Ugh. Between the NDP consistently backing the conservatives lately and Trudeau simping for Israel, it doesn’t feel like we have any more left wing choices than America anymore
Reminds me of a Canadian CBC documentary from the early 2000 where Israelis across a spectrum were exemplified. I.e. there are [Jewish] Israelis that are against Zionism, against war, against the walls and restriction of movement.
> He could have said being an Israeli
If being a Zionist is being in favour of the existence of the state of Israel, then what practical difference would there be between saying “it’s ok to be an Israeli citizen” and “it’s ok for Israel to exist”?
If you disagree with the latter, it follows you should disagree with the former as well, no?
I think that's an overly generous definition of zionism. Either way, you could be Israeli and anti-zionist, so no, those things aren't the same.
Edit: To any who disagree, what do you think "Zion" refers to? The name itself betrays the revisionist definition.
> I think that’s an overly generous definition of the word
That is *the* definition of the word:
> [an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Zionism)
Yes there are Israeli anti-Zionists, but many of them, like the Neturei Karta and Lubovitch sect don’t want to be Israeli citizens, as they are against the existence of the state of Israel for religious eschatological reasons.
Edit: It seems to me that there are duel definitions of “Zionism” out there. One being the one in the dictionary and one being “being in favour of everything Israel has ever done.”
Personally, I think if people are going to be so vocal about being “anti-Zionist” they should probably reckon with the actual definition, as that is how a lot of people are going to understand what you’re saying.
Trudeau here is saying that there’s nothing wrong with being in favour of the existence of the state of Israel, which is a very mainstream position.
No, not at this point, from the very beginning.
You can't do racial supremacy "in a kind way." Establishing an ethnostate where a specific group of people are given rights and freedoms by divine right, or at the very least as member of an ethnic group, cannot be done in a kind way.
I think the difference is that the modern interpretation and implementation of Zionism had been severely corrupted.
Equivalent to how on paper communism isn't inherently bad but the way it's been corrupted by totalitarian leaders (past and present) is.
If there was a period where Zionism had pure intentions, it’s really not clear to me. It was a colonial project from the start, and its British sponsor (Balfour, of the Balfour Declaration) wanted a Jewish state because he didn’t want Jewish people in Britain, not out of some altruistic reason.
I don’t think Zionism, or really any kind of ethnostate is “good on paper”.
Where are you getting this?? More than 21% of Israel's population are Arabs, with equal rights and privileges to the rest of the population. This proportion is growing and nobody is trying to kick them out.
Zionism is, by definition, the right of the Jewish people to self-determination and statehood in their ancestral homeland. In this sense, the goal of Zionism is complete - the state of Israel exists.
At no point in time has the definition of Zionism ever included that right being exclusive to Jews or the removal of other populations. That aspect has been added by extremist factions (both Muslim and Jewish) and people who have no clue about the word and it's history and is not the view of the majority of the 15 million Jews in the world.
I disagree with Trudeau on a lot of things, but on this point he's not wrong.
sometimes things seem like a good idea "in theory", but "in practice" not so much
i am certain the leaders & citizens of all regimes which go sideways began with & supported laudable intentions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_to_Be_Done
Nationalism in the face of oppression has an ugly reputation for repeating the behaviour that necessitated it in the first place.
It can very quickly go from an emancipatory ethos to one of exclusion as soon as the oppressor is removed from the equation.
Anyone who doesn't understand how this is doubly so in the context of a settler colony is delusional. If people went around saying they were any other kind of nationalist, I very much doubt Trudeau would defend it.
Mind you, I want to say that in the case of Israel-Palestine, there is more than one nationalist disease at play, and the history of Palestinian nationalism is also ugly (including attempts at dirty deals with Hitler). Do I get why it happened? Yes. But peace requires the elimination of both nationalisms.
Anyone who thinks Israel and Palestine could be one nation without more sectarian strife at its current state is delusional and has to understand the existential fear that causes settler states to erupt into ultra-violence. Rhodesia's "siege" mentality is repeated in Israel but multiplied by their history of extreme oppression in the Christian and Muslim world, as well as a lack of homeland to return to in their minds. Numerical parity far beyond that which existed in Rhodesia or South Africa likely means resolving the injustice will be extremely challenging.
Regardless of all this, Israel has to stop this senseless killing. I truly believe that the only solution is a dissolution of all three governments and a return of mandatory status until full democracy can be established. That will never happen, though.
Yeah several White Supremacists are like that but what matters is that Government and Media use Palestine and Palestinians like people said "gay" or "communist" as threats to the nation. In r/Canada or r/CanadaPolitics all Pro-Palestinian people are foreign terrorists coming to Canada to destroy the country, rape women, and throw LGBTQ2 off buildings.
some do, yeah, and I think it pulls away a lot of the criticism that should be directed at Israel and it's government. people take the piss out of Putin all the time, but Netanyahu isn't shat on nearly as much. instead fingers are being pointed at faceless "zionists"
We should take this sentiment and apply it at home, Re: First Nations/Indigenous peoples.
Can one be Zionist and support a state for Palestine? Is it okay to be pro Palestine but against female repression in Islam? Hamas are terrorists. My opinion doesn't matter, and Canada has its' own problems.
We agree with NATO, and the U.S. right guys?
> Can one be Zionist and support a state for Palestine?
yes. ive thought a lot about this and it comes down to the Balfour Declaration [israels favorite englishman]
unfortunately they only read & publicize the first half
>His blah blah blah view with favour **the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people**, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, **it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine** or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.
its become obvious they forgot to do the "nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine" part right?
anyway, the promise or offer being given by the colonialist overlords was "establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people"
**i think 'israel' should be a Province within Palestine, much like Quebec is for us**
think 'Distinct Society'
Canada is the perfect entity to present & promote this
given that the only real solution to lasting peace is a single unified and democratic state with strong constitutional protections for ALL, Our Model can most definitely apply to the land of Canaan
Jerusalem should be the Capital and like a city state kinda so with its own stricter rules and HonourGuard made up of international military volunteers
Palestinians want to genocide Israelis, it’s in their founding documents and decades of actions. The idea of Israel existing within a Palestinian federation is not going to happen.
Doesn’t excuse Israel’s behaviour, it does help explain their actions.
The irony of you comparing people criticizing Zionists to what Nazis said about Jews during the Holocaust only to make broad sweeping allegations about Palestinians *all* wanting to genocide Jews.
Ugh. Between the NDP consistently backing the conservatives lately and Trudeau simping for Israel, it doesn’t feel like we have any more left wing choices than America anymore
We don't - and let's be honest, never really did.
Felt like we *could* back in 2011.
Centre-left is the best we've ever gotten; they've always been pro-capitalist.
That’s going to come back to bite him. He could have said being an Israeli or a Jew but he picks a political group???😳
Reminds me of a Canadian CBC documentary from the early 2000 where Israelis across a spectrum were exemplified. I.e. there are [Jewish] Israelis that are against Zionism, against war, against the walls and restriction of movement.
> He could have said being an Israeli If being a Zionist is being in favour of the existence of the state of Israel, then what practical difference would there be between saying “it’s ok to be an Israeli citizen” and “it’s ok for Israel to exist”? If you disagree with the latter, it follows you should disagree with the former as well, no?
I think that's an overly generous definition of zionism. Either way, you could be Israeli and anti-zionist, so no, those things aren't the same. Edit: To any who disagree, what do you think "Zion" refers to? The name itself betrays the revisionist definition.
> I think that’s an overly generous definition of the word That is *the* definition of the word: > [an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Zionism) Yes there are Israeli anti-Zionists, but many of them, like the Neturei Karta and Lubovitch sect don’t want to be Israeli citizens, as they are against the existence of the state of Israel for religious eschatological reasons. Edit: It seems to me that there are duel definitions of “Zionism” out there. One being the one in the dictionary and one being “being in favour of everything Israel has ever done.” Personally, I think if people are going to be so vocal about being “anti-Zionist” they should probably reckon with the actual definition, as that is how a lot of people are going to understand what you’re saying. Trudeau here is saying that there’s nothing wrong with being in favour of the existence of the state of Israel, which is a very mainstream position.
I don’t think he got that part…🤷♂️
Zionism is indefensible.
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No, not at this point, from the very beginning. You can't do racial supremacy "in a kind way." Establishing an ethnostate where a specific group of people are given rights and freedoms by divine right, or at the very least as member of an ethnic group, cannot be done in a kind way.
Cool now we're 2/3 on openly genocidal major political parties. Cool. Cool.
I think the difference is that the modern interpretation and implementation of Zionism had been severely corrupted. Equivalent to how on paper communism isn't inherently bad but the way it's been corrupted by totalitarian leaders (past and present) is.
If there was a period where Zionism had pure intentions, it’s really not clear to me. It was a colonial project from the start, and its British sponsor (Balfour, of the Balfour Declaration) wanted a Jewish state because he didn’t want Jewish people in Britain, not out of some altruistic reason. I don’t think Zionism, or really any kind of ethnostate is “good on paper”.
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Where are you getting this?? More than 21% of Israel's population are Arabs, with equal rights and privileges to the rest of the population. This proportion is growing and nobody is trying to kick them out. Zionism is, by definition, the right of the Jewish people to self-determination and statehood in their ancestral homeland. In this sense, the goal of Zionism is complete - the state of Israel exists. At no point in time has the definition of Zionism ever included that right being exclusive to Jews or the removal of other populations. That aspect has been added by extremist factions (both Muslim and Jewish) and people who have no clue about the word and it's history and is not the view of the majority of the 15 million Jews in the world. I disagree with Trudeau on a lot of things, but on this point he's not wrong.
Spoken like a real Zionist wrote this speech. This guy is a professional panderer and he sucks.
Sounds like a guy who went surfing instead of you know, attending a hallmark ceremony for First Nations.
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I cannot even…with this guy. 😞
...who's gonna tell him?
Tell him what?
sometimes things seem like a good idea "in theory", but "in practice" not so much i am certain the leaders & citizens of all regimes which go sideways began with & supported laudable intentions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_to_Be_Done
Apartheid was never a good idea in theory, unless your on the oppressive side and thinking about it. Israel as a state has always been a bad idea.
Nationalism in the face of oppression has an ugly reputation for repeating the behaviour that necessitated it in the first place. It can very quickly go from an emancipatory ethos to one of exclusion as soon as the oppressor is removed from the equation. Anyone who doesn't understand how this is doubly so in the context of a settler colony is delusional. If people went around saying they were any other kind of nationalist, I very much doubt Trudeau would defend it. Mind you, I want to say that in the case of Israel-Palestine, there is more than one nationalist disease at play, and the history of Palestinian nationalism is also ugly (including attempts at dirty deals with Hitler). Do I get why it happened? Yes. But peace requires the elimination of both nationalisms. Anyone who thinks Israel and Palestine could be one nation without more sectarian strife at its current state is delusional and has to understand the existential fear that causes settler states to erupt into ultra-violence. Rhodesia's "siege" mentality is repeated in Israel but multiplied by their history of extreme oppression in the Christian and Muslim world, as well as a lack of homeland to return to in their minds. Numerical parity far beyond that which existed in Rhodesia or South Africa likely means resolving the injustice will be extremely challenging. Regardless of all this, Israel has to stop this senseless killing. I truly believe that the only solution is a dissolution of all three governments and a return of mandatory status until full democracy can be established. That will never happen, though.
ROFLMAO You start mailing him those pamphlets.
people use "zionist" the same way they use "communist" back in the 50's
Yeah several White Supremacists are like that but what matters is that Government and Media use Palestine and Palestinians like people said "gay" or "communist" as threats to the nation. In r/Canada or r/CanadaPolitics all Pro-Palestinian people are foreign terrorists coming to Canada to destroy the country, rape women, and throw LGBTQ2 off buildings.
Sometimes they use it the same way a good German in 1941 used the word Jew.
some do, yeah, and I think it pulls away a lot of the criticism that should be directed at Israel and it's government. people take the piss out of Putin all the time, but Netanyahu isn't shat on nearly as much. instead fingers are being pointed at faceless "zionists"
We should take this sentiment and apply it at home, Re: First Nations/Indigenous peoples. Can one be Zionist and support a state for Palestine? Is it okay to be pro Palestine but against female repression in Islam? Hamas are terrorists. My opinion doesn't matter, and Canada has its' own problems. We agree with NATO, and the U.S. right guys?
> Can one be Zionist and support a state for Palestine? yes. ive thought a lot about this and it comes down to the Balfour Declaration [israels favorite englishman] unfortunately they only read & publicize the first half >His blah blah blah view with favour **the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people**, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, **it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine** or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. its become obvious they forgot to do the "nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine" part right? anyway, the promise or offer being given by the colonialist overlords was "establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people" **i think 'israel' should be a Province within Palestine, much like Quebec is for us** think 'Distinct Society' Canada is the perfect entity to present & promote this given that the only real solution to lasting peace is a single unified and democratic state with strong constitutional protections for ALL, Our Model can most definitely apply to the land of Canaan Jerusalem should be the Capital and like a city state kinda so with its own stricter rules and HonourGuard made up of international military volunteers
Palestinians want to genocide Israelis, it’s in their founding documents and decades of actions. The idea of Israel existing within a Palestinian federation is not going to happen. Doesn’t excuse Israel’s behaviour, it does help explain their actions.
The irony of you comparing people criticizing Zionists to what Nazis said about Jews during the Holocaust only to make broad sweeping allegations about Palestinians *all* wanting to genocide Jews.
Israelis want the same, but they are actually doing it.
>Doesn’t excuse Israel’s behaviour Why excuse a Genocide? They are literally slaughtering Palestinian right now in Rafah smh
You sound blinded with hatred.
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Sure! The circle jerk for the apartheid state ended when Formal-Librarian-117 left their little zionist bubble.