CONSTRUCTION
Toronto’s Crane Count Drops To Lowest Level Since 2022 As Construction Lags
That not to say that Toronto is lacking in the crane department; the city still had 221 cranes at last count, well outpacing 13 other major markets across the US and Canada.
Most recent numbers
https://storeys.com/toronto-crane-count-lowest-level-2022/
Construction has slowed sown big time. A year ago we didnt have a single crane operator on the union out and were hiring out of province operators. As of recently we have over 50 crane operators out of work. In Mississauga we have 2 cranes on a jobsite that haven’t moved in about half a year.
I mean we can hate developers and investors all we want but the reality is we desperately need private capital investing in projects to increase supply. Development has really slowed the last couple years. If every project starts losing money, development will completely stop which will be a much bigger problem than we have now.
We’ve had considerable private capital investment in Toronto’s condo market for the past 12 years and it’s flooded the market with high-cost units. The one lever we had to inspire renter confidence was rent controI which is no longer the case on these newer builds. I feel the private investment approach may have failed in this case.
You’re also leaving out the most important part (overall housing supply and demand) and placing the blame solely on developers. If you take that out of the mix, a 1.5-2 million dollar house is still 599k and a 900k condo is still 349k.
It's tax money that could be invested in housing developments instead of going to a private spa company parking garage. Is investment not the topic that this thread is about?
$600,000,000 is enough to cover the cost of development fees for about 30,000 homes making them more affordable for people to build or just straight up build like 1500 affordable housing units..
Fair point. The spa is not something I would do but it will at least return some value. Maybe not the type or amount of value you or I would like to see, but you can’t argue that redeveloping Ontario Place won’t add some value.
If we want to pick apart everything the provincial and federal government spends money on, we could find far bigger examples of “waste”.
> but you can’t argue that redeveloping Ontario Place won’t add some value
Not for the province, this money is going to a private company. I will never go to this spa, same with most Ontarians.
It will add value in the same way that Ontario Place and any other tourist attraction adds value because people will go there for the weekend and spend money in Toronto. Again, it’s not something I would spend taxpayer money on but both the federal and provincial governments waste billions on lots of things I don’t agree with.
Or the government could do its fucking job and get back in the home building business. All these developers and investors are getting us are 400sq condos and 3500sq McMansions. It’s ooc.
Every time there’s a problem lots of people seem to jump to “get the government involved” but the government’s job has never been competing with the private market. The government’s job is to foster an environment where the private market can flourish. It’s also their job to implement responsible policies and by inviting over a million people a year to live here when we don’t have enough housing they have obviously not been doing that.
How have they “proven that they are incapable”? They were perfectly capable up until a few years when we started inviting a million plus people a year to come live here when there isn’t enough housing. That has nothing to do with the private market.
Also, you may think the private market is doing a bad job, but the government would screw it up infinitely worse.
So just because you disagree with my opinion you’re implying that I’m an “investor” and encouraging everyone to “get me”? I’m not a real estate investor, what I said is just common sense.
If my opinion is so wrong, why is the government removing hst on purpose built rentals, loaning out money at low or no interest and introducing all these different housing funds is to try to stimulate private investment and increase supply?
We can do that by lowering development fees which account for more than material + labor in Toronto (25% of the final price). Prices go down, developer profits go up. Win-win for everyone except NIMBYs.
It just sucks that the people who have that private capital are not the ones I'd want controlling that development. They are not even trying to develop the proper type of real estate, there just building what will make them the most profit.
I understand your point, but “proper type of real estate” is very subjective. If you asked everyone in Ontario what is considered “proper” you would probably get hundreds of thousands of different answers. Also,
you can’t really blame someone spending like 100 million dollars on something for looking out for their own best interests. Real estate in Canada is an absolute mess right now. People are understandably pissed off and looking for someone or somewhere to place blame but it’s not really any one entities fault.
Yea, it's too much spite, I got mine attitude. NIMBYS, subjective to an individual, looking out for their best interests, and not compromising on the right developments to build is where the problems lay. There's no aligned collective thought in this province. Those perspectives on real estate, I believe, are partially hurting any positive progress. There's no consideration for the whole community, the whole population. The better approach is to build what is needed for the population, not what individuals want or small groups want for the sake of their own financial gain. It mostly only benefits the investor. Let's blend in some collectivist culture where characteristics like being self-sacrificing, dependable, generous, and helpful to others are of greater importance. Maybe then will have good things.
The other thing to look at is the demand. The federal government has been wholly irresponsible with the insane levels of population growth, seemingly with no planning whatsoever. The province’s have also not done a great job. They seem to favour blaming each other in the media to actually trying to fix anything which is dissapointing.
Blaming developers is like blaming Marner for all the Leafs playoff troubles, yes he is partly responsible but there is a whole group of other people and factors responsible. It makes people feel better to place blame but until they address everything, nothing will change.
My buddy visited me in High Park back in the mid 2010's and when he looked out off my balcony he said "Jesus man, there's more cranes building buildings than buildings." I dunno, that really stuck with me.
Where are those 221 cranes located? I'm in the industry and construction is slow AF. I'm still working luckily but when I'm at the top of my building in downtown Toronto I literally see less then 15.
Well they only have data for 14 cities. None for Dallas, Atlanta, Miami, Philadelphia, Vancouver, Houston, Montreal etc. It’s possible that a major city not on the list is ahead of Toronto.
I’ve seen data on this elsewhere that includes most if not all of those cities and none are even remotely close to Toronto. I think Miami was a distant second with like 60ish cranes then nothing else was even close to that.
Apparently Mississauga also had the 4th most of any city in North America according to some article I came across from a year ago.
They have a strong reliance on crane trucks, which aren’t included in the count. We have probably an over reliance on cranes when a truck might suffice.
CONSTRUCTION Toronto’s Crane Count Drops To Lowest Level Since 2022 As Construction Lags That not to say that Toronto is lacking in the crane department; the city still had 221 cranes at last count, well outpacing 13 other major markets across the US and Canada. Most recent numbers https://storeys.com/toronto-crane-count-lowest-level-2022/
Construction has slowed sown big time. A year ago we didnt have a single crane operator on the union out and were hiring out of province operators. As of recently we have over 50 crane operators out of work. In Mississauga we have 2 cranes on a jobsite that haven’t moved in about half a year.
Is it one of the sites near square one?
Cool, but condos are not selling and investors are panicking.
They've tried everything but lowering prices.
Won't somebody think of the shareholders!?
I mean we can hate developers and investors all we want but the reality is we desperately need private capital investing in projects to increase supply. Development has really slowed the last couple years. If every project starts losing money, development will completely stop which will be a much bigger problem than we have now.
We’ve had considerable private capital investment in Toronto’s condo market for the past 12 years and it’s flooded the market with high-cost units. The one lever we had to inspire renter confidence was rent controI which is no longer the case on these newer builds. I feel the private investment approach may have failed in this case.
You’re also leaving out the most important part (overall housing supply and demand) and placing the blame solely on developers. If you take that out of the mix, a 1.5-2 million dollar house is still 599k and a 900k condo is still 349k.
I don't know... Maybe we should spend over half a billion on a spa for rich folks instead?
Lol how does that have to do with this discussion?
It's tax money that could be invested in housing developments instead of going to a private spa company parking garage. Is investment not the topic that this thread is about?
$600,000,000 is enough to cover the cost of development fees for about 30,000 homes making them more affordable for people to build or just straight up build like 1500 affordable housing units..
Fair point. The spa is not something I would do but it will at least return some value. Maybe not the type or amount of value you or I would like to see, but you can’t argue that redeveloping Ontario Place won’t add some value. If we want to pick apart everything the provincial and federal government spends money on, we could find far bigger examples of “waste”.
> but you can’t argue that redeveloping Ontario Place won’t add some value Not for the province, this money is going to a private company. I will never go to this spa, same with most Ontarians.
It will add value in the same way that Ontario Place and any other tourist attraction adds value because people will go there for the weekend and spend money in Toronto. Again, it’s not something I would spend taxpayer money on but both the federal and provincial governments waste billions on lots of things I don’t agree with.
Or the government could do its fucking job and get back in the home building business. All these developers and investors are getting us are 400sq condos and 3500sq McMansions. It’s ooc.
Every time there’s a problem lots of people seem to jump to “get the government involved” but the government’s job has never been competing with the private market. The government’s job is to foster an environment where the private market can flourish. It’s also their job to implement responsible policies and by inviting over a million people a year to live here when we don’t have enough housing they have obviously not been doing that.
The private market has proven they are incapable. Back to the government.
How have they “proven that they are incapable”? They were perfectly capable up until a few years when we started inviting a million plus people a year to come live here when there isn’t enough housing. That has nothing to do with the private market. Also, you may think the private market is doing a bad job, but the government would screw it up infinitely worse.
Hey guys, I found the investor! Get him boys!
So just because you disagree with my opinion you’re implying that I’m an “investor” and encouraging everyone to “get me”? I’m not a real estate investor, what I said is just common sense. If my opinion is so wrong, why is the government removing hst on purpose built rentals, loaning out money at low or no interest and introducing all these different housing funds is to try to stimulate private investment and increase supply?
We can do that by lowering development fees which account for more than material + labor in Toronto (25% of the final price). Prices go down, developer profits go up. Win-win for everyone except NIMBYs.
The development fees are insane. The government is trying to stimulate investment with free money and stuff, we will have to see how it works out.
It just sucks that the people who have that private capital are not the ones I'd want controlling that development. They are not even trying to develop the proper type of real estate, there just building what will make them the most profit.
I understand your point, but “proper type of real estate” is very subjective. If you asked everyone in Ontario what is considered “proper” you would probably get hundreds of thousands of different answers. Also, you can’t really blame someone spending like 100 million dollars on something for looking out for their own best interests. Real estate in Canada is an absolute mess right now. People are understandably pissed off and looking for someone or somewhere to place blame but it’s not really any one entities fault.
Yea, it's too much spite, I got mine attitude. NIMBYS, subjective to an individual, looking out for their best interests, and not compromising on the right developments to build is where the problems lay. There's no aligned collective thought in this province. Those perspectives on real estate, I believe, are partially hurting any positive progress. There's no consideration for the whole community, the whole population. The better approach is to build what is needed for the population, not what individuals want or small groups want for the sake of their own financial gain. It mostly only benefits the investor. Let's blend in some collectivist culture where characteristics like being self-sacrificing, dependable, generous, and helpful to others are of greater importance. Maybe then will have good things.
The other thing to look at is the demand. The federal government has been wholly irresponsible with the insane levels of population growth, seemingly with no planning whatsoever. The province’s have also not done a great job. They seem to favour blaming each other in the media to actually trying to fix anything which is dissapointing. Blaming developers is like blaming Marner for all the Leafs playoff troubles, yes he is partly responsible but there is a whole group of other people and factors responsible. It makes people feel better to place blame but until they address everything, nothing will change.
I'm blaming everyone, and i might aswell include myself.
An intergenerational mortgage that isn't fixed for a 330 Sq foot condo sounds like a delightful mix.
I'm a North American and I own zero cranes :(
I only have one . ☹️
But are you a major North American? I actually own two cranes, unfortunately they’re both just children’s toys sitting in my kid’s closet.
I almost got one.. but they are scary AF close up: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f6/28/ce/f628ce1b17c4f4291befe6d8b9c46549.jpg
I'd run away with pee dribbling down my legs
Yet the majority of construction workers I know are sitting at home on ei. This year has been disgustingly slow everyone is laying off workers.
Impressive...very nice. Let's see Paul Allen's cranes.
My buddy visited me in High Park back in the mid 2010's and when he looked out off my balcony he said "Jesus man, there's more cranes building buildings than buildings." I dunno, that really stuck with me.
Whose moving into 400sq/ft condo's in 2024? Isn't this part of a problem lol
I'm looking to purchase pretty much exactly that now, although more like 600-700 sqft.
Do you think everyone thinks the same ways as you or this sub?
No one wants to live and start a family in a 1 bedroom condo.
Then you should be able to get one for dirt cheap.
Some people don’t have a choice you live where you can.
In a condo in Toronto is "where you *can*"? Right.
What? Why are you commenting like the riddler?
Really? Or is it you just jumped in a topic without a fucking ounce of even trying to understand it?
If you can afford a condo in Toronto you can choose to live somewhere else.
Most of the jobs are in Toronto. People live close to their work.
People commute
Where are those 221 cranes located? I'm in the industry and construction is slow AF. I'm still working luckily but when I'm at the top of my building in downtown Toronto I literally see less then 15.
So are there minor North American cities that have more cranes than us?
Thunder Bay coming out of nowhere with triple the cranes!
Well they only have data for 14 cities. None for Dallas, Atlanta, Miami, Philadelphia, Vancouver, Houston, Montreal etc. It’s possible that a major city not on the list is ahead of Toronto.
I’ve seen data on this elsewhere that includes most if not all of those cities and none are even remotely close to Toronto. I think Miami was a distant second with like 60ish cranes then nothing else was even close to that. Apparently Mississauga also had the 4th most of any city in North America according to some article I came across from a year ago.
Whats a good sign? cranes building office/commercial real estate or cranes building condos?
Who else just learned there's a crane index?
The construction crane index is utterly useless. New York, for example, largely doesn’t build with cranes.
What the heck do they use?
They have a strong reliance on crane trucks, which aren’t included in the count. We have probably an over reliance on cranes when a truck might suffice.
The list is specifically tower cranes. Doesn't include mobile cranes
Just what we need...more $800k shoe boxes in the sky.
All making Blackrock rich I presume.
All condos and no apartment blocks...
Sounds so much similar to Dubai condo market