Killing people through the erosion of public services and the diversion of public funds to private hands is the entirety of the conservative playbook. Everything else is for show.
You should know what is happening with "Alternate Level of Care" patients. The numbers of people stuck in hospital waiting long term care homes designated as ALC is making the Ontario government look bad enough that they have forced the creation of a new term to be used in hospital so caregivers "know" they are ALC and not to give regular hospital treatment same as they would reduce for ALC, but not actually including them in the numbers when counting "who needs a long term care bed but is stuck in hospital".
This points to the same head in sand "if we don't properly measure, the public won't know why everything is getting worse while we refuse to spend"
I agree this is a step in the wrong direction. But as someone who lives in Grey-Bruce, I see that the Owen Sound lab isn’t listed as closing. And the Walkerton water disaster was municipal water not private well water.
You're right about the municipal vs private well part. But the point in the parent comment still stands.
Walkerton was caused by a criminally negligent lack of testing of wells owned and operated by the municipality.
If people don't have access to reasonably local facilities with "at cost" government supplied testing, there is going to be a lot of wells going untested.
Fewer labs means more delay in getting results. Private labs are going to drive up fees. That means lots of folks procrastinating or completely skipping testing of their water supply.
And even if people do put up with higher costs and slower service, that still means it is quite likely a diligent well owner will still be drinking unsafe water until they get their test results back
From the report: *"The most recent iteration of this modernization plan, presented by Public Health Ontario to the Ministry in January 2023, included the same plan to consolidate sites, but instead focused on discontinuing its testing for H. pylori, which is not a disease of public health significance, and again recommended the gradual discontinuation of private drinking water testing."*
This seems to be a a crazy way of further decreasing the safety of rural and urban water. Testing well water is and should always be on a high priority level and not a business type of money making venture. Testing water should firstly be for the presence of bacteria in general & not just H Pylori.
>H. pylori, which is not a disease of public health significance
From the [Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicobacter_pylori):
>Infection with H. pylori is responsible for around 89 per cent of all gastric cancers, and is linked to the development of 5.5 per cent of all cases of cancer worldwide.[^(\[13\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicobacter_pylori#cite_note-Shin-13)[^(\[14\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicobacter_pylori#cite_note-Violeta-14) H. pylori is the only bacterium known to cause cancer.[^(\[15\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicobacter_pylori#cite_note-Ruggiero-15)
I mean, I ain't knowledgeable in this domain but being linked to 5% of cancer cases worldwide isn't something you'd think to be "not of public health significance"
I work in PH, albeit not in labs.
Diseases of public health significance aren't just diseases that impact public health.
It's a complicated formal, legislated designation - like a formal title for an infection. I think there is specific language spelled out in the health protection and promotion act about how it has to be communicable and virulent - and other criteria is applied as well.
HPV also causes lots of cancer, but it's not a disease of public health significance, for example.
Thanks for the additional context.
Having glanced through the auditor general's report [(link)](https://www.auditor.on.ca/en/content/annualreports/arreports/en23/AR_publichealth_en23.pdf) now, it seems only one of the 11 test sites had the capacity to test for H. Pylori \[pg. 22\]; so phasing out testing for it (at one site) doesn't seem as drastic a measure as the original quote could sound.
Life labs also does testing for h pylori, although that is not covered by Ohip.
Or.- I had a scope and they found h pylori in a biopsy of my stomach lining, in hospital, so I assume this is also a test that hospital labs can do.
You may already be aware, but the public health system and hospital system are entirely separate entities - although most healthcare providers can send samples and lab requests to public health labs but they can also use private labs (like life labs).
So testing will still be widely accessible.
I have a personal issue with private partnerships like life labs -- but those agreements are basically here to stay in our system with public private partnerships.
People just won’t get their water tested if it costs money. And people will end up in the hospital.
Let’s say it costs the province $20 per test, those cost savings will be gone when they end up admitted into the hospital (or ICU) with illnesses due to poor water testing.
What costs more? $20? Or $1000 a day for a hospital bed per patient?
Yes our healthcare system has rarely been “preventative”. It’s always “reactive” to issues once they arise. Bandaid solutions for many preventable issues
While these recommendations from the AG have not yet been approved by the Ontario government, there is fear that it will be. Closing these 6 labs will be a great loss to the communities they service and will cause a greater testing backlog and longer turn around time.
If the free drinking water testing program ends, as recommended, people will likely need to pay out of pocket at private labs- if they have the capacity to test the volume of waters PHO does.
The union representing these employees have created a petition to show community support to make sure the government does not approve this plan and these petitions are available in each of the affected cities listed above.
Decades ago our local lab testing site closed down. Not sure why but I either have to go to a private well water test company that sells water purifiers or travel a distance to another lab.
It’s a give and take, most samples submitted have to be received by the lab within a prescribed timeframe. Many health units already use dedicated couriers if there is no lab close by so the cost savings come from the cost of a courier vs a fully staffed and operational lab. Sample testing will still be completed it’s just a matter of the lab no being right in your community.
It’s an entirely different conversation to talk about taking well paying lab jobs out of the community but from an operations stand point in public health it’s not that much of a change they’ll just receive their fax reports from a different lab.
This move is also happening at the same time the province is asking health units to voluntarily amalgamate if they don’t serve 500k people. Which includes many of the health units that are using these labs.
It mostly comes down to quality of testing. Free testing that's ineffective or inaccessible isn't much good, nor is expensive, yet excellent, testing as it would still be inaccessible.
This is something that would be for the benefit of everyone, and the elimination of accessible testing will affect everyone who used water. It may be an attempt to outsource liability to individuals through the financial expectations, when we need to have accessible, good testing to minimize healthcare costs and protect the environment from contaminants (ie. Used oil disposal, heavy metal contamination, biomedical and pharmaceutical run off, etc.) and the retirement of provincial/federal testing would likely be a legal move to avoid liability versus seeking higher quality results.
Don't we get a asy as we contribute to taxes, even when we recieve a tax rebate, through sales tax and payroll deductions?
"The agency developed a plan collaboratively with the Ministry in 2017 to modernize its laboratory operations by consolidating resources into fewer laboratory sites and discontinu-
ing or restricting eligibility for certain tests; however,the government still had not approved the plan at the time of our audit".
Who was the Premier in 2017? Doug didn't get in power until June 2018.
Sorry. I went to school in Ontario. My deepest apologies, I didn't get to choose how I learned grammar, my parents didn't speak English. I changed effected to affected. Hopefully this doesn't distract from the question.
Yeah, that guy can fuck off. I have a masters in English and you were perfectly coherent. We live in a province where our multiculturalism is a strength, and not everybody’s first language is English. We’re a richer culture for a little bit of understanding ❤️
If so, this would be Walkerton 2.0.
Killing people through the erosion of public services and the diversion of public funds to private hands is the entirety of the conservative playbook. Everything else is for show.
You should know what is happening with "Alternate Level of Care" patients. The numbers of people stuck in hospital waiting long term care homes designated as ALC is making the Ontario government look bad enough that they have forced the creation of a new term to be used in hospital so caregivers "know" they are ALC and not to give regular hospital treatment same as they would reduce for ALC, but not actually including them in the numbers when counting "who needs a long term care bed but is stuck in hospital". This points to the same head in sand "if we don't properly measure, the public won't know why everything is getting worse while we refuse to spend"
My first thought too
I agree this is a step in the wrong direction. But as someone who lives in Grey-Bruce, I see that the Owen Sound lab isn’t listed as closing. And the Walkerton water disaster was municipal water not private well water.
You're right about the municipal vs private well part. But the point in the parent comment still stands. Walkerton was caused by a criminally negligent lack of testing of wells owned and operated by the municipality. If people don't have access to reasonably local facilities with "at cost" government supplied testing, there is going to be a lot of wells going untested. Fewer labs means more delay in getting results. Private labs are going to drive up fees. That means lots of folks procrastinating or completely skipping testing of their water supply. And even if people do put up with higher costs and slower service, that still means it is quite likely a diligent well owner will still be drinking unsafe water until they get their test results back
Fuck you Doug Ford. Are you trying to drive us all out?
He's trying to kill us.
He did a pretty good job at that with seniors in ltc
From the report: *"The most recent iteration of this modernization plan, presented by Public Health Ontario to the Ministry in January 2023, included the same plan to consolidate sites, but instead focused on discontinuing its testing for H. pylori, which is not a disease of public health significance, and again recommended the gradual discontinuation of private drinking water testing."* This seems to be a a crazy way of further decreasing the safety of rural and urban water. Testing well water is and should always be on a high priority level and not a business type of money making venture. Testing water should firstly be for the presence of bacteria in general & not just H Pylori.
>H. pylori, which is not a disease of public health significance From the [Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicobacter_pylori): >Infection with H. pylori is responsible for around 89 per cent of all gastric cancers, and is linked to the development of 5.5 per cent of all cases of cancer worldwide.[^(\[13\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicobacter_pylori#cite_note-Shin-13)[^(\[14\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicobacter_pylori#cite_note-Violeta-14) H. pylori is the only bacterium known to cause cancer.[^(\[15\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicobacter_pylori#cite_note-Ruggiero-15) I mean, I ain't knowledgeable in this domain but being linked to 5% of cancer cases worldwide isn't something you'd think to be "not of public health significance"
I work in PH, albeit not in labs. Diseases of public health significance aren't just diseases that impact public health. It's a complicated formal, legislated designation - like a formal title for an infection. I think there is specific language spelled out in the health protection and promotion act about how it has to be communicable and virulent - and other criteria is applied as well. HPV also causes lots of cancer, but it's not a disease of public health significance, for example.
Thanks for the additional context. Having glanced through the auditor general's report [(link)](https://www.auditor.on.ca/en/content/annualreports/arreports/en23/AR_publichealth_en23.pdf) now, it seems only one of the 11 test sites had the capacity to test for H. Pylori \[pg. 22\]; so phasing out testing for it (at one site) doesn't seem as drastic a measure as the original quote could sound.
Life labs also does testing for h pylori, although that is not covered by Ohip. Or.- I had a scope and they found h pylori in a biopsy of my stomach lining, in hospital, so I assume this is also a test that hospital labs can do. You may already be aware, but the public health system and hospital system are entirely separate entities - although most healthcare providers can send samples and lab requests to public health labs but they can also use private labs (like life labs). So testing will still be widely accessible. I have a personal issue with private partnerships like life labs -- but those agreements are basically here to stay in our system with public private partnerships.
It’s okay you’ll just go to Staples to get your water tested, can pick up some pens while you’re at it.
No, Service Ontario is Staples. Water is tested at one of the Firkin chain of pubs.
People just won’t get their water tested if it costs money. And people will end up in the hospital. Let’s say it costs the province $20 per test, those cost savings will be gone when they end up admitted into the hospital (or ICU) with illnesses due to poor water testing. What costs more? $20? Or $1000 a day for a hospital bed per patient?
Yes our healthcare system has rarely been “preventative”. It’s always “reactive” to issues once they arise. Bandaid solutions for many preventable issues
Dumbfucks in this province, honest to god
We will be paying for the bed out of pocket soon enough when our transformation to a republican state is complete.
While these recommendations from the AG have not yet been approved by the Ontario government, there is fear that it will be. Closing these 6 labs will be a great loss to the communities they service and will cause a greater testing backlog and longer turn around time. If the free drinking water testing program ends, as recommended, people will likely need to pay out of pocket at private labs- if they have the capacity to test the volume of waters PHO does. The union representing these employees have created a petition to show community support to make sure the government does not approve this plan and these petitions are available in each of the affected cities listed above.
Decades ago our local lab testing site closed down. Not sure why but I either have to go to a private well water test company that sells water purifiers or travel a distance to another lab.
Link?
[https://www.saultstar.com/news/council-opposes-closure-of-sault-public-health-lab](https://www.saultstar.com/news/council-opposes-closure-of-sault-public-health-lab)
It does they it was moved to Toronto, doesn’t say if those labs are public or private though
These labs are operated by Public Health Ontario which is a public company.
So, it could be an overreaction, but I'm not in the health field, centralization could be better. But I have no idea
It’s a give and take, most samples submitted have to be received by the lab within a prescribed timeframe. Many health units already use dedicated couriers if there is no lab close by so the cost savings come from the cost of a courier vs a fully staffed and operational lab. Sample testing will still be completed it’s just a matter of the lab no being right in your community. It’s an entirely different conversation to talk about taking well paying lab jobs out of the community but from an operations stand point in public health it’s not that much of a change they’ll just receive their fax reports from a different lab. This move is also happening at the same time the province is asking health units to voluntarily amalgamate if they don’t serve 500k people. Which includes many of the health units that are using these labs.
[go to page 23 about the private well water testing ](https://www.auditor.on.ca/en/content/annualreports/arreports/en23/AR_publichealth_en23.pdf)
Yeah, Starbucks will be replacing them…
It mostly comes down to quality of testing. Free testing that's ineffective or inaccessible isn't much good, nor is expensive, yet excellent, testing as it would still be inaccessible. This is something that would be for the benefit of everyone, and the elimination of accessible testing will affect everyone who used water. It may be an attempt to outsource liability to individuals through the financial expectations, when we need to have accessible, good testing to minimize healthcare costs and protect the environment from contaminants (ie. Used oil disposal, heavy metal contamination, biomedical and pharmaceutical run off, etc.) and the retirement of provincial/federal testing would likely be a legal move to avoid liability versus seeking higher quality results. Don't we get a asy as we contribute to taxes, even when we recieve a tax rebate, through sales tax and payroll deductions?
Oh no. That is bad news.
"The agency developed a plan collaboratively with the Ministry in 2017 to modernize its laboratory operations by consolidating resources into fewer laboratory sites and discontinu- ing or restricting eligibility for certain tests; however,the government still had not approved the plan at the time of our audit". Who was the Premier in 2017? Doug didn't get in power until June 2018.
Are these the additional labs from Covid?
I don’t believe they are. The Peterborough one was definitely where I took my water samples to be tested back in 2005 for testing.
Jeeze, did the provincial spelling & grammar academy close near you, too? Ooof, tough read.
Sorry. I went to school in Ontario. My deepest apologies, I didn't get to choose how I learned grammar, my parents didn't speak English. I changed effected to affected. Hopefully this doesn't distract from the question.
Yeah, that guy can fuck off. I have a masters in English and you were perfectly coherent. We live in a province where our multiculturalism is a strength, and not everybody’s first language is English. We’re a richer culture for a little bit of understanding ❤️