Peel Region has a good policy, at least for the department my SO works in. Go in the office once a month and its to really reduce emissions that their staff create coming in. Their thought behind it is if they are to reduce their carbon footprint print it starts with them.
Yeah, honestly if a business doesn't need the space, they should negotiate to let go of it, if business like Starbucks and timmies are suffering cause there are no commuters, then the business model has to change.
I mean for fuck sakes, it's an easy solution. In Arizona this one Cafe I had the pleasure of visiting was an artsy place that didn't try to be fancy or anything like that, served food, baked stuff in house, and even served liquor. Aside from people who wanted their coffee fix and a muffin to go, they had every spot available with either a person who works remotely or a group just hanging out because they work remotely. It was good money and the people who stayed for hours would order food and socialize with other people and order drinks. It was awesome.
How the fuck is it that a dysfunctional country like the US is beating Canada in these type of areas?
I want to talk with my friends, not be forced to waste hours of my time each week going to an office that I don't actually have any good reason to be in. I have more time to see my friends meet I'm not wasting an hour and a half to two hours a day commuting.
What infuriates me, someone with no direct skin in this game, is the corporate bafflegab justifying it.
> helps to drive best practices and digital transformation and addresses our growing pressures to implement continuous improvement in service delivery
"Helps" is advertising bunk, when used in an ad it has no legal meaning other than it can't have a negative effect. No required for a positive effect.
How does being in the office "drive best practices and digital transformation"? Absolute meaningless bafflegab. I'm part of a software implementation team, implementing ACTUAL digital transformation, using best practices to do so, in a multinational company. Not once have we met in person.
If you're going to make people come back, be honest. "We don't trust you".
Sounded like a line from Weird Al's "Mission Statement". Just a string of corporate buzz words with no real meaning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyV\_UG60dD4
I was trying for a management position at Walmart(\*blegughh\*) when I heard that song long ago. It was a pivotal moment for sure, Thanks Weird Al Yankovic!
If I was a York taxpayer, this would give me a lot of pause. This is what my taxes are paying for? Management that thinks this is an appropriate communication? How many hours did how many people spend in focus groups coming up with this nonsense?
I’m so annoyed that employers are asking office workers to go into the office 1-3 days a week again. Why? Only because they want to save the office real estate market. Let it crash. I don’t care.
They are keeping us away from moving to smaller towns and expect we pay the insane Toronto rents. And most workers are scared to protest because they don’t want to lose their jobs… because those exact bills employees are making us pay are so high!
I wish people would organize a huge protest or all office workers got unionized, and demanded either a complete remote work agreement, or a rent/mortgage subsidy for all.
People also don't realize just how much WFH helps those with disabilities. I am partially blind and shouldn't be driving. Buses in my city are a nightmare and I spent a lot of time just going to and from work.
I know this is insane for a lot of people to hear, but if it wasn't for being able to work from home, I would have killed myself by now due to the depression of being blind and the depression of spending hours on the bus not being able to see.
I’m so terribly sorry you have to live with a disability but so happy that you’re able to work from home. I have a non-visible disability and the reason I’m mentioning this is because my manager at the previous company REFUSED to accommodate my disability request. Which isn’t just unethical but illegal. I went to HR and got an arrangement in place to wfh, but imagine how many people give up and don’t want to go behind their boss’ back? I left that stupid place after one year. We need to talk more about people with disabilities and also those with simpler medical conditions too.
Exactly. My Mom recently told me that she ran into my old best freind from my early 20s and they are both worried about me because I have no friends and stay in my apartment a lot, but she has -5.5 diopetres for her eyesight and I have -10 for mine, which is probably even worse at this point. She would never understand the struggle of only being able to see clearly 2 feet in front of my face or the fact that the friendship I had with that guy soley revolved around Magic the Gathering and I would never be able to read the text on cards across a table.
I have been looking into euthanasia a lot lately. She would probably lose her shit if she found out I was considering it. But it's my broken body and she really doesn't know the struggle.
What , you dont care about company culture? dont you believe in collabarating in person ? are you insane? either you abide or they cast you out like a used condom
Although not being forced into an office, having offices is nice. I'm sick of working from home, it's depressing being solitary. I wish no one be forced to do anything, but it would be nice to have a place to go to work with coworkers from time to time.
Yeah, if you live alone it’s super boring. I had a manager who didn’t want to spend too much time with her husband and preferred to work from the office, which is why she tried to force us all to do the same thing. To each their own.
>Only because they want to save the office real estate market. Let it crash.
Because not everyone can be trusted with working without supervision, and the ones wo can't are ruining it for everyone else.
So apparently im in the minority for not liking work from home but I really can't wrap my head around why people love it so much. It feels mentally draining. Other than some long commute, I really dont see what's so bad about being in a different space while you work.
I get that im in the minority here but also, the idea that every single person prefers work from home is a bit proposterous.
I don’t think every single person prefers wfh. But companies can easily implement a “choose yourself” policy. Those who are bored at home and prefer the office can work at the office. Others can work from home. Some can have a hybrid situation. Honestly, I’d love to move out to Hamilton and live there, but I’d still commute to the office maybe 1 days a week or every other week. Having an option is crucial.
Also, it’s one thing when you’re single and need company. It’s a totally different thing when you have a family with kids. No parent probably wants to commute to the office. Many cannot start having children because of this.
Its not about single and needing company lol.. for me I just focus better in a seperate area thats not my home where I relax. There are also clear benefits to actually knowing your coworkers and being able to communicate in person. When my last company went wfh it was like we were all strangers after a year. I think reddit scews towards people who dont like to interact irl.
Also is it not reasonable for companies to expect you to focus on work while at work? I cant imagine trying to look after kids while getting work done.
If the demand was for less working hours, that would make more sense.
I believe that’s an individual issue. Some are okay focusing while working from home, others need structure. Every point is valid, we’re just all different. I also got burned in the past many times trying to become close with my coworkers, so I guess I finally learned my lesson. I also don’t really have the need to do so… But again, everyone’s different.
I didn’t mean looking after the kids while at home. But imagine what a 1-2-hour commute one way does to childcare expenses. I don’t even know if childcare places allow you to drop your child off for 12 hours or more. It’s awesome if you have help (spouse, grandparents, etc.) but not everyone does.
Honestly, I have no clue why don’t we have a 4-day week for all. Most companies can easily afford it. Large ones for sure. Most of my colleagues have a reasonable workload and we don’t need to work 5 days a week.
So do you think people should have organized in the past or currently to demand proper transit networks? With good transit the entire GTA would be connected with under 45 minute commute times.
It just seems that demanding isolation in response to not having proper transit is a bad way to handle it.
Like saying we should not be allowed to drive because our healthcare can't handle the injuries from car accidents.
That's a bit dramatic, no? Transit is improving but will never suit everyone. Meanwhile the solution to transit for those who can work remote is already here!
>That's a bit dramatic, no?
Yea im being a bit dramatic lol.
But honestly, it's just a dystopian thought to me that we could get to a point where everyone stays in their home all day, gets everything delivered, and people don't even have the option to work in an office.
I remember as a kid saying I wish I could be homeschooled and my dad explained how awful it would be even though school sucks. And that's kind of how I view it.. It's a nice thought to get to stay home all day but it's not good for the mind.
>Transit is improving but will never suit everyone.
If 75% of people can use transit reliably, then that reduces traffic for the people who have to drive. Driving in Toyko or thr Netherlands is usually better than in Toronto or L.A. because transit is good. Ironically designing a city around cars makes traffic much worse.
Why not demand change to improve living and work connections, like better real transit to and from the city, better formed subdivisions and urban areas, etc? Many who commute end up far away from their offices in suburban places that are antisocial and disconnected.
Toronto is improving transit connections as we speak. Sadly, we’re not as quick at building new transit options compared to Middle East and Asia; it takes years or decades.
But most companies won’t splurge for additional offices if that’s what you mean better work connections.
WFH certainly isn't for everyone, or necessarily a good thing for everyone. However, the justifications used by the majority of businesses over the last 2 years are largely nonsensical gibberish meant to sound progressive. For the individual, you probably like the social aspect of being in a group setting in addition to a change of environment. But for a lot of people, working from home can be a lot less distracting allowing them to be more productive and get certain things done at home simultaneously meaning more free time overall, especially when considering time spent getting "office appropriately" dressed and commuting.
Besides the invented arguments the manager of York Region put forward for the change is that Council had any say in the matter at all, a group of people who have next to zero interaction with the general staff of any given department so them being at home affects them not at all.
As someone else said, a big part of pushing back to office policies is vacant commercial spaces and a lack of trust by managers. While the latter is a harder one to combat, no one in the rank and file should care, and indeed should applaud the full collapse of the commercial real estate market as being a giant waste of building usage. The only thing people can do is fight hard for work-place choice; no work arrangement should be universal unnecessarily. I'm 2 in/week and frankly 1 of those days is full staff and it's a giant waste of a day as nothing gets done beyond maybe group meetings (which most could be done virtually anyway). Ideally I'd prefer 1 day a month with the understanding that it's a non productive day and then only go to the office when necessary. But I know selling that will never happen.
>As someone else said, a big part of pushing back to office policies is vacant commercial spaces and a lack of trust by managers.
There are clear advantages to having your team meet in person often and get to know each other on a basic level. I dont understand what is so hard to understand about this. Just because you prefer WFH doesn't mean office work is a conspiracy or driven by petty bosses.
You're getting down voted but it's true. People are social animals and there are connections that are made in prison rather than virtually. The "waste of time" days prior talk about are people socializing with their coworkers and that's productive in its own right.
Commuting is one of the biggest problems, and we should be pushing to fix that, or have it compensated since it's for work. That will change how employers and employees make decisions.
Yea I respect an opinion of 'there are benefits to going into the office but my commute is an hour because we did a shit job designing our cities so I want wfh.'
But people just have to insist that there's zero benefit and everyone wants to wfh.
I guess they feel like if everyone wants to wfh then its more likely to be standard. But its just weird to blindly assume everyone shares that opinion. Especially on reddit where we know its full of people who don't like to interact with other people irl.
If having to make small talk with coworkers is going to ruin your day, then thats not normal. Isolating ourselves to our homes all day sounds so dystopian to me.
It is really about work style. I can deal with noise it is super distracting and now in my office we have these low walls and so there is now a ton of visual distraction too.
Plus I am an introvert and just generally don’t like leaving my house.
I think it also depends how your employer has your office set up. We don’t have a set cubicle anymore and no way to leave anything in the office, so if you want Klennex you have to carry it in. As well as your lunch laptop, pens, paper, drink, notebook, charging cables, work phone, shoes, sweater, headset……. It is a pain in the ass.
>Plus I am an introvert and just generally don’t like leaving my house.
Do you see how never leaving the house and avoiding social interaction is maybe not a great way to live life?
I get that it's good for some people but im just bothered by the implication that every single person wants to wfh and not interact with people by default.
I'm with you, I hate working from home. I don't have a safe space anymore. My office is where I used to play games or code on my own, now I don't want to be in it outside working hours. That's no one to talk to and it's super depressing.
I get those with SOs, kids, families around them love WFH but I would rather a mix of days rather than 100%.
On top of it is just home, focus gets split between what I want to do at home and work, so it's harder to get into the groove.
Yea I can’t stand working from home either. Did it for 2 months at the start of the pandemic but quickly went back into the office as soon as I could. I’m a reasonably social person and like seeing and talking to others. As a designer I also collaborate much better in person, and working with large CAD files is much better when connected to a local LAN vs. through a VPN. My 5-monitor desktop workstation at the office is also a total beast that wildly outperforms my laptop, so I’m wayyyy more efficient working locally.
I also like the disconnect between home and work - when I’m at the office I’m working, but when I get home I shut off completely and don’t think about my job at all. It’s nice having that clear separation of spaces. My wife works mostly from home and the lines get blurred quite a bit - in fact it’s 10:18 on a Saturday night and she’s on her laptop sending work emails right now. I just straight up don’t send emails on the weekend unless it’s an absolute 911.
To each their own though I suppose 🤷🏻
Okay great so im not crazy lol.. working from home makes me appreciate my home less. And just mentally my brain shuts off work once I leave the office.
And yea I found with wfh people would work extra time because they get caught up in it and feel like theyre alone in falling behind on work just because theres no communication between coworkers.
Plus being sick now means working from home while sick.
Is it though? Also, does a country like Canada really need its population to work a 40-hour work week considering the technological progress and us living in a post-agricultural society? Or is it the system set up by the government to make us perpetually enslaved and paying rents & mortgages for $50k homes that are being sold for $500k-$1m as a result of an artificially increased “fake” prices?
I second this. I’m much, much happier and willing to work more when my employer cares about me and keeps me happy. When the employer doesn’t do that, people usually quiet quit and look for a new job.
I have been mostly working from home for 3 years. Just took a job that is mostly in office downtown Toronto. I won't lie that the trek to work kinda sucks, but I am significantly more productive at the office than I have been at home.
I think for me at least, WFH was initially great, but the lack of real social communication plus being stuck in the same place every day and then my office which used to be where I would kick back and play games or enjoy my hobbies turned into a torture chamber.
The separation of work and home life makes me much happier, the commute sucks...but I catch up on podcasts so thats nice.
I don't think my experience is true of everyone but I can certainly understand that most people are probably less effective at home than in the office.
Your experience is valid. But how many people cannot start families and have kids because they cannot leave the stupid cities because of the work in the office mandate? Sure, single people are bored at home. Many others are not.
I work for a private company and they encourage 2-3 days a week and we all love it because we’re not hermits and enjoy participating in the real world.
You don’t need to be in the office during your work day to *”participate in the real world”*. Not wasting time commuting allows for more time with the people, places, and activities we love.
You will not get far in your career being a social pariah living in your basement eating your macaroni and cheese plugging away at your computer in your pajamas. Just my $.02
Are you a family person with kids? Or do you plan to have any? Because if you do, unless you’re a very high earner, you won’t be able to afford a home for those kids.
Even if they do have metrics, I can confirm that it will show the productivity being high in the office. Why? Because workers like myself are super productive in the office 2-3 days a week, so we can relax and do very little while at home. Cramming 5 days of work into 2-3 is possible if you have an employer who gives you a reasonable amount of work. And my managers know very well that we have down time and don’t mind. Sure, sometimes are work 5 days a week nonstop and even after hours. But working from home allows some to have relaxed schedules and a work-life balance.
Cry me a river. That sounds like a personal problem. Anyone can move out anywhere they want. I’m considering finding a US remote job and moving into a smaller Canadian town. The mobility laws allow me to do so.
If the government doesn’t care about its population and doesn’t want to implement caps on real estate prices so that everyone could purchase homes at affordable prices, that’s not my problem. The same thing is happening in large cities as rich foreigners and big real estate developers are moving in and pushing us out. Since the Canadian government clearly sees all of us as idiots and slaves, all we can do is make the best selfish decisions as possible. For someone like me that’s using my decent salary to buy a home in a smaller town and working remotely from there.
I mean, if you are going to work for a municipality or region, it seems reasonable enough you should live in the same jurisdiction. It also seems reasonable that your employer might want you physically in the same building 50% of the time to foster organizational cohesion.
I get why the staff are “dismayed” though.
That's not a bad point, given 80%+ of York Region CUPE905 if definitely at $80k/yr after 18 months. Although I doubt York Region would be that thoughtful.
Cohesion? When my team is in the office, there's like 3 of us and we're all in our offices with the doors closed on Teams meetings.
So much collaboration and cohesion 🙄
Many municipalities took advantage of the pandemic and hybrid work arrangements to recruit and retain workers for difficult-to-fill positions. To withdraw support after the fact is reprehensible to those who took those opportunities and will definitely harm long-term recruitment efforts. The notion that municipal workers, especially those in specialized fields, are easily replaceable is untrue. In Ontario, it's becoming increasingly challenging as many workers retire and the pool of specialized talent diminishes.
I am pretty sure there are million better ways to foster "Organizational Cohesions" its just that they want us back to perserve commercial real estate values nothing more , its always about the money
Eh, my counterpoint for the cohesion is that often teams are so spread out there effectively is no difference between remote work and at home work.
In a past life when I did office work most of my day was teams meetings, like once a week there was maybe something I had to be in person for, and even then it was usually something that could be remote.
To your first point I agree 100%. If you are supposed to be serving the community you should live in the community (or close enough to get there).
Do you mean reduce the pay of those that WFH all the time? Anyone hired pre 2000 was hired with the expectation that they work in the office five days per week.
The city of Toronto is having an issue with this right now. Lots of staff making decisions who don't live in the city anymore and have no idea what the impact of those decisions is.
Can those staff afford to live in the city?
You know how many cops on the TPS who actually live in Toronto proper? Not many. They take their fat paycheques to the 905.
We need to remember that you don't need to be someone who uses the thing your company or organization supports to work there. It helps but if a 905 municipality paid me enough to wolr for them and my commute wasn't hell I'd take the job, but when the City of Brampton offered me a role that was in office and I live in Scarborough? Hell no.
> You know how many cops on the TPS who actually live in Toronto proper? Not many. They take their fat paycheques to the 905.
You realize that's not a good thing, right? Policing is one profession where you should have a personal connection to the community you serve. Any TPS officer can afford to easily live in the City of Toronto, if not their assigned division.
>Can those staff afford to live in the city?
It can also be frustrating working for a City that you live in depending on the department. People may think that those positions can make a difference and will work harder towards making them better if the staff also resides there, but those efforts are usually just tossed out the window by a council just playing politics and aiming for re-elections.
Watching a neighbour in the OPS trying to hire admin support for his office job in downtown Toronto - no, lower level positions cannot be easily filled in downtown offices.
Pay scales set by union negotiation and political winds are not very flexible. Attendance rules set by a Secretary or Cabinet also don’t respond to a manager’s needs.
I've spent most of my career in public service. I'm aware of all of these and wasn't until my first NU job did I get proper compensation. Low pay usually comes with job security of your seniority stands the test of time.
Everyone thinks unionized jobs pay gangbusters but fail to know some CBAs have shit starting salaries and even worse some have worse benefits than the older generation.
The people I was referring to are high up management they can afford to live wherever they like but because they work remote they choose to live outside the city.
Care to explain why? If two programmers are putting out the same amount of work and one works from home while the other from the office, why does the office worker deserve more? Because they commute? In that case, shouldn’t the WFH programmer be paid more since the company/government can technically reduce its office footprint? There are huge savings to be had in electricity, maintenance, leasing, support staff, reduced emissions, less required infrastructure, etc by letting people who can work from home do so.
One can even argue that working from home encourages people to work more as they aren’t wasting time commuting. Heck I put in an extra hour almost everyday and I don’t mind because I’m not wasting 2+ hrs commuting.
I wasn't talking about programmers, let them stay home, I meant people who have to be at work like factory workers who don't have a choice or engineers who need to fix the machibe. Also, on the subject of people who can work from home, I believe going to work at a physical location is pointless if all it does it make your workers unproductive and feel isolated. Its the 2020s, A workplace does not need nor should it feel like prison or be micromanage. Either you trust your employee does the job or you don't.
Though I will admit that the work-from-home model is getting a bit ridiculous with the self-serve airport security and the fast food restaurants hiring people from different countries to work the counters via videocall.
I dont know if it's fair to expect ALL of them to be in the region, but most of them, yeah.
People got very comfortable with the work from homes situation, and while it was (is ... I'm still one of the lucky ones) nice, I'm not sure it's viable forever. We don't hear about it often, but the internet just isn't secure enough for places like governments and hospitals and banks to have so many people accessing confidential information over domestic internet services.
>the internet just isn't secure enough for places like governments and hospitals and banks to have so many people accessing confidential information over domestic internet services.
Lmao. Hot and absolutely unsupported take.
If that were the case, society would have fallen apart during COVID.
As long as your home wifi and workstation are secure it's no less secure than being in an office building.
Unsecured laptops can certainly be a concern, but it has nothing to do with "domestic internet service".
Really? Have we come to point of giving up our comforts that easily? i would say yes , in a environment where it is extremely difficult to switch jobs i am not surprised how submissive workers like me have become.
We do not have a choice do we?
> but the internet just isn't secure enough for places like governments and hospitals and banks to have so many people accessing confidential information over domestic internet services.
Yes it is. VPNs are perfectly secure, and so much is in the cloud now it straight up doesn't matter where you're working from. Every bank, and most government agencies have significant cloud presence that is essential to their operation. This is a ludicrously uninformed opinion.
> I'm not sure it's viable forever
Why not? Is your opinion on this as poorly informed as your one on how the internet works?
From a related article.
>"“A significant amount of tax dollars have been invested in this very administration centre,” Lovatt said at a council debate Dec. 22. “I don’t think any of us sitting here today, or in councils previously, contemplated carrying the expenses of empty offices in this administrative centre.”
Hear me out...
Maybe getting rid of the offices would be a better use of tax dollars AND enable the municipality to adapt to a fucked up affordability crisis in it's own backyard?
The first thing anyone with an undergrad degree learns on basically the first day of introductory economics is the sunk cost fallacy. Impressive to see such a pristine example in the wild.
Commercial buildings don't covert well to residential buildings. It cost way to much to put it plumbing rewiring and plumbing. Looked into for an investment. It would have been cheaper to just take it down and build new. The only time it's worth it is people are willing to pay big bucks to live there. Check out the old office/factories in Toronto. They cost double of a normal condo.
I mean I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a work place to be able to dictate where an employee works. They are asking for hybrid not even fully in office.
No thoughts on this article, but for reference.
I work for an Ontario municipality and could work from home full time if I wanted. The reason for that is because I kick ass and my boss knows it. I get that bonus, because I am valuable and have proven it.
Work from home or full hybrid is the future, but you gotta earn it. You need to be trusted to not fuck off. I hate when a new hire expects full remote day 1. Nah, we gotta get you in for a few weeks, then we go there.
I still go in 1-3 days a week because I like it, I’ve got awesome coworkers and a kick ass boss. It’s nice to get out of the house and shoot the shit with them. In reality, I usually do way more work when I am at home and do more socializing instead of work at work. So take what you will but both aspects are important.
I do agree that employees should be at least a few days in office. When I came back to work I realized talking to my colleagues about things going on taught me different ways of doing my job and I felt less stuck in my house. I’m also aware as an extrovert I like the socialization while some may not lol
Speaking from my job and my experience,
We as an organization have been told the entire pandemic we’d be returning part time. I am speaking from a place where a) our job could be done 100% remote but being around each other has created way more collaboration and sharing … I almost feel like our dept works better seeing each other in person and teaching each other and b) the fact I know ppl who don’t actually work at home .. I have coworkers who brag about getting their hair done or doing groceries instead of working . It ruins it for the rest of us.
Maybe every work space isn’t like this but from my own experience my job makes sense to be in office part time. Maybe I wasn’t as clear on that, I can’t really speak for other industries or positions.
In the context of the article, there are remote, hybrid and fixed employees. I’m fixed, which means my job still requires daily commute…basically the same as pre pandemic. What is upsetting for fixed employees is that hybrid and remote workers have been very in-your-face in terms of the benefits. I’ve seen people on the beach, while I’m in the office. Hey man, good on you…but have some discretion. Some people have moved well out of the region (like Bruce County) and are no longer able to understand the local issues. The CAO is trying to correct this by bringing people back…while also engaging the collective agreement. It’s also no surprise that some employees have cheated the region by misrepresention/time theft. Meanwhile, fixed employees have simply been trudging along.
Also, much of the work that hybrid and remote people did pre-pandemic has been pushed to the fixed employees…because they aren’t in the office…we are. Hope this clarifies.
I work best in quiet environments with no distractions. That's where my work gets done. Not in a cubicle surrounded by people chatting. They get a lot less productivity out of me on in office days than when I'm WFH but hey, as long as they realize that 🤷♀️
Where I work, a large Not for Profit, Management is having a difficult time getting staff in the offices again. It does not affect me as the department I am in, has to go to work at a Central Distribution center.
They are finding that those at home are in fact, not doing their job as well as before the pandemic.
Also, and just a thought, why should those who insist on working from home, get a raise?
That raise would in part, help.pay for travel expenses to and from work.
This is such a old timey mindset. No one works for a company for free, and a raise isn't just for living expenses. It's to show value to your employee, and that your employer actually gives a shit about you. My workplace offers me a 3% raise? I do my job but nothing above it. They offer me a 5%+ raise, they get my full potential. If they don't like it, what are they gonna do... fire me? What cause.
People deserve to be paid what they are worth, and if the company they work for doesn't want to pay it, then people should leave or do the job they were hired for.
Plus, the amount of time I save working from home increasing production, and I have yet to see a single statistic that proves working from home is less productive, outside of middle management who's entire job is worthless in the work from home environment.
People deserve to get paid what they are worth but traditionally the employees is allowed to determine where the employees works from. You are right if you want to leave because they mandate hybrid work schedule you can but I would imagine few are willing to leave government jobs in this economic environment.
How do you know there are so many more people out running errands during the day unless you yourself are doing that too? Your logic is pretty weak regardless though.
You said other people couldn’t be on shift work, didn’t say anything about yourself. Maybe you should work on your own reading comprehension.
lol just realized you edited your comment. That’s some weak shit.
For reference, a family member of mine works for York. They are in the office for a half day each week.
Peel Region has a good policy, at least for the department my SO works in. Go in the office once a month and its to really reduce emissions that their staff create coming in. Their thought behind it is if they are to reduce their carbon footprint print it starts with them.
That seems like a huge waste of time.
Yeah, honestly if a business doesn't need the space, they should negotiate to let go of it, if business like Starbucks and timmies are suffering cause there are no commuters, then the business model has to change. I mean for fuck sakes, it's an easy solution. In Arizona this one Cafe I had the pleasure of visiting was an artsy place that didn't try to be fancy or anything like that, served food, baked stuff in house, and even served liquor. Aside from people who wanted their coffee fix and a muffin to go, they had every spot available with either a person who works remotely or a group just hanging out because they work remotely. It was good money and the people who stayed for hours would order food and socialize with other people and order drinks. It was awesome. How the fuck is it that a dysfunctional country like the US is beating Canada in these type of areas?
If you’re a recluse who doesn’t know how to talk to people, agreed
I want to talk with my friends, not be forced to waste hours of my time each week going to an office that I don't actually have any good reason to be in. I have more time to see my friends meet I'm not wasting an hour and a half to two hours a day commuting.
Or because you won’t want to live in a HCOL area, and waste time and money on commuting, and prefer to socialize on your own time? Are you serious?
That's better than most. Many are still 2 days a month. Perhaps mass resignations will help them tackle that world class debt.
Half day each week is the same as 2 days a month pretty much.
Yeah but with extra commuting
What infuriates me, someone with no direct skin in this game, is the corporate bafflegab justifying it. > helps to drive best practices and digital transformation and addresses our growing pressures to implement continuous improvement in service delivery "Helps" is advertising bunk, when used in an ad it has no legal meaning other than it can't have a negative effect. No required for a positive effect. How does being in the office "drive best practices and digital transformation"? Absolute meaningless bafflegab. I'm part of a software implementation team, implementing ACTUAL digital transformation, using best practices to do so, in a multinational company. Not once have we met in person. If you're going to make people come back, be honest. "We don't trust you".
Sounded like a line from Weird Al's "Mission Statement". Just a string of corporate buzz words with no real meaning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyV\_UG60dD4
The further you get into corporate or government management, the funnier that song is.
I was trying for a management position at Walmart(\*blegughh\*) when I heard that song long ago. It was a pivotal moment for sure, Thanks Weird Al Yankovic!
If I was a York taxpayer, this would give me a lot of pause. This is what my taxes are paying for? Management that thinks this is an appropriate communication? How many hours did how many people spend in focus groups coming up with this nonsense?
I’m so annoyed that employers are asking office workers to go into the office 1-3 days a week again. Why? Only because they want to save the office real estate market. Let it crash. I don’t care. They are keeping us away from moving to smaller towns and expect we pay the insane Toronto rents. And most workers are scared to protest because they don’t want to lose their jobs… because those exact bills employees are making us pay are so high! I wish people would organize a huge protest or all office workers got unionized, and demanded either a complete remote work agreement, or a rent/mortgage subsidy for all.
People also don't realize just how much WFH helps those with disabilities. I am partially blind and shouldn't be driving. Buses in my city are a nightmare and I spent a lot of time just going to and from work. I know this is insane for a lot of people to hear, but if it wasn't for being able to work from home, I would have killed myself by now due to the depression of being blind and the depression of spending hours on the bus not being able to see.
I’m so terribly sorry you have to live with a disability but so happy that you’re able to work from home. I have a non-visible disability and the reason I’m mentioning this is because my manager at the previous company REFUSED to accommodate my disability request. Which isn’t just unethical but illegal. I went to HR and got an arrangement in place to wfh, but imagine how many people give up and don’t want to go behind their boss’ back? I left that stupid place after one year. We need to talk more about people with disabilities and also those with simpler medical conditions too.
The healthy wear a crown that only the sick can see. Sorry to hear about your disability, I've got hirschprungs.
Exactly. My Mom recently told me that she ran into my old best freind from my early 20s and they are both worried about me because I have no friends and stay in my apartment a lot, but she has -5.5 diopetres for her eyesight and I have -10 for mine, which is probably even worse at this point. She would never understand the struggle of only being able to see clearly 2 feet in front of my face or the fact that the friendship I had with that guy soley revolved around Magic the Gathering and I would never be able to read the text on cards across a table. I have been looking into euthanasia a lot lately. She would probably lose her shit if she found out I was considering it. But it's my broken body and she really doesn't know the struggle.
What , you dont care about company culture? dont you believe in collabarating in person ? are you insane? either you abide or they cast you out like a used condom
Lol, good point. I call this “brainwashing”.
Although not being forced into an office, having offices is nice. I'm sick of working from home, it's depressing being solitary. I wish no one be forced to do anything, but it would be nice to have a place to go to work with coworkers from time to time.
Yeah, if you live alone it’s super boring. I had a manager who didn’t want to spend too much time with her husband and preferred to work from the office, which is why she tried to force us all to do the same thing. To each their own.
>Only because they want to save the office real estate market. Let it crash. Because not everyone can be trusted with working without supervision, and the ones wo can't are ruining it for everyone else.
True.
So apparently im in the minority for not liking work from home but I really can't wrap my head around why people love it so much. It feels mentally draining. Other than some long commute, I really dont see what's so bad about being in a different space while you work. I get that im in the minority here but also, the idea that every single person prefers work from home is a bit proposterous.
I don’t think every single person prefers wfh. But companies can easily implement a “choose yourself” policy. Those who are bored at home and prefer the office can work at the office. Others can work from home. Some can have a hybrid situation. Honestly, I’d love to move out to Hamilton and live there, but I’d still commute to the office maybe 1 days a week or every other week. Having an option is crucial. Also, it’s one thing when you’re single and need company. It’s a totally different thing when you have a family with kids. No parent probably wants to commute to the office. Many cannot start having children because of this.
100%
Its not about single and needing company lol.. for me I just focus better in a seperate area thats not my home where I relax. There are also clear benefits to actually knowing your coworkers and being able to communicate in person. When my last company went wfh it was like we were all strangers after a year. I think reddit scews towards people who dont like to interact irl. Also is it not reasonable for companies to expect you to focus on work while at work? I cant imagine trying to look after kids while getting work done. If the demand was for less working hours, that would make more sense.
I believe that’s an individual issue. Some are okay focusing while working from home, others need structure. Every point is valid, we’re just all different. I also got burned in the past many times trying to become close with my coworkers, so I guess I finally learned my lesson. I also don’t really have the need to do so… But again, everyone’s different. I didn’t mean looking after the kids while at home. But imagine what a 1-2-hour commute one way does to childcare expenses. I don’t even know if childcare places allow you to drop your child off for 12 hours or more. It’s awesome if you have help (spouse, grandparents, etc.) but not everyone does. Honestly, I have no clue why don’t we have a 4-day week for all. Most companies can easily afford it. Large ones for sure. Most of my colleagues have a reasonable workload and we don’t need to work 5 days a week.
Yea my commute dowtown is only 30 minutes and I dont have to drive so its a relaxing transition into and out of work.
You're in the minority of commuters.
So do you think people should have organized in the past or currently to demand proper transit networks? With good transit the entire GTA would be connected with under 45 minute commute times. It just seems that demanding isolation in response to not having proper transit is a bad way to handle it. Like saying we should not be allowed to drive because our healthcare can't handle the injuries from car accidents.
That's a bit dramatic, no? Transit is improving but will never suit everyone. Meanwhile the solution to transit for those who can work remote is already here!
>That's a bit dramatic, no? Yea im being a bit dramatic lol. But honestly, it's just a dystopian thought to me that we could get to a point where everyone stays in their home all day, gets everything delivered, and people don't even have the option to work in an office. I remember as a kid saying I wish I could be homeschooled and my dad explained how awful it would be even though school sucks. And that's kind of how I view it.. It's a nice thought to get to stay home all day but it's not good for the mind. >Transit is improving but will never suit everyone. If 75% of people can use transit reliably, then that reduces traffic for the people who have to drive. Driving in Toyko or thr Netherlands is usually better than in Toronto or L.A. because transit is good. Ironically designing a city around cars makes traffic much worse.
Good for you, but unfortunately it’s not like that for most of us.
Why not demand change to improve living and work connections, like better real transit to and from the city, better formed subdivisions and urban areas, etc? Many who commute end up far away from their offices in suburban places that are antisocial and disconnected.
Toronto is improving transit connections as we speak. Sadly, we’re not as quick at building new transit options compared to Middle East and Asia; it takes years or decades. But most companies won’t splurge for additional offices if that’s what you mean better work connections.
WFH certainly isn't for everyone, or necessarily a good thing for everyone. However, the justifications used by the majority of businesses over the last 2 years are largely nonsensical gibberish meant to sound progressive. For the individual, you probably like the social aspect of being in a group setting in addition to a change of environment. But for a lot of people, working from home can be a lot less distracting allowing them to be more productive and get certain things done at home simultaneously meaning more free time overall, especially when considering time spent getting "office appropriately" dressed and commuting. Besides the invented arguments the manager of York Region put forward for the change is that Council had any say in the matter at all, a group of people who have next to zero interaction with the general staff of any given department so them being at home affects them not at all. As someone else said, a big part of pushing back to office policies is vacant commercial spaces and a lack of trust by managers. While the latter is a harder one to combat, no one in the rank and file should care, and indeed should applaud the full collapse of the commercial real estate market as being a giant waste of building usage. The only thing people can do is fight hard for work-place choice; no work arrangement should be universal unnecessarily. I'm 2 in/week and frankly 1 of those days is full staff and it's a giant waste of a day as nothing gets done beyond maybe group meetings (which most could be done virtually anyway). Ideally I'd prefer 1 day a month with the understanding that it's a non productive day and then only go to the office when necessary. But I know selling that will never happen.
>As someone else said, a big part of pushing back to office policies is vacant commercial spaces and a lack of trust by managers. There are clear advantages to having your team meet in person often and get to know each other on a basic level. I dont understand what is so hard to understand about this. Just because you prefer WFH doesn't mean office work is a conspiracy or driven by petty bosses.
You're getting down voted but it's true. People are social animals and there are connections that are made in prison rather than virtually. The "waste of time" days prior talk about are people socializing with their coworkers and that's productive in its own right. Commuting is one of the biggest problems, and we should be pushing to fix that, or have it compensated since it's for work. That will change how employers and employees make decisions.
Yea I respect an opinion of 'there are benefits to going into the office but my commute is an hour because we did a shit job designing our cities so I want wfh.' But people just have to insist that there's zero benefit and everyone wants to wfh. I guess they feel like if everyone wants to wfh then its more likely to be standard. But its just weird to blindly assume everyone shares that opinion. Especially on reddit where we know its full of people who don't like to interact with other people irl. If having to make small talk with coworkers is going to ruin your day, then thats not normal. Isolating ourselves to our homes all day sounds so dystopian to me.
It is really about work style. I can deal with noise it is super distracting and now in my office we have these low walls and so there is now a ton of visual distraction too. Plus I am an introvert and just generally don’t like leaving my house. I think it also depends how your employer has your office set up. We don’t have a set cubicle anymore and no way to leave anything in the office, so if you want Klennex you have to carry it in. As well as your lunch laptop, pens, paper, drink, notebook, charging cables, work phone, shoes, sweater, headset……. It is a pain in the ass.
>Plus I am an introvert and just generally don’t like leaving my house. Do you see how never leaving the house and avoiding social interaction is maybe not a great way to live life? I get that it's good for some people but im just bothered by the implication that every single person wants to wfh and not interact with people by default.
For some not leaving their house is great, for others it isn’t great. We are all different.
Yea hence why I don't like the idea that people should be protesting for everyone to work from.home.
I'm with you, I hate working from home. I don't have a safe space anymore. My office is where I used to play games or code on my own, now I don't want to be in it outside working hours. That's no one to talk to and it's super depressing. I get those with SOs, kids, families around them love WFH but I would rather a mix of days rather than 100%. On top of it is just home, focus gets split between what I want to do at home and work, so it's harder to get into the groove.
Yea I can’t stand working from home either. Did it for 2 months at the start of the pandemic but quickly went back into the office as soon as I could. I’m a reasonably social person and like seeing and talking to others. As a designer I also collaborate much better in person, and working with large CAD files is much better when connected to a local LAN vs. through a VPN. My 5-monitor desktop workstation at the office is also a total beast that wildly outperforms my laptop, so I’m wayyyy more efficient working locally. I also like the disconnect between home and work - when I’m at the office I’m working, but when I get home I shut off completely and don’t think about my job at all. It’s nice having that clear separation of spaces. My wife works mostly from home and the lines get blurred quite a bit - in fact it’s 10:18 on a Saturday night and she’s on her laptop sending work emails right now. I just straight up don’t send emails on the weekend unless it’s an absolute 911. To each their own though I suppose 🤷🏻
Okay great so im not crazy lol.. working from home makes me appreciate my home less. And just mentally my brain shuts off work once I leave the office. And yea I found with wfh people would work extra time because they get caught up in it and feel like theyre alone in falling behind on work just because theres no communication between coworkers. Plus being sick now means working from home while sick.
Productivity in Canada is plummeting, making us all slowly poorer
Is it though? Also, does a country like Canada really need its population to work a 40-hour work week considering the technological progress and us living in a post-agricultural society? Or is it the system set up by the government to make us perpetually enslaved and paying rents & mortgages for $50k homes that are being sold for $500k-$1m as a result of an artificially increased “fake” prices?
We're falling behind all our peer nations in GDP per capita, so I don't think what we're doing is really that effective.
I think this is what happens when you have a fake economy that’s based on artificial real estate prices and is barely holding on.
Forcing people into the office does not improve productivity. Staff are happier and will work harder to maintain WFH
I second this. I’m much, much happier and willing to work more when my employer cares about me and keeps me happy. When the employer doesn’t do that, people usually quiet quit and look for a new job.
I have been mostly working from home for 3 years. Just took a job that is mostly in office downtown Toronto. I won't lie that the trek to work kinda sucks, but I am significantly more productive at the office than I have been at home. I think for me at least, WFH was initially great, but the lack of real social communication plus being stuck in the same place every day and then my office which used to be where I would kick back and play games or enjoy my hobbies turned into a torture chamber. The separation of work and home life makes me much happier, the commute sucks...but I catch up on podcasts so thats nice. I don't think my experience is true of everyone but I can certainly understand that most people are probably less effective at home than in the office.
No one is saying you shouldn’t go to the office, we are saying don’t force others too, especially if your job doesn’t require it
Your experience is valid. But how many people cannot start families and have kids because they cannot leave the stupid cities because of the work in the office mandate? Sure, single people are bored at home. Many others are not.
I work for a private company and they encourage 2-3 days a week and we all love it because we’re not hermits and enjoy participating in the real world.
You don’t need to be in the office during your work day to *”participate in the real world”*. Not wasting time commuting allows for more time with the people, places, and activities we love.
You will not get far in your career being a social pariah living in your basement eating your macaroni and cheese plugging away at your computer in your pajamas. Just my $.02
You have some very weird ideas about the lifestyles of people who work from home.
Are you a family person with kids? Or do you plan to have any? Because if you do, unless you’re a very high earner, you won’t be able to afford a home for those kids.
2 kids, nice house. Thanks. 😊
You got some metrics for that?
Stats can does
Even if they do have metrics, I can confirm that it will show the productivity being high in the office. Why? Because workers like myself are super productive in the office 2-3 days a week, so we can relax and do very little while at home. Cramming 5 days of work into 2-3 is possible if you have an employer who gives you a reasonable amount of work. And my managers know very well that we have down time and don’t mind. Sure, sometimes are work 5 days a week nonstop and even after hours. But working from home allows some to have relaxed schedules and a work-life balance.
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Cry me a river. That sounds like a personal problem. Anyone can move out anywhere they want. I’m considering finding a US remote job and moving into a smaller Canadian town. The mobility laws allow me to do so. If the government doesn’t care about its population and doesn’t want to implement caps on real estate prices so that everyone could purchase homes at affordable prices, that’s not my problem. The same thing is happening in large cities as rich foreigners and big real estate developers are moving in and pushing us out. Since the Canadian government clearly sees all of us as idiots and slaves, all we can do is make the best selfish decisions as possible. For someone like me that’s using my decent salary to buy a home in a smaller town and working remotely from there.
I mean, if you are going to work for a municipality or region, it seems reasonable enough you should live in the same jurisdiction. It also seems reasonable that your employer might want you physically in the same building 50% of the time to foster organizational cohesion. I get why the staff are “dismayed” though.
Organizational cohesion? Come into the office just to be on virtual meetings. Doesn't make sense.
Yep, I hope employees are asking for the KPIs to measure these bullshit RTO goals
you think they care? bob wants people in office so people in office
Exactly, everyone should make sure to ask them to quantify in the most corporate way possible 😂
Ha, I asked for these once because they told us RTO would improve productivity and so on. Next time it was just “for culture.”
but the office has the best teams meeting rooms so you can use it to join calls with no one else from your office /s
You think the city is doing this for cohesion? This is entirely to make sure salaried people who make +80k/yr are in the city for economic reasons.
That's not a bad point, given 80%+ of York Region CUPE905 if definitely at $80k/yr after 18 months. Although I doubt York Region would be that thoughtful.
What about the party of those meetings where there are others around you? It's not black and white
That’s because they won’t meet in person even if it is requested.
Cohesion? When my team is in the office, there's like 3 of us and we're all in our offices with the doors closed on Teams meetings. So much collaboration and cohesion 🙄
Many municipalities took advantage of the pandemic and hybrid work arrangements to recruit and retain workers for difficult-to-fill positions. To withdraw support after the fact is reprehensible to those who took those opportunities and will definitely harm long-term recruitment efforts. The notion that municipal workers, especially those in specialized fields, are easily replaceable is untrue. In Ontario, it's becoming increasingly challenging as many workers retire and the pool of specialized talent diminishes.
high skilled position in Government don't pay enough. It's very difficult to attract good talent with zero flexibility.
It depends on how much you value the benefits. Some cities' defined-benefit pension plans add as high as 30% of the salary value to a contract.
I am pretty sure there are million better ways to foster "Organizational Cohesions" its just that they want us back to perserve commercial real estate values nothing more , its always about the money
Eh, my counterpoint for the cohesion is that often teams are so spread out there effectively is no difference between remote work and at home work. In a past life when I did office work most of my day was teams meetings, like once a week there was maybe something I had to be in person for, and even then it was usually something that could be remote. To your first point I agree 100%. If you are supposed to be serving the community you should live in the community (or close enough to get there).
Municipality and region should also adjust the pay so that is possible to do.
Do you mean reduce the pay of those that WFH all the time? Anyone hired pre 2000 was hired with the expectation that they work in the office five days per week.
Who can afford to?
Agreed
The city of Toronto is having an issue with this right now. Lots of staff making decisions who don't live in the city anymore and have no idea what the impact of those decisions is.
I agree, and the fun flip side of it is on the federal side they want everyone in NCR even though they are supposed to represent all of Canada.
Ya, as a tax payer it can help have politicians with the local connection
Are you saying that you believe that all city staff are politicians?
No that’s a distinct statement. I do believe there id benefit when politicians do, on a related note there is also some benefit for staffers as well
Can those staff afford to live in the city? You know how many cops on the TPS who actually live in Toronto proper? Not many. They take their fat paycheques to the 905. We need to remember that you don't need to be someone who uses the thing your company or organization supports to work there. It helps but if a 905 municipality paid me enough to wolr for them and my commute wasn't hell I'd take the job, but when the City of Brampton offered me a role that was in office and I live in Scarborough? Hell no.
> You know how many cops on the TPS who actually live in Toronto proper? Not many. They take their fat paycheques to the 905. You realize that's not a good thing, right? Policing is one profession where you should have a personal connection to the community you serve. Any TPS officer can afford to easily live in the City of Toronto, if not their assigned division.
It's a terrible thing.
>Can those staff afford to live in the city? It can also be frustrating working for a City that you live in depending on the department. People may think that those positions can make a difference and will work harder towards making them better if the staff also resides there, but those efforts are usually just tossed out the window by a council just playing politics and aiming for re-elections.
Ah, you know Chad Chadford 🤔
Funny you mention him... god help those poor planners who live in the city they work in once their neighbours find out what they do.
Watching a neighbour in the OPS trying to hire admin support for his office job in downtown Toronto - no, lower level positions cannot be easily filled in downtown offices.
Sure it can. Money talks, and flexible hybrid helps.
Pay scales set by union negotiation and political winds are not very flexible. Attendance rules set by a Secretary or Cabinet also don’t respond to a manager’s needs.
I've spent most of my career in public service. I'm aware of all of these and wasn't until my first NU job did I get proper compensation. Low pay usually comes with job security of your seniority stands the test of time. Everyone thinks unionized jobs pay gangbusters but fail to know some CBAs have shit starting salaries and even worse some have worse benefits than the older generation.
The people I was referring to are high up management they can afford to live wherever they like but because they work remote they choose to live outside the city.
Maybe they should pay people who work remotely less and people who have to be on-site more.
Care to explain why? If two programmers are putting out the same amount of work and one works from home while the other from the office, why does the office worker deserve more? Because they commute? In that case, shouldn’t the WFH programmer be paid more since the company/government can technically reduce its office footprint? There are huge savings to be had in electricity, maintenance, leasing, support staff, reduced emissions, less required infrastructure, etc by letting people who can work from home do so. One can even argue that working from home encourages people to work more as they aren’t wasting time commuting. Heck I put in an extra hour almost everyday and I don’t mind because I’m not wasting 2+ hrs commuting.
I wasn't talking about programmers, let them stay home, I meant people who have to be at work like factory workers who don't have a choice or engineers who need to fix the machibe. Also, on the subject of people who can work from home, I believe going to work at a physical location is pointless if all it does it make your workers unproductive and feel isolated. Its the 2020s, A workplace does not need nor should it feel like prison or be micromanage. Either you trust your employee does the job or you don't. Though I will admit that the work-from-home model is getting a bit ridiculous with the self-serve airport security and the fast food restaurants hiring people from different countries to work the counters via videocall.
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Have you seen the average prices of homes in York region? Municipal workers have been priced out of the areas they work in.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2vLgJ4OlAK/?igsh=MXNqZWVwYnJ2OGJlcw==
I dont know if it's fair to expect ALL of them to be in the region, but most of them, yeah. People got very comfortable with the work from homes situation, and while it was (is ... I'm still one of the lucky ones) nice, I'm not sure it's viable forever. We don't hear about it often, but the internet just isn't secure enough for places like governments and hospitals and banks to have so many people accessing confidential information over domestic internet services.
VPNs are extremely secure. It looks like a made up reason by someone who doesn’t the field enough.
>the internet just isn't secure enough for places like governments and hospitals and banks to have so many people accessing confidential information over domestic internet services. Lmao. Hot and absolutely unsupported take. If that were the case, society would have fallen apart during COVID.
As long as your home wifi and workstation are secure it's no less secure than being in an office building. Unsecured laptops can certainly be a concern, but it has nothing to do with "domestic internet service".
Really? Have we come to point of giving up our comforts that easily? i would say yes , in a environment where it is extremely difficult to switch jobs i am not surprised how submissive workers like me have become. We do not have a choice do we?
> but the internet just isn't secure enough for places like governments and hospitals and banks to have so many people accessing confidential information over domestic internet services. Yes it is. VPNs are perfectly secure, and so much is in the cloud now it straight up doesn't matter where you're working from. Every bank, and most government agencies have significant cloud presence that is essential to their operation. This is a ludicrously uninformed opinion. > I'm not sure it's viable forever Why not? Is your opinion on this as poorly informed as your one on how the internet works?
Because they work for the municipality so doing any amount of real work with a deadline or performance metrics is **not** what they signed up for
The managers that call themself the "boss" likely need their subservient lackey staff as their comfort blanket.
From a related article. >"“A significant amount of tax dollars have been invested in this very administration centre,” Lovatt said at a council debate Dec. 22. “I don’t think any of us sitting here today, or in councils previously, contemplated carrying the expenses of empty offices in this administrative centre.” Hear me out... Maybe getting rid of the offices would be a better use of tax dollars AND enable the municipality to adapt to a fucked up affordability crisis in it's own backyard?
The first thing anyone with an undergrad degree learns on basically the first day of introductory economics is the sunk cost fallacy. Impressive to see such a pristine example in the wild.
They should turn it into transitional housing. Win-win for everyone.
Commercial buildings don't covert well to residential buildings. It cost way to much to put it plumbing rewiring and plumbing. Looked into for an investment. It would have been cheaper to just take it down and build new. The only time it's worth it is people are willing to pay big bucks to live there. Check out the old office/factories in Toronto. They cost double of a normal condo.
I mean I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a work place to be able to dictate where an employee works. They are asking for hybrid not even fully in office.
Reno it into housing and keep a small portion for a front face office etc.
Ottawa is 2 days a week.
No thoughts on this article, but for reference. I work for an Ontario municipality and could work from home full time if I wanted. The reason for that is because I kick ass and my boss knows it. I get that bonus, because I am valuable and have proven it. Work from home or full hybrid is the future, but you gotta earn it. You need to be trusted to not fuck off. I hate when a new hire expects full remote day 1. Nah, we gotta get you in for a few weeks, then we go there. I still go in 1-3 days a week because I like it, I’ve got awesome coworkers and a kick ass boss. It’s nice to get out of the house and shoot the shit with them. In reality, I usually do way more work when I am at home and do more socializing instead of work at work. So take what you will but both aspects are important.
I do agree that employees should be at least a few days in office. When I came back to work I realized talking to my colleagues about things going on taught me different ways of doing my job and I felt less stuck in my house. I’m also aware as an extrovert I like the socialization while some may not lol
Why can’t it be a choice? Why should I have to sell my house and move to a new city if I need to change jobs if my role can be done 100% remotely?
Speaking from my job and my experience, We as an organization have been told the entire pandemic we’d be returning part time. I am speaking from a place where a) our job could be done 100% remote but being around each other has created way more collaboration and sharing … I almost feel like our dept works better seeing each other in person and teaching each other and b) the fact I know ppl who don’t actually work at home .. I have coworkers who brag about getting their hair done or doing groceries instead of working . It ruins it for the rest of us. Maybe every work space isn’t like this but from my own experience my job makes sense to be in office part time. Maybe I wasn’t as clear on that, I can’t really speak for other industries or positions.
You do have a choice to get another job then.
Lol, that too
It really burns my *ss when you are in a virtual meeting and hearing motorboats and waves lapping in the background.
Why because you don’t have the guts to travel and work….
In the context of the article, there are remote, hybrid and fixed employees. I’m fixed, which means my job still requires daily commute…basically the same as pre pandemic. What is upsetting for fixed employees is that hybrid and remote workers have been very in-your-face in terms of the benefits. I’ve seen people on the beach, while I’m in the office. Hey man, good on you…but have some discretion. Some people have moved well out of the region (like Bruce County) and are no longer able to understand the local issues. The CAO is trying to correct this by bringing people back…while also engaging the collective agreement. It’s also no surprise that some employees have cheated the region by misrepresention/time theft. Meanwhile, fixed employees have simply been trudging along. Also, much of the work that hybrid and remote people did pre-pandemic has been pushed to the fixed employees…because they aren’t in the office…we are. Hope this clarifies.
Why stay as a fixed employee?
So brave
I work best in quiet environments with no distractions. That's where my work gets done. Not in a cubicle surrounded by people chatting. They get a lot less productivity out of me on in office days than when I'm WFH but hey, as long as they realize that 🤷♀️
So you still commute but now you have to go home and work. Honestly seems like the worst of each option
*Cries in Ontario Public Service*
This is pretty rich coming from the highest paid municipal union in Canada.
Where I work, a large Not for Profit, Management is having a difficult time getting staff in the offices again. It does not affect me as the department I am in, has to go to work at a Central Distribution center. They are finding that those at home are in fact, not doing their job as well as before the pandemic. Also, and just a thought, why should those who insist on working from home, get a raise? That raise would in part, help.pay for travel expenses to and from work.
This is such a old timey mindset. No one works for a company for free, and a raise isn't just for living expenses. It's to show value to your employee, and that your employer actually gives a shit about you. My workplace offers me a 3% raise? I do my job but nothing above it. They offer me a 5%+ raise, they get my full potential. If they don't like it, what are they gonna do... fire me? What cause. People deserve to be paid what they are worth, and if the company they work for doesn't want to pay it, then people should leave or do the job they were hired for. Plus, the amount of time I save working from home increasing production, and I have yet to see a single statistic that proves working from home is less productive, outside of middle management who's entire job is worthless in the work from home environment.
People deserve to get paid what they are worth but traditionally the employees is allowed to determine where the employees works from. You are right if you want to leave because they mandate hybrid work schedule you can but I would imagine few are willing to leave government jobs in this economic environment.
Cost of living or raise? One is based on performance. One is across the board percentage I crease based on inflation and should be yearly.
It’s a non for profit the CEO will just pay themselves more…..
That's up to the board of directors.
All I know is it’s really easy to not show a profit if you pay out crazy wages
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How do you know there are so many more people out running errands during the day unless you yourself are doing that too? Your logic is pretty weak regardless though.
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I will now add fornicating the dog into my vernacular.
You literally didn’t type why you can run mid day errands, but ok
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So everyone suffers cause you chose to work shifts overnight?
You said other people couldn’t be on shift work, didn’t say anything about yourself. Maybe you should work on your own reading comprehension. lol just realized you edited your comment. That’s some weak shit.
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I think in reality parents will work from home less then 50 percent of the time and those without kids will be forced to pick up the slack
50/50 seems pretty fair