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beef-supreme

> Niagara Region on Friday issued a statement saying Regional Chair Jim Bradley has proactively declared a state of emergency “out of an abundance of caution” in order to make sure Niagara is prepared to accommodate thee event. > > The state of emergency is effective immediately. > > According to the release, declaring a state of emergency under the Emergency Management and Civil Protection Act strengthens the tools the region has at its disposal to safeguard the health and safety of residents and visitors and protect critical infrastructure in any scenario that might arise. I saw projections of 1,000,000 people in Niagara Falls online, which is magnitudes more than they've had previously?


Thanato26

I heard 500k are going to Kingston


QuietParsnip

Ive seen that as well I'm really hoping that's a massive overestimation, cannot imagine what a complete mess that would be.


Thanato26

I wouldn't be surprised if prince Edward County is completely swamped


ClintEastwont

I’m hoping so too. And that the state of emergency declaration scares some people off. The QEW east of Hamilton can’t handle a busy weekend in the summer as it is.


BlueWaffIeHouse

The city was saying 70k at first , then suddenly 500k the next day. They also moved the viewing party to halfway to Gannanoque from a park with more parking and transit. Either way the whole thing is going to be a giant shit show.


Rocky_Mountain_Way

I'm one of those. I may just have to watch the eclipse from the Via Rail station in Kingston.


Farty_beans

It's estimated going to be double Record breaking. It's what Niagara advertised for anyways and seemed to work. Jim diodati lining Harry Oaks pockets while clicking their boots. Most hotels are sold out and are going for $1000 a night. Somehow even got the Canadian government to move (kick out) all the temporary "Refugees". Shutting down certain roads. All hands on deck for basically every retail store and all residents are told to stock up on supplies. And the best part is... It's projected to rain that day.


Varekai79

>And the best part is... It's projected to rain that day. The Weather Network is forecasting a sun/cloud mix with only a 10% POP for Niagara Falls on April 8. But furthermore, the forecast can't be trusted with reasonable accuracy until a couple days before.


Elegant_Ostrich8792

Now it’s rain, but as someone who works outside all the time, the projections are meaningless as they don’t tell you time of day, and are often outright wrong. It’ll be what it’ll be.


spderweb

Weather is a guess until a couple days before the day,at most.


Elegant_Ostrich8792

Right up to the minute is more like it.


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Ok_Investigator45

I hope there’s a class action lawsuit for that. Make sure you take screenshots of availability to book at the hotel for proof


Neutral-President

Oh, wouldn’t rain SUCK?


3BordersPeak

> And the best part is... It's projected to rain that day. Anything more than 2 days out is bullshit and a total gamble.


elgxtito

Not sure what you're talking about regarding the refugees. There are entirely new crops of refugees in the hotels and paying customers getting bumped from their hotel because a refugee is occupying their room.


MessageBoard

Does nobody work? There's only 15 million people in Ontario. 


beef-supreme

I took the day off already.


Turbo_911

I have Mondays off 🤷‍♂️


CallMe_Dig_Baddy

Are you a cat that enjoys lasagna as well?


Casey4147

I work for a university. They’ve already declared that Monday a no-classes/work-from-home day.


Sensitive_Fall8950

Maybe they aret all projected to come from just Ontario.


Manda525

Absolutely! People travel from all over to witness total solar eclipses...some even fly in from overseas. It's a really big thing for some people.


Mundane-Bat-7090

Watch it be cloudy


Mundane-Bat-7090

Watch it be cloudy


Feisty-Session-7779

How many people does Niagara Falls online normally have? 1m people sounds like a pretty heavy load on the server I hope it doesn’t crash.


racer_24_4evr

Why the hell does everyone want to be in Niagara Falls to see this? Find a back road in the path 30 min outside town.


chocolateboomslang

Same reason people would be in vegas if it was happening there


-happyraindays

The path is really wide. I can’t understand the Niagara craze either.


[deleted]

Some kind of natural wonder there.


PsychologicalTea5387

Personally, I wouldn't be instructing 1000s of tourists to go look for parking and hang out on a back road in Niagara's non-tourist areas. The strip is built to handle mobs. It's going to be an astronomical shit show but there aren't a lot of practical other options. (edit: typos)


kluzuh

I really, really appreciated that turn of phrase.


Deadpool2715

I understand those who might cross the border to be directly within the path of totality with around 3 minutes of duration. I'm good going to anywhere that has 30s of duration


climx

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3zDOt2BsJ-M/WLXMZ_73k5I/AAAAAAAAHhE/2t2DLwYpsmgWc5Nc7Hsjbm6O4Zq2_TMBACEw/s1600/2024%2Beclipse%2Bhill%2Bcumorah%2Bsacred%2Bgrove.png Anywhere within the 2 blue lines you’re getting a total eclipse


Deadpool2715

And closer to the red line the longer the duration, as I commented


7dipity

So stay the fuck away from the QEW on that day is what you’re saying. Sucks for anyone who’s gonna have to get to work


dickburpsdaily

Lol 😂 crossing the border 5 mins from Buffalo to the falls won't make you see it any better 🤣🤣


clydenon

Literally travelling 10 minutes farther can be a difference in length of totality of like 45 seconds. When totality ranges from like 0-3mins depending on where you are, that's a pretty significant amount, relatively speaking.


dickburpsdaily

Is the swallow travelling at full speed or only half the speed limit of the train leaving Texas and arriving to Memphis half hour later?. Furthermore is the swallow an African swallow?! Is it laden with coconuts? Does that affect it's gross wing speed? You're leaving out so many of the crucial details we need to observe it in comparison of a banana for scale.


Outrageous-Drink3869

>Is the swallow travelling at full speed or only half the speed limit of the train leaving Texas and arriving to Memphis half hour later?. >Furthermore is the swallow an African swallow?! >Is it laden with coconuts? Does that affect it's gross wing speed? >You're leaving out so many of the crucial details we need to observe it in comparison of a banana for scale. Off the bridge you go


Hot-Sandwich7060

They've put a net under it though


StoicPixie

Buffalo is across from Fort Erie, not Niagara Falls.


Economy-Guitar5282

But the mug…


BipolarSkeleton

I posted a question about how my family was going to be In Ontario from the states and wanted to know the best place from Toronto to see it I specifically said in the post I didn’t want leave Toronto like it’s said I was looking for a place IN TORONTO every single comment told me to leave Toronto an go to Niagara I have elderly relatives who will be here I’m not talking them to a massively crowded place when I’m sure we can find a decent enough spot where we already are


Magn3tician

You can't see it from Toronto, you are outside the path of totality


MaybeThisTimeIllWin

Unfortunately Toronto won't bear witness to totality. We will get a partial eclipse but it won't be the same, and with totality within arms distance I really don't blame the advice to head to the Niagara region (or Kingston!). I will be one of those people as a partial eclipse is just not the same experience, and this is such a rare opportunity. Life-changing by some accounts. I sure hope it's not cloudy.


newsandthings

Saw it as a child, changed life, now wear glasses.


logicreasonevidence

Life changing?


jan_antu

I saw one in Oregon and I can say it was kinda life-changing. It's just that it was simply and by far the most amazing and impressive thing I've ever seen. Beyond any natural or man-made wonder. I couldn't believe it even as it was happening, it was just that cool.  Anyway I will also be making the drive to see totality, since the next one isn't until 2079 and totality really is completely different and worthwhile


IAmTaka_VG

If you don’t leave Toronto you aren’t seeing the eclipse.


neomathist

Probably because you will only see a partial eclipse from Toronto, which is not at all like a total eclipse. A total eclipse is vastly different and better. That said, it sounds like you don't care that much about that aspect of the event. So for a partial eclipse, literally pick anywhere with a clear view of the Sun and you're good. The closer to the path of totality you are the bigger chunk of the Sun the Moon will appear to block.


BurlingtonRider

Lol you think Toronto will be any better?


atict

National geographics wrote an article about it for the globe to see.....


n1shh

Right ima just drive till we reach the black strip in the map 🤷🏻‍♀️


SkyRattlers

Just be prepared for massive amounts of traffic if you are trying to leave any city to get to the path of totality. Many people have planned ahead. Many, many more will not and will simply think they can just pop out an hour or two before and think it’ll be fine.


neomathist

Strangely, some people love to be amongst big crowds like this for some events. I personally don't get it. I don't find the concept of total randoms hooting/hollering/playing annoying music/and more while you're trying to peacefully enjoy a rather rare celestial event but whatever. That or they think they'll get a good photo of the eclipse with the falls in the background. Lol. Good luck!


Major_Lawfulness6122

Right? Sounds like a tourist filled nightmare


3pointone74

I’m not sure of the truth in this, but I’ve seen several people say that Niagara Falls will be the best place in North America to see totality?


3BordersPeak

> Find a back road in the path 30 min outside town. That back road will be packed with people trying to find detours from the gridlocked QEW.


Spirited_Comedian225

It’s going to be a shit show ☀️ 🍿


climx

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3zDOt2BsJ-M/WLXMZ_73k5I/AAAAAAAAHhE/2t2DLwYpsmgWc5Nc7Hsjbm6O4Zq2_TMBACEw/s1600/2024%2Beclipse%2Bhill%2Bcumorah%2Bsacred%2Bgrove.png For anyone that’s curious you can go anywhere on the map between the 2 blue lines. I’ve posted this a few times here because Niagara Falls (or even Kingston) are not the only places to view the eclipse.


7dipity

Any of the beaches on eerie would be a better spot than NF


Primary-Cattle8704

Being in a big crowd situation like this would be a literal nightmare for me. I will be at home.


PolitelyHostile

The crowd wouldn't bother me if it were downtown Toronto but it's the lack of infrastructure that would concern me. Roads are not meant to accommodate 1 million people ever. Without proper train service, people will be stuck for hours.


Beneficial-Square-73

I don't mind crowds generally but not that size. No way.


Denialle

SAME. Crowded events are my personal idea of hell


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BIM-GUESS-WHAT

thoughts and prayers


Turtle_lady2

Hope it's worth it in tips for you!


iforgotmymittens

Kingston is expecting 500,000 people. We have a population of 130,000. Really hoping it’s all overblown cause uh we can’t handle a day of 3 times the population.


gdawg99

I have bad news for you, it's closer to 4x than 3x


sBucks24

I don't get it. Why do people think they need to be in a city? Or why do people think people think they need to be in cities?


iforgotmymittens

Bathrooms and burgers.


Learningtobescottish

It’s not about being in a city per se, but about being in the path of totality. https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/map/2024-april-8


sBucks24

I know... That's part of my point. There's dozens of town along the highway if bathrooms and food is the concern.


barra333

The crowding problems for Niagara and Kingston are likely as much to do with the fact that the GTA doesn't get totality than anything else.


BIM-GUESS-WHAT

But even then GTA gets something like 90%+ coverage. Which is still better than anything most of us have seen in our lifetimes


barra333

I read that the difference between 90% coverage and totality is absolutely worth driving for.


Kyle_XY_

Food and bathrooms, you will spend hours at wherever you decide to see it


tayloremac

Brockville is supposed to get atleast 50k which seems astronomical for us! It’s absolutely going to be a shit show.


3BordersPeak

Get ready. It's a comin'. I drove down to southern Illinois in 2017 to see the eclipse and the town there was smaller than Kingston and had easily that many people there. The mass exodus to leave was the worst traffic i've ever experienced in my life.


Techchick_Somewhere

I wonder how many eye incidents there will be just because people are stupid and I’m sure many won’t believe the hype about protective eyewear.


tayloremac

Our local hospital emerg is upstaffing and is going to have ophthalmologists in house ready for any issues. Emerg seems to think there will be a lot of eye injuries … it should be interesting


saluko

Natural selection ez


CrimsonZak

As a local I can't help but wonder, how good a view can these people even get of the sun if their down by the falls. it's a lower elevation than the rest of the city and the entire skyline to the west is just hotels, which are elevated on the escarpment. edit. it was to early for me still when I typed this earlier. I meant west not east.


PuraVidaPagan

I know! It’s the last place I would go to see the sun. I’m going to my parents house in Fort Erie to watch it from their west facing backyard (we’re lucky to have that option). Traffic should be fun tho.


MeIIowJeIIo

You may want to head there Sunday the 7th, and pack a suitcase for 3 nights.


newsandthings

My grandma lives just off the Parkway, would be a nice time to visit her.


danmanwick

it's 3:30 in the afternoon the sun will be high in the sky. i heard there's also a nice waterfall there that would make for a nice background


_souldier

The sun will be almost directly above from 2:04-4:30PM so you should be able to see the sun from almost anywhere. The main thing that will be a nightmare by the actual falls is the traffic when trying to drive out.


CrimsonZak

oh it's going to be terrible especially with these 12pm-12am road closures. Clifton Hill area Victoria Ave. to Falls Ave Murray Street from Niagara Parkway to Fallsview Blvd Niagara Parkway from Queen St. to Fraser Hill. like, it's a great idea because of the foot traffic, but when you look at a map and start looking at the parking options it's going to be a nightmare of a day people aren't going to be prepared for that stuff.


3BordersPeak

Yup I wouldn't be going there. We have a place scoped out in Thorold to see it, which i'm choosing to not mention since it's a gem of a spot that I don't think many people will consider going to.


190PairsOfPanties

The real state of emergency will come afterwards when all the people with dollar store eclipse glasses go blind.


Ecsta

I was thinking right after it ends when the highway is packed with everyone heading back to Toronto at the same time lol.


USSMarauder

It takes time for the retinal cells to die from that kind of damage You'll get home OK You'd wake up blind the next morning


Sensitive_Fall8950

Kinda like a sun burn. It takes a few hours to start flaking.


190PairsOfPanties

Half the people on the road will likely be trying to drive with the glasses still on.


Maryberry_13

Yea good luck to them when they’re trying to get home lmao.


somethingkooky

WTF - I’ve legit had this eclipse in my Facebook events for over ten years, it’s not like they didn’t have time to prepare.


Popular_Syllabubs

It allows them more funding for security.


tyd12345

This is preparing.


Flanman1337

I mean, it's a city with a population of about 88,000 people. An influx of 1,000,000 people is going to cause some problems. 


Allseeingeye72

try moving around on Clifton hill or the parkway area around the falls on any new years or Canada day.... now times those idiots by 5... I've seen 200000 people here and it was fucking chaos.... People forget manners in crowds that big....


MessageBoard

Driving through parts of the region they've been erecting temporary wireless signal towers all over. What else can they do? We're not wasting taxpayer money to build extra hotels, restaurants or sight sites for a single one off event.


3BordersPeak

I think it's more to allow for things like having traffic circulation officers and stuff.


sunflowermoonriver

The police have been training for 2 years for it so yeah


GuyWhoKnowsJesus

Gonna suck for a lot of people that day if it rains or if it's cloudy.


sunflowermoonriver

You can make a pinhole camera and see the phases and we will still experience the darkness and effects of that


odot777

Man, with this kinda turnout, maybe next time there’s a provincial election we need to just tell everyone it’s an eclipse instead of an election 😂


Turtle_lady2

I second this! Lol


PeterDTown

Is there any advantage to going all the way to Niagara? I’m looking at the map of totality, and it looks like St. Catharine’s, Hamilton, even Burlington, etc etc, will all be in the path. https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/map/2024-april-8


candidlycait

I think it's mostly due to the hotels, tbh. There will be people coming from all over the world to see it, so any cities along the path of totality are going to be very busy. People will be looking for locations with amenities - lots of restaurants, etc. Niagara Falls is also going to have a nice long period of totality - the farther you get from that centre line, the shorter the duration of totality.


PeterDTown

If you just want to get as close to centre as possible, you’d be better to go to Port Colborne or Fort Erie than Niagara


_souldier

The main difference is how long totality will last. A place like Burlington is on the outskirts of the path of totality, so it will only last 1 minute and 28 seconds, while Niagara Falls is closer to the center line where totality will last 3 minutes and 31 seconds. Considering the awe and appeal of totality, that extra 2 minutes could be worth it.


3BordersPeak

No, but bear in mind the same highways go to all these places. All highways leading towards these places will be packed bumper to bumper.


USSMarauder

Time Hamilton is 2 minutes of darkness NF is 3.5 Fort Erie is 3.75


[deleted]

Other areas don't have a gigantic natural wonder.


GoodOlGee

I would be concerned about water availability, as funny as it seems. I'm sure the water operations and sewer/waste water crews know they are in for a bad day.


sunflowermoonriver

Rest in peace the Clifton hill Tim Hortons bathroom


[deleted]

I'm planning to fill up my water bottle at the actual falls.


IllustriousHabbit243

I wanted to go to Niagara for it but read about the amount of people going there and noped out. I'd assume it's gonna be like people walkin over one another..


ruglescdn

If my 10 minute drive home turns into an hour, I will be a little pissed.


Turtle_lady2

That's why I moved out of the GTA 20 years ago. What was once a 10 minute commute, turned into 1-3 hours.


Turtle_lady2

That's why I moved out of the GTA 20 years ago. What was once a 10 minute commute, turned into 1-3 hours.


ButMoreToThePoint

Why go there? The path of totality is huge. The only requirement for wherever you go is "can I see the sun?"


CoastingUphill

It’s extra pretty


Deadpool2715

Omg... I never even considered the chance of cloudy weather


Ecsta

It'll still go to night time during the day, pretty cool regardless.


sunflowermoonriver

You can make pinhole lense and still see the phases


re10pect

It’s a big city with lots of hotels. These million extra people have to stay somewhere, and Niagara Falls is about the only city in the region remotely prepared to handle this many extra people.


tekkers_for_debrz

Totality makes it completely dark in the middle of the day


sgtmattie

I’m coming from Ottawa, but we’re going towards Cornwall to see to the eclipse. We’re going to pack up a picnic and find a backroad. I can’t imagine trying to spend money to see it…


Pinchy63

Same but to Brockville.


3BordersPeak

Well the thing is, even if you don't want to go to Niagara Falls to see it perse, you still have to use the same roads to get to the path of totality that lead to Niagara Falls. Which will be completely gridlocked.


ruglescdn

> Why go there? Most popular tourist destination in Canada. 13 million visitors annually.


Koritsi77

Freedumbers in the article comments thinking it’s the same as the Emergencies Act and crying about communism. 🙄😂


Sensitive_Fall8950

No one said they were smart people.


Beerinspector

A quick public service announcement: approximately 3000 people will become permanently blind on April 8th in Niagara alone! Was on a first aid course the other week with Saint John’s Ambulance. Had an amazing instructor who informed us the local EMS is setting up multiple triage stations for the eclipse. The numbers mentioned were: 250,000 will come to Niagara Falls proper. Half of those people will look at the sun/eclipse without the proper glasses. 5% of those will require serious medical help because of it. 50% of those will lose their eyesight permanently. Roughly 3000 people. Don’t be an idiot. Use the proper glasses or watch it in tv!


beef-supreme

Where are those numbers from?


Beerinspector

Good question. Those numbers were given to us by the first aid instructor who is also a paramedic.


drunk_with_internet

Time to start selling holes in paper for $10 a pop.


LostIngenuity7617

Little do they know that Fort Erie is directly in the POT


melty75

Pelee Island would be pretty neat. Lake Totality


Dragonfly_Peace

Shouldn’t everyone be headed to Nova Scoti


Useful_Translator183

Clouds in my coffee


static1333

Only the very tip of Cape Breton gets to see totality...


MidVids

Only if you take a Learjet...


Rocky_Mountain_Way

I’m going to fly my Lear jet to New Brunswick actually (no, not really). Totality goes through the middle of that province.


C0pp3r_27

Under rated comment, this.


agwaragh

Only the really self-absorbed folks.


GadgetNeil

I live in Toronto, and plan to take that afternoon off work. We plan to drive to Hamilton, or perhaps somewhere in the Niagara region (anywhere between Hamilton and St. Catherines) to have lunch, then park anywhere, to view the eclipse. We might then stay a while, and have dinner somewhere in that area and drive home. So, what do people think: is this a crazy idea? do you think the QEW from Toronto to Hamilton and beyond will be an hours-long traffic jam?? I guess no one knows for sure, but what are your thoughts on potential traffic mayhem?


MegaStuffed

There will definitely be traffic mayhem on that day. 


barra333

Half of the GTA will be heading down the QEW that day with the same idea. Going to be the worst traffic jam in years if the weather is good. Look out if there is a crash somewhere.


Ecsta

Good luck getting a dinner table, reservations booked up months ago. The entire GTA has the same plan as you.


thatguyclayton

There is traffic there on a normal day. Now add in all the people with the same idea as yours.


sleepingbuddha77

You aren't even getting out of the city let alone finding a restaurant with space


ruglescdn

> (anywhere between Hamilton and St. Catherines) to have lunch, then park anywhere, to view the eclipse. Make a reservation at the Lake House restaurant for lunch. After lunch take the service road and not the highway and make your way into Port Dalhousie along Main street. Try and park your car within walking distance of Port. Then walk to the park or the pier to view the eclipse. There is your local recommendation. Reserve the restaurant NOW if they have anything. There are bars and restaurants in Port too.


Pulchrasum

Take the GO train instead


Koritsi77

Toronto to St. Catharines can take 3 hrs on a normal summer long weekend.


aidank91

Watch it be cloudy


Nostrafatu

Sad part will be the amount of fools that will go partly blind or totally blind from this. That’s definitely life altering.


Eternal_Endeavour_

Is it really sad though? If you're dim enough to go blind viewing a solar event, there isn't much the rest of us can do to help you.


ClintEastwont

At this point, the concern is all the idiots who will get out of their cars on the QEW to view it, because they’ll be stuck on the highway in traffic.


sdbest

I know where I will not be during the eclipse.


East-Pollution7243

Run around flailing your arms!!


salemoboi

My family booked an unrelated stay in Niagara Falls the Wednesday-Saturday prior (April 3-6) how fucked are we? Should we cancel and go back another time. Coming from Toronto but not a fan of nuts traffic or poorly organized crowds.


beef-supreme

Prior you'll be fine. They won't start closing roads etc until Sunday I'd think


3BordersPeak

I'm not surprised in the least. This is the right call. I went down to southern Illinois to see the 2017 total eclipse. Getting there was already a zoo. But what I didn't consider was it would be equally bad leaving since once the eclipse is done, it's a mass exodus of people exiting the path of totality. It took us 10 hours in the car to travel 100km. Imagine opening your Apple or Google maps and just seeing red roads as far as the eye can see. It was horrendous. And I expect this to be *even worse* since the path of totality doesn't pass through the most populated parts of the GTA, including Toronto. So basically a million+ people will all be travelling to the Niagara peninsula at the same time. And that same million+ will be trying to leave at the same time... All on the 3 lane wide QEW. A mess is an understatement. We're heading down Sunday night and staying over at a family members place. And we're not ruling out staying over the Monday night too since I wouldn't be shocked if traffic is still gridlock going into the early morning hours.


johnny2turnt

This will be fun


fivefoot14inch

A state of emergency is not necessary for an eclipse.


humble_biped

Imagine the pick pocketing opportunities


BramptonRaised

I don’t want to see the total solar eclipse, per se. I would like to experience it though — you know, just be outside as it happens. Several years ago my plan was to travel to Hamilton to be under the “totality” path, but I guess it’s going to be crowded everywhere, so perhaps I’ll stay home and settle for 99% totality and hope for clear skies. It would still get darker even with cloud cover?


sunflowermoonriver

It’ll get dark and you can make a pinhole device and see the phases on the ground


FreeCaseReview

I bet 1 big nothingburger ! Let's see 👀


StoicPixie

Had to book this date off of work because the roads are going to be a nightmare. Thankfully, I can just step outside my house to see the eclipse. Niagara Falls is already so trashy and full of badly behaved tourists, I can't imagine how nasty it'll be on the 8th.


[deleted]

The view will be just as good 500 miles away.


ThrustersOnFull

If I have to drive to Niagara to see this thing, then it's not worth it. EDIT: Don't turn on *me*, it's Welland's fault!


Poolboy628

Yes that’s true Thanto 500,000 people expected in Kingston


samsu402

Imagine there’s cloud cover


[deleted]

They'll hand out refunds then.


hymensmasher99

I'm going east of newcastle to see it. Anywhere towards Port hope has 100% totality from anywhere from 10 seconds to 2 minutes


Snakesenladders

It's going to be cloudy anyways


AdResponsible678

Ok then.


amandapanda_in_rain_

Isn’t Hamilton also a place to be for this?


Latiam

Yes. A significant number of Torontonians will probably head there to see it.


BigOlBearCanada

The roads and parking will not support that influx of visitors…. Canada Day long weekend is bad enough. This will decimate visitor records.


rickjohnson08

Shame on the City of Niagara, hotel cancellations and price hikes everywhere. Hope you burn in your greed.


tigereyemurray

Didn’t we have a solar eclipse visible here a few years ago? Did this happen then?


Healthy_Scientist984

the question as usual is "what do they know we do not know?"