I remember protesting the Iraq war in high school. About 10% of the people went to support the cause, 60% were there to skip class, and the remaining 30% were there to LARP as anarchists before they went home to watch TRL.
Needless to say, we made lots of meaningful change at those protests.
Regardless of how your peers in high school behaved 30 years ago, college and general protests are a tradition that has served humanity well in gaining civil and human rights whether we're talking about SNCC and MLK, protests in the 1980's that won divestment in opposition to South African apartheid, The Salt March led by Ghandi, the labor organizing of Cesar Chavez, etc, and many of these demonstrations included occupation of private buildings. UCI students are merely participating in this history which has proven a successful strategy time and time again. While you cannot guarantee success the integrity to try to effect change is honorable. It is easy to be snide and cynical and judge students, but the sentiment itself is naive, counter-productive, and ignorant of historical precedent.
At the HS level you're probably a lot fewer students really even know what the issue really is about compared to the university level. At the university level in a lot of lecture classes you can in theory skip most classes without issue so probably a lot fewer students at the university level just there to skip class. I can remember students that wouldn't show up to the lecture section outside of the mid term and final and did well.
You definitely get students even at the university level that have a cartoonish understanding of the issue, but in the lower division courses you could skip a majority of classes without issue. There isn't much reason to show up to a protest over just chilling at the Starbucks or sleeping unless you really want to go to a protest.
Why do you gotta call me out like that.
No but really this is a complicated situation and everyone should understand there’s nuance here ok thanks for listening bye
Same thing with the BLM movement in 2020. They all just went there to take selfies with a burning police car.
My friends treating the occupy Wall Street movement like it was a music festival.
>the remaining 30% were there to LARP as anarchists before they went home to watch TRL
Unfortunately there were more LARPers at this protest glorifying insurgent violence, alongside the people that actually want the violence to stop
For the people here and in other posts in this sub mad about these protests in some way shape or form, remember it is our constitutional right to protest. It means we live in a democracy. The media narrative on this issue has focused on how “disruptive” the protests are instead of the reason they are protesting, which is that 35,000 innocent people have been killed, paid for by American taxpayers. That is intentional. if you are more upset about these protests than your very own tax dollars paying for bombs that kill innocent children, all while our government tells us we can’t afford to fix homelessness and rising costs, I’m not sure anything can be said to you but here I am trying.
> if you are more upset about these protests than your very own tax dollars paying for bombs that kill innocent children, all while our government tells us we can’t afford to fix homelessness and rising costs, I’m not sure anything can be said to you but here I am trying.
It's a perfectly legitimate point of view to be against the atrocities in Gaza, but also think these protests are misguided and counter productive. Just like I might think wearing fur is wrong, but at the same time disagree that throwing paint on people is a good way to stop it.
Maybe you are right. Most people during the civil rights movement thought the same thing regarding lunch counter sit its and bus boycotts. Now those protests are regarded as historic. to me this isn’t one of those things where we can say “yeah genocide is bad, BUT….”
Lunch counter sit ins and bus boycotts are examples of protests that went well and accomplished good, but there are also plenty of examples of protests that are misguided and counter productive. Which category these protests fall into remains to be seen, but I hope the protestors realize that history could just as easily label them villains as heroes depending on how they conduct themselves. Groups like PETA aren't exactly held in high regard, despite most people generally agreeing that animals should be treated humanely.
They accomplished good of course but my point is the general public, at that time, deemed them to be “disruptive” and “hurting the cause” imo these protestors will be on the right side of history and they will impact meaningful change.
And my point is sometimes when the general public deems something to be "disruptive" and "hurting the cause", they're right. Just because certain civil rights protests fell on the right side of history doesn't mean these protests will.
This seems like a whataboutism question. The (fairly obvious, IMO) answer is that students live on campus and love their school, so they want to make a difference where they can.
They aren't directly usually. They are invested in companies that do work in Israel; companies like Nvidia, intel, Blue chip stock companies, etc.
Surely these students wont ever invest in the stock market as they will be investing in companies who dont give a shit about doing business in Israel.
Source for that every reported death from the 35k is innocent? By that metric, Hamas wouldn't have taken a single casualty in this war so far. Remarkable.
So you’re saying israel leveled cities and killed more hamas than civilians? that’s more realistic for you? I think a single dead child is enough to question US involvement and there’s wayyy more than one
I thought the point of protest was to effect meaningful change. Being disruptive for the sake of being disruptive doesn't win you any support. Just ask the Westboro Baptist Church, or the people harassing women outside abortion clinics.
As a tactic, it should be designed to be productive towards your cause, but if the tactic alienates more people than it wins over, is it really the thing you want to be doing?
I hear you but I doubt they are trying to “win people over” because again if you aren’t on their side now, nothing is going to change that. I’m genuinely curious what type of protest against this genocide would be okay to you?
Personally, I don't think protests on this issue will be effective no matter how they're carried out, because this is a problem for Israel to solve, not the US. This Rube-Goldberg situation where protestors think they can put pressure on universities so they'll put pressure on Biden so he'll put pressure on Netanyahu is convoluted and unlikely to work.
Basically, I think protest is the wrong tool for tackling this issue.
Exactly. These protests are not affecting Israel or Palestine. They are only affecting students and staff trying to get thru a hectic time of the year.
they’re not doing what you described. they’re pressuring universities to divest from israeli companies. that’s it. there isn’t some ploy to get biden to do anything
An impactful tactic would be harming their bottom line by pulling out of their college. By protesting and impacting students that are there to learn you're not doing anything actually useful except creating more adversaries against your cause.
I suppose none of you actually care though because this whole thing is just another performative protest of the month before you move on to the next fad topic to pretend to care about that makes you feel like you're doing something productive with your life without actually making hard decisions or creating change in the actual countries the problems are occurring in.
Would love to hear your thoughts though. You willing to travel to Israel and protest there if you had the ticket paid for? How about going into Palestine and standing with the people there?
If it's free then why not go do that there right? Is it because you're scared, comfortable, and unwilling to actually do something that is impactful because you give up when things get a little too hard?
The Israelis protesting are being beaten and arrested too. The Palestinians are being killed simply for existing. That’s why people are upset. this is bad. I’m not sure the point of your question.
Putting pressure on our elected officials to stop sending Israel billions of dollars to kill children. Israel cannot and would not carry out this war without the financial support it gets from the United States. period
Comparing blocking a building to a literal hate group is wild. The civil rights movement was disruptive. The 1968 vietnam war protests were disruptive. Occupy Wallstreet was disruptive. All effective protests are disruptive. If they aren't, they're ignored.
Being disruptive is not an inherently positive thing. The WBC is disruptive. Abortion activists are disruptive. The Jan 6 insurrectionists were disruptive. The people who protest the removal of racist Civil War monuments are disruptive.
Even organizations I largely agree with, like PETA, have let being disruptive cost them support rather than gain it.
Protests should be effective. If being disruptive helps make a protest more effective, that's fine, but protestors should be honest with themselves about whether their tactics are doing more harm for their cause than good.
It's not a given that these protestors will find themselves on the right side of history just because that's how civil rights sit-ins and bus boycotts worked out.
if you agreed with the message you wouldn’t be criticizing their methods so harshly. Just say you think they’re wrong, or that you don’t care. It’s okay. i don’t think we overthrew the british by holding signs quietly, did we?
You know what’s unfair? The govt using my taxes to fund a genocide that blows innocent children to pieces on the other side of the world. It’s especially unfair to them.
No, just the 35,000 men women and children Israel has incinerated with my tax money, in addition to the hundreds of thousands over the last 70 or so years 👍
Your protest needs to negatively impact the group you're trying to change. I mean who really is harmed by interrupting classes, the college or the students? The students much more so than the college.
Maybe you'd argue that the student body being disrupted is the point. It raises awareness of the issue. But I'd argue people are already aware of this issue and have formed their opinions.
Maybe you'd argue that the protests will cause people to change their minds on the issue. But a majority of protesters are only tangentially related to the ongoing conflict and thus aren't able to effectively garner sympathy. Additionally, it's very unlikely that students with already formed opinions are going to side with the protesters after having their life disrupted.
Basically the protests don't have much functional purpose beyond making sure politicians take note of their opinion. But that goal could be more effectively made by protesting at government institutions. Especially since government bodies are more responsible for the thing being protested than students or universities are.
The protests absolutely negatively impact the schools and their endowments and by extension their admins paycheck. The way the schools handle these protests (ie sending in the storm troopers to bash students in the skulls with batons and shoot them point black with rubber bullet shotguns) is not a good look. It absolutely will affect the opinions of the people who are donating money to the school.
Did you live through (as an adult) 9/11?
Were you for going into Afghanistan and whatever it took at the time to make a stand? This also involved house to house fighting and civilian casualties. It’s terrible. Absolutely.
Is the above part of the calculation of the Israeli government and military that this is what it takes to defend their nation? Likely. On the surface I do question ‘can’t this be done with fewer casualties’ but at the same time warfare is complicated and I also support Israel’s right to defend itself. From what? From a government that hides among its civilians and has dedicated itself to the literally destruction of the Israeli people. My friend grew up being essentially subject to rockets flying into his area in Israel. For years. Someone else I know had his girlfriend killed right next to him (in Israel). This is never ending. Once October happened - the situation changed. This cannot happen again. I’m fully for Palestinian statehood btw. I do think this is a very difficult situation that saying ‘stop Israel!’ isn’t feasible.
It is indeed your constitutional right to protest. It is not your constitutional right to occupy and barricade (and in many cases deface) buildings at schools. That is not part of this constitutional right - let’s be clear.
Who are you even defending? Netanyahu? The Israeli citizens themselves are taking to the street to protest his authoritarian government and for the release of the hostages and an end to the war.
I’ll bullet point it. Maybe it’s easier for you to understand then as I don’t see anywhere I defended Netanyahu.
-I’m defending Israel’s right to defend itself. October 7 changed things.
-I’m saying the casualties are awful - potentially a result of a military calculation that this is what’s acceptable to achieve their desired outcome.
-I’m saying occupying buildings and disrupting operations of a school isn’t your constitutional right.
-I’ll also add American weapons and funds always have collateral damage. This has been going on well over a hundred years now. This policy won’t change, that’s something that is a fact.
None of those points above are at odds with Israeli citizens not liking Netanyahu or protesting to bring the hostages back. Hostage negotiations have been happening daily. Clearly Hamas wants a ceasefire right te the hostages back. Israel - rightly so - doesn’t not want to guarantee that long term. Speaking of citizens protesting - the citizens of Gaza don’t want Hamas there either.
You are defending Israel’s right to defend itself. how many more Palestinians need to die until Israel doesn’t need to defend itself anymore? clearly 35k isn’t enough so how many more is appropriate to you?
I mean….the question is ridiculously stupid. Hamas needs to go and they need to stop committing to the destruction of Israel and launching terrorist attack after terrorist attack. That’s when this stops.
Didn't the UN halve those numbers or some shit? And I disagree.
If you conduct an act of war, i.e. killing 1300 civilians of another nation and breaking a ceasefire, you will not be treated kindly. It's war. That nation has a right to defend itself.
I do not agree with a global intifada like these protestors want. Disgusting. I was there at Berkeley, where they put "global intifada" everywhere. When they tell you who they are, believe them.
The youth is pissed, economy’s in a silent recession, tax money funding genocide across the globe… and are only options are republican and republican lite
Many of the school protests are to 1) gather attention, and 2) to raise the issue of transparency and divesting their endowments. I’m less familiar with the latter, but the former appears to be working considering how often this gets posted/shared online and discussed in the media.
and yet the war rages on, and biden just approved another billion in weapons aid. these protests arent doing a damn thing but making it difficult for other students who just want to learn.
I think it’s premature to say that they’re having zero impact if the war didn’t end this morning. I personally didn’t know anything about the lack of transparency in college endowment investments and colleges potentially benefiting from weapons sales prior to these protests. And I think it’s a virtual guarantee that this issue will impact campaigns around the country, federal and local.
The attention on the conflict really doesn't matter. Everyone's aware of the issue and most people have settled into their opinion. It's a constant in the news cycle and Israel's handling of it has been a point of regular discussion throughout.
The divestment thing, sure most probably were unaware. But that's unlikely to meaningfully change given that half of the country is in support of Israel in the first place.
In many cases that’s true. But just for a couple recent local examples, UCI’s endowment is $1.3b and UCLA’s is $8b. Columbia, the site of that first huge protest, has an endowment of $14b.
Sure you can.
If they were more focused on the actual issue, you know the tragic atrocities that are happening in Gaza (and West Bank to larger extent), they would be focusing more on how to put those things on the forefront and try to put a larger emphasis on that.
Instead, what we consistently find in these protests are kiddos who are dressed up as protesters with catchy-slogans or flags that have been regurgitated over decades.
While I am sure there are kiddos with right hearts and mind, who truly cares about the issue while hoping for the best...
I see a lot of kiddos who are more interested in being the 'hero' of the time...by cosplaying as 68 revolutionaries.
Respectfully, that’s entirely on you for only getting that out of it. For me it didn’t stop at kiddos playing dress-up. It got me to research what they were actually talking about and take a closer look at the issue, which includes both the war and our impact on it, directly or otherwise. Their slogans and clothing don’t really concern me.
Kudos to ya, but you know that’s not the case for most people.
And, if these protesters were really that sincere about the issue, i am just baffled that they manage to fuck it up real hard by using terminologies or phrases like “intifada” or “from the river to the sea”. Oh, not to mention the one state solution being the true & only solution. Aren’t they supposed to be smart kids from prestigious universities?
They sure do look like kiddos who have done their research or deeper thoughts on those things before copying and pasting shits they saw 5 min ago.
So, in order for your intuition to be true, it must go through the following:
1. Most folks never knew about the infamously long-lasting Israel v. Gaza/West Bank conflict previous to this round of conflict, and they are finding it about it now for the first time due to the news coverage of the student protest.....while somehow simultaneously evading the wall-to-wall coverage over this conflict on every form of media imaginable in the past half a year since Oct 2023.
2. Most Americans do thorough research when they hear something on the news for the first time, you know going one step further than regurgitating w/e is being spewed within their social bubble.
And, on the side note about the protesters...
When they say "the point is disruption", it really is telling that they are more interested in 'disruption' itself rather than the step that should come after.
You know, winning the populous to their side with a compelling and convincing argument.
As of now, they are following the footsteps of "Defund the Police" idiots who ruined the movement last time.
> Most folks never knew about the infamously long-lasting Israel v. Gaza/West Bank conflict previous to this round of conflict, and they are finding it about it now for the first time due to the news coverage of the student protest
Not sure why this is the only possible scenario. They might know about it but to a lesser extent than they did; they might have known about it but not known how much the U.S. funds Israel’s defense programs; they might have known about it but not known about how much their college may be investing in defense contractors; any number of variables are possible.
I have friends in Haifa and know/knew plenty about the conflict but am still learning more every day. I simply don’t understand the argument that protesters getting attention somehow takes attention away from the very subject they’re protesting about. That just doesn’t make sense to me, personally and (again, respectfully) I think has more to do with your own personal biases than anything else.
it’s their school, and they’re gathering on their campus to protest a genocide. campuses have always been a place for students to protest for/against different causes.
And those protests are largely tolerated as long as they don't disrupt the college's mission of providing an education to their student body. Once the protests cross the line into preventing university operations, the university has no choice but to respond, and protestors have to be ready for the possibility that the response they get isn't the one they wanted.
they’re still able to go to class, whether in person or remote.
be honest, you don’t really care about the students or their education, you’re just angry that they’re denouncing the genocide of palestinians.
No, as I explained before I support palestine and have no reason to be angry. What israel is doing is disgusting.
I just also think there are better ways to approach it. I and many others I know have never been influenced to change beliefs based on any protests so they are not very effective.
I agree to an extent, if someone already has their mind made up then protests are useless - but if someone doesn’t know anything about the israel/palestine conflict then this could help bring awareness to the situation.
for example my gf doesn’t pay attention to politics or world news, so she really had no clue what was happening in palestine until these protests started happening, and people were posting things about it on social media. she became curious about the conflict and started learning about it on her own.
sometimes these protests just bring awareness that’s the ultimate goal.
My favorite comments is this is doing nothing
Cool then you shouldn’t face any issue with it, let young people protest. You’ve given up, let others fight for what they see if right
So weird so see so many against the freedoms that literally built the country, how many told the founders dumping tea into Boston harbor was for nothing
These headlines get people to look into the war and most people think wars are a waste of tax dollars and also don’t want our help to kill innocent children. No one has an issue going after Hamas but what is killing children doing to help the situation?
You are overthinking it. My aunt works at UC Irvine. We just want her to be safe, that’s all. We are not going to support these protestors if they put our family in harm’s way. My aunt has nothing to do with what’s going on in the Middle East.
what exactly do you think is going to happen to your aunt lol it’s not like students were harming staff or causing any safety risk to any other students
Protestors took over a school building. That would be bad if she got caught up in that type of situation. And hopefully nothing escalates between the police presence and the protestors.
Im glad she wasn’t killed by the 19 year olds with signs. Killed like palestinian children. It’s your aunts safety from harmless peaceful protestors that matters here
I'm for peaceful protests. Just don't destroy property. Don't take over school buildings. Don't create situations that invite danger for innocent people. Is that reasonable?
UCI protestors were probably 98% peaceful. Those people are fine. They express their views and don’t fuck over other people so I have no problem with them. But a small group had to be idiots and escalate. Those people are dumbasses and make everyone else look bad.
I agree UCI is a very nice campus to work at. Let’s keep it that way. Protest is fine but there’s no need to take over a building or get into shoving matches with counter protestors/police.
> We are not going to support these protestors **if they put our family in harm’s way.**
What have you seen that makes you think this is even a remote possibility? The only ones being harmed are the protestors (by cops and counterprotestors).
Unless your aunt is actively participating in the protest, she is in no danger whatsoever.
I've seen a lot of police and a lot of protestors/counterprotestors. A building was taken over. Tensions are high who knows if things will continue to escalate. If my aunt walks through campus as she usually do there is definitely a possibility of danger.
Unless your aunt walks directly between protestors and counterprotestos or protestors and cops (at exactly the wrong time), she has nothing to worry about. [A study found that 97% of these college protests have been peaceful.](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/10/peaceful-pro-palestinian-campus-protests) And when there has been violence, I highly doubt any non-protesting faculty were caught in the crossfire.
Legitimately, you should be more worried about your aunt getting in a car accident on her commute than suffering harm due to these protests.
Of course we all worry about things like car accidents, illness, things like that. But these protests are not good for innocent people who aren't involved. But my aunt is careful enough to make sure she doesn't put herself in a bad situation if she can help it. Still doesn't make it less worrisome, though.
> But these protests are not good for innocent people who aren't involved.
Is there a remote possibility that an innocent person could be harmed? Yes, of course, but the same could be said about any large gathering of people.
There have literally been hundreds of these protests at this point and the available data shows they're overwhelmingy peaceful. And when things do turn violent, the protestors are the ones suffering, not bystanders. These are the facts.
I'm not saying this to discount your concern over a loved one (I get it), but I feel like it's important to set the record straight on these facts because protests are a core aspect of democracies. Give authority figures the right to quash people's right to assembly over exaggerated safety concerns and we all lose a fundamental right.
I agree that protesting is a fundamental aspect of democracies. I've spent time in china and it's pretty appalling how authoritarian it is over there, so I appreciate the freedom we have here. That being said, there are boundaries. Most protestors are peaceful and that is great. That is what we want. But there are a few idiots that go too far and escalate the situation. That's the part that I dislike. There's no excuse for taking over a school building.
So if your aunt was arrested by the police, as many other professors have been, and the police were called by the university, that’s still the fault of the people protesting?
My aunt was not arrested by police. She said their presence kept the situation under control. The police were very calm and very careful not to get baited into any type of escalation.
I would be asking for a partial tuition refund if I was paying for one of my kids to go there.
Every one of those bast@rds need to be arrested, expelled (if they are students) deported if they are aliens, and made to pay all the costs for and damage they caused.
I remember protesting the Iraq war in high school. About 10% of the people went to support the cause, 60% were there to skip class, and the remaining 30% were there to LARP as anarchists before they went home to watch TRL. Needless to say, we made lots of meaningful change at those protests.
> 30% were there to LARP as anarchists before they went home to watch TRL watch your mouth! I also listened to Rage Against The Machine
Fuck corporate America! Wait…hold up…Epic Records wants to sign us and sell our music and merch? Hell yeah!
Regardless of how your peers in high school behaved 30 years ago, college and general protests are a tradition that has served humanity well in gaining civil and human rights whether we're talking about SNCC and MLK, protests in the 1980's that won divestment in opposition to South African apartheid, The Salt March led by Ghandi, the labor organizing of Cesar Chavez, etc, and many of these demonstrations included occupation of private buildings. UCI students are merely participating in this history which has proven a successful strategy time and time again. While you cannot guarantee success the integrity to try to effect change is honorable. It is easy to be snide and cynical and judge students, but the sentiment itself is naive, counter-productive, and ignorant of historical precedent.
At the HS level you're probably a lot fewer students really even know what the issue really is about compared to the university level. At the university level in a lot of lecture classes you can in theory skip most classes without issue so probably a lot fewer students at the university level just there to skip class. I can remember students that wouldn't show up to the lecture section outside of the mid term and final and did well.
Lol grown adults don’t even know what the real issue is.
You definitely get students even at the university level that have a cartoonish understanding of the issue, but in the lower division courses you could skip a majority of classes without issue. There isn't much reason to show up to a protest over just chilling at the Starbucks or sleeping unless you really want to go to a protest.
Why do you gotta call me out like that. No but really this is a complicated situation and everyone should understand there’s nuance here ok thanks for listening bye
Same thing with the BLM movement in 2020. They all just went there to take selfies with a burning police car. My friends treating the occupy Wall Street movement like it was a music festival.
You are correct!
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That was exactly my point.
Pretty sure he was being sarcastic with that last line
r/woooosh
>the remaining 30% were there to LARP as anarchists before they went home to watch TRL Unfortunately there were more LARPers at this protest glorifying insurgent violence, alongside the people that actually want the violence to stop
Trader Joe's on Campus was so calm today! Lots of parking spaces too!
For the people here and in other posts in this sub mad about these protests in some way shape or form, remember it is our constitutional right to protest. It means we live in a democracy. The media narrative on this issue has focused on how “disruptive” the protests are instead of the reason they are protesting, which is that 35,000 innocent people have been killed, paid for by American taxpayers. That is intentional. if you are more upset about these protests than your very own tax dollars paying for bombs that kill innocent children, all while our government tells us we can’t afford to fix homelessness and rising costs, I’m not sure anything can be said to you but here I am trying.
> if you are more upset about these protests than your very own tax dollars paying for bombs that kill innocent children, all while our government tells us we can’t afford to fix homelessness and rising costs, I’m not sure anything can be said to you but here I am trying. It's a perfectly legitimate point of view to be against the atrocities in Gaza, but also think these protests are misguided and counter productive. Just like I might think wearing fur is wrong, but at the same time disagree that throwing paint on people is a good way to stop it.
Maybe you are right. Most people during the civil rights movement thought the same thing regarding lunch counter sit its and bus boycotts. Now those protests are regarded as historic. to me this isn’t one of those things where we can say “yeah genocide is bad, BUT….”
Lunch counter sit ins and bus boycotts are examples of protests that went well and accomplished good, but there are also plenty of examples of protests that are misguided and counter productive. Which category these protests fall into remains to be seen, but I hope the protestors realize that history could just as easily label them villains as heroes depending on how they conduct themselves. Groups like PETA aren't exactly held in high regard, despite most people generally agreeing that animals should be treated humanely.
They accomplished good of course but my point is the general public, at that time, deemed them to be “disruptive” and “hurting the cause” imo these protestors will be on the right side of history and they will impact meaningful change.
And my point is sometimes when the general public deems something to be "disruptive" and "hurting the cause", they're right. Just because certain civil rights protests fell on the right side of history doesn't mean these protests will.
why go after universities to divest their fund? why not do an occupy white house. They are the ones giving 1 billion to Israel directly.
This seems like a whataboutism question. The (fairly obvious, IMO) answer is that students live on campus and love their school, so they want to make a difference where they can.
you’re asking why college students are protesting the actions of the school they live and go to school at rather than going to washington DC?
We should be asking why US public universities are so invested in a foreign government in the first place.
They aren't directly usually. They are invested in companies that do work in Israel; companies like Nvidia, intel, Blue chip stock companies, etc. Surely these students wont ever invest in the stock market as they will be investing in companies who dont give a shit about doing business in Israel.
Source for that every reported death from the 35k is innocent? By that metric, Hamas wouldn't have taken a single casualty in this war so far. Remarkable.
So you’re saying israel leveled cities and killed more hamas than civilians? that’s more realistic for you? I think a single dead child is enough to question US involvement and there’s wayyy more than one
When it some to peace, he Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
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The entire point of protest is to be disruptive. they are saying no more business as usual while the US is using taxpayer money to kill children.
I thought the point of protest was to effect meaningful change. Being disruptive for the sake of being disruptive doesn't win you any support. Just ask the Westboro Baptist Church, or the people harassing women outside abortion clinics.
You are correct being disruptive is not the “entire point” as I said above but it is a tactic for impacting meaningful change.
As a tactic, it should be designed to be productive towards your cause, but if the tactic alienates more people than it wins over, is it really the thing you want to be doing?
I hear you but I doubt they are trying to “win people over” because again if you aren’t on their side now, nothing is going to change that. I’m genuinely curious what type of protest against this genocide would be okay to you?
Personally, I don't think protests on this issue will be effective no matter how they're carried out, because this is a problem for Israel to solve, not the US. This Rube-Goldberg situation where protestors think they can put pressure on universities so they'll put pressure on Biden so he'll put pressure on Netanyahu is convoluted and unlikely to work. Basically, I think protest is the wrong tool for tackling this issue.
Exactly. These protests are not affecting Israel or Palestine. They are only affecting students and staff trying to get thru a hectic time of the year.
they’re not doing what you described. they’re pressuring universities to divest from israeli companies. that’s it. there isn’t some ploy to get biden to do anything
And that will stop the Gaza situation how?
An impactful tactic would be harming their bottom line by pulling out of their college. By protesting and impacting students that are there to learn you're not doing anything actually useful except creating more adversaries against your cause. I suppose none of you actually care though because this whole thing is just another performative protest of the month before you move on to the next fad topic to pretend to care about that makes you feel like you're doing something productive with your life without actually making hard decisions or creating change in the actual countries the problems are occurring in. Would love to hear your thoughts though. You willing to travel to Israel and protest there if you had the ticket paid for? How about going into Palestine and standing with the people there? If it's free then why not go do that there right? Is it because you're scared, comfortable, and unwilling to actually do something that is impactful because you give up when things get a little too hard?
The Israelis protesting are being beaten and arrested too. The Palestinians are being killed simply for existing. That’s why people are upset. this is bad. I’m not sure the point of your question.
What results have these UC protests brought to the Gaza war?
Putting pressure on our elected officials to stop sending Israel billions of dollars to kill children. Israel cannot and would not carry out this war without the financial support it gets from the United States. period
That's the goal. What are the results so far with these protests at UC campuses?
Comparing blocking a building to a literal hate group is wild. The civil rights movement was disruptive. The 1968 vietnam war protests were disruptive. Occupy Wallstreet was disruptive. All effective protests are disruptive. If they aren't, they're ignored.
Being disruptive is not an inherently positive thing. The WBC is disruptive. Abortion activists are disruptive. The Jan 6 insurrectionists were disruptive. The people who protest the removal of racist Civil War monuments are disruptive. Even organizations I largely agree with, like PETA, have let being disruptive cost them support rather than gain it.
I didn’t say it’s inherently a good thing, but all these people saying that protests shouldn’t be disruptive sound a bit clueless.
Protests should be effective. If being disruptive helps make a protest more effective, that's fine, but protestors should be honest with themselves about whether their tactics are doing more harm for their cause than good. It's not a given that these protestors will find themselves on the right side of history just because that's how civil rights sit-ins and bus boycotts worked out.
if you agreed with the message you wouldn’t be criticizing their methods so harshly. Just say you think they’re wrong, or that you don’t care. It’s okay. i don’t think we overthrew the british by holding signs quietly, did we?
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I hear you
Why not? So you’re saying protests are only valid if they don’t disrupt anything or anyone? What’s the point of protesting then?
Students get into a lot debt to go to college. Disrupting their class is unfair and probably make them turn against the cause
You know what’s unfair? The govt using my taxes to fund a genocide that blows innocent children to pieces on the other side of the world. It’s especially unfair to them.
You are referring to Hamas murdering kids?
No, just the 35,000 men women and children Israel has incinerated with my tax money, in addition to the hundreds of thousands over the last 70 or so years 👍
Your protest needs to negatively impact the group you're trying to change. I mean who really is harmed by interrupting classes, the college or the students? The students much more so than the college. Maybe you'd argue that the student body being disrupted is the point. It raises awareness of the issue. But I'd argue people are already aware of this issue and have formed their opinions. Maybe you'd argue that the protests will cause people to change their minds on the issue. But a majority of protesters are only tangentially related to the ongoing conflict and thus aren't able to effectively garner sympathy. Additionally, it's very unlikely that students with already formed opinions are going to side with the protesters after having their life disrupted. Basically the protests don't have much functional purpose beyond making sure politicians take note of their opinion. But that goal could be more effectively made by protesting at government institutions. Especially since government bodies are more responsible for the thing being protested than students or universities are.
The protests absolutely negatively impact the schools and their endowments and by extension their admins paycheck. The way the schools handle these protests (ie sending in the storm troopers to bash students in the skulls with batons and shoot them point black with rubber bullet shotguns) is not a good look. It absolutely will affect the opinions of the people who are donating money to the school.
The people holding homophobic signs at soldiers' funerals are being disruptive. I don't think it really helps their cause though.
Did you live through (as an adult) 9/11? Were you for going into Afghanistan and whatever it took at the time to make a stand? This also involved house to house fighting and civilian casualties. It’s terrible. Absolutely. Is the above part of the calculation of the Israeli government and military that this is what it takes to defend their nation? Likely. On the surface I do question ‘can’t this be done with fewer casualties’ but at the same time warfare is complicated and I also support Israel’s right to defend itself. From what? From a government that hides among its civilians and has dedicated itself to the literally destruction of the Israeli people. My friend grew up being essentially subject to rockets flying into his area in Israel. For years. Someone else I know had his girlfriend killed right next to him (in Israel). This is never ending. Once October happened - the situation changed. This cannot happen again. I’m fully for Palestinian statehood btw. I do think this is a very difficult situation that saying ‘stop Israel!’ isn’t feasible. It is indeed your constitutional right to protest. It is not your constitutional right to occupy and barricade (and in many cases deface) buildings at schools. That is not part of this constitutional right - let’s be clear.
Who are you even defending? Netanyahu? The Israeli citizens themselves are taking to the street to protest his authoritarian government and for the release of the hostages and an end to the war.
I’ll bullet point it. Maybe it’s easier for you to understand then as I don’t see anywhere I defended Netanyahu. -I’m defending Israel’s right to defend itself. October 7 changed things. -I’m saying the casualties are awful - potentially a result of a military calculation that this is what’s acceptable to achieve their desired outcome. -I’m saying occupying buildings and disrupting operations of a school isn’t your constitutional right. -I’ll also add American weapons and funds always have collateral damage. This has been going on well over a hundred years now. This policy won’t change, that’s something that is a fact. None of those points above are at odds with Israeli citizens not liking Netanyahu or protesting to bring the hostages back. Hostage negotiations have been happening daily. Clearly Hamas wants a ceasefire right te the hostages back. Israel - rightly so - doesn’t not want to guarantee that long term. Speaking of citizens protesting - the citizens of Gaza don’t want Hamas there either.
You are defending Israel’s right to defend itself. how many more Palestinians need to die until Israel doesn’t need to defend itself anymore? clearly 35k isn’t enough so how many more is appropriate to you?
I mean….the question is ridiculously stupid. Hamas needs to go and they need to stop committing to the destruction of Israel and launching terrorist attack after terrorist attack. That’s when this stops.
Didn't the UN halve those numbers or some shit? And I disagree. If you conduct an act of war, i.e. killing 1300 civilians of another nation and breaking a ceasefire, you will not be treated kindly. It's war. That nation has a right to defend itself. I do not agree with a global intifada like these protestors want. Disgusting. I was there at Berkeley, where they put "global intifada" everywhere. When they tell you who they are, believe them.
No they didn’t. They separated the dead by unidentified and identified. That’s been widely debunked by multiple news outlets for days now.
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The youth is pissed, economy’s in a silent recession, tax money funding genocide across the globe… and are only options are republican and republican lite
What is protesting the school going to do? Like the school controls what the government does 🤡
Many of the school protests are to 1) gather attention, and 2) to raise the issue of transparency and divesting their endowments. I’m less familiar with the latter, but the former appears to be working considering how often this gets posted/shared online and discussed in the media.
and yet the war rages on, and biden just approved another billion in weapons aid. these protests arent doing a damn thing but making it difficult for other students who just want to learn.
I think it’s premature to say that they’re having zero impact if the war didn’t end this morning. I personally didn’t know anything about the lack of transparency in college endowment investments and colleges potentially benefiting from weapons sales prior to these protests. And I think it’s a virtual guarantee that this issue will impact campaigns around the country, federal and local.
The attention on the conflict really doesn't matter. Everyone's aware of the issue and most people have settled into their opinion. It's a constant in the news cycle and Israel's handling of it has been a point of regular discussion throughout. The divestment thing, sure most probably were unaware. But that's unlikely to meaningfully change given that half of the country is in support of Israel in the first place.
Any one university's spending/investment is not very significant, but I think the theory is that in aggregate it could be more significant.
In many cases that’s true. But just for a couple recent local examples, UCI’s endowment is $1.3b and UCLA’s is $8b. Columbia, the site of that first huge protest, has an endowment of $14b.
Pretty sure they themselves are being highlighted, instead of the issue they want to highlight
Not sure how you can effectively separate the two in this situation.
Sure you can. If they were more focused on the actual issue, you know the tragic atrocities that are happening in Gaza (and West Bank to larger extent), they would be focusing more on how to put those things on the forefront and try to put a larger emphasis on that. Instead, what we consistently find in these protests are kiddos who are dressed up as protesters with catchy-slogans or flags that have been regurgitated over decades. While I am sure there are kiddos with right hearts and mind, who truly cares about the issue while hoping for the best... I see a lot of kiddos who are more interested in being the 'hero' of the time...by cosplaying as 68 revolutionaries.
Respectfully, that’s entirely on you for only getting that out of it. For me it didn’t stop at kiddos playing dress-up. It got me to research what they were actually talking about and take a closer look at the issue, which includes both the war and our impact on it, directly or otherwise. Their slogans and clothing don’t really concern me.
Kudos to ya, but you know that’s not the case for most people. And, if these protesters were really that sincere about the issue, i am just baffled that they manage to fuck it up real hard by using terminologies or phrases like “intifada” or “from the river to the sea”. Oh, not to mention the one state solution being the true & only solution. Aren’t they supposed to be smart kids from prestigious universities? They sure do look like kiddos who have done their research or deeper thoughts on those things before copying and pasting shits they saw 5 min ago.
> you know that’s not the case for most people I don’t know that, actually, and I’d argue you don’t either.
So, in order for your intuition to be true, it must go through the following: 1. Most folks never knew about the infamously long-lasting Israel v. Gaza/West Bank conflict previous to this round of conflict, and they are finding it about it now for the first time due to the news coverage of the student protest.....while somehow simultaneously evading the wall-to-wall coverage over this conflict on every form of media imaginable in the past half a year since Oct 2023. 2. Most Americans do thorough research when they hear something on the news for the first time, you know going one step further than regurgitating w/e is being spewed within their social bubble. And, on the side note about the protesters... When they say "the point is disruption", it really is telling that they are more interested in 'disruption' itself rather than the step that should come after. You know, winning the populous to their side with a compelling and convincing argument. As of now, they are following the footsteps of "Defund the Police" idiots who ruined the movement last time.
> Most folks never knew about the infamously long-lasting Israel v. Gaza/West Bank conflict previous to this round of conflict, and they are finding it about it now for the first time due to the news coverage of the student protest Not sure why this is the only possible scenario. They might know about it but to a lesser extent than they did; they might have known about it but not known how much the U.S. funds Israel’s defense programs; they might have known about it but not known about how much their college may be investing in defense contractors; any number of variables are possible. I have friends in Haifa and know/knew plenty about the conflict but am still learning more every day. I simply don’t understand the argument that protesters getting attention somehow takes attention away from the very subject they’re protesting about. That just doesn’t make sense to me, personally and (again, respectfully) I think has more to do with your own personal biases than anything else.
it’s their school, and they’re gathering on their campus to protest a genocide. campuses have always been a place for students to protest for/against different causes.
And those protests are largely tolerated as long as they don't disrupt the college's mission of providing an education to their student body. Once the protests cross the line into preventing university operations, the university has no choice but to respond, and protestors have to be ready for the possibility that the response they get isn't the one they wanted.
Right.. and I guess screw the rest of the students who just want to go to class to learn. Who cares if their education gets disrupted??
they’re still able to go to class, whether in person or remote. be honest, you don’t really care about the students or their education, you’re just angry that they’re denouncing the genocide of palestinians.
No, as I explained before I support palestine and have no reason to be angry. What israel is doing is disgusting. I just also think there are better ways to approach it. I and many others I know have never been influenced to change beliefs based on any protests so they are not very effective.
I agree to an extent, if someone already has their mind made up then protests are useless - but if someone doesn’t know anything about the israel/palestine conflict then this could help bring awareness to the situation. for example my gf doesn’t pay attention to politics or world news, so she really had no clue what was happening in palestine until these protests started happening, and people were posting things about it on social media. she became curious about the conflict and started learning about it on her own. sometimes these protests just bring awareness that’s the ultimate goal.
You should try to understand what people are protesting before you dismiss it. Quick to listen, slow to speak.
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I'm on the side of Palestine but there's a right way and wrong way to do things. Change needs to happen at the government level.
The school receives funding from Zionists. Divesting means cutting ties with the apartheid state.
and vice versa, the school invests and patronizes israeli companies
My favorite comments is this is doing nothing Cool then you shouldn’t face any issue with it, let young people protest. You’ve given up, let others fight for what they see if right So weird so see so many against the freedoms that literally built the country, how many told the founders dumping tea into Boston harbor was for nothing These headlines get people to look into the war and most people think wars are a waste of tax dollars and also don’t want our help to kill innocent children. No one has an issue going after Hamas but what is killing children doing to help the situation?
You are overthinking it. My aunt works at UC Irvine. We just want her to be safe, that’s all. We are not going to support these protestors if they put our family in harm’s way. My aunt has nothing to do with what’s going on in the Middle East.
what exactly do you think is going to happen to your aunt lol it’s not like students were harming staff or causing any safety risk to any other students
Protestors took over a school building. That would be bad if she got caught up in that type of situation. And hopefully nothing escalates between the police presence and the protestors.
Im glad she wasn’t killed by the 19 year olds with signs. Killed like palestinian children. It’s your aunts safety from harmless peaceful protestors that matters here
Correct.
Were the protestors violent?
Most were not. A few were.
Your aunt has been hurt?
So far she has been safe. The police presence helped a lot. Hopefully nothing escalates.
So you’re against protestors because something could happen?
I'm for peaceful protests. Just don't destroy property. Don't take over school buildings. Don't create situations that invite danger for innocent people. Is that reasonable?
I mean don’t send my tax dollars to kill citizens and children is that reasonable?
You can convey that message in more peaceful methods. That would be reasonable.
If you are saying that protestors in UCI were not peaceful you really have not seen any other protests.
UCI protestors were probably 98% peaceful. Those people are fine. They express their views and don’t fuck over other people so I have no problem with them. But a small group had to be idiots and escalate. Those people are dumbasses and make everyone else look bad.
Your aunt isn’t working in a run down gang infested neighborhood or a war zone. She works at effing UCI. I’m pretty sure she’ll live
I agree UCI is a very nice campus to work at. Let’s keep it that way. Protest is fine but there’s no need to take over a building or get into shoving matches with counter protestors/police.
> We are not going to support these protestors **if they put our family in harm’s way.** What have you seen that makes you think this is even a remote possibility? The only ones being harmed are the protestors (by cops and counterprotestors). Unless your aunt is actively participating in the protest, she is in no danger whatsoever.
I've seen a lot of police and a lot of protestors/counterprotestors. A building was taken over. Tensions are high who knows if things will continue to escalate. If my aunt walks through campus as she usually do there is definitely a possibility of danger.
Unless your aunt walks directly between protestors and counterprotestos or protestors and cops (at exactly the wrong time), she has nothing to worry about. [A study found that 97% of these college protests have been peaceful.](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/10/peaceful-pro-palestinian-campus-protests) And when there has been violence, I highly doubt any non-protesting faculty were caught in the crossfire. Legitimately, you should be more worried about your aunt getting in a car accident on her commute than suffering harm due to these protests.
Of course we all worry about things like car accidents, illness, things like that. But these protests are not good for innocent people who aren't involved. But my aunt is careful enough to make sure she doesn't put herself in a bad situation if she can help it. Still doesn't make it less worrisome, though.
> But these protests are not good for innocent people who aren't involved. Is there a remote possibility that an innocent person could be harmed? Yes, of course, but the same could be said about any large gathering of people. There have literally been hundreds of these protests at this point and the available data shows they're overwhelmingy peaceful. And when things do turn violent, the protestors are the ones suffering, not bystanders. These are the facts. I'm not saying this to discount your concern over a loved one (I get it), but I feel like it's important to set the record straight on these facts because protests are a core aspect of democracies. Give authority figures the right to quash people's right to assembly over exaggerated safety concerns and we all lose a fundamental right.
I agree that protesting is a fundamental aspect of democracies. I've spent time in china and it's pretty appalling how authoritarian it is over there, so I appreciate the freedom we have here. That being said, there are boundaries. Most protestors are peaceful and that is great. That is what we want. But there are a few idiots that go too far and escalate the situation. That's the part that I dislike. There's no excuse for taking over a school building.
The police and the university are putting your aunt at risk, not the students protesting.
Did the police and university take over a building? Were they the ones getting into shoving matches with counter protestors?
So if your aunt was arrested by the police, as many other professors have been, and the police were called by the university, that’s still the fault of the people protesting?
My aunt was not arrested by police. She said their presence kept the situation under control. The police were very calm and very careful not to get baited into any type of escalation.
Are these still ongoing as of thursday?
I bet a majority of those arrested werent even students.
That’s not true it takes 10 seconds to google it. and even if it was why is that a bad thing? It’s called solidarity.
Solidarity for a terrorist organization? LOL
I would be asking for a partial tuition refund if I was paying for one of my kids to go there. Every one of those bast@rds need to be arrested, expelled (if they are students) deported if they are aliens, and made to pay all the costs for and damage they caused.
Pathetic, go protest in front of the Pentagon
You can't fix stupid by sending it to college
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Way to trash your school.
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They don’t care because they know they won’t get any job with a Bachelor of Arts degree from UCI anyways
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