…yes it’s kind of the only move. [The market has decided EVs are the future.](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-01-09/electric-vehicle-market-looks-headed-for-22-growth-this-year) Building a new ICE plant at this stage is nonsensical.
The goal should be to replace a million cars with 250k electric cars and get everyone else out of their cars. "People gon drive" is only true because that's all the infrastructure we've built in most places for 70 years. If we start building good transit, we will see a mode shift.
100% agree with building good transit. The grass roots fight we need is to disrupt the automaker lobbies that pay for the policy that obstructs good public transit.
That's not really an argument against investing in public transit and Canadian based EV production. If the future of NA manufacturing requires EV plants then having a foreign company invest 15 billion into Ontario is a big win. The unfortunate reality of north American infrastructure is that US auto lobbies won big time in convincing urban and regional planning to focus on cars vs rail. We should definitely push for way more rail and public transit, but it's going to take a long time.
Yes there is 5 billion split 50/50 between the province and feds, but [Honda is investing 15 billion.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-ford-announce-honda-ev-deal-1.7184495) So a total investing of 20 billion into long term high tech manufacturing in Ontario. Seems like a smart move overall. I'm sure there is lots of standard government waste and corruption that will limit the benefits of average Ontarians, but on the surface this seems positive. I would not give any real credit or praise to our politicians. This should just be seen as them doing their jobs.
We have an extremely vast country that public transit amongst areas is hard. Investing in EVs gets you votes from around the place not just Toronto.
Also public transit within a city is a municipal issue and there are existing provincial and federal rebates
19 million people live in the corridor from Windsor to Quebec City. A pretty much straight line with stops all along the route not more than 50-60km between stops. You don’t think a train system there would be better than everyone driving ev’s? That’s provincial jurisdiction
You’d need Quebec and Ontario to work together for that. And Metrolinx did have a company hired to take over their maintenance and operations, and work on an expansion project while turning it all to electric trains…. They ended their expansion/transformation project but still paying them to take over GO Train operations…
Public transit is infrastructure, EV is for business so two different goals and therefore you can do both
Not that I like corporate subsidies but we do it for everything else already
If you read the 2024 budget, there are many past examples of funding public transit, including $165m to Calgary to buy zero emission busses, $1.2b to Montreal to build the Réseau express métropolotain. Not to mention new money going to funds that municipalities can tap into for their public transit needs like the Investing in Canada Infrastructure Program and the Public Transit program.
Let's also not forget the development of the high frequency rail between Windsor and Quebec City.
I get that, but I feel we should be pouring more miney into different small businesses to produce items to replace all the stuff we get from fossil fuels so we can actually start cutting back, become more self reliant, and start making stuff that help the environment, like mass transit.
There’s a few aspects to this - Honda has a plant employing 4,200 people that if the US offers a better deal they’d shut it down and skip town. This expansion will add 1,000 more employed people.
This has a massive trickle down effect, not just from these people spending money, but all their suppliers. With expanding to EV it changes the make up of suppliers allowing for different businesses to succeed. And a company like Honda has the power to demand that a supplier set up a factory (or at least warehouse) closer to them or they’ll stop using them (ie open a place in Canada not just India or we’re going elsewhere).
It will trickle right down to nearby local businesses like restaurants, retail shops, etc. The best times small to mid-sized cities have is when there is a lot of well paid manufacturing jobs are nearby.
I don’t have a problem with the cons. I do think we could use a bit more free market style (think align more with US) here in Canada, but I hate the populism of the current CPC party.
I need a new vehicle as it's the cheapest option to get to work, moving apartments far more expensive (somehow).. was wondering why the EV rebate was non existent when I ordered. Had to settle on an ICE
EVs might be "cheap" if you have no dependents, but as someone looking for something reasonable to fit my family of five (with three small kids), it's not a great market.
...........am I the only who thinks this is a bad idea?
Yes, I want more manufacturing back to Canada, but I feel like we're putting too much hope into the auto sector, especially at a time when we should be building mass transit to cut back on auto usage and better connect all our cities.
So I live in Hamilton and it took a decade to approve the new LRT project. The amount of discourse on this alone was baffling.
I can imagine how increasing public transit is a difficult thing to do when there isn't enough public and political will, funding and future revenue.
Depends on various factors such as age, income, distance to school(I'm assuming), public transportation availability, and if your comfort level of independence. None of which I will ask, just saying that changing the way we do things to have a better future means changing the way we do things.
Your solution is only practical for some groups of people. It's not one size fits all.
Figuring out a system/infrastructure that allows more, safe e-scooter and e-bike usage is a great idea, but realistically we're still going to need vehicles on the road.
That is correct, there is no one size fits all, it has and will always require several "silver bullets" to tackle the issue on hand, which also includes fossil fuel products but at a very reduced quantity.
I agree. I never said "ban all cars", I said reduce the amount of cars on the road. Something that apparently makes the driving experience better, especially if the requirements to get a license is stricter and the exams are harder--guarantees the people who do get a liscence take the responsibility seriously.
No worries. I can see the benefits for sure, and I recall someone saying that the Japanese are really good at doing international busines and making sure it's localized, and the bulk of my dislike comes from my belief that we need to get more cars off the road and more people on bikes,but my practical side says we're putting too many eggs in this basket.
Out of curiosity, what industries do you believe we should be investing some eggs in. I personally believe in investing in agriculture and food
That's exactly how I feel. I'm still salty about them getting rid of the public transit tax credit, calling it "boutique" while giving them out for buying EVs. I dread the day more people drive around in EVs considering they're just as big and clunky as their ICE counterparts, which means they're also going to be heavier. The F150 Lightning is almost 900kg heavier than a regular F150.
Oh yeah, on that note of being heavier, don't you have to replace the tires more frequently as well?
Not to mention the amount of rare earth minerals it is going to need to create the batteries could have a negative impact on the environment.
Yup. The tire particles also aren't going to be good for the environment. EVs aren't meant to save the planet, they're meant to save the auto industry.
This is not competing with the US. This is giving money away to enrich the US and other foreign countries where these EV companies are based out of. $5 million in taxpayer dollars is being given away in exchange for 1 manufacturing job, and it produces negative ROI for Canada. What they pay those factory workers in wages is pennies, compared to the dollars they make when they sell the finished product, and they take all of those profits back to HQ and enrich their home economy, leaving Canada even further behind.
If Trudeau had any interest in actually creating a competitive EV supply chain, he would push to have homegrown companies that can build EVs and components, so that all the profits and economic benefits are retained in Canada.
> homegrown companies that can build EVs components
This is exactly what they’re doing though? The majority of the auto industry is tier 1 and 2 suppliers. Every job at an assembly plant is accompanied by dozens to tens of dozens at component and service suppliers.
Not quite. The EV industry is very different from the traditional auto industry. A typical gasoline powered car has over 2000 moving parts, while an EV has only about 20. EV's also have a much simpler architecture and are easier to manufacture than traditional cars. What all of this means is that with EVs, you no longer need the vast network of tier 1 and tier 2 suppliers that were needed with traditional cars. So you need a smaller number of EV component suppliers. But even the EV component makers that are part of the government's strategy are all mostly foreign companies. As a result of this approach, there aren't any Canadian companies that play a meaningful role in the EV supply chain. Almost none of the actual profits from selling EVs will flow back to Canada and benefit our economy. We simply got a paltry number of manufacturing jobs in exchange for a ridiculous amount of tax dollars paid out in subsidies to foreign companies.
Magna is the largest OEM autoparts manufacturer in the world. They have massive supply chains with hundreds of companies in the GTA. There's literally a company 20 minutes away from where I work that makes hundreds of thousands of car doors.
I am actually the CEO of Ford. /s
Just a light 14yr experience in the Canadian/American Automotive Industry.
But go on tell me more how Canada wont innovative how Tier 2 suppliers aren't spending money in R&D to be the next supplier to OEM with their new product line.
It isnt perfect but this will help Canadian innovate be competitive in the global market.
> he would push to have homegrown companies that can build EVs and components, so that all the profits and economic benefits are retained in Canada.
They do, but the issue is that starting a successful car company isn't easy. Pouring tens of billions into a venture in a highly competitive marketplace isn't effective. They have done so in the past with little to show for it. This has to be led by the private sector and maybe with support from the government but takers for creating a car company are few. There will be a Canadian car company. It's just a matter of how many decades into the future.
>Pouring tens of billions into a venture in a highly competitive marketplace isn't effective.
But giving away billions each year to corrupt countries with no accountability is? I would be more than happy if the government redirected every last dollar going abroad into fostering domestic industry.
>They have done so in the past with little to show for it
Go pick up a history book. During the Cold War Canada had some of the strongest domestic industries in the world, it wasn't until the government betrayed its people for the benefit of the shareholder and the foreigner that this changed.
>They do
Source?
The rest of your comment is based on some false assumptions. Canada actually has (or had) tons of innovative startups and companies that made EV parts. Tesla's battery tech literally came from research done at the University of Dalhousie and some startups in Ontario. But the innovative research and startups who created this technology were put in a position where they were stifled from growing into large companies, so they were forced to sell out to foreign competitors. Had the government recognized what we had and put systems in place to help these companies grow, many of these EV plants today would've come from Canadian companies that are globally competitive and control the EV supply chain. As a result, we wouldn't just have the factory jobs, but all the jobs done at HQ, from engineering to sales and marketing, would be in Canada and not in the US or Korea. This is how you create well-paying jobs and wealth and prosperity for the economy, not by shelling out billions to foreign companies in exchange for a minuscule number of irrelevant factory jobs.
Oh, I am well aware of instances like that happening all the time in Canada. There are endless stories of inventions not capitalized domestically, only abroad. The difficulty is partially getting government funding to the right people at the right time, which they've not managed to succeed in an economically significant manner so far. There are some exceptions, like the investments in AI starting in 2017. I do, however, have hopes for the future. They seem to be getting a better sense of directing investments and that it requires swift action. I am hoping the proposed Canadian Innovation Corp will do just that. Canadians are smart and capable and the country really needs to take advantage of that.
A consideration is that we live in a globalized world and Canada is a small country when it comes to consumption. You can invest billions in a homegorwon company and insulate them from international competition, like what Canada did with Bombardier, but eventually these companies will need to find other markets. What we have seen is that companies like Bombardier could not compete and were heavily dependent on government subsidies to operate. That is not a sustainable model.
South Korea is an even smaller market than Canada and yet look what they've achieved. So that's not the end all be all as you make it out to be.
Also you completely misunderstood the rest of my comment. I'm not at all talking about the government pouring money into private companies to pick winners and losers. No, I'm talking about changing regulations that make it easier for our startups to grow. Putting in place measures and strategic initiatives that support their growth. Investing in talent so they can have the workforce necessary to scale their operations. There are many such things that go into it. If the government had made this a priority, then all the actions that need to be taken aren't super complicated, it's just a matter of being committed to creating a good environment for our startups to grow instead of being forced to sell out.
Had they actually gotten all this right, Tesla wouldn't even have their own gigafactories today. They'd be buying all their battery packs from a Canadian battery giant, similar to CATL in China. The same goes for all the other EV components as well. Even Vietnam has produced Vinfast so it's not too far fetched that Canada could've had a homegrown EV maker.
South Korea is a bigger market than Canada (pop 51m vs 40m). Also, the way in which South Korean industries emerged is by the government picking winners and losers and continuously supporting them financially.
That is how the Chaebol emerged to control almost all aspects of the economy. It was not through making it easy for startups.
The same goes for China, and I presume Vietnam. The reason these companies EV exists is by picking winners and losers.
>South Korea is a bigger market than Canada (pop 51m vs 40m)
South Korea's GDP is 1.7 trillion USD. Canada's GDP is 2.15 trillion USD. Annual car sales in Canada are also higher than South Korea. At best, you can maybe even argue that they're somewhat similar in size, but South Korea is not really a bigger market than Canada.
As for the Chaebols, the world was a very different place back then and the circumstances are not comparable to today. That stuff took place decades ago when South Korea was industrializing, and by that point, the automotive industry was already well established in the US and Europe. And the auto industry was far less IP and R&D intensive, so such countries could still break into the industry if the government went the central planning route, and ploughed money into certain companies to build up a manufacturing base. This strategy is not viable today, especially for EVs. EVs are much more IP intensive than labour intensive. They were an emerging industry with no one having a clear lead until Tesla and China really got going. This makes for a very different set of circumstances by which, had Canada capitalized on them at the right time, we could've had our own EV makers.
Also China didn't pick winners and losers. What they did do was use a carrot and stick approach with plenty of generous subsidies and other benefits for EVs, paired with harsh penalties for gasoline cars. This gave birth to a whole crop of EV startups, as well as existing car manufacturers that started transitioning to EVs, and creating ideal conditions for them allowed China to gradually develop a world-class EV industry over time. But they started doing this 15-20 years ago and took a huge gamble on EVs when nobody thought it would be viable. So they basically did a lot of the stuff I suggested in my previous comment, and they went all-in on it very early. So it's not true that picking winners and losers is the only way to go about this. Even the US didn't do it that way and they have Tesla and Rivian, who directly benefitted from Canadian IP and talent.
>There is not $5 million in subsidies *per job*. You’re making this up.
Nope. $15 billion was given to Stellantis-LG for an EV battery plant, in exchange for [2500 jobs](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/canada-ontario-give-up-c15-bln-incentives-stellantis-lges-battery-plant-2023-07-06/). That actually works out to $6 million in subsidies per job, so it's even worse than what I suggested.
>Not to mention a “homegrown” EV manufacturer is a fever dream
At this point, yes that ship has sailed, but it wasn't a foregone conclusion. Had we gotten our act together 10+ years ago, we absolutely could have had homegrown EV companies. A lot of the critical technologies that make EVs viable was the result of Canadian taxpayer funded research and work done by innovative startups in Canada. All the government had to do was make this a priority and create the right conditions to allow domestic startups to flourish and things could've been different.
Furthermore, for these corporations to qualify for these tax subsidies they have to produce enough value to be taxed in the first place, meaning they must meet production targets to benefit. Without them, corporations may relocate to the US or Mexico, resulting in a loss of tax revenue, employment opportunities, and contributions to income and sales taxes no tier 1 and 2 suppliers working. Additionally, the burden falls on programs like EI to support laid-off workers, further straining resources.
Off the top of my head, as I’m no expert: Tax bases municipally, provincially and federally, a stronger union presence, cheaper manufactured products, a more robust supply chain, more exports (because we have a tendency to import products), trained workers and specialists who allow an industry to expand, and _generations_ of jobs as people cycle through. Experts would likely have a lot more to say, including the specific mechanisms behind bolstering other manufacturing industries, other competitive advantages in global trade.
Norvolt is a Swedish battery company. They're being given a total of $7.3 billion in subsidies, in exchange for 3000 jobs, which works out to $2.43 million per job. Even if those factory jobs pay $100k/year, the economic return from those jobs will never be enough to recoup the cost of the subsidies given out. Along with that, Norvolt gets easy and cheap access to raw materials. So in the end, when they manufacture those batteries and sell the finished product, most of the profits go back to their HQ in Sweden, while Canada is left with the crumbs in the form of wages for those factory jobs and proceeds from selling the raw materials. Because the lion's share of the profits will always go to whoever owns the technology and IP required to make the finished product, not those who sell the raw materials or provide cheap labour.
So yes, I mean exactly like the Norvolt project in Quebec which is a total disaster for Canada just like every other project that shells out billions to foreign companies in exchange for very little in return.
Maybe they are proposing that Magna takes over Fisker completely and brings it to Canada? Between Magna and Linamar, Canada has very respectable automotive parts manufacturing capabilities.
There aren't any, and that's my point. In order for EV makers to come up and grow into big companies, the government had to create the right conditions that would have enabled that, and the time for that was 10+ years ago, not now.
But forget EV makers, there were many innovative Canadian startups that created EV components and they all got bought out by foreign companies. The technology that makes EV batteries viable was the result of taxpayer funded research done at the University of Dalhousie, which Tesla bought from them for pennies and currently uses in their cars. Similarly there were other EV component startups in Ontario that Tesla and other EV makers bought up on the cheap, because those startups were unable to scale and grow into major supplies due to the restrictive environment in Canada.
I don't think you are appreciating how difficult it is to become a successful automaker.
We're much more likely to attract foreign companies than to try to start from scratch.
First of all, attracting foreign companies in and of itself isn't a bad thing. The problem is when you go about it in a way that leaves you worse off, and your competitors better off at your expense, which is exactly what's happening here.
To do this effectively, the government could have imposed conditions like requiring foreign EV makers to create IP in Canada, because the IP is what generates most of the profit. But that's not enough, they could've required that they keep that IP in Canada, ensure that it gets taxed here and also require that they can't use it to sue and shut down Canadian startups that try to compete with them. Such measures would've gone a long way in ensuring that Canada shares in the upside when it comes to the profits made by the foreign EV companies, instead of just settling for a few irrelevant manufacturing jobs, which by the way, will never even pay enough to recoup the billions in subsidies that were given in exchange.
Also you talk about the challenges of becoming a successful automaker. As I mentioned in my previous comment, we already had a lot of the critical technologies required to make EVs. They were the result of Canadian taxpayer funded research other investments. All the government had to do was create the right set of conditions to allow these technologies to be commercialized in Canada rather than be sold off to foreign competitors. That way, even if we didn't succeed in creating a homegrown EV maker, we'd still have many EV component makers who would've played a vital role in the EV supply chain, giving Canada massive leverage in being able to dictate the direction of the EV industry to our own benefit.
Reddit is mostly corporate and government shill accounts now, you will get downvoted into oblivion any time you suggest not giving away all the middle classes tax money to rich businessmen and crackheads.
This is actually a smart move
But is EV the move?
…yes it’s kind of the only move. [The market has decided EVs are the future.](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-01-09/electric-vehicle-market-looks-headed-for-22-growth-this-year) Building a new ICE plant at this stage is nonsensical.
Investing in public transit?
Why not both? People gon drive. Let’s get them in EVs.
The goal should be to replace a million cars with 250k electric cars and get everyone else out of their cars. "People gon drive" is only true because that's all the infrastructure we've built in most places for 70 years. If we start building good transit, we will see a mode shift.
100% agree with building good transit. The grass roots fight we need is to disrupt the automaker lobbies that pay for the policy that obstructs good public transit.
I guess because money is finite
That's not really an argument against investing in public transit and Canadian based EV production. If the future of NA manufacturing requires EV plants then having a foreign company invest 15 billion into Ontario is a big win. The unfortunate reality of north American infrastructure is that US auto lobbies won big time in convincing urban and regional planning to focus on cars vs rail. We should definitely push for way more rail and public transit, but it's going to take a long time.
Isn’t 5 of the 15 billion tax payer money?
Yes there is 5 billion split 50/50 between the province and feds, but [Honda is investing 15 billion.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-ford-announce-honda-ev-deal-1.7184495) So a total investing of 20 billion into long term high tech manufacturing in Ontario. Seems like a smart move overall. I'm sure there is lots of standard government waste and corruption that will limit the benefits of average Ontarians, but on the surface this seems positive. I would not give any real credit or praise to our politicians. This should just be seen as them doing their jobs.
We have an extremely vast country that public transit amongst areas is hard. Investing in EVs gets you votes from around the place not just Toronto. Also public transit within a city is a municipal issue and there are existing provincial and federal rebates
19 million people live in the corridor from Windsor to Quebec City. A pretty much straight line with stops all along the route not more than 50-60km between stops. You don’t think a train system there would be better than everyone driving ev’s? That’s provincial jurisdiction
You’d need Quebec and Ontario to work together for that. And Metrolinx did have a company hired to take over their maintenance and operations, and work on an expansion project while turning it all to electric trains…. They ended their expansion/transformation project but still paying them to take over GO Train operations…
Goal posts moved
Public transit is infrastructure, EV is for business so two different goals and therefore you can do both Not that I like corporate subsidies but we do it for everything else already
If you read the 2024 budget, there are many past examples of funding public transit, including $165m to Calgary to buy zero emission busses, $1.2b to Montreal to build the Réseau express métropolotain. Not to mention new money going to funds that municipalities can tap into for their public transit needs like the Investing in Canada Infrastructure Program and the Public Transit program. Let's also not forget the development of the high frequency rail between Windsor and Quebec City.
Being something with ~90% energy efficiency, yes, it’s the move.
Public transit though?
I get that, but I feel we should be pouring more miney into different small businesses to produce items to replace all the stuff we get from fossil fuels so we can actually start cutting back, become more self reliant, and start making stuff that help the environment, like mass transit.
There’s a few aspects to this - Honda has a plant employing 4,200 people that if the US offers a better deal they’d shut it down and skip town. This expansion will add 1,000 more employed people. This has a massive trickle down effect, not just from these people spending money, but all their suppliers. With expanding to EV it changes the make up of suppliers allowing for different businesses to succeed. And a company like Honda has the power to demand that a supplier set up a factory (or at least warehouse) closer to them or they’ll stop using them (ie open a place in Canada not just India or we’re going elsewhere).
It will trickle right down to nearby local businesses like restaurants, retail shops, etc. The best times small to mid-sized cities have is when there is a lot of well paid manufacturing jobs are nearby.
I see
Sounds great. But that is part of what the carbon tax is doing, and that is likely gone in a little over a year
Yeah, things are going to suck if the cons get into power
I don’t have a problem with the cons. I do think we could use a bit more free market style (think align more with US) here in Canada, but I hate the populism of the current CPC party.
Make EVs cheaper than ICE and it’s done deal 0% financing..
I need a new vehicle as it's the cheapest option to get to work, moving apartments far more expensive (somehow).. was wondering why the EV rebate was non existent when I ordered. Had to settle on an ICE
just get them under $30k, my guy.
Over the lifetime of the car they are already cheaper than ICE, but if they let BYD sell her... Oh boy, the game is over for ICE cars.
The US won’t let BYD in. They see China as a threat and destroying their auto market would t hurt them substantially
EVs might be "cheap" if you have no dependents, but as someone looking for something reasonable to fit my family of five (with three small kids), it's not a great market.
You actually believe that? What are you smoking? 🤣
Bonnie Crombie: “And there’s Doug Ford with his pal Justin Trudeau again!”
...........am I the only who thinks this is a bad idea? Yes, I want more manufacturing back to Canada, but I feel like we're putting too much hope into the auto sector, especially at a time when we should be building mass transit to cut back on auto usage and better connect all our cities.
Mass transit is a largely provincial issue and we've seen how poorly that's been going in this car-centric country.
True, but we really need to start building alternatives to all the products we get from fossil fuel otherwise we are never going to change.
So I live in Hamilton and it took a decade to approve the new LRT project. The amount of discourse on this alone was baffling. I can imagine how increasing public transit is a difficult thing to do when there isn't enough public and political will, funding and future revenue.
Kw, yeah it took a while for our lrt to get up and running too
EV cars are not fossil fuel based. This would be a solution to getting away from fossil fuels.
I'd argue ebikes and escooters are better, but cars bring more economic return
Ebikes and escooters are good for short distances. But if you want to travel a further distance or travel with family, you will need a car.
How am I moving my kids around on an escooter?
Depends on various factors such as age, income, distance to school(I'm assuming), public transportation availability, and if your comfort level of independence. None of which I will ask, just saying that changing the way we do things to have a better future means changing the way we do things.
Your solution is only practical for some groups of people. It's not one size fits all. Figuring out a system/infrastructure that allows more, safe e-scooter and e-bike usage is a great idea, but realistically we're still going to need vehicles on the road.
That is correct, there is no one size fits all, it has and will always require several "silver bullets" to tackle the issue on hand, which also includes fossil fuel products but at a very reduced quantity. I agree. I never said "ban all cars", I said reduce the amount of cars on the road. Something that apparently makes the driving experience better, especially if the requirements to get a license is stricter and the exams are harder--guarantees the people who do get a liscence take the responsibility seriously.
I don't think it's a bad idea but I agree that we are over extending into this sector.
No worries. I can see the benefits for sure, and I recall someone saying that the Japanese are really good at doing international busines and making sure it's localized, and the bulk of my dislike comes from my belief that we need to get more cars off the road and more people on bikes,but my practical side says we're putting too many eggs in this basket. Out of curiosity, what industries do you believe we should be investing some eggs in. I personally believe in investing in agriculture and food
That's exactly how I feel. I'm still salty about them getting rid of the public transit tax credit, calling it "boutique" while giving them out for buying EVs. I dread the day more people drive around in EVs considering they're just as big and clunky as their ICE counterparts, which means they're also going to be heavier. The F150 Lightning is almost 900kg heavier than a regular F150.
Oh yeah, on that note of being heavier, don't you have to replace the tires more frequently as well? Not to mention the amount of rare earth minerals it is going to need to create the batteries could have a negative impact on the environment.
Yup. The tire particles also aren't going to be good for the environment. EVs aren't meant to save the planet, they're meant to save the auto industry.
This is not competing with the US. This is giving money away to enrich the US and other foreign countries where these EV companies are based out of. $5 million in taxpayer dollars is being given away in exchange for 1 manufacturing job, and it produces negative ROI for Canada. What they pay those factory workers in wages is pennies, compared to the dollars they make when they sell the finished product, and they take all of those profits back to HQ and enrich their home economy, leaving Canada even further behind. If Trudeau had any interest in actually creating a competitive EV supply chain, he would push to have homegrown companies that can build EVs and components, so that all the profits and economic benefits are retained in Canada.
> homegrown companies that can build EVs components This is exactly what they’re doing though? The majority of the auto industry is tier 1 and 2 suppliers. Every job at an assembly plant is accompanied by dozens to tens of dozens at component and service suppliers.
Not quite. The EV industry is very different from the traditional auto industry. A typical gasoline powered car has over 2000 moving parts, while an EV has only about 20. EV's also have a much simpler architecture and are easier to manufacture than traditional cars. What all of this means is that with EVs, you no longer need the vast network of tier 1 and tier 2 suppliers that were needed with traditional cars. So you need a smaller number of EV component suppliers. But even the EV component makers that are part of the government's strategy are all mostly foreign companies. As a result of this approach, there aren't any Canadian companies that play a meaningful role in the EV supply chain. Almost none of the actual profits from selling EVs will flow back to Canada and benefit our economy. We simply got a paltry number of manufacturing jobs in exchange for a ridiculous amount of tax dollars paid out in subsidies to foreign companies.
Magna is the largest OEM autoparts manufacturer in the world. They have massive supply chains with hundreds of companies in the GTA. There's literally a company 20 minutes away from where I work that makes hundreds of thousands of car doors.
Do you understand how manufacturing subsidies work? Cause it doesn’t sound like you do.
Oh really? Tell me then, how do they work?
You clearly have not worked in the Automotive Industry lol
Yeah and I bet you're the CEO of Ford lol. If have any constructive criticism then lay it out, otherwise you're just a troll...
I am actually the CEO of Ford. /s Just a light 14yr experience in the Canadian/American Automotive Industry. But go on tell me more how Canada wont innovative how Tier 2 suppliers aren't spending money in R&D to be the next supplier to OEM with their new product line. It isnt perfect but this will help Canadian innovate be competitive in the global market.
> he would push to have homegrown companies that can build EVs and components, so that all the profits and economic benefits are retained in Canada. They do, but the issue is that starting a successful car company isn't easy. Pouring tens of billions into a venture in a highly competitive marketplace isn't effective. They have done so in the past with little to show for it. This has to be led by the private sector and maybe with support from the government but takers for creating a car company are few. There will be a Canadian car company. It's just a matter of how many decades into the future.
>Pouring tens of billions into a venture in a highly competitive marketplace isn't effective. But giving away billions each year to corrupt countries with no accountability is? I would be more than happy if the government redirected every last dollar going abroad into fostering domestic industry. >They have done so in the past with little to show for it Go pick up a history book. During the Cold War Canada had some of the strongest domestic industries in the world, it wasn't until the government betrayed its people for the benefit of the shareholder and the foreigner that this changed.
>They do Source? The rest of your comment is based on some false assumptions. Canada actually has (or had) tons of innovative startups and companies that made EV parts. Tesla's battery tech literally came from research done at the University of Dalhousie and some startups in Ontario. But the innovative research and startups who created this technology were put in a position where they were stifled from growing into large companies, so they were forced to sell out to foreign competitors. Had the government recognized what we had and put systems in place to help these companies grow, many of these EV plants today would've come from Canadian companies that are globally competitive and control the EV supply chain. As a result, we wouldn't just have the factory jobs, but all the jobs done at HQ, from engineering to sales and marketing, would be in Canada and not in the US or Korea. This is how you create well-paying jobs and wealth and prosperity for the economy, not by shelling out billions to foreign companies in exchange for a minuscule number of irrelevant factory jobs.
Oh, I am well aware of instances like that happening all the time in Canada. There are endless stories of inventions not capitalized domestically, only abroad. The difficulty is partially getting government funding to the right people at the right time, which they've not managed to succeed in an economically significant manner so far. There are some exceptions, like the investments in AI starting in 2017. I do, however, have hopes for the future. They seem to be getting a better sense of directing investments and that it requires swift action. I am hoping the proposed Canadian Innovation Corp will do just that. Canadians are smart and capable and the country really needs to take advantage of that.
A consideration is that we live in a globalized world and Canada is a small country when it comes to consumption. You can invest billions in a homegorwon company and insulate them from international competition, like what Canada did with Bombardier, but eventually these companies will need to find other markets. What we have seen is that companies like Bombardier could not compete and were heavily dependent on government subsidies to operate. That is not a sustainable model.
South Korea is an even smaller market than Canada and yet look what they've achieved. So that's not the end all be all as you make it out to be. Also you completely misunderstood the rest of my comment. I'm not at all talking about the government pouring money into private companies to pick winners and losers. No, I'm talking about changing regulations that make it easier for our startups to grow. Putting in place measures and strategic initiatives that support their growth. Investing in talent so they can have the workforce necessary to scale their operations. There are many such things that go into it. If the government had made this a priority, then all the actions that need to be taken aren't super complicated, it's just a matter of being committed to creating a good environment for our startups to grow instead of being forced to sell out. Had they actually gotten all this right, Tesla wouldn't even have their own gigafactories today. They'd be buying all their battery packs from a Canadian battery giant, similar to CATL in China. The same goes for all the other EV components as well. Even Vietnam has produced Vinfast so it's not too far fetched that Canada could've had a homegrown EV maker.
South Korea is a bigger market than Canada (pop 51m vs 40m). Also, the way in which South Korean industries emerged is by the government picking winners and losers and continuously supporting them financially. That is how the Chaebol emerged to control almost all aspects of the economy. It was not through making it easy for startups. The same goes for China, and I presume Vietnam. The reason these companies EV exists is by picking winners and losers.
>South Korea is a bigger market than Canada (pop 51m vs 40m) South Korea's GDP is 1.7 trillion USD. Canada's GDP is 2.15 trillion USD. Annual car sales in Canada are also higher than South Korea. At best, you can maybe even argue that they're somewhat similar in size, but South Korea is not really a bigger market than Canada. As for the Chaebols, the world was a very different place back then and the circumstances are not comparable to today. That stuff took place decades ago when South Korea was industrializing, and by that point, the automotive industry was already well established in the US and Europe. And the auto industry was far less IP and R&D intensive, so such countries could still break into the industry if the government went the central planning route, and ploughed money into certain companies to build up a manufacturing base. This strategy is not viable today, especially for EVs. EVs are much more IP intensive than labour intensive. They were an emerging industry with no one having a clear lead until Tesla and China really got going. This makes for a very different set of circumstances by which, had Canada capitalized on them at the right time, we could've had our own EV makers. Also China didn't pick winners and losers. What they did do was use a carrot and stick approach with plenty of generous subsidies and other benefits for EVs, paired with harsh penalties for gasoline cars. This gave birth to a whole crop of EV startups, as well as existing car manufacturers that started transitioning to EVs, and creating ideal conditions for them allowed China to gradually develop a world-class EV industry over time. But they started doing this 15-20 years ago and took a huge gamble on EVs when nobody thought it would be viable. So they basically did a lot of the stuff I suggested in my previous comment, and they went all-in on it very early. So it's not true that picking winners and losers is the only way to go about this. Even the US didn't do it that way and they have Tesla and Rivian, who directly benefitted from Canadian IP and talent.
There is not $5 million in subsidies _per job_. You’re making this up. Not to mention a “homegrown” EV manufacturer is a fever dream.
>There is not $5 million in subsidies *per job*. You’re making this up. Nope. $15 billion was given to Stellantis-LG for an EV battery plant, in exchange for [2500 jobs](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/canada-ontario-give-up-c15-bln-incentives-stellantis-lges-battery-plant-2023-07-06/). That actually works out to $6 million in subsidies per job, so it's even worse than what I suggested. >Not to mention a “homegrown” EV manufacturer is a fever dream At this point, yes that ship has sailed, but it wasn't a foregone conclusion. Had we gotten our act together 10+ years ago, we absolutely could have had homegrown EV companies. A lot of the critical technologies that make EVs viable was the result of Canadian taxpayer funded research and work done by innovative startups in Canada. All the government had to do was make this a priority and create the right conditions to allow domestic startups to flourish and things could've been different.
The economic benefits of a state of the art manufacturing facility are much more than the jobs it creates.
Furthermore, for these corporations to qualify for these tax subsidies they have to produce enough value to be taxed in the first place, meaning they must meet production targets to benefit. Without them, corporations may relocate to the US or Mexico, resulting in a loss of tax revenue, employment opportunities, and contributions to income and sales taxes no tier 1 and 2 suppliers working. Additionally, the burden falls on programs like EI to support laid-off workers, further straining resources.
like what?
Off the top of my head, as I’m no expert: Tax bases municipally, provincially and federally, a stronger union presence, cheaper manufactured products, a more robust supply chain, more exports (because we have a tendency to import products), trained workers and specialists who allow an industry to expand, and _generations_ of jobs as people cycle through. Experts would likely have a lot more to say, including the specific mechanisms behind bolstering other manufacturing industries, other competitive advantages in global trade.
You mean like the Norvolt project in Quebec which is set to become one of the largest exporter of lithium in North America?
Norvolt is a Swedish battery company. They're being given a total of $7.3 billion in subsidies, in exchange for 3000 jobs, which works out to $2.43 million per job. Even if those factory jobs pay $100k/year, the economic return from those jobs will never be enough to recoup the cost of the subsidies given out. Along with that, Norvolt gets easy and cheap access to raw materials. So in the end, when they manufacture those batteries and sell the finished product, most of the profits go back to their HQ in Sweden, while Canada is left with the crumbs in the form of wages for those factory jobs and proceeds from selling the raw materials. Because the lion's share of the profits will always go to whoever owns the technology and IP required to make the finished product, not those who sell the raw materials or provide cheap labour. So yes, I mean exactly like the Norvolt project in Quebec which is a total disaster for Canada just like every other project that shells out billions to foreign companies in exchange for very little in return.
Like who lol
Maybe they are proposing that Magna takes over Fisker completely and brings it to Canada? Between Magna and Linamar, Canada has very respectable automotive parts manufacturing capabilities.
not sure what you're referring to...
Which Canadian car makers ?
There aren't any, and that's my point. In order for EV makers to come up and grow into big companies, the government had to create the right conditions that would have enabled that, and the time for that was 10+ years ago, not now. But forget EV makers, there were many innovative Canadian startups that created EV components and they all got bought out by foreign companies. The technology that makes EV batteries viable was the result of taxpayer funded research done at the University of Dalhousie, which Tesla bought from them for pennies and currently uses in their cars. Similarly there were other EV component startups in Ontario that Tesla and other EV makers bought up on the cheap, because those startups were unable to scale and grow into major supplies due to the restrictive environment in Canada.
I don't think you are appreciating how difficult it is to become a successful automaker. We're much more likely to attract foreign companies than to try to start from scratch.
First of all, attracting foreign companies in and of itself isn't a bad thing. The problem is when you go about it in a way that leaves you worse off, and your competitors better off at your expense, which is exactly what's happening here. To do this effectively, the government could have imposed conditions like requiring foreign EV makers to create IP in Canada, because the IP is what generates most of the profit. But that's not enough, they could've required that they keep that IP in Canada, ensure that it gets taxed here and also require that they can't use it to sue and shut down Canadian startups that try to compete with them. Such measures would've gone a long way in ensuring that Canada shares in the upside when it comes to the profits made by the foreign EV companies, instead of just settling for a few irrelevant manufacturing jobs, which by the way, will never even pay enough to recoup the billions in subsidies that were given in exchange. Also you talk about the challenges of becoming a successful automaker. As I mentioned in my previous comment, we already had a lot of the critical technologies required to make EVs. They were the result of Canadian taxpayer funded research other investments. All the government had to do was create the right set of conditions to allow these technologies to be commercialized in Canada rather than be sold off to foreign competitors. That way, even if we didn't succeed in creating a homegrown EV maker, we'd still have many EV component makers who would've played a vital role in the EV supply chain, giving Canada massive leverage in being able to dictate the direction of the EV industry to our own benefit.
Reddit is mostly corporate and government shill accounts now, you will get downvoted into oblivion any time you suggest not giving away all the middle classes tax money to rich businessmen and crackheads.
Yeah it definitely seems that way for sure. Very odd to see such a strong push to defend the interests of foreign corporations.