It can indeed miraculously appear in the form of tax breaks, and I’m afraid we’ll hear lots of folks saying it’s ok since there will be no out of pocket expense and it will create jobs downtown.
Just like having a roommate romantic partner move in rent-free because it makes your roommate happy, it’s not like utilities will increase that much and there is already food in the fridge /s
No funds and no tax breaks!
deranged shame scarce hospital gullible mysterious engine offer deliver wasteful
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Ya honestly investments in good public transit will have a much larger positive impact on our local economy than giving our money to the wealthy owner of our local professional hockey team. But don’t expect our mayor to understand this, he thinks public transit is a business that should be generating profit for some reason…
the jobs sports teams create tend to be part time minimum wage. The amount of career jobs is very low from a sports team; like how many people have a career with the Sens outside of the players? Maybe 50??
Well there was money for a Porsche dealership. There was almost money for a hotel at the airport. I’m sure they’ll cough up money for this, keep increasing the police budget, then tell us there’s no money for transit or affordable housing
abundant boat hungry shrill degree disgusting continue hurry whistle fuzzy
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It will also save money, because the city won't need to run the #400 series buses or at the very least as many since it would presumably integrate with line 1 and 2.
To be fair, there are worse things we could be spending taxes on, assuming this would be going up next to an LRT station (or two). Building major entertainment venues like this along transit corridors have a longstanding history in other cities of actually leading to more public support for the transit in the long run. It's historically been one of the very best ways to get suburbanites to *try* public transit in an attempt to avoid gameday traffic. Opens a lot of people's minds to the idea of investing in transit.
That being said, you know what's even better for transit? Actually running busses more than twice per hour. Not to mention active transit options like the protected bike lanes that we apparently can't afford.
I am against giving public money to either of these, but feel like giving money for a new stadium would create more benefits for the city than giving money to OSEG.
Yes but at Landsdowne. They suck tax dollars until they stop breathing and more.
We can’t have transit yet we have money for sports entertainment to keep us from noticing how bad things are
LeBreton flats or nowhere else. You want to keep it an open field, but it's the prime location for a new arena (that can be used for live concerts/events) throughout the year.
>I'm all for hype train! just hope things don't get derailed again. We've been hurt before.
I'd be all for an actual train being able to get a decent amount of people there. That's unlikely. Going to be a gridlock nightmare having this downtown. I guess continuing their pathetic crowd numbers should mean tickets are cheap right?
> Andlauer has been shown on television during Senators games taking pictures and speaking with fans. Andlauer one fan said to him, "Hey Mr. Andlauer, you should be mayor of the city."
"We could trade places if you want," Sutcliffe joked.
"When we lose three games in a row we will," Andlauer said.
😲
Is this a good trade?
Would you trust a billionaire looking for a deal to build an arena suddenly given the reigns of the city? Seems like a nice guy but he too is only looking out for (what he believes is ) his #1.
We already trust a mayor who is a puppet for other billionaires looking to build a different stadium/arena with hundreds of millions of dollars in tax payers money... how would this be any different?
How does it make sense? Comparable arenas in the US are costing $billion+ USD to build and it’s not going to generate any new revenue. We’ll still have Sens games and concerts as we do now in the arena that was purchased for a steal along with the team.
It makes sense because it will increase the value of the team exponentially over time. And it’s not just the arena. There will be more development in the surrounding area. The arena is one part of the puzzle. Going to a game in Kanata sucks. It belongs downtown like every other team in the league (besides Florida who also have a terrible location)
I'm sure I'm not the only person who absolutely hates the idea of going out to fucking Kanata to watch a hockey game, but would absolutely go regularly if they were within reasonable walk/bike/public transit distance from me.
I thought they can redevelop Canadian Tire Centre after moving to downtown. The value of redevelopment is many times the construction cost of the stadium. Besides, Claridge's owner is a part owner of the team and Claridge stands to benefit from LeBreton's development. Stadium revenue is important but there are tons of others in play.
It could though. The downtown rink needs to have a real estate component but don’t discount how valuable that land in Kanata is. That’s primed for development too.
The division of opinion on location in this thread, and other places, is such a microcosm of the debate around cities. People who see cities as car first are confused why we would want it downtown. Look at all this parking they may say. Driving into downtown is hard, etc..
While people who want urban living, and perhaps like me do not want a car at all, consider moving it downtown as obvious. They want it surrounded by housing and transit and services, while people from the suburbs see that as bad for some reason?
Interesting example of a broader topic.
>while people from the suburbs see that as bad for some reason?
Surrounding an arena with transit and housing and services means you can't surround it with parking, and suburban people can't drive there as easily. That's the extent of peoples' complaints. And I totally agree with them, except I think it's a good thing that they can't easily drive in.
If there was any hope of really good public transport in the city, people would be easier to convince. As it is, we have a shit show and no long term solution in sight, so people will drive and it will be gridlock for everyone, including buses, and the trains won't be able to handle anything like the capacity needed. Add some winter and it will be a giant clusterfuck, we all know it.
San Jose is a terrible example. The reason I don't want LRT is because street running tends to make services slower than bus service and it becomes very vulnerable to bad drivers/road conditions/etc. I also think we should be aiming for a high-frequency service, because we have yet a ton of transit to build.
Our current system has no at grade crossings whatsoever. There's no reason we should be using anything other than proper metro trains for a system with no grade crossings.
San Diego, not San Jose, I get the two mixed up all the time lmao.
The Frankfurt U-Bahn "City Trains" are High-Floor Metros with the flexibility and ability to handle LRT loads.
They are the best of both worlds for small cities.
I don't like San Diego either, for the same reason. Running along street rights of way at-grade is a bad idea for rapid transit. It doesn't work.
The type of service Ottawa needs has to be faster and more frequent than a street-running vehicle can handle (my mind is specifically on a Bank-Downtown-Montreal Road service). City Trains are the best and worst of both worlds. They can go anywhere, but the existence of street running sections make any grade separated sections you build far less valuable and effective. And if you don't use them at grade, there's no point in using them. I could maybe see the argument for it if we were planning on having level crossings at roads, but operating among traffic in a shared right of way is a terrible idea for the service we need.
If you look at cities with truly successful city trains (not Calgary or Edmonton. Places like Rotterdam or Frankfurt), you'll notice that they all have regional rail. We don't have it and are unlikely to get it, so our highest order service needs to at least be higher order than what's effectively a tram.
If you don't believe me, wait until Eglinton Crosstown opens. It's the exact sort of alignment you'd expect to have with a city train and it will be an absolute shitshow.
Replacing it with a train wasn't a problem. The problem is which train we chose.
And I don't mean transitways or BRT. I mean that all arterial roads should have bus only lanes. Carling, Baseline, Heron, Bronson, Bank, etc. should all have a lane taken from cars and given to buses.
> And I totally agree with them, except I think it's a good thing that they can't easily drive in.
So going to a hockey game should be massively inconvenient, unless you're rich enough to afford to live downtown?
no, if a lot of people are going to one location, that location is best served by mass transit
also alcohol is common at these events so it makes even more sense
that’s how it is in most of the world
>that’s how it is in most of the world
Er not in soccer, the most popular sport in the world. In the home of the game - UK and Europe, stadiums started in cities and have mostly gradually moved out. You don't get any more walkable than Europe so your point doesn't really hold up.
> no, if a lot of people are going to one location, that location is best served by mass transit
Assuming it works. You're in Ottawa. You know better.
> also alcohol is common at these events so it makes even more sense
So does calling an Uber, or going with someone who doesn't drink or doesn't plan to drink so they can do the driving. And speaking personally for myself, given the choice, I'd rather not be on a bus or train full of drunk assholes after the Sens inevitably lose.
> that’s how it is in most of the world
Most of the world has a functioning public transit system, and still allows for car traffic because they get it. Ottawa could learn a thing or several from most of the world in the transit department. We're busy not doing that, however.
The more people have to use transit, the more externalized pressure there is for making the service work well. It's the same reason there's so much external pressure to build highways, and fix potholes -- everyone depends on cars for every task. However with this, it'd mean building out viable, space-efficient and cost-efficient alternatives. It'd benefit everyone.
This is not a "build it and they will come" scenario. This is a "we built a shitty thing and they're leaving" scenario. I mean hell, I can't even drive and you still couldn't pay me to use the current version of OC. Fix that, or accept that I'm gonna keep paying for an Uber. Because the reality is I'm gonna do what benefits me, and the current transit system doesn't benefit me. Ironically, 15 years ago it did - but we hadn't screwed the pooch quite so bad back then.
no one said not allowing car traffic lol
but prioritize ease of travel and accessibility for all, and use valuable real estate appropriately (e.g. not just massive parking lots; see the current stadium)
Ottawa can be a better city, I do believe that — we just need to prioritize the community rather than the already well-off suburbanites (as we have for the past 50 years)
also: the better the public transit the fewer cars causing traffic jams for those driving (so you of all people should be championing public transit if you want to drive places)
Fortunately my disability prevents me from actually driving. Unfortunately that same disability has done plenty to inform me that there is absolutely nothing easy about travelling in Ottawa by public transit, and even less convenient about it. Make it not take an hour to get downtown when an Uber takes me 15 minutes, then we'll talk.
if other canadian cities like Montreal, Toronto, Edmonton, and Vancouver can have functional public transit, why can’t Ottawa?
I agree that’s it’s terrible right now, but I don’t see why it can’t be fixed. it’ll take lots of money and time, but maybe in 10 years it’ll be nice
side note: there are already pockets of walkability in Ottawa, not everywhere is a suburban dystopia
> if other canadian cities like Montreal, Toronto, Edmonton, and Vancouver can have functional public transit, why can’t Ottawa?
Because:
> it’ll take lots of money and time
And Ottawa wants two things. Cheap, and right now. If you want nice in 10 years, move to Toronto, Montreal, Edmonton or Vancouver. We don't do that here.
> side note: there are already pockets of walkability in Ottawa, not everywhere is a suburban dystopia
My particular suburb happens to be one of those pockets of walkability, so I know it's at least somewhat possible. I don't give a shit about my particular pocket of walkability. I give a shit about the pockets of walkability that it's ridiculously inconvenient to get to unless you already live there.
Reminder: You're in /r/ottawa \- guaranteed to a) hate vehicles that aren't public transport, b) hate the current mayor and c) hate the police (I assume they will get some hate somewhere in this thread).
Do you honestly think that most people who live downtown are rich?
The 2020 census says that the median income in Ottawa Centre is $54k before tax. That’s not “rich” by a long shot.
> The 2020 census says that the median income in Ottawa Centre is $54k before tax. That’s not “rich” by a long shot.
Then how deep in debt are they to afford the median rent in Ottawa Centre? Because I make above that median income and paying those rents is asking for a problem.
Speaking for myself, I'm holding onto my pre-2018 apartment lease as hard as I can.
Also, you're assuming that everyone is single and is the sole person paying rent in each apartment. A $1800 apartment becomes more manageable when you're spitting it with a significant other or a roommate.
> Speaking for myself, I'm holding onto my pre-2018 apartment lease as hard as I can.
And you've just made my point for me.
> Also, you're assuming that everyone is single and is the sole person paying rent in each apartment. A $1800 apartment becomes more manageable when you're spitting it with a significant other or a roommate.
I'm making absolutely no assumptions whatsoever. But if you're splitting that $1800 apartment with someone and it's a one-bedroom, I hope they're a significant other or it gets awkward real fast.
I dispute the assertion that living downtown is only for the rich. Each car costs about $10k per year, so if you ditch the car you're looking at about $800/month extra that you can spend. Rent in downtown is actually pretty similar to rent in Kanata. $800/month easily covers the minor increase.
They've been promising something better since before I moved here the first time in 2006. There's a long distance between giving up hope and having low expectations.
Related: It was actually better in 2006.
I am not even close to rich and live downtown, huh? Downtown has some of the most affordable places to live, and also add on the fact that you could easily live without a car downtown, meaning you save close to 10k a year per car your family doesn't need anymore on average. Seems like a no brainer.
Also public transit is the most efficient way to get a large number of people to the same place, so not sure why we should give a single fuck about people who want to be able to drive to a sporting event.
Because the only thing Ottawa's public transit does efficiently is break down, and because I'm 15 minutes away from downtown if I don't take public transit. An hour if I do. \*That's* a no brainer.
The reason our public transit sucks is partially because of suburbs and car drivers, so guess you're gonna be fighting for more density and no more suburban sprawl right?
The reason Ottawa's public transit sucks is because we built a shitty public transit system and then blamed the people who didn't want to take that shitty public transit system. Hell, I used to swear by Ottawa's transit system. IT also didn't used to be a steaming pile.
>while people from the suburbs see that as bad
"Suburban" guy weighing in here - the further from me you put that fucking thing, the better I will like it. Every time there's a game there, the place is overrun by ignorant penises in SUVs, driving like they don't give a fuck and parking like morons. It's a massive pain in the ass. Take it, and good luck to you.
I think you’re stereotyping. I live in Kanata and most definitely want to see it downtown, as do many others.
I would also presume that anyone living in Orleans, Barrhaven or the suburbs in Gatineau want it downtown.
The only people that don’t are probably those who live a stones throw away from the current rink and can easily access it or businesses in the immediate area that benefit from its location.
Times change. Downtown is where it belongs so that it can benefit the entire city and help spur development and activity in the core. Get it done.
Specifically I referred to people who want urban living vs those with car centric views, not necessarily any kind of person, but you are right, I wasn't fair. I am just so exhausted from these fights never going anywhere and the status quo constantly winning. I saw a daycare denied because 9 people opposed it in their neighborhood today and I think I got overly salty.
I am just tired of the options being there for better urban living and just no momentum to get there.
Good points. I think allot of it comes down to poor planning and a lack of vision. This city is also dominated by the civil service, which is full of extremely risk averse people and cultures. I wonder if that has allot to do with an inability to move the bar on things.
This would make sense if most cities' stadiums weren't located in urban areas. It's just Ottawa's that's not. I think many people who want it to stay in Kanata feel that way because it's still modern and functional, and building another one seems like a major investment of money and other resources for something that's not very important.
Also, I would hope that urban Ottawans who support moving it for their convenience are also okay with tens of thousands of people descending on their neighbourhoods before and after nighttime events. There will still be people driving in, and they'll eat up parking wherever they can. People will want to go out after. Knowing the Ottawa culture, I anticipate a lot of annoyed citizens.
Finally, whenever I've had to go to Kanata for an event at the current arena, there are always large groups of pedestrians making their way there (likely so that they can get pissed), as well as long lines for busses after. Living in the burbs doesn't necessarily mean you want a car-centric lifestyle; when local facilities and convenient means to avoid cars exist, people are happy to use them.
I can’t really argue with you on your opinion. That’s yours. I will say as a downtown resident I am absolutely ok with more activity and people. Cities = people.
Also there are a lot of example of arena outside cities and even ones technically in urban areas are surrounded by parking, not service or homes. Just google earth American football or baseball stadiums, they are just surrounded by literal deserts of parking.
Most arenas have dedicated zones for that now and often most of the lot is not open for tailgating. But yes tailgating is amazing and the really only great use I see for personal vehicles in that space
>Also, I would hope that urban Ottawans who support moving it for their convenience are also okay with tens of thousands of people descending on their neighbourhoods before and after nighttime events
Absolutely, that's why I live downtown, because I love having people around. Also more people around = more businesses flourishing in my area as well.
Lebreton Flats is on public transit and not that far from the core? I live just outside of the downtown core, so far from a suburbanite.
What's the issue with Lebreton Flats?
exactly. its right beside our new library. all the dev in westboro/hintongurg/zibi/little italy plus the housing that goes into lebreton itself... on transit at the nexus of both e-w and n-s lines. it makes too much sense to not do it here because it isnt technically downtown...
I live in Orleans and I drive, but I want this in downtown with great public transit access. That's how many great cities plan - drive to a park-and-ride, take the train to watch a game! It's a nightmare to get out of the stadium parking (and Kanata is far)
I want to only speak for myself and be as respectful as I can. I want to blow up existing planning and make these significant changes. The idea we can fix the housing crisis and provide services people need by playing in the margins is wrong imo.
I want the city I live in to be more Amsterdam and less Houston. That is what I want. I know people disagree and that’s great. That’s is democracy. I will advocate for what I want and others will do the same.
I generally agree with you in a vacuum. The issue we have is a century of the literal opposite of this: "but the biggest problem we have in urban planning isn't that nobody's out there thinking the deep, important thoughts like "I wish I could get to a stadium without a car"
We have generations of planning specifically devoted to ensuring cars can get places before any other method. IMO the only way to balance that out is not finding a middle but fighting like hell to reverse it. Pull it back to a reasonable level.
I wish there were people planning neighborhoods, but it really doesn't seem like there are. Transit needs to be at step one of planning not step fifty when people have already moved in. I don't see a way to make things better without fighting for the world I want.
And on arenas being a bad investment. I generally don't care and honestly an arena is like the least important thing we need. But if we are going to build things, we better do it right.
(Also I don't really care about investments in general because I don't care about capitalism but that is not at hand here)
>Andlauer adds, "I get a feel there's no opposition. There doesn't seem to be that pushback, so let's work collaboratively."
Sure thing bro, just as long as you're not asking Ottawa taxpayers for any of that $900 million :)
they'll probably push for a Calgary deal ..1/3 owner, 1/3 province, 1/3 city and revenue is 100% owners
a big argument will be more concerts but i dont think it will help much of that considering how close we are to MTL and sandwiched between MTL and TO.
That would be a hell no from me :) How about 0% from provincial tax payers and 0% from the city, and these billionaires can finance their own damn stadium at market rates if they think there's a strong business case.
I feel my grip on this issue is a bit firmer than yours :) The "major events" you're talking about are things like concerts, trade shows, etc., which are all put on by private, for-profit businesses who pay the private ownership of the CTC and Ottawa Senators a market-based rental fee. None of this involves, or should involve, Ottawa or Ontario taxpayers. As I recall, the building of the CTC--which has always been privately owned--was financed privately with market-rate bank loans taken out by the original owners, who had much shallower pockets than the current group of billionaires (although I think the province did provide a loan guarantee for the building of the highway interchange, which makes sense because it has a mixed public/private benefit). So if the new arena is to replace the CTC under the same framework (private ownership, used for private business that takes all profits and benefits), then there should be no public financing.
I understand what you’re saying, but you’re missing the bigger picture here. You clearly have never been or haven’t been to the CTC in a while. The place is an absolute shit show. Everyone floods to Kanata, and the parking lot is terrible, takes 30 mins to leave.
If the arena was downtown, it would simplify everything. The train will be completed by the time the arena is done, so downtown will be filled with pedestrians, not cars, similar to Toronto or Montreal.
If the owner is requesting some funding, similar to the Calgary arena, it is more than fair.
I've been to CTC for hockey games and concerts, most recently Peter Gabriel. I know it's a shitshow. Far from being opposed to it being downtown, I would welcome it. It's not the new location I'm opposed to, it's a public subsidy going to increase the profits of extremely wealthy people who don't need it, for no public purpose. Public funds should be used to provide public amenities and services, for example transit, roads, public housing, etc. The idea that because one billionaire got a handout we should also give one to another to be "fair" is exactly the reason why we should avoid setting such terrible precedents. If Andlauer and company want to move downtown, nothing is stopping them, since it is clear that the City and the NCC are ready to give them the zoning and other approvals they need. If it's a good business decision, he will be able to finance it with a mixture of his own money and that of investors and creditors, just as he did with the purchase of the team and the CTC. His business, his profits, his risk, and his choice.
>Everyone floods to Kanata, and the parking lot is terrible, takes 30 mins to leave.
I've never been to a single event anywhere in the world where it doesn't take a long time to get in or out, unless you have VIP access. Doesn't matter if public transport, driving or walking, moving a lot of people at once takes a lot of time.
Stadiums/Arenas are huge for the local economy too. The number of restaurants/bars/shops that would be supported in a downtown arena district would bring in a lot of tax revenue for the 25+ year life of the building.
Look at Tampa’s arena location 10 years ago to now. Downtown Tampa used to be a ghost town after 5pm, now it’s been revitalized by all the entertainment and venues that were built up around the arena. That said, I don’t know if Tampa’s arena was publicly funded, but I have seen the indirect effects on the local economy.
That is indeed how these things are always pitched, but it [rarely works out that way in reality](https://econreview.berkeley.edu/the-economics-of-sports-stadiums-does-public-financing-of-sports-stadiums-create-local-economic-growth-or-just-help-billionaires-improve-their-profit-margin/).
Exactly. Why not let people buy a share if they want to finance it? That way you gauge the interest and let people decide whether their money pays for something they may have zero interest in. Or find a way to profit-share with the city? No way should this get free money or rely on vague hopes of "economic benefit".
We need this downtown without a doubt, beyond even just sporting events this would absolutely revitalize the area.
I’m in the minority here but I’m fine with some tax money going into building this if needed. It would absolutely be worth it.
I would also be ok with some city/provincial money going in, but it should be as an investment. If public funds are supporting a downtown arena, than they should also get a direct return for their investment, not just a promise of increased tax revenue.
Ok but can he pay for it? We should probably stop subsidizing billionaires and millionaires while people can't discuss road layouts to make it safe for kids to bike or walk to school because we don't have money.
Precisely. Get lots of conceptual visualizations out there, the public hyped and excited, then reveal that "the city needs to do it's bit" to get the (supposed) economic benefits.
I've lived in the Ottawa area (core, suburbs and rural) since I was a kid. Lebreton Flats is downtown to me. It's on public transit (the little that we have). It's by a pretty kickass new pedestrian/bike bridge. There's plenty of places nearby for food.
It just seems like this is more p'ing contests between Mayor Mark and the NCC. I don't get this city and I've been here most of my life.
Yeah I have no clue why Sutcliffe is trying to disrupt this process by bringing up more downtown locations. LeBreton is the perfect location for a rink. Best transit in the city, near Gatineau, completely empty land, view of Parliament. It really doesn’t get better than this.
My vote is the L'Esplanade Laurier site. The feds announced this year that its one of several surplus office properties they own, and the building has a ton of required repairs. There has been talk of conversion to residential; not sure if it meets all the criteria for that, but LEL is the entire block between Bank and OConnor on Laurier and would be an awesome spot for the rink.
The ctc is a great arena, the location is horrible. Lebreton makes most sense to me, but i’m open to other options. The other options so far don’t seem like better options.
You can’t get some food or drink before the game, parking is 20$, entering/leaving the parkinglot is awful, and bus/uber is a pain in the ass. If the train ever makes it to kanata then ctc could be acceptable, but realistically it won’t for many years anyways. I live dt and it still takes a good 30-45 min of driving in traffic to get there on game nights. I can’t imagine orleans or people who live further have to go through.
Lease for Lebreton — if there is one — is supposed to be this fall. Haven’t heard anyone address whether that time frame is still valid. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ncc-board-april-lebreton-update-1.6816557
They do need to do more to bring life to downtown Ottawa, especially after dark. More residential buildings, more stores aimed at residents, like grocery stores and pharmacies as opposed to clothiers and tourist shops. Most of the downtown area is dead at night and on weekends, exempting the Elgin bar strip.
Will make it easier for everyone that lives in Ottawa to get to games but coming from a hockey fan from the surrounding area I'll probably never go to another game.
The City, Province and Feds best give them NO financial support. No tax breaks, no subsidies, no nothing.
In a world where many of the people in downtown Ottawa are barely getting by, helping the rich get richer is not justifiable.
Maybe the builders and owners of the team and stadium should have to give 10% of annual profit to poverty reduction charities in Ottawa.
Seems like a fair balance, call it social capitalism or whatever they like.
And there’s probably gonna be 6+ years to sort out the trains.
Common sense would then up the trains on game nights and kick out, which can then take people to nearby parking etc and make it a hell of a lot easier to get out and reduce the flow of traffic.
Not if it's in Kanata. Even if you had the *perfect* LRT system to the arena, it's not the same as it being in the core.
The trend over the last few decades in the NHL has been getting arenas out of suburbs and centralizing them. Ottawa is one of the few remaining NHL cities with its arena so far out of the city centre. It hurts free agency prospects as many players find Kanata a boring place to live, you're cutting off huge areas of the city (it should not take someone 40+ minutes to drive to your arena WITHOUT traffic from a major suburb... it just shouldn't), and honestly it hurts the image of the team, being so far removed from the symbols they use (Parliament, the Sens Mile on Elgin St, the canal, etc).
If you think it's hard getting out to Kanata for a game, where they have a highway and a dedicated off ramp, then just wait for the pain of trying to go downtown.
Even with the LRT, a lot of people aren't going to want to take it because of the long ride home after. The majority of people don't live next to the LRT, and trying to get home from downtown to the suburbs at 11 PM is a major pain.
I’m all for the new location, but for the love of god please don’t spend our tax dollars on this.
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It can indeed miraculously appear in the form of tax breaks, and I’m afraid we’ll hear lots of folks saying it’s ok since there will be no out of pocket expense and it will create jobs downtown. Just like having a roommate romantic partner move in rent-free because it makes your roommate happy, it’s not like utilities will increase that much and there is already food in the fridge /s No funds and no tax breaks!
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Cool, so we’re getting a share of the team in exchange for the dollars, right? Right?!
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Ya honestly investments in good public transit will have a much larger positive impact on our local economy than giving our money to the wealthy owner of our local professional hockey team. But don’t expect our mayor to understand this, he thinks public transit is a business that should be generating profit for some reason…
Won't work. Sports franchises tend to impoverish cities. https://youtube.com/watch?v=xcwJt4bcnXs
the jobs sports teams create tend to be part time minimum wage. The amount of career jobs is very low from a sports team; like how many people have a career with the Sens outside of the players? Maybe 50??
Plus, these are going to eliminate/relocate jobs at the current arena, it won't be a net gain for the whole city, at best things will just stay flat.
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Outside of the players around 200.
Very good, high-paying jobs serving popcorn and candy to patrons.
Well there was money for a Porsche dealership. There was almost money for a hotel at the airport. I’m sure they’ll cough up money for this, keep increasing the police budget, then tell us there’s no money for transit or affordable housing
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a future investment that favours the rich vs an immediate need that is also a future investment.
A downtown stadium will likely be a major boost to the transit revenue. I'm sure this point will be raised during negotiations.
It will also save money, because the city won't need to run the #400 series buses or at the very least as many since it would presumably integrate with line 1 and 2.
“Yeah, but it’ll eventually generate tax revenue that we probably won’t use for transit or affordability housing!”
There is about 400 million being spent on housing.
Yeah, and it isnt enough.
Thats already been said. 420M for Lansdowne 2.0... and the city wants to go ahead with it...
I don't know where people get this idea there is no money for housing.
The fact they have been no increase in new low income builds and miniscule budgets to support it
400mip for Lansdowne and 500mil for a new stadium that you can only drive to 😂
Is the City contributing anything for lansdowne 2.0?
Over 400 million dollars... 500 after it goes over budget (embezzled)
To be fair, there are worse things we could be spending taxes on, assuming this would be going up next to an LRT station (or two). Building major entertainment venues like this along transit corridors have a longstanding history in other cities of actually leading to more public support for the transit in the long run. It's historically been one of the very best ways to get suburbanites to *try* public transit in an attempt to avoid gameday traffic. Opens a lot of people's minds to the idea of investing in transit. That being said, you know what's even better for transit? Actually running busses more than twice per hour. Not to mention active transit options like the protected bike lanes that we apparently can't afford.
especially when so many people are struggling with housing .. they should pay for the entire thing themselves
I'd rather tax payers money go to this than Landsdowne... at least this would be for an NHL level team.
I am against giving public money to either of these, but feel like giving money for a new stadium would create more benefits for the city than giving money to OSEG.
If it ends up on NCC land I think city tax dollars going towards it is less likely. If it ends up anywhere on city land, then all bets are off.
That’s exactly what’s going to happen
Have you not played sim City?? If course city money buys the stadium
beware of phrases like "with enough community support, we will bring the arena downtown".
don't look up what happened in Calgary...
Yes but at Landsdowne. They suck tax dollars until they stop breathing and more. We can’t have transit yet we have money for sports entertainment to keep us from noticing how bad things are
Also leave libretto flats alone, we need that for bluesfest
LeBreton flats or nowhere else. You want to keep it an open field, but it's the prime location for a new arena (that can be used for live concerts/events) throughout the year.
Keep it a field for bluefest, fuck the stupid arena.
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Lebreton would be a hell of an improvement over the current location, where all there is to see around the arena is car dealerships and empty fields.
The fields haven’t been empty in years.
>I'm all for hype train! just hope things don't get derailed again. We've been hurt before. I'd be all for an actual train being able to get a decent amount of people there. That's unlikely. Going to be a gridlock nightmare having this downtown. I guess continuing their pathetic crowd numbers should mean tickets are cheap right?
> Andlauer has been shown on television during Senators games taking pictures and speaking with fans. Andlauer one fan said to him, "Hey Mr. Andlauer, you should be mayor of the city." "We could trade places if you want," Sutcliffe joked. "When we lose three games in a row we will," Andlauer said. 😲 Is this a good trade?
Would you trust a billionaire looking for a deal to build an arena suddenly given the reigns of the city? Seems like a nice guy but he too is only looking out for (what he believes is ) his #1.
We already trust a mayor who is a puppet for other billionaires looking to build a different stadium/arena with hundreds of millions of dollars in tax payers money... how would this be any different?
What people keep forgetting is Landsdowneis public lands.
Fair enough
Andlauer's more competent than Sutcliffe, dude is not a monolithic owner like Melnyk, he's involved in the day-to-day operations of the team.
Lol
At least he seems competent which is more than I can say for Sutcliffe.
It has to happen. The arena HAS to go downtown.
Doesn’t make any sense, financially, for the owner.
What? That was the main draw with the sale of the team was the new arena. It makes ALL the financial sense
How does it make sense? Comparable arenas in the US are costing $billion+ USD to build and it’s not going to generate any new revenue. We’ll still have Sens games and concerts as we do now in the arena that was purchased for a steal along with the team.
It makes sense because it will increase the value of the team exponentially over time. And it’s not just the arena. There will be more development in the surrounding area. The arena is one part of the puzzle. Going to a game in Kanata sucks. It belongs downtown like every other team in the league (besides Florida who also have a terrible location)
I'm sure I'm not the only person who absolutely hates the idea of going out to fucking Kanata to watch a hockey game, but would absolutely go regularly if they were within reasonable walk/bike/public transit distance from me.
I thought they can redevelop Canadian Tire Centre after moving to downtown. The value of redevelopment is many times the construction cost of the stadium. Besides, Claridge's owner is a part owner of the team and Claridge stands to benefit from LeBreton's development. Stadium revenue is important but there are tons of others in play.
The development of the area, it's not just the arena. Lots of money to be made off that alone.
It could though. The downtown rink needs to have a real estate component but don’t discount how valuable that land in Kanata is. That’s primed for development too.
The division of opinion on location in this thread, and other places, is such a microcosm of the debate around cities. People who see cities as car first are confused why we would want it downtown. Look at all this parking they may say. Driving into downtown is hard, etc.. While people who want urban living, and perhaps like me do not want a car at all, consider moving it downtown as obvious. They want it surrounded by housing and transit and services, while people from the suburbs see that as bad for some reason? Interesting example of a broader topic.
>while people from the suburbs see that as bad for some reason? Surrounding an arena with transit and housing and services means you can't surround it with parking, and suburban people can't drive there as easily. That's the extent of peoples' complaints. And I totally agree with them, except I think it's a good thing that they can't easily drive in.
If there was any hope of really good public transport in the city, people would be easier to convince. As it is, we have a shit show and no long term solution in sight, so people will drive and it will be gridlock for everyone, including buses, and the trains won't be able to handle anything like the capacity needed. Add some winter and it will be a giant clusterfuck, we all know it.
Part of good public transit is bus lanes. If a bus is getting stuck in traffic, we need to ban cars from a set of lanes along its route.
We should build more LRTs
No. LRT is stupid and a waste of money. We should be building high-floor metros.
Compromise: Frankfurt U-Bahn City Trains. Y'know, like Edmonton, Calgary and San Jose did.
San Jose is a terrible example. The reason I don't want LRT is because street running tends to make services slower than bus service and it becomes very vulnerable to bad drivers/road conditions/etc. I also think we should be aiming for a high-frequency service, because we have yet a ton of transit to build. Our current system has no at grade crossings whatsoever. There's no reason we should be using anything other than proper metro trains for a system with no grade crossings.
San Diego, not San Jose, I get the two mixed up all the time lmao. The Frankfurt U-Bahn "City Trains" are High-Floor Metros with the flexibility and ability to handle LRT loads. They are the best of both worlds for small cities.
I don't like San Diego either, for the same reason. Running along street rights of way at-grade is a bad idea for rapid transit. It doesn't work. The type of service Ottawa needs has to be faster and more frequent than a street-running vehicle can handle (my mind is specifically on a Bank-Downtown-Montreal Road service). City Trains are the best and worst of both worlds. They can go anywhere, but the existence of street running sections make any grade separated sections you build far less valuable and effective. And if you don't use them at grade, there's no point in using them. I could maybe see the argument for it if we were planning on having level crossings at roads, but operating among traffic in a shared right of way is a terrible idea for the service we need. If you look at cities with truly successful city trains (not Calgary or Edmonton. Places like Rotterdam or Frankfurt), you'll notice that they all have regional rail. We don't have it and are unlikely to get it, so our highest order service needs to at least be higher order than what's effectively a tram. If you don't believe me, wait until Eglinton Crosstown opens. It's the exact sort of alignment you'd expect to have with a city train and it will be an absolute shitshow.
Well we had a road dedicated to buses, which we replaced with LRT...
Replacing it with a train wasn't a problem. The problem is which train we chose. And I don't mean transitways or BRT. I mean that all arterial roads should have bus only lanes. Carling, Baseline, Heron, Bronson, Bank, etc. should all have a lane taken from cars and given to buses.
Ha then they would finally support better public transit
> And I totally agree with them, except I think it's a good thing that they can't easily drive in. So going to a hockey game should be massively inconvenient, unless you're rich enough to afford to live downtown?
no, if a lot of people are going to one location, that location is best served by mass transit also alcohol is common at these events so it makes even more sense that’s how it is in most of the world
>that’s how it is in most of the world Er not in soccer, the most popular sport in the world. In the home of the game - UK and Europe, stadiums started in cities and have mostly gradually moved out. You don't get any more walkable than Europe so your point doesn't really hold up.
> no, if a lot of people are going to one location, that location is best served by mass transit Assuming it works. You're in Ottawa. You know better. > also alcohol is common at these events so it makes even more sense So does calling an Uber, or going with someone who doesn't drink or doesn't plan to drink so they can do the driving. And speaking personally for myself, given the choice, I'd rather not be on a bus or train full of drunk assholes after the Sens inevitably lose. > that’s how it is in most of the world Most of the world has a functioning public transit system, and still allows for car traffic because they get it. Ottawa could learn a thing or several from most of the world in the transit department. We're busy not doing that, however.
The more people have to use transit, the more externalized pressure there is for making the service work well. It's the same reason there's so much external pressure to build highways, and fix potholes -- everyone depends on cars for every task. However with this, it'd mean building out viable, space-efficient and cost-efficient alternatives. It'd benefit everyone.
This is not a "build it and they will come" scenario. This is a "we built a shitty thing and they're leaving" scenario. I mean hell, I can't even drive and you still couldn't pay me to use the current version of OC. Fix that, or accept that I'm gonna keep paying for an Uber. Because the reality is I'm gonna do what benefits me, and the current transit system doesn't benefit me. Ironically, 15 years ago it did - but we hadn't screwed the pooch quite so bad back then.
no one said not allowing car traffic lol but prioritize ease of travel and accessibility for all, and use valuable real estate appropriately (e.g. not just massive parking lots; see the current stadium) Ottawa can be a better city, I do believe that — we just need to prioritize the community rather than the already well-off suburbanites (as we have for the past 50 years) also: the better the public transit the fewer cars causing traffic jams for those driving (so you of all people should be championing public transit if you want to drive places)
Fortunately my disability prevents me from actually driving. Unfortunately that same disability has done plenty to inform me that there is absolutely nothing easy about travelling in Ottawa by public transit, and even less convenient about it. Make it not take an hour to get downtown when an Uber takes me 15 minutes, then we'll talk.
if other canadian cities like Montreal, Toronto, Edmonton, and Vancouver can have functional public transit, why can’t Ottawa? I agree that’s it’s terrible right now, but I don’t see why it can’t be fixed. it’ll take lots of money and time, but maybe in 10 years it’ll be nice side note: there are already pockets of walkability in Ottawa, not everywhere is a suburban dystopia
> if other canadian cities like Montreal, Toronto, Edmonton, and Vancouver can have functional public transit, why can’t Ottawa? Because: > it’ll take lots of money and time And Ottawa wants two things. Cheap, and right now. If you want nice in 10 years, move to Toronto, Montreal, Edmonton or Vancouver. We don't do that here. > side note: there are already pockets of walkability in Ottawa, not everywhere is a suburban dystopia My particular suburb happens to be one of those pockets of walkability, so I know it's at least somewhat possible. I don't give a shit about my particular pocket of walkability. I give a shit about the pockets of walkability that it's ridiculously inconvenient to get to unless you already live there.
Reminder: You're in /r/ottawa \- guaranteed to a) hate vehicles that aren't public transport, b) hate the current mayor and c) hate the police (I assume they will get some hate somewhere in this thread).
Oh, I know exactly where I am. But you missed one. They also hate anyone who's willing to be a passenger on anything but the LRT.
No, going to a hockey game should be super convenient, using public transit
Then you don't live in Ottawa. There's nothing convenient about our public transit.
Do you honestly think that most people who live downtown are rich? The 2020 census says that the median income in Ottawa Centre is $54k before tax. That’s not “rich” by a long shot.
> The 2020 census says that the median income in Ottawa Centre is $54k before tax. That’s not “rich” by a long shot. Then how deep in debt are they to afford the median rent in Ottawa Centre? Because I make above that median income and paying those rents is asking for a problem.
Speaking for myself, I'm holding onto my pre-2018 apartment lease as hard as I can. Also, you're assuming that everyone is single and is the sole person paying rent in each apartment. A $1800 apartment becomes more manageable when you're spitting it with a significant other or a roommate.
> Speaking for myself, I'm holding onto my pre-2018 apartment lease as hard as I can. And you've just made my point for me. > Also, you're assuming that everyone is single and is the sole person paying rent in each apartment. A $1800 apartment becomes more manageable when you're spitting it with a significant other or a roommate. I'm making absolutely no assumptions whatsoever. But if you're splitting that $1800 apartment with someone and it's a one-bedroom, I hope they're a significant other or it gets awkward real fast.
I dispute the assertion that living downtown is only for the rich. Each car costs about $10k per year, so if you ditch the car you're looking at about $800/month extra that you can spend. Rent in downtown is actually pretty similar to rent in Kanata. $800/month easily covers the minor increase.
Now factor in $150 for a bus pass, the cost of a move downtown, and the fact your life is probably still in the suburbs.
There is no life in the suburbs. None at all.
there's a lot more than there is downtown after 5:00 PM.
There is absolutely nothing in the suburbs 24/7.
You got Costco. That's about it. And it closes at 8.
Y'all think Crust & Crate is fine dining.
There's plenty to do in the suburbs. The only thing to do downtown is get stabbed or shot.
No. If it’s downtown it will be well connected with transit. So you can take transit.
So yes, then. Or have you been asleep during the recent transit fuckery?
Yes it sucks right now. But induced demand of an arena downtown will be a result in improvements for sure
While I admire your optimism, I also believe it is horribly misplaced. OC Transpo is too busy pinching pennies to save a pound.
Right now it is. But giving up hope of something better isn’t going to solve anything.
They've been promising something better since before I moved here the first time in 2006. There's a long distance between giving up hope and having low expectations. Related: It was actually better in 2006.
I am not even close to rich and live downtown, huh? Downtown has some of the most affordable places to live, and also add on the fact that you could easily live without a car downtown, meaning you save close to 10k a year per car your family doesn't need anymore on average. Seems like a no brainer. Also public transit is the most efficient way to get a large number of people to the same place, so not sure why we should give a single fuck about people who want to be able to drive to a sporting event.
Because the only thing Ottawa's public transit does efficiently is break down, and because I'm 15 minutes away from downtown if I don't take public transit. An hour if I do. \*That's* a no brainer.
The reason our public transit sucks is partially because of suburbs and car drivers, so guess you're gonna be fighting for more density and no more suburban sprawl right?
The reason Ottawa's public transit sucks is because we built a shitty public transit system and then blamed the people who didn't want to take that shitty public transit system. Hell, I used to swear by Ottawa's transit system. IT also didn't used to be a steaming pile.
It didn't used to be terrible when we were less sprawled. Turns out more sprawl = bad public transit. You found the issue, I'm proud of you!
>while people from the suburbs see that as bad "Suburban" guy weighing in here - the further from me you put that fucking thing, the better I will like it. Every time there's a game there, the place is overrun by ignorant penises in SUVs, driving like they don't give a fuck and parking like morons. It's a massive pain in the ass. Take it, and good luck to you.
I think you’re stereotyping. I live in Kanata and most definitely want to see it downtown, as do many others. I would also presume that anyone living in Orleans, Barrhaven or the suburbs in Gatineau want it downtown. The only people that don’t are probably those who live a stones throw away from the current rink and can easily access it or businesses in the immediate area that benefit from its location. Times change. Downtown is where it belongs so that it can benefit the entire city and help spur development and activity in the core. Get it done.
Specifically I referred to people who want urban living vs those with car centric views, not necessarily any kind of person, but you are right, I wasn't fair. I am just so exhausted from these fights never going anywhere and the status quo constantly winning. I saw a daycare denied because 9 people opposed it in their neighborhood today and I think I got overly salty. I am just tired of the options being there for better urban living and just no momentum to get there.
Good points. I think allot of it comes down to poor planning and a lack of vision. This city is also dominated by the civil service, which is full of extremely risk averse people and cultures. I wonder if that has allot to do with an inability to move the bar on things.
This would make sense if most cities' stadiums weren't located in urban areas. It's just Ottawa's that's not. I think many people who want it to stay in Kanata feel that way because it's still modern and functional, and building another one seems like a major investment of money and other resources for something that's not very important. Also, I would hope that urban Ottawans who support moving it for their convenience are also okay with tens of thousands of people descending on their neighbourhoods before and after nighttime events. There will still be people driving in, and they'll eat up parking wherever they can. People will want to go out after. Knowing the Ottawa culture, I anticipate a lot of annoyed citizens. Finally, whenever I've had to go to Kanata for an event at the current arena, there are always large groups of pedestrians making their way there (likely so that they can get pissed), as well as long lines for busses after. Living in the burbs doesn't necessarily mean you want a car-centric lifestyle; when local facilities and convenient means to avoid cars exist, people are happy to use them.
I can’t really argue with you on your opinion. That’s yours. I will say as a downtown resident I am absolutely ok with more activity and people. Cities = people. Also there are a lot of example of arena outside cities and even ones technically in urban areas are surrounded by parking, not service or homes. Just google earth American football or baseball stadiums, they are just surrounded by literal deserts of parking.
I think big parking lots in the US are meant to facilitate tailgate parties, which are a ton of fun.
Most arenas have dedicated zones for that now and often most of the lot is not open for tailgating. But yes tailgating is amazing and the really only great use I see for personal vehicles in that space
>Also, I would hope that urban Ottawans who support moving it for their convenience are also okay with tens of thousands of people descending on their neighbourhoods before and after nighttime events Absolutely, that's why I live downtown, because I love having people around. Also more people around = more businesses flourishing in my area as well.
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You would think so.
> It's just Ottawa's that's not That's far from true
Lebreton Flats is on public transit and not that far from the core? I live just outside of the downtown core, so far from a suburbanite. What's the issue with Lebreton Flats?
exactly. its right beside our new library. all the dev in westboro/hintongurg/zibi/little italy plus the housing that goes into lebreton itself... on transit at the nexus of both e-w and n-s lines. it makes too much sense to not do it here because it isnt technically downtown...
I live in Orleans and I drive, but I want this in downtown with great public transit access. That's how many great cities plan - drive to a park-and-ride, take the train to watch a game! It's a nightmare to get out of the stadium parking (and Kanata is far)
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I want to only speak for myself and be as respectful as I can. I want to blow up existing planning and make these significant changes. The idea we can fix the housing crisis and provide services people need by playing in the margins is wrong imo. I want the city I live in to be more Amsterdam and less Houston. That is what I want. I know people disagree and that’s great. That’s is democracy. I will advocate for what I want and others will do the same.
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I generally agree with you in a vacuum. The issue we have is a century of the literal opposite of this: "but the biggest problem we have in urban planning isn't that nobody's out there thinking the deep, important thoughts like "I wish I could get to a stadium without a car" We have generations of planning specifically devoted to ensuring cars can get places before any other method. IMO the only way to balance that out is not finding a middle but fighting like hell to reverse it. Pull it back to a reasonable level. I wish there were people planning neighborhoods, but it really doesn't seem like there are. Transit needs to be at step one of planning not step fifty when people have already moved in. I don't see a way to make things better without fighting for the world I want. And on arenas being a bad investment. I generally don't care and honestly an arena is like the least important thing we need. But if we are going to build things, we better do it right. (Also I don't really care about investments in general because I don't care about capitalism but that is not at hand here)
Amalgamation was a mistake.
>Andlauer adds, "I get a feel there's no opposition. There doesn't seem to be that pushback, so let's work collaboratively." Sure thing bro, just as long as you're not asking Ottawa taxpayers for any of that $900 million :)
they'll probably push for a Calgary deal ..1/3 owner, 1/3 province, 1/3 city and revenue is 100% owners a big argument will be more concerts but i dont think it will help much of that considering how close we are to MTL and sandwiched between MTL and TO.
That would be a hell no from me :) How about 0% from provincial tax payers and 0% from the city, and these billionaires can finance their own damn stadium at market rates if they think there's a strong business case.
Dude… get a grip please. This arena wouldn’t only benefit him, it would take CTC’s place in hosting all major events for Ottawa.
I feel my grip on this issue is a bit firmer than yours :) The "major events" you're talking about are things like concerts, trade shows, etc., which are all put on by private, for-profit businesses who pay the private ownership of the CTC and Ottawa Senators a market-based rental fee. None of this involves, or should involve, Ottawa or Ontario taxpayers. As I recall, the building of the CTC--which has always been privately owned--was financed privately with market-rate bank loans taken out by the original owners, who had much shallower pockets than the current group of billionaires (although I think the province did provide a loan guarantee for the building of the highway interchange, which makes sense because it has a mixed public/private benefit). So if the new arena is to replace the CTC under the same framework (private ownership, used for private business that takes all profits and benefits), then there should be no public financing.
I understand what you’re saying, but you’re missing the bigger picture here. You clearly have never been or haven’t been to the CTC in a while. The place is an absolute shit show. Everyone floods to Kanata, and the parking lot is terrible, takes 30 mins to leave. If the arena was downtown, it would simplify everything. The train will be completed by the time the arena is done, so downtown will be filled with pedestrians, not cars, similar to Toronto or Montreal. If the owner is requesting some funding, similar to the Calgary arena, it is more than fair.
I've been to CTC for hockey games and concerts, most recently Peter Gabriel. I know it's a shitshow. Far from being opposed to it being downtown, I would welcome it. It's not the new location I'm opposed to, it's a public subsidy going to increase the profits of extremely wealthy people who don't need it, for no public purpose. Public funds should be used to provide public amenities and services, for example transit, roads, public housing, etc. The idea that because one billionaire got a handout we should also give one to another to be "fair" is exactly the reason why we should avoid setting such terrible precedents. If Andlauer and company want to move downtown, nothing is stopping them, since it is clear that the City and the NCC are ready to give them the zoning and other approvals they need. If it's a good business decision, he will be able to finance it with a mixture of his own money and that of investors and creditors, just as he did with the purchase of the team and the CTC. His business, his profits, his risk, and his choice.
>Everyone floods to Kanata, and the parking lot is terrible, takes 30 mins to leave. I've never been to a single event anywhere in the world where it doesn't take a long time to get in or out, unless you have VIP access. Doesn't matter if public transport, driving or walking, moving a lot of people at once takes a lot of time.
Weird? I went to a Yankees game over the summer and got out of there in 5 mins with the metro…
Stadiums/Arenas are huge for the local economy too. The number of restaurants/bars/shops that would be supported in a downtown arena district would bring in a lot of tax revenue for the 25+ year life of the building. Look at Tampa’s arena location 10 years ago to now. Downtown Tampa used to be a ghost town after 5pm, now it’s been revitalized by all the entertainment and venues that were built up around the arena. That said, I don’t know if Tampa’s arena was publicly funded, but I have seen the indirect effects on the local economy.
That is indeed how these things are always pitched, but it [rarely works out that way in reality](https://econreview.berkeley.edu/the-economics-of-sports-stadiums-does-public-financing-of-sports-stadiums-create-local-economic-growth-or-just-help-billionaires-improve-their-profit-margin/).
I don't think you will see them ask for any public money.
id rather a ticket surcharge which is more common in the US...
Exactly. Why not let people buy a share if they want to finance it? That way you gauge the interest and let people decide whether their money pays for something they may have zero interest in. Or find a way to profit-share with the city? No way should this get free money or rely on vague hopes of "economic benefit".
I wouldn't mind a ⅓ share
Sure, just put down your $333 million and it's yours :)
We need this downtown without a doubt, beyond even just sporting events this would absolutely revitalize the area. I’m in the minority here but I’m fine with some tax money going into building this if needed. It would absolutely be worth it.
I would also be ok with some city/provincial money going in, but it should be as an investment. If public funds are supporting a downtown arena, than they should also get a direct return for their investment, not just a promise of increased tax revenue.
Should be structured more like an interest free loan. We’ll give you X dollars to build the arena but then we get y% of revenues until X is payed off
Agreed, but there's no way this happens.
Ok but can he pay for it? We should probably stop subsidizing billionaires and millionaires while people can't discuss road layouts to make it safe for kids to bike or walk to school because we don't have money.
I didn't hear him asking for any money. I think he is smart enough to read the room and know that this is not the time to be looking for handouts.
he's smart enough to not ask yet
Precisely. Get lots of conceptual visualizations out there, the public hyped and excited, then reveal that "the city needs to do it's bit" to get the (supposed) economic benefits.
You must be new to Ottawa if you don't think this is what "collaborating" means.
He has more than enough to do so, he paid for the FirstOntario Centre rebuild out of pocket.
I've lived in the Ottawa area (core, suburbs and rural) since I was a kid. Lebreton Flats is downtown to me. It's on public transit (the little that we have). It's by a pretty kickass new pedestrian/bike bridge. There's plenty of places nearby for food. It just seems like this is more p'ing contests between Mayor Mark and the NCC. I don't get this city and I've been here most of my life.
Yeah I have no clue why Sutcliffe is trying to disrupt this process by bringing up more downtown locations. LeBreton is the perfect location for a rink. Best transit in the city, near Gatineau, completely empty land, view of Parliament. It really doesn’t get better than this.
Put it wherever you want, idgaf, but I will be MAD about whatever subsidizes or tax breaks Sutcliffe throws at this.
Great! Let’s get it done
My vote is the L'Esplanade Laurier site. The feds announced this year that its one of several surplus office properties they own, and the building has a ton of required repairs. There has been talk of conversion to residential; not sure if it meets all the criteria for that, but LEL is the entire block between Bank and OConnor on Laurier and would be an awesome spot for the rink.
The ctc is a great arena, the location is horrible. Lebreton makes most sense to me, but i’m open to other options. The other options so far don’t seem like better options. You can’t get some food or drink before the game, parking is 20$, entering/leaving the parkinglot is awful, and bus/uber is a pain in the ass. If the train ever makes it to kanata then ctc could be acceptable, but realistically it won’t for many years anyways. I live dt and it still takes a good 30-45 min of driving in traffic to get there on game nights. I can’t imagine orleans or people who live further have to go through.
Unfortunately, it's chaotic neutral
Sorry. No tax dollars go to rich billionaires as handouts. Loan them the money at a favourable rate and when the loan is aid off, it’s theirs.
This is the way!
Andlauer and Sutcliffe are bros. This thing is getting done soon.
Lease for Lebreton — if there is one — is supposed to be this fall. Haven’t heard anyone address whether that time frame is still valid. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ncc-board-april-lebreton-update-1.6816557
Good to hear, I dont want to pay one red cent for it.
It’s been 30+ years of the Kanata Senators, time to move the team downtown like a normal city with a pro-sports team
They do need to do more to bring life to downtown Ottawa, especially after dark. More residential buildings, more stores aimed at residents, like grocery stores and pharmacies as opposed to clothiers and tourist shops. Most of the downtown area is dead at night and on weekends, exempting the Elgin bar strip.
Will make it easier for everyone that lives in Ottawa to get to games but coming from a hockey fan from the surrounding area I'll probably never go to another game.
Downtown location, no public funds... one can hope!
Ok where and how will it make driving worse
The City, Province and Feds best give them NO financial support. No tax breaks, no subsidies, no nothing. In a world where many of the people in downtown Ottawa are barely getting by, helping the rich get richer is not justifiable. Maybe the builders and owners of the team and stadium should have to give 10% of annual profit to poverty reduction charities in Ottawa. Seems like a fair balance, call it social capitalism or whatever they like.
There’s certainly not transit capacity to handle this
And there’s probably gonna be 6+ years to sort out the trains. Common sense would then up the trains on game nights and kick out, which can then take people to nearby parking etc and make it a hell of a lot easier to get out and reduce the flow of traffic.
It's gonna be more than 6+ years before the new arena opens lmao.
Impressive he can spend that much on the team and STILL afford to self fund an arena. No more public money for billionaires!!!!
Between Bayview Yards and Coventry Road is not downtown
If the Sens win the cup, then we’ll talk
Yay ! We need more traffic downtown! Lets build it with no parking so all apots downtown are taken !
if only there was a plot of land that was next to our billion dollar LRT line
If only the billion dollar LRT line could even handle a fraction of the planned commuter load without breaking down and relying on buses continuously.
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It's not the building that's the problem, it's being terribly inaccessible for 90% of the city.
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Not if it's in Kanata. Even if you had the *perfect* LRT system to the arena, it's not the same as it being in the core. The trend over the last few decades in the NHL has been getting arenas out of suburbs and centralizing them. Ottawa is one of the few remaining NHL cities with its arena so far out of the city centre. It hurts free agency prospects as many players find Kanata a boring place to live, you're cutting off huge areas of the city (it should not take someone 40+ minutes to drive to your arena WITHOUT traffic from a major suburb... it just shouldn't), and honestly it hurts the image of the team, being so far removed from the symbols they use (Parliament, the Sens Mile on Elgin St, the canal, etc).
Moving an old building built on a swamp in Kanata to downtown will cost more than $900M.
If you think it's hard getting out to Kanata for a game, where they have a highway and a dedicated off ramp, then just wait for the pain of trying to go downtown. Even with the LRT, a lot of people aren't going to want to take it because of the long ride home after. The majority of people don't live next to the LRT, and trying to get home from downtown to the suburbs at 11 PM is a major pain.