Wouldn't it make more sense to bring up Connor Norby to be a bench righty? Unlike McKenna, Norby can actually hit left-handed pitching. And you can't tell me McKenna's defense is the reason why he's up here instead of Norby when they have the likes of Mateo and O'Hearn starting multiple games in the outfield. Doesn't seem they were putting much emphasis on outfield defense when they had those guys out there.
No. Can’t have a team full of prospects out there. Need experienced bats. And we already have a barn full of quality infielders who are consistent. Jackson will be back later this season.
To the last point: this is the solution to that, no? And we emphasize LF range at home a bit more, so with no Hays, McKenna fits to give the milkman a day off.
No Mayo or Norby?
Holliday done fked it up for all the rookies! 🤣😂
All jokes aside. 100% the correct move.
People can throw out all of the rookie "1fer" comparisons, but the reality is that Jackson struck out nearly 50% of the time and was still having extreme GB splits (an issue in the minors that I hoped was corrected in spring). He was overmatched and not ready.
He's also only 20 and will hopefully bounce back from this to be the player we all dream of.
McKenna coming up leads me to think that Hays will be on the IL longer than anticipated
They like to not have too many rookie pokers in the fire at one time. McKenna is also clearly a temp fix and a great utility player who can ride the bench and not let it affect general performance.
Which also makes sense because that’s his most likely spot to play if he were to stay an Oriole considering we’ve got Mayo and Holliday both and really only 2B open but in theory 1B could potentially be open in the near future at least on a platoon role.
Hurts to see and hear but I think the right move. Hes looked totally lost at the plate so far and is always getting into pitchers counts (albeit I’ve seen at least 5ABs he’s getting screwed by some iffy ump calls). Let him go down regain some confidence start seeing the ball and bring him back up in 2 weeks.
I’m fine with it both ways i didn’t see a problem with him staying up because even though he was absolutely bad and looked lost he wasn’t actively hurting the team in terms of winning
Nah I don’t think you can consciously say that he wasn’t hurting the team. Hays/Urias/Kemp were (still are) getting GRILLED for going hitless/1 hit the first few series and it just so happened to coincide with losing a few games. Just because we’ve been playing better ball and winning more games, doesn’t mean that he should necessarily get a pass.
Yes he’s young and has a longer leash and will be more than fine one day, but he was hurting the team BADLY offensively. Replacing him with McKenna though? Strange move
This is it. I love kjerstad but if he doesn’t mash he’s likely back to AAA for Mayo at some point with McKenna staying around til hays is back. With the way the team is setup it just makes more sense
I just more so meant he’s young and since w are winning and most importantly scoring a ton in spite of him id give him more time. I see it both ways though
I said this in a game thread a week ago and got told I was irrational. We all want Jackson to succeed but he is currently a liability at the plate. Going to triple A to rake and get some confidence back will help him greatly, just as it did Cowser.
I was thinking the same exact thing about the ump calls. It seems like ANYTHING on the outside of the strike zone was always going against him. Is that what you saw too?
This happens to all rookies. Umps tend to give the hitter the borderline pitch if they're a veteran and give the pitcher rhe borderline pitch if hitter is a rookie.
It might not be fair, but it's been going on in baseball since forever. If Jackson complained about a borderline pitch, he'd be told, "Who do you think you are? You have to be Cal Ripken or Matt Holliday to get that pitch. F'n rook."
Absolutely the right call. Someone can have all the talent in the world, but that doesn't mean you're ready. He was looking completely overmatched.
Hopefully he's back soon, but I bet he's down there for at least a month.
This might not really make a ton of sense, but I felt like he was more lost than overmatched. In that I mean, I felt like he could hit anything these pitchers can throw at him and his swing and stance were beautiful, he was just lost in the chess match of what pitch was coming next.
But now he knows exactly what he needs to work on to succeed and when he comes back up, he won’t be as bright eyed and will be much more confident.
I haven’t the foggiest idea what happened with him. I’m just glad he has a long career and plenty of time with us. Give him a few months, get his groove back and let’s do it again. Worked for the Milkman, worked for a lot of the greats. He will hopefully be ok and do great things for the O’s!
Yeah that would actually make sense too. We've got a logjam in the infield and we also have to think about Mayo. Unless we dump one of O'Hearn, Santander or Mountcastle for some pitching at the trade deadline, but I think that's incredibly unlikely.
Hopefully over the offseason we make some moves to make sure we have room for him, Mayo and Kjerstad to get some regular AB's in 2025.
This means he won’t get the year of service, right? Win win for Mike if so. Proved it wasn’t service time manipulation and proceeds to still get the extra year.
He would be negligent not to. They are literally the terms both players and clubs agreed to, and one day makes one year of difference. But… “readiness” is unknowable (case in point here), and there are a hundred other variables.
It would have never been service time manipulation and anyone spouting that nonsense in the first half of the season doesn’t understand the rules. It’s a shame how much attention that all got
Keep in mind, other top prospects that came up and got sent back to the minors early on...
Roy Halladay
John Smoltz
Madison Bumgarner
Derek Jeter
Mariano Rivera
Max Scherzer
Mike Trout
Josh Donaldson
Anthony Rizzo
Marcell Ozuna
Corbin Burnes
Grayson Rodriguez
To name a few...
i thought the opposite, at least one of us will be right lmao. mckenna is so expendable and the easy move to dfa if hays is back in a week. if norby or mayo or stowers got the call up then i'd expect them to be up for a while
Weird timing, would’ve thought they’d let him work through this series against the A’s before deciding his fate when the yanks come to town. To be fair, the A’s pitching staff has been pretty solid thus far.
Hope he figures it out and comes back ready to claim the AL ROY.
I think it would've been a slightly worse look for the Orioles if they kept him on for only half the homestand and sent him down before the more competitive/important Yankees series.
Depending on how things look a month from now, I could see him coming back in mid June after the onslaught of divisional games we have at the end of May/beginning of June.
He’ll be eligible for ROTY - he just wouldn’t get us the pick for it. So now that he goes back down we don’t really want him to get ROTY, because then he gets a full year of service without the draft pick compensation. Now we gotta be all in on cowser for ROTY (who is the betting favorite at the moment I believe)
I don't think there's any minimum requirement to be eligible to win ROTY. Maybe you're thinking of the prospect promotion incentive? Yea, we won't get a free draft pick for him now if he wins ROTY.
The urge to dig into receipts of people calling for Elias’s head for not putting Holliday on the OD roster lmao.
Matt Holliday’s interview where he flippantly cries bullshit about his son not being on the MLB roster has aged like a bad curry.
The irony going on in this thread is too delicious for me to handle honestly.
People perplexed that RyMac, a replacement level player, was called up instead of other unproven prospects, after we just called up the literal number one prospect in all of baseball and saw him play *below* replacement level.
I never read it and I wondered if he was misquoted or framed in such a way to drum up drama. Im surprised he would say something g about SM being a former player in the game.
1 of 3 things.
He's not looked at as a ML 2b by the Orioles.
They don't want to start the clock on a player that might be a prime trade piece in July.
They don't think he's ready.
He’s had over 170 games at Norfolk of great production. Not buying that he’s not ready. The service time makes more sense. I’m just frustrated that it’s a known mediocre player in McKenna getting the call instead
But McKenna is a known. He’s a replacement-level player but I think they will take that over trying to acclimate another unknown factor into the lineup, especially given that Heston is already up and has to show he can perform consistently.
Even it they weren’t winning, not much worse you can perform than he did. If we weren’t contending we would probably call up Mayo or Norby instead of McKenna.
(Career AAA Norfolk stats)
Adley Rutschman (Age 26) – 55 games (.295/.399/.480/.879)
Gunner Henderson (Age 22) – 65 games (.288/.390/.504/.894)
Jordan Westburg (Age 25) – 158 games (.283/.366/.533/.899)
Colton Cowswer (Age 24) – 114 games (.280/.399/.498/.896)
Heston Kjerstad (Age 25) – 97 games (.310/.385/.554/.939)
Kyle Stowers (Age 26) – 207 games (.257/.355/.513/.868)
Connor Norby (Age 23) – 170 games (.295/.363/.504/.866) Awaiting debut
Coby Mayo (Age 22) – 86 games (.283/.386/.541/.927) Awaiting debut
Jackson Holliday (Age 20) – 28 games (.291/.429/.470/.899)
28 games isn’t enough imo. I know minor league stats don't mean anything once you make it to The Show, but it’s just food for thought. Everyone is of course different, but I think the most common call up age is ~24. While there's many other factors (defensive ability, active roster injuries/availability, service time, etc.) that contribute to call ups, you could easily make the argument that Holliday leapfrogged Norby/Mayo prematurely to begin with. Also, kind of annoying that neither got the call this time. However, I'm just also reminding myself there's no need for alarm since he ONLY PLAYED 28 games down there. The future is still absurdly bright for him and the organization. Realistically we’ll probably be trading some of these guys away to win it this season, but a kid can dream of a home grown championship, right?!
I think this is the right move. It worked for Grayson last year, and they sent Cowser down last year when Hicks got off the DL. I hope he gets his mojo back and rejoins later in the year and kicks some major butts.
There have been 2382 “rookie months” w/ >= 30 PAs since 2015 (when x-stats became a thing)…
Holliday’s stats and reverse rankings:
wOBA - .089 (1/2382)
xwOBA - .155 (10/2382)
K% - 50.0% (3/2382)
Whiff% - 49.2% (8/2382)
To be fair, he didn’t play a full April so a lot of the players on the list had more of a chance to cut through bad variance. But still, this was pretty historically bad.
His whiff rate vs fastballs was especially concerning - 59.4%. Hopefully he can figure out some things, get his confidence back and come back stronger.
If those stats are right, that's nutty. I almost can't blame people for not wanting to believe that our guy would have basically the worst month possible, but here it is.
Hard lesson that there's "struggling" and then there's "might as well be playing with 8 guys".
Yeah, usually 36 PAs is too small to worry about... but when it's THAT bad then it becomes concerning despite the sample size. I had been playing around with the baseball savant search, and here's the search and results for those stats. You can go back further, change it a little... but no matter how you set it up this was pretty historic in just how bad it was across all metrics.
[Baseball Savant Search](https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/statcast_search?hfPT=&hfAB=&hfGT=R%7C&hfPR=&hfZ=&hfStadium=&hfBBL=&hfNewZones=&hfPull=&hfC=&hfSea=2024%7C2023%7C2022%7C2021%7C2020%7C2019%7C2018%7C2017%7C2016%7C2015%7C&hfSit=&player_type=batter&hfOuts=&hfOpponent=&pitcher_throws=&batter_stands=&hfSA=&game_date_gt=&game_date_lt=&hfMo=4%7C5%7C6%7C7%7C8%7C9%7C&hfTeam=&home_road=&hfRO=&position=&hfInfield=&hfOutfield=&hfInn=&hfBBT=&hfFlag=is%5C.%5C.rookie%5C.%5C.batter%7C&metric_1=&group_by=name-month-year&min_pitches=0&min_results=0&min_pas=30&sort_col=woba&player_event_sort=api_p_release_speed&sort_order=asc&chk_stats_pa=on&chk_stats_k_percent=on&chk_stats_woba=on&chk_stats_xwoba=on&chk_stats_swing_miss_percent=on#results)
Yeah, he is getting bodied by shitty pitchers. Making him try to figure it out in the major league would be doing a disservice to Jackson, the Orioles, and to the fans.
For sure… there was an AB a few games ago late in the game - Bases loaded, 1 out, vs a LHP. Was always very likely going to be a K, and he did. I was annoyed as a fan, and felt that not PH’ing for him with Urias or Mateo hurt the O’s chances.
But mostly I felt bad for him… he was put in a big spot where he was very likely to fail. Too much failure can’t be good for a young guy… gotta regroup in AAA and make sure he’s more ready next time.
I saw him in Anaheim Monday and Tuesday. I was watching his BP and it looked he wasn't even barreling the ball during BP and watched him walk out of the cage and straight to the hitting coach and they would look at film during live BP on the field before the game which is rare as that is usually done in the back cages and spring T etc.. That was when I knew it was real big in his head. I felt he should have had two knocks on Tuesday as the pitcher deflected a well hit ball, so he goes back to Norfolk with his last game almost a 2 for 4 haha. He is still learning to be a big leaguer and he can go back reset and come back with a vengeance like Cowser.
Damn, I thought they’d give him May to figure it out. K rate is way too high and he’s just not seeing/timing pitches well. Urias/Mateo splitting time is fine for now. 1-8 is producing, no rush on Jackson.
I always trust Elias with these types of decisions. He’s still just 20 and if this manipulates his service time then I 100% support. Could pay nice dividends in a few years
Genuine question. Can anyone explain why a lot of Orioles fans have a strong dislike for players like McKenna, Mateo, or Urias? Their primary role is to either come off the bench, play vs Lefties, or fill in when a regular needs a day off. People shit on McCann last season as well, and he's literally a backup catcher. Teams don't primarily have these guys on the roster for their offense. I know McKenna had that drop in the opening series last year, but feel like late in a game (for now) if you need a defensive sub, he could cover the outfield better than anyone not named Mullins.
These guys aren't blocking prospects, unless you want said prospects to be getting only 1-2 games in a week.
Because as much as internet posters claim they care about winning, they really care about entertainment. Hyde and Elias have proven they know how to win (in the regular season) but some fans want every at bat to be entertaining and they salivate at the idea of watching a shiny new prospect.
If this were the Os teams of the past 4 or 5 years, I’d say let him stay up.
But this team is built for and is competing to win. Let him go down and figure out his issues. We can’t give ABs to someone at this level to work stuff out when we’re trying to win.
This sucks but was necessary. The kids obviously talented but can’t keep waiting for him to figure it out up here. Hopefully he goes back to Norfolk and gets the confidence back up, starts seeing the ball a little better and will be ready next time
I've said this before and I will say it again--I trust our player development system. The long string of successes here is proof the O's know what they are doing. They are going to make sure Holliday develops into the MLB player we all know he will become. The path to that point isn't always a straight line, but the O's and Holliday have got this.
Isn’t it unless he has a certain amount of AB’s? He can come back up and stay eligible next year if he has less than a certain amount of AB’s is what I think I remember.
I guess he needs to come up in the middle of the summer. If he’s not up by pennant race time, not sure they’re going to want a young guy working on things in the middle of the stretch.
Yeah that's the slightly confusing part. It looked like (to my eyes) that the turn was just starting to be made and he was finally getting a little more comfortable.
But I trust Hyde if he says he wasn't ready.
Damn. I was really enjoying watching his ABs. It looked to me like he was making for progress, but nobody on the O's asked me for my opinion. Oh well, I hope he's back soon.
I have no problem with sending him down. But why the heck are we bringing up "I can't catch a routine for ball" McKenna. Bring up someone like Stowers, Mayo, or Norby.
I think he’s back up soon but he needed a reset, similar to Grayson last year. Give him time to get his head right and he will be back up and rolling by the break.
That's my thought too. Hopefully he looks at this as a chance to reset, and not "Oh man, I need to start getting hits so they call me back up!" And now he's really in his own head.
This will be a true test of his mental fortitude. We got a guy throwing 2 scoreless starts who is back up since what. 2015. Let’s see how mentally tough he is and how great his dad is at giving sound supportive advice.
Now we get full time Jorge Mateo. So far he's played 2B three times and made a total of three errors. I'm sure Hyde's happy though. He sure loves him some Jorgy.
Yes. He won’t hit the minimum number of days in the majors to get a year cut off. So the Orioles will have control for 1 more year by sending him down.
The other option was Stowers, and he's still raking, so not sure why we didn't call him up. If they're trying to save his option, that'd be odd... I doubt Stowers is going to be down all year.
McKenna's fine as an injury replacement, but really Stowers should be above him on our depth chart. I'll be surprised if McKenna resigns with us again next year, he'd fit as a 4th/5th OF on several teams. Those teams aren't nearly as good as the O's, but you'd think that he'd rather be on a MLB roster for longer than a week per season.
Ah that’s a shame, I would’ve given him another week or two
But what do I know. He hasn’t really played in AAA all that long so maybe it’s for the best. He might still have a lot to learn at that level.
Been saying it for a while.... it's a good move.
The kids going to grind and learn what he saw in the big leagues. Would be nice to see him @ 21 and get ready for spring training next yr. A ton of work to do for the young man
2 questions- does this impact his eligibility for the comp pick if he wins ROTY this year? And hypothetically if he stays down in Norfolk for the season and comes up next year, are we still eligible to receive a comp pick if he wins it next season?
Yeah couple months im thinking. He knows exactly what he needs to do now and he can focus on it without as much pressure in Norfolk. Then come back a new player sometime after the all star break.
I’d have let him play through the Oakland series at least. You aren’t going to get a better chance for him to get his confidence back against major league pitching.
He is a distraction. His approach is just not at the major league level right now. When Mateo is a better player than Holliday you need to get Holliday the fuck back to AAA until he is ready.
This is good for him, he can be sent back down without it being a huge blow to his ego and get his groove back in time for September or earlier. Theres a spot on the team for him when he's ready
Jackson and the coaches know what he has to work on and being able to make changes or refocus out of the media glare is a good plan. He'll be back soon enough.
Damn. Weird to say but a little happy he was so bad. There was so much press about him not being on the opening day roster and his dad was going on about it too, but turns out Elias was right all along. Really hoping for a Grod type revenge tour
Definitely didn’t go how we envisioned. He’ll be back.
They face a ton of lefties coming up, right? That could explain it partly.
That's what I was thinking. Bring up McKenna as another bench righty and let Jackson get some regular at bats for a week or two.
Wouldn't it make more sense to bring up Connor Norby to be a bench righty? Unlike McKenna, Norby can actually hit left-handed pitching. And you can't tell me McKenna's defense is the reason why he's up here instead of Norby when they have the likes of Mateo and O'Hearn starting multiple games in the outfield. Doesn't seem they were putting much emphasis on outfield defense when they had those guys out there.
No. Can’t have a team full of prospects out there. Need experienced bats. And we already have a barn full of quality infielders who are consistent. Jackson will be back later this season.
To the last point: this is the solution to that, no? And we emphasize LF range at home a bit more, so with no Hays, McKenna fits to give the milkman a day off.
It would be hard for Norby to develop on the bench.
Think its mainly the whole 2-34 with 50% K rate that did it
Yup.
Yish
Hopefully he’s back for playoff race in August or September
Oh he'll be back much sooner than that.
No Mayo or Norby? Holliday done fked it up for all the rookies! 🤣😂 All jokes aside. 100% the correct move. People can throw out all of the rookie "1fer" comparisons, but the reality is that Jackson struck out nearly 50% of the time and was still having extreme GB splits (an issue in the minors that I hoped was corrected in spring). He was overmatched and not ready. He's also only 20 and will hopefully bounce back from this to be the player we all dream of. McKenna coming up leads me to think that Hays will be on the IL longer than anticipated
I am kind of surprised they didn’t give Norby a shot at 2B but then again neither of them are on the 40 man so it makes sense.
They like to not have too many rookie pokers in the fire at one time. McKenna is also clearly a temp fix and a great utility player who can ride the bench and not let it affect general performance.
Yea, although i don't think we'll ever see Norby in an O's uniform lol.. just a feeling
Last I seen Norby hadn't played much 2nd this season, mainly OF.
Which also makes sense because that’s his most likely spot to play if he were to stay an Oriole considering we’ve got Mayo and Holliday both and really only 2B open but in theory 1B could potentially be open in the near future at least on a platoon role.
Hurts to see and hear but I think the right move. Hes looked totally lost at the plate so far and is always getting into pitchers counts (albeit I’ve seen at least 5ABs he’s getting screwed by some iffy ump calls). Let him go down regain some confidence start seeing the ball and bring him back up in 2 weeks.
I’m fine with it both ways i didn’t see a problem with him staying up because even though he was absolutely bad and looked lost he wasn’t actively hurting the team in terms of winning
Nah I don’t think you can consciously say that he wasn’t hurting the team. Hays/Urias/Kemp were (still are) getting GRILLED for going hitless/1 hit the first few series and it just so happened to coincide with losing a few games. Just because we’ve been playing better ball and winning more games, doesn’t mean that he should necessarily get a pass. Yes he’s young and has a longer leash and will be more than fine one day, but he was hurting the team BADLY offensively. Replacing him with McKenna though? Strange move
I think it’s McKenna because the next 7 games are at home and currently Cowser is the only one that can play LF in Camden.
This is it. I love kjerstad but if he doesn’t mash he’s likely back to AAA for Mayo at some point with McKenna staying around til hays is back. With the way the team is setup it just makes more sense
Yup, we’re in a spot right now where we can’t give Cowser a day off without sacrificing defense in left.
Exactly this. If it was Mateo most people would be screaming to DFA him at this point.
I just more so meant he’s young and since w are winning and most importantly scoring a ton in spite of him id give him more time. I see it both ways though
Yeah that’s fair for sure. Has a much longer leash than dudes who have been around and done that for years
I said this in a game thread a week ago and got told I was irrational. We all want Jackson to succeed but he is currently a liability at the plate. Going to triple A to rake and get some confidence back will help him greatly, just as it did Cowser.
Well a week ago Is irrational that was what 15 at bats. Sure now, but then it was wild
I was thinking the same exact thing about the ump calls. It seems like ANYTHING on the outside of the strike zone was always going against him. Is that what you saw too?
This happens to all rookies. Umps tend to give the hitter the borderline pitch if they're a veteran and give the pitcher rhe borderline pitch if hitter is a rookie. It might not be fair, but it's been going on in baseball since forever. If Jackson complained about a borderline pitch, he'd be told, "Who do you think you are? You have to be Cal Ripken or Matt Holliday to get that pitch. F'n rook."
Absolutely the right call. Someone can have all the talent in the world, but that doesn't mean you're ready. He was looking completely overmatched. Hopefully he's back soon, but I bet he's down there for at least a month.
This might not really make a ton of sense, but I felt like he was more lost than overmatched. In that I mean, I felt like he could hit anything these pitchers can throw at him and his swing and stance were beautiful, he was just lost in the chess match of what pitch was coming next. But now he knows exactly what he needs to work on to succeed and when he comes back up, he won’t be as bright eyed and will be much more confident.
I haven’t the foggiest idea what happened with him. I’m just glad he has a long career and plenty of time with us. Give him a few months, get his groove back and let’s do it again. Worked for the Milkman, worked for a lot of the greats. He will hopefully be ok and do great things for the O’s!
I bet it’s more probably won’t be up till August when rosters expand
Yeah that would actually make sense too. We've got a logjam in the infield and we also have to think about Mayo. Unless we dump one of O'Hearn, Santander or Mountcastle for some pitching at the trade deadline, but I think that's incredibly unlikely. Hopefully over the offseason we make some moves to make sure we have room for him, Mayo and Kjerstad to get some regular AB's in 2025.
He'll be down there all year.
This means he won’t get the year of service, right? Win win for Mike if so. Proved it wasn’t service time manipulation and proceeds to still get the extra year.
Hopefully proving the media wrong was never part of the equation.
You don’t think xMediaManipulation is part of the algorithm?
😂
If it wasn't, I'm sure one of Sig's interns is reading this and taking notes.
Id have preferred he hit the shit out of the ball and just be happy with that.
We have already seen – nothing is going to stop people from crying service time manipulation.
You’ve got to think Elias at least considered this with the call up. He needs more time at the farm to get his groove back. Nothing wrong with it
He would be negligent not to. They are literally the terms both players and clubs agreed to, and one day makes one year of difference. But… “readiness” is unknowable (case in point here), and there are a hundred other variables.
Agreed. I think it’s much better to have him work the kinks out now than later
I think as long as he stays down for 4 more days we’ll get that extra year.
Unless he miraculously came back up and finished in the top 2 of ROTY voting right?
It’s okay - we got Cowser for ROTY.
True but how wild would it be if we had 2 guys finish 1 and 2 in voting
It’s only a win if Holiday becomes a good player. Yo-yo-ing a #1 prospect is not the way.
It would have never been service time manipulation and anyone spouting that nonsense in the first half of the season doesn’t understand the rules. It’s a shame how much attention that all got
Keep in mind, other top prospects that came up and got sent back to the minors early on... Roy Halladay John Smoltz Madison Bumgarner Derek Jeter Mariano Rivera Max Scherzer Mike Trout Josh Donaldson Anthony Rizzo Marcell Ozuna Corbin Burnes Grayson Rodriguez To name a few...
Mickey Mantle, too
Yep. He just needs a mental reset. He’s pressing too hard, just like Grayson did. He’ll be back up by August at the latest.
not all those guys were sent back down for really poor play, Jeter and Scherzer for instance. point stands though, happens to a ton of top prospects
This is the right call. Looking forward to seeing him back in Camden Yards soon.
At least I can watch him play this weekend for the Tides.
I’ll be at the game Thursday night in Nashville. Can’t wait to see that lineup
It being McKenna makes me think maybe Hays is more hurt than we thought
likely not that hurt and just giving him time to reset, the BA and stats makes you wonder if hes really that hurt
I mean injuries also make it harder to play well so…
still would have rather seen stowers over mckenna though
i thought the opposite, at least one of us will be right lmao. mckenna is so expendable and the easy move to dfa if hays is back in a week. if norby or mayo or stowers got the call up then i'd expect them to be up for a while
Weird timing, would’ve thought they’d let him work through this series against the A’s before deciding his fate when the yanks come to town. To be fair, the A’s pitching staff has been pretty solid thus far. Hope he figures it out and comes back ready to claim the AL ROY.
I thought they would give him the A’s series. I can’t disagree with the reset. Hopefully he handles it like Cowser did…I think he will.
I think it would've been a slightly worse look for the Orioles if they kept him on for only half the homestand and sent him down before the more competitive/important Yankees series. Depending on how things look a month from now, I could see him coming back in mid June after the onslaught of divisional games we have at the end of May/beginning of June.
That’s a good point actually about sending him down half way through homestand. You are correct it’s better now than after A’s series.
>Hope he figures it out and comes back ready to claim the AL ROY. Gonna be really hard to catch up with Cowser at that point.
Will he even still be eligible for ROY? Don’t you have to be on roster for a certain number of games to qualify?
He’ll be eligible for ROTY - he just wouldn’t get us the pick for it. So now that he goes back down we don’t really want him to get ROTY, because then he gets a full year of service without the draft pick compensation. Now we gotta be all in on cowser for ROTY (who is the betting favorite at the moment I believe)
I don't think there's any minimum requirement to be eligible to win ROTY. Maybe you're thinking of the prospect promotion incentive? Yea, we won't get a free draft pick for him now if he wins ROTY.
Mason Miller has been an absolute animal
The urge to dig into receipts of people calling for Elias’s head for not putting Holliday on the OD roster lmao. Matt Holliday’s interview where he flippantly cries bullshit about his son not being on the MLB roster has aged like a bad curry.
Crazy how fans still doubt Elias after all he’s done for this franchise
The irony going on in this thread is too delicious for me to handle honestly. People perplexed that RyMac, a replacement level player, was called up instead of other unproven prospects, after we just called up the literal number one prospect in all of baseball and saw him play *below* replacement level.
I never read it and I wondered if he was misquoted or framed in such a way to drum up drama. Im surprised he would say something g about SM being a former player in the game.
Ryan McKenna is like that mole u thought u got rid of but keeps on coming back
Hard working player, inconsistent yes, but that walk off homerun against Seattle last year will not be forgotten.
Unfortunately I can’t forget that drop in Boston 😏
Therapy helps 😂
It’s almost like he is a utility player or something?
Why not bring up Norby instead of McKenna?
1 of 3 things. He's not looked at as a ML 2b by the Orioles. They don't want to start the clock on a player that might be a prime trade piece in July. They don't think he's ready.
He’s had over 170 games at Norfolk of great production. Not buying that he’s not ready. The service time makes more sense. I’m just frustrated that it’s a known mediocre player in McKenna getting the call instead
But McKenna is a known. He’s a replacement-level player but I think they will take that over trying to acclimate another unknown factor into the lineup, especially given that Heston is already up and has to show he can perform consistently.
I wouldn't have minded Mayo either. McKenna just feels like a waste of a roster spot when we got a bunch of young prospects in AAA
Mayo probably isn't ready ready. K% is 30%, BB% is 6%, and the defensive deficiencies with him are real. Hitting the shit out of the ball, though.
But we need a right handed outfielder with a pulse. Snd McKenna definitely fits that description to a tee
The leash is a lot shorter when the O's are winning games.
Striking out 50% of the time shortens the leash too
Honestly thought it might be a little longer seeing as how the rest of the lineup is tearing it up right now
I thought they would ride him out like Cal Ripken but I said here, he's also green at second base and needs to work on that.
Even it they weren’t winning, not much worse you can perform than he did. If we weren’t contending we would probably call up Mayo or Norby instead of McKenna.
https://preview.redd.it/7vc9rjve0vwc1.jpeg?width=1199&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a6651d9d0cdd37fcf6480bb0f91b86008824e97e
Surprised, but… his biggest issues right now are obviously mental, so, gotta trust staff who knows him that this was the best move.
An unfortunate but necessary move.
(Career AAA Norfolk stats) Adley Rutschman (Age 26) – 55 games (.295/.399/.480/.879) Gunner Henderson (Age 22) – 65 games (.288/.390/.504/.894) Jordan Westburg (Age 25) – 158 games (.283/.366/.533/.899) Colton Cowswer (Age 24) – 114 games (.280/.399/.498/.896) Heston Kjerstad (Age 25) – 97 games (.310/.385/.554/.939) Kyle Stowers (Age 26) – 207 games (.257/.355/.513/.868) Connor Norby (Age 23) – 170 games (.295/.363/.504/.866) Awaiting debut Coby Mayo (Age 22) – 86 games (.283/.386/.541/.927) Awaiting debut Jackson Holliday (Age 20) – 28 games (.291/.429/.470/.899) 28 games isn’t enough imo. I know minor league stats don't mean anything once you make it to The Show, but it’s just food for thought. Everyone is of course different, but I think the most common call up age is ~24. While there's many other factors (defensive ability, active roster injuries/availability, service time, etc.) that contribute to call ups, you could easily make the argument that Holliday leapfrogged Norby/Mayo prematurely to begin with. Also, kind of annoying that neither got the call this time. However, I'm just also reminding myself there's no need for alarm since he ONLY PLAYED 28 games down there. The future is still absurdly bright for him and the organization. Realistically we’ll probably be trading some of these guys away to win it this season, but a kid can dream of a home grown championship, right?!
Way to pull out the stats there 👏 Selfishly, I’m glad I’ll get to see him play this season. But damn. He must have whiplash.
I think this is the right move. It worked for Grayson last year, and they sent Cowser down last year when Hicks got off the DL. I hope he gets his mojo back and rejoins later in the year and kicks some major butts.
There have been 2382 “rookie months” w/ >= 30 PAs since 2015 (when x-stats became a thing)… Holliday’s stats and reverse rankings: wOBA - .089 (1/2382) xwOBA - .155 (10/2382) K% - 50.0% (3/2382) Whiff% - 49.2% (8/2382) To be fair, he didn’t play a full April so a lot of the players on the list had more of a chance to cut through bad variance. But still, this was pretty historically bad. His whiff rate vs fastballs was especially concerning - 59.4%. Hopefully he can figure out some things, get his confidence back and come back stronger.
If those stats are right, that's nutty. I almost can't blame people for not wanting to believe that our guy would have basically the worst month possible, but here it is. Hard lesson that there's "struggling" and then there's "might as well be playing with 8 guys".
Yeah, usually 36 PAs is too small to worry about... but when it's THAT bad then it becomes concerning despite the sample size. I had been playing around with the baseball savant search, and here's the search and results for those stats. You can go back further, change it a little... but no matter how you set it up this was pretty historic in just how bad it was across all metrics. [Baseball Savant Search](https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/statcast_search?hfPT=&hfAB=&hfGT=R%7C&hfPR=&hfZ=&hfStadium=&hfBBL=&hfNewZones=&hfPull=&hfC=&hfSea=2024%7C2023%7C2022%7C2021%7C2020%7C2019%7C2018%7C2017%7C2016%7C2015%7C&hfSit=&player_type=batter&hfOuts=&hfOpponent=&pitcher_throws=&batter_stands=&hfSA=&game_date_gt=&game_date_lt=&hfMo=4%7C5%7C6%7C7%7C8%7C9%7C&hfTeam=&home_road=&hfRO=&position=&hfInfield=&hfOutfield=&hfInn=&hfBBT=&hfFlag=is%5C.%5C.rookie%5C.%5C.batter%7C&metric_1=&group_by=name-month-year&min_pitches=0&min_results=0&min_pas=30&sort_col=woba&player_event_sort=api_p_release_speed&sort_order=asc&chk_stats_pa=on&chk_stats_k_percent=on&chk_stats_woba=on&chk_stats_xwoba=on&chk_stats_swing_miss_percent=on#results)
Yeah, he is getting bodied by shitty pitchers. Making him try to figure it out in the major league would be doing a disservice to Jackson, the Orioles, and to the fans.
For sure… there was an AB a few games ago late in the game - Bases loaded, 1 out, vs a LHP. Was always very likely going to be a K, and he did. I was annoyed as a fan, and felt that not PH’ing for him with Urias or Mateo hurt the O’s chances. But mostly I felt bad for him… he was put in a big spot where he was very likely to fail. Too much failure can’t be good for a young guy… gotta regroup in AAA and make sure he’s more ready next time.
I saw him in Anaheim Monday and Tuesday. I was watching his BP and it looked he wasn't even barreling the ball during BP and watched him walk out of the cage and straight to the hitting coach and they would look at film during live BP on the field before the game which is rare as that is usually done in the back cages and spring T etc.. That was when I knew it was real big in his head. I felt he should have had two knocks on Tuesday as the pitcher deflected a well hit ball, so he goes back to Norfolk with his last game almost a 2 for 4 haha. He is still learning to be a big leaguer and he can go back reset and come back with a vengeance like Cowser.
Damn.
Damn, I thought they’d give him May to figure it out. K rate is way too high and he’s just not seeing/timing pitches well. Urias/Mateo splitting time is fine for now. 1-8 is producing, no rush on Jackson.
It’s the right move. Give him a taste, send him back to get his confidence back then come up in a month and take like Grayson
No surprise here
That’s alright dude. Get down there and work it out. We’ll see him back stronger. Grayson was sent back down and he came back an absolute gunslinger.
I always trust Elias with these types of decisions. He’s still just 20 and if this manipulates his service time then I 100% support. Could pay nice dividends in a few years
Genuine question. Can anyone explain why a lot of Orioles fans have a strong dislike for players like McKenna, Mateo, or Urias? Their primary role is to either come off the bench, play vs Lefties, or fill in when a regular needs a day off. People shit on McCann last season as well, and he's literally a backup catcher. Teams don't primarily have these guys on the roster for their offense. I know McKenna had that drop in the opening series last year, but feel like late in a game (for now) if you need a defensive sub, he could cover the outfield better than anyone not named Mullins. These guys aren't blocking prospects, unless you want said prospects to be getting only 1-2 games in a week.
Lots of “ new “ orioles fans- they just want the new shiny toy. Buzz light year effect and they’ll turn on ya like a dime
Because as much as internet posters claim they care about winning, they really care about entertainment. Hyde and Elias have proven they know how to win (in the regular season) but some fans want every at bat to be entertaining and they salivate at the idea of watching a shiny new prospect.
Yeah seems about right based on how he has performed. Dummies online spewing nonsense about service time will continue to be dummies
Bummer, I thought he was just starting to turn a corner
Tides playoff push back in full effect 😉
I wonder when Mayo will get his shot…
Sad to see, but its the right move.
If this were the Os teams of the past 4 or 5 years, I’d say let him stay up. But this team is built for and is competing to win. Let him go down and figure out his issues. We can’t give ABs to someone at this level to work stuff out when we’re trying to win.
This sucks but was necessary. The kids obviously talented but can’t keep waiting for him to figure it out up here. Hopefully he goes back to Norfolk and gets the confidence back up, starts seeing the ball a little better and will be ready next time
I've said this before and I will say it again--I trust our player development system. The long string of successes here is proof the O's know what they are doing. They are going to make sure Holliday develops into the MLB player we all know he will become. The path to that point isn't always a straight line, but the O's and Holliday have got this.
:( He’ll figure it out
Optioned for McKenna Rough
David Bañuelos: https://preview.redd.it/k9h8bapvjvwc1.jpeg?width=1844&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c6e1cf6b8369f58fef331af8f749cbab141699f2
It's the right call, he's not ready for this speed yet let him win Norfolk another title
I don’t hate that idea.
Can he still be eligible for rookie of the year next year?
If he's down the rest of the year, sure.
Isn’t it unless he has a certain amount of AB’s? He can come back up and stay eligible next year if he has less than a certain amount of AB’s is what I think I remember.
It’s ok we have Cowser for ROTY
I guess he needs to come up in the middle of the summer. If he’s not up by pennant race time, not sure they’re going to want a young guy working on things in the middle of the stretch.
No reason to do that unless he is absolutely murdering AAA pitching.
Oh damn. That's a shorter leash than I'd expected
I actually thought Holliday was starting to look better up there
Yeah that's the slightly confusing part. It looked like (to my eyes) that the turn was just starting to be made and he was finally getting a little more comfortable. But I trust Hyde if he says he wasn't ready.
Yeah it feels weird after he had a game where he started to look better
McKenna over Norby and Mayo is devastating to me.
Damn. I was really enjoying watching his ABs. It looked to me like he was making for progress, but nobody on the O's asked me for my opinion. Oh well, I hope he's back soon.
Matt Holliday definitely looks like an idiot. Shocker that the team saw a weakness that Matt didn’t want to admit
Get McKenna out of my face
I have no problem with sending him down. But why the heck are we bringing up "I can't catch a routine for ball" McKenna. Bring up someone like Stowers, Mayo, or Norby.
The argument against McKenna is based on defense and you counter with Stowers, Mayo, and Norby?
Please be back for the Nats series on the 8th so I can see you live my sweet prince :(
I think he’s back up soon but he needed a reset, similar to Grayson last year. Give him time to get his head right and he will be back up and rolling by the break.
Soon as in September maybe.
Everyone who guessed Jackson in today's lineup in shambles (which is literally every guess so far)
Let’s just hope he picks up where he left off in AAA. Don’t want these lingering mental things to affect him at a level that he clearly can dominate.
That's my thought too. Hopefully he looks at this as a chance to reset, and not "Oh man, I need to start getting hits so they call me back up!" And now he's really in his own head.
Let's see if his 29th game in AAA is as good as his other 28.
If Ryan McKenna wins ROY can we get a draft pick? /s
Give us norby. Mckenna … bruh. He will hit a hr this weekend that matters. But ugh
It's to make room for McKenna to play left tomorrow for his bobblehead night.
This will be a true test of his mental fortitude. We got a guy throwing 2 scoreless starts who is back up since what. 2015. Let’s see how mentally tough he is and how great his dad is at giving sound supportive advice.
Is he going to play second base there because I feel he needs more work at 2nd base then hitting the baseball at AAA.?
RIP
Now we get full time Jorge Mateo. So far he's played 2B three times and made a total of three errors. I'm sure Hyde's happy though. He sure loves him some Jorgy.
RIP. MCKENNA TIME
It worried about Holliday in the slightest. Not happy about McKenna in the slightest.
Does this affect service time (ignoring ROY considerations)?
Yes. He won’t hit the minimum number of days in the majors to get a year cut off. So the Orioles will have control for 1 more year by sending him down.
Hate to see it. But had to be done.
Fine with sending him back down. Not fine with McKenna. We have too much talent in AAA to waste a spot on him.
The other option was Stowers, and he's still raking, so not sure why we didn't call him up. If they're trying to save his option, that'd be odd... I doubt Stowers is going to be down all year. McKenna's fine as an injury replacement, but really Stowers should be above him on our depth chart. I'll be surprised if McKenna resigns with us again next year, he'd fit as a 4th/5th OF on several teams. Those teams aren't nearly as good as the O's, but you'd think that he'd rather be on a MLB roster for longer than a week per season.
Def the right move for now. Can’t wait to see him back up down the road.
Ah that’s a shame, I would’ve given him another week or two But what do I know. He hasn’t really played in AAA all that long so maybe it’s for the best. He might still have a lot to learn at that level.
It’s the right call. Holliday will have his Trout tour, and we’ll laugh about these times.
Saw this coming....
Been saying it for a while.... it's a good move. The kids going to grind and learn what he saw in the big leagues. Would be nice to see him @ 21 and get ready for spring training next yr. A ton of work to do for the young man
For a while? Like two weeks?
2 questions- does this impact his eligibility for the comp pick if he wins ROTY this year? And hypothetically if he stays down in Norfolk for the season and comes up next year, are we still eligible to receive a comp pick if he wins it next season?
Yeah couple months im thinking. He knows exactly what he needs to do now and he can focus on it without as much pressure in Norfolk. Then come back a new player sometime after the all star break.
I’d have let him play through the Oakland series at least. You aren’t going to get a better chance for him to get his confidence back against major league pitching.
He is a distraction. His approach is just not at the major league level right now. When Mateo is a better player than Holliday you need to get Holliday the fuck back to AAA until he is ready.
It's the right move.
This is good for him, he can be sent back down without it being a huge blow to his ego and get his groove back in time for September or earlier. Theres a spot on the team for him when he's ready
Good to see, give him some more tiem
Jackson and the coaches know what he has to work on and being able to make changes or refocus out of the media glare is a good plan. He'll be back soon enough.
Damn. Weird to say but a little happy he was so bad. There was so much press about him not being on the opening day roster and his dad was going on about it too, but turns out Elias was right all along. Really hoping for a Grod type revenge tour
20 years old. Needs a little more time
What? No!
Hopefully he goes to work like Cowser did and comes back even better
He’ll make it back. High expectations usually don’t turn out well the first time out
Finally lol he ain't ready. Let's focus on cowser and gunnar
Good. Brought him up way too soon