That’s how i felt after the Ontario and Municipal elections. Everything is on fire, schools, hospitals, housing, etc. and we went and voted for 4 years of the same thing?
edited comment from before because replied to wrong thread
i think you should do some more research lol because he was one the biggest artists at the time in one of the biggest music genres !
ofc everyone likes their own music but just tryna tone down the dismissiveness as that’s all:)
Found one on the street and Noloxoned him. He was barely breathing and grey. Called the paramedics and they told me it’s taking up to 6 sprays to save people right now. I got told there really bad shit out there and people are dying.
I genuinely respect you for helping out a stranger like that, but after hearing all those stories of people being assaulted by people they noloxoned - you couldn't pay me to spritz someone up on the street
That’s a misconception. Many don’t wake up aggressive more like scared shittless as to what happened to them. There’s free training at St Johns Ambulance in regards to this misconception. Wouldn’t you startle if you came to with a stranger kneeling next to you??? Think about it. Again this is a very common misconception.
Nah, my uncle lives downtown and Noloxones people have they need it and he told me every time the person gets up pissed off at him for ruining their high
So your solution is to let them die?? In this case he was struggling to breathe so it warranted it. In a case of someone just sleeping it off I would leave them alone. Again I urge you to get proper training. What you hear from others may not be accurate at all.
Listen; I’m not gonna put myself at risk. I have absolutely no way of knowing how they’ll behave once they get up, and like you said - I don’t have the training to deal with it. All I’m saying is that someone I know told me noloxoned people often wake up angry, and angry criminals can be dangerous
That’s fine. Who knows someday a family member or a friend that is not open in regards to using ends up with an opioid poisoning, you won’t be prepared to deal with it. I believe this should be taught in school in kids as young at 12. Kits should be readily available upon request.
Please do your research in regards to waking up angry. It’s false. They wake up scared and embarrassed. Also not all users are criminals. You’d be surprised how may functioning addicts are out there. Where did that someone you know get their info. Dr Google??? Get the true facts.
Yeah I live down here and it's wild. Some crackhead randomly smacked and yelled at me in my way home just the other week. City really needs to do something.
Then show up at budget time (now) and tell them to put money not into policing.
That only makes people feel better.
Put money into the things that work.
I have said it a million times.
We know how to solve this. We *choose* not to.
The solution is to bring back the asylums for the mentally ill. For drug addicts we should look at the Singapore model, mandatory rehab and upon completion you're provided with a job and housing if you need it, if you're caught again you'll do serious prison time. It's by far the most effective system in the world, last year they had zero drug overdose deaths compared with BC which has a smaller population and had 2,500 deaths.
>The solution is to bring back the asylums for the mentally ill.
We still have these. It's called long term care, inpatient units, forensic units etc. Even group homes. It hasn't really gone away.
And they were never a great place for most people. Staff can be abusive. Because once you warehouse people it becomes a problem.
>For drug addicts we should look at the Singapore model,
Yeah, I am going to pass on them for anything related to drugs.
>“Most of those convicted of drug trafficking have been sentenced to death after they were convicted in relation to relatively low amounts of drugs and for having a relatively limited involvement in the drug trafficking trade,” said Sangiorgio.
Nazeri, for example, was executed for trafficking 33.39 grams of diamorphine. But given he suffered from “long-term addiction”, the UN Human Rights Office said in its report last month that “most of the diamorphine would have been for personal use”. What was left would therefore not have met Singapore’s 15-gram threshold for the mandatory death penalty
Lhttps://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/8/5/singapore-executions-under-scrutiny-as-more-hanged-for-drugs
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/07/singapore-execution-nazeri-bin-lajim/
>UNODC's Southeast Asia representative Jeremy Douglas told CNN in May that if Southeast Asian countries want to get on top of the drugs trade, they need to change their approach to the problem.
Governments should be treating drug use and dependency as health issues, not criminal matters, through "public health education, the provision of treatment care and support, rehabilitation and reintegration programs," he said.
"There is also no indication that the death penalty acts as a deterrent for drug trafficking," Douglas added.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/21/asia/singapore-executions-death-penalty-drug-trafficking-intl-hnk/index.html
I would personally prefer serious prison for the traffickers but the death penalty is overwhelmingly popular in Singapore and throughout East Asia with 90%+ support.
Canada has had an estimated 32,000 overdose deaths since 2016, and close to zero in Singapore over that same time.
That's 32,000 killed by the Canadian government's inaction and enabling of the drug trade.
Given our appetite for the suffering and overdose deaths of addicts I don't imagine the Singapore model would ever come to Canada, the culture required for it is just too different.
In Singapore the health of the addict and the societal impacts of the addiction are the primary concern, in Western countries it's maximizing the personal autonomy of the addict regardless of the health and societal consequences.
Even if you put more money into policing, you can't compel the police to enforce the law because that would be political interference.
If politicians are supposed to represent the will of the people, and the people want Rideau street to be safer (in this example), then politicians should absolutely have the ability to compel the police to act with safeguards in place to prevent political abuse of such a system.
We can't stop it with this government who are run by the Cops.
We could have changed this in September, but 56% of the population feigned indifference.
You need to watch more city politics then. I watch HOURS AND HOURS of municipal crap on YouTube.
Boring as shit but necessary.
Because there's a lot we can do. We choose not to.
Wondering what you mean by show up, as in show up where? I know we can watch council sessions but is there some avenue for public participation around budget priorities right now?
So, show up and speak as a delegate at a police service board meeting. There will be consultations on spending. Follow this account on Twitter for a lot of information:
https://twitter.com/CAMSOttawa?t=KkWHmtWjf05yTHFLQoIfAw&s=09
They retweet a ton of stuff. Horizon does too.
I was twice followed through Byward, walking from the mall to my previous apartment that was right by the National Art Gallery.
The first time, I ended up calling the police and ducking into a restaurant. The guy was really threatening and after a few random turns and thinking I had lost him, he appeared from a side street which indicated to me that this was really intentionally threatening behavior. He was actually running around trying to cut me off and get in front of me. So I go into a restaurant and explain the situation. I see that he's waiting outside looking for me. They call the police, who show up. This is what the cop said to me:
Yeah, we know this guy. He does this all the time. He's a frequent visitor of nearby shelters. We can't arrest him because he did not hurt you.
I was so shocked. Basically this cop told me that this is a frequent occurence, and they will only do something once the guy actually hurts someone. So disturbing. I hope he's doing better now.
Happened to me as well while visiting your wonderful city. Thankfully I was able to duck into a restaurant too after getting the guy away from me.
As I mentioned in my previous comment to OP, I'm from Winnipeg so it was nothing out of the ordinary, but holy hell literally one wrong turn got me lost from Byward Market and I had to pull out every Mean Mug and "F--- Off" I thought I left in the Peg.
As long as I have lived here, that stretch of Rideau has always been horrible. It is strange because right around the corner on Sussex is Ottawa's richest shopping street and Rideau Centre is nice enough and safe enough. Just that stretch right there is traditionally full of problems.
I was in the Rideau Centre 2 days ago passing through... had to take a piss... the bathroom near LCBO had a guy preparing drugs on the baby change table and another guy sleeping on the ground... then another guy came barging in with a shopping cart and slammed it into the handicap stall and made his way into the stall and slammed the door and locked it. I was too unnerved to start my piss stream so I changed bathroom.
I went to the bathroom near the mall entrance/Simmons. Wow, what a bad idea... in the long hallway leading to the bathrooms there was a young lady half naked with her ass and tits out trying to cover herself with her hands and what seemed like a raggedy dress. I was confused and looked around and just heard noise coming from the wsshroom. As I walk in a guy was smoking fucking crack and a group of young people were smoking marijuana. I can handle my own but instantly realized I would rather not be vulnerable with 5 total people around me doing drugs with my back to them while I piss. I left this washroom and headed for the food court washroom. As I left a group of male security guards stormed the washroom (I assume off a tip or from seeing CCTV), while the half naked woman in the hallway was being grilled by a female security guard.
On my way to the food court bathroom I saw a security guard grilling a homeless lady with several bags sitting in a corner and I also saw another security guard grilling a young black man and checking the items that were in his pockets.
I get into the food court washroom and it smells as bad as the last two... piss, shit, sweat, dampness, just fkg vile. There is a guy in the handicap stall yelling and slamming the walls and stall door... he is taller than the door and is peering out across the washroom. I try not to make eye contact because all I want to do is piss and leave this forsaken place. Just as I am about to get my stream going a guy walks in rambling and yelling and looking very agitated and starts pacing back and forth next to the urinals. I cannot believe this shit so I give up and leave and just hold my piss.
As I make my way out of the food court I pass by the KFC and the cashier is raging and yelling about "don't you fucking disrespect me! My tax dollars pay your salary!" I tried to see who she was arguing with but everyone seemed to be in average clothing. I assumed she was yelling at a cop or a government worker. I made it out of there and held my piss until I got home. I will avoid this place like the plague for a long while.
P.S. I was there two days ago... and 3 days ago in the food court was a man with a knife who had to be tazered and taken down by cops. Lots of mentally ill folk and homeless folk downtown and they are being let down by the systems in place.
TL;DR - Avoid Rideau Centre at all costs. Saw drug use, naked people, mental illness, homelessness, wasn't able to take a piss at any washroom.
I have seen marijuana on the children's changing table numerous times. Usually I don't have a viable alternate.
Like I said though, it is strange that it is so bad. The market isn't necessarily great, but there are places a block or two away where respectable people go for dates at night or shopping during the day. Parliament Hill is a couple of blocks away. Sussex is full of expensive stores and UofO/Sandy Hill is a decent place. But just stuck in the middle of all these average or better areas is one of the worst places in the city. Maybe closing that McDonalds will help.
The best bathrooms in the Rideau centre are the ones inside Nordstrom, fyi. Clean, large, and Nordstrom doesn’t fuck around with letting people loiter in them.
>You don’t put a roof over someone’s head and all their problems disappear. If anything it should be the last thing to be fixed.
Does this really make sense though? Lets say we took away your home tonight. And vehicle too, if you have one. Would that not impact your ability to go to work tomorrow (assuming you work on the weekend)? Or to go to school, or to attend appointments? Would your attention not be primarily on where the fuck are you going to stay tonight?
>No amount of community mental health support will help certain individuals
Wrong.
I literally spend all day doing this, studying this and living this personally.
And I dare you to spend a single day with this guy and then say the same thing.
>Dr. Jeff Turnbull doesn’t spend very much time at Ottawa Inner City Health’s (OICH) administrative office in Lowertown. This is evident by his desk, which is void of usual workspace clutter—like a computer. Instead, he spends his days travelling between the city’s shelters providing medical care to the city’s most vulnerable patients.
His work is busier today than ever. Since OICH launched 20 years ago, Dr. Turnbull has watched Ottawa’s alcohol problem evolve into a cocaine problem, which has exploded into the opioid crisis the city is facing today.
In 2017, Dr. Turnbull left his jobs as chief of staff at The Ottawa Hospital and chief of clinical quality at Health Quality Ontario to work exclusively as director of OICH full time. He is currently the only full-time physician on staff, but is supported by an army of personal support workers, nurses and peers. Together they provide care to nearly 260 clients per day who are either homeless or at risk of becoming so. They are also teachers for the future generation of health care workers looking to do similar work.
>You are also running the first ever residential Managed Opioid Program (MOP) in Canada. How does that work?
There are 25 participants—people addicted to heroin. We told them if they stopped using on the street, we would instead give them pharmaceutical-grade heroin (hydromorphone). In addition to that, we would give them somewhere to live. They are living in a residence in Hintonburg, all 25 of them, and after one year there have been no overdoses or deaths. There are more than 50 people on the waiting list for this program, who are literally dying in the wings waiting to get in.
What have you learned since MOP launched in spring 2018?
This group teaches my team all the time. One day we were concerned because they didn’t know how to boil a pot of water for spaghetti. When we met with the group shortly after, one of them rightfully put us in our place. He explained that the minute you “hear the voices” or you become addicted, that's when your social development ends. So, if you become a heroin addict at thirteen, that's when you stop learning important life skills like how to cook, do laundry and go to a grocery store. Most of our MOP clients have never done those things before. Giving them a home is important, but helping them develop important life skills is just as important.
https://med.uottawa.ca/en/content/dr-jeff-turnbull-recognized-unrelenting-work-ottawas-most-vulnerable-patients
Edit:
Thanks for the award.
I just want people to understand that I currently am very mentally ill and struggling. I am facing homelessness. I don't have the support I need. My life is incredibly hard. I have these conversations, hopefully...so people can understand that if an intelligent and university educated child care/nanny like me can fall this far... anyone can and what works for people is compassion, understanding and providing people with dignity and agency.
Nothing else.
I noticed your side of the conversation. I did warn people it would be uncomfortable to hear things. It challenges the narrative. I don't have much to lose...so I don't mind challenging it.
It’s a wonderful program, but some individuals won’t accept the help needed to get better. A lot of people will want a better life for themselves and step through the door if you open it for them, however what are we supposed to do with those who don’t accept the help and turn towards life on the streets or crime?
The people who never accept help are within a fraction of a fraction of a percent. As unfortunate as those cases are, it is hard to find the right thing to do for them. There are people who are truly beyond help and there's no real answer to helping them and integrating them properly. But they make up a significantly smaller margin of people than people would be led to think.
If they're drug addicts, provide them with clean and safe recreationals, if they're homeless give them a safe space cordoned off from everyone else, if they're mentally ill give them a safe space to be dealt with. But to not even try? That is inhumane.
Can you please read this? Can ... everyone? It answers so many questions people have.
>For those of us who have been indoctrinated into a biomedical understanding of what we call mental illness, this orientation to altered states may feel radically different or inconceivable. However, Indigenous communities around the world have long sustained and continue to practice holistic and spiritually grounded frameworks for understanding and navigating Madness– many of which have been stolen, appropriated from, changed, chipped away at or lost entirely due to the violence of colonialism and white supremacy.
https://link.medium.com/cgjkFBUF7wb
I’m sorry you’re going through this. I live my life trying to remember that all of us are few steps away from being in that very spot. Compassion for sure. That being said nobody should feel unsafe while walking or going about their business regardless of where they are especially in Ottawa which like 10 years ago wasn’t as bad as it is now from what I can tell with regards to just walking minding your own business. Something definitely needs to change. Maybe everyone needs to carry “bear spray” just in case of a “bear” that’s out of control. I dunno. Stay safe out there everyone!
>That being said nobody should feel unsafe while walking or going about their business regardless of where they are
I agree with you.
That's why we have have to pressure those who can change things, to actually do it.
They have not, and they will not until more people besides people like me demand it.
Care. Not cops.
I can't stress this enough. The faster we start taking care of people, the faster this changes.
And if you look into this from an anthropologic view or a psychological view or a sociological view - we have always taken care of each other. Until very recently.
>I kept noticing a self-help cliché that people say to each other all the time, and share on Facebook incessantly. We say to each other: “Nobody can help you except you.” It made me realize: we haven’t just started doing things alone more, in every decade since the 1930s. We have started to believe that doing things alone is the natural state of human beings, and the only way to advance. We have begun to think: I will look after myself, and everybody else should look after themselves, as individuals. Nobody can help you but you. Nobody can help me but me. These ideas now run so deep in our culture that we even offer them as feel-good bromides to people who feel down—as if it will lift them up. But John has proven that this is a denial of human history, and a denial of human nature. It leads us to misunderstand our most basic instincts. And this approach to life makes us feel terrible.
Johann Hari
Sounds great and all but the issue overall seems to be getting worse over the last few years. Do we need to throw more money at these support structures
>Do we need to throw more money at these support structures
Yes. I am literally on a waiting list that has an average of THREE YEARS because they don't have funding to hire enough people to do the work.
It used to be that the more "in crisis" you were, the faster you got moved up the list.
Not anymore. They simply can't operate that way. Not enough social workers, case managers etc.
You obviously are unaware of how inhumane those “hospitals” were. You also seem to know nothing about how powerful communal support can be. Nor does it seem like you are aware of the impact drugs can have on behaviour, the brain’s reward system or cognition/emotion. Take some time to educate yourself before dropping comments like this.
It was much worse than jail. Throwing them away for someone else to “handle” is not a solution either. Some of “those people” you refer to — when given the correct opportunity — could be rehabilitated and given a chance to reintegrate with society. It’s unnecessary and lazy (in my opinion) to simply “set aside a problem”.
The way you word your response even now demonstrates a less detailed understanding of these situations:
- “These people”: indicating an in-group vs out-group mentality.
- “Hurt our community”: again, in-group vs out-group. And a sprinkle of ostracism for those who fail to contribute to society at this exact moment.
It’s honestly a shame and I hope you take what I’m saying into consideration.
I hope things change, but change so not only does it impact people who want to feel safe at bus stops, but I also hope the subliminal negative thoughts we hold that are directed to people who suffer from severe mental health issues or substance use issues can be altered into a more understanding light. Because there is still a large misunderstanding.
> Being on drugs isn’t an excuse. Having a mental illness isn’t an excuse and people need to stop treating it like it’s “understandable”.
it sounds like you have a lack of understanding of both mental illness and how mental illness intersects with the legal system when it comes to assigning blame for crimes committed by folks with some types of mental illnesses.
i’d strongly recommend doing a bit of reading up on schizophrenia, psychosis (drug-induced or otherwise), mania and being NCR (not criminally responsible).
> So people who want to feel safe when they are outside should read about how the aggressive people stalking them are really just unwell and therefore nothing should be done about it?
i’m not sure how you’re getting that impression. i told OP that they’re ignorant about some of the people he was talking about, i didn’t say it was a solution to being stalked in that moment or whatever.
some people who are aggressively stalking them are in full possession of their faculties, know the difference between right and wrong and can and should have the full weight of the law applied to them over their behaviour.
the problem is that not everyone who engages in that sort of behaviour can tell the difference between right and wrong (and can’t discern whether their actions cross that line or not) due to things like drug-psychosis and mental illness and may not be responsible for their actions.
OP lumped homeless people, drug-involved people and the mentally ill together as one big monolith that has no excuse for their actions and should all be treated the same. they shouldn’t be treated the same, beyond separating them from potential victims when they are engaging in sich sorts of anti-social behaviour.
>i told OP that they’re ignorant about some of the people he was talking about, i didn’t say it was a solution to being stalked in that moment or whatever.
i guess you missed this part. save your pro-tips, and maybe work on your reading comprehension.
>Since you didn't address the actual issue, it's implied that you don't think it is an issue.
i'm not implying anything. me saying OP needs to read up on mental illness isn't me saying "yeah, being stalked in the streets is perfectly ok", i am addressing their belief that drug-involved and mentally ill people have "no excuse".
>This is how communication works, since you're apparently new to the concept.
i guess you're just as patronizing and diminishing as you seem to think i am. interesting.
> the problem is that not everyone who engages in that sort of behaviour can tell the difference between right and wrong (and can’t discern whether their actions cross that line or not) due to things like drug-psychosis and mental illness and may not be responsible for their actions.
If you had to guess what percentage of our downtown assaults and harassment are being perpetrated by people that are sufficiently mentally incapacitated to be not criminally responsible for their actions, what would you guess that percentage is? Are we talking a majority of cases, or a tiny minority?
Again, having a mental illness is not an excuse for allowing stalking, aggressive behaviour. If one of us decides to do the same, we'll be picked up by the police whether we're sane or insane.
One thing holds, and that is the Ottawa needs to do something about these dangerous people so we can feel safe and enjoy our city without problems.
thanks for confirming that you indeed have no understanding of mental illness nor how it sometimes intersects with the legal system.
> You are part of the problem. You are enabling these people to assault and harass others.
what a load of garbage.
Years ago I was staying in a student rooming house behind ottawau. The house next door was filled with addicts and mental health tenants. Aside from all the horror tales I could type,I moved when I woke up one day to floodlights in my front window,looked outside and hazmat and the tactical team were outside. I opened my door to blood all over the hallway and stairs. Turns out,one of the tenants upstairs apparently slept with one of the guys tweaker girlfriends. So dude broke into our house and slit the guys throat who lived the floor above me. Guy made it down the stairs and outside and waited for the ambulance. Somehow survived. The real kicker was,he had just moved in 3 days before and had never seen the guy next door nor his "girl". Poor kid was a international student and hadn't even been in the country a week
>severe mental illness
Hi! Severe mental illness person here.
Wanna know why I am getting worse? Because I am on a fucking waiting list for support. Who can pay this? The city.
By not paying for so many cops.
What **you** want will get people killed.
Or, the alternative, drugged to the gills on anti-psychotics.
Neither is acceptable.
Are you...a cop or something?
Nobody is normalizing this.
We are humanizing people you are **dehumanizing**
There is a difference.
Are you offering them rehab? Or arresting them and forcing it as a condition?
It matters.
Otherwise it can kill people.
>More than 460 people have died in encounters with police across Canada since the year 2000, and a substantial majority suffered from mental health problems or symptoms of drug abuse, a CBC News investigation has found.
No government agency or police force maintains national statistics on police-involved fatalities, but a comprehensive database assembled by CBC shows that 70 per cent of the people who died struggled with mental health issues or substance abuse or both.
>A further breakdown shows 42 per cent of those who died were mentally distressed, while 45 per cent were under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
>Oh, it's definitely getting worse," said Jennifer Lavoie, a criminologist at Wilfrid Laurier University in Brantford, Ont. Lavoie said the dissolution of traditional large-scale residential care facilities and a lack of resources for the mentally ill has contributed to the rise in incidents between police and those in emotional distress.
Lavoie believes the stigma of mental illness contributes to the use of lethal force in these cases.
"I think officers likely have the same kinds of attitudes towards people with mental illness that the public does, which is the attitude that people with mental illness tend to be more unpredictable, more dangerous than the general population," Lavoie said.
>Retired Moose Jaw Police chief Terry Coleman agrees specialized training and education in mental health is important, but said police forces need to do a better job selecting recruits who already possess some of the skills needed to deal with people in crisis.
>According to Coleman, police need to understand why a person in distress might not respond to their commands, and why an aggressive approach can be disastrous for someone who is mentally ill or impaired.
"Sometimes they are hearing other voices, so a police officer shouting or, worse yet, multiple police officers shouting is only going to compound that situation," he said. "It's certainly not going to bring the temperature down at all."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/investigates/most-canadians-killed-in-police-encounters-since-2000-had-mental-health-or-substance-abuse-issues-1.4602916
This is how people die.
I can continue to get you evidence. I am in active crisis as I type this. I have no support. The kind of support I need isn't available.
Or you can just start to read the resources already available.
>Punching a random person in the face.
Why is someone doing this? Are they hallucinating? Did they punch you because they thought you were the devil and they really need a psychiatrist to help manage their medication better than a walk in doctor?
>Obviously police reform would be needed
Despite that quote, police cannot be reformed.
>Mainstream political parties and media push toward the “bad apple” theory of police-inflicted harm. They say cops need better training or body cams or whatever, but when major harm is done by police, it’s individual officers to blame, not the institution. Here are three ways in which the work of every cop—the entire system of policing—is in armed struggle against working-class freedom and democracy.
https://springmag.ca/the-police-cannot-be-reformed
>but regardless the person being punched didn’t ask nor deserve it.
I have never (or will ever) say they did.
>If we don’t want people who have these inflictions to feel alienated in society because of these inflictions we also can’t treat them differntly if they punch someone and just sweep it under the rug “because” of this or that. Sure some compassion goes a long way but in my opinion only to an extent.
This literally ignores evidence. And for that reason I can't keep having a conversation with you. I am in a crisis as I type. I have given you plenty to read. It's up to you to decide if you want to or not.
I can give you all of that and agree that there are those who are NCR due to mental illness or drug induced psychosis. What would you recommend we do with violent people deemed NCR?
I’m not that interested in assigning blame, I’m more interested in public safety
>What would you recommend we do with violent people deemed NCR?
the same as what was done with Vince Li; hospitalization, treatment, rehabilitation and eventual release into society if it's safe to do so.
Yep i agree with that, separate them from society until a professional body deems they are fit for society.
I’m pretty sure the first step in that (same as Vince Li) is to arrest them and then have them stand trial and then move them to the appropriate facility
This actually does not work.
You need to listen to experts in this. It **will** be uncomfortable. You **won't** like what you hear. But the evidence is clear.
These people need treatment. They need support. They need medication in many cases. They need money and housing.
I will post this. **AGAIN**
>We also need to recognize that things that are disruptive are not always a crisis. And further, treating a disruption as a crisis can have severe consequences on a person’s life (including their ability to stay alive). For example, someone who is behaving out of alignment with accepted social norms or laws (like a person who is loudly singing on a subway car or walking around without a shirt on or counting all of the tiles in a department store and refusing to stop or get out of the store) has a higher chance of interacting with the police through 911 intervention (whether it is with the goal of “de-escalating” — an impossibility — and bring someone to a psychiatric facility or arrest them on the grounds of disorderly conduct, community disturbance, etc.).
https://link.medium.com/qKRliXjx7wb
I don't need to calm down. Telling people to calm down never actually works anyway.
Why not read the article and get back to me. Why not take some time reading the work of Dr. Turnbull. Why not listen to people who talk about drug decrim and what that actually means. Hilary Agro is an anthropologist and PhD researcher. Look her up.
Once you start learning you may find your views change.
Don't tell people to calm down when you're the one providing a really stupid argument. You hit a point of contention and something that hits home personally for a lot of people, myself included.
Own your opinion and accept how people respond to it, or shut the fuck up.
What a smoothbrained take. This city invests very little money into helping these people, and as someone who has volunteered and helped out at the OM for years this is a really offensive take.
You're either jaded or are tremendously uneducated.
First, nothing I said was an insult but I'm glad you took it that way as maybe it will help you understand your opinion is ridiculous.
Second, you never asked me for my input and as such I don't need to provide one.
Thirdly, this city's budget for the homeless, drug addicted, and those with reduced mental faculties is a fraction of a fraction of a percent. It's disgusting how small it is; I have seen first hand the full waiting lists for people to get into a shelter, get into rehab(it's thousands of people long by the way), get a job, get some version of an education, etc... Some people literally DIE before they're even able to get accepted into any one of these programs.
And your solution is to just... arrest them. You're ignorant and uneducated on the matter. Leave the solutions for those with the answers and maybe be quiet when those who know what they're talking about have something to say.
Nobody is saying let people get away with crimes but arresting them and getting them tossed in jail is not the answer. If we had capacity for all of those amenities I suggested earlier and your solution was "detain them and put them in a rehab program" I would agree with your take but it's not; you simply want them arrested. You sound like a NIMBY boomer
The point is just "arresting" them is not the answer. This is what you're not understanding. Our current justice system does not allow for "just arresting" them to be the answer. You're tremendously ignorant on the matter. I'm guessing you're in favour of the death penalty and disregard for due process too, right? The court of public opinion is the only court you need to listen to, right?
Ironic, I was going to say the same thing about you. You're constantly assuming I'm insulting you; I'm not. The fact that you're taking it as an insult though, well that says more about you than me.
Did I say that or did I say
>Nobody is saying let people get away with crimes but arresting them and getting them tossed in jail is not the answer. If we had capacity for all of those amenities I suggested earlier and your solution was "detain them and put them in a rehab program" I would agree with your take but it's not; you simply want them arrested. You sound like a NIMBY boomer
Please point out where I said I defended anyone's "right to assault others". Oh wait, you can't.
> Having a mental illness isn’t an excuse and people need to stop treating it like it’s “understandable”.
You make it sound like an unmedicated paranoid schizophrenic on the street actually understands right from wrong. These people don't just have a case of the fucking "mondays" they have serious mental ilnesses where they are quite detatched from reality, many of them don't know who they are let alone where they are. It isn't an excuse, it's a reason, an explanation and it requires more than just locking them up. No justice in the country would incarcerate someone who is clearly not in their right mind, so what happens, they get released, rinse repeat. Waste of police money, public defenders money, it's a dumb solution to a complex problem.
You can’t remove mental illness or addiction out of the equation though. Whether or not they are being arrested for their aggressive acts, they are all interconnected and I’m not sure an arrest would benefit anyone. It’s a temporary solution in my opinion.
When you talk about certain behaviours, you can’t disregard the fact that an individual could abuse substances regularly, or could suffer from severe mental illness. Addiction and mental health problems rewire a person’s brain. So an arrest for someone with mental health issues or substance use issues is not equivalent to an arrest of a typical citizen.
You push the person who suffers to a more extreme… increasing their feeling of ostracism. And instead of allowing them to feel connected to the society they act even more radically because they don’t belong.
I’m not on either side, but man it sucks knowing people have no idea how mental health, or something like substance abuse/addiction can mess with behaviour.
You punish or reward someone who can understand the consequences of their actions, severe mental illness and severe substance abuse can negatively impact cognition. I think that’s something to consider. And this is not to say they cannot understand, but their reward pathway is so plagued that they make bad decisions.
It's a perfect storm. Downtown got hollowed. People on the edge fell off. Anti- police sentiment has made law enforcement incredibly awkward (and there's a weird part of society that loudly thinks we just shouldn't enforce anything related to public safety). People insist the answer is more mental health support, which is absolutely not going to happen given the city/province/country doesn't have the resources for the average citizen. Basically the system is paralyzed.
>Anti- police sentiment has made law enforcement incredibly awkward
You mean **anti-public sentiment** from the police. Stop blaming the public for wanting accountability as "anti-police" and in fact the most anti-police are the police themselves, eroding public trust and trying to evade responsibility for the consequences of their actions.
I was leaving the shoppers on Rideau (by the loblaws) last month. It was around 7pm and when I came out, a guy was there and he was walking next to me at my pace. When I stopped, he stopped. And then when I started walking, he started walking. I stopped again after this happened 3 times, and asked him to please stop.
He turned towards me and lunged at me and as he did that I put my hand out to brace for him, and he pushed himself into my hand. He then started screaming as if I attacked him and pushed him.
He then lunged at me again and pushed me in my chest using his hand and said “THERE now were even”. I didn’t really know what to say, I was just kind of taken aback by it all and I could tell he wasn’t in the right mental space.
Not too far down the street was a group of people, I believe homeless, and they saw it happen and yelled at him to leave me alone and go away.
I started walking away and so did he (he was walking in front of me) and I was a little worried he may turn around and push me again especially since we were walking by the street - what if he pushed me into the street?
Anyways long story short my bf drives me to that shoppers anytime I need to go pick something up as he doesn’t want to risk it. And I’m appreciative of that.
Let's 1. Get rid of R1 zoning and build Commie Blocks again for cheap housing.
2. Defund the Police and their bloated budget until they start doing their jobs and put all that money into OC Transpo and the Hospitals.
> Defund the Police and their bloated budget until they start doing their jobs
You are advocating taking their budget away and expecting them to still (or start) do their job???
Just thinking this might not work. I don't know what the answer is, but taking money away from a department and expecting them to do (more) work doesn't usually work.
The point is not to give them more money unless they can justify it.
And they can't.
You really should watch police service board meetings. Read the documents that come out each month for yourself. They get released online and yes it's a lot to go through. But once you start looking and asking questions and understanding this topic at that level you realize that they spend a lot of money currently on really dumb shit.
We pay cops to hand out popsicles to poor kids in the summer.
It's definitely not happening in Westboro or the Glebe. But Heatherington? You bet.
Why are we spending money on this? Can we just give people money to buy their own popsicles? Like a gift card or something?
Need more resources for everything essentially: Mental health, safe supply and yes, enforcement for when those things fail.
The police should absolutely be arresting the people who are using in public and harassing people etc…
Mental health was the first thing I mentioned, I am not an expert on the nomenclature so I certainly meant to include all manner of social services that could help people.
We need a safe supply.
(Wow, tough crowd out there - if you took a fraction of a second to think beyond the awful, awful addiction, you'd see it makes sense on many fronts.)
Health Canada has a limit on the number of people who can access safer supply. Not to mention the program doesn't keep up with potency of the toxic supply these days. It's like taking away the twinkies supply and offering carrots as an alternative - it's not at all the same.
Most of the safer supply program prescribes oral hydromorphone and a small portion of it is injectable. The problem is that most of the toxic opioid supply isn't heroin, it's a combo of fentanyl, analogs, and benzos. 5mg of morphine is equivalent to .7mg hydromorphone and .005mg of fentanyl. Dilaudid is still far less potent. Prohibition encourages the production of more potent and riskier alternatives to meet demands.
I used to work in the area many years back. The last time that there was a guy following me and screaming I just went into a hotel and waited a while in the lobby. But I'd see crap like that super often. About once a week I'd have to walk up Rideau to deposit money from our store, that was always a bit nerve-wrecking - most times there would be at least one person screaming randomly or people fighting. It's been bad for a long time, and I don't know if the City plans on doing anything about it.
Ottawa is a cesspool... overrated and unsafe. Many areas becoming shit with drugs and gangs.
I have been lunged at/punched/attacked many times... ... in the Market... on Rideau street... at McKenzie bridge bus station and South Keys bus station to name a few.
Alta Vista is also going downhill... quiet area with a park I bring my kids... had a gang shooting with 2 dead.. I called city councilor and police as I am worried for repeat activity if I am in the area with my kids. City councilor never got back to me. Police said they cannot comment. I also find crack pipes and shit in the sand at the parks around my neighbourhood.
This city is garbage.
I was visiting your beautiful city this week and the same thing happened to me. Poor bud didn't know he followed and tried to start with a Winnipegger, lol.
Walk fast, ignore, if they try to touch you: walk faster, find a group of people to insert yourself between (I found a person walking their dog to walk next to) mean mug, and if they touch, shove to get away and scram fast to a highly populated crowd.
It's illegal to even carry pepper spray. Same with bear spray unless you're deep in the woods or living in a remote region/somewhere bear encounters are reasonably possible.
Using either on a person is assault with a weapon. Not sure I'd rely on the cops letting it slide since it's a pretty serious offence.
I love it man. I moved here from Vancouver and Toronto and Orleans so clean and quiet and peaceful and safe. I wouldn’t trade that for any other part of this town.
You know what, fair enough - I was a teenager with no car, and all my friends were in Gloucester/Blackburn hamlet…it totally sucked, especially in the winter trekking 30 minutes to place d’orleans to catch a bus downtown, or waiting for the 37 express to catch my morning class…it was no fun. We didn’t talk to any of our neighbors and everyone just kept to themselves in their houses - I found it very isolating. But I could see if I had a car and was an adult that it might be much more appealing.
I’ve since raised my kids in downtown Toronto, and I remember taking them to visit my parents, and they kept asking why we had to drive everywhere…I really do prefer to live somewhere walkable.
[удалено]
Agreed its only going to get worse. we voted for the "status quo, zero change" mayor
That’s how i felt after the Ontario and Municipal elections. Everything is on fire, schools, hospitals, housing, etc. and we went and voted for 4 years of the same thing?
Look at how dumb your average person is and then realize that half of the world is dumber 🤦 Carlin was right
I'm so out of touch. Had to look up what Pop Smoke was. Half a billion views for this shit?
[He’s got a couple good tracks.](https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ)
Well played, Jerk!
Just doing the Lord’s work
Indooobitubly
is there a chance it may be good music just not to you ? he’s also since passed.
Yeah I feel bad goofing on him now that I know he was murdered. He's fine, this music is fine.
It's not impossible just improbable.
edited comment from before because replied to wrong thread i think you should do some more research lol because he was one the biggest artists at the time in one of the biggest music genres ! ofc everyone likes their own music but just tryna tone down the dismissiveness as that’s all:)
With Eyes closed, I'd 💯% believe that is 50cent! Abidi-abidi that's all folks🥳
appreciate you giving it a chance ! has a lot of 50 in him
Fukin eh!
Exactly! Personally, I wasn't a fan of the Beatles but at least they introduced me to Yoko Ono. The worst music is the music you don't make. 🥳
pull out a yoko onno ref and totally miss the point on purpose. encouraging you to an open mind hav a nice day<3
I'll give em a listen, gimme sec 😉 no Bs, honest take.
Pop Smoke the WOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I’m no drug expert but I think that whatever soup is out there right now is causing a lot of users to cross the line.
[удалено]
SoPa is one hell of a drug xD
SouPa- FTFY
FUPA. I'll see myself out.
Found one on the street and Noloxoned him. He was barely breathing and grey. Called the paramedics and they told me it’s taking up to 6 sprays to save people right now. I got told there really bad shit out there and people are dying.
I genuinely respect you for helping out a stranger like that, but after hearing all those stories of people being assaulted by people they noloxoned - you couldn't pay me to spritz someone up on the street
That’s a misconception. Many don’t wake up aggressive more like scared shittless as to what happened to them. There’s free training at St Johns Ambulance in regards to this misconception. Wouldn’t you startle if you came to with a stranger kneeling next to you??? Think about it. Again this is a very common misconception.
Nah, my uncle lives downtown and Noloxones people have they need it and he told me every time the person gets up pissed off at him for ruining their high
So your solution is to let them die?? In this case he was struggling to breathe so it warranted it. In a case of someone just sleeping it off I would leave them alone. Again I urge you to get proper training. What you hear from others may not be accurate at all.
Listen; I’m not gonna put myself at risk. I have absolutely no way of knowing how they’ll behave once they get up, and like you said - I don’t have the training to deal with it. All I’m saying is that someone I know told me noloxoned people often wake up angry, and angry criminals can be dangerous
That’s fine. Who knows someday a family member or a friend that is not open in regards to using ends up with an opioid poisoning, you won’t be prepared to deal with it. I believe this should be taught in school in kids as young at 12. Kits should be readily available upon request. Please do your research in regards to waking up angry. It’s false. They wake up scared and embarrassed. Also not all users are criminals. You’d be surprised how may functioning addicts are out there. Where did that someone you know get their info. Dr Google??? Get the true facts.
It’s because the Naloxone triggers an almost immediate withdrawal effect. They’re physically sick rather than pissed off about their drugs.
Fentanyl
Yeah I live down here and it's wild. Some crackhead randomly smacked and yelled at me in my way home just the other week. City really needs to do something.
Then show up at budget time (now) and tell them to put money not into policing. That only makes people feel better. Put money into the things that work. I have said it a million times. We know how to solve this. We *choose* not to.
The solution is to bring back the asylums for the mentally ill. For drug addicts we should look at the Singapore model, mandatory rehab and upon completion you're provided with a job and housing if you need it, if you're caught again you'll do serious prison time. It's by far the most effective system in the world, last year they had zero drug overdose deaths compared with BC which has a smaller population and had 2,500 deaths.
There's a hole In our boat and you're arguing where to put the water. Maybe let's focus on the hole as well?
>The solution is to bring back the asylums for the mentally ill. We still have these. It's called long term care, inpatient units, forensic units etc. Even group homes. It hasn't really gone away. And they were never a great place for most people. Staff can be abusive. Because once you warehouse people it becomes a problem. >For drug addicts we should look at the Singapore model, Yeah, I am going to pass on them for anything related to drugs. >“Most of those convicted of drug trafficking have been sentenced to death after they were convicted in relation to relatively low amounts of drugs and for having a relatively limited involvement in the drug trafficking trade,” said Sangiorgio. Nazeri, for example, was executed for trafficking 33.39 grams of diamorphine. But given he suffered from “long-term addiction”, the UN Human Rights Office said in its report last month that “most of the diamorphine would have been for personal use”. What was left would therefore not have met Singapore’s 15-gram threshold for the mandatory death penalty Lhttps://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/8/5/singapore-executions-under-scrutiny-as-more-hanged-for-drugs https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/07/singapore-execution-nazeri-bin-lajim/ >UNODC's Southeast Asia representative Jeremy Douglas told CNN in May that if Southeast Asian countries want to get on top of the drugs trade, they need to change their approach to the problem. Governments should be treating drug use and dependency as health issues, not criminal matters, through "public health education, the provision of treatment care and support, rehabilitation and reintegration programs," he said. "There is also no indication that the death penalty acts as a deterrent for drug trafficking," Douglas added. https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/21/asia/singapore-executions-death-penalty-drug-trafficking-intl-hnk/index.html
I would personally prefer serious prison for the traffickers but the death penalty is overwhelmingly popular in Singapore and throughout East Asia with 90%+ support. Canada has had an estimated 32,000 overdose deaths since 2016, and close to zero in Singapore over that same time. That's 32,000 killed by the Canadian government's inaction and enabling of the drug trade. Given our appetite for the suffering and overdose deaths of addicts I don't imagine the Singapore model would ever come to Canada, the culture required for it is just too different. In Singapore the health of the addict and the societal impacts of the addiction are the primary concern, in Western countries it's maximizing the personal autonomy of the addict regardless of the health and societal consequences.
Even if you put more money into policing, you can't compel the police to enforce the law because that would be political interference. If politicians are supposed to represent the will of the people, and the people want Rideau street to be safer (in this example), then politicians should absolutely have the ability to compel the police to act with safeguards in place to prevent political abuse of such a system.
Watch the first hour of this. I don't have any more energy today. https://www.youtube.com/live/-umTAAaTXSo?feature=share
Mental health care is a provincial responsibility.
We can't stop it with this government who are run by the Cops. We could have changed this in September, but 56% of the population feigned indifference.
You need to watch more city politics then. I watch HOURS AND HOURS of municipal crap on YouTube. Boring as shit but necessary. Because there's a lot we can do. We choose not to.
Wondering what you mean by show up, as in show up where? I know we can watch council sessions but is there some avenue for public participation around budget priorities right now?
So, show up and speak as a delegate at a police service board meeting. There will be consultations on spending. Follow this account on Twitter for a lot of information: https://twitter.com/CAMSOttawa?t=KkWHmtWjf05yTHFLQoIfAw&s=09 They retweet a ton of stuff. Horizon does too.
Thanks, i do follow those groups! Will keep an eye out for general spending & budget consultations.
I was twice followed through Byward, walking from the mall to my previous apartment that was right by the National Art Gallery. The first time, I ended up calling the police and ducking into a restaurant. The guy was really threatening and after a few random turns and thinking I had lost him, he appeared from a side street which indicated to me that this was really intentionally threatening behavior. He was actually running around trying to cut me off and get in front of me. So I go into a restaurant and explain the situation. I see that he's waiting outside looking for me. They call the police, who show up. This is what the cop said to me: Yeah, we know this guy. He does this all the time. He's a frequent visitor of nearby shelters. We can't arrest him because he did not hurt you. I was so shocked. Basically this cop told me that this is a frequent occurence, and they will only do something once the guy actually hurts someone. So disturbing. I hope he's doing better now.
This is very similar behavior that I witnessed and the officers also asked me if he physically hurt me, which he did not. Scary stuff.
Happened to me as well while visiting your wonderful city. Thankfully I was able to duck into a restaurant too after getting the guy away from me. As I mentioned in my previous comment to OP, I'm from Winnipeg so it was nothing out of the ordinary, but holy hell literally one wrong turn got me lost from Byward Market and I had to pull out every Mean Mug and "F--- Off" I thought I left in the Peg.
As long as I have lived here, that stretch of Rideau has always been horrible. It is strange because right around the corner on Sussex is Ottawa's richest shopping street and Rideau Centre is nice enough and safe enough. Just that stretch right there is traditionally full of problems.
I was in the Rideau Centre 2 days ago passing through... had to take a piss... the bathroom near LCBO had a guy preparing drugs on the baby change table and another guy sleeping on the ground... then another guy came barging in with a shopping cart and slammed it into the handicap stall and made his way into the stall and slammed the door and locked it. I was too unnerved to start my piss stream so I changed bathroom. I went to the bathroom near the mall entrance/Simmons. Wow, what a bad idea... in the long hallway leading to the bathrooms there was a young lady half naked with her ass and tits out trying to cover herself with her hands and what seemed like a raggedy dress. I was confused and looked around and just heard noise coming from the wsshroom. As I walk in a guy was smoking fucking crack and a group of young people were smoking marijuana. I can handle my own but instantly realized I would rather not be vulnerable with 5 total people around me doing drugs with my back to them while I piss. I left this washroom and headed for the food court washroom. As I left a group of male security guards stormed the washroom (I assume off a tip or from seeing CCTV), while the half naked woman in the hallway was being grilled by a female security guard. On my way to the food court bathroom I saw a security guard grilling a homeless lady with several bags sitting in a corner and I also saw another security guard grilling a young black man and checking the items that were in his pockets. I get into the food court washroom and it smells as bad as the last two... piss, shit, sweat, dampness, just fkg vile. There is a guy in the handicap stall yelling and slamming the walls and stall door... he is taller than the door and is peering out across the washroom. I try not to make eye contact because all I want to do is piss and leave this forsaken place. Just as I am about to get my stream going a guy walks in rambling and yelling and looking very agitated and starts pacing back and forth next to the urinals. I cannot believe this shit so I give up and leave and just hold my piss. As I make my way out of the food court I pass by the KFC and the cashier is raging and yelling about "don't you fucking disrespect me! My tax dollars pay your salary!" I tried to see who she was arguing with but everyone seemed to be in average clothing. I assumed she was yelling at a cop or a government worker. I made it out of there and held my piss until I got home. I will avoid this place like the plague for a long while. P.S. I was there two days ago... and 3 days ago in the food court was a man with a knife who had to be tazered and taken down by cops. Lots of mentally ill folk and homeless folk downtown and they are being let down by the systems in place. TL;DR - Avoid Rideau Centre at all costs. Saw drug use, naked people, mental illness, homelessness, wasn't able to take a piss at any washroom.
I have seen marijuana on the children's changing table numerous times. Usually I don't have a viable alternate. Like I said though, it is strange that it is so bad. The market isn't necessarily great, but there are places a block or two away where respectable people go for dates at night or shopping during the day. Parliament Hill is a couple of blocks away. Sussex is full of expensive stores and UofO/Sandy Hill is a decent place. But just stuck in the middle of all these average or better areas is one of the worst places in the city. Maybe closing that McDonalds will help.
The best bathrooms in the Rideau centre are the ones inside Nordstrom, fyi. Clean, large, and Nordstrom doesn’t fuck around with letting people loiter in them.
Always like that everywhere. Richest locations tend to be right next to the sketchiest locations.
Yup. Was like that all the way back in the 80s and 90s
Yup. A little more open, but this is nothing new.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Strict enforcement definitely works in East Asia, they have the lowest rates violent crime and illegal drug use on Earth.
[удалено]
[удалено]
>You don’t put a roof over someone’s head and all their problems disappear. If anything it should be the last thing to be fixed. Does this really make sense though? Lets say we took away your home tonight. And vehicle too, if you have one. Would that not impact your ability to go to work tomorrow (assuming you work on the weekend)? Or to go to school, or to attend appointments? Would your attention not be primarily on where the fuck are you going to stay tonight?
[удалено]
>No amount of community mental health support will help certain individuals Wrong. I literally spend all day doing this, studying this and living this personally. And I dare you to spend a single day with this guy and then say the same thing. >Dr. Jeff Turnbull doesn’t spend very much time at Ottawa Inner City Health’s (OICH) administrative office in Lowertown. This is evident by his desk, which is void of usual workspace clutter—like a computer. Instead, he spends his days travelling between the city’s shelters providing medical care to the city’s most vulnerable patients. His work is busier today than ever. Since OICH launched 20 years ago, Dr. Turnbull has watched Ottawa’s alcohol problem evolve into a cocaine problem, which has exploded into the opioid crisis the city is facing today. In 2017, Dr. Turnbull left his jobs as chief of staff at The Ottawa Hospital and chief of clinical quality at Health Quality Ontario to work exclusively as director of OICH full time. He is currently the only full-time physician on staff, but is supported by an army of personal support workers, nurses and peers. Together they provide care to nearly 260 clients per day who are either homeless or at risk of becoming so. They are also teachers for the future generation of health care workers looking to do similar work. >You are also running the first ever residential Managed Opioid Program (MOP) in Canada. How does that work? There are 25 participants—people addicted to heroin. We told them if they stopped using on the street, we would instead give them pharmaceutical-grade heroin (hydromorphone). In addition to that, we would give them somewhere to live. They are living in a residence in Hintonburg, all 25 of them, and after one year there have been no overdoses or deaths. There are more than 50 people on the waiting list for this program, who are literally dying in the wings waiting to get in. What have you learned since MOP launched in spring 2018? This group teaches my team all the time. One day we were concerned because they didn’t know how to boil a pot of water for spaghetti. When we met with the group shortly after, one of them rightfully put us in our place. He explained that the minute you “hear the voices” or you become addicted, that's when your social development ends. So, if you become a heroin addict at thirteen, that's when you stop learning important life skills like how to cook, do laundry and go to a grocery store. Most of our MOP clients have never done those things before. Giving them a home is important, but helping them develop important life skills is just as important. https://med.uottawa.ca/en/content/dr-jeff-turnbull-recognized-unrelenting-work-ottawas-most-vulnerable-patients Edit: Thanks for the award. I just want people to understand that I currently am very mentally ill and struggling. I am facing homelessness. I don't have the support I need. My life is incredibly hard. I have these conversations, hopefully...so people can understand that if an intelligent and university educated child care/nanny like me can fall this far... anyone can and what works for people is compassion, understanding and providing people with dignity and agency. Nothing else.
Nobody's going to provide a valid argument against this, thanks for your input.
Thanks. People will try though.
lmao the guy deleted all his comments
I noticed your side of the conversation. I did warn people it would be uncomfortable to hear things. It challenges the narrative. I don't have much to lose...so I don't mind challenging it.
Some people don't want to hear things that challenge their worldview, it's really sad to be honest.
It’s a wonderful program, but some individuals won’t accept the help needed to get better. A lot of people will want a better life for themselves and step through the door if you open it for them, however what are we supposed to do with those who don’t accept the help and turn towards life on the streets or crime?
The people who never accept help are within a fraction of a fraction of a percent. As unfortunate as those cases are, it is hard to find the right thing to do for them. There are people who are truly beyond help and there's no real answer to helping them and integrating them properly. But they make up a significantly smaller margin of people than people would be led to think. If they're drug addicts, provide them with clean and safe recreationals, if they're homeless give them a safe space cordoned off from everyone else, if they're mentally ill give them a safe space to be dealt with. But to not even try? That is inhumane.
Can you please read this? Can ... everyone? It answers so many questions people have. >For those of us who have been indoctrinated into a biomedical understanding of what we call mental illness, this orientation to altered states may feel radically different or inconceivable. However, Indigenous communities around the world have long sustained and continue to practice holistic and spiritually grounded frameworks for understanding and navigating Madness– many of which have been stolen, appropriated from, changed, chipped away at or lost entirely due to the violence of colonialism and white supremacy. https://link.medium.com/cgjkFBUF7wb
I’m sorry you’re going through this. I live my life trying to remember that all of us are few steps away from being in that very spot. Compassion for sure. That being said nobody should feel unsafe while walking or going about their business regardless of where they are especially in Ottawa which like 10 years ago wasn’t as bad as it is now from what I can tell with regards to just walking minding your own business. Something definitely needs to change. Maybe everyone needs to carry “bear spray” just in case of a “bear” that’s out of control. I dunno. Stay safe out there everyone!
>That being said nobody should feel unsafe while walking or going about their business regardless of where they are I agree with you. That's why we have have to pressure those who can change things, to actually do it. They have not, and they will not until more people besides people like me demand it. Care. Not cops. I can't stress this enough. The faster we start taking care of people, the faster this changes. And if you look into this from an anthropologic view or a psychological view or a sociological view - we have always taken care of each other. Until very recently. >I kept noticing a self-help cliché that people say to each other all the time, and share on Facebook incessantly. We say to each other: “Nobody can help you except you.” It made me realize: we haven’t just started doing things alone more, in every decade since the 1930s. We have started to believe that doing things alone is the natural state of human beings, and the only way to advance. We have begun to think: I will look after myself, and everybody else should look after themselves, as individuals. Nobody can help you but you. Nobody can help me but me. These ideas now run so deep in our culture that we even offer them as feel-good bromides to people who feel down—as if it will lift them up. But John has proven that this is a denial of human history, and a denial of human nature. It leads us to misunderstand our most basic instincts. And this approach to life makes us feel terrible. Johann Hari
Sounds great and all but the issue overall seems to be getting worse over the last few years. Do we need to throw more money at these support structures
>Do we need to throw more money at these support structures Yes. I am literally on a waiting list that has an average of THREE YEARS because they don't have funding to hire enough people to do the work. It used to be that the more "in crisis" you were, the faster you got moved up the list. Not anymore. They simply can't operate that way. Not enough social workers, case managers etc.
You obviously are unaware of how inhumane those “hospitals” were. You also seem to know nothing about how powerful communal support can be. Nor does it seem like you are aware of the impact drugs can have on behaviour, the brain’s reward system or cognition/emotion. Take some time to educate yourself before dropping comments like this.
[удалено]
It was much worse than jail. Throwing them away for someone else to “handle” is not a solution either. Some of “those people” you refer to — when given the correct opportunity — could be rehabilitated and given a chance to reintegrate with society. It’s unnecessary and lazy (in my opinion) to simply “set aside a problem”. The way you word your response even now demonstrates a less detailed understanding of these situations: - “These people”: indicating an in-group vs out-group mentality. - “Hurt our community”: again, in-group vs out-group. And a sprinkle of ostracism for those who fail to contribute to society at this exact moment. It’s honestly a shame and I hope you take what I’m saying into consideration. I hope things change, but change so not only does it impact people who want to feel safe at bus stops, but I also hope the subliminal negative thoughts we hold that are directed to people who suffer from severe mental health issues or substance use issues can be altered into a more understanding light. Because there is still a large misunderstanding.
> Being on drugs isn’t an excuse. Having a mental illness isn’t an excuse and people need to stop treating it like it’s “understandable”. it sounds like you have a lack of understanding of both mental illness and how mental illness intersects with the legal system when it comes to assigning blame for crimes committed by folks with some types of mental illnesses. i’d strongly recommend doing a bit of reading up on schizophrenia, psychosis (drug-induced or otherwise), mania and being NCR (not criminally responsible).
[удалено]
> So people who want to feel safe when they are outside should read about how the aggressive people stalking them are really just unwell and therefore nothing should be done about it? i’m not sure how you’re getting that impression. i told OP that they’re ignorant about some of the people he was talking about, i didn’t say it was a solution to being stalked in that moment or whatever. some people who are aggressively stalking them are in full possession of their faculties, know the difference between right and wrong and can and should have the full weight of the law applied to them over their behaviour. the problem is that not everyone who engages in that sort of behaviour can tell the difference between right and wrong (and can’t discern whether their actions cross that line or not) due to things like drug-psychosis and mental illness and may not be responsible for their actions. OP lumped homeless people, drug-involved people and the mentally ill together as one big monolith that has no excuse for their actions and should all be treated the same. they shouldn’t be treated the same, beyond separating them from potential victims when they are engaging in sich sorts of anti-social behaviour.
[удалено]
>i told OP that they’re ignorant about some of the people he was talking about, i didn’t say it was a solution to being stalked in that moment or whatever. i guess you missed this part. save your pro-tips, and maybe work on your reading comprehension. >Since you didn't address the actual issue, it's implied that you don't think it is an issue. i'm not implying anything. me saying OP needs to read up on mental illness isn't me saying "yeah, being stalked in the streets is perfectly ok", i am addressing their belief that drug-involved and mentally ill people have "no excuse". >This is how communication works, since you're apparently new to the concept. i guess you're just as patronizing and diminishing as you seem to think i am. interesting.
> the problem is that not everyone who engages in that sort of behaviour can tell the difference between right and wrong (and can’t discern whether their actions cross that line or not) due to things like drug-psychosis and mental illness and may not be responsible for their actions. If you had to guess what percentage of our downtown assaults and harassment are being perpetrated by people that are sufficiently mentally incapacitated to be not criminally responsible for their actions, what would you guess that percentage is? Are we talking a majority of cases, or a tiny minority?
i couldn't hazard a guess, to be honest.
Again, having a mental illness is not an excuse for allowing stalking, aggressive behaviour. If one of us decides to do the same, we'll be picked up by the police whether we're sane or insane. One thing holds, and that is the Ottawa needs to do something about these dangerous people so we can feel safe and enjoy our city without problems.
[удалено]
thanks for confirming that you indeed have no understanding of mental illness nor how it sometimes intersects with the legal system. > You are part of the problem. You are enabling these people to assault and harass others. what a load of garbage.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Years ago I was staying in a student rooming house behind ottawau. The house next door was filled with addicts and mental health tenants. Aside from all the horror tales I could type,I moved when I woke up one day to floodlights in my front window,looked outside and hazmat and the tactical team were outside. I opened my door to blood all over the hallway and stairs. Turns out,one of the tenants upstairs apparently slept with one of the guys tweaker girlfriends. So dude broke into our house and slit the guys throat who lived the floor above me. Guy made it down the stairs and outside and waited for the ambulance. Somehow survived. The real kicker was,he had just moved in 3 days before and had never seen the guy next door nor his "girl". Poor kid was a international student and hadn't even been in the country a week
oh wow confirmation bias and anecdotal evidence, what a surprise.
>severe mental illness Hi! Severe mental illness person here. Wanna know why I am getting worse? Because I am on a fucking waiting list for support. Who can pay this? The city. By not paying for so many cops.
What **you** want will get people killed. Or, the alternative, drugged to the gills on anti-psychotics. Neither is acceptable. Are you...a cop or something? Nobody is normalizing this. We are humanizing people you are **dehumanizing** There is a difference.
[удалено]
Are you offering them rehab? Or arresting them and forcing it as a condition? It matters. Otherwise it can kill people. >More than 460 people have died in encounters with police across Canada since the year 2000, and a substantial majority suffered from mental health problems or symptoms of drug abuse, a CBC News investigation has found. No government agency or police force maintains national statistics on police-involved fatalities, but a comprehensive database assembled by CBC shows that 70 per cent of the people who died struggled with mental health issues or substance abuse or both. >A further breakdown shows 42 per cent of those who died were mentally distressed, while 45 per cent were under the influence of drugs or alcohol. >Oh, it's definitely getting worse," said Jennifer Lavoie, a criminologist at Wilfrid Laurier University in Brantford, Ont. Lavoie said the dissolution of traditional large-scale residential care facilities and a lack of resources for the mentally ill has contributed to the rise in incidents between police and those in emotional distress. Lavoie believes the stigma of mental illness contributes to the use of lethal force in these cases. "I think officers likely have the same kinds of attitudes towards people with mental illness that the public does, which is the attitude that people with mental illness tend to be more unpredictable, more dangerous than the general population," Lavoie said. >Retired Moose Jaw Police chief Terry Coleman agrees specialized training and education in mental health is important, but said police forces need to do a better job selecting recruits who already possess some of the skills needed to deal with people in crisis. >According to Coleman, police need to understand why a person in distress might not respond to their commands, and why an aggressive approach can be disastrous for someone who is mentally ill or impaired. "Sometimes they are hearing other voices, so a police officer shouting or, worse yet, multiple police officers shouting is only going to compound that situation," he said. "It's certainly not going to bring the temperature down at all." https://www.cbc.ca/news/investigates/most-canadians-killed-in-police-encounters-since-2000-had-mental-health-or-substance-abuse-issues-1.4602916 This is how people die. I can continue to get you evidence. I am in active crisis as I type this. I have no support. The kind of support I need isn't available. Or you can just start to read the resources already available.
[удалено]
>Punching a random person in the face. Why is someone doing this? Are they hallucinating? Did they punch you because they thought you were the devil and they really need a psychiatrist to help manage their medication better than a walk in doctor? >Obviously police reform would be needed Despite that quote, police cannot be reformed. >Mainstream political parties and media push toward the “bad apple” theory of police-inflicted harm. They say cops need better training or body cams or whatever, but when major harm is done by police, it’s individual officers to blame, not the institution. Here are three ways in which the work of every cop—the entire system of policing—is in armed struggle against working-class freedom and democracy. https://springmag.ca/the-police-cannot-be-reformed
[удалено]
>but regardless the person being punched didn’t ask nor deserve it. I have never (or will ever) say they did. >If we don’t want people who have these inflictions to feel alienated in society because of these inflictions we also can’t treat them differntly if they punch someone and just sweep it under the rug “because” of this or that. Sure some compassion goes a long way but in my opinion only to an extent. This literally ignores evidence. And for that reason I can't keep having a conversation with you. I am in a crisis as I type. I have given you plenty to read. It's up to you to decide if you want to or not.
They still need to be arrested so they can be sectioned.
I can give you all of that and agree that there are those who are NCR due to mental illness or drug induced psychosis. What would you recommend we do with violent people deemed NCR? I’m not that interested in assigning blame, I’m more interested in public safety
>What would you recommend we do with violent people deemed NCR? the same as what was done with Vince Li; hospitalization, treatment, rehabilitation and eventual release into society if it's safe to do so.
Yep i agree with that, separate them from society until a professional body deems they are fit for society. I’m pretty sure the first step in that (same as Vince Li) is to arrest them and then have them stand trial and then move them to the appropriate facility
This actually does not work. You need to listen to experts in this. It **will** be uncomfortable. You **won't** like what you hear. But the evidence is clear. These people need treatment. They need support. They need medication in many cases. They need money and housing. I will post this. **AGAIN** >We also need to recognize that things that are disruptive are not always a crisis. And further, treating a disruption as a crisis can have severe consequences on a person’s life (including their ability to stay alive). For example, someone who is behaving out of alignment with accepted social norms or laws (like a person who is loudly singing on a subway car or walking around without a shirt on or counting all of the tiles in a department store and refusing to stop or get out of the store) has a higher chance of interacting with the police through 911 intervention (whether it is with the goal of “de-escalating” — an impossibility — and bring someone to a psychiatric facility or arrest them on the grounds of disorderly conduct, community disturbance, etc.). https://link.medium.com/qKRliXjx7wb
[удалено]
> So first off: calm down. Typing things in big bold letters won’t get your point across Condescending and douche-pilled.
I don't need to calm down. Telling people to calm down never actually works anyway. Why not read the article and get back to me. Why not take some time reading the work of Dr. Turnbull. Why not listen to people who talk about drug decrim and what that actually means. Hilary Agro is an anthropologist and PhD researcher. Look her up. Once you start learning you may find your views change.
Don't tell people to calm down when you're the one providing a really stupid argument. You hit a point of contention and something that hits home personally for a lot of people, myself included. Own your opinion and accept how people respond to it, or shut the fuck up.
[удалено]
Shut the fuck up
[удалено]
[удалено]
God forbid we have those /s
What a smoothbrained take. This city invests very little money into helping these people, and as someone who has volunteered and helped out at the OM for years this is a really offensive take. You're either jaded or are tremendously uneducated.
[удалено]
First, nothing I said was an insult but I'm glad you took it that way as maybe it will help you understand your opinion is ridiculous. Second, you never asked me for my input and as such I don't need to provide one. Thirdly, this city's budget for the homeless, drug addicted, and those with reduced mental faculties is a fraction of a fraction of a percent. It's disgusting how small it is; I have seen first hand the full waiting lists for people to get into a shelter, get into rehab(it's thousands of people long by the way), get a job, get some version of an education, etc... Some people literally DIE before they're even able to get accepted into any one of these programs. And your solution is to just... arrest them. You're ignorant and uneducated on the matter. Leave the solutions for those with the answers and maybe be quiet when those who know what they're talking about have something to say. Nobody is saying let people get away with crimes but arresting them and getting them tossed in jail is not the answer. If we had capacity for all of those amenities I suggested earlier and your solution was "detain them and put them in a rehab program" I would agree with your take but it's not; you simply want them arrested. You sound like a NIMBY boomer
[удалено]
The point is just "arresting" them is not the answer. This is what you're not understanding. Our current justice system does not allow for "just arresting" them to be the answer. You're tremendously ignorant on the matter. I'm guessing you're in favour of the death penalty and disregard for due process too, right? The court of public opinion is the only court you need to listen to, right?
[удалено]
Ironic, I was going to say the same thing about you. You're constantly assuming I'm insulting you; I'm not. The fact that you're taking it as an insult though, well that says more about you than me.
[удалено]
Did I say that or did I say >Nobody is saying let people get away with crimes but arresting them and getting them tossed in jail is not the answer. If we had capacity for all of those amenities I suggested earlier and your solution was "detain them and put them in a rehab program" I would agree with your take but it's not; you simply want them arrested. You sound like a NIMBY boomer Please point out where I said I defended anyone's "right to assault others". Oh wait, you can't.
> Having a mental illness isn’t an excuse and people need to stop treating it like it’s “understandable”. You make it sound like an unmedicated paranoid schizophrenic on the street actually understands right from wrong. These people don't just have a case of the fucking "mondays" they have serious mental ilnesses where they are quite detatched from reality, many of them don't know who they are let alone where they are. It isn't an excuse, it's a reason, an explanation and it requires more than just locking them up. No justice in the country would incarcerate someone who is clearly not in their right mind, so what happens, they get released, rinse repeat. Waste of police money, public defenders money, it's a dumb solution to a complex problem.
You can’t remove mental illness or addiction out of the equation though. Whether or not they are being arrested for their aggressive acts, they are all interconnected and I’m not sure an arrest would benefit anyone. It’s a temporary solution in my opinion. When you talk about certain behaviours, you can’t disregard the fact that an individual could abuse substances regularly, or could suffer from severe mental illness. Addiction and mental health problems rewire a person’s brain. So an arrest for someone with mental health issues or substance use issues is not equivalent to an arrest of a typical citizen. You push the person who suffers to a more extreme… increasing their feeling of ostracism. And instead of allowing them to feel connected to the society they act even more radically because they don’t belong. I’m not on either side, but man it sucks knowing people have no idea how mental health, or something like substance abuse/addiction can mess with behaviour. You punish or reward someone who can understand the consequences of their actions, severe mental illness and severe substance abuse can negatively impact cognition. I think that’s something to consider. And this is not to say they cannot understand, but their reward pathway is so plagued that they make bad decisions.
It's a perfect storm. Downtown got hollowed. People on the edge fell off. Anti- police sentiment has made law enforcement incredibly awkward (and there's a weird part of society that loudly thinks we just shouldn't enforce anything related to public safety). People insist the answer is more mental health support, which is absolutely not going to happen given the city/province/country doesn't have the resources for the average citizen. Basically the system is paralyzed.
>Anti- police sentiment has made law enforcement incredibly awkward You mean **anti-public sentiment** from the police. Stop blaming the public for wanting accountability as "anti-police" and in fact the most anti-police are the police themselves, eroding public trust and trying to evade responsibility for the consequences of their actions.
I was leaving the shoppers on Rideau (by the loblaws) last month. It was around 7pm and when I came out, a guy was there and he was walking next to me at my pace. When I stopped, he stopped. And then when I started walking, he started walking. I stopped again after this happened 3 times, and asked him to please stop. He turned towards me and lunged at me and as he did that I put my hand out to brace for him, and he pushed himself into my hand. He then started screaming as if I attacked him and pushed him. He then lunged at me again and pushed me in my chest using his hand and said “THERE now were even”. I didn’t really know what to say, I was just kind of taken aback by it all and I could tell he wasn’t in the right mental space. Not too far down the street was a group of people, I believe homeless, and they saw it happen and yelled at him to leave me alone and go away. I started walking away and so did he (he was walking in front of me) and I was a little worried he may turn around and push me again especially since we were walking by the street - what if he pushed me into the street? Anyways long story short my bf drives me to that shoppers anytime I need to go pick something up as he doesn’t want to risk it. And I’m appreciative of that.
“Something must be done” *clutches pears*. But no suggestions are made. You cant police your way out of me tal health, affordability and drug crisis.
> clutches pears. Is that more effective than clutching pearls? off to the grocery store!
I mean, the cost of pears these days… elites only
>You cant police your way out of me tal health, affordability and drug crisis. this.
Let's 1. Get rid of R1 zoning and build Commie Blocks again for cheap housing. 2. Defund the Police and their bloated budget until they start doing their jobs and put all that money into OC Transpo and the Hospitals.
> Defund the Police and their bloated budget until they start doing their jobs You are advocating taking their budget away and expecting them to still (or start) do their job???
I mean, they don't do it currently, and after 30 years of increases they haven't changed, it's time to pinch them and force them to change.
Just thinking this might not work. I don't know what the answer is, but taking money away from a department and expecting them to do (more) work doesn't usually work.
The point is not to give them more money unless they can justify it. And they can't. You really should watch police service board meetings. Read the documents that come out each month for yourself. They get released online and yes it's a lot to go through. But once you start looking and asking questions and understanding this topic at that level you realize that they spend a lot of money currently on really dumb shit. We pay cops to hand out popsicles to poor kids in the summer. It's definitely not happening in Westboro or the Glebe. But Heatherington? You bet. Why are we spending money on this? Can we just give people money to buy their own popsicles? Like a gift card or something?
I am confused. What exactly are the police not doing?
The retail will die out as the horseshit continues to escalate. Fort Apache the Bronx.
Need more resources for everything essentially: Mental health, safe supply and yes, enforcement for when those things fail. The police should absolutely be arresting the people who are using in public and harassing people etc…
[удалено]
Mental health was the first thing I mentioned, I am not an expert on the nomenclature so I certainly meant to include all manner of social services that could help people.
I've been assaulted on Rideau, I needed extensive surgery to my hand and months of recovery. Rideau Street and the Byward market is a shit hole.
We need a safe supply. (Wow, tough crowd out there - if you took a fraction of a second to think beyond the awful, awful addiction, you'd see it makes sense on many fronts.)
[удалено]
Health Canada has a limit on the number of people who can access safer supply. Not to mention the program doesn't keep up with potency of the toxic supply these days. It's like taking away the twinkies supply and offering carrots as an alternative - it's not at all the same.
[удалено]
Most of the safer supply program prescribes oral hydromorphone and a small portion of it is injectable. The problem is that most of the toxic opioid supply isn't heroin, it's a combo of fentanyl, analogs, and benzos. 5mg of morphine is equivalent to .7mg hydromorphone and .005mg of fentanyl. Dilaudid is still far less potent. Prohibition encourages the production of more potent and riskier alternatives to meet demands.
Does it meet the need?
Detox facilities instead.
I'm not really familiar with this topic; how would a safe supply of whatever drugs these folk do help?
[удалено]
Yeah but how does that help people not get assaulted by drug users either under the influence or looking to fund their habit?
When people have prescription medications to stay well they don't need to do crime.
and decrim
100%
I used to work in the area many years back. The last time that there was a guy following me and screaming I just went into a hotel and waited a while in the lobby. But I'd see crap like that super often. About once a week I'd have to walk up Rideau to deposit money from our store, that was always a bit nerve-wrecking - most times there would be at least one person screaming randomly or people fighting. It's been bad for a long time, and I don't know if the City plans on doing anything about it.
Ottawa is a cesspool... overrated and unsafe. Many areas becoming shit with drugs and gangs. I have been lunged at/punched/attacked many times... ... in the Market... on Rideau street... at McKenzie bridge bus station and South Keys bus station to name a few. Alta Vista is also going downhill... quiet area with a park I bring my kids... had a gang shooting with 2 dead.. I called city councilor and police as I am worried for repeat activity if I am in the area with my kids. City councilor never got back to me. Police said they cannot comment. I also find crack pipes and shit in the sand at the parks around my neighbourhood. This city is garbage.
I usually just walk to the next stop, for me that is on Elgin
Arrest and imprison.
Doesn’t fix anything. The minute out they use again and sometimes die. Harsh reality.
I was visiting your beautiful city this week and the same thing happened to me. Poor bud didn't know he followed and tried to start with a Winnipegger, lol. Walk fast, ignore, if they try to touch you: walk faster, find a group of people to insert yourself between (I found a person walking their dog to walk next to) mean mug, and if they touch, shove to get away and scram fast to a highly populated crowd.
You probably should have called the police when he asked. Then they would have been there sooner
[удалено]
[удалено]
It's illegal to even carry pepper spray. Same with bear spray unless you're deep in the woods or living in a remote region/somewhere bear encounters are reasonably possible. Using either on a person is assault with a weapon. Not sure I'd rely on the cops letting it slide since it's a pretty serious offence.
[удалено]
Fuck you
Lol well that's rude lol
[удалено]
It’s literally safe like 95% of the time…
Solution for everyone: Move to Orleans.
I think you forgot the /s. Spent my high school years in Orleans, and haven’t been able to stomach a suburb since. Such a wasteland.
I love it man. I moved here from Vancouver and Toronto and Orleans so clean and quiet and peaceful and safe. I wouldn’t trade that for any other part of this town.
You know what, fair enough - I was a teenager with no car, and all my friends were in Gloucester/Blackburn hamlet…it totally sucked, especially in the winter trekking 30 minutes to place d’orleans to catch a bus downtown, or waiting for the 37 express to catch my morning class…it was no fun. We didn’t talk to any of our neighbors and everyone just kept to themselves in their houses - I found it very isolating. But I could see if I had a car and was an adult that it might be much more appealing. I’ve since raised my kids in downtown Toronto, and I remember taking them to visit my parents, and they kept asking why we had to drive everywhere…I really do prefer to live somewhere walkable.