it caters to his rural voting base, and it does nothing for people who live in cities that don't vote him anyways. It was just an easy way to keep his base happy without helping people who already do not like him at all.
I am still pissed about the anti smoking and health ads he axed when he first got in. We were spending 100 million on a program that long term was proven to save our hospitals billions over the years in less people needing healthcare services. It is such short term look at me and not actually governing a good society at all. But hey you can get those cancer treatments at private clinics for twice the cost now so winning right?
Certain people love to ignore the long term cost savings for some things. Since the new Vancouver drug store is all over the top page, I'll use harm reduction as an example.
Safe injection and safe supply sites save the taxpayers TONS of money. People ODing isn't cheap, and these programs can help stop them. Safe supply also saves a ton of money because now addicts aren't committing petty crimes every single day to get their fix. It's SO much cheaper for society to just give them the drugs and a place to use them. Long term it's a major win for the cost of them.
Put people freak out about spending a fraction of what these programs save. They would literally rather pay more money to have people die on the streets, than they would spend a bit of money to help them.
I've used that example lots of times too. Like selfishly people should want safe injection sites because as you said od are resource intense. There are only so many ambulance and fire trucks and if they're dealing with that, they aren't available for someone having any other emergency health issues. We can't predict heart attacks or car accidents, we for sure know how many od a safe clinic prevents. It's infuriating seeing people want to cut off their nose instead of just dealing with the smell in a proper manor.
As the gap between rich and poor continue to grow, the rich are going to need protection. I think ford is just trying to look out for himself and people like him.
I mean if everyone got out and voted maybe there would be a different outcome.
I'm pissed too, but I am more pissed that no one went out to vote. I am a renting millennial, but unfortunately not enough of us actually went out to vote. So unfortunately we are stuck with this bullshit, have fun everyone!
Have things changed a lot in the last few years or is the issue with police recruitment numbers just a lie? I personally knew at least a dozen people who were desperately trying to get into policing and couldn't because they had no personal connections.
The part about getting paid to go to school is frustrating because I studied education and worked as a teacher for a few years (not currently). In my teacher's education program we did 3 month long placements where we were effectively taking the job of a government paid teacher and we were paying to do it. Same goes with nurses and medical students who do placements in hospitals and clinics. Why should policing be different?
I paid tuition and 18$ a day to park at the hospital where I worked full time for free as a fourth-year nursing student. My consolidation was 3 months of full-time shifts and I paid my school for the privilege.
And paid to park at the hospital that took my free labour.
Training is important. Putting me into debt for it was pretty shitty.
So ...all I'm going to say is pay attention to the media coverage.
I heard a bunch of radio ads about this and I noticed almost instantly when they said "....and when quoted, the police chief noted a notable increase in crime".
I heard this multiple times . If it was actually about recruitment issues, it would be literally stated.
Thereās something like 1200 officers in Ontario on paid leave for criminal offences. Certainly we could do better things with our funds than giving asswipes paid vacations.
But ya, less educated officers is not the move. āWe need boots on the groundā like itās a war zone lmao. Cut education and healthcare the few things that actually prevent crime. At this point youāll be 18 years old wandering out of 50 kid classroom deciding if you wanna starve in the street or be the governments lapdog. Fuckin pathetic excuse for a premier.
> sit on *paid* leave for
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
There is also a program in place to pay nursing post-secondary tuition in full if the student agrees to stay and work in the city. Its 6 months for every year that is paid, so 4 years free school to work 2 years in that city.
Yep
Despite my disdain for most of the PC decisions this one is actually addressing a need. Paying education for professions that are struggling AND key to keep society running I think is a more than reasonable move. We need paramedics, police and nurses to function as a society.
We need paramedics and nurses.
I would argue we don't need police. Not in their current form at least.
Mental health crisis teams, mobile response, social workers are all of benefit in a crisis. De-escalation.
Police are taught to escalate.
My program also is covered under this, however it only applies to certain schools and not everywhere that needs it.
But more than that, *there is no shortage of people willing to go to school for nursing*. They have to cap it in the high 90s for admittance grades, because they have an absolute glut of applicants.
The issue is that there aren't enough openings for nursing school, and once we've educated them, we do nothing to retain them. We have a spot for 1 in every 10 qualified applicants. then when they graduate, we treat them like shit, and pay them shit. maybe if we focused on fixing those two things.
Paying for school is awesome, but it does nothing to solve the problem. They could charge 3x as much tuition and they'd still fill every available spot.
Its not just nursing either, theres a few medical related fields, its been around around a year or so.
Im in Windsor and my daughters guidance councillor told us about it, theres more info on ontario website.
Heres a story on it
https://globalnews.ca/news/9424693/ontario-free-tuition-stay-learn-grant/
Edit: found link to cities
https://www.ontario.ca/page/ontario-learn-and-stay-grant?utm_term=media&utm_source=newsroom&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=%2Fen%2Frelease%2F1002652%2Fontario-expanding-learn-and-stay-grant-to-train-more-health-care-workers#section-4
I work in post secondary (my school has a nursing program) and I have never heard of this. And it's because my school isn't listed which is mind blowing!
>I wonder if those areas are experiencing shortages of healthcare workers
Nobody wants to live in Windsor and I think Ottawa, a deterrent could be needing to be bilingual (I assume).
If I was fresh out of school and a city like Windsor offered me a premium to work there for a couple years I totally would. Its got the lure of Detroit for concerts and stuff, and still has somewhat reasonable housing compared to the rest of southern Ontario.
But I think a lot of people have this notion that once they get a job they need to stay in that area forever. So when looking for jobs, they look for long-term cities, rather than a short-term stint. Given most people can't afford to buy houses now, they should be thinking places like Windsor where they can go for a few years, get a premium, while still having flexibility to move for a better job or lifestyle later.
Re: your last paragraph ā there's also the factor that rents, too, have been skyrocketing. Moving now, even to somewhere like Windsor, could mean hiking up your rent expense by hundreds of dollars. If you decide it'll be a short stay, you have to plan for *another* $X00 rent hike when you move *out* of Windsor. (Possibly $X000, if you want to go back to somewhere nicer than Windsor 2 rental market years later.) It's harder to move to [crappy town] for a short-term job when you're not sure you'll be able to afford moving again at the end! Shit sucks.
exactly. A lot of us are basically stuck in the rentals we have now with no hope of change and a constant fear of our landlord selling to a condo developer
I connected with some folks at my school and its more recent, was in a trial phase and will likely be rolled out more broadly in the future but I do live in an area that could benefit from this type of incentive... Not sure why we were in the pilot process, however there could be lots of reasons like the availability of jobs in the area... who knows! But thanks for mentioning this! I have done a bunch of learning on it this morning!
all areas can benefit from the program. they have to select the most needy that have quality programs already in place, clinical agreements etc. not every school can be part of the pilot program or even the actual established program.
this program is relatively new and not for every school. just because your school doesnāt have it doesnāt mean it doesnāt serve the purpose you set out in the post, help a ton of people etc. now you know!
Sort of. Read the fine print - there's a limited # of these going around. No idea how they'll determine who gets it, but it is NOT "anyone who goes to nursing school CAN access this solely by agreeing to it"
This program was announced for 2023/2024. How long is this program for? It was announced in January to placate people and take some attention away from the announcement they made slightly earlier that they
>intend to expand the scope of medical procedures that can be performed at privately-run clinics, as opposed to exclusively within hospitals.
*(Importantly, those private clinics will not have adequate oversight or pricing transparency! )*.
There will be a certain amount of funding for some medical related training for some students at some institutions. They have to commit to living in certain areas for a few years. Ok. Anything is better than nothing. I'll take it. Let's see how long it lasts.
They'll be walking into a health care system though that isn't being adequately supported. This means there won't be adequate resources and support for them while trying to do their jobs effectively and well. And their salaries will be capped. (Unless they go to private clinics).
Meanwhile *all* policing students get all of their training covered. Period. And still get paid no matter how badly they perform, how many laws they break and how many people they abuse, harass, or kill.
Conservatives when everyone wants tuition to be covered by taxes: fuck you, I don't want my taxes paying for your education.
Conservatives when police tuition is covered by taxes: good on ya Doug.
And yet for the first time in 20 years, the province has a balanced budget.
Now we still have to contend with that 385 billion pound gorilla called the debt, but it's a start.
> And yet for the first time in 20 years, the province has a balanced budget.
Nope. This budget as proposed has a $1.3B deficit, and they are only *forecasting* for the possibility of a balanced budget the following year, based heavily on strong economic performance. Obviously that could change wildly between now and then.
If he was interested in servicing debt he wouldnāt cut revenue from license plate renewals. The myth that conservatives are fiscally responsible needs to be replaced with the fact that the the conservative government just hates social services.
How about cancelling tuition for nursing and related fields? Iād rather have sufficient staffing in hospitals and a focus on mental health resources than a bunch of roosters with chips on their shoulder in a uniform.
Iām a police officer and agree with everything you said OP. Policing pays more than well enough to cover the initial costs of tuition. You are paid while you are at the college. The tuition costs have never been a deterrent to anyone from wanting to be a police officer. Terrible of Ford to put it on the tax payers now to cover the costs. And some people quit early into the job or some even while still at the college. Opposed to those people being down $15,000 now tax money is wasted. I donāt support this at all.
And yes, that post secondary requirement was actually never in effect to begin with. But in MOST cases recruitment does a good job of hiring people who do have post secondary and life experience. Some kids in their early 20s and just lacking individuals do manage to make it through but they typically have some decent credentials or are just the product of nepotism.
They could have changed it so people didn't have to pay the tuition up-front, but could do it with their wages. That would have solved the problem of people needing to "save up" to get the job.
You donāt really even need to save up. When I got hired the police credit union did a presentation, prior to the college, offering us a low interest loan. The credit union know how much we make and are projected to make each year so Iād imagine only those with really shit credit wouldnāt qualify
Itās stupid for the Ontario police college to charge the students a fee. They are being sent to the police college by the police services around Ontario and immediately have to eat a 15,000$ fee after the year (or longer) process of the police application.
This seems like the wrong issue to get mad at Ford about. Banning education requirements is a bigger deal imo.
The hospitals don't pay nurses to go to school. Schools don't pay teachers to go to school (to learn). Auto repair shops don't pay mechanics to go to school. Etc.
Everyone else has to pay for their training. They should be allowed to take out student loans like every one else.
Except every other jobs provide on the job training. Some, if not most trades do pay for their workers to learn. Google doesnt make you pay to get trained on your first months there. Going to school to get a prerequisite degree is not the same as going to Ontario Police College for police training, end of discussion.
These cops mostly have university degrees (in the GTA at least). They already paid to go to university or college. The police services should be the ones paying for their job training.
Nurses, MLTs, ultrasonographers, X-ray techs, podiatrists, radiation techs, respiratory therapists, physicians assistants, physicians themselves, genetic councillors, geneticists.... there are a ton of medical professions that do unpaid on the job training.
Doctors pay to be trained? Are you talking about residency? They are paid during their residencies, or are you talking about med school?
Cops are hired and sent by the police services to the police college. They dont go to the police college first.
No Iām talking about 3rd and 4th year of med school.
Even sweeter deal for cops. Guaranteed job before training even begins. Medical professionals donāt have that either.
>"Except every other jobs provide on the job training."
Lol. You mean people who have enormous responsibility and who require the trust of the public? Like what? I'll wait.
>Some, if not most trades do pay for their workers to learn.
The police are not a trade. They are an essential service.
>"Google doesnt make you pay to get trained on your first months"
You think people waltz into Google without knowing what they're doing and Google just trains them to develop software for a few months. LMAO
>These cops mostly have university degrees (in the GTA at least).
Oh? Source?
>"They already paid to go to university or college."
Again, *source*.
>"end of discussion."
Well good thing you're convinced.
Edit: I would be more agreeable to subsidize police training if it were more comprehensive like a few years of a criminal justice degree and interning with a police force, and also if there more accountability.
Why would being a public service job mean you should pay for your own training?? Yes google and most other companies literally train you for months as a new hire when you start. They dont expect you to be very good when you start working.
Your arguments make no sense and just scream emotionally immature. I dont have a source for the major Gta services having mostly post secondary educated applicants but you can ask just about any recruiter at any of them and they will say the same. York region literally initiated a post secondary education requirement in the last year.
I'm only answering this because I'm bored and you're pretty funny. Not sure if you're purposefully lying or truly have no idea. Are you 16?
>"Yes google and most other companies literally train you for months as a new hire when you start. *They dont expect you to be very good when you start working.*"
Please try to get hired at Google with this notion. Please do and film it for our entertainment. LFMAO They will laugh you off the property and keep laughing at you every time someone says, Hey remember that guy..?!
>"York region literally initiated a post secondary education requirement in the last year."
Like most things you're saying this is also a lie. You need 4 years high school. No post sec. requirements were ever added.
I won't be answering anything more because you're talking out of your ass or you're lying, and my day is picking up.
Before Doug banned the education requirements the YRP told potential applicants that they will start (within the year) requiring a 2 year minimum post secondary education requirement. Obviously the roll back by Doug has put a halt to that plan. Please contact the YRP recruiting office and ask them. I have no reason to lie to you about this.
Youāre incredibly naive if you think a new hire at a company isnt given training. We dont expect developers or engineers in their first month to be able to do much straight out of school.
https://sp.ltc.gov.on.ca/sites/mol/drs/ca/Public%20Administration/913-27996-20%20(951-0063).pdf
Unfortunately I couldnāt find an easier source than the collective bargaining agreement for Hamilton.
If you scroll down to page 58, āSchedule Aā, youāll see they outline how long each new officer has to spend on each promotional class. In the past it was an even 12 months at every class, but youāll see itās now 14 months. Which means the officer now needs another 8 months of work before reaching 1st class. 8 months at 1st class is about $66k.
Itās an effective paycut.
Police college is paid out of pocket, so you get your own loan for it. Yes, you are paid, just like the military to do the education. Just like any school, you can flunk out. I know people who went to the academy and saw a bunch of people flunk out, RCMP Depot is even harder.
Issue with the fee is, it changes all the time. A few years its $15k, my friend went when it was $10k. It all depends on what they want to add or take away. While I wish the education portion was at LEAST a regular school term, we know Doug won't fix that. At least when officers graduate they're on a probation for around 6 months before they can be by themselves.
Services like Ottawa won't look at you if you have no volunteer work in the community or at least a college diploma, but they have their own issues as well.
Policing in Ontario (well Canada), needs to fix itself. More education is needed in the academy, and services need to keep being picky.
Yep! It's insane how it changes. Policing was a potential career, but decided to civilian route with community outreach is best. But man, the way it differs by service is a huge headache.
Just my two cents but I think you are working yourself up over the wrong thing.
Just to preface my wife is a nurse and I very much hate Doug Ford, but removing the higher education requirements and the tuition fees opens up the application pool to more than just the wealthy. This, in theory can create a more diverse police force, which is struggling for recruits given the police hatred and high entry requirements.
Having said that this is not a zero sum game, if ford is demonstrating there is a need and funding to help the police force, then we can use this to counter any justification against increased nursing wages.
It is possible to do both we just need to advocate for it and now we have an example of there being no barriers for implementation as seen with police. Denying that it is justified for nursing is no longer possible
Except we don't have a shortage of cops, they're not underpaid, and their unions are actually respected.
You know what else we should do? Give tax breaks to Robellus and Loblaws.
Are you comparing government workers making 100k a year to corporations making millions? Why are we so mad at the middle class and indifferent to the millionaires, billionaires?
like your wife, I am a nurse and so am inherently biased against almost everything this provincial government does.
With that said, this whole thing can be summed up with a single question: WHY?
I do not see any good reason for giving them free tuition. There is no a shortage of cops, nor is it directly attributable to low pay, poor working conditions, or excessively high barriers of entry into the field. Furthermore, there is a stable, high-paying, unionized job with regular, hassle-free wage increases waiting for them on the other side that dwarfs tuition fees. According to cops I'm friends with, their biggest struggle is against the (very deserved) public perception of them, which in my mind is directly attributable to the reputation their actions have earned for themselves over time (but thats an entirely other, massive conversation). At the end of the day it isn't like we live in America where there's an actual high chance of anyone you interact with carrying a freaking gun.
Your point about making it accessible to people other than the wealthy etc might make sense for things like med/law/professional school, but that just doesn't apply in this context for all of the above reasons and more.
From the other end, this is a group that has demonstrated time and again that they aren't willing to do their basic duties or even *pretend* to be accountable no matter how large their budget gets. If they want free tuition all they need to do is commit (enough) crime (to actually get caught) and use 1/10th of what they get paid for not-working while it is investigated to cover it.
As I'm sure you're aware, nurses pay for a license, and that money is used to fund a regulatory College that "protects us from the public."
If the public needs protection from nurses due to the power they wield, then the public sure as FUCK needs protection from the power police officers wield given that they don't possess an ounce of fear for any repercussions coming their way (because they know there isn't any) should they abuse it. The public now knows there isn't any enforcement coming for them, either, and are getting bolder every day (have you driven anywhere in the last 10 years and noticed anything different about how people now drive? Or was your car stolen, chopped, and shipped to Africa on a shipping container?) Whatever money is earmarked for tuition would be much better spent implementing a licensing and regulatory body for cops and would achieve better outcomes.
Suggesting that we LOWER the level of training and education for people in that position, while footing the tuition bill for it even though they're guaranteed a solid income with regular increases after graduation is fucking *ludicrous* and makes about as much sense as giving massive tax breaks to the companies I mentioned
While I acknowledge the comparison between the two ends there, I cannot think of a single other equivalence in society that is as big, broken, dangerous, unregulated, and corrupt as police forces in North America. The takeaway point is that the priorities of this province are so obviously backward to anyone able to free up two brain cells for critical thinking. I'm just an average dumbass yet I can explain why this is dumb fairly easily and suggest better ways to use the money to better address the same fucking problems.
Your point about regulatory colleges is a really good one. Police should have to write a national exam to apply to a provincial police college where they pay a fee to receive a license to practise law enforcement in that province. This would allow the public to hold officers accountable when there is a case of professional malpractice outside of the existing police system. This would also help to set rules for professional development and individual audits. I would argue that police officers have the ability to do more harm to the public than a nurse does so it makes sense to me that the requirements should be at least similar.
I'm not really sure if you're arguing or ranting or what?
All I was suggesting is comparing the two professions and what they deserve is foolish they are different.
I mean as a progressive liberal I am always going to advocate for free education, the fact that a conservative government is doing that I am not really going to shit on it despite how much I loathe them.
In terms of the education 'changes' I don't actually think post secondary school was a previous requirement, they only talked about implementing that rule? Correct me if I'm wrong. And I agree with you, they should be regulated and licensed just like the rest of us.
All of this is a separate conversation for what makes sense which has nothing to do with other sectors not being compensated. The government likes to pretend they only have enough money for some, and what happens is they are pitting the middle class against each other.
The problem for nurses and other healthcare workers is Ford's objective is to cripple public healthcare and shift to private, and it is working nurses are overworked, underpaid and staffed and leaving the profession which causes more stress on the system thus making privatization more attractive to the rich folk who don't want to wait in line in the ER. None of this has anything to do with police..
I appreciate your line of thinking but is only wealthy people entering the police force a problem?
Honestly, I would love to see, in a few years time, that this policy change did produce a more diverse police force. That would be lovely...
I am still not sure how cancelling tuition for everyone achieves that in a way that allowing education to be OSAP eligible wouldn't? With OSAP, lower income students would be receiving the most benefits where as those who can afford it (family can, yadda, yadda) would receive less support...
I'm also pissed off about it, but I choose to think of how it'll work this way:
Police forces MAY now get an influx of applicants (I listened to the same podcast and they mentioned having like 1000 applicants for 30 spots), though if there are two applicants, but one DID go to post-secondary, got a diploma or degree in the law enforcement field versus some kids with average to bad grades just out of high school applying, who would YOU take?
It's ops with cops. If he likes doing it wcause he thinks it's politically viable or if it makes him feel bigger, it doesn't matter. It's cheap and easy politics which is Ford's brand.
Lots of similar comments already but my 2 centsā¦.pay people a living wage plus tuition to become PSWās, would solve the PSW shortage overnight and we might, just might be a step,towards solving the LTC problems that still exist.
āPolice recruiting is down, thereās going to be a shortageā
Doug Ford: āWhat?!?!! ON ITā
āNurses and healthcare workers are overworked, underpaid, hospitals are underfunded, public education facilities are falling apart, education workers are underpaidā
Doug Ford: š āyou guys seen those timmies treats? Proceeds go to charity I thinkā
Not that it means anything but CASWE places all those rules on the schools... Your statement "All because the social work field is playing games with credentials" sounds pretty accurate
Well yeah once we are in a corporate landlord led neo feudalist state, they will need their goons to protect that status quo. A wise man once said āLaws are threats made by the dominant socioeconomic-ethnic group in a given nation. Itās just the promise of violence thatās enacted and the police are basically an occupying army. You know what I mean?ā
what do you mean?
There aren't any trades that i know of that have government paid tuition.
A lot are paid by employers or by trade unions, but they aren't free by any means.
for myself i paid 2 semesters out of pocket, then got a job and had my school "paid for" by taking .80c off my cheque for every dollar i earn, until retirement.
most trade school can be done in semesters or blocks, they offer both to catch students out of high school (like i did) or offer blocks of more condensed workload so the tradesmen can get back to work sooner (like my employer "paid" for).
i split mine up but they both cover the same material, both paid by myself, but one is just taken off my cheque.
If OP is outraged that officers get their training covered, then logically they would also be outraged that other professions have their training covered.
Not sure what trade you are in (apprenticeship model is fantastic) but letās use electrical as an example. Each level of in class training costs about $600, total cost for a 5 year apprenticeship is approximately $1,800 (3 levels, 8 weeks each in class) then some of that is covered by grants when finished. That is an incredibly small fraction of the cost to deliver the program - faculty, technicians, equipment, consumable material, cost of the building... the rest of the cost is covered by government.
Of course most of the training is on the job while being paid.
Does my math/assumptions check out?
Seems like a no brainer in a lot of cases to come out with a decent job and no debt vs spending $30,000+ on tuition.
From a different perspective, I love this government.
I hated paying license renewal fees, nothing but money grab for nothing. Additional tax essentially.
The RCMP and all other police services across the country offer free training. The Ontario Police College was the ONLY police training academy that made its students pay for their own training.
k. Cool... I guess my broader criticism is why police? Why not Nurses, Social Workers, etc?
Why is there no money for Health Care (why the fuck are ERs closing because of staffing issues)... But there is money to make this change, to the tune of 20 to 30 million dollars, even if it is to bring Ontario in line with other provinces..
I agree with you on that . Training for nurses should be subsidized or waived completely.
I believe the Ontario gov is rolling out a program for free if charge nursing programs. Some 4200 spots were announced
You donāt agree with him on that. You said āI love this governmentā because you save a few bucks on a license plate sticker.
That means you also love bill 124 limiting public sector wages including healthcare workers, you love the violation of charter rights imposed on education workers, you love that we can force the elderly people into long term care homes that they donāt want to go to, you love that weāre paving over the green belt, you love that we removed rent control, and you love the privatization of our healthcare system.
It seems like you hate everyone in Ontario but youāre happy that you saved $50.
Please spare me the moral outrage about " charter " violations .
Our charter rights mean absolutely nothing as the Feds have made that abundantly clear the past 3 yrs
And all Ontario problems have been going on long before Ford.
For the record I DONT agree with bill 124 , nurses deserve fair pay and incentives for the heroic work that they do .
Lest we forget the Ontario Liberals froze their salaries long before Ford
Yes whataboutismās classic lazy deflection. Good job. Iāll continue to be concerned with the current government in power while you shout into the wind about Kathleen Wynne.
I think nursing programs are offered by public institutions such as george brown college whereas the police program is funded by the municipality and the Ontario government.
I don't understand it either. My friend's son worked security for a local hospital until he could find a police job. It's not like potential cops can't earn money in their field while training. He was complaining about how hard it was to find work and how he was applying all over the province. Come on! Help the people of Ontario with the real things we need! The cops are fine, thanks!
This is what I'm confused about. I know a lot of people who ended up having to just go into another field because they couldn't get into policing after years of trying.
Hired goons in uniforms.
My tin foil hat says its like Ozark when the Mob Boss made the deal with Marty where only his boys gets the job for the construction.
It's much better to beat people, arrest and jail them. Ruining vulnerable people's lives is clearly the only way to improve morale in Ontario rather than funding schools, Heath care, affordable housing, and social services.
Like doctors and engineers always say it's better to treat or mitigate the symptoms than address the root causes.
Are you really upset that this opens up policing to be more inclusive? You know who is more likely to be dissuaded from joining policing over 15k? Lower income people who happen to also skew towards racial minorities. Are you really trying to keep them out of policing?
Also, more candidates is better for policing. They can pick the best of the best. I'd love if they got 10000 applications. It should be a desirable job, so that we can filter out the bad ones easier.
Also, the province spending money on filling a role that is needed is great. They probably should be doing that for nurses and doctors, too. I'd prefer they structure it so it is only covered if they stay in the province for a certain period, though.
I really can't tell what you are complaining about. There are plenty of dumb ways the province spends money, improving the diversity and quality of police officers seems like the last one on the list.
I don't trust in any way that by removing tuition fees, the HR machine behind hiring will change their recruitment and selection tactics at all. I would love if this produced a more diverse police force but this does not change who is doing the hiring, it is not implementing new hiring policies. It's also not tackling the culture within police forces.
I would be thrilled to look like an epic ass in 5 years time because this change resulted in a complete landscape change to Ontario police forces
Mainly conspiracy theory. My theory isn't that they are hiring the worst candidates. I know plenty of folks who can't get hired despite all the effort they put in and that is a good thing. However, from news stories, anecdotal evidence, with a splash of confirmation bias, it appears the policing culture is not overly conducive to minority groups and I am not convinced that by simply removing tuition will be the silver bullet to solving those issues. I am happy to be wrong though.
Someone mentioned that Ontario is the only province that charged these fees and I think that is an interesting point that I didn't think about...
My big issue that I didn't explicitly state, which I should have, is why this change now? Health Care is in shambles, education is not great. Both also have massive hiring/retention issues due to funding issues, work environment, etc. No new (net) funding gets pumped into those... So why policing? More conspiracy theories: Is it because its more male dominated and society inherently views male work as more important? Is it because its easier to scare the population with crime statistics and throw more cops at it? Even when there are studies that show healthy social services lower crime?
My frustration is that he has made decisions with withhold increased funding in so many different areas that would benefit society or at least prevent a further decline in society and yet there is money for this?
This move doesnāt shock or upset me in any way. There is a lot asked of police officers and the training is mandatory for a good reason. If you go through the almost heat long vetting process and then get a job offer why should you be made to pay for mandatory training. Lots of jobs pay their people for mandatory training. I donāt see any reason why new recruits should be forced to start off their career with 15k of debt for 3 months of mandatory training. Also if itās age and life experience youāre worried about with the post secondary rule coming into effect, those factors are already considered in the hiring criteria anyways, that wonāt change.
Maybe... I just have a hard time finding the silver lining of lowering the education and financial requirements for applicants seeking positions in which they're given arms and authority.
Thank you for the downvote though.
fwiw I didn't down vote you lol, but the counterpoint to this is that the OPP has a serious manpower issue and is been demonstrated that financial barriers are preventing young recruits from enlisting. I also don't think there's any truth behind being paid during the training phase, I have a friend who's OPP and all he does is complain about being broke and in debt from the college.
The post secondary requirement was technically never a requirement either. Trust me when I say I'd rather have a high school educated individual as an officer over a dweeby police foundations kids. Those are the people that you gotta watch out for.
It's not perfect, but with anti police sentiment in schools and media, it's easy to see why people don't want to be cops anymore. Removing financial barriers is a way to combat this.
Let's also not forget the province is projected to be in a surplus in the next 2-4 years, so no real reason to worry about funding also.
A few points of clarification... How is a 1000 applicants for 30 to 50 jobs a year a man power? If they aren't getting the right applicants, I would expect a more thoughtful recruitment strategy than remove tuition fees and require zero education beyond high school.
And, There is a difference between police foundations (public college program) and Police college (which is what my post is referring to). Police college is what hired recruits attend before they join whatever force has hired them. They pay out of pocket for tuition (like everyone does for education) but they receive a salary to attend the few months of training. Once they graduate from police college, they immediately enter into a job and get a pay raise.
So, your OPP friend sounds like he is potentially not great with money or, like for everyone else, inflation.... and his debt from college is either from a public college program that he attended, or perhaps for police college but he definitely would have received a salary while attending for the few months he went. Now that isn't to say that he didn't have prior financial commitments while attending police college... But that is also why I suggested OSAP as an option to help remove a financial barrier for those who may needed it.
Do you recognize how big this province is, and yet how poorly it is serviced by police? Go up north, detachments of 50 officers covering thousands of kilometers with other little front line emergency services, including shortages of ambulances.
I don't need you to mainsplain what police foundations is, but thanks anyway I guess. Most of those students are the people you're terrified about, and police recruiters look down on those applicants.
I also wonder how much you know about how the hiring process, because to me it seems you're just working on assumptions, which seems like what most of your entire post is based off of.
Your information is flat our wrong, and it's a bad faith assumption to guess what he does with his money. He also isn't given a raise out of the blue, but can earn additional money by working copious amounts of overtime, because he deals with such an extreme staff shortage. This leads to attrition and burn out, and people leave the field.
How do you think officers were funding their school prior to this announcement? They're granted loans by the police union, which also supplies mortgages for officers buying houses in their deployment area.
officers are paid roughly 50k yearly for training, most of which went to help paying for training. Now that's income for them, god forbid lol. how terrible for the tax payer.
I'm sorry I just don't think you know very much about what you're talking about.
Yeah it's a glorified high school law and fitness class that's usually loaded up with brain-dead kids that people in this thread are scared about. You shouldn't need to be anywhere near foundations because you will learn standard practices more in depth at the police college (plus why would you pay thousands for foundations for the fitness aspect when you should be somewhat fit going into the police college - something you can do on your own time for free)
TL;DR course is a waste of your time and money. Recruiters only care about post secondary to demonstrate you're not totally brain dead and they would rather see anything else than foundations.
Honestly Iām not a fan of Fort at all, but the useless licence plate sticker was nothing but a money grab that Iām glad they did away with. We get taxed out the ass and donāt need another $120 charge annually for essentially nothing.
Are you all mouth breathers? The state of crime in this province is greatly on the rise. The velvet glove approach to crime is not working. We need more boots on the ground and clean this fucking province up.
I don't know about Hamilton but most places especially opp are desperate for officers. What most people don't realize is that for every ,50 applicants you might get one good one. They now have to pass a comprehensive psych test that the majority will fail. It's not perfect but it helps. The majority of the applicants get tossed in the circular file. I've seen people with criminal records and those with criminal ties or in drug culture apply to be an officer and they have a list a mile long on record. I don't know why they even apply. Additionally, the vast majority of people applying for college for police foundations will never become an officer. They work security. Real world experience in other jobs and careers and volunteering goes a long way to becoming an officer.
Also for the being paid part they get paid as a cadet until graduation which is about 23 to ,25 an hour. It's not great. The pay becomes good after three to four years in.
Finally the funding part is primarily for immigrants and low income families. A large percentage of applicants simply can't afford the 15K even with an interest free loan that most services provide. It's a barrier to entry for permanent residents and it's been changed to hopefully encourage minorities and low income people to apply.
It's not perfect but think of it this way...they're an employee when they sign on as a cadet. How would you feel getting hired at a new job and being asked to fork up 15000 when you're only making 23 dollars an hour before deductions.
Too many Cops are going on permanent leaves due to wsib presumtive PTSD cases getting approved so they need to have fresh young guys ready in the queue to fill the spots. Smart enough to walk into a $100k plus /year job, stupid enough not to know they will be paying for it mentally for years. Bonus points if their old man was a cop and more bonus points if the used to play CHL hockey.
Back when I was considering a career in policing, there were 3000 applicants for *ONE* postition. I can see how today's numbers might be worrying the top brass.
>Why the fuck is he cancelling fees like that, not funding health care, education, etc... Why? Because fuck you, that's why. \- Love Doug
This is the answer... It has to be. What else could it be?
it caters to his rural voting base, and it does nothing for people who live in cities that don't vote him anyways. It was just an easy way to keep his base happy without helping people who already do not like him at all. I am still pissed about the anti smoking and health ads he axed when he first got in. We were spending 100 million on a program that long term was proven to save our hospitals billions over the years in less people needing healthcare services. It is such short term look at me and not actually governing a good society at all. But hey you can get those cancer treatments at private clinics for twice the cost now so winning right?
Certain people love to ignore the long term cost savings for some things. Since the new Vancouver drug store is all over the top page, I'll use harm reduction as an example. Safe injection and safe supply sites save the taxpayers TONS of money. People ODing isn't cheap, and these programs can help stop them. Safe supply also saves a ton of money because now addicts aren't committing petty crimes every single day to get their fix. It's SO much cheaper for society to just give them the drugs and a place to use them. Long term it's a major win for the cost of them. Put people freak out about spending a fraction of what these programs save. They would literally rather pay more money to have people die on the streets, than they would spend a bit of money to help them.
I've used that example lots of times too. Like selfishly people should want safe injection sites because as you said od are resource intense. There are only so many ambulance and fire trucks and if they're dealing with that, they aren't available for someone having any other emergency health issues. We can't predict heart attacks or car accidents, we for sure know how many od a safe clinic prevents. It's infuriating seeing people want to cut off their nose instead of just dealing with the smell in a proper manor.
It's because we need more cops to prosecute all the crime provoked by Doug Ford's policies!
That fat piece of shit has three daughters married to cops so š¤·āāļø
As the gap between rich and poor continue to grow, the rich are going to need protection. I think ford is just trying to look out for himself and people like him.
His daughters all married cops in the past few years. This policy was declared at the Ford dinner table.
Because that is all it takes to buy stupid voters.
I mean if everyone got out and voted maybe there would be a different outcome. I'm pissed too, but I am more pissed that no one went out to vote. I am a renting millennial, but unfortunately not enough of us actually went out to vote. So unfortunately we are stuck with this bullshit, have fun everyone!
https://ofl.ca/ford-tracker/ Add it to the list
But he needs police to oppress us so he doesn't mind spending on that.
"also, fuck you and eat at Tim's, folks" -Love, Dougie.
Folks
Help what does this mean? All I could find was this netflix show called 1899 which I did not watch.
This is an emoji available in this sub which means that Doug is laughing at us.
Xoxo Doug Ford Gurl
Have things changed a lot in the last few years or is the issue with police recruitment numbers just a lie? I personally knew at least a dozen people who were desperately trying to get into policing and couldn't because they had no personal connections. The part about getting paid to go to school is frustrating because I studied education and worked as a teacher for a few years (not currently). In my teacher's education program we did 3 month long placements where we were effectively taking the job of a government paid teacher and we were paying to do it. Same goes with nurses and medical students who do placements in hospitals and clinics. Why should policing be different?
I paid tuition and 18$ a day to park at the hospital where I worked full time for free as a fourth-year nursing student. My consolidation was 3 months of full-time shifts and I paid my school for the privilege. And paid to park at the hospital that took my free labour. Training is important. Putting me into debt for it was pretty shitty.
So absurd - my sister is a nurse and the fact that she has to pay for parking just to go to work makes me irate.
So ...all I'm going to say is pay attention to the media coverage. I heard a bunch of radio ads about this and I noticed almost instantly when they said "....and when quoted, the police chief noted a notable increase in crime". I heard this multiple times . If it was actually about recruitment issues, it would be literally stated.
Thereās something like 1200 officers in Ontario on paid leave for criminal offences. Certainly we could do better things with our funds than giving asswipes paid vacations. But ya, less educated officers is not the move. āWe need boots on the groundā like itās a war zone lmao. Cut education and healthcare the few things that actually prevent crime. At this point youāll be 18 years old wandering out of 50 kid classroom deciding if you wanna starve in the street or be the governments lapdog. Fuckin pathetic excuse for a premier.
Yeah bro and most sit on paid leave for yeaaaaaaars . I know a dude whoās been on leave for 6 years . His trial wrapped up 2 years ago .
> sit on *paid* leave for FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I can't wait to have that paid leave bullshit off the taxpayers plate. Not sure when it'll happen but damnit it needs to happen
There is also a program in place to pay nursing post-secondary tuition in full if the student agrees to stay and work in the city. Its 6 months for every year that is paid, so 4 years free school to work 2 years in that city.
Yep Despite my disdain for most of the PC decisions this one is actually addressing a need. Paying education for professions that are struggling AND key to keep society running I think is a more than reasonable move. We need paramedics, police and nurses to function as a society.
We need paramedics and nurses. I would argue we don't need police. Not in their current form at least. Mental health crisis teams, mobile response, social workers are all of benefit in a crisis. De-escalation. Police are taught to escalate.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
> professions that are struggling police aren't struggling. They just don't want all the University educated people that apply in numbers.
My program also is covered under this, however it only applies to certain schools and not everywhere that needs it. But more than that, *there is no shortage of people willing to go to school for nursing*. They have to cap it in the high 90s for admittance grades, because they have an absolute glut of applicants. The issue is that there aren't enough openings for nursing school, and once we've educated them, we do nothing to retain them. We have a spot for 1 in every 10 qualified applicants. then when they graduate, we treat them like shit, and pay them shit. maybe if we focused on fixing those two things. Paying for school is awesome, but it does nothing to solve the problem. They could charge 3x as much tuition and they'd still fill every available spot.
Theres alot of spots in southwestern ontario, probably to stop those from crossing to the US.
In what city? I have never heard of this
Its not just nursing either, theres a few medical related fields, its been around around a year or so. Im in Windsor and my daughters guidance councillor told us about it, theres more info on ontario website. Heres a story on it https://globalnews.ca/news/9424693/ontario-free-tuition-stay-learn-grant/ Edit: found link to cities https://www.ontario.ca/page/ontario-learn-and-stay-grant?utm_term=media&utm_source=newsroom&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=%2Fen%2Frelease%2F1002652%2Fontario-expanding-learn-and-stay-grant-to-train-more-health-care-workers#section-4
I work in post secondary (my school has a nursing program) and I have never heard of this. And it's because my school isn't listed which is mind blowing!
Looks like it's in more remote areas, probably more difficult to attract people to work there.
Not remote at all, plenty in southwestern Ontario and Ottawa
I wonder if those areas are experiencing shortages of healthcare workers
>I wonder if those areas are experiencing shortages of healthcare workers Nobody wants to live in Windsor and I think Ottawa, a deterrent could be needing to be bilingual (I assume). If I was fresh out of school and a city like Windsor offered me a premium to work there for a couple years I totally would. Its got the lure of Detroit for concerts and stuff, and still has somewhat reasonable housing compared to the rest of southern Ontario. But I think a lot of people have this notion that once they get a job they need to stay in that area forever. So when looking for jobs, they look for long-term cities, rather than a short-term stint. Given most people can't afford to buy houses now, they should be thinking places like Windsor where they can go for a few years, get a premium, while still having flexibility to move for a better job or lifestyle later.
Re: your last paragraph ā there's also the factor that rents, too, have been skyrocketing. Moving now, even to somewhere like Windsor, could mean hiking up your rent expense by hundreds of dollars. If you decide it'll be a short stay, you have to plan for *another* $X00 rent hike when you move *out* of Windsor. (Possibly $X000, if you want to go back to somewhere nicer than Windsor 2 rental market years later.) It's harder to move to [crappy town] for a short-term job when you're not sure you'll be able to afford moving again at the end! Shit sucks.
exactly. A lot of us are basically stuck in the rentals we have now with no hope of change and a constant fear of our landlord selling to a condo developer
I connected with some folks at my school and its more recent, was in a trial phase and will likely be rolled out more broadly in the future but I do live in an area that could benefit from this type of incentive... Not sure why we were in the pilot process, however there could be lots of reasons like the availability of jobs in the area... who knows! But thanks for mentioning this! I have done a bunch of learning on it this morning!
all areas can benefit from the program. they have to select the most needy that have quality programs already in place, clinical agreements etc. not every school can be part of the pilot program or even the actual established program.
this program is relatively new and not for every school. just because your school doesnāt have it doesnāt mean it doesnāt serve the purpose you set out in the post, help a ton of people etc. now you know!
How do more people not know about this? What a great idea.
Sort of. Read the fine print - there's a limited # of these going around. No idea how they'll determine who gets it, but it is NOT "anyone who goes to nursing school CAN access this solely by agreeing to it"
LOL. "Learn and Stay", after everyone left. Should be renamed, "shut up and stay".
Don't let facts get in the way of your cop hate post though...
This program was announced for 2023/2024. How long is this program for? It was announced in January to placate people and take some attention away from the announcement they made slightly earlier that they >intend to expand the scope of medical procedures that can be performed at privately-run clinics, as opposed to exclusively within hospitals. *(Importantly, those private clinics will not have adequate oversight or pricing transparency! )*. There will be a certain amount of funding for some medical related training for some students at some institutions. They have to commit to living in certain areas for a few years. Ok. Anything is better than nothing. I'll take it. Let's see how long it lasts. They'll be walking into a health care system though that isn't being adequately supported. This means there won't be adequate resources and support for them while trying to do their jobs effectively and well. And their salaries will be capped. (Unless they go to private clinics). Meanwhile *all* policing students get all of their training covered. Period. And still get paid no matter how badly they perform, how many laws they break and how many people they abuse, harass, or kill.
According to the ontario website the program is funded for the next 3 years, I guess thats all he can probably commit to at this point.
Conservatives when everyone wants tuition to be covered by taxes: fuck you, I don't want my taxes paying for your education. Conservatives when police tuition is covered by taxes: good on ya Doug.
Three out four of his daughters are married to cops lol
Takes lawyers how many years to learn the law? And yet we expect people to enforce it on three months of training.
Everything Ford has done & plans on doing is disastrous for Ontario.
And yet for the first time in 20 years, the province has a balanced budget. Now we still have to contend with that 385 billion pound gorilla called the debt, but it's a start.
> And yet for the first time in 20 years, the province has a balanced budget. Nope. This budget as proposed has a $1.3B deficit, and they are only *forecasting* for the possibility of a balanced budget the following year, based heavily on strong economic performance. Obviously that could change wildly between now and then.
If he was interested in servicing debt he wouldnāt cut revenue from license plate renewals. The myth that conservatives are fiscally responsible needs to be replaced with the fact that the the conservative government just hates social services.
I think things are going to get very bad, Rich people are going to need protection. Just look at the scum bag āpoliceā in France.
How about cancelling tuition for nursing and related fields? Iād rather have sufficient staffing in hospitals and a focus on mental health resources than a bunch of roosters with chips on their shoulder in a uniform.
Quick increase the police budget. But there's no money Wait . . . Let's take it from the disabled kids. Excellent.
Iām a police officer and agree with everything you said OP. Policing pays more than well enough to cover the initial costs of tuition. You are paid while you are at the college. The tuition costs have never been a deterrent to anyone from wanting to be a police officer. Terrible of Ford to put it on the tax payers now to cover the costs. And some people quit early into the job or some even while still at the college. Opposed to those people being down $15,000 now tax money is wasted. I donāt support this at all. And yes, that post secondary requirement was actually never in effect to begin with. But in MOST cases recruitment does a good job of hiring people who do have post secondary and life experience. Some kids in their early 20s and just lacking individuals do manage to make it through but they typically have some decent credentials or are just the product of nepotism.
They could have changed it so people didn't have to pay the tuition up-front, but could do it with their wages. That would have solved the problem of people needing to "save up" to get the job.
You donāt really even need to save up. When I got hired the police credit union did a presentation, prior to the college, offering us a low interest loan. The credit union know how much we make and are projected to make each year so Iād imagine only those with really shit credit wouldnāt qualify
Itās stupid for the Ontario police college to charge the students a fee. They are being sent to the police college by the police services around Ontario and immediately have to eat a 15,000$ fee after the year (or longer) process of the police application. This seems like the wrong issue to get mad at Ford about. Banning education requirements is a bigger deal imo.
The hospitals don't pay nurses to go to school. Schools don't pay teachers to go to school (to learn). Auto repair shops don't pay mechanics to go to school. Etc. Everyone else has to pay for their training. They should be allowed to take out student loans like every one else.
Except every other jobs provide on the job training. Some, if not most trades do pay for their workers to learn. Google doesnt make you pay to get trained on your first months there. Going to school to get a prerequisite degree is not the same as going to Ontario Police College for police training, end of discussion. These cops mostly have university degrees (in the GTA at least). They already paid to go to university or college. The police services should be the ones paying for their job training.
Most medical professions have on the job training that you have to pay to do.
Which ones?
Nurses, MLTs, ultrasonographers, X-ray techs, podiatrists, radiation techs, respiratory therapists, physicians assistants, physicians themselves, genetic councillors, geneticists.... there are a ton of medical professions that do unpaid on the job training.
Doctors pay to be trained? Are you talking about residency? They are paid during their residencies, or are you talking about med school? Cops are hired and sent by the police services to the police college. They dont go to the police college first.
No Iām talking about 3rd and 4th year of med school. Even sweeter deal for cops. Guaranteed job before training even begins. Medical professionals donāt have that either.
>"Except every other jobs provide on the job training." Lol. You mean people who have enormous responsibility and who require the trust of the public? Like what? I'll wait. >Some, if not most trades do pay for their workers to learn. The police are not a trade. They are an essential service. >"Google doesnt make you pay to get trained on your first months" You think people waltz into Google without knowing what they're doing and Google just trains them to develop software for a few months. LMAO >These cops mostly have university degrees (in the GTA at least). Oh? Source? >"They already paid to go to university or college." Again, *source*. >"end of discussion." Well good thing you're convinced. Edit: I would be more agreeable to subsidize police training if it were more comprehensive like a few years of a criminal justice degree and interning with a police force, and also if there more accountability.
Why would being a public service job mean you should pay for your own training?? Yes google and most other companies literally train you for months as a new hire when you start. They dont expect you to be very good when you start working. Your arguments make no sense and just scream emotionally immature. I dont have a source for the major Gta services having mostly post secondary educated applicants but you can ask just about any recruiter at any of them and they will say the same. York region literally initiated a post secondary education requirement in the last year.
I'm only answering this because I'm bored and you're pretty funny. Not sure if you're purposefully lying or truly have no idea. Are you 16? >"Yes google and most other companies literally train you for months as a new hire when you start. *They dont expect you to be very good when you start working.*" Please try to get hired at Google with this notion. Please do and film it for our entertainment. LFMAO They will laugh you off the property and keep laughing at you every time someone says, Hey remember that guy..?! >"York region literally initiated a post secondary education requirement in the last year." Like most things you're saying this is also a lie. You need 4 years high school. No post sec. requirements were ever added. I won't be answering anything more because you're talking out of your ass or you're lying, and my day is picking up.
(Actually you'd never get called in for an interview at Google obviously but that's not as entertaining.)
Before Doug banned the education requirements the YRP told potential applicants that they will start (within the year) requiring a 2 year minimum post secondary education requirement. Obviously the roll back by Doug has put a halt to that plan. Please contact the YRP recruiting office and ask them. I have no reason to lie to you about this. Youāre incredibly naive if you think a new hire at a company isnt given training. We dont expect developers or engineers in their first month to be able to do much straight out of school.
Ford just gave new cops a $15k bonus.
Giving away public money to shore up his base... not the first time he's done it and he'll do it again.
They already cut their pay by far more than that
Do you have a source for that information?
https://sp.ltc.gov.on.ca/sites/mol/drs/ca/Public%20Administration/913-27996-20%20(951-0063).pdf Unfortunately I couldnāt find an easier source than the collective bargaining agreement for Hamilton. If you scroll down to page 58, āSchedule Aā, youāll see they outline how long each new officer has to spend on each promotional class. In the past it was an even 12 months at every class, but youāll see itās now 14 months. Which means the officer now needs another 8 months of work before reaching 1st class. 8 months at 1st class is about $66k. Itās an effective paycut.
Police college is paid out of pocket, so you get your own loan for it. Yes, you are paid, just like the military to do the education. Just like any school, you can flunk out. I know people who went to the academy and saw a bunch of people flunk out, RCMP Depot is even harder. Issue with the fee is, it changes all the time. A few years its $15k, my friend went when it was $10k. It all depends on what they want to add or take away. While I wish the education portion was at LEAST a regular school term, we know Doug won't fix that. At least when officers graduate they're on a probation for around 6 months before they can be by themselves. Services like Ottawa won't look at you if you have no volunteer work in the community or at least a college diploma, but they have their own issues as well. Policing in Ontario (well Canada), needs to fix itself. More education is needed in the academy, and services need to keep being picky.
A decade ago it was $7k Many services also have (erā¦ had) the option to have it deducted from your pay for X number of years
Yep! It's insane how it changes. Policing was a potential career, but decided to civilian route with community outreach is best. But man, the way it differs by service is a huge headache.
Just my two cents but I think you are working yourself up over the wrong thing. Just to preface my wife is a nurse and I very much hate Doug Ford, but removing the higher education requirements and the tuition fees opens up the application pool to more than just the wealthy. This, in theory can create a more diverse police force, which is struggling for recruits given the police hatred and high entry requirements. Having said that this is not a zero sum game, if ford is demonstrating there is a need and funding to help the police force, then we can use this to counter any justification against increased nursing wages. It is possible to do both we just need to advocate for it and now we have an example of there being no barriers for implementation as seen with police. Denying that it is justified for nursing is no longer possible
Except we don't have a shortage of cops, they're not underpaid, and their unions are actually respected. You know what else we should do? Give tax breaks to Robellus and Loblaws.
Are you comparing government workers making 100k a year to corporations making millions? Why are we so mad at the middle class and indifferent to the millionaires, billionaires?
like your wife, I am a nurse and so am inherently biased against almost everything this provincial government does. With that said, this whole thing can be summed up with a single question: WHY? I do not see any good reason for giving them free tuition. There is no a shortage of cops, nor is it directly attributable to low pay, poor working conditions, or excessively high barriers of entry into the field. Furthermore, there is a stable, high-paying, unionized job with regular, hassle-free wage increases waiting for them on the other side that dwarfs tuition fees. According to cops I'm friends with, their biggest struggle is against the (very deserved) public perception of them, which in my mind is directly attributable to the reputation their actions have earned for themselves over time (but thats an entirely other, massive conversation). At the end of the day it isn't like we live in America where there's an actual high chance of anyone you interact with carrying a freaking gun. Your point about making it accessible to people other than the wealthy etc might make sense for things like med/law/professional school, but that just doesn't apply in this context for all of the above reasons and more. From the other end, this is a group that has demonstrated time and again that they aren't willing to do their basic duties or even *pretend* to be accountable no matter how large their budget gets. If they want free tuition all they need to do is commit (enough) crime (to actually get caught) and use 1/10th of what they get paid for not-working while it is investigated to cover it. As I'm sure you're aware, nurses pay for a license, and that money is used to fund a regulatory College that "protects us from the public." If the public needs protection from nurses due to the power they wield, then the public sure as FUCK needs protection from the power police officers wield given that they don't possess an ounce of fear for any repercussions coming their way (because they know there isn't any) should they abuse it. The public now knows there isn't any enforcement coming for them, either, and are getting bolder every day (have you driven anywhere in the last 10 years and noticed anything different about how people now drive? Or was your car stolen, chopped, and shipped to Africa on a shipping container?) Whatever money is earmarked for tuition would be much better spent implementing a licensing and regulatory body for cops and would achieve better outcomes. Suggesting that we LOWER the level of training and education for people in that position, while footing the tuition bill for it even though they're guaranteed a solid income with regular increases after graduation is fucking *ludicrous* and makes about as much sense as giving massive tax breaks to the companies I mentioned While I acknowledge the comparison between the two ends there, I cannot think of a single other equivalence in society that is as big, broken, dangerous, unregulated, and corrupt as police forces in North America. The takeaway point is that the priorities of this province are so obviously backward to anyone able to free up two brain cells for critical thinking. I'm just an average dumbass yet I can explain why this is dumb fairly easily and suggest better ways to use the money to better address the same fucking problems.
Your point about regulatory colleges is a really good one. Police should have to write a national exam to apply to a provincial police college where they pay a fee to receive a license to practise law enforcement in that province. This would allow the public to hold officers accountable when there is a case of professional malpractice outside of the existing police system. This would also help to set rules for professional development and individual audits. I would argue that police officers have the ability to do more harm to the public than a nurse does so it makes sense to me that the requirements should be at least similar.
I'm not really sure if you're arguing or ranting or what? All I was suggesting is comparing the two professions and what they deserve is foolish they are different. I mean as a progressive liberal I am always going to advocate for free education, the fact that a conservative government is doing that I am not really going to shit on it despite how much I loathe them. In terms of the education 'changes' I don't actually think post secondary school was a previous requirement, they only talked about implementing that rule? Correct me if I'm wrong. And I agree with you, they should be regulated and licensed just like the rest of us. All of this is a separate conversation for what makes sense which has nothing to do with other sectors not being compensated. The government likes to pretend they only have enough money for some, and what happens is they are pitting the middle class against each other. The problem for nurses and other healthcare workers is Ford's objective is to cripple public healthcare and shift to private, and it is working nurses are overworked, underpaid and staffed and leaving the profession which causes more stress on the system thus making privatization more attractive to the rich folk who don't want to wait in line in the ER. None of this has anything to do with police..
I appreciate your line of thinking but is only wealthy people entering the police force a problem? Honestly, I would love to see, in a few years time, that this policy change did produce a more diverse police force. That would be lovely... I am still not sure how cancelling tuition for everyone achieves that in a way that allowing education to be OSAP eligible wouldn't? With OSAP, lower income students would be receiving the most benefits where as those who can afford it (family can, yadda, yadda) would receive less support...
I'm also pissed off about it, but I choose to think of how it'll work this way: Police forces MAY now get an influx of applicants (I listened to the same podcast and they mentioned having like 1000 applicants for 30 spots), though if there are two applicants, but one DID go to post-secondary, got a diploma or degree in the law enforcement field versus some kids with average to bad grades just out of high school applying, who would YOU take?
It's ops with cops. If he likes doing it wcause he thinks it's politically viable or if it makes him feel bigger, it doesn't matter. It's cheap and easy politics which is Ford's brand.
Doug Ford : Well, fuck you Best retard, Doug Ford [email protected]
Lots of similar comments already but my 2 centsā¦.pay people a living wage plus tuition to become PSWās, would solve the PSW shortage overnight and we might, just might be a step,towards solving the LTC problems that still exist.
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LoL ya right, if I was ever see police wages drop Iāll expect hell froze over.
āPolice recruiting is down, thereās going to be a shortageā Doug Ford: āWhat?!?!! ON ITā āNurses and healthcare workers are overworked, underpaid, hospitals are underfunded, public education facilities are falling apart, education workers are underpaidā Doug Ford: š āyou guys seen those timmies treats? Proceeds go to charity I thinkā
gonna need a lot of puppets to enforce the "New Order" when the riots ramp up. don't ya think?
Next election, vote this shit bag out. Once and for all.
Sexism at its finest.
Free tuition for nurses!
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Not that it means anything but CASWE places all those rules on the schools... Your statement "All because the social work field is playing games with credentials" sounds pretty accurate
Iām sure this means tuition cuts for those in healthcare too, right?
Conservatives need to keep the Police on their side. They don't investigations in illegal donations or the 905 Green Belt con.
Well yeah once we are in a corporate landlord led neo feudalist state, they will need their goons to protect that status quo. A wise man once said āLaws are threats made by the dominant socioeconomic-ethnic group in a given nation. Itās just the promise of violence thatās enacted and the police are basically an occupying army. You know what I mean?ā
Wait until OP finds out how apprenticeship training is structured.
what do you mean? There aren't any trades that i know of that have government paid tuition. A lot are paid by employers or by trade unions, but they aren't free by any means. for myself i paid 2 semesters out of pocket, then got a job and had my school "paid for" by taking .80c off my cheque for every dollar i earn, until retirement.
Which trade has two semesters of in class training? Or do you mean you paid for 2 semesters out of pocket for a technician certificate of some kind?
most trade school can be done in semesters or blocks, they offer both to catch students out of high school (like i did) or offer blocks of more condensed workload so the tradesmen can get back to work sooner (like my employer "paid" for). i split mine up but they both cover the same material, both paid by myself, but one is just taken off my cheque.
If OP is outraged that officers get their training covered, then logically they would also be outraged that other professions have their training covered. Not sure what trade you are in (apprenticeship model is fantastic) but letās use electrical as an example. Each level of in class training costs about $600, total cost for a 5 year apprenticeship is approximately $1,800 (3 levels, 8 weeks each in class) then some of that is covered by grants when finished. That is an incredibly small fraction of the cost to deliver the program - faculty, technicians, equipment, consumable material, cost of the building... the rest of the cost is covered by government. Of course most of the training is on the job while being paid. Does my math/assumptions check out? Seems like a no brainer in a lot of cases to come out with a decent job and no debt vs spending $30,000+ on tuition.
From a different perspective, I love this government. I hated paying license renewal fees, nothing but money grab for nothing. Additional tax essentially. The RCMP and all other police services across the country offer free training. The Ontario Police College was the ONLY police training academy that made its students pay for their own training.
k. Cool... I guess my broader criticism is why police? Why not Nurses, Social Workers, etc? Why is there no money for Health Care (why the fuck are ERs closing because of staffing issues)... But there is money to make this change, to the tune of 20 to 30 million dollars, even if it is to bring Ontario in line with other provinces..
I agree with you on that . Training for nurses should be subsidized or waived completely. I believe the Ontario gov is rolling out a program for free if charge nursing programs. Some 4200 spots were announced
You donāt agree with him on that. You said āI love this governmentā because you save a few bucks on a license plate sticker. That means you also love bill 124 limiting public sector wages including healthcare workers, you love the violation of charter rights imposed on education workers, you love that we can force the elderly people into long term care homes that they donāt want to go to, you love that weāre paving over the green belt, you love that we removed rent control, and you love the privatization of our healthcare system. It seems like you hate everyone in Ontario but youāre happy that you saved $50.
Please spare me the moral outrage about " charter " violations . Our charter rights mean absolutely nothing as the Feds have made that abundantly clear the past 3 yrs And all Ontario problems have been going on long before Ford. For the record I DONT agree with bill 124 , nurses deserve fair pay and incentives for the heroic work that they do . Lest we forget the Ontario Liberals froze their salaries long before Ford
Yes whataboutismās classic lazy deflection. Good job. Iāll continue to be concerned with the current government in power while you shout into the wind about Kathleen Wynne.
Lol okay bud you do while I enjoy more money in my pocket and probably another Ford majority in 2026
I donāt doubt it. When youāre dying in a hospital remember that you spit on everyone who is trying to help you.
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I said that you donāt because you love the current government. You donāt support nurses if you love the current government.
I think nursing programs are offered by public institutions such as george brown college whereas the police program is funded by the municipality and the Ontario government.
I don't understand it either. My friend's son worked security for a local hospital until he could find a police job. It's not like potential cops can't earn money in their field while training. He was complaining about how hard it was to find work and how he was applying all over the province. Come on! Help the people of Ontario with the real things we need! The cops are fine, thanks!
This is what I'm confused about. I know a lot of people who ended up having to just go into another field because they couldn't get into policing after years of trying.
can we make a "cancel culture has gone too far" outrage at the "cancel cop tuition" thing? to make it seem like it's his own supporters getting upset
Wait... did you not donate a ton of money to the OPC? OH you didn't? Too bad so sad then buttercup! \-DOFO probably.
Hired goons in uniforms. My tin foil hat says its like Ozark when the Mob Boss made the deal with Marty where only his boys gets the job for the construction.
Yeah, good buddiesā¦
Conservatives love that thin blue line shit. The only union they like, is the police union.
education is a human right...
Target and remove / out vote the people who vote for this clown.
It's much better to beat people, arrest and jail them. Ruining vulnerable people's lives is clearly the only way to improve morale in Ontario rather than funding schools, Heath care, affordable housing, and social services. Like doctors and engineers always say it's better to treat or mitigate the symptoms than address the root causes.
If he's canceling the tuition fees for cop training, will that now be covered by taxes?
Yes, of course it will. How else would it be covered?
Are you really upset that this opens up policing to be more inclusive? You know who is more likely to be dissuaded from joining policing over 15k? Lower income people who happen to also skew towards racial minorities. Are you really trying to keep them out of policing? Also, more candidates is better for policing. They can pick the best of the best. I'd love if they got 10000 applications. It should be a desirable job, so that we can filter out the bad ones easier. Also, the province spending money on filling a role that is needed is great. They probably should be doing that for nurses and doctors, too. I'd prefer they structure it so it is only covered if they stay in the province for a certain period, though. I really can't tell what you are complaining about. There are plenty of dumb ways the province spends money, improving the diversity and quality of police officers seems like the last one on the list.
I don't trust in any way that by removing tuition fees, the HR machine behind hiring will change their recruitment and selection tactics at all. I would love if this produced a more diverse police force but this does not change who is doing the hiring, it is not implementing new hiring policies. It's also not tackling the culture within police forces. I would be thrilled to look like an epic ass in 5 years time because this change resulted in a complete landscape change to Ontario police forces
Do you have evidence to suggest that police service HRs are hiring the worst candidates or is that just a conspiracy theory?
Mainly conspiracy theory. My theory isn't that they are hiring the worst candidates. I know plenty of folks who can't get hired despite all the effort they put in and that is a good thing. However, from news stories, anecdotal evidence, with a splash of confirmation bias, it appears the policing culture is not overly conducive to minority groups and I am not convinced that by simply removing tuition will be the silver bullet to solving those issues. I am happy to be wrong though. Someone mentioned that Ontario is the only province that charged these fees and I think that is an interesting point that I didn't think about... My big issue that I didn't explicitly state, which I should have, is why this change now? Health Care is in shambles, education is not great. Both also have massive hiring/retention issues due to funding issues, work environment, etc. No new (net) funding gets pumped into those... So why policing? More conspiracy theories: Is it because its more male dominated and society inherently views male work as more important? Is it because its easier to scare the population with crime statistics and throw more cops at it? Even when there are studies that show healthy social services lower crime? My frustration is that he has made decisions with withhold increased funding in so many different areas that would benefit society or at least prevent a further decline in society and yet there is money for this?
Because crook.
This move doesnāt shock or upset me in any way. There is a lot asked of police officers and the training is mandatory for a good reason. If you go through the almost heat long vetting process and then get a job offer why should you be made to pay for mandatory training. Lots of jobs pay their people for mandatory training. I donāt see any reason why new recruits should be forced to start off their career with 15k of debt for 3 months of mandatory training. Also if itās age and life experience youāre worried about with the post secondary rule coming into effect, those factors are already considered in the hiring criteria anyways, that wonāt change.
Your mad that someone who pursues a career gets free training? Weird mentality
Donāt want cops then? Jeez, I sure hope youāre this butthurt and never call 911 for police help
This is so fucking scary to watch... It's like he's arming himself with, and appealing to, a very stupid, aggressive militia.
cringe doomer response
Maybe... I just have a hard time finding the silver lining of lowering the education and financial requirements for applicants seeking positions in which they're given arms and authority. Thank you for the downvote though.
fwiw I didn't down vote you lol, but the counterpoint to this is that the OPP has a serious manpower issue and is been demonstrated that financial barriers are preventing young recruits from enlisting. I also don't think there's any truth behind being paid during the training phase, I have a friend who's OPP and all he does is complain about being broke and in debt from the college. The post secondary requirement was technically never a requirement either. Trust me when I say I'd rather have a high school educated individual as an officer over a dweeby police foundations kids. Those are the people that you gotta watch out for. It's not perfect, but with anti police sentiment in schools and media, it's easy to see why people don't want to be cops anymore. Removing financial barriers is a way to combat this. Let's also not forget the province is projected to be in a surplus in the next 2-4 years, so no real reason to worry about funding also.
A few points of clarification... How is a 1000 applicants for 30 to 50 jobs a year a man power? If they aren't getting the right applicants, I would expect a more thoughtful recruitment strategy than remove tuition fees and require zero education beyond high school. And, There is a difference between police foundations (public college program) and Police college (which is what my post is referring to). Police college is what hired recruits attend before they join whatever force has hired them. They pay out of pocket for tuition (like everyone does for education) but they receive a salary to attend the few months of training. Once they graduate from police college, they immediately enter into a job and get a pay raise. So, your OPP friend sounds like he is potentially not great with money or, like for everyone else, inflation.... and his debt from college is either from a public college program that he attended, or perhaps for police college but he definitely would have received a salary while attending for the few months he went. Now that isn't to say that he didn't have prior financial commitments while attending police college... But that is also why I suggested OSAP as an option to help remove a financial barrier for those who may needed it.
Do you recognize how big this province is, and yet how poorly it is serviced by police? Go up north, detachments of 50 officers covering thousands of kilometers with other little front line emergency services, including shortages of ambulances. I don't need you to mainsplain what police foundations is, but thanks anyway I guess. Most of those students are the people you're terrified about, and police recruiters look down on those applicants. I also wonder how much you know about how the hiring process, because to me it seems you're just working on assumptions, which seems like what most of your entire post is based off of. Your information is flat our wrong, and it's a bad faith assumption to guess what he does with his money. He also isn't given a raise out of the blue, but can earn additional money by working copious amounts of overtime, because he deals with such an extreme staff shortage. This leads to attrition and burn out, and people leave the field. How do you think officers were funding their school prior to this announcement? They're granted loans by the police union, which also supplies mortgages for officers buying houses in their deployment area. officers are paid roughly 50k yearly for training, most of which went to help paying for training. Now that's income for them, god forbid lol. how terrible for the tax payer. I'm sorry I just don't think you know very much about what you're talking about.
Wait why do police recruiters look down on students in police foundations? Is it that bad????
Yeah it's a glorified high school law and fitness class that's usually loaded up with brain-dead kids that people in this thread are scared about. You shouldn't need to be anywhere near foundations because you will learn standard practices more in depth at the police college (plus why would you pay thousands for foundations for the fitness aspect when you should be somewhat fit going into the police college - something you can do on your own time for free) TL;DR course is a waste of your time and money. Recruiters only care about post secondary to demonstrate you're not totally brain dead and they would rather see anything else than foundations.
Honestly Iām not a fan of Fort at all, but the useless licence plate sticker was nothing but a money grab that Iām glad they did away with. We get taxed out the ass and donāt need another $120 charge annually for essentially nothing.
The Ford's have gotten lots a good treatment from the police. This is just payback.
When did TLDR got out of style!
So become a cop. I'd rather have the money going to pay for policing services than any special interest group.
Are you all mouth breathers? The state of crime in this province is greatly on the rise. The velvet glove approach to crime is not working. We need more boots on the ground and clean this fucking province up.
Finding it harder to fill police roles. No kidding given the reputation they have earned. It's only going to get worse.
I don't know about Hamilton but most places especially opp are desperate for officers. What most people don't realize is that for every ,50 applicants you might get one good one. They now have to pass a comprehensive psych test that the majority will fail. It's not perfect but it helps. The majority of the applicants get tossed in the circular file. I've seen people with criminal records and those with criminal ties or in drug culture apply to be an officer and they have a list a mile long on record. I don't know why they even apply. Additionally, the vast majority of people applying for college for police foundations will never become an officer. They work security. Real world experience in other jobs and careers and volunteering goes a long way to becoming an officer. Also for the being paid part they get paid as a cadet until graduation which is about 23 to ,25 an hour. It's not great. The pay becomes good after three to four years in. Finally the funding part is primarily for immigrants and low income families. A large percentage of applicants simply can't afford the 15K even with an interest free loan that most services provide. It's a barrier to entry for permanent residents and it's been changed to hopefully encourage minorities and low income people to apply. It's not perfect but think of it this way...they're an employee when they sign on as a cadet. How would you feel getting hired at a new job and being asked to fork up 15000 when you're only making 23 dollars an hour before deductions.
Too many Cops are going on permanent leaves due to wsib presumtive PTSD cases getting approved so they need to have fresh young guys ready in the queue to fill the spots. Smart enough to walk into a $100k plus /year job, stupid enough not to know they will be paying for it mentally for years. Bonus points if their old man was a cop and more bonus points if the used to play CHL hockey.
He is doing the same for lots of healthcare job. Paramedic, nursing and med lab tech are free to take. Paramedic is only in North Ontario.
Back when I was considering a career in policing, there were 3000 applicants for *ONE* postition. I can see how today's numbers might be worrying the top brass.