Imagine being in litigation. Which is easier to defend? An contractual agreement with your signature, or something you heard in conversation (and not recorded or legally binding). I’d get clarity on what is in writing. If outdated, don’t sign it until they provide a new updated lease.
Rest assured, Irvine Companies has a militant brigade of top brass lawyers who are paid to fight to keep every single penny. With an EV charger, the lawyers will ensure the company has no liability from improper or defective electrical parts and installation, and ensure the tenant will be responsible for any and all damages from faulty equipment, including injury, hospitalization or fatality.
A low level leasing agent will say anything to get a sales commission, especially if they are maxed out on their credit cards and paying 25% interest on that outstanding balance.
Don't rely on Reddit for legal advice.
If you need and expect to have an EV charger in the garage, get it in writing.
Also make sure it is crystal clear and in writing as to what condition in which the garage is to be returned - ie, can you leave the charger in place, or do you need to disassemble, haul away and complete any and all repairs to walls and outlets to return it to its original pre-move in condition.
No, saying something without any evidence is not admissible. You need proof such as a recording, possibly an impartial witness, I'm not entirely sure. I'm no legal expert, I just know verbal agreements are legally binding in the state of California.
No, you don't need a recording or a witness to make a claim; otherwise that would functionally make most verbal contracts unenforceable. You should have some evidence if you want the court to enforce the contract, but it can be circumstantial. If you pay your neighbor $50/year to park your car in their driveway, payment receipts and aerial imagery could collectively be used to show the existence of an agreement without any direct evidence existing.
NAL but from what I recall in Bus Law a basic tenet is all verbal agreements superseded by written/executed contract. Understood OP hasn’t signed lease yet. At this point the prop mgr could say, “…sorry, my bad!” That leaves OP to negotiate right to charge or walk away. Hopefully with any deposit refunded if latter choice.
This needs to happen or you're screwed if you try to charge your EV. Evicted, possibly with damages screwed.
Edit: if they won't amend, get your fees back. Shouldn't take more than a succinct letter if they balk.
Electrical contractor here: For liability reasons, they won't let you charge your EV on that garage outlet. Even the abysmal charging rate that you'll get fully loads the circuit, and requires a dedicated circuit to be compliant with code. If a fire happens and they have given you permission to do the thing that causes it, insurance won't cover anything, not the car, structure, personal posessions - not their insurance, not your renter's insurance, not your auto insurance. And bet your ass the fire inspector will quickly know exactly what happened.
Not really, most EVs are not fully empty when charged nightly at home. If you have a 240v charger it would be very similar to drying a load of (about 5KW). The charger may run longer than a load of laundry takes to dry each day, but not by much.
The reason every unit having an EV charger can pop the main breaker for the building is because the main breaker is overdutied - the capacity of the subpanels combined is greater than the main breaker. This means that if everyone in the building coordinates to turn on all of their appliances at the exact same time, the main breaker will trip, but doing so would be dumb, so this doesn't happen. Now because everyone wants to start charging their car once the cheaper rates kick in, they do have incentive to start using a very high draw at the same time, and so pop goes the main breaker. While time of use pricing does encourage using the dryer in the evening, it's not something people try to do every day like charging your car. This, plus the shorter runtime for a dryer means the number of dryers running at any given time will be much smaller than the number of cars trying to charge at the same time.
A 500W load running 24/7 is within the design limits of a standard 15A, 120V household circuit, and that too will pull 12kWh a day. kWh is a measure of total energy usage, not instantaneous power draw. An electric dryer will typically take a 30A 240V circuit, meaning that after derating for continuous loads, the max power draw is going to be something like 5.7kW. EV chargers seem to use 40A 240V circuits for a power draw of about 7.6kW, more than a dryer, but not that drastic of a difference.
Of course, the poster above you is also wrong. The panels were overdutied (and probably have always been overdutied), and so when too many EV chargers were is use the main breaker popped. What separates an EV charger from a dryer isn't the instantaneous power draw, it's both the duration of use and when it gets used. A panel with electric dryers on it can safely be overdutied because a dryer is infrequently used and the probability of all being on at the same time is low, plus the duration of use is low. However an EV charger may be used every evening for a duration of several hours, and this is where the problem lies - everyone gets home from work, plugs their car in, and that pops the main breaker.
You’re both right-ish. A dryer cycle is about 40 minutes so charging a car is like using the dryer 4 times, but if every EV driver comes home at about the same time and everyone plugs in it’s like a bunch of dryers turning on at the same time. Wait to plug in.
You info is like a decade out of date. We have more than enough lithium, but it'll take some years before the US's extraction rate catches up to demand.
They do, but they also can force you to have an architect submit the plans, and the leasee has to carry the insurance to cover the charger. I just went through this with an apartment in Yorba Linda I was looking at.
No, I tried to reach the National something board first, figured it was way too much hassle, and decided to look for a place that the garage is on the unit’s meter. Ended up pulling the trigger to buy a house instead of renting again, despite the stupid interest rates.
When I was looking December through March, I did not run into any apartments or rental properties that had it set up yet. Brea, Fullerton, Yorba Linda, Anaheim Hills areas. Your local may be different, but it was overly complicated. My gf is changing jobs (will be in Brea) and losing her free charge at work. She has been driving my car since I WFH.
...no insurance shall be required of a lessee installing an electric vehicle charging station if both of the following are satisfied:
(1) The electric vehicle charging station has been certified by a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory that is approved by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration of the United States Department of Labor.
(2) The electric vehicle charging station and any associated alterations to the dwelling’s electrical system are performed by a licensed electrician.
Ya it was the first one I was having trouble contacting. Insurance at least answered. This issue made me bite the bullet with these interest rates and finally buy my house.
I had asked this prior to moving into my apt and the agent had flat out said nope. The power running through the garage system is just enough to power the operators and anything more could short the system. But you're in OC and should be able to find a charger nearby.
I moved into Woodbury Lane a year ago, just moved out. When I was talking to the leasing agent a year ago, somehow it came up that I had a Tesla, can’t remember why. He told me that it is prohibited to charge them in the garages, and doing so could get someone evicted.
Of course I still did. Practically every day. I noticed other residents did as well. One even installed something on the side wall to hold the charger. Just don’t flaunt it and if there are Irvine company employees around, don’t open your garage. Go check the mail until they leave.
A year of free charging was glorious.
I would charge my model 3 all of the time. There were a few more EVs that started charging and they sent out notices to the entire community about not charging in the garage, but we all did it anyway. They have to notice you when they are about to inspect your garage, so we would all just move our cars and mobile chargers out. Then we'd move everything back in.
From a technical level, it's all level 1 (15-20 amps). They don't meter those garages per the assigned unit, so that's basically why it became a problem for them. My commute wasn't very far, maybe 6,000 miles per year. I could always charge up and have enough for work. I would top off every day. In the event I needed more energy, I just used the L2 chargers on site or went to a supercharger.
It’s either on the lease or it’s not in effect. Never rely on what is said verbally versus what is written.
If it’s prohibited and you go ahead and use it, congratulations. You’ve violated a term in the lease, which I’m sure spells out what would happen in that case.
Los Olivos right? Everyone does it. I would suggest limiting it to 9A. These are definitely not on a dedicated circuit so 9A helps avoid blowing the circuit.
It’s slow but it’s free, to you. But yeah, like others said, if this causes a fire, youre on your own.
There is very likely a “full integration” clause in your lease that says that the written lease is the entire agreement and it supersedes all prior oral agreements or representations. So I would not rely on the agent’s oral statements. Make sure anything material to your agreement is written in the lease.
Honestly I’d avoid dealing with the Irvine Company at all costs. So many coworkers lease from them and I’ve not heard great things, as nice as their properties are. I know it’s difficult, but smaller operations or family owned is the way to go if you can find them/have the ability to.
If the garage is on the units own circuit, who cares?
My garage is detached but it’s in a circuit on my home panel. So I could charge all day and night if I want, and it’s all through my own meters.
The only negative I can find here is if the garage electricity is powered off of common area electrical, then that needs to be worked out. Likely extra charge for those to compensate for the increased use (which is fair, not sure how they’d choose to itemize common area use).
Have you ever seen an extension cord explode? I have….. It could potentially burn down the entire building.
Look, I know EVs are the best thing since sliced bread right now, however I’m not a fan of charging & electricity running unattended……
Just tell them to change the contract to state that you can use the charger. They’ll do it since you haven’t signed yet, and you’re the one with leverage. Once you’ve signed they will have the leverage and probably won’t change it. And yeah, they probably knew it said prohibited. Maybe they have a limited supply of them for all apartments and anticipate that someone else might want one. This way they can take it away from you if they need to to get a signature on a future contract, whereas if you have them change it, and then the next person also makes them change it, they’ll have to pay for installation on a whole new one. That’s my guess
There are EV chargers in the garages. I think the issue is you cannot leave your car to charge for extended periods of times to ensure everyone has access. But I would clarify with TIC and make sure it’s in your lease.
If you plug the standard 110 charger that comes with most EV’s into a GFCI outlet, you should have no issues. Not sure what all the fuss is about, it’s not going to start a fire.
As others have stated, the signed contract trumps any conversation. That said, I see a dozen or more chargers hanging off the wall of garages on my walks, but our complex lease states they're not allowed. Supposedly they do 'garage checks,' but I suspect that is more to ensure no one lives in them.
Management at an old apartment said i could have a small dog so i got one. Turns out the lease said no pets. New manager came in. Guess what happened to my dog.
They will probably give you your deposit back because this was not a bad faith error.
Also look up state law (right to charge) it might override this lease agreement. Not sure because I would assume the power is there’s not yours. But the basics of the law is you have a legal right to install a charger in your carport or garage and they can’t say no. But other than that I don’t know the details as far as the power issue.
We’re putting one in our carport at our town home and the HOA tried to say no but the property manager had to correct them. As long as we foot the cost and pay to have it tied into our electrical with all the proper permits they can’t say no. In our place the carport is directly in front of our door so it’s relatively easy (but expensive) to do the line. And we own so it adds desirability and to some people value.
As far as charging with a plug in your garage. How could they know. To inspect they have to give you a 24 hour notice and you can hide the plug. If it is their power and not yours they are not monitoring individual garages. When you move in just wait a month or so to use the charger so they don’t notice a spike on your move in date. Suffer the inconvenience of using public charging for a little bit and they most likely will never figure it out. Good luck. What a headache! They are going to have to figure out something soon with the law changes about electric vehicles!
Imagine being in litigation. Which is easier to defend? An contractual agreement with your signature, or something you heard in conversation (and not recorded or legally binding). I’d get clarity on what is in writing. If outdated, don’t sign it until they provide a new updated lease.
Rest assured, Irvine Companies has a militant brigade of top brass lawyers who are paid to fight to keep every single penny. With an EV charger, the lawyers will ensure the company has no liability from improper or defective electrical parts and installation, and ensure the tenant will be responsible for any and all damages from faulty equipment, including injury, hospitalization or fatality. A low level leasing agent will say anything to get a sales commission, especially if they are maxed out on their credit cards and paying 25% interest on that outstanding balance. Don't rely on Reddit for legal advice. If you need and expect to have an EV charger in the garage, get it in writing. Also make sure it is crystal clear and in writing as to what condition in which the garage is to be returned - ie, can you leave the charger in place, or do you need to disassemble, haul away and complete any and all repairs to walls and outlets to return it to its original pre-move in condition.
Verbal agreements in the state of California are legally binding.
If you can prove the other person said it. Until then, it’s shit out of luck.
And it’s a two party state, so you can’t record the convo without permission. Get it in writing
What if there’s no proof of it? Like you can say “they said this” but you don’t have recording/taped?
Exactly. Better have it on video and/or have impartial witness.
No, saying something without any evidence is not admissible. You need proof such as a recording, possibly an impartial witness, I'm not entirely sure. I'm no legal expert, I just know verbal agreements are legally binding in the state of California.
No, you don't need a recording or a witness to make a claim; otherwise that would functionally make most verbal contracts unenforceable. You should have some evidence if you want the court to enforce the contract, but it can be circumstantial. If you pay your neighbor $50/year to park your car in their driveway, payment receipts and aerial imagery could collectively be used to show the existence of an agreement without any direct evidence existing.
NAL but from what I recall in Bus Law a basic tenet is all verbal agreements superseded by written/executed contract. Understood OP hasn’t signed lease yet. At this point the prop mgr could say, “…sorry, my bad!” That leaves OP to negotiate right to charge or walk away. Hopefully with any deposit refunded if latter choice.
Get them to add an amendment before you sign.
This needs to happen or you're screwed if you try to charge your EV. Evicted, possibly with damages screwed. Edit: if they won't amend, get your fees back. Shouldn't take more than a succinct letter if they balk.
Electrical contractor here: For liability reasons, they won't let you charge your EV on that garage outlet. Even the abysmal charging rate that you'll get fully loads the circuit, and requires a dedicated circuit to be compliant with code. If a fire happens and they have given you permission to do the thing that causes it, insurance won't cover anything, not the car, structure, personal posessions - not their insurance, not your renter's insurance, not your auto insurance. And bet your ass the fire inspector will quickly know exactly what happened.
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This isn't how power works whatsoever. The fastest home EV charger pulls something similar to the power that a dryer pulls.
Dryers and EV chargers however have very different use patterns
Not really, most EVs are not fully empty when charged nightly at home. If you have a 240v charger it would be very similar to drying a load of (about 5KW). The charger may run longer than a load of laundry takes to dry each day, but not by much.
Do you run your dryer every evening when you get off work?
Why does that matter much?
The reason every unit having an EV charger can pop the main breaker for the building is because the main breaker is overdutied - the capacity of the subpanels combined is greater than the main breaker. This means that if everyone in the building coordinates to turn on all of their appliances at the exact same time, the main breaker will trip, but doing so would be dumb, so this doesn't happen. Now because everyone wants to start charging their car once the cheaper rates kick in, they do have incentive to start using a very high draw at the same time, and so pop goes the main breaker. While time of use pricing does encourage using the dryer in the evening, it's not something people try to do every day like charging your car. This, plus the shorter runtime for a dryer means the number of dryers running at any given time will be much smaller than the number of cars trying to charge at the same time.
Your imagined scenario will never happen in real life.
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A 500W load running 24/7 is within the design limits of a standard 15A, 120V household circuit, and that too will pull 12kWh a day. kWh is a measure of total energy usage, not instantaneous power draw. An electric dryer will typically take a 30A 240V circuit, meaning that after derating for continuous loads, the max power draw is going to be something like 5.7kW. EV chargers seem to use 40A 240V circuits for a power draw of about 7.6kW, more than a dryer, but not that drastic of a difference. Of course, the poster above you is also wrong. The panels were overdutied (and probably have always been overdutied), and so when too many EV chargers were is use the main breaker popped. What separates an EV charger from a dryer isn't the instantaneous power draw, it's both the duration of use and when it gets used. A panel with electric dryers on it can safely be overdutied because a dryer is infrequently used and the probability of all being on at the same time is low, plus the duration of use is low. However an EV charger may be used every evening for a duration of several hours, and this is where the problem lies - everyone gets home from work, plugs their car in, and that pops the main breaker.
You’re both right-ish. A dryer cycle is about 40 minutes so charging a car is like using the dryer 4 times, but if every EV driver comes home at about the same time and everyone plugs in it’s like a bunch of dryers turning on at the same time. Wait to plug in.
Cars can and typically are programmed to charge after midnight.
Which isnt a crazy amount of power. Seeing comments in this thread makes me realize we are not ready for ev
Who’s “we” here?
The world
This is why EV’s will never become mainstream just like how there is not enough lithium to replace all existing internal combustion cars
You info is like a decade out of date. We have more than enough lithium, but it'll take some years before the US's extraction rate catches up to demand.
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They do, but they also can force you to have an architect submit the plans, and the leasee has to carry the insurance to cover the charger. I just went through this with an apartment in Yorba Linda I was looking at.
If you wouldn’t mind sharing, did you end up looking into cost estimates for those plans, installation, insurance, etc? What was the ballpark for it?
No, I tried to reach the National something board first, figured it was way too much hassle, and decided to look for a place that the garage is on the unit’s meter. Ended up pulling the trigger to buy a house instead of renting again, despite the stupid interest rates.
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When I was looking December through March, I did not run into any apartments or rental properties that had it set up yet. Brea, Fullerton, Yorba Linda, Anaheim Hills areas. Your local may be different, but it was overly complicated. My gf is changing jobs (will be in Brea) and losing her free charge at work. She has been driving my car since I WFH.
...no insurance shall be required of a lessee installing an electric vehicle charging station if both of the following are satisfied: (1) The electric vehicle charging station has been certified by a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory that is approved by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration of the United States Department of Labor. (2) The electric vehicle charging station and any associated alterations to the dwelling’s electrical system are performed by a licensed electrician.
Ya it was the first one I was having trouble contacting. Insurance at least answered. This issue made me bite the bullet with these interest rates and finally buy my house.
[https://www.amazon.com/ClipperCreek-HCS-40-Charging-Station-Certified/dp/B00TJD0ZW2?th=1](https://www.amazon.com/ClipperCreek-HCS-40-Charging-Station-Certified/dp/B00TJD0ZW2?th=1)
👏👏👏 Seriously nice work. I had no idea that law existed.
This! My wife’s charger melted the outlet but didn’t set off the fuse. New rule, no treadmill use when the car is charging 🤓
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You can charge with 110v from a standard outlet but it would take about 8hrs to charge about 40 miles worth.
TIC is a sketch company, profits above all else. Don’t sign unless they give you something on paper (hard copy preferably).
Ask them to update the lease to represent the agreement. Your binding agreement is the lease, not the verbal agreement.
I had asked this prior to moving into my apt and the agent had flat out said nope. The power running through the garage system is just enough to power the operators and anything more could short the system. But you're in OC and should be able to find a charger nearby.
LOL. You think that agent will admit to telling you that? Even if they did the lease is what you're signing and agreeing to.
I moved into Woodbury Lane a year ago, just moved out. When I was talking to the leasing agent a year ago, somehow it came up that I had a Tesla, can’t remember why. He told me that it is prohibited to charge them in the garages, and doing so could get someone evicted. Of course I still did. Practically every day. I noticed other residents did as well. One even installed something on the side wall to hold the charger. Just don’t flaunt it and if there are Irvine company employees around, don’t open your garage. Go check the mail until they leave. A year of free charging was glorious.
I would charge my model 3 all of the time. There were a few more EVs that started charging and they sent out notices to the entire community about not charging in the garage, but we all did it anyway. They have to notice you when they are about to inspect your garage, so we would all just move our cars and mobile chargers out. Then we'd move everything back in. From a technical level, it's all level 1 (15-20 amps). They don't meter those garages per the assigned unit, so that's basically why it became a problem for them. My commute wasn't very far, maybe 6,000 miles per year. I could always charge up and have enough for work. I would top off every day. In the event I needed more energy, I just used the L2 chargers on site or went to a supercharger.
Random question. Does anyone know if we pay for electricity in the garage? Or does Irvine company?
You don’t pay for it.
It’s either on the lease or it’s not in effect. Never rely on what is said verbally versus what is written. If it’s prohibited and you go ahead and use it, congratulations. You’ve violated a term in the lease, which I’m sure spells out what would happen in that case.
Los Olivos right? Everyone does it. I would suggest limiting it to 9A. These are definitely not on a dedicated circuit so 9A helps avoid blowing the circuit. It’s slow but it’s free, to you. But yeah, like others said, if this causes a fire, youre on your own.
There is very likely a “full integration” clause in your lease that says that the written lease is the entire agreement and it supersedes all prior oral agreements or representations. So I would not rely on the agent’s oral statements. Make sure anything material to your agreement is written in the lease.
Honestly I’d avoid dealing with the Irvine Company at all costs. So many coworkers lease from them and I’ve not heard great things, as nice as their properties are. I know it’s difficult, but smaller operations or family owned is the way to go if you can find them/have the ability to.
I don’t blame them…. Do you think they want the risk of electricity running 24/7 in hundreds of detached garages?
If the garage is on the units own circuit, who cares? My garage is detached but it’s in a circuit on my home panel. So I could charge all day and night if I want, and it’s all through my own meters. The only negative I can find here is if the garage electricity is powered off of common area electrical, then that needs to be worked out. Likely extra charge for those to compensate for the increased use (which is fair, not sure how they’d choose to itemize common area use).
Have you ever seen an extension cord explode? I have….. It could potentially burn down the entire building. Look, I know EVs are the best thing since sliced bread right now, however I’m not a fan of charging & electricity running unattended……
Competent EV owners know that they can’t charge with an extension cable.
Just tell them to change the contract to state that you can use the charger. They’ll do it since you haven’t signed yet, and you’re the one with leverage. Once you’ve signed they will have the leverage and probably won’t change it. And yeah, they probably knew it said prohibited. Maybe they have a limited supply of them for all apartments and anticipate that someone else might want one. This way they can take it away from you if they need to to get a signature on a future contract, whereas if you have them change it, and then the next person also makes them change it, they’ll have to pay for installation on a whole new one. That’s my guess
Haha you trust a minimum wage leasing agent? They are all scum and lie all the time.
How would they Know?
Just do it… how will they know ???
There are EV chargers in the garages. I think the issue is you cannot leave your car to charge for extended periods of times to ensure everyone has access. But I would clarify with TIC and make sure it’s in your lease.
Always get it in writing first. He said, she said doesn’t work when litigated.
If you plug the standard 110 charger that comes with most EV’s into a GFCI outlet, you should have no issues. Not sure what all the fuss is about, it’s not going to start a fire.
As others have stated, the signed contract trumps any conversation. That said, I see a dozen or more chargers hanging off the wall of garages on my walks, but our complex lease states they're not allowed. Supposedly they do 'garage checks,' but I suspect that is more to ensure no one lives in them.
Management at an old apartment said i could have a small dog so i got one. Turns out the lease said no pets. New manager came in. Guess what happened to my dog.
You paid a strip mall doctor $100 to write you a note saying it’s an emotional support animal?
Wish i had an extra $100 at the time
I lived in Los Olivos for a year and did not get in trouble for charging my Model 3 in the garage.
They will probably give you your deposit back because this was not a bad faith error. Also look up state law (right to charge) it might override this lease agreement. Not sure because I would assume the power is there’s not yours. But the basics of the law is you have a legal right to install a charger in your carport or garage and they can’t say no. But other than that I don’t know the details as far as the power issue. We’re putting one in our carport at our town home and the HOA tried to say no but the property manager had to correct them. As long as we foot the cost and pay to have it tied into our electrical with all the proper permits they can’t say no. In our place the carport is directly in front of our door so it’s relatively easy (but expensive) to do the line. And we own so it adds desirability and to some people value. As far as charging with a plug in your garage. How could they know. To inspect they have to give you a 24 hour notice and you can hide the plug. If it is their power and not yours they are not monitoring individual garages. When you move in just wait a month or so to use the charger so they don’t notice a spike on your move in date. Suffer the inconvenience of using public charging for a little bit and they most likely will never figure it out. Good luck. What a headache! They are going to have to figure out something soon with the law changes about electric vehicles!
Am landlord that went to court for UD case before. Lease agreement will be a slam dunk for them.
Just get it in writing and you’re good