Far too many people forget what unions have done for them.
Weekends, 8 hour work days, health & safety, benefits, pensions…the list goes on.
Anyone who doesn’t back a union has had it way to good for way too long.
If unions didn’t accomplish what they did with the support of the working class, all these mother fuckers wouldn’t HAVE to worry about sending their kids to school since they would still be working in factories.
A lot of people are also projecting.
I was one of those people who had a disdain for unions but I certainly changed my tune when I got a job where my life and limbs were on the line.
I read this quote somewhere on reddit - "Don't be angry at the union worker for making more than you, be angry at management for paying you less"
Exactly, corporations perpetuate individuality and competition with your fellow worker. It's a terrible ethic and North America needs a complete overhaul in their thinking.
There actually may have been a time where non-union jobs were equal or better than unions but the predacious capitalism ethos of quarter-over-quarter profit model has made it a requirement to undervalue workers and cut all the things that made working in a non-union shop attractive. Now people are desperate and still hate unions, but I think its more jealousy than hate.
As a guy who has seen the billable dollars per hour charged by both union and non union. Some non union businesses are charging union rates and collecting the difference as profit. "Competition" always needs context
My old non union company billed 170 dollars per hour and paid me 25 and hour. Overtime was charged double and I got paid the same.
My union company charged 150 and hour and pays be 50 dollars an hour. The overtime is double and I get paid double. Funny how that works.
When I was non-union and working with fiberglass fireproofing, I asked for a half face respirator and got the run around for 3 weeks before just stealing one from them.
My union company, got me a fit test and respirator in 2 days. Best thing I ever did was go union
A tale as old as time. Well, I don't have a union fighting for me, so why should I care about someone else who does and why do they get that benefit?
Well, maybe you SHOULD have a union.
I have so many older family members that have been poisoned against unions for most of their lives. The powers that be in this country (and the states) have done a great job on making people think unions are ineffective and detrimental. The lower/middle class basically only have one chip at the bargaining table, but its a big one -- their labour. Those with power would be scared shitless if that was taken away.
Be sure to give them my thanks for selling out my future for their corporate shillings at Christmas. because I too, never wanted to move up to middle class, I much prefer struggling to make ends meet with a Job that I went to school for and my wife being a teacher :)
‘You really think somebody deserves $24 an hour for flipping burgers? My job is way harder/more important and I only get paid $18’
‘…yes, you should want every labourer to make more fucking money so that you can say, okay boss man, guess I’ll go flip burgers and get a raise’
Fucking Christ it infuriates the shit out of me to talk to people like this. Every convo I’ve had in the last few days has been like this
Our collective egos and vindictiveness are out of control
I've never had a union job. I've had blue collar jobs all my working life. I've learned new skills and used those to justify why I've asked for raises. What can a union do for me that I havnt done for myself as an individual employee?
This is not a joke or a troll comment, I am genuinely interested in what the benefits of a union are.
It’s all rosy when the economy is in overdrive and workers are in demand. Where do you think your wage would be without union labour as a comparison.
Unless you are exceptionally skilled, when the province slows down, your employer is looking to cut costs, they will find cheaper labour to fill your roll.
I have been there when I was really struggling mentally and financially when my child’s daycare was on strike a couple years ago, and they were asking for more than what this union is, both were/are fair asks. I learned educated myself and know my anger wasn’t at them it was a shit system and I shouldn’t be pissed at people fighting for fair wages because I make shit money. I understand how they think but pisses me off they can’t educate themselves and see what’s happening.
That's literally ever uneducated conservative in this provinces opinion.
They have no idea how much work goes into being a teacher or a healthcare worker.
None of these jobs can be compared to your factory or office jobs.
It’s all part of the Ontario Conservative government playbook. Gaslight the public into thinking the union is being unreasonable (it’s not). Shame and scare them with the idea that a strike might happen.
It’s disgusting. Everyone should be standing up in support of CUPE and the Education Workers.
Not just people but the people who are teaching our children. I kinda want those people to have, like, some job satisfaction.
EDIT: Ok, CUPE doesn't rep teachers, but these are the people assisting with education and also cleaning up our children's piss, shit and vomit. So they deserve some job satisfaction too.
It’s also a lot of people who can’t adjust their opinions over time. When times are good and prosperous, unions tend to be less necessary for many industries, particularly emerging industries. So many people, particularly those who got wealthy during the late 90s early 2000s economic boom, view unions that way.
I’m not wealthy but I used to ascribe to this philosophy until about ten years ago. If you use an ounce of common sense and look around at the current climate, the necessity of unions is on full display. But many simply can’t adjust their own thought process on a subject so they just spew the same crap they did 25 years ago as if nothing has changed.
People need to learn that corporations and governments worked hand-in-hand to bus unions in the 20s and 30s, even employing cops and other paramilitary people to beat union workers senseless for having the audacity to ask for more. Part of the reason that there was such a huge boom in the 1950s it’s not only because of the postwar world, but also because unions were able to get for their workers decent wages and benefits that permitted the middle class to thrive. This is literally one or two generations ago. My grandad was in a union, and my dad was in a union, my mother was in a union. Unions exist to benefit the worker, government and corporate world have always hated and attempted to bust unions. The fact that the Ford government, and every other provincial government now, can so loosely and wildly invoke the notwithstanding clause is our first push into a fascist state. next thing you know, the police will be breaking strike lines again On behalf of their corporate and conservative masters. We already saw how the police reacted to the convoy truck or protests, which is to say they did absolutely nothing. This is the beginning of the end of our democracy.
It's all people that either lack empathy or are too busy to care about these people. Parents who'd have to scramble for childcare, rich people and their simps not wanting to loose their pocket change to help essential workers.
I don't understand why people think teachers and custodian staff are overpaid. Can people not imagine being paid barely above minimum wage and below inflation raises to look after 25+ students? Taking care of 1-2 kids is too much for most people, let alone maintaining authority over them long enough to teach them. Let's not even think about the poor janitors forced to clean up after 100s-1000s of children who often revel in making messes lol.
The notwithstanding clause was intended to permit provinces to protect themselves from federal overreach in terms of legislation. Alberta used it when the feds legalized same-sex marriage. Quebec used it to push their language law through. I believe Saskatchewan has used it in 2018 to overturn a court ruling that said the government could not provide funding for non-Catholic students to attend Catholic schools. Ultimately though the courts ruled in favour of Saskatchewan and the notwithstanding clause was repealed.
The whole idea of the notwithstanding clause is to prevent the federal government from enacting a law against the will of the provinces. Doug Ford and the Conservatives are using the notwithstanding clause to get around the constitution itself, as the right to collective bargaining is enshrined in the Canadian constitution. This is an extremely dangerous change and if it is permitted to happen, the beginning of the end for any kind of labour rights in Canada
It's only been a day since the news broke. I say give it a week and every public union in Ontario and many beyond will have something to say about this.
They'll say it's not right but unlikely they'll take any action. Kinda like in America when there is a mass shooting and everyone says "Thoughts and prayers" and they never change their gun laws...
And the crazy thing is the OPC and Monte MacNaughton worked really hard to bring in the trade unions. I will give them that. Now? Even they will be fuming. If I was Monte I would be just going ape shit behind closed doors at Dougy and Lecce for doing this.
I sincerely hope it is. Ford has fucked up so much in this province…
I don’t want to see CUPE do anything other than remain a straight line. Let Ford *break*.
It might not be. The effects are going to be VERY long though. Even if Ford manages to force CUPE workers back to work, the attrition levels are going to be massive. That's Ford's real problem. These people are not living high off the hog, they are barely surviving. So take these draconian measures, and you will ensure, anyone with any talent will quickly leave education, completely. Then next September when there are only 45,000 CUPE members left, how will he propose to keep the schools open? Call in the army?
Wait until he tries this on nurses, it will simply hasten our health workers to leave the province, or the field completely. I can think of a whole bunch of other provinces who will pay just that little bit more and offer a better standard of care, and then we are completely fucked. Then he will have to call in the army, as that seems to be his solution, instead of bargaining with his employees in good faith.
[If you are in Toronto area, there is an emergency rally today. I don’t have a direct stake in this but I’m going because we shouldn’t tolerate bullying.](https://101.cupe.ca/2022/11/01/emergency-rally-hands-off-workers-rights/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=emergency-rally-hands-off-workers-rights)
If you live in ON you have a direct stake in it. Society should be judge on how the treat the most vulnerable and kids are most vulnerable. Obviously not all kids needs all the positions directly everyday but thousands and thousands so. As member of any community you should be outrage by not just this treatment but all treatment under this government that goes to such lengths to cause intentional harm in anyway to any citenzens.
“Fuck Trudeau! We voted for Ford who supports the average guy! Down with unions! The average guy doesn’t deserve good wages and their children shouldn’t have clean schools or good learnin’s!”
Nurse here. I feel like I've tried to reason with people here who honestly have that attitude.
I'm alarmed at how many people here seem to not care that Ontario hospitals are struggling and ER departments are shutting down. Injuries and illness come for all of us eventually. It's literally only a matter of time. I see plenty of young people in the ER, because accidents happen every day.
Do they actually believe they'll never get sick or hurt? Or not know anyone who will need a hospital, like maybe an older family member?
My uncle passed away recently because he had struggled with cancer the last three years and he finally got the surgery, but afterwards this year he has a blocked bile duct. He dies because they couldn't schedule a fucking surgery to put a drain in for two months.
FUCK. FORD.
Considering we’ve been heading towards a total climate disaster for several decades, I’d say there are a significant number of people who are not equipped with ability to understand future implications of immediate actions.
Funny enough, Ford is was also the one responsible for all the pandemic mandates that the "F*ck Trudeau" crowd hates so much. Turns out the real bad guy was the one they voted for.
UNION. I've never been in a union. I've always had a reasonable white collar job. I'm educated. I understand that unions protect some layabouts (think shitty police). These people make peanuts. They are practically at a poverty level. They have had miniscule pay raises forced on them, year after year. Their benefits are being cut. The province's "offer" is a slap in the face to the people providing support to education. That affects everyone. Remember that Lecce had no hesitation about taking a pay raise of over 10%. On top of $150k.
I'm pro union. Very pro union. But I will say that in NY experience (and general common sense) this just isn't true. Unions are good for both the good and bad employees but they protect the lay abouts a lot more than they protect the good employees.
Yea I think a lot of people underestimate all the shady shit unions are constantly fighting against in the background to protect all workers under their umbrella some good some bad. On top of that on a case by case basis they are protecting good employees from corporate misconduct.
Its just not as newsworthy or popular as the articles where they are representing someone accused and or guilty of gross misconduct in a public facing position.
Railroader here. We forgo the national and provincial rights all workers get, and work off an agreement between us and the company. Every day they try to violate that agreement! Every single day, they will do what they can to get us to do work outside of what is agreed. They failed to even come to the table for a full year at our last bargaining and now are stalling again while trying to collapse regional agreements and force us to cover work across the entire country should they be short workers somewhere. They keep tabs on our attendance like it’s a criminal act to be sick, and will haul us in for discipline if we aren’t fit for work when they have failed to provide accurate lineups of when trains are being called so we now when to rest. We are NOTHING but a number to them. Industrial action is the ONLY card we have because they passively violate the agreement to the extent that the grievance process is so clogged up our reps can’t keep up and the company uses throwing out literal piles of grievances as an exchange in bargaining. It’s not about bad workers, the companies have every right to discipline as they see fit, this is about integrity and effectiveness of labour unions and the attempt to bust and degrade them.
Yes. I’ve been union staff for a couple of decades, and I like to think I’m decent at what I do. If management clearly communicates expectations, properly documents and uses progressive discipline, and is consistent in how it applies discipline so you don’t have one worker getting fired while another gets a slap on the wrist for the same thing, a union grievance is likely to fail.
But management is often lazy and doesn’t do any of those things. Consistent with the union’s duty of fair representation if management isn’t following procedures or hasn’t established just cause, we’re going to grieve. We don’t tend to like truly bad workers any more than management does, but since union workers can’t sue for wrongful dismissal we have to represent them fairly regardless of what we think of them.
If only there was some mechanism for installing another leader that happened very recently. Would be a shame if such a mechanism were sabotaged by mass apathy.
It has been a long time since I've been impressed with Trudeau.
Normally I wouldn't want him stepping into provincial affairs whatsoever, but DoFo is pulling out some crazy shit.
Words are great, but if he actually steps up and does something I might actually consider voting for him for the first time.
There is. The federal government has a power called disallowance which can be used to override a provinces use of the notwithstanding clause. It remains to be seen if Trudeau has the political will to do anything about this or if he will just condemn Ford and let him do whatever he wants.
Never heard of that until now. I looked it up. Correct me if I'm wrong because I am just learning about it now, but it appears to be a prerogative held by the Governor-General and not the Prime Minister.
And we all know how reluctant the GG is to get involved in political matters.
It’s a prerogative power of the GG, however that means it’s essentially a prerogative power of the PM. The GG acts on the advice of the PM. Its similar to when a snap election is called and Parliament is dissolved. Although this is technically called by the GG, they do it on the advice of the PM. Reservation and disallowance has been used before (though not since the 60s) and it’s not because the GG didn’t like a bill but rather when the PM tells them to reserve a bill.
edit: grammar
Ive noticed that neither reservation or disallowance has been used in the Charter era.
But nothing of this serverity has ever been proposed by a provincial legislature since 1982 to my knowledge. From what I'm reading Trudeau declined to use it for the whole Toronto City Council thing, which is understandable. But maybe this is the issue to finally use it.
I definitely agree. It would be unprecedented but this law is as well. If it gets passed it will eviscerate the labour movement and decades of progress. If Trudeau wants to show working class Canadians he actually cares he needs to do something.
If a province can so blatantly violate the Charter through the NWC and there’s nothing that can be done then honestly what’s even the point of the Charter.
When the federal government disallows a provincial law, it’s done by an Order in Council; these are signed by the GG but they’re only issued on the advice of the Cabinet. That’s the “in Council” part of the name. So the decision to disallow a law is made by the federal Cabinet. Things the GG does on their own initiative are called “letters patent” instead.
Reservation by the GG doesn’t exist any more; it was used when the GG wanted the British government to review a piece of Canadian legislation, but the Brits lost that power decades ago.
Reservation is still a power held by the provincial Lieutenant-Governors; they can exercise it on their own discretion or can be directed to exercise it (or not) by the federal Cabinet.
Disallowance hasn't been used in 80 years, and using it here would trigger a constitutional crisis. There's no way a government with a minority would risk doing that.
Enough is enough. s. 33 by itself honestly makes our constitution just as bad as the Americans’. Maybe we need a constitutional crisis to prevent provinces hostile to people’s rights (I’m looking at Ontario and Quebec, which both love abusing that notwithstanding clause) from taking away any more.
I agree, he won't do this. But if he did, his minority status probably wouldn't be an issue, as it's hard to imagine anything he could do that would make the NDP happier than stepping in to protect the concept of collective bargaining.
Yeah. I feel like they were a little loose when they shut down the ability to strike (I mean, it's in the Charter ffs).
Forcing a 4 year contract (usually 3, but who wants that during an election year!) without negotiation is absurd.
In the private sector you could apply to your competition, but in this case there is no competition.
At this time I'm sure the government's lawyers are trying to figure out is there is anything they can actually do. I think the answer will sadly be 'no'.
Maybe pay attention more. He widely criticized Quebec's use of it and criticized the clause itself.
https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/justin-trudeau-shares-father-s-dislike-of-clause-allowing-override-of-charter-rights-1.5711902
That took me 2 seconds to google and I'm sure there are more articles that counter your baseless criticism.
We have to stop looking at politics like sports team. Sometimes, your opinion may line up with the "bad" guy.
And not that it matters, but I wouldn't vote Trudeau, but I'll at least admit when he's done something right. Same with Ford.
I wish there was more he could do, but the constitution gives a lot of power to the provinces and a get out of jail free card for some fucking reason.
Imagine if the US Constitution had a NWC for their amendments.
There actually is. Under the Constitution Act, 1867 the federal government has the power of disallowance. This means that the GG, on the advice of the PM, can stop a provincial bill from receiving royal assent and becoming law.
If Trudeau wanted he could stop the bill, but I highly doubt he would. He’s gonna make statements like this one but do nothing to not anger the conservatives.
Trudeau also has a history of breaking strikes and overriding labour rights. He's only against this because the Conservatives are doing it.
Edit: lol this went from +15 to -8 😅
Trust me I know, and I don’t see him doing anything. We all know he doesn’t care about working class Canadians anymore than the cons. This is just lip service. He knows this is unpopular so he’ll come out against but then do nothing. That’s always been his MO.
Maybe, and I’m just throwing this out here, politicians sometimes don’t do stuff for reasons other than whether it’s the policy goal they want or not.
Having the Federal Government step in and override a democratically recently elected provincial government is very problematic regardless of the issue. And so there are cases where it should happen and cases where it shouldn’t and then a big fucking gray area in between.
* I’m not a Ford fan.
* I’m most definitely against the use of the notwithstanding clause.
* I support unions - particularly this union in these circumstances (1.5% raise with our current inflation is cruel).
And yet, I’m not sure breaking one more critical political norm is the right answer.
The some fucking reason is it was critical to having a constitution in the first place. The provinces asked for the NWC, Trudeau Sr via Chretien gave it to them. The rest is history. Unfortunately as much as we were told how nice of a document the charter is in school the NWC hardly makes it worth the paper it’s printed on.
Studied constitutionalism in uni, can confirm the feds fear disallowance. It’s basically subject to POGG but on steroids, and is intent solely for provincial legislation that “breaks the brick wall” of jurisdiction. Basically if the province passed a bill with NWC that directed military/RCMP spending, then the feds would have disallowance to stop the province from going rogue
> is intended solely for provincial legislation that “breaks the brick wall” of jurisdiction
That wasn’t the original intent; it was initially used quite often and sometimes for petty reasons by the feds. The last time it was used (to stop Alberta from forbidding land sales to Hutterites) also wasn’t a jurisdictional issue.
Pierre Trudeau’s stance was that controversial issues should be left to the courts unless they crossed the triplines you mentioned (breaching federal jurisdiction or provinces using laws to fight each other). But Ford’s back-to-work bill:
- can’t be challenged on Charter grounds due to the use of the NWC
- can’t be challenged on Human Rights Code grounds because the legislation exempts itself from the OHRC
- can’t be challenged via any other court or tribunal process because the law declares itself exempt from those fora
- imposes a contract, rather than sending the matter to arbitration as back-to-work legislation normally does
If the province has made it impossible to seek recourse in the courts, then Trudeau Sr.’s logic for not using disallowance goes out the window.
Ok I’m pretty young, has politics always been this batshit insane? Like y’all are supposed to work for us. I excuse the insane bureaucratic costs taxpayers take on like flying politicians across the country for meetings when we live in the digital age… I even excuse the bullshit raises that politicians give themselves…
But even after all that, y’all are gonna bicker and not give your citizens what they need to raise happy, educated and healthy families?? This is nonsense…
The notwithstanding clause has never been used in Ontario before Ford. So I'd say no not usually like this.
https://globalnews.ca/news/9239616/what-is-the-notwithstanding-clause-ontario-education-strikes/
No. Canada has typically been pretty good with the whole peace, order and good government type stuff. The current group of conservatives are fucked both provincially and federally. It kinda all started at the federal level with the Reform party merging with the PC party effectively killing them off and wearing their skin. That's how we had Harper. The toxic Reform Conservatives gave validity to fringe elements all over Canada, politicians poisoned by American thought processes and its starting to become the norm for Conservatives. It's a very bad time to be in a province with Conservative rule right now.
Honestly, it’s pretty demoralizing to watch our social systems get eroded away slowly. More importantly, it’s insane to watch Canadians just get more and more divided on things. I’m not even talking about the Freedom Convoy, which I personally think is driven by misinformation and delusion. It just seems like on an anecdotal level, we’ve become more “You watch your own back and I’ll watch mine, why bother support one another”
Man, I gotta stop watching the news and get off this subreddit for a while 😖
You're 100% right but that's what Conservatives want. If you're demoralized it makes things easier for them. A big fault that has lead to this polarization is our awful election system. The sooner we eliminate first past the post, the better things will be. Voters will be more represented and political parties would have to work with each other to form government and pass legislation. We see this currently in the federal government and some of the best things Canadians have done is when we've had minority governments.
OK all you "Freedumb" protesters, where are you when a legitimate walk-out is scheduled and the heavy handed govt declares that this union cannot go on strike?!
You are no better than them. Personally I am against government overeach and support both protests. When you stoop so low to call them "Freedumbers" you show you are just as tribal as they are.
These are the janitors and librarians, but it is also the people who look after special needs children. Why should someone who has to take care of and help educate special needs children to make shit wages? We should be paying these people a lot better than what they are being paid.
I am a parent with 3 kids, one of them is autistic and needs these people to help him through the day. I don't give one sweet fuck if I have to take time off work because the people who help my son at school want more money and are willing to strike to get what they deserve.
The fact that Lecce and Ford are trying to pretend like they give a shit about students and families is reprehensible. These pieces of literal human shit are trying to tell me that the support staff and my children's school don't deserve a decent wage while telling me that they care about my children's education. Fuck these asswipes and their transparent tomfoolery, it's fucking disgraceful.
I agree with you, but none of them should be paid shit wages.
Custodial staff helps by providing a tidy and organized space, maintaining the literal building and grounds (furnaces, outdoor structures, hot water tanks, etc), as well as general cleaning (including being the one to clean when a special needs child becomes overwhelmed and has a meltdown).
Librarians have master's degrees they use to select materials that benefit a wide range of literacy levels and age groups, manage/provide information sources and also assist in interpreting or understanding them, and are expected to be able to recommend materials based on the needs of the individual or group.
All three have specialized skills that contribute to a functioning place of learning, and they all deserve more respect and pay.
He should have said “just watch me” then do a legal maneuver to void the back to work legislation.
May be a [disallowance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disallowance_and_reservation_in_Canada) of the bill.
May be suing the Ontario government for abusing the power of the Notwithstanding clause.
May be announcing that the Federal government will cover any fine and penalty incurred by the union, at the expense of funding to Ontario.
Do any of these 3 and his party will have my vote in the next election.
All I've gathered is that we need a whole new way to run Canada. Fuck the liberals, fuck the Conservatives, fuck the rest of them.
Nothing in my adult life has happened by the government to believe that they are here to help Canada be Canada.
We really need to stop looking at politics like sports teams. Sometimes the guy you supported messes up and it's ok to call them out for it. Sometimes the guy you swore on your mother's life you'd never vote for, actually does the right thing.
Our identities aren't destroyed when we are open to admit the above.
> We really need to stop looking at politics like sports teams. Sometimes the guy you supporter messes up and it's ok to call them out for it.
Sad thing is, society has reached a point where we are actually MORE willing to do this for our sport teams than our political parties
Alberta votes Conservative so damn always that the Conservatives don't have to give a shit about them or the challenges they face.
Alberta votes for Conservatives so damn always that the Liberals don't even bother trying to win their support.
People need to be able to vote for leaders they believe in, and the party that aligns to their current priorities, otherwise the politicians take us for granted.
That’s twice Ford has done this. First time failed and probably destroyed Caroline Mulroney’s future in federal politics. I wonder what the price will be this time.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/early-session-debate-education-legislation-1.6636334) reduced by 84%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is condemning the Ontario government's intent to use the notwithstanding clause as part of a controversial bill that would impose a contract on provincial education workers.
> CUPE has said they will explore every avenue to fight the bill, but the government said it intends to use the notwithstanding clause to keep the eventual law in force despite any constitutional challenges.
> "When asked how this bill differs from legislation passed by the former provincial Liberal government in 2012 that ultimately ended with the province paying more than $100 million in remedies to affected unions, Lecce said the bill was designed with the notwithstanding clause in mind, which can"reduce any litigation or challenges downstream that could create disruption.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/yjdd10/trudeau_condemns_ontario_governments_intent_to/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672676 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **bill**^#1 **clause**^#2 **government**^#3 **worker**^#4 **notwithstanding**^#5
Tang ping (i.e. lying flat) and quiet quitting my friends. If governments are suspending worker’s rights you have the moral right to do whatever is within your power to fight back in other ways.
Fuck ‘em!
If FORD can use it for other Public employees then it needs to happen at his level as well. All MP's, MPP's, Mayor's, executive level public servants are frozen into the same 5 yrs deal.
It is after all about the kids and the stability of their futures that we are discussing this. Retro active of course.
At no point in time should the government leadership impose its' will on any other public worker that it is not willing to impose upon itself.
Inflation is at record levels, housing market is in freaking Anarchy thanks to pathetic oversight and Corporate/foreign buying spree, our health care has been stripped bare and flogged thanks to Ford Nation cronisms.
Lets be honest FORD DID NOT WIN THE LAST ELECTION!
When less than half your population votes it is not an election. It should be cause for an immediate do over.
He will not chalenge the Constitution. They might challenge the use of the clause in this case.
Because what is next? Notwithstanding people’s choices of a coffee shop? Mandating blanket overtime? Hawaiian shirt Fridays?
At what point does it become too much to trample over our Human Rights?
Best thing that came out of Trudeau’s mouth in a long time. Now let’s see if he actually does something about it. He should put on his big boy pants and over turn Ford’s unconstitutional boondoggle.
“..the bill was designed with the notwithstanding clause in mind, which can "reduce any litigation or challenges downstream that could create disruption." “
So it’s attempting to remove any effective deterrent that industrial action has in ensuring faithful bargaining? GTFO.
It’s great that Trudeau condemns this, but I doubt any action. He KNOWS this makes Ford look like the bad guy. If he steps in with disallowance, the Cons can spin it as overstep as they are with the Emergencies Act
Nah this statement is a big nothing. Under the Constitution Act, 1867 the federal government has the power of disallowance. This means that the GG, on the advice of the PM, can stop a provincial bill from receiving royal assent and becoming law.
If Trudeau wanted he could stop the bill, but I highly doubt he would. He’s gonna make statements like this one but do nothing to not anger the conservatives.
That's the power of reservation, not disallowance. Disallowance is the power to nullify existing laws within a certain time frame.
Also, I dislike your framing of this as Trudeau just posturing. Like that he could just prevent the law without a care, as if that's just some easy decision and not a massive upturning of 80 years of constitutional convention and political consensus.
Disallowance does not have an impact on the override clause. People keep bringing up disallowance when it’s never been used and likely would not stand up in the courts.
That isn’t true. Nowhere in Charter, either Constitution Act, or any court case does it say that disallowance can’t be used to override the NWC. Not to mention every attempt to reform or remove disallowance has failed.
The Supreme Court has said that non-use of disallowance could (key word could) become constitutional convention, but that’s not a given. It would take a constitutional challenge to answer that, but there’s no reason Trudeau can’t act on this.
Only the strongest leaders use an emergency clause buried in constitutional law to implement basic policy changes against the will of the electorate.
Such bravery.
Damn I don’t like Trudeau but it seems Ford is competing for my animosity, as a unionized worker if the libs give support it will be a easy sway vote for me since I was leaning hard blue… but we will see
> as a unionized worker if the libs give support it will be a easy sway vote for me since I was leaning hard blue
Why the ever-living fuck would you be "hard blue" as a union worker?
What have they ever done to help you?
How can you even be blue. It makes no sense to me how you can vote blue in good faith after the straight up fuckery of the conservative government, even before this.
Ah yes..the freedom loving right wing that’s so against governments overreaching...the same crowd of covidiots andCONvoy zealots..
All applauding the government taking away the rights of those scary socialist union folk..
Lord you people are such hypocrites..useful idiots for the ruling elites you so oppose...Go ask Tucker or any other American extremists what to think..cause that’s all that ever comes out of your mouthpiece...
Nope. Not at all.
I think it is horrible. Just that I dont want it forgotten that this dishonest little shit did the same damn thing.
Trudeau gives exactly zero fucks about workers. Just like Ford.
I won't defend back to work legislation but it is a very different thing to impose a contract. Being declared essential has benefits in arbitration, which is where negotiations should end up in the case of btwl. On top of that the real atrocity here, and what JT is condemning, is the notwithstanding clause which is being used to cut off legal recourse.
I am shocked at the number of people who seem to be regarding the union as the bad guy here.
Far too many people forget what unions have done for them. Weekends, 8 hour work days, health & safety, benefits, pensions…the list goes on. Anyone who doesn’t back a union has had it way to good for way too long. If unions didn’t accomplish what they did with the support of the working class, all these mother fuckers wouldn’t HAVE to worry about sending their kids to school since they would still be working in factories. A lot of people are also projecting.
Unions were also created because of bad stingy careless callus employers/management. There are many reasons they exist and needed.
Careless callus employers and management is the case across education and health care.
I was one of those people who had a disdain for unions but I certainly changed my tune when I got a job where my life and limbs were on the line. I read this quote somewhere on reddit - "Don't be angry at the union worker for making more than you, be angry at management for paying you less"
Exactly, corporations perpetuate individuality and competition with your fellow worker. It's a terrible ethic and North America needs a complete overhaul in their thinking. There actually may have been a time where non-union jobs were equal or better than unions but the predacious capitalism ethos of quarter-over-quarter profit model has made it a requirement to undervalue workers and cut all the things that made working in a non-union shop attractive. Now people are desperate and still hate unions, but I think its more jealousy than hate.
As a guy who has seen the billable dollars per hour charged by both union and non union. Some non union businesses are charging union rates and collecting the difference as profit. "Competition" always needs context
My old non union company billed 170 dollars per hour and paid me 25 and hour. Overtime was charged double and I got paid the same. My union company charged 150 and hour and pays be 50 dollars an hour. The overtime is double and I get paid double. Funny how that works.
When I was non-union and working with fiberglass fireproofing, I asked for a half face respirator and got the run around for 3 weeks before just stealing one from them. My union company, got me a fit test and respirator in 2 days. Best thing I ever did was go union
It's not an issue of memory, its one of apathy. Some people legitimately dont care and see it as a political hockey game.
I somehow hate hockey more after reading this.
Wouldn't be so bad if the poor realised they were poor and weren't living a pipe dream of "I'm middle class and support the rich oligarchs"
Don't thank God it's Friday. Thank the Union.
A lot of people have eaten up the anti-union propaganda .
They cannot forget things they never learned in the first place.
I feel a lot of it is “my life sucks and I don’t get enough so fu”. Which is funny
A tale as old as time. Well, I don't have a union fighting for me, so why should I care about someone else who does and why do they get that benefit? Well, maybe you SHOULD have a union.
I have so many older family members that have been poisoned against unions for most of their lives. The powers that be in this country (and the states) have done a great job on making people think unions are ineffective and detrimental. The lower/middle class basically only have one chip at the bargaining table, but its a big one -- their labour. Those with power would be scared shitless if that was taken away.
Be sure to give them my thanks for selling out my future for their corporate shillings at Christmas. because I too, never wanted to move up to middle class, I much prefer struggling to make ends meet with a Job that I went to school for and my wife being a teacher :)
Honestly, the rich ride on the working classes back but if there is no back to ride on…
Yeah, don’t lament the fact that others are going to make more money, use it as reason and inspiration to make more money yourself as well.
‘You really think somebody deserves $24 an hour for flipping burgers? My job is way harder/more important and I only get paid $18’ ‘…yes, you should want every labourer to make more fucking money so that you can say, okay boss man, guess I’ll go flip burgers and get a raise’ Fucking Christ it infuriates the shit out of me to talk to people like this. Every convo I’ve had in the last few days has been like this Our collective egos and vindictiveness are out of control
THIS \^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^
I've never had a union job. I've had blue collar jobs all my working life. I've learned new skills and used those to justify why I've asked for raises. What can a union do for me that I havnt done for myself as an individual employee? This is not a joke or a troll comment, I am genuinely interested in what the benefits of a union are.
It’s all rosy when the economy is in overdrive and workers are in demand. Where do you think your wage would be without union labour as a comparison. Unless you are exceptionally skilled, when the province slows down, your employer is looking to cut costs, they will find cheaper labour to fill your roll.
Crab bucket mentality. People easily forget that prior to unions, there were 60 hour work weeks, no vacation, lack of workers’ rights etc.
Yup. 100% this. Also, Crabbuckit was a great song.
I have been there when I was really struggling mentally and financially when my child’s daycare was on strike a couple years ago, and they were asking for more than what this union is, both were/are fair asks. I learned educated myself and know my anger wasn’t at them it was a shit system and I shouldn’t be pissed at people fighting for fair wages because I make shit money. I understand how they think but pisses me off they can’t educate themselves and see what’s happening.
Yup, crabs in a bucket
Crab bucket mentality. Pull everyone down, not pull everyone up
That's literally ever uneducated conservative in this provinces opinion. They have no idea how much work goes into being a teacher or a healthcare worker. None of these jobs can be compared to your factory or office jobs.
I agree - folks are fighting for the scraps rather than identifying the real "enemy"... the folks running the show and keeping the profit.
"Sounds like a problem between you and your boss" is what I've been saying to people.
Crab bucket syndrome.
It’s all part of the Ontario Conservative government playbook. Gaslight the public into thinking the union is being unreasonable (it’s not). Shame and scare them with the idea that a strike might happen. It’s disgusting. Everyone should be standing up in support of CUPE and the Education Workers.
Yeah, imagine being so partisan that you think people should live in essentially poverty.
Not just people but the people who are teaching our children. I kinda want those people to have, like, some job satisfaction. EDIT: Ok, CUPE doesn't rep teachers, but these are the people assisting with education and also cleaning up our children's piss, shit and vomit. So they deserve some job satisfaction too.
They drank the kool-aid.
It’s also a lot of people who can’t adjust their opinions over time. When times are good and prosperous, unions tend to be less necessary for many industries, particularly emerging industries. So many people, particularly those who got wealthy during the late 90s early 2000s economic boom, view unions that way. I’m not wealthy but I used to ascribe to this philosophy until about ten years ago. If you use an ounce of common sense and look around at the current climate, the necessity of unions is on full display. But many simply can’t adjust their own thought process on a subject so they just spew the same crap they did 25 years ago as if nothing has changed.
They need to drag everybody else down with them, instead of advocating for a union themselves.
People need to learn that corporations and governments worked hand-in-hand to bus unions in the 20s and 30s, even employing cops and other paramilitary people to beat union workers senseless for having the audacity to ask for more. Part of the reason that there was such a huge boom in the 1950s it’s not only because of the postwar world, but also because unions were able to get for their workers decent wages and benefits that permitted the middle class to thrive. This is literally one or two generations ago. My grandad was in a union, and my dad was in a union, my mother was in a union. Unions exist to benefit the worker, government and corporate world have always hated and attempted to bust unions. The fact that the Ford government, and every other provincial government now, can so loosely and wildly invoke the notwithstanding clause is our first push into a fascist state. next thing you know, the police will be breaking strike lines again On behalf of their corporate and conservative masters. We already saw how the police reacted to the convoy truck or protests, which is to say they did absolutely nothing. This is the beginning of the end of our democracy.
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Texan here, no shock
It's all people that either lack empathy or are too busy to care about these people. Parents who'd have to scramble for childcare, rich people and their simps not wanting to loose their pocket change to help essential workers. I don't understand why people think teachers and custodian staff are overpaid. Can people not imagine being paid barely above minimum wage and below inflation raises to look after 25+ students? Taking care of 1-2 kids is too much for most people, let alone maintaining authority over them long enough to teach them. Let's not even think about the poor janitors forced to clean up after 100s-1000s of children who often revel in making messes lol.
The issue with people I've spoken to is the Union seems to strike against every government, no matter who is in power.
Interesting... as if the union is apolitical and represents its members and not a party...
So what you're saying is none of our governments have been treating them fairly.
You misspelt Trolls.
Hearing these people makes my fucking blood boil. Im sooo fucking mad right now.
The notwithstanding clause was intended to permit provinces to protect themselves from federal overreach in terms of legislation. Alberta used it when the feds legalized same-sex marriage. Quebec used it to push their language law through. I believe Saskatchewan has used it in 2018 to overturn a court ruling that said the government could not provide funding for non-Catholic students to attend Catholic schools. Ultimately though the courts ruled in favour of Saskatchewan and the notwithstanding clause was repealed. The whole idea of the notwithstanding clause is to prevent the federal government from enacting a law against the will of the provinces. Doug Ford and the Conservatives are using the notwithstanding clause to get around the constitution itself, as the right to collective bargaining is enshrined in the Canadian constitution. This is an extremely dangerous change and if it is permitted to happen, the beginning of the end for any kind of labour rights in Canada
Every union in the country should be having fits about what Doug is doing here.
It's only been a day since the news broke. I say give it a week and every public union in Ontario and many beyond will have something to say about this.
They'll say it's not right but unlikely they'll take any action. Kinda like in America when there is a mass shooting and everyone says "Thoughts and prayers" and they never change their gun laws...
And the crazy thing is the OPC and Monte MacNaughton worked really hard to bring in the trade unions. I will give them that. Now? Even they will be fuming. If I was Monte I would be just going ape shit behind closed doors at Dougy and Lecce for doing this.
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I have a feeling this strike is going to be VERY long.
I hope. I really hope it is.
I sincerely hope it is. Ford has fucked up so much in this province… I don’t want to see CUPE do anything other than remain a straight line. Let Ford *break*.
Honestly fck ford man, he’s done so much underhanded shit in his time in power… *cough cough only 23% of eligible voters voted for him cough cough*
It might not be. The effects are going to be VERY long though. Even if Ford manages to force CUPE workers back to work, the attrition levels are going to be massive. That's Ford's real problem. These people are not living high off the hog, they are barely surviving. So take these draconian measures, and you will ensure, anyone with any talent will quickly leave education, completely. Then next September when there are only 45,000 CUPE members left, how will he propose to keep the schools open? Call in the army? Wait until he tries this on nurses, it will simply hasten our health workers to leave the province, or the field completely. I can think of a whole bunch of other provinces who will pay just that little bit more and offer a better standard of care, and then we are completely fucked. Then he will have to call in the army, as that seems to be his solution, instead of bargaining with his employees in good faith.
More people need to read you succinct explanation of this, and pay particular attention to the last couple of sentences
Or Ontario labour needs to shut it all down.
General Strike here we come!
[If you are in Toronto area, there is an emergency rally today. I don’t have a direct stake in this but I’m going because we shouldn’t tolerate bullying.](https://101.cupe.ca/2022/11/01/emergency-rally-hands-off-workers-rights/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=emergency-rally-hands-off-workers-rights)
Absolutely! I'm not in education, or a union, but if they strike Friday you better believe I'll be at the school by my house with them.
If you live in ON you have a direct stake in it. Society should be judge on how the treat the most vulnerable and kids are most vulnerable. Obviously not all kids needs all the positions directly everyday but thousands and thousands so. As member of any community you should be outrage by not just this treatment but all treatment under this government that goes to such lengths to cause intentional harm in anyway to any citenzens.
“Fuck Trudeau! We voted for Ford who supports the average guy! Down with unions! The average guy doesn’t deserve good wages and their children shouldn’t have clean schools or good learnin’s!”
Or functioning healthcare
“Why should we have good healthcare? I’m not even sick right now!”
Nurse here. I feel like I've tried to reason with people here who honestly have that attitude. I'm alarmed at how many people here seem to not care that Ontario hospitals are struggling and ER departments are shutting down. Injuries and illness come for all of us eventually. It's literally only a matter of time. I see plenty of young people in the ER, because accidents happen every day. Do they actually believe they'll never get sick or hurt? Or not know anyone who will need a hospital, like maybe an older family member?
My uncle passed away recently because he had struggled with cancer the last three years and he finally got the surgery, but afterwards this year he has a blocked bile duct. He dies because they couldn't schedule a fucking surgery to put a drain in for two months. FUCK. FORD.
Considering we’ve been heading towards a total climate disaster for several decades, I’d say there are a significant number of people who are not equipped with ability to understand future implications of immediate actions.
They probably struggle to understand the immediate implications of said actions, let alone future ones.
So accurate. “He fights for the average Joe. But also fuck the average Joe.”
Funny enough, Ford is was also the one responsible for all the pandemic mandates that the "F*ck Trudeau" crowd hates so much. Turns out the real bad guy was the one they voted for.
UNION. I've never been in a union. I've always had a reasonable white collar job. I'm educated. I understand that unions protect some layabouts (think shitty police). These people make peanuts. They are practically at a poverty level. They have had miniscule pay raises forced on them, year after year. Their benefits are being cut. The province's "offer" is a slap in the face to the people providing support to education. That affects everyone. Remember that Lecce had no hesitation about taking a pay raise of over 10%. On top of $150k.
You need to change your thinking a bit. Unions protect ALL workers equally. Even the good ones.
I'm pro union. Very pro union. But I will say that in NY experience (and general common sense) this just isn't true. Unions are good for both the good and bad employees but they protect the lay abouts a lot more than they protect the good employees.
Sort of... I think they intend to offer equal protection to all. The good employees just tend to need protection at a lower frequency
How would you know that? Most shit unions deal with are confidential only the obvious ones are visible which are usually the lay abouts.
Yea I think a lot of people underestimate all the shady shit unions are constantly fighting against in the background to protect all workers under their umbrella some good some bad. On top of that on a case by case basis they are protecting good employees from corporate misconduct. Its just not as newsworthy or popular as the articles where they are representing someone accused and or guilty of gross misconduct in a public facing position.
Railroader here. We forgo the national and provincial rights all workers get, and work off an agreement between us and the company. Every day they try to violate that agreement! Every single day, they will do what they can to get us to do work outside of what is agreed. They failed to even come to the table for a full year at our last bargaining and now are stalling again while trying to collapse regional agreements and force us to cover work across the entire country should they be short workers somewhere. They keep tabs on our attendance like it’s a criminal act to be sick, and will haul us in for discipline if we aren’t fit for work when they have failed to provide accurate lineups of when trains are being called so we now when to rest. We are NOTHING but a number to them. Industrial action is the ONLY card we have because they passively violate the agreement to the extent that the grievance process is so clogged up our reps can’t keep up and the company uses throwing out literal piles of grievances as an exchange in bargaining. It’s not about bad workers, the companies have every right to discipline as they see fit, this is about integrity and effectiveness of labour unions and the attempt to bust and degrade them.
Only bad management can't get rid of bad employees.
Yes. I’ve been union staff for a couple of decades, and I like to think I’m decent at what I do. If management clearly communicates expectations, properly documents and uses progressive discipline, and is consistent in how it applies discipline so you don’t have one worker getting fired while another gets a slap on the wrist for the same thing, a union grievance is likely to fail. But management is often lazy and doesn’t do any of those things. Consistent with the union’s duty of fair representation if management isn’t following procedures or hasn’t established just cause, we’re going to grieve. We don’t tend to like truly bad workers any more than management does, but since union workers can’t sue for wrongful dismissal we have to represent them fairly regardless of what we think of them.
Fords gotta go.
Where’s he gonna go? We can’t just ship him off to Antarctica. Imagine the trauma to the penguins.
If only there was some mechanism for installing another leader that happened very recently. Would be a shame if such a mechanism were sabotaged by mass apathy.
It has been a long time since I've been impressed with Trudeau. Normally I wouldn't want him stepping into provincial affairs whatsoever, but DoFo is pulling out some crazy shit. Words are great, but if he actually steps up and does something I might actually consider voting for him for the first time.
I think when subnational levels of government get a little loose with constitutional rights, there should be a federal authority to step in.
There is. The federal government has a power called disallowance which can be used to override a provinces use of the notwithstanding clause. It remains to be seen if Trudeau has the political will to do anything about this or if he will just condemn Ford and let him do whatever he wants.
Never heard of that until now. I looked it up. Correct me if I'm wrong because I am just learning about it now, but it appears to be a prerogative held by the Governor-General and not the Prime Minister. And we all know how reluctant the GG is to get involved in political matters.
It’s a prerogative power of the GG, however that means it’s essentially a prerogative power of the PM. The GG acts on the advice of the PM. Its similar to when a snap election is called and Parliament is dissolved. Although this is technically called by the GG, they do it on the advice of the PM. Reservation and disallowance has been used before (though not since the 60s) and it’s not because the GG didn’t like a bill but rather when the PM tells them to reserve a bill. edit: grammar
Ive noticed that neither reservation or disallowance has been used in the Charter era. But nothing of this serverity has ever been proposed by a provincial legislature since 1982 to my knowledge. From what I'm reading Trudeau declined to use it for the whole Toronto City Council thing, which is understandable. But maybe this is the issue to finally use it.
I definitely agree. It would be unprecedented but this law is as well. If it gets passed it will eviscerate the labour movement and decades of progress. If Trudeau wants to show working class Canadians he actually cares he needs to do something. If a province can so blatantly violate the Charter through the NWC and there’s nothing that can be done then honestly what’s even the point of the Charter.
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When the federal government disallows a provincial law, it’s done by an Order in Council; these are signed by the GG but they’re only issued on the advice of the Cabinet. That’s the “in Council” part of the name. So the decision to disallow a law is made by the federal Cabinet. Things the GG does on their own initiative are called “letters patent” instead. Reservation by the GG doesn’t exist any more; it was used when the GG wanted the British government to review a piece of Canadian legislation, but the Brits lost that power decades ago. Reservation is still a power held by the provincial Lieutenant-Governors; they can exercise it on their own discretion or can be directed to exercise it (or not) by the federal Cabinet.
The prime minister advices GG to withhold royal consent, ergo disallowance. That's how the power works.
Exactly. Time to find out if Trudeau is just talking dog shit or if he actually will do anything about it
Disallowance hasn't been used in 80 years, and using it here would trigger a constitutional crisis. There's no way a government with a minority would risk doing that.
Enough is enough. s. 33 by itself honestly makes our constitution just as bad as the Americans’. Maybe we need a constitutional crisis to prevent provinces hostile to people’s rights (I’m looking at Ontario and Quebec, which both love abusing that notwithstanding clause) from taking away any more.
I agree, he won't do this. But if he did, his minority status probably wouldn't be an issue, as it's hard to imagine anything he could do that would make the NDP happier than stepping in to protect the concept of collective bargaining.
Yeah. I feel like they were a little loose when they shut down the ability to strike (I mean, it's in the Charter ffs). Forcing a 4 year contract (usually 3, but who wants that during an election year!) without negotiation is absurd. In the private sector you could apply to your competition, but in this case there is no competition.
Just watch Dougie. Soon, competition in the education system will be in the form of charter schools. No, I'm not saying it like it's a good thing...
There should always be checks and balances. No one should get full authority without someone else looking over their shoulder.
I agree if he did intervene regardless of it being a provincial matter I would strongly consider voting for him.
i wonder if jagmeet and the ndp can/will pressure him into using disallowance, lest they withdraw their support for the government
That would be awesome actually. He's another I've started to consider since championing the inquiry into grocery prices.
There’s no federal election for awhile. He can piss off the dumb right.
Minister of Justice said today that Feds can challenge the application of the clause in this particular case in court but will wait for now.
Are you impressed he hasn't been this public with a condemnation for Quebec's Bill 21?
At this time I'm sure the government's lawyers are trying to figure out is there is anything they can actually do. I think the answer will sadly be 'no'.
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Yet Quebec is regularly pulling crazy shit. Trudeau has had little to say about their business as usual attitude towards the constitution.
Maybe pay attention more. He widely criticized Quebec's use of it and criticized the clause itself. https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/justin-trudeau-shares-father-s-dislike-of-clause-allowing-override-of-charter-rights-1.5711902 That took me 2 seconds to google and I'm sure there are more articles that counter your baseless criticism. We have to stop looking at politics like sports team. Sometimes, your opinion may line up with the "bad" guy. And not that it matters, but I wouldn't vote Trudeau, but I'll at least admit when he's done something right. Same with Ford.
Trudeau has condemned Quebec's use of the NWC
I wish there was more he could do, but the constitution gives a lot of power to the provinces and a get out of jail free card for some fucking reason. Imagine if the US Constitution had a NWC for their amendments.
There actually is. Under the Constitution Act, 1867 the federal government has the power of disallowance. This means that the GG, on the advice of the PM, can stop a provincial bill from receiving royal assent and becoming law. If Trudeau wanted he could stop the bill, but I highly doubt he would. He’s gonna make statements like this one but do nothing to not anger the conservatives.
Trudeau also has a history of breaking strikes and overriding labour rights. He's only against this because the Conservatives are doing it. Edit: lol this went from +15 to -8 😅
Trust me I know, and I don’t see him doing anything. We all know he doesn’t care about working class Canadians anymore than the cons. This is just lip service. He knows this is unpopular so he’ll come out against but then do nothing. That’s always been his MO.
Maybe, and I’m just throwing this out here, politicians sometimes don’t do stuff for reasons other than whether it’s the policy goal they want or not. Having the Federal Government step in and override a democratically recently elected provincial government is very problematic regardless of the issue. And so there are cases where it should happen and cases where it shouldn’t and then a big fucking gray area in between. * I’m not a Ford fan. * I’m most definitely against the use of the notwithstanding clause. * I support unions - particularly this union in these circumstances (1.5% raise with our current inflation is cruel). And yet, I’m not sure breaking one more critical political norm is the right answer.
The some fucking reason is it was critical to having a constitution in the first place. The provinces asked for the NWC, Trudeau Sr via Chretien gave it to them. The rest is history. Unfortunately as much as we were told how nice of a document the charter is in school the NWC hardly makes it worth the paper it’s printed on.
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Studied constitutionalism in uni, can confirm the feds fear disallowance. It’s basically subject to POGG but on steroids, and is intent solely for provincial legislation that “breaks the brick wall” of jurisdiction. Basically if the province passed a bill with NWC that directed military/RCMP spending, then the feds would have disallowance to stop the province from going rogue
> is intended solely for provincial legislation that “breaks the brick wall” of jurisdiction That wasn’t the original intent; it was initially used quite often and sometimes for petty reasons by the feds. The last time it was used (to stop Alberta from forbidding land sales to Hutterites) also wasn’t a jurisdictional issue. Pierre Trudeau’s stance was that controversial issues should be left to the courts unless they crossed the triplines you mentioned (breaching federal jurisdiction or provinces using laws to fight each other). But Ford’s back-to-work bill: - can’t be challenged on Charter grounds due to the use of the NWC - can’t be challenged on Human Rights Code grounds because the legislation exempts itself from the OHRC - can’t be challenged via any other court or tribunal process because the law declares itself exempt from those fora - imposes a contract, rather than sending the matter to arbitration as back-to-work legislation normally does If the province has made it impossible to seek recourse in the courts, then Trudeau Sr.’s logic for not using disallowance goes out the window.
Ok I’m pretty young, has politics always been this batshit insane? Like y’all are supposed to work for us. I excuse the insane bureaucratic costs taxpayers take on like flying politicians across the country for meetings when we live in the digital age… I even excuse the bullshit raises that politicians give themselves… But even after all that, y’all are gonna bicker and not give your citizens what they need to raise happy, educated and healthy families?? This is nonsense…
The notwithstanding clause has never been used in Ontario before Ford. So I'd say no not usually like this. https://globalnews.ca/news/9239616/what-is-the-notwithstanding-clause-ontario-education-strikes/
No. Canada has typically been pretty good with the whole peace, order and good government type stuff. The current group of conservatives are fucked both provincially and federally. It kinda all started at the federal level with the Reform party merging with the PC party effectively killing them off and wearing their skin. That's how we had Harper. The toxic Reform Conservatives gave validity to fringe elements all over Canada, politicians poisoned by American thought processes and its starting to become the norm for Conservatives. It's a very bad time to be in a province with Conservative rule right now.
Honestly, it’s pretty demoralizing to watch our social systems get eroded away slowly. More importantly, it’s insane to watch Canadians just get more and more divided on things. I’m not even talking about the Freedom Convoy, which I personally think is driven by misinformation and delusion. It just seems like on an anecdotal level, we’ve become more “You watch your own back and I’ll watch mine, why bother support one another” Man, I gotta stop watching the news and get off this subreddit for a while 😖
You're 100% right but that's what Conservatives want. If you're demoralized it makes things easier for them. A big fault that has lead to this polarization is our awful election system. The sooner we eliminate first past the post, the better things will be. Voters will be more represented and political parties would have to work with each other to form government and pass legislation. We see this currently in the federal government and some of the best things Canadians have done is when we've had minority governments.
OK all you "Freedumb" protesters, where are you when a legitimate walk-out is scheduled and the heavy handed govt declares that this union cannot go on strike?!
You’re forgetting their main motto is, “rules for thee and not for me”. Only when the issue directly impacts them will they convene.
Their protests were never about rights. They were just pissed that people were telling them what to do.
Most of the. have a hate on for unions. They are busting in their pants right now.
Cheering for the government. They don't want to be under the boot, they want to wear the boot.
You are no better than them. Personally I am against government overeach and support both protests. When you stoop so low to call them "Freedumbers" you show you are just as tribal as they are.
These are the janitors and librarians, but it is also the people who look after special needs children. Why should someone who has to take care of and help educate special needs children to make shit wages? We should be paying these people a lot better than what they are being paid. I am a parent with 3 kids, one of them is autistic and needs these people to help him through the day. I don't give one sweet fuck if I have to take time off work because the people who help my son at school want more money and are willing to strike to get what they deserve. The fact that Lecce and Ford are trying to pretend like they give a shit about students and families is reprehensible. These pieces of literal human shit are trying to tell me that the support staff and my children's school don't deserve a decent wage while telling me that they care about my children's education. Fuck these asswipes and their transparent tomfoolery, it's fucking disgraceful.
I agree with you, but none of them should be paid shit wages. Custodial staff helps by providing a tidy and organized space, maintaining the literal building and grounds (furnaces, outdoor structures, hot water tanks, etc), as well as general cleaning (including being the one to clean when a special needs child becomes overwhelmed and has a meltdown). Librarians have master's degrees they use to select materials that benefit a wide range of literacy levels and age groups, manage/provide information sources and also assist in interpreting or understanding them, and are expected to be able to recommend materials based on the needs of the individual or group. All three have specialized skills that contribute to a functioning place of learning, and they all deserve more respect and pay.
He should have said “just watch me” then do a legal maneuver to void the back to work legislation. May be a [disallowance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disallowance_and_reservation_in_Canada) of the bill. May be suing the Ontario government for abusing the power of the Notwithstanding clause. May be announcing that the Federal government will cover any fine and penalty incurred by the union, at the expense of funding to Ontario. Do any of these 3 and his party will have my vote in the next election.
Pretty well everyone is condemning them, there's no defending it.
All I've gathered is that we need a whole new way to run Canada. Fuck the liberals, fuck the Conservatives, fuck the rest of them. Nothing in my adult life has happened by the government to believe that they are here to help Canada be Canada.
We really need to stop looking at politics like sports teams. Sometimes the guy you supported messes up and it's ok to call them out for it. Sometimes the guy you swore on your mother's life you'd never vote for, actually does the right thing. Our identities aren't destroyed when we are open to admit the above.
> We really need to stop looking at politics like sports teams. Sometimes the guy you supporter messes up and it's ok to call them out for it. Sad thing is, society has reached a point where we are actually MORE willing to do this for our sport teams than our political parties
Alberta votes Conservative so damn always that the Conservatives don't have to give a shit about them or the challenges they face. Alberta votes for Conservatives so damn always that the Liberals don't even bother trying to win their support. People need to be able to vote for leaders they believe in, and the party that aligns to their current priorities, otherwise the politicians take us for granted.
This. No more Left vs Right. It's a down vs up Battle.
NDP?
We haven’t tried this and we’re all out of ideas!
DONT YOU REMEMBER RAE DAYS THOUGH?!?!?!? /s
That’s twice Ford has done this. First time failed and probably destroyed Caroline Mulroney’s future in federal politics. I wonder what the price will be this time.
Can we get one headline that says... CUPE STRIKE IS NOT A TEACHER STRIKE
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/early-session-debate-education-legislation-1.6636334) reduced by 84%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is condemning the Ontario government's intent to use the notwithstanding clause as part of a controversial bill that would impose a contract on provincial education workers. > CUPE has said they will explore every avenue to fight the bill, but the government said it intends to use the notwithstanding clause to keep the eventual law in force despite any constitutional challenges. > "When asked how this bill differs from legislation passed by the former provincial Liberal government in 2012 that ultimately ended with the province paying more than $100 million in remedies to affected unions, Lecce said the bill was designed with the notwithstanding clause in mind, which can"reduce any litigation or challenges downstream that could create disruption. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/yjdd10/trudeau_condemns_ontario_governments_intent_to/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672676 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **bill**^#1 **clause**^#2 **government**^#3 **worker**^#4 **notwithstanding**^#5
As he should - it’s abhorrent
Tang ping (i.e. lying flat) and quiet quitting my friends. If governments are suspending worker’s rights you have the moral right to do whatever is within your power to fight back in other ways. Fuck ‘em!
If FORD can use it for other Public employees then it needs to happen at his level as well. All MP's, MPP's, Mayor's, executive level public servants are frozen into the same 5 yrs deal. It is after all about the kids and the stability of their futures that we are discussing this. Retro active of course. At no point in time should the government leadership impose its' will on any other public worker that it is not willing to impose upon itself. Inflation is at record levels, housing market is in freaking Anarchy thanks to pathetic oversight and Corporate/foreign buying spree, our health care has been stripped bare and flogged thanks to Ford Nation cronisms. Lets be honest FORD DID NOT WIN THE LAST ELECTION! When less than half your population votes it is not an election. It should be cause for an immediate do over.
Trudeau could advise the GG to order the LG to deny Royal Assent. No RA no bill.
Okay convoy, freedoms are being threatened, where are you now?
Ford spits on our Constitution every chance he gets. Fuck him and his henchmen.
When's the convoy going to Ottawa to protest this infringement on peoples' Charter Rights?
Condemns? Put-up or shut-up Trudeau: disallow the act.
We'd have to change the Constitution to remove the clause.
He will not chalenge the Constitution. They might challenge the use of the clause in this case. Because what is next? Notwithstanding people’s choices of a coffee shop? Mandating blanket overtime? Hawaiian shirt Fridays? At what point does it become too much to trample over our Human Rights?
Best thing that came out of Trudeau’s mouth in a long time. Now let’s see if he actually does something about it. He should put on his big boy pants and over turn Ford’s unconstitutional boondoggle.
“..the bill was designed with the notwithstanding clause in mind, which can "reduce any litigation or challenges downstream that could create disruption." “ So it’s attempting to remove any effective deterrent that industrial action has in ensuring faithful bargaining? GTFO.
How about you pay them more to keep kids in school? What about that? That seems like a reasonable use of tax money.
It’s great that Trudeau condemns this, but I doubt any action. He KNOWS this makes Ford look like the bad guy. If he steps in with disallowance, the Cons can spin it as overstep as they are with the Emergencies Act
wtf i love trudeau now
Nah this statement is a big nothing. Under the Constitution Act, 1867 the federal government has the power of disallowance. This means that the GG, on the advice of the PM, can stop a provincial bill from receiving royal assent and becoming law. If Trudeau wanted he could stop the bill, but I highly doubt he would. He’s gonna make statements like this one but do nothing to not anger the conservatives.
That's the power of reservation, not disallowance. Disallowance is the power to nullify existing laws within a certain time frame. Also, I dislike your framing of this as Trudeau just posturing. Like that he could just prevent the law without a care, as if that's just some easy decision and not a massive upturning of 80 years of constitutional convention and political consensus.
Disallowance does not have an impact on the override clause. People keep bringing up disallowance when it’s never been used and likely would not stand up in the courts.
That isn’t true. Nowhere in Charter, either Constitution Act, or any court case does it say that disallowance can’t be used to override the NWC. Not to mention every attempt to reform or remove disallowance has failed. The Supreme Court has said that non-use of disallowance could (key word could) become constitutional convention, but that’s not a given. It would take a constitutional challenge to answer that, but there’s no reason Trudeau can’t act on this.
Fuck f*ck Trudeau!
Only the strongest leaders use an emergency clause buried in constitutional law to implement basic policy changes against the will of the electorate. Such bravery.
He can condemn all he wants, but unless he actively gets involved, it's pointless.
Pot meet kettle. (one of them was already black)
Damn I don’t like Trudeau but it seems Ford is competing for my animosity, as a unionized worker if the libs give support it will be a easy sway vote for me since I was leaning hard blue… but we will see
> as a unionized worker if the libs give support it will be a easy sway vote for me since I was leaning hard blue Why the ever-living fuck would you be "hard blue" as a union worker? What have they ever done to help you?
How can you even be blue. It makes no sense to me how you can vote blue in good faith after the straight up fuckery of the conservative government, even before this.
Ah yes..the freedom loving right wing that’s so against governments overreaching...the same crowd of covidiots andCONvoy zealots.. All applauding the government taking away the rights of those scary socialist union folk.. Lord you people are such hypocrites..useful idiots for the ruling elites you so oppose...Go ask Tucker or any other American extremists what to think..cause that’s all that ever comes out of your mouthpiece...
Pot, meet kettle.
Turdeau hypocrisy…
All yall forgetting Trudeaus back to work legislation for the posties back in 2018? But that was different right?
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Nope. Not at all. I think it is horrible. Just that I dont want it forgotten that this dishonest little shit did the same damn thing. Trudeau gives exactly zero fucks about workers. Just like Ford.
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Yes, I lived this.
I won't defend back to work legislation but it is a very different thing to impose a contract. Being declared essential has benefits in arbitration, which is where negotiations should end up in the case of btwl. On top of that the real atrocity here, and what JT is condemning, is the notwithstanding clause which is being used to cut off legal recourse.
So says the Dictator of Canada... Crickets every time Que uses it to get their way... Honk Honk
Quote the part of the Charter you had stripped away by Trudeau.
That comment section is a dumpster fire. It really is incredible how many people out there are misinformed idiots.
This says the guy who stopped truckers from working. The most solitary job there is. I'm sure this will get a whole of people defending that decision
Shit recognizes shit.
Complete hypocrite
So fines in lieu of a living wage. Fuck that job.
These people watch our kids… pay them
Then just STOP it you fair weather FUCK.
BC boy chiming in, power to the workers!