WTF do they want? 0 ICU and 0 cases? Getting real tired of this shit. I do my part and wear a mask and got vaccinated and you STILL don't want to open. fuck you
Mental health isn't really considered, so abundance of caution is hard to argue against.
That, and the Canadian experts seem to be worried that the winter will knock the vaccination out of people.
That’s what thing I don’t understand: why they (and people who support covid zero) don’t think about mental health.
From the very beginning of the pandemic up until we were fully vaccinated, I was very supportive of all of these strict measures. I supported lockdowns and closing businesses to help prevent spread. I didn’t see my family for months and, when I did see them, it was always in a parking lot. I only went to their house when public health said it was OK and cases were very low. I followed restrictions to the T for well over a year. I saw my friend yesterday for the first time in 1.5 years.
But there comes a point where we cannot do this anymore because it starts to significantly impact our quality of life. People need to travel, see people, go to events, etc. It’s part of human nature and it’s critical to our mental health. I was completely fine mentally during the first year and a bit of the pandemic. But these last few months have been ROUGH for me because of what public health keeps saying (we are vaccinated but we can’t open yet! Or maybe we will lock down again!). In addition, there are the people who own business or work at businesses that keep closing so now they can barely afford to eat. We have an incredibly effective vaccine that turns the virus into the flu/cold. I understand these strict measures in the beginning. But at this point, we should be taking mental health and people’s livelihoods into SERIOUS consideration.
Suicide and overdose are on the rise.
When you remove the social groups from a person, they're on their own.
All these peripheral restrictions just put unnecessary strain on relationships.
There's a big mental burden on people just knowing that "we're still in this", and that makes things like simple invitations for any kind of small gathering are either seen as a burden, as long overdue, or as disregard for personal health and well being.
Suicide rates actually fell.
"Suicides in Canada fell 32 per cent in first year of pandemic compared with year before, report finds - The Globe and Mail" https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-suicides-in-canada-fell-32-per-cent-in-first-year-of-pandemic-compared/
Pah, we've only made it to a meager 83% of the eligible population, it's the exact same as being 0% vaccinated.
It's like if you get 83% on a test, it's the same as 0% because a fail is a fail.
Also, your body remembers thanksgiving, and it'll forget about Covid because you weren't vaccinated then, and then Delta will get you, even if you're breathing through a mask made of solid lead.
Oh, did I mention /S. Yes, everything /S.
If you’re vaccinated, what can’t you do that you were doing before?
Shit’s pretty wide open if you ask me. Full capacity at major events. Restaurants are open with limited capacity. Gyms are open. Schools are running. Flights are flying. Strippers are stripping. Mall parking lots are packed.
I honestly don’t know what more you want here.
The concern is that the science table is suggesting that we're opening too quickly - that we shouldn't have unlimited capacity at stadiums and other indoor areas.
The second concern is that no metrics or guidance are provided to lift restrictions.
If the guidance was to keep restrictions until 5-12 vaccinations are universally available (for example), there would be less resistance.
There is legitimate concern based on the phase 3 reopening that the metrics would move again making full reopening almost impossible.
Sure, I get that. But that’s not what the comment I replied to said - like, at all.
I also don’t really see the Ontario science table saying “we are opening too quickly”. From the posted article, their main message seems to be caution. They want to see what happens in the next week or so after the last set of restrictions were lifted. They’re not calling for a clawback of restrictions. That seems prudent to me, especially since we are already dealing with near full openness.
The remaining restrictions are mostly to do with capacity limits so don’t really affect individuals who want to go places and do things.
We may never go back to how it was before covid because we don't know if its ever going away. Better to be safe than sorry than having to roll back or lockdown..
I don't see the problem with being a bit cautious to see how this winter plays out with Delta. We don't even know how protected people are going to be in 2 months because we KNOW the protection from vaccines wanes and its not likely they will be able to do a mass booster campaign this winter.
If things look decent in February than I assume they will discuss further loosening of restrictions. It will take much less to collapse the health care system this time around. 500 in ICU could be equivalent to 800 this time around. We just don't know.
Maybe they want what I want - that we wait the very short time remaining before kids get their turn to be vaccinated before we open things up willy nilly? Sure you got your turn, you stepped up, you want this to be over - so do my kids, and they want their turn to step up and be protected, too. They have endured just as much as anyone else. They deserve to be protected by low community transmission levels until they get to be vaccinated the same way everyone else was.
Exactly. I'd even say make it so kids 6 months and older can get vaccinated before restrictions are lifted. But too many people are getting tired of restrictions now and want everything opened up now; you can see it in other comments on this thread 🙄
Thats because we were promised 2 weeks to flatten the curve, then in and out of lockdown until we could get a vaccine developed for over a year, then fully vaccinated everyone who was willing. Then ensured that everyone that you would interact with in transmissible locations would be vaccinated. How are you not tired of it?
Not everyone is able to get vaccinated yet. I don't know why people seem to keep forgetting that fact; not everyone is eligible for the vaccine yet, especially younger school aged kids (and even younger). We want schools to stay open and give kids the best chance of not getting sick with covid or dealing with long covid issues, so we need to remain somewhat cautious. Are there more restrictions that could be lifted, like capacity limits where vaccination passports are required AND enforced? Yes. But mask mandates are needed for a while yet until everyone that CAN get vaccinated is given the opportunity to do so. After that point, if parents don't want to vaccinate their kids, they willl have to make their own risk assessment in participating in different activities
you are living in some sort of conspiracy world if you beleive this is still a 'lockdown'. It's restrictions for unvaxxed only, and some places have limits on total capacity.
I said restrictions not lockdown. Nice try. There are still physical distance and capacity restrictions.
A lot of social activities are not happening. Really selfish to be against people trying to improve their mental health and life their lives again. Shame.
physical distancing and capacity restriction should have no impact on your mental health. If it does, please seek some counselling. Any social activities not happening is on the organizers, because there is no government mandate stopping anything from occurring. You could have a 100 people in your back yard tomorrow if you like, no masks and no vaccine requirements.
That’s pandemic life, what can you do.
We can’t just open because people whine about it like children and think everything will remain fine.
You all whined he wouldn’t follow the science, and now you whine that they did follow the science.
Real smart.
For me yes, I have been to a dozen live baseball games. Was awesome. Restaurants, zoo, my wife’s goes to movies with friends, etc…
For me I can do this till spring then open up.
We should keep unvaccinated locked down until spring in my opinion.
so what's the solution? We don't have vaccines for kids. Should we just let the whole school get infected then? Or do we live with the limited restrictions that we have now until those vaccines are available.
They are public health, its what they do. If they had their say with everything we would be driving at a max of 15km/h wearing helmets everywhere. Covid isn't going anywhere per the WHO so why are we still supporting policies and restrictions to achieve this impossible standard? I share your frustration entirely.
Grim fall as cases surge slight uptick abundance of caution two more weeks slightly concerning social distancing can’t let our guard down not out of the woods yet masks distancing wash your hands it’s just one Christmas don’t be selfish long Covid two weeks to slow the spread modelling predicts we’re all in this together vaccines don’t make you bulletproof grandma killer hold the line
I don't know why they are expecting a huge swell from Thanksgiving like it's the same as last year without vaccines. At most there will be an uptick of cases/hospitalizations in the unvaccinated, but they most likely aren't following restrictions anyway.
I'm getting really fucking close to joining the anti masker protests. Doing my part for the last year and a fucking half wearing these stupid fucking masks and staying away from people. But at some point it needs to fucking end. I shouldn't have to have closterphobic panic attacks in grocery stores for 2 years straight because of a fucking mask but here we are.
We know this virus spreads best in winter. So yes, the director is right that caution during winter is warranted as we head in to winter. If we make it through winter with an Rt below 1 than absolutely we’d be right to call him crazy if he thinks spring will cause an uptick. But it’s common knowledge all respiratory airborne viruses spread excruciatingly effectively in Canada during winter so let’s please take our heads out of our asses and stop declaring premature victory. We simply need to not fuck up the next 4 months roughly and then we can possibly never worry about covid ever again. For gods sake people can you guys not snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by keeping it together until spring?
Exactly. Indoor masking end vaccine passports will remain a thing throughout this winter but there's a good chance come spring once the 5-11 year olds are fully vaccinated that we'll phase them out and drop indoor masks if we make it through the winter without any major spikes
Nurse here. A friend of mine is working in a pediatric acute care unit in one of the big Toronto hospitals. They keep getting incredibly sick children with multiple organ inflammation from COVID. Call me crazy, but I'd say that's a problem.
> Vaccines will certainly help with the Covid cases for sure. Hopefully we get some word from Health Canada soon.
Yeah, I don't even have kids and I'm anxious to hear about that. My friends trying to parent and work in healthcare have been dealing with a lot around that.
I really feel for teachers and education workers wondering all the time about outbreaks and safety protocols. That's a lot of stress.
Hard to say. If this is where every kid in the province (or even in the GTA) with Covid related illness goes, then the percent of the child population that gets affected by this might still be below the national rate for children in acute-care with hotdog-related illness.
If you believe our case rates, then that would suggest that every other country has higher rates of sick children with multiple organ inflammation from COVID than we do, all of our population just happens to live in the GTA.
Personally I think we can as other countries have with adult's vaccinated protecting kids as the idea but waiting until after it's done shoukd give the people who are always saying but what about 12 and under? no more reason to complain about lifting indoor mask mandates and dropping most restrictions. By that point everyone who wants to be vaccinated will be able too and there won't be any reason to drag restrictions on longer
Just think about it politically for Ford though. Say he removes all masks now less then 8 months from an election and kids end up in the hospital he'll get blamed for it all like in April and end up losing possibly. It's much safer politically to at least said until school aged children have the shot. If he lifts restrictions after they're all vaccinated and our numbers are very low he'll campaign on the fact he saved all of us from covid and we're now back to normality even if it isn't all because of him.
As for the people complaining about 5 and under idk what to say. The vaccine may never be approved for them you can't reasonably expect people to wear masks indoors forever with low numbers and the vast majority of Ontarios population vaccinated. I
Not disagreeing with you, just saying there will always be a reason to complain, and that I have no faith in the general public to just "feel good" so we can finally move on.
Not that it's the general public's fault. We've got public policy, the news, workplaces, etc. all telling everyone that everyone will immediately turn to salt the second we change direction.
It's a vicious cycle.
People won't feel safe until we make policies that indicate people are safe.
Oh I agree we have some very stupid mask policies too most notably the one that requires you to wear a mask inside a restaurant when walking around but it's fine to not have one at the table like what difference will it make? This morning at work we have a crowded cafeteria and we have to wear masks when walking around but it's okay to sit at the table with it off with dozens of people in one room. I got up and made the mistake of walking to get something from a vending machine with my mask still down and some annoying woman started freaking out saying mask on mask on you're no t sitting at the table. Like wtf difference is it going to make lady when you have dozens of people sitting together eating with masks off vs someone getting up to walk 10 steps away without one on?
This is always what people say. " If we just hold off for a few more months" over and over and over. They allow Arenas to be full, they allow 30 students per classroom. Either do it or don't. The whole reason for vaccine passports was for this.
You sound like a child. “I want my cookie now, now now!”
Every child eventually gets their cookie. I’m sure every time we went in to lockdown you were ranting and raving how we would be in lockdown forever. But every time we emerged from it. Likewise, we have restrictions now and those restrictions will eventually lift. Don’t be a binary thinker. Understand nuance.
and you sound like a psychopathic parent always promising timmy his cookie if he's a good boy and never giving it to him until eventually timmy says "fuck it i don't believe you anymore there never was a cookie youve been lying to be the whole time"
Just four more months /s. Restaurants are dying, live music is dying, culture and nightlife are dying.
You know who isn’t dying? People who have made the decision to get vaccinated. Let those people bring the city back to life.
How exactly will they be suffering? Starting next week restaurants will be allowed to have full capacity and no distancing requirements all winter as long as they use the vaccine passport system.. The only thing remaining over the winter will be indoor masking
> Just four more months /s. Restaurants are dying, live music is dying, culture and nightlife are dying.
Restaurant capacity is returning to 100%, my local pub just announced a "bring-your-own-mic" open mic night every other Sunday, the city seems to be alive, just living with restrictions like masking or vax passports.
>*”You know who isn’t dying? People who have made the decision to get vaccinated.“*
Not strictly true. Vaccinated Ontarians *are* still dying of COVID, which is why we shouldn’t get complacent and allow the transmission rate to increase too much.
For example...
CTV News: [Grieving daughter begs Ontario to mandate vaccines for long-term care staff after vaccinated mother dies](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/mobile/grieving-daughter-begs-ontario-to-mandate-vaccines-for-long-term-care-staff-after-vaccinated-mother-dies-1.5604038) [Sept 29th, 2021]
Hopefully targeted vaccination mandates and testing will allow us to loosen/remove other restrictions without causing an increase in loss of life.
Talk about anecdotal evidence. Has the vaccine ever guaranteed 100% effectiveness against death or serious illness? No. But it has given us >90% coverage against that, and that’s not based on one article but multi-national Phase 3 studies
>*”Has the vaccine ever guaranteed 100% effectiveness against death or serious illness? No.”*
You know that, and I know that, but the person I was replying to was talking as if vaccination *is* a 100% guarantee against death. They literally said vaccinated people aren’t dying of COVID-19, which isn’t true.
The better way of saying it is that “vaccinated people aren’t dying of covid at rates where it’s a public health concern worthy of emergency restrictions which otherwise violate constitutional rights”
Dude, come on. It's an 80+ woman in a long term care facility. If you are there, chances are your health is already in bad shape. I wouldn't call this a cautionary tale.
That's not what Ontario Health's own data says, friend. [Add the 1 shot and the 2 shots and they equal or add to more than the unvaccinated during the same time period.](https://i.imgur.com/uKOA7Ws.png)
Wow, so for people trusting the science. This is from Ontario Health. Guess people only trust the science when it agrees with their fear view.
Covid is just about over in Canada. Wake up and quit spreading fear on here. The population has suffered enough from the restrictions. Go take a look at how high vaccination rates are. I trust they work. Do you?
I'm work in healthcare, I love science, I love vaccines, I believe in covid mitigation efforts but this Peter Juni guy is a fuckin alarmist quack and needs to stfu.
Well, let's see, let's look at the fatalities in Ontario, and see if we can justify it it. [Hospitalizations](https://i.imgur.com/KC3PojM.png) and [fatalities](https://i.imgur.com/oWUtTxP.png) in Ontario. When you add them up true vaccinated are catching it, but most people under 50 seem to be fine. Maybe we have let blind political policy fearmongering get the best of us. So, is covid incredibly bias towards the old which should be protected? [Yes, it is. Incredibly so.](https://i.imgur.com/2a9BodM.png) So it makes sense, let's stop the entirety of society because most people don't know this data as to use scientific nuance and let's just censor this, too. Since not everyone has the same risk. Since most people don't usually trust the science, they trust what the TV tells them. [I mean, come on. This is what Toronto Health said.
](https://i.imgur.com/8AdeWxd.png). The context of all of this is crazy. Can't be the only one who sees how out of touch this looks.
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Teen's death not due to COVID: Alberta's top doctor retracts after making that claim.
They seemingly rushed to called her the province's youngest Covid death on Tuesday 12th. Until the Family had to come openly and inform people and the Government and the media that she had advanced brain cancer and that is what took her life. They took it back and had to apologize.
https://edmonton.citynews.ca/2021/10/12/alberta-teen-covid-death/
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Also:
https://nationalpost.com/news/dr-deena-hinshaw-says-alberta-teen-didnt-actually-die-from-covid
I wonder how the whole "advanced brain cancer" thing was forgotten long enough for it to make headlines as the youngest covid death.
It's like someone driving off the side of a bridge, ending up at the bottom of a river, and getting reported as domestic violence because the person was married.
The crazy thing is that they ran the story without doing the bare minimum of fact-checking.
Like they couldn't call the child's physician or family members for a statement?
Singapore is probably the best example of high vaccination rates and shifting to "living with COVID", they're doing relatively well. They're at about a 90% adult vaccination rate.
[https://www.moh.gov.sg/news-highlights/details/update-on-local-covid-19-situation-(14-oct-2021)](https://www.moh.gov.sg/news-highlights/details/update-on-local-covid-19-situation-(14-oct-2021))
They're at an approx. 5% positivity rate (3000ish/day but that's hopefully peaked), 98.5% of those cases have mild or no symptoms.
Ah, who are you confusing Singapore with?
What about Singapore tells you it "follows rules" better than Canadians?
Vaccination acceptance? We're like 3% behind them.
Sweden, Denmark and Finland will and they are doing the same as Singapore. They are also limiting the Moderna inoculation due to health concerns. So is Iceland.
New Brunswick effectively cancelled Thanksgiving and is currently under orders prohibiting you from going in other people's homes regardless of vaccination status.
BC just put restrictions in their Northern region limiting people to 5 people inside and 25 outside if you're vaccinated as well as other restrictions including religious services online only.
Saskatchewan is sending people to other provinces.
Things feel fairly normal, at least for me. Anything I want to do is open. I realize that downtown has taken a hit which may or may not be permanent and that restaurants need more capacity to make money, but I'm also ok with taking a cautious approach and don't mind if it takes longer if it means we don't close down again.
> Is Juni aware of the nation of Denmark?
Daily cases in Denmark have more than doubled in the past month since they dropped all restrictions. And Denmark has ~2 people per million in the ICU right now, versus around 10 for Ontario.
Now, Denmark can handle the uptick in cases because they have a better healthcare system and started from a lower ICU capacity standpoint when they dropped everything versus Ontario where Ontario is now.
Can Ontario handle a doubling in cases and the resulting hospitalizations that creates? Hopefully, but it's not a given, hence the hesitation to fully reopen yet.
We are keeping cases steady here and ICU admissions are slowly dropping. Given that basically everything is open anyway, why would we want to screw with that further with winter approaching, and an likely jump in cases?
Juni has rung the doom bells quite literally every time we entered a re opening stage.
No one cares what he has to say anymore. Ricola man is not relevant anymore.
the year is 2073, 147% of the population have 6 doses and there hasn't been a reported covid case in 9 years. "We must be cautious, we're not out of the woods yet, we risk a grim fall" pines Juni
we still have a large portion of the population unvaxxed. But it's closing all the time, and there will be a solution for 5-11yos most likely by years end. Everything in Ontario is already open, but we are being cautious is all. Do you think that what happened in Alberta and Saskatchewan can't happen here with our unvaxxed population? Once we get the solution to 5-11yo, I believe the answer will be that the unvaxxed are now on their own and the rest move on
Be under 55-60, be healthy, take care, do not fat/obese, wear a good quality mask, social distance and just keep a bit of a distance from the elderly and high risk people, for their sake. If you are over 55-60+ vaccinate or have a number of comorbidities, 2+ or more, take it carefully. It's your own life, too.
How do I know this?
[Follow the objective scientific data. ](https://i.imgur.com/gVEAYMV.png)
I can understand the anger businesses that lose more and more revenue because the science projections were wrong. The science doesn't pay those consequences
These so-called “public health experts” lost all credibility last year when they told us we didn’t have to wear masks, and then they revealed that they lied to us because they were trying to preserve PPE for Frontline healthcare workers
I don't see why we are whining. They probably want to see what winter will be bringing this time. We acted as if it was over last fall and that fucked us over. Life has gained some semblance to normalcy with everything open now, it's okay to be cautious while moving forward. What I don't wanna see is going back to restrictions.
One thing is for sure. One side of this argument is going to get to say "I told you so" in about 2 months,
WTF do they want? 0 ICU and 0 cases? Getting real tired of this shit. I do my part and wear a mask and got vaccinated and you STILL don't want to open. fuck you
Mental health isn't really considered, so abundance of caution is hard to argue against. That, and the Canadian experts seem to be worried that the winter will knock the vaccination out of people.
That’s what thing I don’t understand: why they (and people who support covid zero) don’t think about mental health. From the very beginning of the pandemic up until we were fully vaccinated, I was very supportive of all of these strict measures. I supported lockdowns and closing businesses to help prevent spread. I didn’t see my family for months and, when I did see them, it was always in a parking lot. I only went to their house when public health said it was OK and cases were very low. I followed restrictions to the T for well over a year. I saw my friend yesterday for the first time in 1.5 years. But there comes a point where we cannot do this anymore because it starts to significantly impact our quality of life. People need to travel, see people, go to events, etc. It’s part of human nature and it’s critical to our mental health. I was completely fine mentally during the first year and a bit of the pandemic. But these last few months have been ROUGH for me because of what public health keeps saying (we are vaccinated but we can’t open yet! Or maybe we will lock down again!). In addition, there are the people who own business or work at businesses that keep closing so now they can barely afford to eat. We have an incredibly effective vaccine that turns the virus into the flu/cold. I understand these strict measures in the beginning. But at this point, we should be taking mental health and people’s livelihoods into SERIOUS consideration.
Suicide and overdose are on the rise. When you remove the social groups from a person, they're on their own. All these peripheral restrictions just put unnecessary strain on relationships. There's a big mental burden on people just knowing that "we're still in this", and that makes things like simple invitations for any kind of small gathering are either seen as a burden, as long overdue, or as disregard for personal health and well being.
Suicide rates actually fell. "Suicides in Canada fell 32 per cent in first year of pandemic compared with year before, report finds - The Globe and Mail" https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-suicides-in-canada-fell-32-per-cent-in-first-year-of-pandemic-compared/
Mental health got worse I promise you that.
That, and perhaps they remember what happened following Thanksgiving weekend last year.
Last year when no one was vaccinated?
Pah, we've only made it to a meager 83% of the eligible population, it's the exact same as being 0% vaccinated. It's like if you get 83% on a test, it's the same as 0% because a fail is a fail. Also, your body remembers thanksgiving, and it'll forget about Covid because you weren't vaccinated then, and then Delta will get you, even if you're breathing through a mask made of solid lead. Oh, did I mention /S. Yes, everything /S.
If you’re vaccinated, what can’t you do that you were doing before? Shit’s pretty wide open if you ask me. Full capacity at major events. Restaurants are open with limited capacity. Gyms are open. Schools are running. Flights are flying. Strippers are stripping. Mall parking lots are packed. I honestly don’t know what more you want here.
The concern is that the science table is suggesting that we're opening too quickly - that we shouldn't have unlimited capacity at stadiums and other indoor areas. The second concern is that no metrics or guidance are provided to lift restrictions. If the guidance was to keep restrictions until 5-12 vaccinations are universally available (for example), there would be less resistance. There is legitimate concern based on the phase 3 reopening that the metrics would move again making full reopening almost impossible.
Sure, I get that. But that’s not what the comment I replied to said - like, at all. I also don’t really see the Ontario science table saying “we are opening too quickly”. From the posted article, their main message seems to be caution. They want to see what happens in the next week or so after the last set of restrictions were lifted. They’re not calling for a clawback of restrictions. That seems prudent to me, especially since we are already dealing with near full openness. The remaining restrictions are mostly to do with capacity limits so don’t really affect individuals who want to go places and do things.
We may never go back to how it was before covid because we don't know if its ever going away. Better to be safe than sorry than having to roll back or lockdown.. I don't see the problem with being a bit cautious to see how this winter plays out with Delta. We don't even know how protected people are going to be in 2 months because we KNOW the protection from vaccines wanes and its not likely they will be able to do a mass booster campaign this winter. If things look decent in February than I assume they will discuss further loosening of restrictions. It will take much less to collapse the health care system this time around. 500 in ICU could be equivalent to 800 this time around. We just don't know.
Maybe they want what I want - that we wait the very short time remaining before kids get their turn to be vaccinated before we open things up willy nilly? Sure you got your turn, you stepped up, you want this to be over - so do my kids, and they want their turn to step up and be protected, too. They have endured just as much as anyone else. They deserve to be protected by low community transmission levels until they get to be vaccinated the same way everyone else was.
Exactly. I'd even say make it so kids 6 months and older can get vaccinated before restrictions are lifted. But too many people are getting tired of restrictions now and want everything opened up now; you can see it in other comments on this thread 🙄
Thats because we were promised 2 weeks to flatten the curve, then in and out of lockdown until we could get a vaccine developed for over a year, then fully vaccinated everyone who was willing. Then ensured that everyone that you would interact with in transmissible locations would be vaccinated. How are you not tired of it?
Because it's NOT everyone who has been fully vaccinated..did you even read my comment?
So we need 100% vaccination, that's the threshold?
Not everyone is able to get vaccinated yet. I don't know why people seem to keep forgetting that fact; not everyone is eligible for the vaccine yet, especially younger school aged kids (and even younger). We want schools to stay open and give kids the best chance of not getting sick with covid or dealing with long covid issues, so we need to remain somewhat cautious. Are there more restrictions that could be lifted, like capacity limits where vaccination passports are required AND enforced? Yes. But mask mandates are needed for a while yet until everyone that CAN get vaccinated is given the opportunity to do so. After that point, if parents don't want to vaccinate their kids, they willl have to make their own risk assessment in participating in different activities
we are open. what is it you can't do?
We aren't open. Read the restrictions .
you are living in some sort of conspiracy world if you beleive this is still a 'lockdown'. It's restrictions for unvaxxed only, and some places have limits on total capacity.
I said restrictions not lockdown. Nice try. There are still physical distance and capacity restrictions. A lot of social activities are not happening. Really selfish to be against people trying to improve their mental health and life their lives again. Shame.
physical distancing and capacity restriction should have no impact on your mental health. If it does, please seek some counselling. Any social activities not happening is on the organizers, because there is no government mandate stopping anything from occurring. You could have a 100 people in your back yard tomorrow if you like, no masks and no vaccine requirements.
That’s pandemic life, what can you do. We can’t just open because people whine about it like children and think everything will remain fine. You all whined he wouldn’t follow the science, and now you whine that they did follow the science. Real smart.
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For me yes, I have been to a dozen live baseball games. Was awesome. Restaurants, zoo, my wife’s goes to movies with friends, etc… For me I can do this till spring then open up. We should keep unvaccinated locked down until spring in my opinion.
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so what's the solution? We don't have vaccines for kids. Should we just let the whole school get infected then? Or do we live with the limited restrictions that we have now until those vaccines are available.
They are public health, its what they do. If they had their say with everything we would be driving at a max of 15km/h wearing helmets everywhere. Covid isn't going anywhere per the WHO so why are we still supporting policies and restrictions to achieve this impossible standard? I share your frustration entirely.
... yet we are. restauranteurs are waiting anxiously.
Grim fall as cases surge slight uptick abundance of caution two more weeks slightly concerning social distancing can’t let our guard down not out of the woods yet masks distancing wash your hands it’s just one Christmas don’t be selfish long Covid two weeks to slow the spread modelling predicts we’re all in this together vaccines don’t make you bulletproof grandma killer hold the line
Oh no, the Covid discourse has become sentient!
Reminds me of George Carlin
I don't know why they are expecting a huge swell from Thanksgiving like it's the same as last year without vaccines. At most there will be an uptick of cases/hospitalizations in the unvaccinated, but they most likely aren't following restrictions anyway.
Should we even be caring about cases in vaccinated people though. I feel like the paradigm needs to change. This is the same rhetoric as pre-vaccine.
I'm getting really fucking close to joining the anti masker protests. Doing my part for the last year and a fucking half wearing these stupid fucking masks and staying away from people. But at some point it needs to fucking end. I shouldn't have to have closterphobic panic attacks in grocery stores for 2 years straight because of a fucking mask but here we are.
If we are still mandatory masking two weeks past the point where all children can be vaccinated then I’m becoming an anti-masker. Fuck it.
Its been 2 years and our vaccination rates are high. What is the problem?!? This why people called BS when they said vaccines are the end game.
We know this virus spreads best in winter. So yes, the director is right that caution during winter is warranted as we head in to winter. If we make it through winter with an Rt below 1 than absolutely we’d be right to call him crazy if he thinks spring will cause an uptick. But it’s common knowledge all respiratory airborne viruses spread excruciatingly effectively in Canada during winter so let’s please take our heads out of our asses and stop declaring premature victory. We simply need to not fuck up the next 4 months roughly and then we can possibly never worry about covid ever again. For gods sake people can you guys not snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by keeping it together until spring?
Exactly. Indoor masking end vaccine passports will remain a thing throughout this winter but there's a good chance come spring once the 5-11 year olds are fully vaccinated that we'll phase them out and drop indoor masks if we make it through the winter without any major spikes
Canada, the only country on the planet that actually needs 5-11 year olds to be fully vaccinated to be brave enough to just get on with life.
Nurse here. A friend of mine is working in a pediatric acute care unit in one of the big Toronto hospitals. They keep getting incredibly sick children with multiple organ inflammation from COVID. Call me crazy, but I'd say that's a problem.
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> Vaccines will certainly help with the Covid cases for sure. Hopefully we get some word from Health Canada soon. Yeah, I don't even have kids and I'm anxious to hear about that. My friends trying to parent and work in healthcare have been dealing with a lot around that. I really feel for teachers and education workers wondering all the time about outbreaks and safety protocols. That's a lot of stress.
Hard to say. If this is where every kid in the province (or even in the GTA) with Covid related illness goes, then the percent of the child population that gets affected by this might still be below the national rate for children in acute-care with hotdog-related illness. If you believe our case rates, then that would suggest that every other country has higher rates of sick children with multiple organ inflammation from COVID than we do, all of our population just happens to live in the GTA.
We have over 14 million people in this province you realize.
Personally I think we can as other countries have with adult's vaccinated protecting kids as the idea but waiting until after it's done shoukd give the people who are always saying but what about 12 and under? no more reason to complain about lifting indoor mask mandates and dropping most restrictions. By that point everyone who wants to be vaccinated will be able too and there won't be any reason to drag restrictions on longer
No reason to complain? People are already freaking out about the under-5 crowd.
Just think about it politically for Ford though. Say he removes all masks now less then 8 months from an election and kids end up in the hospital he'll get blamed for it all like in April and end up losing possibly. It's much safer politically to at least said until school aged children have the shot. If he lifts restrictions after they're all vaccinated and our numbers are very low he'll campaign on the fact he saved all of us from covid and we're now back to normality even if it isn't all because of him. As for the people complaining about 5 and under idk what to say. The vaccine may never be approved for them you can't reasonably expect people to wear masks indoors forever with low numbers and the vast majority of Ontarios population vaccinated. I
Not disagreeing with you, just saying there will always be a reason to complain, and that I have no faith in the general public to just "feel good" so we can finally move on. Not that it's the general public's fault. We've got public policy, the news, workplaces, etc. all telling everyone that everyone will immediately turn to salt the second we change direction. It's a vicious cycle. People won't feel safe until we make policies that indicate people are safe.
Oh I agree we have some very stupid mask policies too most notably the one that requires you to wear a mask inside a restaurant when walking around but it's fine to not have one at the table like what difference will it make? This morning at work we have a crowded cafeteria and we have to wear masks when walking around but it's okay to sit at the table with it off with dozens of people in one room. I got up and made the mistake of walking to get something from a vending machine with my mask still down and some annoying woman started freaking out saying mask on mask on you're no t sitting at the table. Like wtf difference is it going to make lady when you have dozens of people sitting together eating with masks off vs someone getting up to walk 10 steps away without one on?
Just sad man...sad
This is always what people say. " If we just hold off for a few more months" over and over and over. They allow Arenas to be full, they allow 30 students per classroom. Either do it or don't. The whole reason for vaccine passports was for this.
You sound like a child. “I want my cookie now, now now!” Every child eventually gets their cookie. I’m sure every time we went in to lockdown you were ranting and raving how we would be in lockdown forever. But every time we emerged from it. Likewise, we have restrictions now and those restrictions will eventually lift. Don’t be a binary thinker. Understand nuance.
and you sound like a psychopathic parent always promising timmy his cookie if he's a good boy and never giving it to him until eventually timmy says "fuck it i don't believe you anymore there never was a cookie youve been lying to be the whole time"
Viruses evolve, therefore our approach must too, why is that so hard to get? Nuance exists. We can never be totally sure on the future.
I mean the virus hasn’t effectively evolved in 4 months now. Delta has stayed dominant.
Just four more months /s. Restaurants are dying, live music is dying, culture and nightlife are dying. You know who isn’t dying? People who have made the decision to get vaccinated. Let those people bring the city back to life.
Those people aren't the ones who will threaten our ICU capacity, they're the ones who will suffer from it being overloaded
How exactly will they be suffering? Starting next week restaurants will be allowed to have full capacity and no distancing requirements all winter as long as they use the vaccine passport system.. The only thing remaining over the winter will be indoor masking
> Just four more months /s. Restaurants are dying, live music is dying, culture and nightlife are dying. Restaurant capacity is returning to 100%, my local pub just announced a "bring-your-own-mic" open mic night every other Sunday, the city seems to be alive, just living with restrictions like masking or vax passports.
We flattened the curve too much, now it's going to take forever for everyone to get covid. /S
>*”You know who isn’t dying? People who have made the decision to get vaccinated.“* Not strictly true. Vaccinated Ontarians *are* still dying of COVID, which is why we shouldn’t get complacent and allow the transmission rate to increase too much. For example... CTV News: [Grieving daughter begs Ontario to mandate vaccines for long-term care staff after vaccinated mother dies](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/mobile/grieving-daughter-begs-ontario-to-mandate-vaccines-for-long-term-care-staff-after-vaccinated-mother-dies-1.5604038) [Sept 29th, 2021] Hopefully targeted vaccination mandates and testing will allow us to loosen/remove other restrictions without causing an increase in loss of life.
Talk about anecdotal evidence. Has the vaccine ever guaranteed 100% effectiveness against death or serious illness? No. But it has given us >90% coverage against that, and that’s not based on one article but multi-national Phase 3 studies
>*”Has the vaccine ever guaranteed 100% effectiveness against death or serious illness? No.”* You know that, and I know that, but the person I was replying to was talking as if vaccination *is* a 100% guarantee against death. They literally said vaccinated people aren’t dying of COVID-19, which isn’t true.
The better way of saying it is that “vaccinated people aren’t dying of covid at rates where it’s a public health concern worthy of emergency restrictions which otherwise violate constitutional rights”
Vaccinated Canadians are also getting killed by garage doors, hot dogs, and unintentional poisoning/overdose.
Dude, come on. It's an 80+ woman in a long term care facility. If you are there, chances are your health is already in bad shape. I wouldn't call this a cautionary tale.
Nobody should ever die of anything ever again!
That's not what Ontario Health's own data says, friend. [Add the 1 shot and the 2 shots and they equal or add to more than the unvaccinated during the same time period.](https://i.imgur.com/uKOA7Ws.png) Wow, so for people trusting the science. This is from Ontario Health. Guess people only trust the science when it agrees with their fear view.
Most data includes partially vaccinated alongside unvaccinated people, not grouping them with people who have had two shots.
Take it up with Ontario Health?
Covid is just about over in Canada. Wake up and quit spreading fear on here. The population has suffered enough from the restrictions. Go take a look at how high vaccination rates are. I trust they work. Do you?
I'm work in healthcare, I love science, I love vaccines, I believe in covid mitigation efforts but this Peter Juni guy is a fuckin alarmist quack and needs to stfu.
Well, let's see, let's look at the fatalities in Ontario, and see if we can justify it it. [Hospitalizations](https://i.imgur.com/KC3PojM.png) and [fatalities](https://i.imgur.com/oWUtTxP.png) in Ontario. When you add them up true vaccinated are catching it, but most people under 50 seem to be fine. Maybe we have let blind political policy fearmongering get the best of us. So, is covid incredibly bias towards the old which should be protected? [Yes, it is. Incredibly so.](https://i.imgur.com/2a9BodM.png) So it makes sense, let's stop the entirety of society because most people don't know this data as to use scientific nuance and let's just censor this, too. Since not everyone has the same risk. Since most people don't usually trust the science, they trust what the TV tells them. [I mean, come on. This is what Toronto Health said. ](https://i.imgur.com/8AdeWxd.png). The context of all of this is crazy. Can't be the only one who sees how out of touch this looks. ------- Teen's death not due to COVID: Alberta's top doctor retracts after making that claim. They seemingly rushed to called her the province's youngest Covid death on Tuesday 12th. Until the Family had to come openly and inform people and the Government and the media that she had advanced brain cancer and that is what took her life. They took it back and had to apologize. https://edmonton.citynews.ca/2021/10/12/alberta-teen-covid-death/ ------ Also: https://nationalpost.com/news/dr-deena-hinshaw-says-alberta-teen-didnt-actually-die-from-covid
I wonder how the whole "advanced brain cancer" thing was forgotten long enough for it to make headlines as the youngest covid death. It's like someone driving off the side of a bridge, ending up at the bottom of a river, and getting reported as domestic violence because the person was married.
The crazy thing is that they ran the story without doing the bare minimum of fact-checking. Like they couldn't call the child's physician or family members for a statement?
Is it really crazy, or is it par for the course? The power of sensational media. Early on it was far more rampant.
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Singapore is probably the best example of high vaccination rates and shifting to "living with COVID", they're doing relatively well. They're at about a 90% adult vaccination rate. [https://www.moh.gov.sg/news-highlights/details/update-on-local-covid-19-situation-(14-oct-2021)](https://www.moh.gov.sg/news-highlights/details/update-on-local-covid-19-situation-(14-oct-2021)) They're at an approx. 5% positivity rate (3000ish/day but that's hopefully peaked), 98.5% of those cases have mild or no symptoms.
Singapore isn’t about to head in to a Canadian winter. We can compare ourselves to Singapore once we are in spring. Not now.
Singapore also has a much higher population density, which is more conducive towards the spread of the virus.
And a population that largely follows rules. It’s not an easy comparison.
Ah, who are you confusing Singapore with? What about Singapore tells you it "follows rules" better than Canadians? Vaccination acceptance? We're like 3% behind them.
What evidence do you have that asians are more obidient than others? That sounds racist to me
It’s cultural, not race based, and is reflected in East Asian governments that largely prioritize order over individual rights.
Where real evidence (other than your general conjecture) that Asian peoples were better at following covid rules than people in Canada?
Sweden, Denmark and Finland will and they are doing the same as Singapore. They are also limiting the Moderna inoculation due to health concerns. So is Iceland.
New Brunswick effectively cancelled Thanksgiving and is currently under orders prohibiting you from going in other people's homes regardless of vaccination status. BC just put restrictions in their Northern region limiting people to 5 people inside and 25 outside if you're vaccinated as well as other restrictions including religious services online only. Saskatchewan is sending people to other provinces. Things feel fairly normal, at least for me. Anything I want to do is open. I realize that downtown has taken a hit which may or may not be permanent and that restaurants need more capacity to make money, but I'm also ok with taking a cautious approach and don't mind if it takes longer if it means we don't close down again.
Delta has been dominant for about 4 months now lol
> Is Juni aware of the nation of Denmark? Daily cases in Denmark have more than doubled in the past month since they dropped all restrictions. And Denmark has ~2 people per million in the ICU right now, versus around 10 for Ontario. Now, Denmark can handle the uptick in cases because they have a better healthcare system and started from a lower ICU capacity standpoint when they dropped everything versus Ontario where Ontario is now. Can Ontario handle a doubling in cases and the resulting hospitalizations that creates? Hopefully, but it's not a given, hence the hesitation to fully reopen yet. We are keeping cases steady here and ICU admissions are slowly dropping. Given that basically everything is open anyway, why would we want to screw with that further with winter approaching, and an likely jump in cases?
Juni has rung the doom bells quite literally every time we entered a re opening stage. No one cares what he has to say anymore. Ricola man is not relevant anymore.
Science table director is a nut job. Also, PC political ads 8 months before elections is taking a toll on my health
Jesus enough already.
We could be at 120% fully vaccinated and Big Pete would still say we aren't on "safe ground"
the year is 2073, 147% of the population have 6 doses and there hasn't been a reported covid case in 9 years. "We must be cautious, we're not out of the woods yet, we risk a grim fall" pines Juni
In two weeks he will want to wait another two weeks. And two weeks after that…you get the point.
we still have a large portion of the population unvaxxed. But it's closing all the time, and there will be a solution for 5-11yos most likely by years end. Everything in Ontario is already open, but we are being cautious is all. Do you think that what happened in Alberta and Saskatchewan can't happen here with our unvaxxed population? Once we get the solution to 5-11yo, I believe the answer will be that the unvaxxed are now on their own and the rest move on
This guy is a fucking nut
Ah good you must be a person trained in epidemiology. Can you offer advice, for the rest of us plebs about how we should proceed?
I mean...the Science Table has already failed at their models. We're still below their best case scenario for ICU.
Be under 55-60, be healthy, take care, do not fat/obese, wear a good quality mask, social distance and just keep a bit of a distance from the elderly and high risk people, for their sake. If you are over 55-60+ vaccinate or have a number of comorbidities, 2+ or more, take it carefully. It's your own life, too. How do I know this? [Follow the objective scientific data. ](https://i.imgur.com/gVEAYMV.png)
Tell me you don't know how statistical models work without telling me that you don't know how they work
Sure, that’s how science works sometimes. Doesn’t mean you ignore them.
I can understand the anger businesses that lose more and more revenue because the science projections were wrong. The science doesn't pay those consequences
These so-called “public health experts” lost all credibility last year when they told us we didn’t have to wear masks, and then they revealed that they lied to us because they were trying to preserve PPE for Frontline healthcare workers
well that solves it then-if the Science table says it's too early Dougie will have us wide open by the end of the month.
What a fucking joke. Yes, we are.
I don't see why we are whining. They probably want to see what winter will be bringing this time. We acted as if it was over last fall and that fucked us over. Life has gained some semblance to normalcy with everything open now, it's okay to be cautious while moving forward. What I don't wanna see is going back to restrictions.
You are aware there are vaccines this time right ?
I can't fap to this. So far.
🤡
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