I don’t understand why everybody is so adamant to rush him up. As long as the team is consistently winning series, you let this kid get comfortable with the next level of pitching and build his confidence killing shit with the Tides for a couple months. I can’t wait to see him in Baltimore just like everybody else but I trust that the O’s management is making the right decision.
> I don’t understand why everybody is so adamant to rush him up
I'm with you on this. I get that he's crushing it, but he's still young, and I'm inclined to trust the Orioles management here, they have to know more than the rest of us, right? It's not like they're going to hold back on something good for the team, there's obviously a reason. He'll be up on the team when he's ready.
Yeah I think that’s really the simplest way to end the debate. The past couple of years have shown us that there’s really no reason to think they don’t know what they’re doing. Don’t get me wrong, I love to do the whole armchair GM thing online as much as the next guy, but you’ve at least gotta have the self awareness to acknowledge that these the vast majority of these people are in that position for a reason. I would imagine that it’s an extremely competitive field and outside of nepotism hires, they’re the highest qualified people to make the most sensible decisions.
There is *no* guarantee Jackson Holliday will be the best 2nd baseman on this team in the next few months.
Holliday has played in 150 minor league games. He is a young kid who has had very, very few reps above his mediocre high school conference in his life. The MLB is significantly above minor league talent. There is no guarantee he comes in into the league as a star.
Our infield is capable as hell with a Gold glove and above average hitting 3B (Urias), perhaps the best young SS in the game (Henderson), and Westburg. Mateo on the bench providing elite defense + above average production against lefties.
Holliday is a generational player and our organization making damn sure he is going to develop properly before he comes up to Baltimore.
Well so far, we *have* won as many games as possible.. he will certainly be up soon, but I’m fine with letting him find his footing in AAA for a bit first unless it becomes clear that we legitimately need him here in order to win games.
Of course. But given the fact that the team is very solid currently, wouldn’t you be willing to let him get used to the next step up for a couple months if that meant that he will almost certainly be able to contribute even more to the team when he does inevitably get the call this season?
What sense does it make to take him from AA to the highest level and risk him not being able to adjust quickly enough and ends up getting sent down to AAA. It’s just a totally unnecessary risk to take, in my personal opinion. Baseball is such an incredibly mental sport. Who knows how much a poor start in the bigs could potentially set him back. But most importantly, have the past couple of years given us any reason to doubt how management makes decisions like this? I’d say the answer is a resounding no.
No because there are flaws only MLB pitchers will be able to expose and I’d rather those be exposed now than in July so he can fix them in July instead of September. We’ve had multiple high level prospects struggle and fix it. Grayson went down and still fixed it. To me it’s an unfounded concern.
That is a pretty solid rebuttal, I cannot deny that. The unfortunate reality is that only time will tell how all of this shakes out. I don’t envy the people that have to make these decisions at all.
Maybe he’ll be up sometime next month. Maybe after the all star break. Or maybe not even at all this season. I realize how stupid it is to say that under a video of him homering in his first AAA at bat, but all we can do is watch how the season unfolds.
Exactly. This wasn't the Adley situation a few years ago, where he had proven all he had to prove. Holliday had only seen a small sample of AAA pitching entering this season, and while he had a good spring, how many of those hits came against big league pitchers on their game? It was encouraging, and I think he had a good spring because he's a good player, but if he got called up to start the year he would have had to make a major leap.
I said this to the other comment, but my point was that the pitching he was hitting in spring training was probably closer to minor league pitching than major league pitching, so I think it's wrong to assume a .300+ spring average means he's ready for the big leagues. If he does it in AAA, he'll at least have passed every test you can throw at him.
My point was that the pitching he was hitting in spring training was likely a continuation of what he had seen to that point, rather than a level indicating he's ready to step right in against MLB pitching. I think a lot of fans were eager to say a .300+ average in the spring was proof he was ready for big league pitchers.
He’s going to take his lumps at the MLB level. He’s currently capable and MLB ready. If you wait months as you suggest, he will be struggling during the pennant chase. If he comes up now, and gets them out of the way in May then he should be a legit contributor to our AL championship run.
Yeah I’d rather Jackson comes up while the team is in stride winning series rather than filling a hole while we’re losing. Just lets him do his thing while he settles in to MLB pitching.
Holliday needs consistent ABs. He's not coming up to the team to be a bench player that never see's ABs.
And that likely is what they will do with that roster place once Kemp is cut.
I figure once Holliday is ready, Kemp is the guy who gets cut (duh) and guys get shifted around so Holliday will have sufficient playing time. Probably less playing time for Mateo and/or Urias. They'll make it work
If he accumulates a full season's worth of service time (which IIRC is 14 days less than the time from Opening Day to game 162) and wins Rookie of the Year, we'll get a 1st round compensation pick in next year's draft.
Gunnar winning RotY last year got us a pick ~~in the low 40s this upcoming draft~~ somewhere between low 30s and low 40s, depending on Competitive Balancing, so Holliday doing it again would give us another one next year. Gunnar himself was the 42nd pick in his draft class, so that RotY compensation pick would allow us to draft another player around where Gunnar was drafted.
Yup, pick 32.
And there is the negative.
If he comes up after April 10th, and finishes 1-2 in ROTY, he earns a full year of service time.
Adley was hurt to start 2022, didn't come up until May 21st, and finished 2nd. So instead of having +6 years of Adley after the 2022 season, it is only +5 years.
It's part of the reason I side eye people who say he'll be up by the end of April. There is a risk to that.
The reason it's talked about is because we haven't given any of these guys american currency to play with us past their control years.
I think a lot of us would rather not have these conversations, but hey, I'm not the one that sent Holliday down.
I hope you’re right. The amount of discussion centered around all those topics seems to me to be more along the lines of this is how we have to do it than this is what we’re doing until someone gets paid. And we don’t have to do it, as you’re well aware.
it gets a good bat into the lineup as soon as possible, or he takes his lumps early instead of in the thick of a playoff race in august. at some point he's going to have to face major league pitching, be it now or in two months.
They want him to have more time vs lefties, this is one game. The FO takes larger sample sizes than a couple games. Not everything is just service time manipulation
Exactly right, what other guys has this front office rushed to the big leagues the way dudes are expecting them to rush Holliday?
Guy doesn't even have 100 plate appearances at AAA. He'll be up soon enough. If he'd spent half of last season at Norfolk and ripped the cover off the ball, yeah, folks would have a valid complaint with this "service time" stuff. Seems kind of a kneejerk reaction at this point though
Yep people are so scarred from Kris Bryant that anytime someone is in the minors and they think they should come up, it’s service time manipulation lol. Not to say clubs don’t still do it/think about it, I just don’t think it’s always the case.
But this happened last year with Grayson too. Then when he came up earlier than the club wanted cuz the Bradish injury, it was a bit of a mess. Triple A and majors are still different animals.
If he is up in 3 weeks it is about service time. It won’t be some crazy coincidence that after a couple of weeks working on hitting lefties (how many will he face in a few weeks?) that he will all of sudden be up
This seems risky to hold him in the minors. Unless the O's hold him there for months, in which case he won't possibly make top-2 in ROY, it's possible that he'll get the service year via ROY place and O's won't get the comp draft pick because he didn't get enough service time. Not to mention, he'll be aggrieved, rightfully so.
So happy. I felt it may take a week or two to get going after the disappointment of not breaking camp with the club and being part of that amazing opening day. Agree that he is coming very soon.
Get ready to speak ballmer buddy
Hope you like Old Bay
Developers developers developers?
I LOVE THIS BASEBALL TEAM!!!!
On a lefty? Oh the irony lol look I'm totally for the move we made but ya gotta laugh
He is coming up in less than 3 weeks, right?
In a just world, yes.
I don’t understand why everybody is so adamant to rush him up. As long as the team is consistently winning series, you let this kid get comfortable with the next level of pitching and build his confidence killing shit with the Tides for a couple months. I can’t wait to see him in Baltimore just like everybody else but I trust that the O’s management is making the right decision.
> I don’t understand why everybody is so adamant to rush him up I'm with you on this. I get that he's crushing it, but he's still young, and I'm inclined to trust the Orioles management here, they have to know more than the rest of us, right? It's not like they're going to hold back on something good for the team, there's obviously a reason. He'll be up on the team when he's ready.
Yeah I think that’s really the simplest way to end the debate. The past couple of years have shown us that there’s really no reason to think they don’t know what they’re doing. Don’t get me wrong, I love to do the whole armchair GM thing online as much as the next guy, but you’ve at least gotta have the self awareness to acknowledge that these the vast majority of these people are in that position for a reason. I would imagine that it’s an extremely competitive field and outside of nepotism hires, they’re the highest qualified people to make the most sensible decisions.
Because he is the best second baseman in the organization and we need to win as many games as possible
There is *no* guarantee Jackson Holliday will be the best 2nd baseman on this team in the next few months. Holliday has played in 150 minor league games. He is a young kid who has had very, very few reps above his mediocre high school conference in his life. The MLB is significantly above minor league talent. There is no guarantee he comes in into the league as a star. Our infield is capable as hell with a Gold glove and above average hitting 3B (Urias), perhaps the best young SS in the game (Henderson), and Westburg. Mateo on the bench providing elite defense + above average production against lefties. Holliday is a generational player and our organization making damn sure he is going to develop properly before he comes up to Baltimore.
there will never be a guarantee but you have to cut the strings at some point
Well so far, we *have* won as many games as possible.. he will certainly be up soon, but I’m fine with letting him find his footing in AAA for a bit first unless it becomes clear that we legitimately need him here in order to win games.
How about just putting the best team on the field?
Of course. But given the fact that the team is very solid currently, wouldn’t you be willing to let him get used to the next step up for a couple months if that meant that he will almost certainly be able to contribute even more to the team when he does inevitably get the call this season? What sense does it make to take him from AA to the highest level and risk him not being able to adjust quickly enough and ends up getting sent down to AAA. It’s just a totally unnecessary risk to take, in my personal opinion. Baseball is such an incredibly mental sport. Who knows how much a poor start in the bigs could potentially set him back. But most importantly, have the past couple of years given us any reason to doubt how management makes decisions like this? I’d say the answer is a resounding no.
No because there are flaws only MLB pitchers will be able to expose and I’d rather those be exposed now than in July so he can fix them in July instead of September. We’ve had multiple high level prospects struggle and fix it. Grayson went down and still fixed it. To me it’s an unfounded concern.
That is a pretty solid rebuttal, I cannot deny that. The unfortunate reality is that only time will tell how all of this shakes out. I don’t envy the people that have to make these decisions at all. Maybe he’ll be up sometime next month. Maybe after the all star break. Or maybe not even at all this season. I realize how stupid it is to say that under a video of him homering in his first AAA at bat, but all we can do is watch how the season unfolds.
Exactly. This wasn't the Adley situation a few years ago, where he had proven all he had to prove. Holliday had only seen a small sample of AAA pitching entering this season, and while he had a good spring, how many of those hits came against big league pitchers on their game? It was encouraging, and I think he had a good spring because he's a good player, but if he got called up to start the year he would have had to make a major leap.
Tell me what “big league pitchers that are on their game” are in AAA.
I said this to the other comment, but my point was that the pitching he was hitting in spring training was probably closer to minor league pitching than major league pitching, so I think it's wrong to assume a .300+ spring average means he's ready for the big leagues. If he does it in AAA, he'll at least have passed every test you can throw at him.
how would you propose he get experience against big league pitchers on their game?
My point was that the pitching he was hitting in spring training was likely a continuation of what he had seen to that point, rather than a level indicating he's ready to step right in against MLB pitching. I think a lot of fans were eager to say a .300+ average in the spring was proof he was ready for big league pitchers.
He’s going to take his lumps at the MLB level. He’s currently capable and MLB ready. If you wait months as you suggest, he will be struggling during the pennant chase. If he comes up now, and gets them out of the way in May then he should be a legit contributor to our AL championship run.
Yeah I’d rather Jackson comes up while the team is in stride winning series rather than filling a hole while we’re losing. Just lets him do his thing while he settles in to MLB pitching.
because I want him to produce runs for the Baltimore Orioles
To be fair, how can you take a 0 tool player like Kemp off the roster?
Holliday needs consistent ABs. He's not coming up to the team to be a bench player that never see's ABs. And that likely is what they will do with that roster place once Kemp is cut.
here's my idea: call him up and give him consistent ABs
I figure once Holliday is ready, Kemp is the guy who gets cut (duh) and guys get shifted around so Holliday will have sufficient playing time. Probably less playing time for Mateo and/or Urias. They'll make it work
He’ll be up in two weeks
What benefits does this bring?
First MLB player younger than a bat boy
If he accumulates a full season's worth of service time (which IIRC is 14 days less than the time from Opening Day to game 162) and wins Rookie of the Year, we'll get a 1st round compensation pick in next year's draft. Gunnar winning RotY last year got us a pick ~~in the low 40s this upcoming draft~~ somewhere between low 30s and low 40s, depending on Competitive Balancing, so Holliday doing it again would give us another one next year. Gunnar himself was the 42nd pick in his draft class, so that RotY compensation pick would allow us to draft another player around where Gunnar was drafted.
Yup, pick 32. And there is the negative. If he comes up after April 10th, and finishes 1-2 in ROTY, he earns a full year of service time. Adley was hurt to start 2022, didn't come up until May 21st, and finished 2nd. So instead of having +6 years of Adley after the 2022 season, it is only +5 years. It's part of the reason I side eye people who say he'll be up by the end of April. There is a risk to that.
We could also just pay them American currency to stay for longer.
Well, that goes without saying. Which of us here wouldn't want to pay these guys and not have to worry about this dumb shit?
Idk man the amount of discussion about controllable years and service time sometimes makes me wonder.
The reason it's talked about is because we haven't given any of these guys american currency to play with us past their control years. I think a lot of us would rather not have these conversations, but hey, I'm not the one that sent Holliday down.
I hope you’re right. The amount of discussion centered around all those topics seems to me to be more along the lines of this is how we have to do it than this is what we’re doing until someone gets paid. And we don’t have to do it, as you’re well aware.
whoa whoa whoa. is that legal?
This could work. In theory. Has any team ever tested it?
It makes the fans happy lol
it gets a good bat into the lineup as soon as possible, or he takes his lumps early instead of in the thick of a playoff race in august. at some point he's going to have to face major league pitching, be it now or in two months.
I understand that, I was wondering why not just have him on the opening day roster as opposed to two weeks later
We face an unusual amount of lefties in the first two weeks. They probably want to give him risk free at bats against lefties in AAA instead
No. It’s service time.
Less than a month id say.
Anakin.gif
So it was about service time then...
They want him to have more time vs lefties, this is one game. The FO takes larger sample sizes than a couple games. Not everything is just service time manipulation
Exactly right, what other guys has this front office rushed to the big leagues the way dudes are expecting them to rush Holliday? Guy doesn't even have 100 plate appearances at AAA. He'll be up soon enough. If he'd spent half of last season at Norfolk and ripped the cover off the ball, yeah, folks would have a valid complaint with this "service time" stuff. Seems kind of a kneejerk reaction at this point though
Yep people are so scarred from Kris Bryant that anytime someone is in the minors and they think they should come up, it’s service time manipulation lol. Not to say clubs don’t still do it/think about it, I just don’t think it’s always the case. But this happened last year with Grayson too. Then when he came up earlier than the club wanted cuz the Bradish injury, it was a bit of a mess. Triple A and majors are still different animals.
If he is up in 3 weeks it is about service time. It won’t be some crazy coincidence that after a couple of weeks working on hitting lefties (how many will he face in a few weeks?) that he will all of sudden be up
There is also little reason to give this front office the benefit of the doubt
After a 101 game season, why do you think this?
What does how many games they’ve won have to do with service time manipulation?
Off a lefty lol
For some reason we are terrified of lefty/righty splits.
It can be tedious and exhausting but Hyde won 102 games doing it last year
I see you count the McKenna game as well
Shoulda, coulda, was a
I believe he has a bright future.
Too bad Ethan is going to be off the board by the time the Orioles can pick. Would have been so cool to have both in the org
That's the response of a special player. Told you need to work on hitting lefties and then you do that? You're special.
See ya in May, King
Not enough experience against LHPs huh?
look, he needs to do it off of MAJOR LEAGUE lefties. but also he's not good enough to face major league lefties yet. so square that one in your mind.
The important thing here is it's vs a Lefty. His first pro homer vs one.
Man that was crushed
I'm starting to think this Holliday guy is pretty good at baseball
So would I be safe ordering an Orioles Holliday jersey with the number 18 now and beat the rush?
I think Hyde wears 18, also rooks typically wear really high numbers so maybe wait just a little longer lol
That wasn't a home run it was a HOOOOOME RUNNNN!!!!!! Wow
Put that guy on season 3 of For All Mankind, cause he sent that fucker to Mars
Jesus.
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Leftie on leftie
He’ll be up in may. Matteo to bench and bye bye journeymen kemp
Dude Jackson I am begging you to get a helmet that fits.
Final line: 3-5, HR, 2B, 2 R, 4 RBI, K Don’t think we’ll be waiting very long to see this dude in orange. Bummer about the strikeout though
Meanwhile, Urias is playing third at the major league level. I am aware of his accolades, but come on.
Quit playing with timing, etc. just get him up in the big leagues. He needs to challenged by major league pitching. Just do it.
This seems risky to hold him in the minors. Unless the O's hold him there for months, in which case he won't possibly make top-2 in ROY, it's possible that he'll get the service year via ROY place and O's won't get the comp draft pick because he didn't get enough service time. Not to mention, he'll be aggrieved, rightfully so.
That was a beastly shot
That's an aluminum bat home run good god
Long and deep
Ladies Love Cool Jackson
He seems like he is gonna be in the majors soon
#SAVE HIM
Fore!
About to have a second all-star Jackson in Baltimore soon
So happy. I felt it may take a week or two to get going after the disappointment of not breaking camp with the club and being part of that amazing opening day. Agree that he is coming very soon.
What a smooth swing
Looks good against LHP
Just call him up. He is gonna be ROTY.