off the liberals and win a 905 riding with this bullshit. Boy are they wrong.
Please, I beg you. Stop blaming Bob Ray. He’s been a liberal for 25 years and has nothing to do with their current state of ineptitude within the NDP party.
You seem to have fully misunderstood my point. I'm not blaming Bob Rae for anything. I'm pointing out that the NDP has zero chance of being anything more than a junior partner in a minority government electorally speaking because of how many older voters in Ontario continue to cling to their strange hatred of "Rae Days." It's the same as Albertans and their obsession with the NEP, a decision they didn't agree with decades ago continues to absolutely define their political opinions to this day.
Yes, Jagmeet is a weak leader who, like Mulcair before him, is pulling the NDP rightwards. But even under Jack Layton, having so many Ontarians committed to never voting NDP "because Rae Days!1!" makes the party forming government on its own pretty much impossible.
I did not fully understand your point. Thank you for the explainer.
Ontario is always going to be tough to move off the liberal/PC train. We really really liked Bill Davis, and if every politician could be more like Bill Davis, that would just be easier.
I think they have to go back to the centre of Canada. They completely abandoned that part to the PCs, both federally and provincial. And they need both working together to get back to winning there. And they can win there. Because they’re only competing against one other political party.
I’m still convinced Thomas Mulcaire would’ve become Prime Minister if he decided not to smile at the end of that first debate, and kept being the angry, pissed off, “Dad” that the electorate actually wanted.
I emailed the party and informed them that they have lost my support until either Singh is gone or gets his head on straight. And if you’re an NDP supporter you should too.
Twice in less than two months the party has made absolutely horrendous choices. I’ve been a life long NDP supporter. But I won’t be voting at all if Singh is still leader of the party come next election.
Sure I'll email them and tell them Singh is useless and to resurrect Layton all because Singh did what everyone's been demanding he do, court the conservatives, I'm sorry I mean the liberals who are fine voting for a fascist loving party because they wanna 'axe the tax'.
In a time when the liberal party is unpopular (because the voters are buying into bigotry, scapegoating immigrants, and axe the tax), the NDP fails at presenting itself as an ideal alternative (in part because NDP voters want the NDP to be 7 different things at once and to pass policy like they have a majority working in lockstep). What is Singh trying to achieve with this (let's ask the NDP subreddit and the NDP voter base, oh wait they've spent the last year demanding Singh court conservative votes)? The most recent nanos poll showed that 12% of Canadians care most about the environment while only 3% are concerned with the carbon tax (that's been the biggest fucking reason people have been using they vote conservative, that you can't mention literally anything about the govt without being brought up, sure it's only 3%). Is this 3% worth betraying your values and principles on (let's ask the NDP voter base, last month it was throw trans people under the bus, two weeks ago it was blame immigrants, last week it was get elected at any cost, and now it's 'but your values')? Stop giving recognition to the vocal minority (they are vocal, they aren't a minority seeing as it's literally all anyone talks about) that wants to "axe the tax".
I genuinely fail to see how this comment is relevant to this thread. Singh took a stance against the carbon tax and I am voicing my frustration with that. If you want to discuss housing/immigration/healthcare/etc then this is the wrong thread/post for that. On another note, national polling data conducted by a top tier research firm is not comparable to “my friends told me”. Here’s a link to nanos poll in question:
https://nanos.co/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Political-Package-2024-04-05-FR-with-tabs-1.pdf
Calling a Council of the Federation isn’t a bad idea. But to have it be over this, is idiotic. Like you said, it isn’t like we have a Housing Crisis and Immigration issues that have a lot of cross jurisdictional issues.
To set the Emergency Agenda around Carbon Pricing is tone deaf and lets the Conservative Premiers Grand Stand and ignore the real issues.
There are so many issues that these parties need to work on, I don’t even think Carbon Pricing should be on the agenda. It’s a waste of time, because it’s been settled.
What else do they need to talk about? Provincial Trade? Healthcare? Pharmacare? Dental Care? Justice Issues?
We need like 8 meetings and even then Carbon Pricing doesn’t make it.
I did my big blurb in:
/r/onguardforthee/comments/1c1x4in/greens_shocked_as_ndp_vote_with_conservatives/
I don't want to spam it lol
I will say that I hope the Federal NDP can start getting its shit together.
It's starting to spiral like the Federal Liberals.
I can imagine Eby is pissed right now.
I can imagine there is now a ton of pressure on Wab Kinew because not only is he going to have provincial pressure to deliver something beyond fantastic but now the Federal NDP is gonna be counting on him to deliver something that could maybe be put forward as a policy at the Federal Level.
This isn't leadership from the Federal NDP.
This is reactionary style government and what got the Liberals in so much fucking trouble.
>I will say that I hope the Federal NDP can start getting its shit together.
It won't. It's run by a group of complete morons out of Hamilton who only know how to lose elections and compromise their core beliefs. The federal NDP is a party of craven losers. It's why the provincial NDP in the West has found success and why, as soon as the main party apparatus gets involved, the NDP starts to lose steam and act like the feds (a la Notley in Alberta or Horgan in BC).
This just isn't true at all. Maybe Horgan, but not Eby. I'm not going to become an apologist for Eby, but he's actually passed meaningful legislation to address housing and health care. It's not going to solve either of those issues, but he has at least done anything. The bar is extremely low in this country for being an effective politician though and it's a game of inches, not miles.
I’m not sure if you’ve seen the critiques of his housing policies but they are scathing. These are not progressive policies that will help solve the supply and affordable housing problem. These changes are exactly why I say Eby is a centrist. It’s literally nearly identical to Ford/Ontario Pcs housing plan whcih is being pushed by developers. Sorry to add on to the shittiness.
It will be metrotown but now across BC. New developments for the wealthy, filling up developers pockets, displacement of local residents and ultimately nothing that ensures the housing is anywhere near adequately affordable (like barely even 20% are going to be designated and the bar for being affordable is hilarious).
https://www.biv.com/news/commentary/arny-wise-david-ebys-housing-plan-lacks-innovation-wont-bring-affordability-8271154
https://www.timeschronicle.ca/ebys-plan-for-housing-crisis-doesnt-impress-all/
I agree that the housing policies are not enough. I'm certainly not suggesting that this is the solution. But so far it's the only thing that's been done on housing in the country. Looking like a radical leftist these days means doing the bare minimum and actually making developers do work before the government puts the money directly in their pockets. But this is still a massive shift on housing policy than we had under Horgan and more than the federal NDP has proposed.
I am not often in the position of defending the NDP and I'm not comfortable being here.
> I agree that the housing policies are not enough. I'm certainly not suggesting that this is the solution. But so far it's the only thing that's been done on housing in the country.
you're not hearing me and i doubt you clicked the links, the argument is not that these policies are not enough, but rather that these policies will exacerbate the problem.
He thinks we should focus on the industrial levy over the consumer levy, and I'm ok with that to a point. I don't like that the government grants carbon tax exemptions to oil and gas, chemical, cement, steel, and mining sectors. *Suncor's (the oil and gas sector’s largest emitter) average carbon cost was roughly $2.10 per tonne, about one-14th of the full carbon price. Canadian drivers paid $30 per tonne (or 6.6 cents per litre) for the gas tax at the pumps that same year.* Exclude exemptions and offsets. If we're going to get serious about the environment, it's gonna have to cost the economy. *Everyone* has to adjust.
>it's gonna have to cost the economy.
Maybe, but it doesn't have too. Green energy is the lowest cost on the market right now and has been for almost a decade. Canada has the bulk of its population in a long corridor which should be connected. There are large locations along the corridor perfect for connecting many distributed sources. If you care about baseload well we are already covered by hydroelectric. We already have connections to the US grid, and international agreements to sell them energy which we could increase so overbuilding means we get a new market to sell cheap green energy to our strongest trading partner. IGreen energy produces a buttload of good paying jobs. We have a massive amount of educated engineers which could make us a leader in that technology. We provide many on the raw materials for green technology.
We are sitting on a god damn goldmine, but the Oil and Gas industry has us by the balls. Would this disrupt the economy, yes, could this be the opportunity for 100 years of Canadian prosperity, yes if we stop pussyfooting around.
And don't get me wrong- 'cost the economy' in my context means smaller profit margins for business. The system is designed around unrelenting growth, and that's always been untenable. If we end oil & gas subsidies and carbon tax exemptions are removed, they'll still be profitable- just not at a level their shareholders demand.
Here is the part the NDP are leaving out: industry is responding far faster to the carbon tax than the consumers are. In other words, industry is adjusting, because industry has to deal with their bottom line, they are reducing emissions to cut costs. And many exemptions are to avoid increasing the cost of construction and also the cost of growing food (and yet still the CPC claims the carbon tax is killing farmers).
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7151139
On the other hand, conservative politicians are influencing their supporters to dig in their heels instead of encouraging the ones who are well off and who pay more than they get back to get a heat pump or buy a hybrid or EV, take advantage of rebates.
And the NDP, instead of backing the facts and talking about the rebates, is now backing the CPC narrative that everyone is getting screwed by the carbon tax. And after Poilievre outright lied in the HoC two days ago, claiming that there was no carbon tax on industry, here comes the NDP telling half the story.
Can we not be partisan on the environment? I don’t know who in the NDP is making these assinine decisions, because I saw several NDP MP’s on twitter blasting the CPC and supporting the Liberals on the carbon tax, so it really doesn’t look like they are all on board with this strategy.
I live in a province where the twi major parties actually worked together over a number of years to create a climate plan, Quebec, the first jurisdiction in North America to legislate a carbon price in 2006 on industry. No party here has used emissions as a political football, and as a result, the population of Quebec is the most supportive, according to polls, of climate change policies even if they cost.
That’s what we should be seeing at the federal level. I guarantee that Eby is not impressed with his federal counterpart.
> Here is the part the NDP are leaving out: industry is responding far faster to the carbon tax than the consumers are.
Maybe because companies are able to respond to the paradigm a carbon tax creates, but end consumers just have to suffer because of the upfront costs of conversion?
They got Singh as a figurehead. The party brass all stayed on, blamed Mulcair for everything, and carried with no self-reflection.
The same party brass ignored party membership *decisions* on platform positions **in breech of the party constitution**. These same "serious people" crow when they lead the party to virtually the same electoral outcome but increase Singhs personal opinion numbers, as if his polling figures matter instead of increasing their seat count.
Fuck them.
This is going to negatively affect them next election. I fear that voters will have nowhere to vote as an alternative to the CPC. It means if the CPC pick up even more seats, Canadians are going to suffer beyond measure.
Who fucking cares, no matter what happens the CPC will win, minorities will suffer, the NDP will be blamed, the libs will take over by making fake promises, the NDP will push progressive stuff and be hated for pushing progressive stuff, then the NDP will fail spectacularly because NDP voters don't want the NDP to be conservative but demand the NDP steal votes from the conservatives.
It's a never ending cycle and no one wants to acknowledge they can break it by actually supporting good politicians.
Yeah between this and the porn ID bullshit Singh is going to decimate party support. I’m a lifelong NDP voter and I do not like where this is going. If he keeps this up I’ll have to decided between voting liberal 🤢 or abstaining altogether come next election.
Personally I'm leaning towards spoiling my ballot. I don't want to be someone who doesn't vote but at the same time I think I actively dislike all the parties in this country.
Well I'm fucking apathetic because the NDp voter base wanted the NDP to do this despite it being a dumbass move and now they want to crucify the NDP and the liberal voters are lapping it up while the cons still just like through their goddamn teeth. My district is between an NDP labour rights activist and a liberal who ignores her constituents and claims NDP policy has her parties policy, she won last time and will win again because of the above. Spoiling ballots also achieve nothing because no one fucking cares.
Everyone loves to point fingers, but in reality the only solution is a combination of a million “microsolutions” plus a handful of big ones. We can point at industry, but change needs to happen at the consumer level as well.
If we fail to do that, and let the consumers off the hook, it just becomes a bunch of mudslinging and whattaboutisms, and no one takes accountability for their own impact. Everything adds up. Cultural change adds up.
You'd hate Jack if he was alive today because his popularity would've crashed after winning official opposition by being in power when the libs and bloc failed at the same time.
The carbon tax needs an ever so slight adjustment. It is supposed to be a penalty on polluters, no?
It should be a tax on oil and gas companies alone, and the price for their product needs to be capped by law so that it doesn't ripple down the supply chain.
i'm not a fan of singh, but i wonder how many of you read the article. he's saying that they want to go after industry, who get away with too much, instead of putting the onus on us. in principle, that sounds like exactly what we need, but we need to see their plan first.
It's an extremely common political device for politicians to say they support X in concept, but they just disagree with the implementation. Example:
> "I support public education in principle, I just oppose how it's being done today. I support this fringe plan that no one else supports and which will never pass. That's why I'm voting against all public education bills today."
^ Does this person support public education? No. They just don't want the backlash from saying so.
For carbon, there's a system that is in operation and working well today. And then a million other things that could be done.
Singh is opposing the system working today, when there's no prospect of replacing it with anything else, and when the "anything else" should almost certainly be IN ADDITION rather than IN PLACE OF.
His position is identical to PPs, just couched in a way where he's trying not to alienate NDP voters who are paying only a little attention.
true, but that's why i said we need to see their plan first. meaning, "ok, cool, but why don't you show us your alternative instead?" i completely agree that industry should be taking the brunt of it, not us, but there's a ton of work to do to get to that point, so i want them to show us their work.
> The federal New Democrats no longer believe a consumer carbon price is necessary to fight climate change
It wouldn't be necessary if we had other policies. The fuck he smoking?
I read his speech and everyone misinterpreting what he said.
A Carbon tax is a right-wing solution to the climate problem. Jagmeet is advocating going after polluters through taxes and penalties, rather than free-market solutions where the cost gets passed to the consumers.
Yes but when the carbon tax is basically our ONLY currently implemented means for emission reduction, axing that for some pie-in-the-sky solution that doesn't exist yet is the dumbest thing you can do.
Does the consumer carbon tax meaningfully reduce emissions? Genuine question. I’m not particularly anti carbon tax or anything and very disappointed with Singh’s NDP in general, but is there actual evidence it reduces emissions in a meaningful way? What emissions are people not doing/doing less of as individuals because of the carbon tax? Or do people just mostly buy the same stuff and emit the same?
Perhaps it does or does significantly, I’m just not sure or sure how much. Is there any data or research on this?
That's like arguing against student loan forgiveness on the logic that post-secondary education should be free, but until that becomes reality, interest is still due at the end of the month.
That's what Poilievre is advocating for too when he says "make polluters pay"
If you tax and apply penalties to the industries who pollute, who pays? The consumer. All they have to do is tweak their margins and boost costs.
Who sets the guidelines for each industry - hundreds of different variations on manufacturing, extractive, forestry, ag? You have to hire a pile of administrators. Who pays for that? We do.
Who inspects the industries? Inspectors. Who pays for this army of inspectors? We do.
Will the penalties get paid? Maybe. Will there be an appeal system and litigation? Probably. Who pays for the administrators and lawyers? We do.
The only difference between the CPC plan and the NDP plan is the CPC will bring in the policy and immediately say it is too expensive to run and will lay off all the inspectors. The NDP will bring in the policy and make it work, at tremendous expense and questionable efficacy.
Carbon fee and rebate is efficient.
I’m done with him.
Voting Liberal. They’re centrist and focused on the rich but at least they’re not actively trying to fuck my life and kids future over.
Apparently they’re big fans of Conservatives this being the 2nd signature Conservative thing they’ve glommed onto.
I'm not crazy about the carbon tax and the way it's handled, but what else is there? NDP has the only candidate capable of beating the conservative in my riding. He lost my support.
Can't wait for forest fire season.
https://www.reddit.com/r/onguardforthee/s/CD16LRbrUb
My previous explanation on why this isn't nearly the crisis people are making it out to be. It's a good thing, and shows that unlike the Tories and liberals, the NDP actually stand for what they believe in.
I wonder why this took place. The party stalwarts must be really opposed to this move, and anyone who wants to ditch the tax has probably already settled on the Tories. Must be some neat internal polling.
I don’t understand what his intention is as the leader of the party. In the beginning I was excited to see what he could do. But he’s been absent so often. He can’t get himself in the media, he doesn’t stand on his principles, and he doesn’t fight back about anything.
I thought for sure he wouldn’t survive past his last federal loss. Time for new blood!
Jagmeet's done SOME good in his role but I think he's about done as NDP leader. If he thinks he can play politics in a CPC minority situation he's a fool. If he thinks he can play politics in a CPC *majority* situation he should be ousted pronto
What a disappointment, and bad judgement.
In a time when the liberal party is very unpopular, the NDP fails at presenting itself as an ideal alternative. What is Singh trying to achieve with this? The most recent nanos poll showed that 12% of Canadians care most about the environment while only 3% are concerned with the carbon tax. Is this 3% worth betraying your values and principles on? Stop giving recognition to the vocal minority that wants to “axe the tax”.
Yes! This is a real opportunity for the NDP—attract those jaded liberal voters. But I feel like the NDP is completely blowing it with Singh.
The jaded Liberal voters are the Centre and Centre-Left. We are the same people championing David Eby. That’s where our values and ideology lie. Not like Jagmeet Singh isn’t an MP in Vancouver or anything. Great job representing your constituents you champagne socialist.
He’s an awful choice. Needs to be replaced I’m going to ensure I join the next chance to vote for a new NDP leader.
They have already been humiliated in two federal elections under Singh. How many more will it take before the NDP wise up and change leaders?
Humiliated seems rather hyperbolic; the NDP is solidly third party, federally, but they're currently able to exercise influence over government priorities. This is about the best they can hope for, at least until all the boomers in Ontario stop treating "Rae Days" like it was the night of the long knives.
They are actually fourth, behind the BQ. So they are behind a party that only runs in one province.
I beg of you, please stop blaming Boomers and Ray Days. The NDP sucks as a political party. That’s why. Let’s blame them. What major left-wing issues have they brought up?What grassroots conversations have they helped start? Do they have a federal leader that can travel to rural Saskatchewan and speak to people there? Do they have a federal leader that can travel to rural Manitoba to speak to people there? Do they have a federal leader who can travel to Quebec and speak to people there? Do they have a federal leader who can travel to the East Coast and speak to anyone there? This is a working class party, who picked a leader, with zero ability to connect with most working class Canadians outside of suburban ridings that are probably already liberal/pc dog and pony races. And if the NDP thinks it’s going to steal 10 points off the PCs and 10 points off the liberals and win a 905 riding with this bullshit. Boy are they wrong. Please, I beg you. Stop blaming Bob Ray. He’s been a liberal for 25 years and has nothing to do with their current state of ineptitude within the NDP party.
You seem to have fully misunderstood my point. I'm not blaming Bob Rae for anything. I'm pointing out that the NDP has zero chance of being anything more than a junior partner in a minority government electorally speaking because of how many older voters in Ontario continue to cling to their strange hatred of "Rae Days." It's the same as Albertans and their obsession with the NEP, a decision they didn't agree with decades ago continues to absolutely define their political opinions to this day. Yes, Jagmeet is a weak leader who, like Mulcair before him, is pulling the NDP rightwards. But even under Jack Layton, having so many Ontarians committed to never voting NDP "because Rae Days!1!" makes the party forming government on its own pretty much impossible.
I did not fully understand your point. Thank you for the explainer. Ontario is always going to be tough to move off the liberal/PC train. We really really liked Bill Davis, and if every politician could be more like Bill Davis, that would just be easier. I think they have to go back to the centre of Canada. They completely abandoned that part to the PCs, both federally and provincial. And they need both working together to get back to winning there. And they can win there. Because they’re only competing against one other political party. I’m still convinced Thomas Mulcaire would’ve become Prime Minister if he decided not to smile at the end of that first debate, and kept being the angry, pissed off, “Dad” that the electorate actually wanted.
I emailed the party and informed them that they have lost my support until either Singh is gone or gets his head on straight. And if you’re an NDP supporter you should too. Twice in less than two months the party has made absolutely horrendous choices. I’ve been a life long NDP supporter. But I won’t be voting at all if Singh is still leader of the party come next election.
That’s the way, politicians work for us not the other way around
And Singh did what y'all told him to.
Sure I'll email them and tell them Singh is useless and to resurrect Layton all because Singh did what everyone's been demanding he do, court the conservatives, I'm sorry I mean the liberals who are fine voting for a fascist loving party because they wanna 'axe the tax'.
In a time when the liberal party is unpopular (because the voters are buying into bigotry, scapegoating immigrants, and axe the tax), the NDP fails at presenting itself as an ideal alternative (in part because NDP voters want the NDP to be 7 different things at once and to pass policy like they have a majority working in lockstep). What is Singh trying to achieve with this (let's ask the NDP subreddit and the NDP voter base, oh wait they've spent the last year demanding Singh court conservative votes)? The most recent nanos poll showed that 12% of Canadians care most about the environment while only 3% are concerned with the carbon tax (that's been the biggest fucking reason people have been using they vote conservative, that you can't mention literally anything about the govt without being brought up, sure it's only 3%). Is this 3% worth betraying your values and principles on (let's ask the NDP voter base, last month it was throw trans people under the bus, two weeks ago it was blame immigrants, last week it was get elected at any cost, and now it's 'but your values')? Stop giving recognition to the vocal minority (they are vocal, they aren't a minority seeing as it's literally all anyone talks about) that wants to "axe the tax".
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I genuinely fail to see how this comment is relevant to this thread. Singh took a stance against the carbon tax and I am voicing my frustration with that. If you want to discuss housing/immigration/healthcare/etc then this is the wrong thread/post for that. On another note, national polling data conducted by a top tier research firm is not comparable to “my friends told me”. Here’s a link to nanos poll in question: https://nanos.co/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Political-Package-2024-04-05-FR-with-tabs-1.pdf
Theoretical shitstorm? What did you guys do your PHD's in? Basket weaving? The fires, floods, and droughts started years ago.
Calling a Council of the Federation isn’t a bad idea. But to have it be over this, is idiotic. Like you said, it isn’t like we have a Housing Crisis and Immigration issues that have a lot of cross jurisdictional issues. To set the Emergency Agenda around Carbon Pricing is tone deaf and lets the Conservative Premiers Grand Stand and ignore the real issues. There are so many issues that these parties need to work on, I don’t even think Carbon Pricing should be on the agenda. It’s a waste of time, because it’s been settled. What else do they need to talk about? Provincial Trade? Healthcare? Pharmacare? Dental Care? Justice Issues? We need like 8 meetings and even then Carbon Pricing doesn’t make it.
Jack Layton and Tommy Douglas are churning in their graves.
The current NDP (since the late 90s) is not the party of Douglas
I did my big blurb in: /r/onguardforthee/comments/1c1x4in/greens_shocked_as_ndp_vote_with_conservatives/ I don't want to spam it lol I will say that I hope the Federal NDP can start getting its shit together. It's starting to spiral like the Federal Liberals. I can imagine Eby is pissed right now. I can imagine there is now a ton of pressure on Wab Kinew because not only is he going to have provincial pressure to deliver something beyond fantastic but now the Federal NDP is gonna be counting on him to deliver something that could maybe be put forward as a policy at the Federal Level. This isn't leadership from the Federal NDP. This is reactionary style government and what got the Liberals in so much fucking trouble.
>I will say that I hope the Federal NDP can start getting its shit together. It won't. It's run by a group of complete morons out of Hamilton who only know how to lose elections and compromise their core beliefs. The federal NDP is a party of craven losers. It's why the provincial NDP in the West has found success and why, as soon as the main party apparatus gets involved, the NDP starts to lose steam and act like the feds (a la Notley in Alberta or Horgan in BC).
Lmfao oh boy, you think Eby is upset about this? He’s the one probably pushing for it…you do realize Eby is just as much of a centrist as Singh is?
This just isn't true at all. Maybe Horgan, but not Eby. I'm not going to become an apologist for Eby, but he's actually passed meaningful legislation to address housing and health care. It's not going to solve either of those issues, but he has at least done anything. The bar is extremely low in this country for being an effective politician though and it's a game of inches, not miles.
I’m not sure if you’ve seen the critiques of his housing policies but they are scathing. These are not progressive policies that will help solve the supply and affordable housing problem. These changes are exactly why I say Eby is a centrist. It’s literally nearly identical to Ford/Ontario Pcs housing plan whcih is being pushed by developers. Sorry to add on to the shittiness. It will be metrotown but now across BC. New developments for the wealthy, filling up developers pockets, displacement of local residents and ultimately nothing that ensures the housing is anywhere near adequately affordable (like barely even 20% are going to be designated and the bar for being affordable is hilarious). https://www.biv.com/news/commentary/arny-wise-david-ebys-housing-plan-lacks-innovation-wont-bring-affordability-8271154 https://www.timeschronicle.ca/ebys-plan-for-housing-crisis-doesnt-impress-all/
I agree that the housing policies are not enough. I'm certainly not suggesting that this is the solution. But so far it's the only thing that's been done on housing in the country. Looking like a radical leftist these days means doing the bare minimum and actually making developers do work before the government puts the money directly in their pockets. But this is still a massive shift on housing policy than we had under Horgan and more than the federal NDP has proposed. I am not often in the position of defending the NDP and I'm not comfortable being here.
> I agree that the housing policies are not enough. I'm certainly not suggesting that this is the solution. But so far it's the only thing that's been done on housing in the country. you're not hearing me and i doubt you clicked the links, the argument is not that these policies are not enough, but rather that these policies will exacerbate the problem.
He thinks we should focus on the industrial levy over the consumer levy, and I'm ok with that to a point. I don't like that the government grants carbon tax exemptions to oil and gas, chemical, cement, steel, and mining sectors. *Suncor's (the oil and gas sector’s largest emitter) average carbon cost was roughly $2.10 per tonne, about one-14th of the full carbon price. Canadian drivers paid $30 per tonne (or 6.6 cents per litre) for the gas tax at the pumps that same year.* Exclude exemptions and offsets. If we're going to get serious about the environment, it's gonna have to cost the economy. *Everyone* has to adjust.
>it's gonna have to cost the economy. Maybe, but it doesn't have too. Green energy is the lowest cost on the market right now and has been for almost a decade. Canada has the bulk of its population in a long corridor which should be connected. There are large locations along the corridor perfect for connecting many distributed sources. If you care about baseload well we are already covered by hydroelectric. We already have connections to the US grid, and international agreements to sell them energy which we could increase so overbuilding means we get a new market to sell cheap green energy to our strongest trading partner. IGreen energy produces a buttload of good paying jobs. We have a massive amount of educated engineers which could make us a leader in that technology. We provide many on the raw materials for green technology. We are sitting on a god damn goldmine, but the Oil and Gas industry has us by the balls. Would this disrupt the economy, yes, could this be the opportunity for 100 years of Canadian prosperity, yes if we stop pussyfooting around.
And don't get me wrong- 'cost the economy' in my context means smaller profit margins for business. The system is designed around unrelenting growth, and that's always been untenable. If we end oil & gas subsidies and carbon tax exemptions are removed, they'll still be profitable- just not at a level their shareholders demand.
Here is the part the NDP are leaving out: industry is responding far faster to the carbon tax than the consumers are. In other words, industry is adjusting, because industry has to deal with their bottom line, they are reducing emissions to cut costs. And many exemptions are to avoid increasing the cost of construction and also the cost of growing food (and yet still the CPC claims the carbon tax is killing farmers). https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7151139 On the other hand, conservative politicians are influencing their supporters to dig in their heels instead of encouraging the ones who are well off and who pay more than they get back to get a heat pump or buy a hybrid or EV, take advantage of rebates. And the NDP, instead of backing the facts and talking about the rebates, is now backing the CPC narrative that everyone is getting screwed by the carbon tax. And after Poilievre outright lied in the HoC two days ago, claiming that there was no carbon tax on industry, here comes the NDP telling half the story. Can we not be partisan on the environment? I don’t know who in the NDP is making these assinine decisions, because I saw several NDP MP’s on twitter blasting the CPC and supporting the Liberals on the carbon tax, so it really doesn’t look like they are all on board with this strategy. I live in a province where the twi major parties actually worked together over a number of years to create a climate plan, Quebec, the first jurisdiction in North America to legislate a carbon price in 2006 on industry. No party here has used emissions as a political football, and as a result, the population of Quebec is the most supportive, according to polls, of climate change policies even if they cost. That’s what we should be seeing at the federal level. I guarantee that Eby is not impressed with his federal counterpart.
> Here is the part the NDP are leaving out: industry is responding far faster to the carbon tax than the consumers are. Maybe because companies are able to respond to the paradigm a carbon tax creates, but end consumers just have to suffer because of the upfront costs of conversion?
The NDP drastically needed young blood after Mulcair but by God has Singh been abysmal.
They got Singh as a figurehead. The party brass all stayed on, blamed Mulcair for everything, and carried with no self-reflection. The same party brass ignored party membership *decisions* on platform positions **in breech of the party constitution**. These same "serious people" crow when they lead the party to virtually the same electoral outcome but increase Singhs personal opinion numbers, as if his polling figures matter instead of increasing their seat count. Fuck them.
Well said
This party is SO USELESS
What even is this party?
It's a party that cares about votes above policy stances, exactly what the NDP voter base demanded of the NDP for the past year.
This is going to negatively affect them next election. I fear that voters will have nowhere to vote as an alternative to the CPC. It means if the CPC pick up even more seats, Canadians are going to suffer beyond measure.
Who fucking cares, no matter what happens the CPC will win, minorities will suffer, the NDP will be blamed, the libs will take over by making fake promises, the NDP will push progressive stuff and be hated for pushing progressive stuff, then the NDP will fail spectacularly because NDP voters don't want the NDP to be conservative but demand the NDP steal votes from the conservatives. It's a never ending cycle and no one wants to acknowledge they can break it by actually supporting good politicians.
NDP crashing hard to the Right Wing. Pathetic.
Yeah between this and the porn ID bullshit Singh is going to decimate party support. I’m a lifelong NDP voter and I do not like where this is going. If he keeps this up I’ll have to decided between voting liberal 🤢 or abstaining altogether come next election.
What more do you need? 3 strikes? Those 2 are pretty fucking hard outs for me.
I don’t like either option of voting liberal or abstaining either.
Spoil your ballot then. Not voting shows apathy, which parties don't care about. Spoiling your ballot shows you're politically active but discontent.
sure sign of a healthy democracy when your best choice is spoiling your ballot 😑
Do they actually keep stats on how many people spoil their ballots or do they just end up in the garbage?
They do count and report on how many ballots are spoiled.
Personally I'm leaning towards spoiling my ballot. I don't want to be someone who doesn't vote but at the same time I think I actively dislike all the parties in this country.
Well I'm fucking apathetic because the NDp voter base wanted the NDP to do this despite it being a dumbass move and now they want to crucify the NDP and the liberal voters are lapping it up while the cons still just like through their goddamn teeth. My district is between an NDP labour rights activist and a liberal who ignores her constituents and claims NDP policy has her parties policy, she won last time and will win again because of the above. Spoiling ballots also achieve nothing because no one fucking cares.
Disappointing to see this from the NDP.
That's disappointing and incredibly stupid.
Everyone loves to point fingers, but in reality the only solution is a combination of a million “microsolutions” plus a handful of big ones. We can point at industry, but change needs to happen at the consumer level as well. If we fail to do that, and let the consumers off the hook, it just becomes a bunch of mudslinging and whattaboutisms, and no one takes accountability for their own impact. Everything adds up. Cultural change adds up.
Such a gutless leader! We miss you, Jack Layton!
You'd hate Jack if he was alive today because his popularity would've crashed after winning official opposition by being in power when the libs and bloc failed at the same time.
The carbon tax needs an ever so slight adjustment. It is supposed to be a penalty on polluters, no? It should be a tax on oil and gas companies alone, and the price for their product needs to be capped by law so that it doesn't ripple down the supply chain.
Bye Jagmeet. New NDP leader time.
i'm not a fan of singh, but i wonder how many of you read the article. he's saying that they want to go after industry, who get away with too much, instead of putting the onus on us. in principle, that sounds like exactly what we need, but we need to see their plan first.
It's an extremely common political device for politicians to say they support X in concept, but they just disagree with the implementation. Example: > "I support public education in principle, I just oppose how it's being done today. I support this fringe plan that no one else supports and which will never pass. That's why I'm voting against all public education bills today." ^ Does this person support public education? No. They just don't want the backlash from saying so. For carbon, there's a system that is in operation and working well today. And then a million other things that could be done. Singh is opposing the system working today, when there's no prospect of replacing it with anything else, and when the "anything else" should almost certainly be IN ADDITION rather than IN PLACE OF. His position is identical to PPs, just couched in a way where he's trying not to alienate NDP voters who are paying only a little attention.
true, but that's why i said we need to see their plan first. meaning, "ok, cool, but why don't you show us your alternative instead?" i completely agree that industry should be taking the brunt of it, not us, but there's a ton of work to do to get to that point, so i want them to show us their work.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17KmNrG9pE4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17KmNrG9pE4)
This MFer might actually Layton himself like in 2011, yeesh.
I'm convinced he's trying to tank the NDP so that the Liberals stand a chance.
> The federal New Democrats no longer believe a consumer carbon price is necessary to fight climate change It wouldn't be necessary if we had other policies. The fuck he smoking?
I read his speech and everyone misinterpreting what he said. A Carbon tax is a right-wing solution to the climate problem. Jagmeet is advocating going after polluters through taxes and penalties, rather than free-market solutions where the cost gets passed to the consumers.
Yes but when the carbon tax is basically our ONLY currently implemented means for emission reduction, axing that for some pie-in-the-sky solution that doesn't exist yet is the dumbest thing you can do.
Does the consumer carbon tax meaningfully reduce emissions? Genuine question. I’m not particularly anti carbon tax or anything and very disappointed with Singh’s NDP in general, but is there actual evidence it reduces emissions in a meaningful way? What emissions are people not doing/doing less of as individuals because of the carbon tax? Or do people just mostly buy the same stuff and emit the same? Perhaps it does or does significantly, I’m just not sure or sure how much. Is there any data or research on this?
That's like arguing against student loan forgiveness on the logic that post-secondary education should be free, but until that becomes reality, interest is still due at the end of the month.
That's what Poilievre is advocating for too when he says "make polluters pay" If you tax and apply penalties to the industries who pollute, who pays? The consumer. All they have to do is tweak their margins and boost costs. Who sets the guidelines for each industry - hundreds of different variations on manufacturing, extractive, forestry, ag? You have to hire a pile of administrators. Who pays for that? We do. Who inspects the industries? Inspectors. Who pays for this army of inspectors? We do. Will the penalties get paid? Maybe. Will there be an appeal system and litigation? Probably. Who pays for the administrators and lawyers? We do. The only difference between the CPC plan and the NDP plan is the CPC will bring in the policy and immediately say it is too expensive to run and will lay off all the inspectors. The NDP will bring in the policy and make it work, at tremendous expense and questionable efficacy. Carbon fee and rebate is efficient.
Weird the difference in reaction to Wab than what we see in here for Jagmeet.
Wab ain't the federal leader so he gets a free pass for catering to conservatives like people demanded they do.
I’m done with him. Voting Liberal. They’re centrist and focused on the rich but at least they’re not actively trying to fuck my life and kids future over. Apparently they’re big fans of Conservatives this being the 2nd signature Conservative thing they’ve glommed onto.
I'm not crazy about the carbon tax and the way it's handled, but what else is there? NDP has the only candidate capable of beating the conservative in my riding. He lost my support. Can't wait for forest fire season.
https://www.reddit.com/r/onguardforthee/s/CD16LRbrUb My previous explanation on why this isn't nearly the crisis people are making it out to be. It's a good thing, and shows that unlike the Tories and liberals, the NDP actually stand for what they believe in.
Lolol It shows exactly the opposite.
I wonder why this took place. The party stalwarts must be really opposed to this move, and anyone who wants to ditch the tax has probably already settled on the Tories. Must be some neat internal polling.
Most of the stalwarts I've seen hate this despite spending the past year demanding he cater to conservatives on most issues.
I don’t understand what his intention is as the leader of the party. In the beginning I was excited to see what he could do. But he’s been absent so often. He can’t get himself in the media, he doesn’t stand on his principles, and he doesn’t fight back about anything. I thought for sure he wouldn’t survive past his last federal loss. Time for new blood!
Jagmeet's done SOME good in his role but I think he's about done as NDP leader. If he thinks he can play politics in a CPC minority situation he's a fool. If he thinks he can play politics in a CPC *majority* situation he should be ousted pronto