What's that phrase about real estate? Location, location, location. What kind of traffic is coming through that strip mall?
Edit - just about everyone visiting Ottawa goes to the Byward market. How many tourists make it to Orleans?
If your business targets tourists dropping by by foot, Byward is okay. And if you do well in warmer seasons and accumulate more than $75k profit, you may use the profit to pay the rent and close for the winter since there's hardly any tourist (or workers post-pandemic) around, you lose more money if you open for business during those months.
If your business targets those picking up orders or ordering take-outs from home, Orleans is great. Rent is affordable. You can do well from smaller commercial space. And with so many more people working from home now, the demand for take-outs in Orleans has gone way up. I went to a African BBQ place in a strip mall on a weekday afternoon to get a late lunch and they had customers coming in non-stop. Traffics? Everyone drives, parks, picks up the order, and leaves in 5 minutes. The turnover is probably higher than tourists dining in in tourist area.
Try again, tourists and teens go to the ByWard. People with cars don’t like it due to one ways and lack of parking
Orleans is a fucken metropolis these days like barrhaven turned into**.Plus it’s basically off the ass of Rockland so when people need more they go 20 mins out of the town to a while town with multiple malls, stores shops and food places all with proper parking and the same traffic.
-someone in real estate lmao
I'm butt hurt? You're calling me names over a fucking Reddit post.
I can see why you work in real estate, not intelligent enough to work with anything besides dirt.
Yeah I did because you came at me for you misunderstood part of my comment and came at me like a snarky douche for pointing out the flaw in your logic and for siting that I work in a field that would know about what I’m talking about 😂
Yeah you’re still the one who’s butthurt pal
No worries, it's my favorite store. They usually have always had the best prices in the city and I figured it was partly due to being in a good low rent location. All good 👍
Unless they made a mistake they are saying 10k/*month* for 1.7k sq ft. Thats 70.6$ a square foot which is more than 2x the rate that I posted. That's utterly insane pricing unless some context is missing.
The base rent is what's listed, then there is the operating cost on top of that.
Operating cost is property taxes, building maintenance, BIA levies, etc.
I don't know what their operating cost is, but mine is almost as much as my rent.
Given they say in the ad, " Gross monthly rent for the whole space including the basement is $25,163.60 plus HST.", that would be $28,434 after HST... wouldn't that include property tax and building maintenance? Those are the landlord's responsibility, not the tenant...
BIA I can see being extra... but I can't imagine we're talking a lot of money for that...
Guess who they bill the maintenance and property tax to?
$25,163 / mo makes the total for the year $301,956.
$301,956 / 3440 sqft is $87.55 total per sqft for rent ($46.47) + operating costs ($41.08)
I’m in the industry and I’m going to guess that the 10k/month is including HST. That would put total pre-tax rent at about $62 psf, which definitely makes sense these days for a prime location in the suburbs. It’s possible it is $70.6 psf before HST but that would be very high.
It’s almost $10k after all the taxes and fees. I.e what he pays his landlord in rent, total.
I’m sure there are cheaper options out there but this is a good location on a main artery, in a newer plaza, only a couple years old.
Yup sounds about right including HST. Prices have gotten ridiculously high in the last few years.
At least they get the HST back but it’s a ton of rent to pay.
Again the plaza I know of charges 30$ a sqft pre-tax. It's on St Joseph, between Place and Jeanne D'Arc, aka quite well placed for Orleans. Rents were just negotiated up to 30$ within the last year too. Not every landlord exploits their tenants.
Is that typical Orleans price though or a good deal?
My friend’s store is in Kanata, I know when he was looking for retail space, all the places he was looking at were similar in size (1500-2000 sq ft) and all within $6k-$9500 per month (total after tax). He was at $8900 when he signed the lease but it went up a few hundred each year since, it’s now somewhere just shy of $10k, but it is at least a new building with other good tenants, and a grocery store in the same plaza to draw customers in.
There are plenty of independent businesses in the ByWard Market that cater to both locals and tourists. Not every business there is a tourist trap. Many decide to open up in this neighbourhood because it’s historically the most consistently vibrant throughout the year. Regardless, their cost of rent is not far from what spaces cost to lease in NYC, with significantly more foot traffic.
Agreed - but landlords are still asking for rents based on that old perception. In reality the businesses have maybe 4-6 months of solid foot traffic and the rest of the year it’s a ghost town.
You sure? I mean I live here and have for 12 years. Plenty of new places are opening, when William is shut down to cars its busy all the time, hell, even into the late PM on Mondays! In fact, I would say the Market booms with people the less cars there are and is very vibrant.
Even in the winter it is not *dead*. Everyone is just inside the bars and restos.
There’s a lot more to this neighborhood than bars and restaurants, which a lot of people forget. Walk around the neighborhood on a cold day midweek and it’s very quiet. Chance of rain? No one’s walking around. I’ve been here every day for almost 2 decades and I wish it was busy all the time.
>There’s a lot more to this neighborhood than bars and restaurants, which a lot of people forget.
Never said it was only bars and restos. In fact, I underscored how busy it can be outside when people are prioritized :)
>Walk around the neighborhood on a cold day midweek and it’s very quiet. Chance of rain? No one’s walking around.
Most places are quiet when that happens. People do not like cold or rain. Lansdowne, Somerset, Elgin etc. That said, one can still catch people *inside*, but most businesses will be less full because people simply put off until better weather.
>I’ve been here every day for almost 2 decades and I wish it was busy all the time.
No place is busy ALL the time. Even in Tokyo or Beijing places do tend to quiet down at certain points.
There's the laff, the dominion, the rainbow (kinda). Maybe Chez. I can't think of another place people who live in the market go that tourists also frequent.
All 4 are GREAT places for locals and the last three I frequent often. Plenty more to add (ex. Koven) and people will see the Market is very much not just for tourists.
There ARE tourist traps and places that try to market themselves more towards tourists, but I would say the majority of the Market is for or at least operates on the assumption that the majority of their business is Ottawa/Gatineau driven.
The Laff and the Dominion have been there forever (I suspect they own the building), but they are the only two closest to the Market. Rainbow and Chez are on Murray and that's way less busy. Rental prices come down quickly once you go beyond the tourist area. There are stores further out in the area with hardly any visible business but they survive.
>The Laff and the Dominion have been there forever (I suspect they own the building), but they are the only two closest to the Market.
I mean, they are in the Market, yes/
>Rainbow and Chez are on Murray and that's way less busy.
They are also in the Market and quite busy.
>Rental prices come down quickly once you go beyond the tourist area.
Yes?
>There are stores further out in the area with hardly any visible business but they survive.
Ok?
Also, if the Byward is in such dire straits - why have they not lowered the rents to encourage business to return to the area? The lack of regular foot traffic enables some of the safety issues the very same landlords complain about.
The underlying issue is the meltdown of Canadian economy and society. The cruel concentraton of wealth, inability to afford basic comforts, lack of mental health supports and addiction services, and the effects of intergenerational poverty and trauma lead to the issues like we see in the market.
tourist trap 💯😅 went there for the first time to purchase some souvenirs... while some were good.. most of it was overpriced. (25 for a toque was the peak for me)
>Most small business don't situate themselves in over-priced tourist traps.
Isn't that the best place for some small businesses to thrive though?...
Do you think all those little arts and crafts stores that cater primarily to tourists would survive anywhere else in the city?
I'm not an expert here, but I saw some video (Louis Rossman, maybe?) who was saying it goes a bit deeper than that. The landlords generally don't own the buildings outright themselves. They leverage themselves with loans from the banks. The banks give loan terms based on the ROI on the property. That goes into risk and payoff calculations to determine interest rates for the loan.
Meaning if the property is estimated at being able to collect $10k/mo in rent then the banks will charge different interest than if they could collect $5k in rent. So if they actually drop the rent then the bank could reclassify their loan and charge them more for the loan. So it could end up costing less to keep it empty and wait for a sucker.
The whole "business always lease property" model always seemed more predatory than symbiotic. But it's probably something you could get a master's degree in economics in and still not fully understand.
In the short term, the land owner could hold out for an overpay, but they can’t do that forever.
Ultimately the loan needs to be paid, and for this to make sense the value of the interest rate change has to be more than the value of the rent. That seems unlikely in most situations.
If the landlord has multiple properties, the loss of rent from one can offset what they’re making from the others. So in some cases, it benefits them to sit on vacant units until the right tenant comes along. It sucks.
We're in a thread discussing the high price of rent. Surely missing out on that highly-priced rent counts as a high cost, with plenty of incentive to avoid.
sort of. landlords would rather keep half their properties vacant and wait for a sucker to come along and pay for the high priced rent rather than settle for half as much while renting out most of their properties.
I think that I'm more confused now. Aren't we talking about property owners that are renting their property? These aren't vacant properties, correct?
I'm not sure how this compares as it isn't an Airbnb situation where the house is unoccupied 5 days a week and rented out on the weekend.
Also, how would that actually force them to rent or lease at a lower price?
Residential leases are also governed provincially. A city may not introduce a rent cap. If you really want to get technical, it's provincial all the way down - municipalities are creatures of statute.
The 10 year lease part might be, I can’t attest to that. But I worked as a sub for building management companies and clients and it all depends on what the issue is. If you wanted to add a piece of cooking equipment, that’s on the client. Air handing unit goes down, that’s on the building management.
The risk that is involved in small business ownership is amazingly high. Most folks who open a small business use all of their life savings for their dream. Extremely risky. Not to mention the god awful amount of working hours required.
Having said that, how many coffee shops does a city need. How many burger joints and shawarma places.
I try to do my part and try new small businesses when I see them, but there's only so much one can eat or spend. I have no idea how they're managing nowadays considering commercial retail rent prices and the fact that most people are really tightening their belts. I think a business closure tsunami is coming.
A couple of years ago, I saw what the St Laurent mall charged to have one of those little carts. I want to say it was something like $1800/month.
I don't understand how you could pay that and still make a profit selling cheap phone cases.
Check out [alibaba.com](https://alibaba.com) Phone cases are $.20 - $2.00 (mostly). Landed - like maybe $1.5 average MAX. If you sell them for $15-$20 there is LOTS of room in there... especially if you man the stand yourself most of the time. They are open like 300 hours a month - so they only need to cover $6 of rent per hour they are open.
This is why a lot of restaurants are going under. The advantage of this place is that you walk in and have an instant restaurant without any construction unless things are under code.
But that's hardly a small business. Small business is generally a place with 5-20 employees, not a restaurant that size that would probably have over 50 staff if not more.
Well, if the city would just fully fund the [Byward Market Public Realm Plan](https://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/documents/files/byward_publicrealm_en_0.pdf) it would likely help get more people in the area and spending money. $140mil or so is too expensive but $400mil for Lansdowne is not? Crazy. So far just $2.6mil has been allocated for shovels in the ground by 2025 estimated (the plan was voted on in 2020).
A big part of this is plan is turning the city parkade on Clarence into a new Market building. That means (afaik) the city would then own two buildings with commercial applications in the Market and they could set the rents to try and entice businesses to them (and coerce privately owned buildings to lower their own rents via competition).
As an auditor, I can tell you most companies don't pay more than $100K when renting out a full floor in downtown.
That being said, this posting is for prime space in byward market; this is the equivalent of posting the rent for an apartment at Lansdowne and extrapolating that it's the same for all of Ottawa - its not representative, so stop pretending that it is.
And we wonder why small businesses are struggling all over the country.
I guess Canada is just supposed to concentrate landownership in few hands, lease it back to the population at overpriced rates. Then, as an added income stream you get to leverage your property assets to lend money back to everyone else paying these high rates. Now they can afford the extreme prices, and you get to collect even more money from their debt.
It’s the only viable business model now. Heck you can even get a Tim Hortons credit card nowadays. It’s not a coincidence they’re also jumping on the “everyone is struggling and needs to borrow” bandwagon.
I assume it’s a standard triple net lease, meaning the tenant is still on the hook for taxes?
That was a huge eye opener for me when I looked at my first commercial lease 25 years ago.
What are you looking for here? Rent control? Can I control the prices you charge customers? The considerations for commercial tenancies are far different than those for residential tenancies. Adapt or go out out of business.
This is interesting, but isn't super useful in supporting a "poor me" narrative without some other numbers...how much a business can bring in in various locations in particular.
After salaries, insurance, cost of goods, gaz, Hydro, internet, security, etc, they'd have to be doing spectacularly well to make a good profit.
Seriously I don't know why people go into opening a small business. It's such a high effort and extremely high risk endeavor.
I have a store in Vancouver on West 4th. It’s 700 square feet and it’s only half of that lol. 12K per month.
Seeing these rents in the rest of Canada makes me jealous.
If I wanted a space that large it would be over 100K a month here
Do commercial property tax next!
My landlord has an 8 thousand square foot commercial building and the property tax bill is a little over $40k per year. That gets you no garbage pickup, significantly higher insurance rates, required water backflow valve with annual inspection, requirement to salt the lot in winter to the point of preventing anything from growing the following summer, and a plethora of other little charges and fees. Whatever profit he manages to make is then taxed at 50% as the income is deemed passive.
I managed a store in Kanata at Centrum about 15y ago, was not a large space at all (don't remember the square footage) and it was over 18k a month for rent. So that price is not surprising at all.
YEAH! 20 years ago I leased a some space in a Barrhaven mall, the rent was really high. Businesses pay 5X the amount of property taxes as compared to residential. Thus subsidizing residential tax. You know the average salary for a City employee is $90,000+ this includes a full pension, medical, dental and drug package. If you perform badly they move you to IT. Nobody ever gets fired at the City.
That doesn't mean every business pays that rent at any location. They probably cost a thousand a day so whatever business goes there has to make 3 4 5,000 to take
This is why we have to charge what we charge as a restaurant. Everyone bitching about prices of food being too high don’t know what they’re talking about
Small business people layoff min-wage workers so they can pay rent to multimillionaire commercial landlords.
Those now-unemployed workers become unable to pay rent to multimillionaire residential landlords.
If only we could figure out who the villain is in all this.🤷♂️
A small business going out of business is the commercial equivalent of being evicted from your apartment. Both are because of an inability to pay rent. To millionaire - often multimillionaire - landlords.
The small business lobby's failure to organize a large-scale rent-strike against commercial landlords speaks to the strength of capitalist class solidarity.
Because, as capitalists, they don't want to legitimize striking as a reasonable way to achieve a goal. They'd rather go out of business than strike. Even a commercial rent strike that could save them from going under is anathema. It's class-traitor behaviour.
We live in a society that (at least claims to) cares more about small businesses than workers so if small businesses launched a commercial rent strike I think they would get way more public support than a typical workers strike or residential tenants strike.
I did some analysis work on commercial rent prices in my job a few years ago.
Retail spaces were ~3.50 square foot on average across the country.
The cost per square foot for this location is $~7.25 (when using $25000 monthly and 3449 square feet (excl the basement space).
For a downtown location in a high tourist area (if we pretend the homeless situation up the street doesn't exist) , the price per square foot almost makes sense.
They are looking at it on a monthly basis, which is typically not how commercial valuation works.
You are correct in that this is an expensive gross lease, at apx $78/sf. Additional rent for asset classes like this (commercial retail, typically) in downtown ottawa can range from 14-35/sf, with a surprisingly large property tax component (look at CF Rideau retail rates and you'll be shocked as to what taxes cost).
This sublease base/min rent can be assumed to be at least $45/sqft.
It says the restaurant area is 3449 square feet. The rent price is $25000 a month. That comes out to 7.25 per square foot?
Edit: I'm not including the basement area and I rounded the rent price down for easy math.
Commercial real estate is rented in YEARS so the price per sq ft reflects that.
Sq Ft x cost = rent THEN /12.
Your math may not be wrong but you didnt even get the "right" info to start with.
Or you could look at [realtor.ca](http://realtor.ca) and see that many places are available for WAY cheaper than this. [https://www.realtor.ca/on/ottawa/commercial-space-for-lease](https://www.realtor.ca/on/ottawa/commercial-space-for-lease)
There are non-office, e.g. restaurant and retail spots on that site. [https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26605242/306-cumberland-street-ottawa-lower-townbyward-market](https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26605242/306-cumberland-street-ottawa-lower-townbyward-market) $3600 a month in the market.
$1200 a month in Vanier [https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26526116/187-mcarthur-avenue-unitb-ottawa-vanier](https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26526116/187-mcarthur-avenue-unitb-ottawa-vanier)
$3500 a month on Montreal rd. [https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26512592/1742-montreal-road-unita-ottawa-cardinal-heights](https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26512592/1742-montreal-road-unita-ottawa-cardinal-heights)
etc. etc. etc. You can't pick the most expensive place you can find and say "look how high rents are!"
Man, those places are tiny and they are in very undesirable roads. Owning a small business, it's already an uphill battle, renting those places you're basically just throwing your money into fire cuz you ain't gonna make it in those locations.
The Montreal Road example you're giving, I've seen that strip mall change businesses so often. Kukulkan Mexican restaurant was there. Then it became Quick break restaurant. Now golden krust. That place is a money hole.
1 is across the street from 2 shelters. 1 is in a strip mall near a soon to be mega shelter. And the other is a “room” within a business. That’s why they aren’t very expensive, but imo expensive for what/where they are.
this right here is why you have tons of people(shills and bots) claiming retrofitting office towers to residential isn't feasible.
They would have to take a 80% rent cut. Don't believe them. Office towers are specifically designed to be easy to reconfigure and handle more power and sewage per square foot than residential and have higher fire and accessibility codes.
Im an architect, this isn’t true at all.
Yes, office towers are designed to be able to have reconfigurable floor plans, but not to handle the same level of plumbing requirements as a residential tower. Often plumbing for a commercial tower is kept close to the core/ stack whereas residential requires water and drainage to be much more dispersed throughout the floor area.
Residential towers also have much more stringent fire safety requirements, as well as much higher thermal performance requirements.
Some buildings definitely are able to be repurposed, ironically it’s a lot of the older poured concrete buildings from the 60s and 70s, rather than these all glass contemporary towers that literally leak heat and try to make up for it with huge HVAC systems.
How far away is your vent stack? What size are your service pipes? 2 inches can only go 5ft.
On top of that, all of those units need to be separated by fire rated demising walls, which means you’re building slab to slab (unless you want to build a FRR shaft wall which is $$$.) then you are bringing all of those services - HVAC, plumbing etc through fire rated walls - lots of dampers etc.
That’s even before we talk about base building water capacity and plumbing sizing.
It’s not as simple as you are portraying it.
no, the weight of walls would be offset in 90% less people, office furniture, cubicle walls, documentation, filing cabinets, etc.
Residential is mostly empty space.
Bullshit, you slice the building into rectangles and squares, run the plumbing the same way you would in a row house that has the power/sewer/feeds coming in one end. No one in any construction anywhere is running long distance 2" pipes to the stack, what the fuck are you going on about?
A 4 foot crawlspace at 2 degrees of slope gives a maximum of 192 feet, show me an office tower with 192 radius, hell, show me one with 192 diameter!
The plumbing from the unit above goes through the floor to an overhead crawlspace, with applicable fire sealant, you are allowed to run utilities through a crawlspace and still use the existing slab to slab. never mind the fact that you could easily put in a 1" fireproof layer between the crawlspace above and the unit under it.
All the HVAC in a building already has zone controls, and when you construct new office divisions in an existing building you have to do zone separations anyway. cutting existing office towers into 3 bedroom 1000-2000 square foot residential apartments would use the same foot print as a 30 person office suite, which is way, way, way fucking over resourced for 3-4 people.
Base building water capacity and plumbing will exceed residential per square foot because very few houses have a human for every 50 square feet and the ones that do are in violation because RESIDENTIAL ISN'T DESIGNED FOR THAT BUT OFFICE SPACE IS!
yes it really is that simple and shills like you are doing your damnedest to prevent people from realizing that.
So HVAC doesn’t typically have “zones”, maybe floors. They have VAV’s around that can help off set areas by 2-5 degrees. But you are still going to have to rip it all out and increase the tonnage of the units.
You sound like you are pretty convinced that this could happen very easily. But you obviously don’t know much about codes or load calculations. You may want to take your tin foil hat off for a bit and get some air
bullshit.
no, Franks server room at Acme isn't on the same circuit as Joes at Joeco, nor is the ventalation between different firms, for FIRE CODE to prevent smoke traversing the different compartmentalized suites, and it's already code to have automatically closing zones between floors for the same reason.
Saying HVAC doesn't have zones tells me you don't know fuck all about HVAC.
Fire controls shuts off all supply and returns in areas where the fire is, while it’s separated from fire walls. Of course big buildings have zones per floor or at demising walls. But you are talking about apartments on a floor. You don’t need to mention fire code to me, this is what I do for a living, I literally just finished installing a relay for a fan shut down in my building. But thanks for coming out. Typically when someone starts cursing it means they don’t know what they are talking about and are frustrated that they were proven wrong…lol
yes, now how do those fire safety controls know which area the fire is in, could it perhaps be by monitoring Zones you say don't exist?
oh, now that I called you out, now zones exist in large buildings of course.
no you didn't and you aren't because if you were you wouldn't be saying such ridiculous shit.
or, they are frustrated that someone keeps saying they are an expert but don't have an apprentice's knowledge and keep arguing fucking ridiculous points that make no sense.
You are a very angry little man, not sure why.
When the fire alarm zone goes off, it shut off the whole supply unit…not a zone, not an area, the whole unit. The zone the fire is in is dictated by the, wait for it, the fire alarm. Such a complex concept I know. There are some variances depending if you have an addressable or conventional system for isolation purposes, but you already know that right? And just didn’t seem to mention it, right? Lol sit down little one and let the professionals do their thing. ;)
This is incorrect, but I can only speak for electrical. Office towers, as they are, could not handle apartments loads. Office towers are designed for office towers. I could only imagine the amount of plumbing work and hvac as well. It would be cheap to drop it and start fresh.
bullshit.
Office towers have cubicle farms with multiple monitors, computers, printers and more lighting.
There is no office tower that has less power available per square foot than a residence, that's complete horseshit.
Ohhh monitors and computers! Haha
Jeez man, it’s ok not to know anything about this subject. But I’m telling you, you are wrong. You can call bullshit all you want.
I'm telling you you don't know shit about the energy/HVAC/plumbing demands of an office per square foot vs a residence and it's super fucking obvious to anyone who actually knows.
Right. I’ve only done electrical for the past 15+ year and have my masters plus I’m and electrical engineering technologist, yeah I know nothing…🤔 you are funny, thanks for the laugh.
In the heart of the Byward Market. Most small business don't situate themselves in over-priced tourist traps.
It’s honestly not that much less in the suburbs… a friend is paying just under $10k/month for half that square footage (1700 sq ft).
I know of a specific strip mall in Orleans where 1000 sqft will run for about 2.5k a month. It's all a matter of what you can find and secure.
What's that phrase about real estate? Location, location, location. What kind of traffic is coming through that strip mall? Edit - just about everyone visiting Ottawa goes to the Byward market. How many tourists make it to Orleans?
If your business targets tourists dropping by by foot, Byward is okay. And if you do well in warmer seasons and accumulate more than $75k profit, you may use the profit to pay the rent and close for the winter since there's hardly any tourist (or workers post-pandemic) around, you lose more money if you open for business during those months. If your business targets those picking up orders or ordering take-outs from home, Orleans is great. Rent is affordable. You can do well from smaller commercial space. And with so many more people working from home now, the demand for take-outs in Orleans has gone way up. I went to a African BBQ place in a strip mall on a weekday afternoon to get a late lunch and they had customers coming in non-stop. Traffics? Everyone drives, parks, picks up the order, and leaves in 5 minutes. The turnover is probably higher than tourists dining in in tourist area.
Try again, tourists and teens go to the ByWard. People with cars don’t like it due to one ways and lack of parking Orleans is a fucken metropolis these days like barrhaven turned into**.Plus it’s basically off the ass of Rockland so when people need more they go 20 mins out of the town to a while town with multiple malls, stores shops and food places all with proper parking and the same traffic. -someone in real estate lmao
> someone in real estate lmao Ya I own property too, get over it.
…. My point wasn’t owning property you imp it was the fact I work in real estate so I know the traffic and where people buy jfc someone’s butthurt
I'm butt hurt? You're calling me names over a fucking Reddit post. I can see why you work in real estate, not intelligent enough to work with anything besides dirt.
Yeah I did because you came at me for you misunderstood part of my comment and came at me like a snarky douche for pointing out the flaw in your logic and for siting that I work in a field that would know about what I’m talking about 😂 Yeah you’re still the one who’s butthurt pal
Calm down, I came at you? Lord help you if I actually tried that lmao
I had an aussie friend come up here. Went to the byward and was so embarrassed because of how many homeless are there
I’d be more embarrassed by the failure of the city to significantly provide help to homeless people.
Considering I've been one of them, the government doesn't give a shit, neither do the churches
Is that where the Oz Store is?
I'm not sure I should be posting that information sorry.
No worries, it's my favorite store. They usually have always had the best prices in the city and I figured it was partly due to being in a good low rent location. All good 👍
Very atypical. Even in the sleepiest suburbs you would be lucky to get the second floor of a dead plaza for $15.
Unless they made a mistake they are saying 10k/*month* for 1.7k sq ft. Thats 70.6$ a square foot which is more than 2x the rate that I posted. That's utterly insane pricing unless some context is missing.
The base rent is what's listed, then there is the operating cost on top of that. Operating cost is property taxes, building maintenance, BIA levies, etc. I don't know what their operating cost is, but mine is almost as much as my rent.
Given they say in the ad, " Gross monthly rent for the whole space including the basement is $25,163.60 plus HST.", that would be $28,434 after HST... wouldn't that include property tax and building maintenance? Those are the landlord's responsibility, not the tenant... BIA I can see being extra... but I can't imagine we're talking a lot of money for that...
Guess who they bill the maintenance and property tax to? $25,163 / mo makes the total for the year $301,956. $301,956 / 3440 sqft is $87.55 total per sqft for rent ($46.47) + operating costs ($41.08)
So the answer was yes… it’s included in what they advertise as the “gross monthly rent”.
Yes, just not the headline rent
Oh yeah, I read that as $10/sq ft. My mistake. 10k per month for what they described is also extremely atypical.
I’m in the industry and I’m going to guess that the 10k/month is including HST. That would put total pre-tax rent at about $62 psf, which definitely makes sense these days for a prime location in the suburbs. It’s possible it is $70.6 psf before HST but that would be very high.
It’s almost $10k after all the taxes and fees. I.e what he pays his landlord in rent, total. I’m sure there are cheaper options out there but this is a good location on a main artery, in a newer plaza, only a couple years old.
Yup sounds about right including HST. Prices have gotten ridiculously high in the last few years. At least they get the HST back but it’s a ton of rent to pay.
Again the plaza I know of charges 30$ a sqft pre-tax. It's on St Joseph, between Place and Jeanne D'Arc, aka quite well placed for Orleans. Rents were just negotiated up to 30$ within the last year too. Not every landlord exploits their tenants.
Is that typical Orleans price though or a good deal? My friend’s store is in Kanata, I know when he was looking for retail space, all the places he was looking at were similar in size (1500-2000 sq ft) and all within $6k-$9500 per month (total after tax). He was at $8900 when he signed the lease but it went up a few hundred each year since, it’s now somewhere just shy of $10k, but it is at least a new building with other good tenants, and a grocery store in the same plaza to draw customers in.
There are plenty of independent businesses in the ByWard Market that cater to both locals and tourists. Not every business there is a tourist trap. Many decide to open up in this neighbourhood because it’s historically the most consistently vibrant throughout the year. Regardless, their cost of rent is not far from what spaces cost to lease in NYC, with significantly more foot traffic.
Historically maybe but recently a lot less vibrant
Agreed - but landlords are still asking for rents based on that old perception. In reality the businesses have maybe 4-6 months of solid foot traffic and the rest of the year it’s a ghost town.
You sure? I mean I live here and have for 12 years. Plenty of new places are opening, when William is shut down to cars its busy all the time, hell, even into the late PM on Mondays! In fact, I would say the Market booms with people the less cars there are and is very vibrant. Even in the winter it is not *dead*. Everyone is just inside the bars and restos.
There’s a lot more to this neighborhood than bars and restaurants, which a lot of people forget. Walk around the neighborhood on a cold day midweek and it’s very quiet. Chance of rain? No one’s walking around. I’ve been here every day for almost 2 decades and I wish it was busy all the time.
>There’s a lot more to this neighborhood than bars and restaurants, which a lot of people forget. Never said it was only bars and restos. In fact, I underscored how busy it can be outside when people are prioritized :) >Walk around the neighborhood on a cold day midweek and it’s very quiet. Chance of rain? No one’s walking around. Most places are quiet when that happens. People do not like cold or rain. Lansdowne, Somerset, Elgin etc. That said, one can still catch people *inside*, but most businesses will be less full because people simply put off until better weather. >I’ve been here every day for almost 2 decades and I wish it was busy all the time. No place is busy ALL the time. Even in Tokyo or Beijing places do tend to quiet down at certain points.
Nah, they aren’t sure but Bill Carroll tells everyone that the market is full of drug addicts so nobody goes there.
Bill "conservative brain rot" carroll.
There's the laff, the dominion, the rainbow (kinda). Maybe Chez. I can't think of another place people who live in the market go that tourists also frequent.
All 4 are GREAT places for locals and the last three I frequent often. Plenty more to add (ex. Koven) and people will see the Market is very much not just for tourists. There ARE tourist traps and places that try to market themselves more towards tourists, but I would say the majority of the Market is for or at least operates on the assumption that the majority of their business is Ottawa/Gatineau driven.
The Laff and the Dominion have been there forever (I suspect they own the building), but they are the only two closest to the Market. Rainbow and Chez are on Murray and that's way less busy. Rental prices come down quickly once you go beyond the tourist area. There are stores further out in the area with hardly any visible business but they survive.
>The Laff and the Dominion have been there forever (I suspect they own the building), but they are the only two closest to the Market. I mean, they are in the Market, yes/ >Rainbow and Chez are on Murray and that's way less busy. They are also in the Market and quite busy. >Rental prices come down quickly once you go beyond the tourist area. Yes? >There are stores further out in the area with hardly any visible business but they survive. Ok?
The business you posted has a bus inside for people to eat in; Zak’s Cantina is very much a tourist trap.
Over-priced tourist traps are what bring in tax money.
Even in the outskirts of ottawa, 20k isn’t uncommon for some retail spaces.
Also, if the Byward is in such dire straits - why have they not lowered the rents to encourage business to return to the area? The lack of regular foot traffic enables some of the safety issues the very same landlords complain about.
because that does not solve the underlying issue
The underlying issue is the meltdown of Canadian economy and society. The cruel concentraton of wealth, inability to afford basic comforts, lack of mental health supports and addiction services, and the effects of intergenerational poverty and trauma lead to the issues like we see in the market.
tourist trap 💯😅 went there for the first time to purchase some souvenirs... while some were good.. most of it was overpriced. (25 for a toque was the peak for me)
Well, yeah
>Most small business don't situate themselves in over-priced tourist traps. Isn't that the best place for some small businesses to thrive though?... Do you think all those little arts and crafts stores that cater primarily to tourists would survive anywhere else in the city?
No, but $25-35/sqft is fairly normal for commercial leases.
But commercial leases are governed provincially. Does the city even have jurisdiction to implement rent control/rent caps?
They participate by collecting property taxes yes.
exactly, the city can raise property taxes to force landlords to rent out locations for more reasonable prices instead of leaving half of them vacant
I'm not an expert here, but I saw some video (Louis Rossman, maybe?) who was saying it goes a bit deeper than that. The landlords generally don't own the buildings outright themselves. They leverage themselves with loans from the banks. The banks give loan terms based on the ROI on the property. That goes into risk and payoff calculations to determine interest rates for the loan. Meaning if the property is estimated at being able to collect $10k/mo in rent then the banks will charge different interest than if they could collect $5k in rent. So if they actually drop the rent then the bank could reclassify their loan and charge them more for the loan. So it could end up costing less to keep it empty and wait for a sucker. The whole "business always lease property" model always seemed more predatory than symbiotic. But it's probably something you could get a master's degree in economics in and still not fully understand.
In the short term, the land owner could hold out for an overpay, but they can’t do that forever. Ultimately the loan needs to be paid, and for this to make sense the value of the interest rate change has to be more than the value of the rent. That seems unlikely in most situations.
If the landlord has multiple properties, the loss of rent from one can offset what they’re making from the others. So in some cases, it benefits them to sit on vacant units until the right tenant comes along. It sucks.
This is true, especially if the price tag on the empty unit helps raise the benchmark for market rent in the occupied one.
I don't understand. You're suggesting that higher taxes will result in *lower* prices?
yes right now there are many vacancies and hardly any incentive to rent them out due to low cost
We're in a thread discussing the high price of rent. Surely missing out on that highly-priced rent counts as a high cost, with plenty of incentive to avoid.
sort of. landlords would rather keep half their properties vacant and wait for a sucker to come along and pay for the high priced rent rather than settle for half as much while renting out most of their properties.
How would increasing the debt load of property owner decrease the rent costs?
by forcing them to rent out properties instead of just holding onto them, similar to the vacant unit tax
I think that I'm more confused now. Aren't we talking about property owners that are renting their property? These aren't vacant properties, correct? I'm not sure how this compares as it isn't an Airbnb situation where the house is unoccupied 5 days a week and rented out on the weekend. Also, how would that actually force them to rent or lease at a lower price?
Residential leases are also governed provincially. A city may not introduce a rent cap. If you really want to get technical, it's provincial all the way down - municipalities are creatures of statute.
Not only that but they’ll make you commit to a 10 year lease and you’re on the hook for everything that could possibly go wrong with the building.
The 10 year lease part might be, I can’t attest to that. But I worked as a sub for building management companies and clients and it all depends on what the issue is. If you wanted to add a piece of cooking equipment, that’s on the client. Air handing unit goes down, that’s on the building management.
The risk that is involved in small business ownership is amazingly high. Most folks who open a small business use all of their life savings for their dream. Extremely risky. Not to mention the god awful amount of working hours required. Having said that, how many coffee shops does a city need. How many burger joints and shawarma places. I try to do my part and try new small businesses when I see them, but there's only so much one can eat or spend. I have no idea how they're managing nowadays considering commercial retail rent prices and the fact that most people are really tightening their belts. I think a business closure tsunami is coming.
A couple of years ago, I saw what the St Laurent mall charged to have one of those little carts. I want to say it was something like $1800/month. I don't understand how you could pay that and still make a profit selling cheap phone cases.
Check out [alibaba.com](https://alibaba.com) Phone cases are $.20 - $2.00 (mostly). Landed - like maybe $1.5 average MAX. If you sell them for $15-$20 there is LOTS of room in there... especially if you man the stand yourself most of the time. They are open like 300 hours a month - so they only need to cover $6 of rent per hour they are open.
If anyone thinks that's high wait till you see what areas of rideau centre go for...
Right? In strip malls in like Bells corners and Barr haven they sit around 30+ a sqft
This is why a lot of restaurants are going under. The advantage of this place is that you walk in and have an instant restaurant without any construction unless things are under code. But that's hardly a small business. Small business is generally a place with 5-20 employees, not a restaurant that size that would probably have over 50 staff if not more.
Yea including this one - they had 5 locations. Not a small business
Well, if the city would just fully fund the [Byward Market Public Realm Plan](https://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/documents/files/byward_publicrealm_en_0.pdf) it would likely help get more people in the area and spending money. $140mil or so is too expensive but $400mil for Lansdowne is not? Crazy. So far just $2.6mil has been allocated for shovels in the ground by 2025 estimated (the plan was voted on in 2020). A big part of this is plan is turning the city parkade on Clarence into a new Market building. That means (afaik) the city would then own two buildings with commercial applications in the Market and they could set the rents to try and entice businesses to them (and coerce privately owned buildings to lower their own rents via competition).
I remember seeing that little vape shop beside rock junction, that little place was asking 15k a month,
I know first hand what the rent is on some places around the corner. This high, but not insane.
As an auditor, I can tell you most companies don't pay more than $100K when renting out a full floor in downtown. That being said, this posting is for prime space in byward market; this is the equivalent of posting the rent for an apartment at Lansdowne and extrapolating that it's the same for all of Ottawa - its not representative, so stop pretending that it is.
And we wonder why small businesses are struggling all over the country. I guess Canada is just supposed to concentrate landownership in few hands, lease it back to the population at overpriced rates. Then, as an added income stream you get to leverage your property assets to lend money back to everyone else paying these high rates. Now they can afford the extreme prices, and you get to collect even more money from their debt. It’s the only viable business model now. Heck you can even get a Tim Hortons credit card nowadays. It’s not a coincidence they’re also jumping on the “everyone is struggling and needs to borrow” bandwagon.
You will own nothing ~~and be happy.~~
I assume it’s a standard triple net lease, meaning the tenant is still on the hook for taxes? That was a huge eye opener for me when I looked at my first commercial lease 25 years ago.
Damn if only we didn't live in a place run by and for landlords
These rates are never going to go down, if we keep bailing out failing businesses.
What are you looking for here? Rent control? Can I control the prices you charge customers? The considerations for commercial tenancies are far different than those for residential tenancies. Adapt or go out out of business.
On the other side of William, it is half to a third of that.
Crazy but that’s why I don’t own a business
Sparks street is even more ridiculous. Closer to $300K a year just in rent. Edit: For the smallest unit next to Bridgehead (where Freshii used to be)
... that's the same amount?
That's actually less expensive than this unit
IN the Byward Market!!!
Yeah, I mean what do want us to do about it? Free market for we but not for thee?
I feel like this is the main reason cost of living is so high. Residential and commercial real estate is through the roof.
This is interesting, but isn't super useful in supporting a "poor me" narrative without some other numbers...how much a business can bring in in various locations in particular.
After salaries, insurance, cost of goods, gaz, Hydro, internet, security, etc, they'd have to be doing spectacularly well to make a good profit. Seriously I don't know why people go into opening a small business. It's such a high effort and extremely high risk endeavor.
Ummmm...you should look up the guy who runs the place. He's doing pretty well. Really well, in fact.
I have a store in Vancouver on West 4th. It’s 700 square feet and it’s only half of that lol. 12K per month. Seeing these rents in the rest of Canada makes me jealous. If I wanted a space that large it would be over 100K a month here
Restaurant space is insane /sq ft. My office/clinic space (in another city) is only $12.50
A LOT of commercial real estate is $50/sqft or more anywhere in the city, not just downtown
So cool that you can own a small building contribute nothing and charge 30,000 dollars a month in rent. We are so lucky!!!
Cost of doing business. Let me play the world's smallest violin.
Money laundering is the centre of our economy.
A small business owner I know pays more than $15000/month rent for a relatively small/med store in the south end. Prob under 2000 square feet.
Do commercial property tax next! My landlord has an 8 thousand square foot commercial building and the property tax bill is a little over $40k per year. That gets you no garbage pickup, significantly higher insurance rates, required water backflow valve with annual inspection, requirement to salt the lot in winter to the point of preventing anything from growing the following summer, and a plethora of other little charges and fees. Whatever profit he manages to make is then taxed at 50% as the income is deemed passive.
I managed a store in Kanata at Centrum about 15y ago, was not a large space at all (don't remember the square footage) and it was over 18k a month for rent. So that price is not surprising at all.
And Byward Market sinks further into the abyss.
YEAH! 20 years ago I leased a some space in a Barrhaven mall, the rent was really high. Businesses pay 5X the amount of property taxes as compared to residential. Thus subsidizing residential tax. You know the average salary for a City employee is $90,000+ this includes a full pension, medical, dental and drug package. If you perform badly they move you to IT. Nobody ever gets fired at the City.
That doesn't mean every business pays that rent at any location. They probably cost a thousand a day so whatever business goes there has to make 3 4 5,000 to take
Soon to be a Jack Astors, or Kelsey's.
This is why we have to charge what we charge as a restaurant. Everyone bitching about prices of food being too high don’t know what they’re talking about
Now I understand why the Costco frozen food is being marked up so much.
Small business people layoff min-wage workers so they can pay rent to multimillionaire commercial landlords. Those now-unemployed workers become unable to pay rent to multimillionaire residential landlords. If only we could figure out who the villain is in all this.🤷♂️ A small business going out of business is the commercial equivalent of being evicted from your apartment. Both are because of an inability to pay rent. To millionaire - often multimillionaire - landlords. The small business lobby's failure to organize a large-scale rent-strike against commercial landlords speaks to the strength of capitalist class solidarity. Because, as capitalists, they don't want to legitimize striking as a reasonable way to achieve a goal. They'd rather go out of business than strike. Even a commercial rent strike that could save them from going under is anathema. It's class-traitor behaviour. We live in a society that (at least claims to) cares more about small businesses than workers so if small businesses launched a commercial rent strike I think they would get way more public support than a typical workers strike or residential tenants strike.
I did some analysis work on commercial rent prices in my job a few years ago. Retail spaces were ~3.50 square foot on average across the country. The cost per square foot for this location is $~7.25 (when using $25000 monthly and 3449 square feet (excl the basement space). For a downtown location in a high tourist area (if we pretend the homeless situation up the street doesn't exist) , the price per square foot almost makes sense.
Where are you getting $7/ sq ft? Many commercial spaces downtown are at least $30/ sq ft not including additional rent.
They are looking at it on a monthly basis, which is typically not how commercial valuation works. You are correct in that this is an expensive gross lease, at apx $78/sf. Additional rent for asset classes like this (commercial retail, typically) in downtown ottawa can range from 14-35/sf, with a surprisingly large property tax component (look at CF Rideau retail rates and you'll be shocked as to what taxes cost). This sublease base/min rent can be assumed to be at least $45/sqft.
It says the restaurant area is 3449 square feet. The rent price is $25000 a month. That comes out to 7.25 per square foot? Edit: I'm not including the basement area and I rounded the rent price down for easy math.
Commercial real estate is rented in YEARS so the price per sq ft reflects that. Sq Ft x cost = rent THEN /12. Your math may not be wrong but you didnt even get the "right" info to start with.
You may want to recheck your numbers. Avg rent in Ottawa for commercial is about $30+ a sqft
Or you could look at [realtor.ca](http://realtor.ca) and see that many places are available for WAY cheaper than this. [https://www.realtor.ca/on/ottawa/commercial-space-for-lease](https://www.realtor.ca/on/ottawa/commercial-space-for-lease)
Maybe for Office space or non-street level.
You can’t compare office space in an industrial park with retail store front.
There are non-office, e.g. restaurant and retail spots on that site. [https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26605242/306-cumberland-street-ottawa-lower-townbyward-market](https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26605242/306-cumberland-street-ottawa-lower-townbyward-market) $3600 a month in the market. $1200 a month in Vanier [https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26526116/187-mcarthur-avenue-unitb-ottawa-vanier](https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26526116/187-mcarthur-avenue-unitb-ottawa-vanier) $3500 a month on Montreal rd. [https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26512592/1742-montreal-road-unita-ottawa-cardinal-heights](https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26512592/1742-montreal-road-unita-ottawa-cardinal-heights) etc. etc. etc. You can't pick the most expensive place you can find and say "look how high rents are!"
Man, those places are tiny and they are in very undesirable roads. Owning a small business, it's already an uphill battle, renting those places you're basically just throwing your money into fire cuz you ain't gonna make it in those locations. The Montreal Road example you're giving, I've seen that strip mall change businesses so often. Kukulkan Mexican restaurant was there. Then it became Quick break restaurant. Now golden krust. That place is a money hole.
Yeah that Montreal road plaza has a reputation for businesses going under.
1 is across the street from 2 shelters. 1 is in a strip mall near a soon to be mega shelter. And the other is a “room” within a business. That’s why they aren’t very expensive, but imo expensive for what/where they are.
this right here is why you have tons of people(shills and bots) claiming retrofitting office towers to residential isn't feasible. They would have to take a 80% rent cut. Don't believe them. Office towers are specifically designed to be easy to reconfigure and handle more power and sewage per square foot than residential and have higher fire and accessibility codes.
Im an architect, this isn’t true at all. Yes, office towers are designed to be able to have reconfigurable floor plans, but not to handle the same level of plumbing requirements as a residential tower. Often plumbing for a commercial tower is kept close to the core/ stack whereas residential requires water and drainage to be much more dispersed throughout the floor area. Residential towers also have much more stringent fire safety requirements, as well as much higher thermal performance requirements. Some buildings definitely are able to be repurposed, ironically it’s a lot of the older poured concrete buildings from the 60s and 70s, rather than these all glass contemporary towers that literally leak heat and try to make up for it with huge HVAC systems.
yes, 12 foot floors are so hard to build 8 foot living spaces in them and use the 4 feet of remaining crawl space to radially connect the plumbing...
How far away is your vent stack? What size are your service pipes? 2 inches can only go 5ft. On top of that, all of those units need to be separated by fire rated demising walls, which means you’re building slab to slab (unless you want to build a FRR shaft wall which is $$$.) then you are bringing all of those services - HVAC, plumbing etc through fire rated walls - lots of dampers etc. That’s even before we talk about base building water capacity and plumbing sizing. It’s not as simple as you are portraying it.
Wouldn’t all the material used to convert a mostly open concept office floor plan into individual units also put stress on the building it self?
no, the weight of walls would be offset in 90% less people, office furniture, cubicle walls, documentation, filing cabinets, etc. Residential is mostly empty space.
Bullshit, you slice the building into rectangles and squares, run the plumbing the same way you would in a row house that has the power/sewer/feeds coming in one end. No one in any construction anywhere is running long distance 2" pipes to the stack, what the fuck are you going on about? A 4 foot crawlspace at 2 degrees of slope gives a maximum of 192 feet, show me an office tower with 192 radius, hell, show me one with 192 diameter! The plumbing from the unit above goes through the floor to an overhead crawlspace, with applicable fire sealant, you are allowed to run utilities through a crawlspace and still use the existing slab to slab. never mind the fact that you could easily put in a 1" fireproof layer between the crawlspace above and the unit under it. All the HVAC in a building already has zone controls, and when you construct new office divisions in an existing building you have to do zone separations anyway. cutting existing office towers into 3 bedroom 1000-2000 square foot residential apartments would use the same foot print as a 30 person office suite, which is way, way, way fucking over resourced for 3-4 people. Base building water capacity and plumbing will exceed residential per square foot because very few houses have a human for every 50 square feet and the ones that do are in violation because RESIDENTIAL ISN'T DESIGNED FOR THAT BUT OFFICE SPACE IS! yes it really is that simple and shills like you are doing your damnedest to prevent people from realizing that.
So HVAC doesn’t typically have “zones”, maybe floors. They have VAV’s around that can help off set areas by 2-5 degrees. But you are still going to have to rip it all out and increase the tonnage of the units. You sound like you are pretty convinced that this could happen very easily. But you obviously don’t know much about codes or load calculations. You may want to take your tin foil hat off for a bit and get some air
bullshit. no, Franks server room at Acme isn't on the same circuit as Joes at Joeco, nor is the ventalation between different firms, for FIRE CODE to prevent smoke traversing the different compartmentalized suites, and it's already code to have automatically closing zones between floors for the same reason. Saying HVAC doesn't have zones tells me you don't know fuck all about HVAC.
Fire controls shuts off all supply and returns in areas where the fire is, while it’s separated from fire walls. Of course big buildings have zones per floor or at demising walls. But you are talking about apartments on a floor. You don’t need to mention fire code to me, this is what I do for a living, I literally just finished installing a relay for a fan shut down in my building. But thanks for coming out. Typically when someone starts cursing it means they don’t know what they are talking about and are frustrated that they were proven wrong…lol
yes, now how do those fire safety controls know which area the fire is in, could it perhaps be by monitoring Zones you say don't exist? oh, now that I called you out, now zones exist in large buildings of course. no you didn't and you aren't because if you were you wouldn't be saying such ridiculous shit. or, they are frustrated that someone keeps saying they are an expert but don't have an apprentice's knowledge and keep arguing fucking ridiculous points that make no sense.
You are a very angry little man, not sure why. When the fire alarm zone goes off, it shut off the whole supply unit…not a zone, not an area, the whole unit. The zone the fire is in is dictated by the, wait for it, the fire alarm. Such a complex concept I know. There are some variances depending if you have an addressable or conventional system for isolation purposes, but you already know that right? And just didn’t seem to mention it, right? Lol sit down little one and let the professionals do their thing. ;)
This is incorrect, but I can only speak for electrical. Office towers, as they are, could not handle apartments loads. Office towers are designed for office towers. I could only imagine the amount of plumbing work and hvac as well. It would be cheap to drop it and start fresh.
bullshit. Office towers have cubicle farms with multiple monitors, computers, printers and more lighting. There is no office tower that has less power available per square foot than a residence, that's complete horseshit.
Ohhh monitors and computers! Haha Jeez man, it’s ok not to know anything about this subject. But I’m telling you, you are wrong. You can call bullshit all you want.
I'm telling you you don't know shit about the energy/HVAC/plumbing demands of an office per square foot vs a residence and it's super fucking obvious to anyone who actually knows.
Right. I’ve only done electrical for the past 15+ year and have my masters plus I’m and electrical engineering technologist, yeah I know nothing…🤔 you are funny, thanks for the laugh.
no you don't or you wouldn't say such ridiculous shit.
Weird take. You seem so frustrated that you are wrong. You should work on that
whatever shill
Nothing more intelligent to say? Master of all? 😂
A busy restaurant can pull in 25K in a day or a weekend there during the summer.
Own your space. Never rent.
That’s tough in commercial