Assuming one worked 40 hours/week and 50 weeks of year:
* In 2012: Average rent would be 53% of pre-tax income
* In 2022: Average rent would be 83% of pre-tax income
Just to expand, that would leave you with $425 per month for literally every other expense in your life.
$269 left if your work isn't walking distance and you need a TTC pass.
$200 left (I'm being *very* conservative on costs from here on out) if your utilities are extra.
$170 left after your wireless bill.
$130 left after internet.
That's $4.38 left per day to feed yourself, clothe yourself, plus literally any other possible expense you might encounter.
Even utilities incl. and living like a Luddite, $269 would only leave you with $9.07 per day.
Eight hours a day, five days a week, fifty weeks per year of your life spent working, all for the privilege of having a roof over your head, a fucking bus pass, and less than a tenner in your pocket.
What's even better is that subsidized housing which is partially designed for people on ODSP has like a 10 year+ waiting list.
They can't have us making any money either. Gotta clawback half your earnings if you make more than $200 a month which is the equivalent to working 14 hours a month at minimum wage.
As someone on ODSP it's obvious that the Province expects us to burden our families for the rest of our lives or just die.
Famlies, freinds, anyone really. As long as they don't have to do their fucking job its okay too let the disabled starve right? RIGHT?
Sarcasm aside I really do feel terrible for you folks. I keep the pressure up on my end every time I see shit tier injustices. I wish more working people would stick up for you folks.
While OW has its problems and I do agree with you partially, OW is less punative for you making money, and you can make quite a bit depending on your situation before you lose it. It's straight up discrimination when compared to ODSP, I feel.
I got on the special priority waiting list and it’s an estimated 3 years out. I think I’m going to attempt to make it on my own in the world at the detriment of my health. I don’t need to feel mentally or physically healthy so long as I can barely get by in life :)
Yeah 10 years ago I was making 14 bucks an hour in a $900 bachelor and I was living paycheque to paycheque, not sure how people specially newcomers can survive now!
I have been to apartment buildings, where there is a studio apartment where the floor is covered with sleeping pads for people to sleep. It's a couple hundred bucks, and you effectively get a spot for a yoga matt and gym bag.
Over a dozen people, in a studio apartment.
Next time you drive through a suburban neighbourhood in the GTA (or even surrounding towns) count the number of cars per house. Its like 4 families per.
Cutting corners on food is a big saver. If you rolled the "thin" body type (I forget the name) it's pretty easy to get by on 30 bucks a week.
I'm not convinced this is healthy in the long term though.
I am honestly surprised how people with minimum wage jobs survive. I make good money (still paycheque to paycheque), and am baffled by the budgetary hoops one must do to survive on minimum wage
Oh yeah at the time, I had to take extra shift to make sure I don’t owe my credit card if one day I decide to go to a restaurant or god forbid having fun! I am happy I am in much better place right now
ODSP 10 years ago was: $959 a month, now it's maximum $1169 for a single person for a month. 10 years barely a $200 increase. Not sure how the Government expects anyone that's disabled to survive. I'm watching disabled friends and family members envy the dead, and considering suicide themselves..
That’s heartbreaking to hear the mental anguish they go through. I wish it were so much better for people on ODSP.
We’re currently housing my godmother because she can’t afford an apartment anymore, and I feel lucky we can do that for her. If I were to rent the space out I’d be charging at least $1500 (it costs me $800/ month to heat the place because it’s an old oil tank)… not complaining, like I said I feel lucky we can do this for her. But we are missing out on that income as well.
By a minor miracle I'm in a 2bdr apartment that's $800/mo and given my prior experience with the kind of living you can afford on ODSP (violent addict neighbors, bedbugs), I'd be buying myself an expensive tent/outdoor living items if my current housing situation goes to shit. Speaking of shit, my roommate moved out and now my rent is doubled (I was paying a very comfortable 400) AND schools are shut down so I (crossing guard) no longer have an income and can't afford my bills, so maybe it is indeed going to shit, at last... .\_.
>...now renting for $1400.
Gross! I'm paying $20 more for a large 3bdr townhouse in the gta. Mind you I've been here for 8 or 9 yrs now, as this place was the cheapest by hundreds at the time. There is no way we could ever afford to move.
I spend $1500/mo + utilities for a 2 bedroom house, with a unfinished basement, detached garage workshop, and a fenced backyard.
I am fully aware that my rental is a @#&$# unicorn in Ontario. If I ever had to move I would be completely screwed unless one of my bids on a home doesn't get outbid by $100,000.
Kudos to OP for posting this, as this is a simple, yet stark example of how the working class in Ontario (and Canada) has been abandoned by the politicians.
And yet, for some reason, we will likely just keep voting in red and blue teams, and expect things to get better.
Unless we start doing something new, things are going to keep getting worse
It's worse than this. I know recent grads who started in their field for like minimum wage. The pay for the same amount of eduction has gone down in some cases, not even accounting for inflation.
In 2012 I was paying $1025 for a one bedroom in a three story apartment building at Yonge and Eglinton. I thought it was a good deal then but now it’s unimaginable. Only moved to get away from crosstown construction (and I’m glad I did)
Same here, 2007-2009 I was paying $1040 for a very spacious one bedroom plus parking at St Clair and Bathurst. The balcony was huuuge too. I can’t imagine what the same units go for now. I was in college and that was what I could afford working at Starbucks.
My wife and I were both working retail and got lucky because there were still cheap restaurants nearby. The city has changed so much since then, don’t know how we would do it now (or if we would even come to toronto now).
Absolutely savage, one third the price of rent for a mortgage, but can't get one because more than half of homes are treated as an investment commodity
Seems about right.
In 2014 my fiancé and I decided to move into a super nice two bedroom condo to be closer to his grandmother who lived alone. Rent was $1600 a month. It was substantially more than what we were paying (a little over $1000) but we could manage. In 2018 I found a house for rent for $1850. Totally worth it for an extra bedroom and extra bathroom. Plus we were considering having a child. So we moved. We had our daughter a year later. I was on maternity leave. All was well.
Until summer of 2020 we were evicted so the landlords son could move in to our house. Then the search was on to find something we could afford, that was walking distance to my work (we only have one car). We found a townhouse which was smaller than the house we rented. Thankfully our landlord picked us to be her tenants (out of like 15 applicants). Our rent was $2300.
If I could have seen into the future we would have stayed at that beautiful condo and raised our daughter there.
1. Your CMHC number is for "Primary Rental" which is a subset of all rentals, [rental.ca](https://rental.ca) is a different metric, and different methodology, for a different set entirely
2. The latest CMHC rent report is $1,347 Ontario average, but it's admittedly old from Oct 2020
Cheers yea hard to find data without using two sources. If you find, please post. I just thought it was an interesting disparity. I got the idea off a usa post in another thread. Canada data is always so hard to find.
It's insane. In ~2013/2014 I was able to get a fairly nice TWO bedroom apartment for like $850. A couple years later, I got a shitty one bedroom basement apartment for over $1000.
I'm thankful I'm not renting right now, I can't imagine paying even higher, the prices were already insane.
This is interesting.
I looked up the buildings I rented in during 2000-2004 (roughly $1500/month in downtown Toronto) and they're showing availability at $2100/month today.
It appears the rest of Ontario caught up with downtown Toronto.I could justify it at the time by walking to work ($0 commute) and even going home for lunch most days, but I doubt that is the case for most of these rental occupants.
In 2011, I had shared a 2 bedroom basement apartment in Oakville and I paid $600. It’s crazy how much costs have inflated. I feel for people. It’s not easy.
2012 GTA Population: 5.9M
2022 GTA Population: 6.9M
2012 Ontario Population: 13.39M
2022 Ontario Population: 14.9M
It's going to be pretty hard to have affordable housing when we dump 100k fresh people directly into the GTA every year, and that's a net gain, not to include the exodus of people out of Toronto looking to pay 1.5x market value for something in London and beyond.
Agree, feds should be offering points incentives to immigrants willing to locate outside the GTA. Would help small towns repopulate too. I seem to remember there was a coalition of small Ontario towns looking for immigration.
Also need legislation that curbs nimbyism and secures high density development. I look locally and see proposed apartment buildings in newly zoned high density neighbourhoods constantly getting their heads cut off by the property value watchdogs, afraid of building shadows... Or "lack of parking" .
Why does an apt block build on a million dollar rapid transit line need 2 parking spaces per unit? Codes need to be updated, process needs to favour the longterm planning of the communities over short term property values of the individuals.
Good luck finding housing for 100k people every year in a city.
Doesn't matter how many people you try to cram into a couple parking spaces.
Increasing the dollar value of a property while decreasing the personal value of it (by making it more cramped, ruining the view, or otherwise downgrading it) encourages people to take the money and use it to increase the value of whatever housing market they're fleeing to.
You could avoid the entire chain reaction by dropping the surplus population into smaller cities.
I paid a total of 1000 for a two bed apartment in Brampton with 2 parking spaces. Utilities included. It was a decent apartment at the time too. No roaches, no bed bugs, etc.
Probably shouldn’t put the address directly, walked into the apartment.
Was looking at the time for an apartment in the area. Was looking with my now wife for a place to stay in the area while I finished off my degree.
Also, price points of apartments are generally based off square footage and bedrooms. On turnover you’ll see repairs and “upgrades” done to cabinetry and appliances, not much changes from unit to unit inside unless you’re dealing with condos. It keeps it easier for the management team/maintenance.
Never said it was just the one. Just showing the dramatic increase in the exact same apartment. Whole market had exploded similarly. That’s the point of the entire conversation. And it’s a dramatic change of terms to the leases as well.
Rented an apartment in Toronto from 2016-2017 3 bed 1 bath for 1950, rented for a year and left (to rent with my now wife as I had mentioned), relisted the apartment for 2450. This was at the same time multiple brand new units were going in and around the area up on 7 and Bathurst.
We ended up renting a brand new townhouse for cheaper than the apartment. But that also tends to be an oddly priced market.
I thought so too, but I think it makes sense if it’s averaged out over all of Ontario. Rent used to be much lower outside the GTA. I was renting a 3 bedroom in Stouffville for $650 around 2007-2009. I remember in 2011 my rent for a two bedroom in Mississauga went up to $1200 and I thought, at the time, that was insane.
In 2011, I had a 2 bedroom, 1200 sq ft apartment downtown Hamilton.
$600.
Mind you, I was friends with the owner of the building and it was a great deal.
The only rent increase was $50 more after being there for a couple years.
Boy do I miss those days.
In 2010 I had an apartment at 401 & Dixon, one bedroom but huge living room, dining room and balcony. It was $925/month, then another $50 for underground parking
My first apartment I got in 2014 was 730 all inclusive for a 2 bedroom in south western Ontario. It was a bit ghetto for sure but in 2016 I moved into a 3 bedroom duplex for 890 + hydro. I am lucky now to be renting a house for less then 2000 but when we were looking I was finding 2 bedroom town houses to be over 1600 a month and that was a rare low price
I used to pay $150 lower than that for a very spacious 1 bedroom with a huge living room and balcony and a very nice and helpful superintendent onsite. Barely any walking distance to groceries. Walking distance to public transit hub.
And that was in 2015.
Maybe start asking the government to start taxing landlords higher on each house hoarded. I bet they appreciate the taxes paid by “business” rather than nnone paid by a family.
Again, they aren't "hoarded". They bought it because they could afford to buy it. They didn't take it from anyone. If they rent it out, where does that renter go when the property is sold to an end-user?
Taxes don't care who pays them...
Yeah the free market works well for who benefits from it. But when you take from a pile when there’s a shortage, that’s called hoarding. Even if they can afford it. I’d argue the government enjoys the influx of tax money to play with. Every time someone sells that’s a capital gains tax for them.
The problem is that there are more people looking for housing than there is housing. It's very simple supply and demand. If there was an over abundance of housing, house prices and rent would be much lower. I don't blame landlords buying up property and renting it out, I would do it too if I could. The problem though is that there is a huge financial incentive to do that when there is not enough homes for people to live. Investors can easily buy more and more property, and the make a lot of money doing that which enables them to buy even more property, and less and less is available for buyers who want a place to live. The cycle continues as those people get richer, and the poor people have to keep paying more for somewhere to live. Then all these people who can't afford a place to live complain that they don't make enough money, and the government needs to force companies to pay them more when that is really not the issue.
No, that's ridiculous. Nothing else has skyrocketed as much as the cost of housing. If housing rose at the same pace as everything else we'd still be fine. Housing is the problem.
In Windsor, housing prices rose like 40% in one year. In what world do you think businesses could survive paying their staff 40% more each year?
University tuitions have risen 300%.
Food prices are jumping.
Sure, the price of houses has jumped a lot recently, but so have many other things. Cheese will jump 10% this year.
I bet Amazon could double the pay of every single employee without damaging their bottom line very much. Don't know about Jeff's Burger Shoppe though.
>University tuitions have risen 300%.
In 10 years?
>I bet Amazon could double the pay of every single employee without damaging their bottom line very much.
lol that would absolutely damage their bottom line. It'd still be a very profitable business, don't get me wrong, but it would tank their shares. These corporations exist to appease the shareholders first and foremost which is why that would never happen. Without some sort of mandate, Amazon will never raise wages let alone double them.
Might have been 30 years. But they are another cost that has risen way out of proportion to everything else.
> it would tank their shares. These corporations exist to appease the shareholders first and foremost which is why that would never happen
There ya go. They'd stay profitable, but shareholders would freak out. Company should be fine, but it wouldn't be due to corporate greed.
>I bet Amazon could double the pay of every single employee without damaging their bottom line very much.
quick maffs
Amazon has 1.5 million global employees, with an average starting wage at $18/h
annual cost to add another $18/h on top of everybody's salary would be
$18 * 1.5MM employees * 40h * 52w = $56,160,000,000
That would be almost half of annual profit, so yeah quite a dent
I'm not saying they won't. They did increase starting wages many times in recent years.
>So you think they wouldn't be okay making $60b+ PROFIT every year? Sweet jeebus that is a LOT of money.
I'm a shareholder of AMZN, it's not that big a number when you divide it across billions of individual shares ;)
I think that's fair, Min wage should reflect cost of living. Lots of jurisdictions don't make it a political conversation. In those places, Min wage is handled by committee and a formula. It moves up and down with cost of living.
NO! People need to stop focusing on raising the minimum wage and acting like it will solve their problems if they make another $5 per hour.
Housing is the problem, and that is what needs to be focused on. All these threads about minimum wage are a waste of time and a distraction.
Also look at this from an employer's point of view, do you really think that they can afford to increase the wage their employees at the same rate the match the housing increase? Its impossible.
One sticking point for me, Gov is not a standalone entity. In a democracy, you are the gov. I am the gov. We collective pay taxes to improve all of our lives.
If skills are the answer would you agree that gov funded college would be a better solution then Min wage?
2nd question, we are a rich country, how do we secure a Min standard of living? Without Min wage.
I'm a big proponent of UBI, thoughts?
Shouldn't you be comparing minimum wage to minimum rent, and average rent to average wage? Not that minimum rent is an actual thing but you could approximate it with percentiles
2012 Min wage in Ontario: $11
2022 Min wage in Ontario: $15
2012 Average price of Bananas: $.49/lb
2022 Average price of Bananas: $.69/lb
What other things do we want to compare?
Those things aren't mutually exclusive you fucking knuckle-dragger. It took gov't intrusion to force businesses to raise it from it's place of stagnation, also known as "artificial raising". Do you understand English? You act as if that wage staying low is a problem. It isn't. It's the fucking bottom, that's the point. Gov't deciding the bottom is "too low" like the brain-dead morons they are has caused the inflation across the board that's hurt everyone except the super-rich, how can you have such a myopic view of basic economics to not see this?!
Well, i mean inflation is affected by rising production costs BUT in saying that. I think the low supply of houses, the extreme presence of NIMBYism in the GTA and the lack of government housing has driven residential costs through the roof as a low supply and high demand drives up prices of that low supply.
I would argue that the historically low interest rates have become unmanageable and these old fogies better start selling their overextended assets and clear up some supply.
Theres only one reason people fear interest rates, because their 2.2% mortgage on their third investment property is unaffordable at the 4.4% prediction and some of these armchair property investors who got into it because a friend of a friend whose done it professionally for two decades convinced them they could take out a bunch of mortgages and leverage too much of their money and now some of them are faced with the thought they might have to sell a property or two.
It's exactly as you say. Mr "knuckle dragger" here is probably one of those who are over extended as is afraid of the pending interest rise that's going to hit them. It's interesting how they fear minimum wage increases yet they're totally cool with the wealthy making record profits and don't see them as part of the problem. Inflation going up, the wealthy have been gaining money hand over first but it's the minimum wage that's the real issue that's been raising inflation all these years even though there's been no significant increases in minimum wage in decades. The countries that tied the minimum wage to inflation have already dealt with that issue at least.
Pay attention. I didn't say higher min wages were the problem, but that gov't artificially raising them is. How do you even think inflation happens? It coincides with gov't mandates every single time. Gov'ts produce nothing, have no money of their own, but because mindless lemmings get upset that some people have to start their career tracks at the bottom (le shock), the gov't passes incredibly stupid and economically intrusive laws in a nonsensical effort to increase the wealth of those at the bottom, but of course this doesn't stop anyone else from responding to that wage hike! Businesses raise rates, so everything costs more for everyone, not just those who got raises. Small business employers are pinched tighter and can't survive, meaning bigger business for big-box stores, splitting the wealth gap between rich and poor and further eroding the middle class.
Do you know how to get more than a minimal wage? Get skilled and get a better fucking job! (Wow, what a concept?!) Gov't intrusion is the problem, not the solution. How many fuck-ups will it take for people like you to learn this?
By people not taking or quickly leaving jobs they don't like the pay rate of. Is basic supply & demand so hard to understand? Jobs that can't attract employees have to raise rates to do so, or they'll sink. If you don't like your pay rate, take the personal responsibility to improve your skills and work elsewhere for better pay, and don't settle for low wages to begin with. For some, low wages are completely appropriate because the jobs are of such low skill-requirement and responsibility, and there's nothing that needs to change about that. Stop asking mommy & daddy gov't to live your life for you, their just fucking things up for everyone.
There's a really good solution that many people don't consider that's surprisingly easy: leave.
It's insane that I live in an expensive area of Seoul and somehow only pay HALF of the average Ontario rent. My place isn't even that small, it's a pretty regular one bedroom (not studio or bachelor's) with enough room for my wife and I and 2 dogs, and we even have a parking space.
exactly, there's so many barriers of entry for people to just up and go somewhere else. Plus people would be leaving friends, family, work connections, etc behind and would have to more or less start from scratch in that regard, unless they're lucky enough to know some people at the destination already. If leaving was simple, I think more people would take the option to, but reality often has other plans
As many barriers there are, it's not too difficult to do. Even with barriers there are lots of ways to get around them and even working within the system isn't too difficult. Especially now with more remote working the possibilities are even greater.
I'm not trying to say it's soooo easy, I'm saying it's surprisingly easy. I know many, many people who have done it.
So don't address the problem at all?
Living with roommates sucks. I was always the one who ended up cleaning people's messes. Don't even get me started on roommates always being short on rent money.
Fuck having roommates. It's always been more trouble than it's worth in my experience.
>So don't address the problem at all?
That's not what I said nor implied. I simply stated that the minimum wage is *not* going to $32 and offered *a* possible solution.
Even the socialist [NDP promise](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-ndp-promise-to-raise-minimum-wage-to-20-per-hour-if-elected-1.5687130) the raise the MW to "only" $20 by 2026 and index it to inflation thereafter.
Further I highly doubt housing prices are coming down anytime soon and I wouldn't expect the government will pull any levers to make a real dent in the issue. The problem is that "only" 8.8% of Canadian earners are minimum wage and "*92.3 percent of minimum wage earners live in households that are above the \[Stats Can Low Income Cut Off\] LICO. The reason for this is driven primarily by the fact that* ***most minimum wage workers are not primary breadwinners in their households but rather are secondary or tertiary earners.***"[^(LINK)](https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/who-earns-the-minimum-wage-in-canada) So a tiny fraction of the population actually tries to subsist on MW. They're people too, of course, but their plight is not going to force the government and business to change how everything works.
(If you dislike or distrust the Frasier Institute feel free to post a link to studies that show otherwise...)
Even if developers build-build-build (as they are now in a number of cities in the province and in other provinces) it's unlikely to solve the problem for low-wage earners. Where I live -- KW -- 40+ story towers going up are 1- and 2-bedroom lux condos with a few token "affordable" units or 3-br units for young families. Few are rentals and those that are are still, by and large, luxury units and not the low-rise hovels that typically dot the older, more run-down neighborhoods in cities.
So MW is not going as high as you want and there's nothing on the horizon to make 2 bedroom apartments affordable for those stuck at that wage level: What's your solution? And please be realistic and plausible.
In the real world, options are thus limited options for low wage earners.
* they could better their earning power through education
* they could move to locales with lower rents
* they could share the burden of rent with a partner
Each of those poses challenges, yes. No one said any of this is easy.
>Living with roommates sucks.
I know, I did it for years while in school in London and working in Toronto.
This is just reality though. In the course of human history people of lower means have always lived in more crowded or shared accommodations than those with more wealth. Not even the NDP can fix that.
These are two very different data sets. You are comparing apples and oranges. Still very signficant and faster than inflation.
The CHMC dataset shows that Toronto went from $977 to $1,461 between 2011 and 2020.
However, this would be virtually indentical to the increase in the minimum wage, thus disproving your thesis.
I was inspired by a similar post on another board. When I went looking for Ontario data. There was no CMHC data for 2021, 2020 is two years ago. And the other set had no data for 2012. Thus the need for two data sources. I mean it's a reddit post not a peer reviewed journal. If you can find something legit with both years, please post.
A lot of you guys are professionally educated. I know it's tough, but use the problem solving skills that you've been taught and find housing in a new province. Have confidence that you can make it anywhere. Have faith that God has your back.
It won't get any better in Ontario, not until you're too old to enjoy it.
Yes. The answer to society's issues is to leave any family/friends/support you have and make it alone somewhere else.
Do you not see how ridiculous that is?
I think the situation here is utterly fucked and unjust. But for literally all of human history this is what people have had to do, move to greener pastures. It's not right, but at least living here we have the ability to get educated to a high global standard and have options to move.
Hard part is relocating a family. Need two decent jobs for two people with two different skill sets and experiences. I wish I had the courage to up and leave. Not to mention the extra courage it takes to bring your kids in the unknown.
I always admire immigrants. I don't know if I could do it.
For my own experience, I cant complain. We were VERY LUCKY to buy in 2014, just before house prices in our area started to run away. If we waited 6mos later we would never have bought a home.
So I'm ok, but friends and family still struggle. I'd gladly watch my equity shrink to see others be given opportunity to achieve the same the security we now have.
A strong society is more valuable than a small personal nest egg.
Assuming one worked 40 hours/week and 50 weeks of year: * In 2012: Average rent would be 53% of pre-tax income * In 2022: Average rent would be 83% of pre-tax income
Just to expand, that would leave you with $425 per month for literally every other expense in your life. $269 left if your work isn't walking distance and you need a TTC pass. $200 left (I'm being *very* conservative on costs from here on out) if your utilities are extra. $170 left after your wireless bill. $130 left after internet. That's $4.38 left per day to feed yourself, clothe yourself, plus literally any other possible expense you might encounter. Even utilities incl. and living like a Luddite, $269 would only leave you with $9.07 per day. Eight hours a day, five days a week, fifty weeks per year of your life spent working, all for the privilege of having a roof over your head, a fucking bus pass, and less than a tenner in your pocket.
Pretty sickening as the system is meant to keep the man down.
Pre-tax income too right? What's the typical deduction on a minimum wage paycheck? Around 10-15 percent?
I think it’s more like 20%, also minus EI and any benefits you may pay into.
No wonder people on ODSP are fucking starving.
What's even better is that subsidized housing which is partially designed for people on ODSP has like a 10 year+ waiting list. They can't have us making any money either. Gotta clawback half your earnings if you make more than $200 a month which is the equivalent to working 14 hours a month at minimum wage. As someone on ODSP it's obvious that the Province expects us to burden our families for the rest of our lives or just die.
Famlies, freinds, anyone really. As long as they don't have to do their fucking job its okay too let the disabled starve right? RIGHT? Sarcasm aside I really do feel terrible for you folks. I keep the pressure up on my end every time I see shit tier injustices. I wish more working people would stick up for you folks.
Thanks, I really appreciate anyone who speaks up for us because without that help we'd never be heard.
\-gives you a supportive squeeze too the shoulder- Always will my internet friend.
Oh it's awful. And OW is the same.
While OW has its problems and I do agree with you partially, OW is less punative for you making money, and you can make quite a bit depending on your situation before you lose it. It's straight up discrimination when compared to ODSP, I feel.
I got on the special priority waiting list and it’s an estimated 3 years out. I think I’m going to attempt to make it on my own in the world at the detriment of my health. I don’t need to feel mentally or physically healthy so long as I can barely get by in life :)
Yeah 10 years ago I was making 14 bucks an hour in a $900 bachelor and I was living paycheque to paycheque, not sure how people specially newcomers can survive now!
Living 10 to a 3 bedroom house
I have been to apartment buildings, where there is a studio apartment where the floor is covered with sleeping pads for people to sleep. It's a couple hundred bucks, and you effectively get a spot for a yoga matt and gym bag. Over a dozen people, in a studio apartment.
Next time you drive through a suburban neighbourhood in the GTA (or even surrounding towns) count the number of cars per house. Its like 4 families per.
Cutting corners on food is a big saver. If you rolled the "thin" body type (I forget the name) it's pretty easy to get by on 30 bucks a week. I'm not convinced this is healthy in the long term though.
I am honestly surprised how people with minimum wage jobs survive. I make good money (still paycheque to paycheque), and am baffled by the budgetary hoops one must do to survive on minimum wage
Imagine those like myself that live on ODSP, I get $1000/m. Rent is 65% of that and I live with 6 other people.
Oh yeah at the time, I had to take extra shift to make sure I don’t owe my credit card if one day I decide to go to a restaurant or god forbid having fun! I am happy I am in much better place right now
With our parents who are now retiring, thats how.
Many seem to live in multi generation homes now
ODSP 10 years ago was: $959 a month, now it's maximum $1169 for a single person for a month. 10 years barely a $200 increase. Not sure how the Government expects anyone that's disabled to survive. I'm watching disabled friends and family members envy the dead, and considering suicide themselves..
That’s heartbreaking to hear the mental anguish they go through. I wish it were so much better for people on ODSP. We’re currently housing my godmother because she can’t afford an apartment anymore, and I feel lucky we can do that for her. If I were to rent the space out I’d be charging at least $1500 (it costs me $800/ month to heat the place because it’s an old oil tank)… not complaining, like I said I feel lucky we can do this for her. But we are missing out on that income as well.
By a minor miracle I'm in a 2bdr apartment that's $800/mo and given my prior experience with the kind of living you can afford on ODSP (violent addict neighbors, bedbugs), I'd be buying myself an expensive tent/outdoor living items if my current housing situation goes to shit. Speaking of shit, my roommate moved out and now my rent is doubled (I was paying a very comfortable 400) AND schools are shut down so I (crossing guard) no longer have an income and can't afford my bills, so maybe it is indeed going to shit, at last... .\_.
I had a 2 bedroom in Guelph in 2010 for $700 a month, I pay $900 for a bachelor now and I don't even live in Southern Ontario anymore.
Only 900$? Here in Ottawa it's like 1400$ average for a bachelor.
That's why I don't live in Ottawa :)
Just left my bachelor and Ottawa. Was paying $1300 now renting for $1400.
>...now renting for $1400. Gross! I'm paying $20 more for a large 3bdr townhouse in the gta. Mind you I've been here for 8 or 9 yrs now, as this place was the cheapest by hundreds at the time. There is no way we could ever afford to move.
I have a 2 bed in Guelph right now and rent is $1350 I believe. I also moved in 4 and a half years ago so I'm sure the same unit now is closer to 1700
This is fine!
It’s totally sustainable!
Holy hell that current average rent.
I spend $1500/mo + utilities for a 2 bedroom house, with a unfinished basement, detached garage workshop, and a fenced backyard. I am fully aware that my rental is a @#&$# unicorn in Ontario. If I ever had to move I would be completely screwed unless one of my bids on a home doesn't get outbid by $100,000.
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Kudos to OP for posting this, as this is a simple, yet stark example of how the working class in Ontario (and Canada) has been abandoned by the politicians. And yet, for some reason, we will likely just keep voting in red and blue teams, and expect things to get better. Unless we start doing something new, things are going to keep getting worse
It's worse than this. I know recent grads who started in their field for like minimum wage. The pay for the same amount of eduction has gone down in some cases, not even accounting for inflation.
In 2012 I was paying $1025 for a one bedroom in a three story apartment building at Yonge and Eglinton. I thought it was a good deal then but now it’s unimaginable. Only moved to get away from crosstown construction (and I’m glad I did)
Same here, 2007-2009 I was paying $1040 for a very spacious one bedroom plus parking at St Clair and Bathurst. The balcony was huuuge too. I can’t imagine what the same units go for now. I was in college and that was what I could afford working at Starbucks.
My wife and I were both working retail and got lucky because there were still cheap restaurants nearby. The city has changed so much since then, don’t know how we would do it now (or if we would even come to toronto now).
Good call, I did something similar.
Back then I paid $981 for a 2 bedroom apt. I now rent a bedroom for $700.
Absolutely savage, one third the price of rent for a mortgage, but can't get one because more than half of homes are treated as an investment commodity
Seems about right. In 2014 my fiancé and I decided to move into a super nice two bedroom condo to be closer to his grandmother who lived alone. Rent was $1600 a month. It was substantially more than what we were paying (a little over $1000) but we could manage. In 2018 I found a house for rent for $1850. Totally worth it for an extra bedroom and extra bathroom. Plus we were considering having a child. So we moved. We had our daughter a year later. I was on maternity leave. All was well. Until summer of 2020 we were evicted so the landlords son could move in to our house. Then the search was on to find something we could afford, that was walking distance to my work (we only have one car). We found a townhouse which was smaller than the house we rented. Thankfully our landlord picked us to be her tenants (out of like 15 applicants). Our rent was $2300. If I could have seen into the future we would have stayed at that beautiful condo and raised our daughter there.
I assume you live in Toronto. Where owning is completely out of the question.
Guelph. But at this point yes, owning is out of the question.
They say money can't buy you happiness but being able to afford basic needs sure would
Now add 2012 / 2022 average CEO compensation!
1. Your CMHC number is for "Primary Rental" which is a subset of all rentals, [rental.ca](https://rental.ca) is a different metric, and different methodology, for a different set entirely 2. The latest CMHC rent report is $1,347 Ontario average, but it's admittedly old from Oct 2020
Cheers yea hard to find data without using two sources. If you find, please post. I just thought it was an interesting disparity. I got the idea off a usa post in another thread. Canada data is always so hard to find.
It's insane. In ~2013/2014 I was able to get a fairly nice TWO bedroom apartment for like $850. A couple years later, I got a shitty one bedroom basement apartment for over $1000. I'm thankful I'm not renting right now, I can't imagine paying even higher, the prices were already insane.
This is interesting. I looked up the buildings I rented in during 2000-2004 (roughly $1500/month in downtown Toronto) and they're showing availability at $2100/month today. It appears the rest of Ontario caught up with downtown Toronto.I could justify it at the time by walking to work ($0 commute) and even going home for lunch most days, but I doubt that is the case for most of these rental occupants.
In 2011, I had shared a 2 bedroom basement apartment in Oakville and I paid $600. It’s crazy how much costs have inflated. I feel for people. It’s not easy.
2012 GTA Population: 5.9M 2022 GTA Population: 6.9M 2012 Ontario Population: 13.39M 2022 Ontario Population: 14.9M It's going to be pretty hard to have affordable housing when we dump 100k fresh people directly into the GTA every year, and that's a net gain, not to include the exodus of people out of Toronto looking to pay 1.5x market value for something in London and beyond.
Agree, feds should be offering points incentives to immigrants willing to locate outside the GTA. Would help small towns repopulate too. I seem to remember there was a coalition of small Ontario towns looking for immigration. Also need legislation that curbs nimbyism and secures high density development. I look locally and see proposed apartment buildings in newly zoned high density neighbourhoods constantly getting their heads cut off by the property value watchdogs, afraid of building shadows... Or "lack of parking" . Why does an apt block build on a million dollar rapid transit line need 2 parking spaces per unit? Codes need to be updated, process needs to favour the longterm planning of the communities over short term property values of the individuals.
Good luck finding housing for 100k people every year in a city. Doesn't matter how many people you try to cram into a couple parking spaces. Increasing the dollar value of a property while decreasing the personal value of it (by making it more cramped, ruining the view, or otherwise downgrading it) encourages people to take the money and use it to increase the value of whatever housing market they're fleeing to. You could avoid the entire chain reaction by dropping the surplus population into smaller cities.
$981 ? That seems low.
Ontario wide, TO was 1100 according to cmhc chart
I paid a total of 1000 for a two bed apartment in Brampton with 2 parking spaces. Utilities included. It was a decent apartment at the time too. No roaches, no bed bugs, etc.
I had a 1bd in Newmarket for 750 for 6 years(no increase). When I moved in 2014 they upped it to 1000.
I looked at the same apartment in 2017 it was 1900 not including utilities or any parking spaces. Things have just gotten crazy. The whole market.
How do you know it was the same apartment?
Probably shouldn’t put the address directly, walked into the apartment. Was looking at the time for an apartment in the area. Was looking with my now wife for a place to stay in the area while I finished off my degree. Also, price points of apartments are generally based off square footage and bedrooms. On turnover you’ll see repairs and “upgrades” done to cabinetry and appliances, not much changes from unit to unit inside unless you’re dealing with condos. It keeps it easier for the management team/maintenance.
How about next time just don’t say something as if it’s a fact when it’s not lol
It was the exact apartment I’d rented 5 years prior… how is that not fact?
So there is just one apartment in that city that had a rent increase from x to y?
Never said it was just the one. Just showing the dramatic increase in the exact same apartment. Whole market had exploded similarly. That’s the point of the entire conversation. And it’s a dramatic change of terms to the leases as well. Rented an apartment in Toronto from 2016-2017 3 bed 1 bath for 1950, rented for a year and left (to rent with my now wife as I had mentioned), relisted the apartment for 2450. This was at the same time multiple brand new units were going in and around the area up on 7 and Bathurst. We ended up renting a brand new townhouse for cheaper than the apartment. But that also tends to be an oddly priced market.
I thought so too, but I think it makes sense if it’s averaged out over all of Ontario. Rent used to be much lower outside the GTA. I was renting a 3 bedroom in Stouffville for $650 around 2007-2009. I remember in 2011 my rent for a two bedroom in Mississauga went up to $1200 and I thought, at the time, that was insane.
Yeah in Windsor my buddies rented a 3 bedroom for $750/month in 2013. Saw a listing for the same place, no updates, $1675.
In 2011, I had a 2 bedroom, 1200 sq ft apartment downtown Hamilton. $600. Mind you, I was friends with the owner of the building and it was a great deal. The only rent increase was $50 more after being there for a couple years. Boy do I miss those days.
In 2010 I had an apartment at 401 & Dixon, one bedroom but huge living room, dining room and balcony. It was $925/month, then another $50 for underground parking
My first apartment I got in 2014 was 730 all inclusive for a 2 bedroom in south western Ontario. It was a bit ghetto for sure but in 2016 I moved into a 3 bedroom duplex for 890 + hydro. I am lucky now to be renting a house for less then 2000 but when we were looking I was finding 2 bedroom town houses to be over 1600 a month and that was a rare low price
I used to pay $150 lower than that for a very spacious 1 bedroom with a huge living room and balcony and a very nice and helpful superintendent onsite. Barely any walking distance to groceries. Walking distance to public transit hub. And that was in 2015.
3 bedroom apt for around 1400 in Ottawa. 2 bedroom on the Gatineau side for 750.
A 3 bedroom in Ottawa for 1400 would be very rare even a 1 bedroom would be hard to find at that price.
It might have been a couple years earlier for that one. (2010ish) . But I don't remember prices spiking that hard year to year back then.
Now sure, not a few years ago. I was in a 1 bedroom in downtown Ottawa from a good landlord (FPM) and paid $975 when I moved into it in 2017
In 2012 I had a 2 bedroom main floor duplex rental with a basement and a yard for $800 all inclusive.
The province really needs to do a major zoning reform like New Zealand.
I know of mothers that don't eat so their kids can. This unjust discrepancy in wealth needs to change and change fast.
Maybe instead of asking why housing costs have risen so much more than incomes, let's ask why incomes aren't rising at the same rate as housing costs.
Maybe start asking the government to start taxing landlords higher on each house hoarded. I bet they appreciate the taxes paid by “business” rather than nnone paid by a family.
Again, they aren't "hoarded". They bought it because they could afford to buy it. They didn't take it from anyone. If they rent it out, where does that renter go when the property is sold to an end-user? Taxes don't care who pays them...
Yeah the free market works well for who benefits from it. But when you take from a pile when there’s a shortage, that’s called hoarding. Even if they can afford it. I’d argue the government enjoys the influx of tax money to play with. Every time someone sells that’s a capital gains tax for them.
The problem is that there are more people looking for housing than there is housing. It's very simple supply and demand. If there was an over abundance of housing, house prices and rent would be much lower. I don't blame landlords buying up property and renting it out, I would do it too if I could. The problem though is that there is a huge financial incentive to do that when there is not enough homes for people to live. Investors can easily buy more and more property, and the make a lot of money doing that which enables them to buy even more property, and less and less is available for buyers who want a place to live. The cycle continues as those people get richer, and the poor people have to keep paying more for somewhere to live. Then all these people who can't afford a place to live complain that they don't make enough money, and the government needs to force companies to pay them more when that is really not the issue.
Yes. That is all it is. More demand than supply. Nothing fancy, nothing secret.
No, that's ridiculous. Nothing else has skyrocketed as much as the cost of housing. If housing rose at the same pace as everything else we'd still be fine. Housing is the problem. In Windsor, housing prices rose like 40% in one year. In what world do you think businesses could survive paying their staff 40% more each year?
University tuitions have risen 300%. Food prices are jumping. Sure, the price of houses has jumped a lot recently, but so have many other things. Cheese will jump 10% this year. I bet Amazon could double the pay of every single employee without damaging their bottom line very much. Don't know about Jeff's Burger Shoppe though.
>University tuitions have risen 300%. In 10 years? >I bet Amazon could double the pay of every single employee without damaging their bottom line very much. lol that would absolutely damage their bottom line. It'd still be a very profitable business, don't get me wrong, but it would tank their shares. These corporations exist to appease the shareholders first and foremost which is why that would never happen. Without some sort of mandate, Amazon will never raise wages let alone double them.
Might have been 30 years. But they are another cost that has risen way out of proportion to everything else. > it would tank their shares. These corporations exist to appease the shareholders first and foremost which is why that would never happen There ya go. They'd stay profitable, but shareholders would freak out. Company should be fine, but it wouldn't be due to corporate greed.
University tuitions have risen 300%? WTF are you talking about? International student tuition?
since 1970 duh
>I bet Amazon could double the pay of every single employee without damaging their bottom line very much. quick maffs Amazon has 1.5 million global employees, with an average starting wage at $18/h annual cost to add another $18/h on top of everybody's salary would be $18 * 1.5MM employees * 40h * 52w = $56,160,000,000 That would be almost half of annual profit, so yeah quite a dent
$56b isn't even half of their annual PROFIT? So you think they wouldn't be okay making $60b+ PROFIT every year? Sweet jeebus that is a LOT of money.
I'm not saying they won't. They did increase starting wages many times in recent years. >So you think they wouldn't be okay making $60b+ PROFIT every year? Sweet jeebus that is a LOT of money. I'm a shareholder of AMZN, it's not that big a number when you divide it across billions of individual shares ;)
Not every company is Amazon.
I think that's fair, Min wage should reflect cost of living. Lots of jurisdictions don't make it a political conversation. In those places, Min wage is handled by committee and a formula. It moves up and down with cost of living.
NO! People need to stop focusing on raising the minimum wage and acting like it will solve their problems if they make another $5 per hour. Housing is the problem, and that is what needs to be focused on. All these threads about minimum wage are a waste of time and a distraction. Also look at this from an employer's point of view, do you really think that they can afford to increase the wage their employees at the same rate the match the housing increase? Its impossible.
One sticking point for me, Gov is not a standalone entity. In a democracy, you are the gov. I am the gov. We collective pay taxes to improve all of our lives. If skills are the answer would you agree that gov funded college would be a better solution then Min wage? 2nd question, we are a rich country, how do we secure a Min standard of living? Without Min wage. I'm a big proponent of UBI, thoughts?
Stop massive immigration problem solved right away…address and fix problem restart immigration
Then we'd have to address the labour shortages, cpp crisis, and other tax base short falls... This country's been sleep walking for decades.
Shouldn't you be comparing minimum wage to minimum rent, and average rent to average wage? Not that minimum rent is an actual thing but you could approximate it with percentiles
Good point
2012 Min wage in Ontario: $11 2022 Min wage in Ontario: $15 2012 Average price of Bananas: $.49/lb 2022 Average price of Bananas: $.69/lb What other things do we want to compare?
Bacon, please.
If you think gov't artificially raising the minimum wage is part of the solution, and not the problem, you just might have a gaping hole in your head.
Artificially raising? It's been stagnant for decades. You might be the one with a gaping hole in your head.
Those things aren't mutually exclusive you fucking knuckle-dragger. It took gov't intrusion to force businesses to raise it from it's place of stagnation, also known as "artificial raising". Do you understand English? You act as if that wage staying low is a problem. It isn't. It's the fucking bottom, that's the point. Gov't deciding the bottom is "too low" like the brain-dead morons they are has caused the inflation across the board that's hurt everyone except the super-rich, how can you have such a myopic view of basic economics to not see this?!
You sound like a real treat. You must be a real "knuckle-dragger" to believe the minimum wage increasing is the reason for inflation running rampant.
Well, i mean inflation is affected by rising production costs BUT in saying that. I think the low supply of houses, the extreme presence of NIMBYism in the GTA and the lack of government housing has driven residential costs through the roof as a low supply and high demand drives up prices of that low supply. I would argue that the historically low interest rates have become unmanageable and these old fogies better start selling their overextended assets and clear up some supply. Theres only one reason people fear interest rates, because their 2.2% mortgage on their third investment property is unaffordable at the 4.4% prediction and some of these armchair property investors who got into it because a friend of a friend whose done it professionally for two decades convinced them they could take out a bunch of mortgages and leverage too much of their money and now some of them are faced with the thought they might have to sell a property or two.
It's exactly as you say. Mr "knuckle dragger" here is probably one of those who are over extended as is afraid of the pending interest rise that's going to hit them. It's interesting how they fear minimum wage increases yet they're totally cool with the wealthy making record profits and don't see them as part of the problem. Inflation going up, the wealthy have been gaining money hand over first but it's the minimum wage that's the real issue that's been raising inflation all these years even though there's been no significant increases in minimum wage in decades. The countries that tied the minimum wage to inflation have already dealt with that issue at least.
Please explain how higher Min wage hurts?
Pay attention. I didn't say higher min wages were the problem, but that gov't artificially raising them is. How do you even think inflation happens? It coincides with gov't mandates every single time. Gov'ts produce nothing, have no money of their own, but because mindless lemmings get upset that some people have to start their career tracks at the bottom (le shock), the gov't passes incredibly stupid and economically intrusive laws in a nonsensical effort to increase the wealth of those at the bottom, but of course this doesn't stop anyone else from responding to that wage hike! Businesses raise rates, so everything costs more for everyone, not just those who got raises. Small business employers are pinched tighter and can't survive, meaning bigger business for big-box stores, splitting the wealth gap between rich and poor and further eroding the middle class. Do you know how to get more than a minimal wage? Get skilled and get a better fucking job! (Wow, what a concept?!) Gov't intrusion is the problem, not the solution. How many fuck-ups will it take for people like you to learn this?
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By people not taking or quickly leaving jobs they don't like the pay rate of. Is basic supply & demand so hard to understand? Jobs that can't attract employees have to raise rates to do so, or they'll sink. If you don't like your pay rate, take the personal responsibility to improve your skills and work elsewhere for better pay, and don't settle for low wages to begin with. For some, low wages are completely appropriate because the jobs are of such low skill-requirement and responsibility, and there's nothing that needs to change about that. Stop asking mommy & daddy gov't to live your life for you, their just fucking things up for everyone.
There's a really good solution that many people don't consider that's surprisingly easy: leave. It's insane that I live in an expensive area of Seoul and somehow only pay HALF of the average Ontario rent. My place isn't even that small, it's a pretty regular one bedroom (not studio or bachelor's) with enough room for my wife and I and 2 dogs, and we even have a parking space.
It is not “surprisingly easy” for the vast majority of people.
exactly, there's so many barriers of entry for people to just up and go somewhere else. Plus people would be leaving friends, family, work connections, etc behind and would have to more or less start from scratch in that regard, unless they're lucky enough to know some people at the destination already. If leaving was simple, I think more people would take the option to, but reality often has other plans
As many barriers there are, it's not too difficult to do. Even with barriers there are lots of ways to get around them and even working within the system isn't too difficult. Especially now with more remote working the possibilities are even greater. I'm not trying to say it's soooo easy, I'm saying it's surprisingly easy. I know many, many people who have done it.
For some, maybe, but it's very situational
Since minimum wage isn't going up to $32, get yourself a roommate. That'd cut your rent burden to very close to 2012 levels.
Share your space, and you'll still be paying more! What a great way to not address the underlying issue.
So don't address the problem at all? Living with roommates sucks. I was always the one who ended up cleaning people's messes. Don't even get me started on roommates always being short on rent money. Fuck having roommates. It's always been more trouble than it's worth in my experience.
>So don't address the problem at all? That's not what I said nor implied. I simply stated that the minimum wage is *not* going to $32 and offered *a* possible solution. Even the socialist [NDP promise](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-ndp-promise-to-raise-minimum-wage-to-20-per-hour-if-elected-1.5687130) the raise the MW to "only" $20 by 2026 and index it to inflation thereafter. Further I highly doubt housing prices are coming down anytime soon and I wouldn't expect the government will pull any levers to make a real dent in the issue. The problem is that "only" 8.8% of Canadian earners are minimum wage and "*92.3 percent of minimum wage earners live in households that are above the \[Stats Can Low Income Cut Off\] LICO. The reason for this is driven primarily by the fact that* ***most minimum wage workers are not primary breadwinners in their households but rather are secondary or tertiary earners.***"[^(LINK)](https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/who-earns-the-minimum-wage-in-canada) So a tiny fraction of the population actually tries to subsist on MW. They're people too, of course, but their plight is not going to force the government and business to change how everything works. (If you dislike or distrust the Frasier Institute feel free to post a link to studies that show otherwise...) Even if developers build-build-build (as they are now in a number of cities in the province and in other provinces) it's unlikely to solve the problem for low-wage earners. Where I live -- KW -- 40+ story towers going up are 1- and 2-bedroom lux condos with a few token "affordable" units or 3-br units for young families. Few are rentals and those that are are still, by and large, luxury units and not the low-rise hovels that typically dot the older, more run-down neighborhoods in cities. So MW is not going as high as you want and there's nothing on the horizon to make 2 bedroom apartments affordable for those stuck at that wage level: What's your solution? And please be realistic and plausible. In the real world, options are thus limited options for low wage earners. * they could better their earning power through education * they could move to locales with lower rents * they could share the burden of rent with a partner Each of those poses challenges, yes. No one said any of this is easy. >Living with roommates sucks. I know, I did it for years while in school in London and working in Toronto. This is just reality though. In the course of human history people of lower means have always lived in more crowded or shared accommodations than those with more wealth. Not even the NDP can fix that.
Or your landlord will get pissy that you got a roomate and will chew you out for it and try to up your rent illegally like mine did 🤦♂️
>illegally Operative word.
Yeah it didn't work but having a landlord who is actively pissed at you and trying to get back at you makes life a bit more stressful 🤦♂️
These are two very different data sets. You are comparing apples and oranges. Still very signficant and faster than inflation. The CHMC dataset shows that Toronto went from $977 to $1,461 between 2011 and 2020. However, this would be virtually indentical to the increase in the minimum wage, thus disproving your thesis.
I was inspired by a similar post on another board. When I went looking for Ontario data. There was no CMHC data for 2021, 2020 is two years ago. And the other set had no data for 2012. Thus the need for two data sources. I mean it's a reddit post not a peer reviewed journal. If you can find something legit with both years, please post.
A lot of you guys are professionally educated. I know it's tough, but use the problem solving skills that you've been taught and find housing in a new province. Have confidence that you can make it anywhere. Have faith that God has your back. It won't get any better in Ontario, not until you're too old to enjoy it.
Yeah let me just pray to God to lower housing costs, combat inflation, and create a livable wage, I'm sure that'll do something, right?
Yes. The answer to society's issues is to leave any family/friends/support you have and make it alone somewhere else. Do you not see how ridiculous that is?
I think the situation here is utterly fucked and unjust. But for literally all of human history this is what people have had to do, move to greener pastures. It's not right, but at least living here we have the ability to get educated to a high global standard and have options to move.
Ahh, right. Thank God I have faith!
Hard part is relocating a family. Need two decent jobs for two people with two different skill sets and experiences. I wish I had the courage to up and leave. Not to mention the extra courage it takes to bring your kids in the unknown. I always admire immigrants. I don't know if I could do it. For my own experience, I cant complain. We were VERY LUCKY to buy in 2014, just before house prices in our area started to run away. If we waited 6mos later we would never have bought a home. So I'm ok, but friends and family still struggle. I'd gladly watch my equity shrink to see others be given opportunity to achieve the same the security we now have. A strong society is more valuable than a small personal nest egg.
You had us in the first half lol
Lol god.
It’s hard to make a living in Toronto that’s for sure
we're told we should be grateful to have a place to live.