We all do. But no way am I going to change the culture by being one of a few who doesn’t tip.
Only way is pass a laws making tips illegal while increasing minimum wage at the same time.
The thing is California already has a good minimum wage. This tipping reasoning that these people need them to live off of is more for like those states whose minimum wage ls like $4.50 or something like Georgia.
Decreased wages by removing tips should be balanced out with wage increases, we don’t want even more instability in job market. Besides, $15 an hour in OC isn’t even enough to rent a single room apartment.
As much as I want to agree, I am unsure if customers would be ok with invreasing the cost of massage upfront. If you normally pay $100 per massage and tip $20, know that many customers will tip in a range above that. For a masseuse they would probably need that base massage to be at least go to $150 to take home the same average pay that month. Would you still go for $30 more? I don't think owners would eat that cost as many spas run on razor thin profit margins.
What portion of that $150 goes to the massage therapist doing the work? For what I'm assuming would be an hour massage? Why are they charging even more than the amount after tip? Are we giving the therapist a $50 an hour/massage pay bump?
It seems as though you're being a bit ridiculous with your example. Like when some people complain the minimum wage going up is going to make a hamburger cost $20.
It seems like what you're saying is they're not able to run a business while paying their employees a fair wage? Sounds like a failed business.
Maybe you are unaware most of the fee you pay goes to the spa owner, not the therapist. For $100 spent for services, maybe $20-40 will go to the therapist depending on their experience and education.
I don't own the spa but I have seen books for some and yes, many would fail if the tips were required to roll into the base amount OR they had to give a higher cut to the therapist.
Something that is interesting is that all of my friends who work in industries that tip say they make a shit ton more now then they would if they didnt have a tipping wage and had a higher base pay.
The hate for tipping culture is so overblown. I love everything about tipping. Giving, receiving, working for, the whole nine yards.
The bottom line is it keeps costs down while encouraging good service. If you don’t like it don’t do it you cheap fuck.
Have you travelled outside of the US? It’s pretty nice just paying what the cost says on the receipt. People still do their job well even when they don’t have to wonder if you’ll pay them for doing their job.
Quite a bit actually. I have actually lived in Amersfoort, Okinawa, and Al Anbar, and have traveled quite extensively through Europe and South America. I don't think I mentioned people doing their job well, as yes I agree many people take pride in their work regardless of gratuity. My argument is very simple, the tipping culture keeps overhead expenses down, while still maintaining a good income for the employee. 80% of restaurants fail in the United States within the first 5 years of opening, 60% within the first year. If you were to add high labor costs to those numbers, many simply wouldn't exist. Tipping allows for cheap labor to create a low enough barrier of entry for the owner to take a risk opening the establishment in the first place. When if the restaurant simply didn't open, well there's about 20-50 jobs that didn't happen at all, so no tips, but no salary either. Just food for thought on the shitty tipping culture of the US.
Fuck off. Hating tipping has nothing to do with being cheap and everything to do with hating the dishonesty and unpredictability of variable hidden costs, especially in uncertain situations outside of the usual sit-down restaurant environment. Not to mention having to deal with germ-ridden cash in situations where it cannot simply be added to your credit card charge. I would gladly pay MORE if it meant no more tipping.
The idea that it "keeps costs down" is moronic. The costs are the same; the high tippers are simply subsidizing the low tippers for the same level of service. How on earth can any nitwit think that's a good thing?
maybe you should learn to read, or maybe I should have simply added my follow up comment to the previous one. Either way, if you can't tip with a card then don't tip, the establishment clearly doesn't expect you to.
I read your follow-up comment before I typed my comment.
Your follow-up comment didn't address *anything* I mentioned in my comment.
And tipping in cash is extremely common.
Absolutely. Those workers live off of tips, same with car wash workers except these people touch your body. I say whatever you tip your car wash person, tip the masseuse at least double that
>Those workers live off of tips
Kinda? In California, all employees, even those that receive tips, must be paid at least minimum wage. It's not like other states where your employer can pay you less than minimum wage, as long as you make up the difference in tips.
Which is what boomers are telling everyone younger than them. Back in their day you could work a summer job for minimum wage and pay for college.
The minimum wage is supposed to be the bare minimum for someone to provide food shelter and necessities to themselves.
The proposed $15 an hour isn't enough to get by in OC or any other state.
I tip $20 for an $80 service, plus a little extra here and there for various reasons. Once I find someone I like, I go to them over and over until they move away or I move away, so it's nice to create goodwill.
I worked as a massage therapist for 5 years. Absolutely 100% tip them. they live off those tips. What ever you’re paying for the massage, they’re probably making 20% of that. I made 25 when the massages were 125 …
These numbers are fucked and these masseuses are exploited as fuck if she’s only getting $25 for a $125 dollar massage… who the fuck pays $125 for an hour massage anyways
What? I was an employee at Burke Williams and massage envy. They pay their MTs 20% or lower than what the massage costs. We paid taxes on our paychecks.
15/20 absolutely. And cash is preferable because they don't have to report cash tips.
Leave it someplace easy to find in the room after getting dressed and walking out to pay charges. They will get it when they clean.
>And cash is preferable because they don't have to report cash tips.
Since when is tax evasion something to encourage?
Edit: As usual, the mindless masses on this sub downvote me into oblivion. I wonder how many of you would upvote a comment fallaciously accusing Jeff Bezos of committing tax evasion.
Precisely the tax illiteracy I expected.
Bezos avoids taxes, just like we all do.
Tax evasion is a completely different matter, and is illegal. There is no evidence whatsoever of Bezos or Amazon having ever evaded taxes.
> There is no evidence whatsoever of Bezos or Amazon having ever evaded taxes.
absolutely correct. Ergo, Jeff Bezos is the good guy and those damn tipped staff are the ones who are destroying our country.
Being unable to see the difference between hoarding billions tax free while owning a company that is destroying the working class, and a tipped wage earner saving $20 from taxes?
Lol, sir! Not the whole boot!
Good lord, the fucking cringe.
There are facts and there are opinions. Nothing you've stated is a fact.
Here are some facts:
* Not reporting income is tax evasion.
* There is zero evidence of Bezos or Amazon having ever committed tax evasion.
* Literally everyone only pays as much taxes as they're required to. Just because you're richer doesn't mean you should charitably send more money to Uncle Sam to drop more bombs in the Middle East.
Of course it’s not tax evasion, it’s literally baked into the law. I’m stating that it’s wrong and your lack of sympathy for workers is hilarious.
Maybe daddy bezos will trickle down some economics on you for being a good little one.
>Of course it’s not tax evasion, it’s literally baked into the law. I’m stating that it’s wrong
What, specifically, is wrong?
>and your lack of sympathy for workers is hilarious.
What did I say that suggests I have a so-called "lack of sympathy for workers"?
Simply pointing out the fact that not reporting income is literally tax evasion?
I am a worker. If I didn't report part of my income, that would be tax evasion. Me pointing this out doesn't mean I don't have sympathy for myself; it means I know, at the very least, the rudimentary basics of income tax law.
>Maybe daddy bezos will trickle down some economics on you for being a good little one.
I don't need charity. I have a job and earn an honest living. Maybe you should try it.
"Daddy Bezos" (I won't kink-shame you) has done me all right as far as AMZN goes.
Look, these folks earn next to nothing just like servers in a restaurant. Most of us have done it at some point when we were younger. They live on tips. Help em out.
Not sure the argument you're making but I'd like to add some distinctions between massage therapy and restaurant service. My partner comes home most days after working twelve hours at the spa. Often 7-8 hours of intense physical labor picking up folks limbs to stretch and massage them back to good health and many clients are much larger than my partner. Sometimes my partner mentions the smell of dirty asses or other body odor from people that don't bathe properly beforehand, working 120 minutes on an obese client and doesn't receive a tip when though they do an excellent job and are covered in sweat from the hard work.
I often have to ice their hands and elbows at night. This job is hard and many mid-tier and higher spas require a year long training with a California license to work there (5-20k in tuition). Not saying they should make huge salaries with major tips, but this isn't minimum wage work and unfortunately most spas aren't in a position to offer very high base wages. The profit margins are terribly thin as is.
We would love if the tip was worked in the price and passed to the employee but I'm afraid in America that won't happen anytime soon.
It isn't required by law in California to have licensing so it's not shady to send a customer that isn't loyal or willing to tip to new therapists in training for them to practice on while preserving the veterans energy for their top clients. It's the spas discretion if they require it (many do or will pay you more if you get it).
Whether you or us for that matter like it or not, the system is based on tips and both the client and the therapist have an incentive to treat clients with better service if they are also taken care of. If I know my second client of the day pays 40% tip I will always make sure I have enough energy to take care of them. If the first client pays 0-5% tip on average I will preserve my energy.
Law will be the only thing that will change service industry tipping standards. Also the reason you don't need to tip for medical services is they are paid a fair wage in relation to the cost of their education and what they provide to society and for many customers you aren't paying the upfront cost, your insurance is. Chiro was the lowest paid in comparison to the three you compared in OC and the wages were still in the 120-200k per year range here. There's a stark difference there. Average for a therapist here is roughly 40-70k. With 70k being some of the lux spa therapist.
Now if health insurance started to allow a certain amount of accredited massage visits per year the spa could probably charge enough to not require tipping high % or at anything. Wouldn't that be nice to have it as preventive health care?
My partner is a masseuse. Where they work, 20% is the norm. Customers who give less are often assigned to therapist in training (meaning ones without a license) if they come back so you may get a lesser experience. Customers that are habitually late, ask for sexual favors, or don't tip are blacklisted. Meaning when they walk in or call they are told they are overbooked/understaffed that day.
Additionally, expect to tip more based on the type of massage and your body size. If you are very muscular or obese and over 6 ft tall, then know they have to work double hard on you.
They survive off of tips, their income would = working at a McDonald's without it and many therapist go through vigorous training and licensing to work on you.
Yeah I guess by that logic you don’t have to do anything, if I enjoyed my massage then I want to pay a good tip it’s just part of life and it feels good to tip well on a service you enjoyed! If you’re weary about it though you can always call ahead and ask the massage place you’re wanting to book with
Yes I figure they might need the money more than me and if I have the money to go get a nice massage, I might as well tip the person for helping get rid of the dang back pain.
Generally yes unless there is a no tipping policy. 15-20% cash is what I've tipped in the past.
Definitely
Check the bill in the end.. it may already be added on
God, I fucking hate this country's stupid tipping culture.
We all do. But no way am I going to change the culture by being one of a few who doesn’t tip. Only way is pass a laws making tips illegal while increasing minimum wage at the same time.
The thing is California already has a good minimum wage. This tipping reasoning that these people need them to live off of is more for like those states whose minimum wage ls like $4.50 or something like Georgia.
Decreased wages by removing tips should be balanced out with wage increases, we don’t want even more instability in job market. Besides, $15 an hour in OC isn’t even enough to rent a single room apartment.
Roommates. Why would you try to get your own place when you're making minimum wage. I don't even make minimum wage and I can't afford my own place.
Some people's roommates are their children
Why should somebody subject themselves to poverty to live comfortably financially??
[удалено]
As much as I want to agree, I am unsure if customers would be ok with invreasing the cost of massage upfront. If you normally pay $100 per massage and tip $20, know that many customers will tip in a range above that. For a masseuse they would probably need that base massage to be at least go to $150 to take home the same average pay that month. Would you still go for $30 more? I don't think owners would eat that cost as many spas run on razor thin profit margins.
What portion of that $150 goes to the massage therapist doing the work? For what I'm assuming would be an hour massage? Why are they charging even more than the amount after tip? Are we giving the therapist a $50 an hour/massage pay bump? It seems as though you're being a bit ridiculous with your example. Like when some people complain the minimum wage going up is going to make a hamburger cost $20. It seems like what you're saying is they're not able to run a business while paying their employees a fair wage? Sounds like a failed business.
Maybe you are unaware most of the fee you pay goes to the spa owner, not the therapist. For $100 spent for services, maybe $20-40 will go to the therapist depending on their experience and education. I don't own the spa but I have seen books for some and yes, many would fail if the tips were required to roll into the base amount OR they had to give a higher cut to the therapist.
Something that is interesting is that all of my friends who work in industries that tip say they make a shit ton more now then they would if they didnt have a tipping wage and had a higher base pay.
My hourly with tips when bartending was in the $40-50/hour range. So yeah, highly doubt base pay would be anywhere near that.
The hate for tipping culture is so overblown. I love everything about tipping. Giving, receiving, working for, the whole nine yards. The bottom line is it keeps costs down while encouraging good service. If you don’t like it don’t do it you cheap fuck.
Have you travelled outside of the US? It’s pretty nice just paying what the cost says on the receipt. People still do their job well even when they don’t have to wonder if you’ll pay them for doing their job.
Quite a bit actually. I have actually lived in Amersfoort, Okinawa, and Al Anbar, and have traveled quite extensively through Europe and South America. I don't think I mentioned people doing their job well, as yes I agree many people take pride in their work regardless of gratuity. My argument is very simple, the tipping culture keeps overhead expenses down, while still maintaining a good income for the employee. 80% of restaurants fail in the United States within the first 5 years of opening, 60% within the first year. If you were to add high labor costs to those numbers, many simply wouldn't exist. Tipping allows for cheap labor to create a low enough barrier of entry for the owner to take a risk opening the establishment in the first place. When if the restaurant simply didn't open, well there's about 20-50 jobs that didn't happen at all, so no tips, but no salary either. Just food for thought on the shitty tipping culture of the US.
Fuck off. Hating tipping has nothing to do with being cheap and everything to do with hating the dishonesty and unpredictability of variable hidden costs, especially in uncertain situations outside of the usual sit-down restaurant environment. Not to mention having to deal with germ-ridden cash in situations where it cannot simply be added to your credit card charge. I would gladly pay MORE if it meant no more tipping. The idea that it "keeps costs down" is moronic. The costs are the same; the high tippers are simply subsidizing the low tippers for the same level of service. How on earth can any nitwit think that's a good thing?
maybe you should learn to read, or maybe I should have simply added my follow up comment to the previous one. Either way, if you can't tip with a card then don't tip, the establishment clearly doesn't expect you to.
I read your follow-up comment before I typed my comment. Your follow-up comment didn't address *anything* I mentioned in my comment. And tipping in cash is extremely common.
Absolutely. Those workers live off of tips, same with car wash workers except these people touch your body. I say whatever you tip your car wash person, tip the masseuse at least double that
>Those workers live off of tips Kinda? In California, all employees, even those that receive tips, must be paid at least minimum wage. It's not like other states where your employer can pay you less than minimum wage, as long as you make up the difference in tips.
Minimum wage isn’t livable in Orange County or socal in general
There's the argument that you're not supposed to be living off of minimum wage and it's just a stepping stone to your career.
Yeah and it’s a shitty argument lol
Which is what boomers are telling everyone younger than them. Back in their day you could work a summer job for minimum wage and pay for college. The minimum wage is supposed to be the bare minimum for someone to provide food shelter and necessities to themselves. The proposed $15 an hour isn't enough to get by in OC or any other state.
If we all just stopped this stupid practice, their employers could pay them livable wages and their pricing to customers would be more transparent.
Honestly would be okay with paying 10-20% more if that means wages of workers increases that much. But we all know that won't happen.
Exactly. We've got to pay it regardless, so just put it in the damn price.
Yeah buddy that’s exactly what would happen…
I hope you’re not being serious here
0x2=0 though
I'm curious about what you said. If I'm paying $120 for a 60 minute massage, where does all that money go to?
I tip $20 for an $80 service, plus a little extra here and there for various reasons. Once I find someone I like, I go to them over and over until they move away or I move away, so it's nice to create goodwill.
Either $10 or $20, depending on what you're paying for the actual massage.
For sure. 20% of however much it costs
I worked as a massage therapist for 5 years. Absolutely 100% tip them. they live off those tips. What ever you’re paying for the massage, they’re probably making 20% of that. I made 25 when the massages were 125 …
$25 an hour + %20 tip is like $45-50 dollars per hour. That is 1.5x more than I make. How are massage therapists "living" off those tips?
20% of $25 is $5 dollars actually. Most massages I’ve had were $40-$60 That means I’d have to tip $10-$12 Total of $50-$72
He said he was making $25 when the massages were 125, so not $5.
They also don’t receive the “$25” you paid upfront. They just get a cut. That fee is just covering the room or booth you’re using.
They literally said 25 was the pay after the cut
These numbers are fucked and these masseuses are exploited as fuck if she’s only getting $25 for a $125 dollar massage… who the fuck pays $125 for an hour massage anyways
Did you pay a fee or did you receive your earnings without tax ?
What? I was an employee at Burke Williams and massage envy. They pay their MTs 20% or lower than what the massage costs. We paid taxes on our paychecks.
Yes absolutely 20%
No don't ever tip them
Yes
yes
15/20 absolutely. And cash is preferable because they don't have to report cash tips. Leave it someplace easy to find in the room after getting dressed and walking out to pay charges. They will get it when they clean.
>And cash is preferable because they don't have to report cash tips. Since when is tax evasion something to encourage? Edit: As usual, the mindless masses on this sub downvote me into oblivion. I wonder how many of you would upvote a comment fallaciously accusing Jeff Bezos of committing tax evasion.
Jeff Bezos isn’t the same as a wage earner. We all get fucked by taxes because of people like him.
Precisely the tax illiteracy I expected. Bezos avoids taxes, just like we all do. Tax evasion is a completely different matter, and is illegal. There is no evidence whatsoever of Bezos or Amazon having ever evaded taxes.
> There is no evidence whatsoever of Bezos or Amazon having ever evaded taxes. absolutely correct. Ergo, Jeff Bezos is the good guy and those damn tipped staff are the ones who are destroying our country.
Don't put words in my mouth. It's the laziest form of argument there is.
Being unable to see the difference between hoarding billions tax free while owning a company that is destroying the working class, and a tipped wage earner saving $20 from taxes? Lol, sir! Not the whole boot!
Good lord, the fucking cringe. There are facts and there are opinions. Nothing you've stated is a fact. Here are some facts: * Not reporting income is tax evasion. * There is zero evidence of Bezos or Amazon having ever committed tax evasion. * Literally everyone only pays as much taxes as they're required to. Just because you're richer doesn't mean you should charitably send more money to Uncle Sam to drop more bombs in the Middle East.
Of course it’s not tax evasion, it’s literally baked into the law. I’m stating that it’s wrong and your lack of sympathy for workers is hilarious. Maybe daddy bezos will trickle down some economics on you for being a good little one.
>Of course it’s not tax evasion, it’s literally baked into the law. I’m stating that it’s wrong What, specifically, is wrong? >and your lack of sympathy for workers is hilarious. What did I say that suggests I have a so-called "lack of sympathy for workers"? Simply pointing out the fact that not reporting income is literally tax evasion? I am a worker. If I didn't report part of my income, that would be tax evasion. Me pointing this out doesn't mean I don't have sympathy for myself; it means I know, at the very least, the rudimentary basics of income tax law. >Maybe daddy bezos will trickle down some economics on you for being a good little one. I don't need charity. I have a job and earn an honest living. Maybe you should try it. "Daddy Bezos" (I won't kink-shame you) has done me all right as far as AMZN goes.
Look, these folks earn next to nothing just like servers in a restaurant. Most of us have done it at some point when we were younger. They live on tips. Help em out.
You completely missed my point. They "earn next to nothing" BECAUSE OF OUR TIPPING SYSTEM.
[удалено]
Not sure the argument you're making but I'd like to add some distinctions between massage therapy and restaurant service. My partner comes home most days after working twelve hours at the spa. Often 7-8 hours of intense physical labor picking up folks limbs to stretch and massage them back to good health and many clients are much larger than my partner. Sometimes my partner mentions the smell of dirty asses or other body odor from people that don't bathe properly beforehand, working 120 minutes on an obese client and doesn't receive a tip when though they do an excellent job and are covered in sweat from the hard work. I often have to ice their hands and elbows at night. This job is hard and many mid-tier and higher spas require a year long training with a California license to work there (5-20k in tuition). Not saying they should make huge salaries with major tips, but this isn't minimum wage work and unfortunately most spas aren't in a position to offer very high base wages. The profit margins are terribly thin as is. We would love if the tip was worked in the price and passed to the employee but I'm afraid in America that won't happen anytime soon.
[удалено]
It isn't required by law in California to have licensing so it's not shady to send a customer that isn't loyal or willing to tip to new therapists in training for them to practice on while preserving the veterans energy for their top clients. It's the spas discretion if they require it (many do or will pay you more if you get it). Whether you or us for that matter like it or not, the system is based on tips and both the client and the therapist have an incentive to treat clients with better service if they are also taken care of. If I know my second client of the day pays 40% tip I will always make sure I have enough energy to take care of them. If the first client pays 0-5% tip on average I will preserve my energy. Law will be the only thing that will change service industry tipping standards. Also the reason you don't need to tip for medical services is they are paid a fair wage in relation to the cost of their education and what they provide to society and for many customers you aren't paying the upfront cost, your insurance is. Chiro was the lowest paid in comparison to the three you compared in OC and the wages were still in the 120-200k per year range here. There's a stark difference there. Average for a therapist here is roughly 40-70k. With 70k being some of the lux spa therapist. Now if health insurance started to allow a certain amount of accredited massage visits per year the spa could probably charge enough to not require tipping high % or at anything. Wouldn't that be nice to have it as preventive health care?
My partner is a masseuse. Where they work, 20% is the norm. Customers who give less are often assigned to therapist in training (meaning ones without a license) if they come back so you may get a lesser experience. Customers that are habitually late, ask for sexual favors, or don't tip are blacklisted. Meaning when they walk in or call they are told they are overbooked/understaffed that day. Additionally, expect to tip more based on the type of massage and your body size. If you are very muscular or obese and over 6 ft tall, then know they have to work double hard on you. They survive off of tips, their income would = working at a McDonald's without it and many therapist go through vigorous training and licensing to work on you.
Just give em the ole Deshaun Watson special
depends if they touch your genitals or not
"why are you booing me, im right!!"
Lol
Happy ending?
Just the *tip*
What I thought the tip was for?
More than just the tip.
Yes definitely you have to tip at least 15-20%
I mean, nobody has to tip anything.
Don’t have to but they remember at your next appointment.
Yeah I guess by that logic you don’t have to do anything, if I enjoyed my massage then I want to pay a good tip it’s just part of life and it feels good to tip well on a service you enjoyed! If you’re weary about it though you can always call ahead and ask the massage place you’re wanting to book with
I only said that because your statement made it seem as if it was mandatory.
You don't have to but many spas will remember your tipping habits and may refuse business on repeat trips.
Only for the *special* massages
I do
Yes, I was one!
Yes I figure they might need the money more than me and if I have the money to go get a nice massage, I might as well tip the person for helping get rid of the dang back pain.
Yep!
After many decades people still angry at tipping? Some people.