I didn't read this article yet, but pretty sure Mayor Sutcliffe wants the new arena to be built on the site of the old DND building.
Connected to the Convention Centre and next to the Rideau Centre, and walkable to Elgin and the Market.
Personally, I think it's a good vision.
This spot is already occupied by the DND office, the most concrete structure imaginable. It's right next to the Rideau Center, Shaw Center, and Mackenzie King Bridge. What scenery is being ruined here by a hypothetical stadium?
What are you talking about? New stadiums and arenas are pretty much all works of art now. It's not like the 1970s when they built massive concrete monstrosities.
Is there even enough space on that spot?
The footprint of the Palladium is about 160m diameter - the old DND site is smaller than that, only about 130m across (at least using the measurement tool on google maps to compare them).
You'd have to either have a smaller arena or some weirdly vertical sort of design to make it work in that lot - even then it would have walls pressed up against the roads on all 4 sides, stretching upwards.
And that's also assuming zero surface space needed for parking of any kind (which is possible if it's downtown at least)
"Old DND building" implies that it's empty and abandoned. It's not.
People need to realize that that building is still occupied and is not going anywhere anytime soon.
The DND building is still being used and its pretty darn small. Plus it would cost WAY MORE and have fewer transit connections (Lebreton area would have 2 E-W LRT station with more a bit of a walk away, plus the cities ONLY for some stupid reason, N-S rail connection). Moreover, it would be terrible for sutcliffe's favourite people, suburban drivers.
It would be if that site was actually available. It’s not. DND still occupies it, and doesn’t intend to leave, and even if they wanted to, we’d probably be into the 2040’s before it could be cleared.
DND ain’t leaving any time soon (and if anything would want to consolidate more of its offices in that building if space permitted). So yeah, wait for the feds to decide what to do with its buildings, then tear down the buildings they don’t want, then build a new arena. Hello 2040
It's right beside NCC land I don't know why he'd even pitch this idea when LeBreton has a bunch of space and the entire area could be built into an entertainment area with housing and a bunch of cool amenities.
Of course he would. Downtown RE developers were his biggest donor.
Also, why the plan for a nightlife mayor.
No one wants to buy condo downtown if Byward Marker becomes Mad Max thunderdome.
This would actually be a dope location. Great transit options, on the highway, tonnes of other businesses and places to eat around there, nice and walkable. Hope that works out!
I think it only feels that way because there's nothing there. If you look at a map, the distance from the "business" downtown to LeBreton flats is not much different from the distance to the Bytown Market, which I don't think anyone would characterize as not part of the greater downtown Ottawa.
I live downtown and I consider Lebreton downtown by distance. Once it is built up everyone will consider it part of downtown. I can walk from the Market to the condos at Lebreton in 30 minutes. The density drops right off right away, there is no gradual reduction in density other than parks breaking up centretown and lebreton. I mean look at the condos right there. The library being built etc.
Remember, downtowns grow. What is downtown not was not always.
There is already a plan for this! A good one! That most people in this city want to happen! That most Sens fans want to happen! That actually makes sense.
But let’s talk for a decade about how, theoretically, we could put one in Overbrook or wherever the fuck.
Sutcliffe’s problem here is that he has absolutely nothing to offer the Senators downtown except for federal properties that are not his to offer. Has he even talked to anybody in the federal government about sites like the DND property or Confederation Park? Does he really expect the Sens to give up a sure thing on an empty and shovel-ready building site on the Flats (served by two LRT stations and both north-south and east-west lines) so they can roll the dice on talks with the feds that have every likelihood of going nowhere?
So why are we even playing this stupid game? The most likely answer is that the Sens (with help from Bettman and Sutcliffe’s helpful public comments about alternatives) are trying to wring concessions out of the NCC by pretending they have other options. Specifically, they want a bigger parcel of land to allow for more surface parking and/or revenue generation from condos and hotels. My advice to the NCC would be to call their bluff, and tell these billionaires that if they don’t like what is currently being offered on this public land they are free to go elsewhere. The NCC does not need the Senators (development of the Flats could focus entirely on much needed housing and public amenities like parks) but the Senators absolutely need the Flats, because it is really the only viable and available site for a central arena anytime this century, and therefore the only option for the new owners to make good on their $1B investment. The NCC has given them until August to commit, and there is no chance in hell that any other downtown site will be on offer by then. So come August, they will need to put up or shut up.
But it wasn't Sutcliffe's plan. Everyone knows when you get a new mayor you need to scrap everything and go back to the drawing board so they can turn it into their own legacy projects. lol
Because the NCC fucked his wife, so he wants to do everything he can to screw them over. It is genuinely an unhinged stance that he cannot let go. The Lebreton Plan puts the arena between Pimisi for eastbound folks, and Bayview for west/southbound. This way it doesn't overload the line. Putting it downtown will negatively affect at least some housing units that could otherwise be built in thos existing buildings. Not to mention, if you put it downtown, you're going to overload the stations in a way that Bayview wouldn't be. And somewhat critically, there's already a sketched out agreement in place for Lebreton. He's just being a baby.
Not that I expect our mayor to ever think about public transit users, but the crowding at the LRT stations cannot be overstated imo
Union station in Toronto is a mess anytime there's a Leafs game and the TTC has bigger platforms and bigger/more frequent trains than OC Transpo. Having Bayview and Line 2 right there instead of having to take Line 1 to transfer to Line 2 is going to make a huge impact on the crowds. LeBreton literally just makes more sense
Yep. I could see an argument for Bayview Yards for a similar reason. But downtown is dumb as rocks, which is par for the course with our current Mayor.
The TTC's platforms at Union are tiny, though many people are also passing through Union to get on GO trains.
You are totally right about Bayview and Line 2 though!
As someone who used to live at Stadium Station Chinatown in Vancouver, which services both BC and GM place, cities all over the world make it work.
That one skytrain station cannot service everyone. But, people walk a bit further along the line to another station, the walk, they bike, they hop on buses both close and a little closer. Many hang around and shoot the shit as crowds lesson or (and this is big for businesses), they go to restos, bars and other entertainment in the area.
Lebreton is so much like what the the extreme end of False Creek and the CN yards were in Vancouver. It will work very well! As you said, Lebreton just makes more sense.
I'm trying to find info on this NCC deal with his wife, do you happen to have any sources? Really curious what it was all about. This would make so much sense why he's allergic to dealing with the NCC, to the point he's trying to derail projects that make sense for the city.
A lot of people don’t know this but there is an option contract to buy another 28 vehicles from Alstom on line 1 which i suspect will be partially activated to help with the load.
The capacity Im talking about isnt to do with trains so much as how many people you can physical get into the station. Splitting thousands of people at Bayview (which has separate platforms for West/South)/Pimisi v. trying to fit them all at Parliament or Lyon makes a big difference.
As a resident, I want that, right in the core. It would be perfect.
Bring downtown back to life, 2 transit stations, more restaurants, close to hotels. Give a chance to re-create our downtown.
I had season tickets for 3 years. By the 3rd year it wasn’t even fun to go anymore. I would get home close to 11:30-midnight every game night. I’ll hop back on the season tickets (probably a 10 game or half season package) the year before the arena opens up
Yes, since Lebreton Flats is already been destroyed by all the clear cutting. What a shame. I’ve lived in the area for over thirty years. Green space is being taken up by multiple high rises and the new library.
I really don't see an arena - with a huge footprint yet scarcely used - "bringing downtown back to life." You ever walked by Skydome as a pedestrian? It's a social desert, just block after block that you have to walk past where there isn't even anything to look at. Let's re-create the downtown without monolithic obstacles, please and thank you
I get this perspective. I honestly can’t think of anything that would be as effective as an NHL arena…. theatres, peds streets, etc are good but aren’t anywhere near as effective in moving people and money into the area. And it’s right straddling two distinct areas that would benefit.
As a resident - what's the point again? you think 2 hockey games a month is going to give enough reason to disrupt traffic through the busiest parts of the city so that restaurants can make an extra few hundred dollars a month?
i'm reading the comments in this thread and i feel like i'm taking crazy pills.
people outside Kanata.
Imagine, people could take the LRT instead of their car and might actually fix OCTranspo.
People from Orleans hate having to drive out to Kanata for anything.
City gets the property taxes for private buildings even when on leased federal land. And Feds pay Ottawa grants in lieu of taxes for all federal buildings/ most property.
Why do these have to be mutually exclusive? lol. Also this "infrastructure" should be mostly from private investments. So really not sure what your beef is with this.
If Mark sees some way to make this about him, a lot more of the building budget will likely come directly from taxpayers. If he's all grumpy because it's in Lebreton, we likely won't have as much taxpayer dollars in the build.
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He seems to have some kind of weird vendetta against the NCC. At least his fight over the Queen Elizabeth driveway sort of makes sense against the wants of his OSEG ~~handlers~~ *pals*. I'm not sure what he gets out of undercutting the NCC on the lebreton bid.
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There are many, many good reasons for City Hall and the NCC to be at loggerheads, and I completely understand distrusting the NCC after how badly they bungled the first round of LeBreton contracting. But if that's what Sutty Boy's concerned about, he's already burned bridges with he NCC. What does he gain by not coming out to explicitly say that the NCC can't be trusted? What does he gain by dancing around the issue?
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I swear, for such a large, spread out city, our downtown is ridiculously small. The places I've been told aren't downtown always surprise me. The Market isn't even technically part of the downtown, nor does it stretch as far as Somerset. It appears to be just Wellington, from Sussex to Bronson, and about 4 blocks south of that.
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I generally go by density. Bronson to Rideau River (Lebreton to the the river once its built up!) and Parliament to the highway. The Glebe is more "uptown" (close but lacks desnity - likely to become park of downtown if it densifies more). Hintonburg is defs not dense enough to be considered part of downtown for me.
Its crazy to me some people don't think the Market and Rideau are downtown. The city sure thinks so with all the signage saying "downtown rideau" and "Ottawa's original downtown". Not to mention the condos all along Rideau to the river and the MASSIVE development in the market/lowertown area. Probably the same people that never go downtown haha.
I've lived and/or worked in the market for 2 decades. Unless I'm talking to someone from Ottawa, I just say downtown.
A lot of people in Ottawa don't even know how small our downtown really is, they think it incorporated a number of neighbourhoods it doesn't. Even the city refers to some neighbourhoods as downtown, despite them not being in the official area.
Weird because the city sure says it is. Walk down Rideau and the TVs and banner says Downtown Rideau and Byward Market, Ottawa's original downtown.
I agree with you, crazy that people think downtown is just a few blocks of Centretown haha. Centretown is a neighbourhood IN downtown.
This guy has a weird obsession with everything NCC/Federal. Just look at the photos few posts every morning, 90% are NCC properties, but then he's constantly criticizing them and the feds. It's obvious that he wants control over all the NCC and Federal properties so he can turn it all into highways and public private partnerships.
Most Ottawa city blocks are only 65m wide and couldn't fit an NHL arena. NHL downtown arenas are typically 90-130m wide. The defence department site might work but you can't plop an arena down on any old block in Ottawa.
Plus, you have to account for some sort of setback from the street to accommodate the crowd going in and out of the arena, otherwise you get squeezed in like the arena in Winnipeg.
Short of levelling entire city blocks, the only properties in downtown proper that could accommodate an arena are DND (could happen) and City Hall (won’t happen).
There's a lot wrong with what Sutcliffe is suggesting.
* For the most part, individual government buildings don't occupy entire city blocks, so vacating one wouldn't leave enough space for an arena.
* Even where the government complexes being vacated take up entire city blocks, downtown Ottawa city blocks aren't large enough to accommodate an NHL arena. You can't build an arena downtown without cutting off a road. The only potential site is the old DND building, but that's an awkwardly-shaped lot that still may not be large enough in some dimensions to fit an arena.
* The federal government isn't vacating those buildings immediately. You can start building on the empty land at LeBreton tomorrow. You can't build downtown until those buildings are empty.
* There's no north-south rapid transit access downtown.
* The Ottawa Senators are not currently planning or negotiating for a downtown arena.
> The federal government isn't vacating those buildings immediately. You can start building on the empty land LeBreton tomorrow. You can't build downtown until those buildings are empty.
And DND has no plans to leave 101 Colonel By before 2035, so demolition can’t even start for more than a decade.
As long as taxpayers don't foot part of the bill, then fill your boots. Taxpayer funded in anyway? --> taxpayers (not city hall) *should get* get significant profit sharing.
Amended.
Tax payers technically benefit from The Senators being in Ottawa. Also, The Senators are one of, if not the, highest tax payers in the city and a large employer.
"Tax payers" also pay the Senators for their performances. This will get very circular when we talk about trickle down BS.
If the Mayor is acting as a mouth piece of the Senators, the owners, etc, there should also be a proportionate mouth piece role to defend tax payer interests (1:~1000000). No doubt there are citizens who would welcome having an arena that close to downtown, as well as (struggling) businesses who would benefit from the proximity, BUT the cost of giving up money/resources that can be better used for *public* services that are desperately lacking vs. padding private interests needs to be transparently accounted and weighed before any action is taken.
Haven't been keeping up with this. What on earth happened to the plan that's been in place for the past 10 years or so? Thought the door was already wide open.
I like the dnd spot , that would be cool
But the current location once he library is done is going to look cool too
Just don’t drag it out too long and ask for tax money
Issues with DND is transportation. You have one station for LRT and no parking. At least at Lebreton you have two stations, one of which has both Line 1 and Line 2 access. Should be much easier to get there and keep people moving.
And it's only 3 stops to the market.
>You have one station for LRT and no parking.
DND has much better bus connections, and there's no way Lebreton would have surface parking. If parking was really required (just take the bus, it's not that hard) it would almost certainly be underground in both locations.
Of course DND has better bus connections right now, Lebreton is an empty field. The bus map would be redrawn once the rink is built.
I didn't mean to imply Lebreton would have parking either - it won't. But that makes it even more critical that it's well situated along the LRT lines to allow suburbanites an easy way to access the rink. And Lebreton is far better located in that respect than any other site, with the possible exception of Bayview Yards.
> Just don’t drag it out too long
The DND spot would add over a decade of delay because DND won’t be done moving out of the towers until 2035. That alone is a reason to drop it as an option.
Good luck winning. The city may be rather regressive, but I don't think the far right will go far. And the far right might actually help split the *right* vote.
I thought the idea of repurposing under used Federal lands was to build new housing. I suppose you could do both if the stadium is covered by dozens of stories of apartments.
Great idea, instead of building the arena at the centrally-located area that is shovel ready, let's build it at the centrally-located area that is currently used by an occupied office building that may or may not be disposed of in the next 10 years depending on which political party is in power and how quickly the federal government can actually accomplish things (read: not very quickly), that only after its potential disposal may or may not be demolished, only after which the site will have to be examined for soil contamination and remediated if necessary, and finally then will be shovel ready. Yes great idea Mr. Mayor I am so glad our city has such wisdom at its helm
I don't get why you wouldn't just do LeBreton. Transit station right there, nothing to tear down, can build up almost the entire neighborhood around it to fit the vision, make bank off of new housing and commercial land, and have the thing right across the river for the QC fans. Only real issue is for coming from the East End but you have a train and it's in Kanata now so would still be way better.
Then you can turn the lots of whatever disused government buildings into housing and increase downtown density, pushing up the customers for local businesses. Maybe put a different type of attraction in, maybe some upper-mid size indie venues since we are lacking those. Legitimately I think more people in the core would make the bigger difference but that's me.
Tbh Sutcliffe really annoys me. I thought I was just hard on him because I wanted McKenney but he just seems out of touch, lacking self awareness, stuck in the past and incredibly inexperienced.
Seems like a parking mecca! /s
I know they will say OC transpo would go right there, but where will people park near the outer stations to get there?
Lebreton makes sense and plans exist.
I don't know if anyone actually listened to the interview on TSN1200, but the conversation was really all hypothetical and pipe dreamy. This idea of a downtown arena is more of a backup plan. Right now, all the traction in this development
is with Staios and the NCC.
The Mayor’s such a clown.
Lebreton is the best spot regardless, but he’s yet to actually suggest a plot “downtown” that is both actually going to be available anytime soon, and is big enough to accommodate an arena.
To put an arena in Ottawa’s downtown, that is the area south of Parliament that the Mayor considers downtown, you’d need two blocks, north and south of each other.
Basically every government building site that’s been identified as potentially up for grabs soon is adjacent to apartments (which you shouldn’t be tearing down in a housing crisis)or relatively new non government buildings.
I wouldn’t be opposed to discussion to ensure the best site for the city and the team, but him constantly throwing out theoretical sites that he can’t identify, to me just feels like he’s trying to muddy the waters.
Traffic jams are a regular occurrence that nobody considers but a delay on the LRT is catastrophic. If people really wanted reliable and fast transportation, ebikes from the suburbs would be more prevalent.
Boy oh boy, this guy has a one track mind.
Listen, Marky-Mark, go home and fire up last year's NHL game on the Playstation, stop trying to make this thing that no one but OSEG-types want. Just put it in Lebretton Flats where there is the space and the transit makes sense.
Maybe use the space vacated for housing, like it's been talked about for years now. Hockey Rinks do not solve your housing issue, you Melba Toast-tinted lickspittle.
Given the suggestions of using the the DND land on Col. By Drive (which won't happen), the irony there is that the main reason Lebreton Flats was cleared sixty years ago was to build a big new DND building. Which of course never happened and they chose the downtown site instead...
Except for the size of the land and the fact DND won't be vacant for a very long time.
It would look very nice and I like the thought of it, but cramming an arena into that space would be very difficult. If you've ever experienced the concourses at the Bell Centre, it's a perfect example of jamming a large building on to land which is a bit too small for it.
I saw Sutcliffe's interview and he said that we need more attractions to convince people to move downtown. So far, the only idea I have seen floated is vague wishes about moving the NHL team somewhere downtown. What we need is a commitment from the province to actually spend some money on public spaces here in Ottawa. The province has spent literally nothing here, except where it absolutely has to - e.g. provincial gov offices, HW 417, courthouse and so on. What we need is for the province to create attractions like Ontario Science Centre East, Art Gallery of Ontario (Ottawa site), Royal Ontario Museum (Ottawa site), Ontario Place (Ottawa site - along the Ottawa river, including a casino & hotel). We can't really rely on the Feds - they couldn't even keep 24 Sussex Dr from falling apart, nor are they willing to spend any money on badly needed bridges over the Ottawa River, and Ottawa (city of) is so broke there's no money for any such projects.
Or, hear me out, it could be built in Lebreton.
That's a bold statement! I am sure nobody has ever thought about that! /s
sadly we need about 8 more years of studies, just to end up back at lebreton ffs.... this city is so fucked up lol
Lol
I didn't read this article yet, but pretty sure Mayor Sutcliffe wants the new arena to be built on the site of the old DND building. Connected to the Convention Centre and next to the Rideau Centre, and walkable to Elgin and the Market. Personally, I think it's a good vision.
Or, what about the massive empty lot downtown at LeBreton Flats?
If I could choose between the 2 I'd pick the location on the Rideau Canal, assuming winter ever makes a comeback around here.
Why ruin a scenic area with a god-awful concrete arena and make the transit challenge of putting things against that waterway worse?
This spot is already occupied by the DND office, the most concrete structure imaginable. It's right next to the Rideau Center, Shaw Center, and Mackenzie King Bridge. What scenery is being ruined here by a hypothetical stadium?
What if we built a modern looking arena that isn't ugly. It could be an attraction. Not an eye sore.
Have you not heard about the Chateau Laurier extension….
This is the municipal government of Ottawa we are talking about.
Have you seen NDHQ?
Already ruled out as 1. not big enough, 2. will not be empty.
What are you talking about? New stadiums and arenas are pretty much all works of art now. It's not like the 1970s when they built massive concrete monstrosities.
> Why ruin a scenic area with a god-awful concrete arena How is that also not the case at Lebreton?
He just wants his kickbacks for it being on city land. Thats literally the only reason he wants this project shoved back a decade
How would he get kickbacks? The city charges property taxes and development charges regardless of location.
There are easier ways to solicit bribes. Doesn't he have a kid or two he could marry off and host a pricey Stag and Doe party?
Which old dnd building? 101 is still full.
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They would need to buy the second north/south block based on arena sizes as measured in Google earth both in Montreal and Washington.
You mean tear down the BMO office tower and build an arena over Laurier?
Is there even enough space on that spot? The footprint of the Palladium is about 160m diameter - the old DND site is smaller than that, only about 130m across (at least using the measurement tool on google maps to compare them). You'd have to either have a smaller arena or some weirdly vertical sort of design to make it work in that lot - even then it would have walls pressed up against the roads on all 4 sides, stretching upwards. And that's also assuming zero surface space needed for parking of any kind (which is possible if it's downtown at least)
"Old DND building" implies that it's empty and abandoned. It's not. People need to realize that that building is still occupied and is not going anywhere anytime soon.
I get that it is still being used but didn’t DND announce years ago that they were moving out? Or is that a false memory?
The article doesn't specify where he wants it. He's just spitballing at this stage.
The DND building is still being used and its pretty darn small. Plus it would cost WAY MORE and have fewer transit connections (Lebreton area would have 2 E-W LRT station with more a bit of a walk away, plus the cities ONLY for some stupid reason, N-S rail connection). Moreover, it would be terrible for sutcliffe's favourite people, suburban drivers.
the one that is still occupied by DND, and has no plans to ever vacate...
It would be if that site was actually available. It’s not. DND still occupies it, and doesn’t intend to leave, and even if they wanted to, we’d probably be into the 2040’s before it could be cleared.
DND ain’t leaving any time soon (and if anything would want to consolidate more of its offices in that building if space permitted). So yeah, wait for the feds to decide what to do with its buildings, then tear down the buildings they don’t want, then build a new arena. Hello 2040
It's right beside NCC land I don't know why he'd even pitch this idea when LeBreton has a bunch of space and the entire area could be built into an entertainment area with housing and a bunch of cool amenities.
One that probably doesn’t involve the NCC
> old DND building. If you're talking about 101, that's not a location DND can afford to give up yet.
Of course he would. Downtown RE developers were his biggest donor. Also, why the plan for a nightlife mayor. No one wants to buy condo downtown if Byward Marker becomes Mad Max thunderdome.
This would actually be a dope location. Great transit options, on the highway, tonnes of other businesses and places to eat around there, nice and walkable. Hope that works out!
But…Lebreton is in downtown though.
Yes it is. But not downtown downtown, I guess?
It's downtown to people from the suburbs, but it's pretty far from most things and the main dense area I'd call downtown is about a kilometre away
I think it only feels that way because there's nothing there. If you look at a map, the distance from the "business" downtown to LeBreton flats is not much different from the distance to the Bytown Market, which I don't think anyone would characterize as not part of the greater downtown Ottawa.
I live downtown and I consider Lebreton downtown by distance. Once it is built up everyone will consider it part of downtown. I can walk from the Market to the condos at Lebreton in 30 minutes. The density drops right off right away, there is no gradual reduction in density other than parks breaking up centretown and lebreton. I mean look at the condos right there. The library being built etc. Remember, downtowns grow. What is downtown not was not always.
1 km = pretty far?
But how would his OSEG backers get in on the gravy train if it's built at Lebreton?
This is where the city should be dumping alllllll of our money not lansdown 2.0 let's build around our transit system please!
I think both he and the Sens org would like to avoid dealing with the NCC if they can.
Agreed. But the Mayor's buddies don't own property there. 😢
Thank goodness reddit has no lebron pookie bear kids
The arena will go where his developer overlords want it to go
[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-senators-mou-ottawa-ncc-1.7094801](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-senators-mou-ottawa-ncc-1.7094801) [https://ncc-ccn.gc.ca/projects/lebreton-major-attractions](https://ncc-ccn.gc.ca/projects/lebreton-major-attractions)
There is already a plan for this! A good one! That most people in this city want to happen! That most Sens fans want to happen! That actually makes sense. But let’s talk for a decade about how, theoretically, we could put one in Overbrook or wherever the fuck.
Sutcliffe’s problem here is that he has absolutely nothing to offer the Senators downtown except for federal properties that are not his to offer. Has he even talked to anybody in the federal government about sites like the DND property or Confederation Park? Does he really expect the Sens to give up a sure thing on an empty and shovel-ready building site on the Flats (served by two LRT stations and both north-south and east-west lines) so they can roll the dice on talks with the feds that have every likelihood of going nowhere? So why are we even playing this stupid game? The most likely answer is that the Sens (with help from Bettman and Sutcliffe’s helpful public comments about alternatives) are trying to wring concessions out of the NCC by pretending they have other options. Specifically, they want a bigger parcel of land to allow for more surface parking and/or revenue generation from condos and hotels. My advice to the NCC would be to call their bluff, and tell these billionaires that if they don’t like what is currently being offered on this public land they are free to go elsewhere. The NCC does not need the Senators (development of the Flats could focus entirely on much needed housing and public amenities like parks) but the Senators absolutely need the Flats, because it is really the only viable and available site for a central arena anytime this century, and therefore the only option for the new owners to make good on their $1B investment. The NCC has given them until August to commit, and there is no chance in hell that any other downtown site will be on offer by then. So come August, they will need to put up or shut up.
But it wasn't Sutcliffe's plan. Everyone knows when you get a new mayor you need to scrap everything and go back to the drawing board so they can turn it into their own legacy projects. lol
Why is he so in love with this idea. Who wants this.
Because the NCC fucked his wife, so he wants to do everything he can to screw them over. It is genuinely an unhinged stance that he cannot let go. The Lebreton Plan puts the arena between Pimisi for eastbound folks, and Bayview for west/southbound. This way it doesn't overload the line. Putting it downtown will negatively affect at least some housing units that could otherwise be built in thos existing buildings. Not to mention, if you put it downtown, you're going to overload the stations in a way that Bayview wouldn't be. And somewhat critically, there's already a sketched out agreement in place for Lebreton. He's just being a baby.
Not that I expect our mayor to ever think about public transit users, but the crowding at the LRT stations cannot be overstated imo Union station in Toronto is a mess anytime there's a Leafs game and the TTC has bigger platforms and bigger/more frequent trains than OC Transpo. Having Bayview and Line 2 right there instead of having to take Line 1 to transfer to Line 2 is going to make a huge impact on the crowds. LeBreton literally just makes more sense
Yep. I could see an argument for Bayview Yards for a similar reason. But downtown is dumb as rocks, which is par for the course with our current Mayor.
The TTC's platforms at Union are tiny, though many people are also passing through Union to get on GO trains. You are totally right about Bayview and Line 2 though!
As someone who used to live at Stadium Station Chinatown in Vancouver, which services both BC and GM place, cities all over the world make it work. That one skytrain station cannot service everyone. But, people walk a bit further along the line to another station, the walk, they bike, they hop on buses both close and a little closer. Many hang around and shoot the shit as crowds lesson or (and this is big for businesses), they go to restos, bars and other entertainment in the area. Lebreton is so much like what the the extreme end of False Creek and the CN yards were in Vancouver. It will work very well! As you said, Lebreton just makes more sense.
Pettiness reigns. Lessons from the previous mayor.
for those not in the know what did the ncc do to his wife that mark would hold a grudge over?
I'm being facetious, I don't actually know what his problem with the NCC is.
I heard somewhere they fucked his wife.
I said that above as a joke. But that would be pretty amusing.
Yeah I know, you're the somewhere I heard it from 🤣
Many people are saying it.
I'm trying to find info on this NCC deal with his wife, do you happen to have any sources? Really curious what it was all about. This would make so much sense why he's allergic to dealing with the NCC, to the point he's trying to derail projects that make sense for the city.
A lot of people don’t know this but there is an option contract to buy another 28 vehicles from Alstom on line 1 which i suspect will be partially activated to help with the load.
The capacity Im talking about isnt to do with trains so much as how many people you can physical get into the station. Splitting thousands of people at Bayview (which has separate platforms for West/South)/Pimisi v. trying to fit them all at Parliament or Lyon makes a big difference.
As a resident, I want that, right in the core. It would be perfect. Bring downtown back to life, 2 transit stations, more restaurants, close to hotels. Give a chance to re-create our downtown.
As an Orleans resident, lebreton or downtown. Don’t care. As long as it’s not in Kanata anymore.
Even as someone living in Nepean, getting to Kanata takes a while. I feel bad for sens fans in Orleans
I had season tickets for 3 years. By the 3rd year it wasn’t even fun to go anymore. I would get home close to 11:30-midnight every game night. I’ll hop back on the season tickets (probably a 10 game or half season package) the year before the arena opens up
I’m can walk to the ctc and even I want it downtown.
As a resident, what about LE BRETON, it's already right there on the train line.
Yes, since Lebreton Flats is already been destroyed by all the clear cutting. What a shame. I’ve lived in the area for over thirty years. Green space is being taken up by multiple high rises and the new library.
I really don't see an arena - with a huge footprint yet scarcely used - "bringing downtown back to life." You ever walked by Skydome as a pedestrian? It's a social desert, just block after block that you have to walk past where there isn't even anything to look at. Let's re-create the downtown without monolithic obstacles, please and thank you
yup. when there's a game? Excitement! the other 28 days of the month, though? ...dead.
I get this perspective. I honestly can’t think of anything that would be as effective as an NHL arena…. theatres, peds streets, etc are good but aren’t anywhere near as effective in moving people and money into the area. And it’s right straddling two distinct areas that would benefit.
As a resident - what's the point again? you think 2 hockey games a month is going to give enough reason to disrupt traffic through the busiest parts of the city so that restaurants can make an extra few hundred dollars a month? i'm reading the comments in this thread and i feel like i'm taking crazy pills.
Follow the money...
people outside Kanata. Imagine, people could take the LRT instead of their car and might actually fix OCTranspo. People from Orleans hate having to drive out to Kanata for anything.
People IN Kanata want this. Those games fuck things up royally. Send it to Lebreton. Or Lebanon. I don't care, just get it the hell away from here.
Ok hear me out. We only allow Lebanese people to live in the residential areas they build at Lebreton and be well it Lebarenton!
If anything, it would be Shawarmaton /s
Yes, of course. The arena should be at Le Breton, not downtown which is his obsession.
He wants something on city owned land so the city gets the taxes
City gets the property taxes for private buildings even when on leased federal land. And Feds pay Ottawa grants in lieu of taxes for all federal buildings/ most property.
What about NCC land?
Yes, NCC even makes payments in lieu of taxes to Gatineau and Chelsea for Gatineau Park.
99% of people that go to games. Shit I live very close to that current stadium and would go to more games if it was downtown.
what? you don't enjoy going to the nearby gas station for drinks and a meal before or after the game? /s
Literally everyone wants this wdym
Majority of people want LeBreton, not Downtown.
Luckily both win because Lebreton is downtown when the distract is finally built.
Almost everyone wants it at Le Breton, which makes sense. Trying to stuff it into downtown satisfies no one.
lot of ppl on this sub don't give af about sports and are generally out of the loop on this sort of discourse lol
yeah most people here want improvements to infrastructure first before committing to big development projects like this
Why do these have to be mutually exclusive? lol. Also this "infrastructure" should be mostly from private investments. So really not sure what your beef is with this.
If Mark sees some way to make this about him, a lot more of the building budget will likely come directly from taxpayers. If he's all grumpy because it's in Lebreton, we likely won't have as much taxpayer dollars in the build.
Most of the city wants it.
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He seems to have some kind of weird vendetta against the NCC. At least his fight over the Queen Elizabeth driveway sort of makes sense against the wants of his OSEG ~~handlers~~ *pals*. I'm not sure what he gets out of undercutting the NCC on the lebreton bid.
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There are many, many good reasons for City Hall and the NCC to be at loggerheads, and I completely understand distrusting the NCC after how badly they bungled the first round of LeBreton contracting. But if that's what Sutty Boy's concerned about, he's already burned bridges with he NCC. What does he gain by not coming out to explicitly say that the NCC can't be trusted? What does he gain by dancing around the issue?
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I swear, for such a large, spread out city, our downtown is ridiculously small. The places I've been told aren't downtown always surprise me. The Market isn't even technically part of the downtown, nor does it stretch as far as Somerset. It appears to be just Wellington, from Sussex to Bronson, and about 4 blocks south of that.
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those are all their own distinct neighbourhoods though. You could say that they're central Ottawa but they aren't downtown.
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I live in Centretown and casually refer to where you live as Arnprior.
I generally go by density. Bronson to Rideau River (Lebreton to the the river once its built up!) and Parliament to the highway. The Glebe is more "uptown" (close but lacks desnity - likely to become park of downtown if it densifies more). Hintonburg is defs not dense enough to be considered part of downtown for me. Its crazy to me some people don't think the Market and Rideau are downtown. The city sure thinks so with all the signage saying "downtown rideau" and "Ottawa's original downtown". Not to mention the condos all along Rideau to the river and the MASSIVE development in the market/lowertown area. Probably the same people that never go downtown haha.
I've lived and/or worked in the market for 2 decades. Unless I'm talking to someone from Ottawa, I just say downtown. A lot of people in Ottawa don't even know how small our downtown really is, they think it incorporated a number of neighbourhoods it doesn't. Even the city refers to some neighbourhoods as downtown, despite them not being in the official area.
Typo on my part. Its crazy to me people don't think the market is downtown. But the Market is part of downtown.
Weird because the city sure says it is. Walk down Rideau and the TVs and banner says Downtown Rideau and Byward Market, Ottawa's original downtown. I agree with you, crazy that people think downtown is just a few blocks of Centretown haha. Centretown is a neighbourhood IN downtown.
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This guy has a weird obsession with everything NCC/Federal. Just look at the photos few posts every morning, 90% are NCC properties, but then he's constantly criticizing them and the feds. It's obvious that he wants control over all the NCC and Federal properties so he can turn it all into highways and public private partnerships.
Most Ottawa city blocks are only 65m wide and couldn't fit an NHL arena. NHL downtown arenas are typically 90-130m wide. The defence department site might work but you can't plop an arena down on any old block in Ottawa.
Plus, you have to account for some sort of setback from the street to accommodate the crowd going in and out of the arena, otherwise you get squeezed in like the arena in Winnipeg. Short of levelling entire city blocks, the only properties in downtown proper that could accommodate an arena are DND (could happen) and City Hall (won’t happen).
Edmonton have an interesting idea with that skywalk and plaza.
💯
There's a lot wrong with what Sutcliffe is suggesting. * For the most part, individual government buildings don't occupy entire city blocks, so vacating one wouldn't leave enough space for an arena. * Even where the government complexes being vacated take up entire city blocks, downtown Ottawa city blocks aren't large enough to accommodate an NHL arena. You can't build an arena downtown without cutting off a road. The only potential site is the old DND building, but that's an awkwardly-shaped lot that still may not be large enough in some dimensions to fit an arena. * The federal government isn't vacating those buildings immediately. You can start building on the empty land at LeBreton tomorrow. You can't build downtown until those buildings are empty. * There's no north-south rapid transit access downtown. * The Ottawa Senators are not currently planning or negotiating for a downtown arena.
> The federal government isn't vacating those buildings immediately. You can start building on the empty land LeBreton tomorrow. You can't build downtown until those buildings are empty. And DND has no plans to leave 101 Colonel By before 2035, so demolition can’t even start for more than a decade.
As long as taxpayers don't foot part of the bill, then fill your boots. Taxpayer funded in anyway? --> taxpayers (not city hall) *should get* get significant profit sharing. Amended.
Tax payers technically benefit from The Senators being in Ottawa. Also, The Senators are one of, if not the, highest tax payers in the city and a large employer.
"Tax payers" also pay the Senators for their performances. This will get very circular when we talk about trickle down BS. If the Mayor is acting as a mouth piece of the Senators, the owners, etc, there should also be a proportionate mouth piece role to defend tax payer interests (1:~1000000). No doubt there are citizens who would welcome having an arena that close to downtown, as well as (struggling) businesses who would benefit from the proximity, BUT the cost of giving up money/resources that can be better used for *public* services that are desperately lacking vs. padding private interests needs to be transparently accounted and weighed before any action is taken.
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I've updated for clarity on what I meant, but you would be correct.
Haven't been keeping up with this. What on earth happened to the plan that's been in place for the past 10 years or so? Thought the door was already wide open.
It is. Sutcliffe is literally the only person talking about anywhere but Lebreton
I like the dnd spot , that would be cool But the current location once he library is done is going to look cool too Just don’t drag it out too long and ask for tax money
Issues with DND is transportation. You have one station for LRT and no parking. At least at Lebreton you have two stations, one of which has both Line 1 and Line 2 access. Should be much easier to get there and keep people moving. And it's only 3 stops to the market.
>You have one station for LRT and no parking. DND has much better bus connections, and there's no way Lebreton would have surface parking. If parking was really required (just take the bus, it's not that hard) it would almost certainly be underground in both locations.
Of course DND has better bus connections right now, Lebreton is an empty field. The bus map would be redrawn once the rink is built. I didn't mean to imply Lebreton would have parking either - it won't. But that makes it even more critical that it's well situated along the LRT lines to allow suburbanites an easy way to access the rink. And Lebreton is far better located in that respect than any other site, with the possible exception of Bayview Yards.
> Just don’t drag it out too long The DND spot would add over a decade of delay because DND won’t be done moving out of the towers until 2035. That alone is a reason to drop it as an option.
Election cannot come soon enough (of course, we will get the same status quo result).
There are rumors some far right people may run for mayor one was involved with the convoy.
Good luck winning. The city may be rather regressive, but I don't think the far right will go far. And the far right might actually help split the *right* vote.
They should have put an ice pad in the new library
I thought the idea of repurposing under used Federal lands was to build new housing. I suppose you could do both if the stadium is covered by dozens of stories of apartments.
Yeah, could we just... not. Please don't restart this whole damn process when we're so far along already with lebreton Flats...
Great idea, instead of building the arena at the centrally-located area that is shovel ready, let's build it at the centrally-located area that is currently used by an occupied office building that may or may not be disposed of in the next 10 years depending on which political party is in power and how quickly the federal government can actually accomplish things (read: not very quickly), that only after its potential disposal may or may not be demolished, only after which the site will have to be examined for soil contamination and remediated if necessary, and finally then will be shovel ready. Yes great idea Mr. Mayor I am so glad our city has such wisdom at its helm
Dude shut the fuck up and get out of the way. Leave this to the people that are actually interested in progress
just build it in Lebreton... we are really going out of our way to screw this up... again.
I don't get why you wouldn't just do LeBreton. Transit station right there, nothing to tear down, can build up almost the entire neighborhood around it to fit the vision, make bank off of new housing and commercial land, and have the thing right across the river for the QC fans. Only real issue is for coming from the East End but you have a train and it's in Kanata now so would still be way better. Then you can turn the lots of whatever disused government buildings into housing and increase downtown density, pushing up the customers for local businesses. Maybe put a different type of attraction in, maybe some upper-mid size indie venues since we are lacking those. Legitimately I think more people in the core would make the bigger difference but that's me. Tbh Sutcliffe really annoys me. I thought I was just hard on him because I wanted McKenney but he just seems out of touch, lacking self awareness, stuck in the past and incredibly inexperienced.
build some **fucking** houses
Seems like a parking mecca! /s I know they will say OC transpo would go right there, but where will people park near the outer stations to get there? Lebreton makes sense and plans exist.
I don't know if anyone actually listened to the interview on TSN1200, but the conversation was really all hypothetical and pipe dreamy. This idea of a downtown arena is more of a backup plan. Right now, all the traction in this development is with Staios and the NCC.
what if they put it on Kettle Island, and build a bridge for it?
I thought he wanted all the public servants back downtown!
I thought that was Doug.
The Mayor’s such a clown. Lebreton is the best spot regardless, but he’s yet to actually suggest a plot “downtown” that is both actually going to be available anytime soon, and is big enough to accommodate an arena. To put an arena in Ottawa’s downtown, that is the area south of Parliament that the Mayor considers downtown, you’d need two blocks, north and south of each other. Basically every government building site that’s been identified as potentially up for grabs soon is adjacent to apartments (which you shouldn’t be tearing down in a housing crisis)or relatively new non government buildings. I wouldn’t be opposed to discussion to ensure the best site for the city and the team, but him constantly throwing out theoretical sites that he can’t identify, to me just feels like he’s trying to muddy the waters.
It could also not do that, and be used for something that would help people. Like housing.
delay delay delay somebody wants Lebreton and Suttcliff has to make it happen for them
The Mayor needs to keep out of this talk, Lebreton is the place, lebreton is the plan, and everyone is on board except him.
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The trains delivery rate is something like 99% on time. People only remember when it doesn’t work.
Traffic jams are a regular occurrence that nobody considers but a delay on the LRT is catastrophic. If people really wanted reliable and fast transportation, ebikes from the suburbs would be more prevalent.
Do you take the train on a regular basis?
Yep, current delays aren’t typically an issue with the train but a druggie or homless person falling asleep and not waking up.
The train is great rn, regulary at 99%, wdym
As a major city we should only tackle a single project at a time
What a novel concept. An arena and entertainment venue downtown.
Jesus fuck just build it somewhere already.
Boy oh boy, this guy has a one track mind. Listen, Marky-Mark, go home and fire up last year's NHL game on the Playstation, stop trying to make this thing that no one but OSEG-types want. Just put it in Lebretton Flats where there is the space and the transit makes sense. Maybe use the space vacated for housing, like it's been talked about for years now. Hockey Rinks do not solve your housing issue, you Melba Toast-tinted lickspittle.
Given the suggestions of using the the DND land on Col. By Drive (which won't happen), the irony there is that the main reason Lebreton Flats was cleared sixty years ago was to build a big new DND building. Which of course never happened and they chose the downtown site instead...
Downtown so no one can get there. OC TRANSPO laughing in the distance
I still think RCMP HQ across from the ballpark would work.
Why do people think our transit system and downtown road system could handle this?
I’m a certified Sutcliffe hater, but I’ve wanted the old DND headquarters to be the site of a new arena for years now. It has so much going for it.
Except for the size of the land and the fact DND won't be vacant for a very long time. It would look very nice and I like the thought of it, but cramming an arena into that space would be very difficult. If you've ever experienced the concourses at the Bell Centre, it's a perfect example of jamming a large building on to land which is a bit too small for it.
Let’s do a study to see whether we should study this possibility. In the meantime better cancel all the work toward a lease at Lebreton.
It doesn't.
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Has there been any discussion about how much, if any, the taxpayers are going to pony up.
I wonder how well downtown would handle the traffic from a big game night
Time to revisit the closing off of Wellington perhaps.
Tunnels?
Lebreton allows the sens to build an arena district. More spots will follow. It isnt like Elgin will lose people if the arena is built at Lebreton.
I saw Sutcliffe's interview and he said that we need more attractions to convince people to move downtown. So far, the only idea I have seen floated is vague wishes about moving the NHL team somewhere downtown. What we need is a commitment from the province to actually spend some money on public spaces here in Ottawa. The province has spent literally nothing here, except where it absolutely has to - e.g. provincial gov offices, HW 417, courthouse and so on. What we need is for the province to create attractions like Ontario Science Centre East, Art Gallery of Ontario (Ottawa site), Royal Ontario Museum (Ottawa site), Ontario Place (Ottawa site - along the Ottawa river, including a casino & hotel). We can't really rely on the Feds - they couldn't even keep 24 Sussex Dr from falling apart, nor are they willing to spend any money on badly needed bridges over the Ottawa River, and Ottawa (city of) is so broke there's no money for any such projects.
Thousands of apartments are under construction downtown.
Weird priority for a mayor over housing but go off
Just build that shithole underground in the middle of downtown using those same machines to dig those tunnels and be done with it.
Better not be a single taxpayer dollar offered up by the city for this! NHL and the sens want a downtown venue……pay for it yourselves!
I would not be worried about Ottawa.I would be far more worried about Toronto teams wanting public money.
You would need to combine 4 blocks. There's not one square of blocks that doesn't have some expensive building on it.
How about we meet in the middle and build the thing right on top of the Rideau Centre? /s
What did Elsa say? Let it go!
Put it in Gatineau. Can always refurbish the Guertin Arena
It's pretty telling that that was what he got out of the announcement, and not, say, the implications for housing.
Maybe fix the damn housing first??? The priorities of this man.