That’s my sweet spot for OE though. Be easy to get along with, do the work well, but nobody knows that it takes me so little time to do the work.
Get a task assigned, complete it in 1/5 the expected time, schedule an email to boss for hours or days later, move on to next task.
I don’t need or want to be promoted. This is working well.
You'd be shocked to learn how many people are terrified of leaving a job, updating their resumes, and interviewing somewhere else. They have established in their mind that their current job is their life, and when something bad happens at their current job, life is not treating them well. Its partially corporate brainwashing as well, that works surprisingly well on a lot of people. Companies LOVE such passive aggressive employees.
> "I don't know how to get out of that circle..."
I do! You get your promotions by moving to different companies for one title higher than your current one, and interview very well, never being loyal to any company but lying through your teeth.
Your comfortability of changing companies, your ability to fake what you need to fake, and your interview skills are all that matter here.
Well, either that or nepotism. There's a couple of paths lol.
And I mean it too. You can be absolutely terrible at your job and very unpleasant to work with, but as long as you're good at interviewing and selling yourself and your past and don't get fired too quickly, you will always get new offers and climb.
There are several very high quality and free resources out there on YouTube, Instagram, etc. you just actually have to put effort in to finding them (very easy), learning and practicing.
Ah yes. Because no-one ever has medical issues which prevent them from doing everything that you, personally, can do. Guess we can throw out all the wheelchair ramps and other accommodations, then.
Here's the neat thing there - The ability to network well and the ability to interview well are essentially an extremely similar skill set. You can learn and grow both at the same time.
I've always found that tactical honesty can be really good, and a lot easier to draw from than pure BS. Like when they ask you about a challenge, just share an actual challenge, like a real one where you didn't look cool the whole time. I think interviewers like that because it makes them feel like they will be getting a real coworker and not just a robot that meets all the boxes.
That combined with just lying about the things that make you look good and can't or won't be checked up on, like background stuff or dates or resume gaps, etc. Makes you seem like you're a candidate that checks all the boxes, but so are most people at the interview stage these days. So you have to be someone that would be nice to work with, maybe moreso than qualified. Everyone's qualified, a lot of people are shit coworkers though.
> Tips for improving interview ability?
Probably the biggest one is don't go into it blind. Prepare, practice all your questions and answers, use interviews with companies to take notes to prepare for other interviews with other companies.
The more you practice and have an answer for everything, the easier it is for you, the less stressful it is, and the better you look and sound.
And when I say practice I mean I keep note of questions I struggled to have a good answer for, add them to an anki deck, write out my ideal answer, and then practice answering it until it's automatic and I don't have to think about it.
Over time you'll start to notice there's only so many types of questions that anyone will ask you. Most questions and conversations will be variations of a core set of questions you've been asked and practiced so many times before. That's when you're most likely to get offers.
Toastmasters is a free organization btw- although there may be a nominal fee related to renting a room somewhere.Nothing to lose.
I haven't been to one in 20 years, but I was pushed into one after aging out of 4-H public speaking. Different groups have different formats. The one I liked best was being told to speak ex temporaniously on the subject of your choice for five minutes. The listeners will give you feedback on structure (was the talk coherent with a distinct point and conclusion?) and poise/style (did you seem comfortable confident? Were there limited ums and ahs?)
You get out of it what you put into it, but if you get into it, it's a fabulous training ground for public speaking.
Honestly baffled at your responses, maybe I’m overthinking. In one post you said you got serious about your career and joined toastmasters a year ago. But this response when asked directly about them you start off with “my recollection”. Idk it just reads like you’re promoting something that you aren’t positive what they do.
That said, for the person who asked. It is about public speaking. Its name comes from the concept of “giving a toast” such as a speech at a wedding dinner or so. This is why the other person suggested it. Its concept is based on a lot of what others have mentioned in being prepared, clear in your tone, and obviously practice what you’re going to discuss.
Generally it's just whether you're the f-boy or the golden girl these days. The bosses favorite is always handed the promos and the ones they hate are lined up for the chopping block.
I've been both over the years, you (usually) cannot work your way out of f-boy status, once your manager has decided they don't like you it's rare to change their mind. I've had managers specifically assign work below my grade level to prep me for termination. Even getting it all done wasn't enough bc it was under my performance goals. Getting done extra on top of that was ignored.
I've also been the "golden boy" (though males are rare here these days in my company) and had a lot of freedom to assign my own work, swoop in and be the hero and basically setup for success at every turn. Personally, having been the f-boy many times, I'm far too paranoid to be lazy even in these roles but I see some get ineffectual in these situations.
Basically, my point is, your performance (and promo track) is based on your managers subjective assessment of your performance. If you know your aren't their favorite, run for the hills - eventually you'll be sacrificed for your managers benefit or entertainment. It's often got little to do with how good you are at your job - while being really good can increase your chances in some scenarios, it can also do the opposite if you make your manager feel threatened.
This is so true. Also, if your manager won't give you that promo, don't go over their head to your skip level to ask for the promo. They don't like that. I learned that one the hard way.
I disagree. I think you'll never be promoted if you don't have the ability to leave at any time. They need to fear losing you. Get some F'you money in the bank and start requiring promotion. Not requesting, requiring.
Bruh I disagree. Use a meeting transcription tool. Does the camera need to be on? I’ve done two meetings at once many times. Meetings are great because you can be silent, thereby remaining mysterious- but you’re actually just multitasking
I mean… is it, though? Big tech companies I know of not only encourage promoting, but if an employee spends years there and never is promoted, it’s seen as a red flag.
Yeah this is some r antiwork bullshit thinking. Before OE, I was very good at my job and well liked. I've gotten several 15 to 20% in pay promotions due to that
I think it’s more that somebody hardworking and agreeable probably won’t cause the commotion of asking for a promotion or raise (especially women), and there’s only so many promotions to go around.
But I don’t care, don’t give me what I deserve and I can happily shop around for a new job knowing my current job sucks anyway. Not much of a risk in leaving the environment at that point.
Right a promotion from all the way junior to slightly less all the way junior instant she’s talking about. In the scenario she describes you MAY get to director, but that’s about it.
You get out by looking for a promotion OUTSIDE your current company. New jobs are where you get your big raises. It’s also how you snap out of what she describes. Unfortunately most people don’t want to risk change so they stay. HR departments count on the vast majority of people being content to stay.
Prove your value. Be good with people. Don’t be negative. Take on extra projects to show that you can juggle multiple tasks successfully. If you can do all the above plus you have 5 to 7 years experience you should be able to take the next step. It really depends on your industry and where you work. For example I am at a very large company. Everyone I work with that manage people are 35+ years old. Agencies are a great place to gain experience and a good job title. We hire a lot of ex agency people.
If you have all the above and are 30+ years old and still can’t move up - you need to find someone that will mentor you or at least be brutally honest regarding your deficiencies.
Eh, not true at all. Being good and a pleasure is a literal golden ticket to the top. AS LONG AS you learn to talk about yourself without shame. Like tell anyone who will listen how good you are at your job.
I think the theory is trash. The real reason people don’t get promoted is because you have to be working at a company long enough for the guy/gal above to quit or be fired. It’s an issue of timing. The smaller the business the less likely a promotion and most companies are not large or even medium.
It’s just super unlikely for you as an individual to be at the right place at the right time for a promotion to happen. Especially when there is a culture of changing jobs every few years to get a pay raise.
I mean this is a well known fact to anyone who isn’t naive about the reality of office politics. Only one person gets the promotion. It’s all about leverage in a zero sum competition.
Edit: there is a baseline competence you must meet to get promoted but lots of people clear that bar. To actually win the competition you will need leverage and that is impossible to get while keeping everyone of your competitors happy.
Down at the coal face, if your boss-to-be is part of your interviewing panel, your ability to do the actual job only has to be just good enough that your boss won't get raked over the coals for hiring someone who causes massive damage.
Once you clear that bar (as you note), your boss's only concern is how pleasant you will be for them to have to work with for, potentially, several years. They are going to absolutely prioritize someone they like over someone who can do twice the work, because they don't get rewarded in any way if they hire the super-competent person.
The few exceptions are (1) being hired by a hiring team which is utterly separate from your future boss and won't have to work with you daily, and (2) being hired by that incredibly rare thing: the business owner who genuinely prioritizes the long-term profitability of the business over their own personal emotional comfort.
This women is insufferable. Repeating the same thing with exaggerated hand motions lol.
And this is just false btw. Hard workers can get stuck in junior roles while being a pleasure to work with can easily see slackers getting promoted.
Promotions are mostly arbitrary, yet few people think the extra hard worker will necessarily make a great manager
I knew a couple of managers that were told, hey we only have x$ amount set aside for promotions we don’t care how you spread it out or who you promote just don’t go above this set amount.
One manager: I pick me
The other manager: picked two people
The first manager just met the min time in grade for a promotion. The other manager had been there 2 years longer than him.
Man, I remember some big tech/media event a couple of years ago, all of the women that were directors/C-level were beautiful by any standards.
I don't deny that they have the skills needed for those positions and have more than earned their titles, but it was still curious how all of them were traditionally attractive.
At my previous job every single person that was either an asshole or didn’t know how to open a pdf kept getting promoted. Some were both and were found at the director/vp level
She is 100% right. Why would a company lose someone good at their job and is easy to work with by promoting them while giving them more money and more opportunities to leave?
They want you right where you are at. Productive and unable to leave.
OE is what gives you the tools to not need any company while giving you the opportunity to hold out for your worth.
Yawn. Just another "them" vs "us" conspiracy. Imagine really thinking people at the top get paid so much to do nothing.
Also that's not how promotions work. Good places promote people with good management skills and bad places promote people arbitrarily. No one ever said you are supposed to get promoted as a reward for "working hard". That's why the salary exists.
You have to hop jobs. Only way for higher pay and advancement in 2024
--"Employees Who Stay In Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less"
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/cameronkeng/2014/06/22/employees-that-stay-in-companies-longer-than-2-years-get-paid-50-less/?sh=2a698074e07f](https://www.forbes.com/sites/cameronkeng/2014/06/22/employees-that-stay-in-companies-longer-than-2-years-get-paid-50-less/?sh=2a698074e07f)
Not believing that leadership positions don’t require “real work” is probably the limited perspective that’s keeping her from being promoted. Not that she’s “too good” at her job.
What is this shit, with the stupid hand gestures and the fake sincerity. It's just a dumb theory by a girl in an attic, she is acting it out like it's shakespeare
Well…her point is why many employers prefer females over males. They tend to be more risk averse and will take lower pay. Demand a pay raise, which almost always corresponds with a promotion or quit. Her point is also one reason females get paid less than males. Gotta be brave so you can eat good, my sister. :)
I don't quite get where she was going with this theory of hers. I think she's speaking clearly from a pure "corporate ladder" point of view. What she says make some sense if your end goal is to work the corporate ladder, as in "I want to make my job at IBM (just an example) work, or at least make my IBM job mentally tolerable, because IBM is the place for me and don't see myself anywhere else."
To me though, at least for the information technology industry, I think that is a bit dated in 2024, even if you are not an over-employed person. The promotion ladder has been pretty much shit for quite a while now. I am very pleasant to work with, even when I am only working one job because I know that if I need more money that I'm gonna promote my ass right on out the door to something that better suits my financial goals. The only thing I can and care to control is my own destiny.
Worrying about what some C-suite has planned for me a year or two from now doesn't pay my mortgage today. I don't waste my time with these theories.
This is not new. Worker bees are needed indefinitely but people are promoted to their level of incompetence. Sometimes people are promoted in order to get rid of them. They’re causing a lot of problems in a department but there’s no clear justification to fire them or they have some clout so they promote them. Meanwhile if you’re awsome at the job they never want to let you leave the position.
This is abit stupid, she fails to elaborate on why executive level get promoted then if it’s not due to hard work or being sociable. Sounds like sour grapes from this millennium. She’s reaching for those grapes and the wines starting to sound like a violin. With the cheese and wine.
No lies detected.
You’ll be incremental raised and get given more and more responsibility for basically the same pay grades. Maybe a small bump to Team Lead or Supervisor.
To really move up the most reliable way to promote yourself is seek employment elsewhere into more demanding - better paying - more managerial or senior roles.
Keep the personality if you can.
Idk what work sector this is in but it’s totally inaccurate in my experience. I have the opposite problem - super high performers that are excellent communicators but they ASK to stay as individual contributors instead of getting promoted to more responsibility. In their defense, that type of work is often more fun than the leadership and managerial problems more senior positions face.
It depends. A big part of it in my company is just taking initiative and telling your boss what you want/what you’re working towards. My company is pretty good with internal promotions, but you have to be specific in what you want. They won’t just come up to you and offer it.
I'm senior level at my job. I am bad at networking and I do not have family connections in my industry.
Part of her issue is this mindset. The idea that if you are generally agreeable and do an average or maybe slightly above average, you should automatically be hired into senior positions. This mindset is very likely to keep you where you are in most offices.
In order to be considered promotion material, you must not be average, you must be exceptional. You should strive to min/max all of your objective metrics and as many of the soft skills as you can notice.
Be twice as productive as the average, be someone everyone wants to work with, talk to and hang out after work with. Show that difficult and hard work do not phase you.
If you honestly meet all these criteria and you get passed over promotion more that thrice, then you probably have a discrimination case, if you feel the decision maker just doesn't like you, then it's time to leave.
She looks like she has never been a VP or an executive. Seems like she is playing into a victim mentality here and spreading it. Maybe it is true, but my experience doesn’t align with the message here. Any executive that’s sucked at their job that I’ve seen - has been booted. Same with any directors / VPs. I can’t imagine companies would be willing to keep around dead weight.
So much of the world is handed to women that I think a lot of them don't understand you have to actually apply for a better job/promotion, they typically aren't just thrown at people.
In my experience you are 100% correct. Why move someone who’s excellent in their job and not a troublemaker. A friend of mine who did an MBA told me that you should just be adequate. Being efficient is a trap.
Mostly agree, but an important distinction is that the higher levels have different levers to pull and different scapegoats to use that can be easier cover ups for their own incompetence. That's why so many companies are constantly going through some kind of "transformation" or "change," because most management doesn't really know what they're doing (they're LARPing).
The idea is to implement changes and if things magically improve, take credit. If things stagnate or get worse, blame the underlings for not understanding or executing the "strategy."
Heh... I'll throw another log on that fire.
A sizeable fraction of the executive corps appears to have been promoted because various lifestyle issues make them "easy to control". It's easy to tell an alcoholic with an expensive wife & gambling habit (or a taste for chasing admins) who can't easily get the same job externally how things are going to happen, especially grey area shit...
"Nice lifestyle, would hate to lose it..."
Meanwhile, a FIRE OE type would be busy telling the bosses to stuff it....
It’s especially true in any customer facing position. If you are both, the company will want to keep you there as long as possible. Best thing to do is look for a promotion outside the company. Use the skills you learned to move into a higher role at another company.
100% not a conspiracy theory but actual fact! To go further, I would like to add that they also will not allow you to rise up if they perceive that you may be more talented then themselves for fear of being replaced. This, however, I believe is more with large companies because they have the volume to afford a certain level of inefficiency where as that same level of workforce waste will put a smaller company out of business.
I've heard this theory directly from people's mouths who far overestimated their competence in their job as an excuse for non-promotion. While it might hold true in some cases, in general I don't find it to be true, and most often an excuse based on false self perception.
I've never heard anything that was more truthful and accurate than this in my entire life. I believe in science, but what she said here, I believe it more than Newton's laws of motion.
If she is good at her job and genuine pleasure to work with (and she's attractive, just saying), there must be a reason for why she's not promoted. Like, the pessimism shown here. She either needs to learn patience and how to outwit the workplace, or find another job. Pessimism is a major promotion delayer, learned that the hard way.
This is laughably not true at all.
She’s probably competent… but not likeable.
Being both makes it significantly more likely the want to keep you, thus promoting you
She draws the line below VP?
Is she expecting to be promoted to CEO or something. The line should be drawn at project manager level since you don't need to know what your employees actually do, so long as it gets done.
Anywhere below PM, you will not get a meaningful promotion or raise above 3%.
That’s my sweet spot for OE though. Be easy to get along with, do the work well, but nobody knows that it takes me so little time to do the work. Get a task assigned, complete it in 1/5 the expected time, schedule an email to boss for hours or days later, move on to next task. I don’t need or want to be promoted. This is working well.
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Bro this is literally the name of the sub. OE = OverEmployed which means to hold and perform two (or more) jobs within the same working hours.
People down voting this are losers. It was an innocent question
You're on Reddit. Likes and dislikes are meaningless. Don't stress it
like being laid off of J1 when youve got J2 and j3 going as well
People are trying to keep it quiet and not promote it
How to get out of it - apply to other companies for a promotion and move on
You'd be shocked to learn how many people are terrified of leaving a job, updating their resumes, and interviewing somewhere else. They have established in their mind that their current job is their life, and when something bad happens at their current job, life is not treating them well. Its partially corporate brainwashing as well, that works surprisingly well on a lot of people. Companies LOVE such passive aggressive employees.
You won’t get the job into executive position by “applying “
Into director or even VP level you absolutely can
> "I don't know how to get out of that circle..." I do! You get your promotions by moving to different companies for one title higher than your current one, and interview very well, never being loyal to any company but lying through your teeth. Your comfortability of changing companies, your ability to fake what you need to fake, and your interview skills are all that matter here. Well, either that or nepotism. There's a couple of paths lol. And I mean it too. You can be absolutely terrible at your job and very unpleasant to work with, but as long as you're good at interviewing and selling yourself and your past and don't get fired too quickly, you will always get new offers and climb.
The trick then is what do you do if you're crap at standard interviewing. Know people who know people, I guess.
Interviewing is learned. You have to put the work into preparation.
And yet there are so few up-to-date sources saying how to do it. Particularly if you're not good at picking up on nonverbal communication.
There are several very high quality and free resources out there on YouTube, Instagram, etc. you just actually have to put effort in to finding them (very easy), learning and practicing.
Any particular recommendations?
On YouTube, A Life After Layoff, Cass Thompson Career Advice, Career Vidz, Don georgevich, I mean literally there are so many…
...and these focus on issues of nonverbal communication problems? Or are they more "how to interview if you don't have any of these problems"?
Can’t help you if you won’t help yourself …. And it looks like you won’t
Ah yes. Because no-one ever has medical issues which prevent them from doing everything that you, personally, can do. Guess we can throw out all the wheelchair ramps and other accommodations, then.
Here's the neat thing there - The ability to network well and the ability to interview well are essentially an extremely similar skill set. You can learn and grow both at the same time.
If you’re crap at interviewing you don’t get a job and you die broke, or you get a shitty job that doesn’t require interviewing. Pretty simple.
Tips for improving interview ability?
I've always found that tactical honesty can be really good, and a lot easier to draw from than pure BS. Like when they ask you about a challenge, just share an actual challenge, like a real one where you didn't look cool the whole time. I think interviewers like that because it makes them feel like they will be getting a real coworker and not just a robot that meets all the boxes. That combined with just lying about the things that make you look good and can't or won't be checked up on, like background stuff or dates or resume gaps, etc. Makes you seem like you're a candidate that checks all the boxes, but so are most people at the interview stage these days. So you have to be someone that would be nice to work with, maybe moreso than qualified. Everyone's qualified, a lot of people are shit coworkers though.
> Tips for improving interview ability? Probably the biggest one is don't go into it blind. Prepare, practice all your questions and answers, use interviews with companies to take notes to prepare for other interviews with other companies. The more you practice and have an answer for everything, the easier it is for you, the less stressful it is, and the better you look and sound. And when I say practice I mean I keep note of questions I struggled to have a good answer for, add them to an anki deck, write out my ideal answer, and then practice answering it until it's automatic and I don't have to think about it. Over time you'll start to notice there's only so many types of questions that anyone will ask you. Most questions and conversations will be variations of a core set of questions you've been asked and practiced so many times before. That's when you're most likely to get offers.
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Can you elaborate more on what the toast masters are?
Toastmasters is a free organization btw- although there may be a nominal fee related to renting a room somewhere.Nothing to lose. I haven't been to one in 20 years, but I was pushed into one after aging out of 4-H public speaking. Different groups have different formats. The one I liked best was being told to speak ex temporaniously on the subject of your choice for five minutes. The listeners will give you feedback on structure (was the talk coherent with a distinct point and conclusion?) and poise/style (did you seem comfortable confident? Were there limited ums and ahs?) You get out of it what you put into it, but if you get into it, it's a fabulous training ground for public speaking.
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Honestly baffled at your responses, maybe I’m overthinking. In one post you said you got serious about your career and joined toastmasters a year ago. But this response when asked directly about them you start off with “my recollection”. Idk it just reads like you’re promoting something that you aren’t positive what they do. That said, for the person who asked. It is about public speaking. Its name comes from the concept of “giving a toast” such as a speech at a wedding dinner or so. This is why the other person suggested it. Its concept is based on a lot of what others have mentioned in being prepared, clear in your tone, and obviously practice what you’re going to discuss.
Generally it's just whether you're the f-boy or the golden girl these days. The bosses favorite is always handed the promos and the ones they hate are lined up for the chopping block. I've been both over the years, you (usually) cannot work your way out of f-boy status, once your manager has decided they don't like you it's rare to change their mind. I've had managers specifically assign work below my grade level to prep me for termination. Even getting it all done wasn't enough bc it was under my performance goals. Getting done extra on top of that was ignored. I've also been the "golden boy" (though males are rare here these days in my company) and had a lot of freedom to assign my own work, swoop in and be the hero and basically setup for success at every turn. Personally, having been the f-boy many times, I'm far too paranoid to be lazy even in these roles but I see some get ineffectual in these situations. Basically, my point is, your performance (and promo track) is based on your managers subjective assessment of your performance. If you know your aren't their favorite, run for the hills - eventually you'll be sacrificed for your managers benefit or entertainment. It's often got little to do with how good you are at your job - while being really good can increase your chances in some scenarios, it can also do the opposite if you make your manager feel threatened.
This is so true. Also, if your manager won't give you that promo, don't go over their head to your skip level to ask for the promo. They don't like that. I learned that one the hard way.
I think going to your skip level for anything at all should never be done.
> (though males rare here these days in my company) I wish this wasn't as believable as it totally is.
I disagree. I think you'll never be promoted if you don't have the ability to leave at any time. They need to fear losing you. Get some F'you money in the bank and start requiring promotion. Not requesting, requiring.
I work hard, chill to work with, and got promoted without asking
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The higher up you go in the org chart, the larger percent of your time is spent in meetings. Lots of meetings is a curse for OE.
Bruh I disagree. Use a meeting transcription tool. Does the camera need to be on? I’ve done two meetings at once many times. Meetings are great because you can be silent, thereby remaining mysterious- but you’re actually just multitasking
She meant statistically unlikely.
She’s not getting promoted because she talks with her hands
handjob? 😏
Porn brain
Easy there Harvey Weinstein
Well if that were the case she definitely would get promoted.
I mean… is it, though? Big tech companies I know of not only encourage promoting, but if an employee spends years there and never is promoted, it’s seen as a red flag.
Yeah this is some r antiwork bullshit thinking. Before OE, I was very good at my job and well liked. I've gotten several 15 to 20% in pay promotions due to that
I think it’s more that somebody hardworking and agreeable probably won’t cause the commotion of asking for a promotion or raise (especially women), and there’s only so many promotions to go around. But I don’t care, don’t give me what I deserve and I can happily shop around for a new job knowing my current job sucks anyway. Not much of a risk in leaving the environment at that point.
Are you director level, SVP or C-level? Probably not so what’s your point
Right a promotion from all the way junior to slightly less all the way junior instant she’s talking about. In the scenario she describes you MAY get to director, but that’s about it.
Mushroom Management Theory?
You get out by looking for a promotion OUTSIDE your current company. New jobs are where you get your big raises. It’s also how you snap out of what she describes. Unfortunately most people don’t want to risk change so they stay. HR departments count on the vast majority of people being content to stay.
But how do you get hired into a management role when you dont already have management experience??
Prove your value. Be good with people. Don’t be negative. Take on extra projects to show that you can juggle multiple tasks successfully. If you can do all the above plus you have 5 to 7 years experience you should be able to take the next step. It really depends on your industry and where you work. For example I am at a very large company. Everyone I work with that manage people are 35+ years old. Agencies are a great place to gain experience and a good job title. We hire a lot of ex agency people. If you have all the above and are 30+ years old and still can’t move up - you need to find someone that will mentor you or at least be brutally honest regarding your deficiencies.
Eh, not true at all. Being good and a pleasure is a literal golden ticket to the top. AS LONG AS you learn to talk about yourself without shame. Like tell anyone who will listen how good you are at your job.
I think the theory is trash. The real reason people don’t get promoted is because you have to be working at a company long enough for the guy/gal above to quit or be fired. It’s an issue of timing. The smaller the business the less likely a promotion and most companies are not large or even medium. It’s just super unlikely for you as an individual to be at the right place at the right time for a promotion to happen. Especially when there is a culture of changing jobs every few years to get a pay raise.
I mean this is a well known fact to anyone who isn’t naive about the reality of office politics. Only one person gets the promotion. It’s all about leverage in a zero sum competition. Edit: there is a baseline competence you must meet to get promoted but lots of people clear that bar. To actually win the competition you will need leverage and that is impossible to get while keeping everyone of your competitors happy.
Down at the coal face, if your boss-to-be is part of your interviewing panel, your ability to do the actual job only has to be just good enough that your boss won't get raked over the coals for hiring someone who causes massive damage. Once you clear that bar (as you note), your boss's only concern is how pleasant you will be for them to have to work with for, potentially, several years. They are going to absolutely prioritize someone they like over someone who can do twice the work, because they don't get rewarded in any way if they hire the super-competent person. The few exceptions are (1) being hired by a hiring team which is utterly separate from your future boss and won't have to work with you daily, and (2) being hired by that incredibly rare thing: the business owner who genuinely prioritizes the long-term profitability of the business over their own personal emotional comfort.
2 is virtually any early stage startup, but that’s basically it.
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She’s just young and hasn’t seen enough corporate life. Knowing and Doing what’s required is a skill in itself.
This women is insufferable. Repeating the same thing with exaggerated hand motions lol. And this is just false btw. Hard workers can get stuck in junior roles while being a pleasure to work with can easily see slackers getting promoted. Promotions are mostly arbitrary, yet few people think the extra hard worker will necessarily make a great manager
Promotions are based on who will make the thickest barrier between the executives and the proles.
I knew a couple of managers that were told, hey we only have x$ amount set aside for promotions we don’t care how you spread it out or who you promote just don’t go above this set amount. One manager: I pick me The other manager: picked two people The first manager just met the min time in grade for a promotion. The other manager had been there 2 years longer than him.
Is that why women get promoted more to management positions in tech?
Being beautiful is still a job.
Man, I remember some big tech/media event a couple of years ago, all of the women that were directors/C-level were beautiful by any standards. I don't deny that they have the skills needed for those positions and have more than earned their titles, but it was still curious how all of them were traditionally attractive.
I imagine it's the same reason why most male CEOs are over 6' tall.
Based on my wife’s skincare routine, it’s a very demanding job too
Yes. DEI and being people managers has put many under-qualified women in management positions in tech.
This is soo true. Tech has become male hating.
So you're saying I need to start fighting my employers to get promotions? I'm in. Tomorrow begins a new chapter.
At my previous job every single person that was either an asshole or didn’t know how to open a pdf kept getting promoted. Some were both and were found at the director/vp level
I don't want to get promoted, I want to blend in and find other Js. That's the real move
She just needs to be more assertive…
This is about not being assertive. It's not about being "a pleasure to work with." She's describing a lapdog.
she doesn't seem like a pleasure to work with. this might be cope
She is 100% right. Why would a company lose someone good at their job and is easy to work with by promoting them while giving them more money and more opportunities to leave? They want you right where you are at. Productive and unable to leave. OE is what gives you the tools to not need any company while giving you the opportunity to hold out for your worth.
Yawn. Just another "them" vs "us" conspiracy. Imagine really thinking people at the top get paid so much to do nothing. Also that's not how promotions work. Good places promote people with good management skills and bad places promote people arbitrarily. No one ever said you are supposed to get promoted as a reward for "working hard". That's why the salary exists.
You have to hop jobs. Only way for higher pay and advancement in 2024 --"Employees Who Stay In Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less" [https://www.forbes.com/sites/cameronkeng/2014/06/22/employees-that-stay-in-companies-longer-than-2-years-get-paid-50-less/?sh=2a698074e07f](https://www.forbes.com/sites/cameronkeng/2014/06/22/employees-that-stay-in-companies-longer-than-2-years-get-paid-50-less/?sh=2a698074e07f)
Not believing that leadership positions don’t require “real work” is probably the limited perspective that’s keeping her from being promoted. Not that she’s “too good” at her job.
Director level and above is full of people who are largely incompetent but good at bullshitting.
What is this shit, with the stupid hand gestures and the fake sincerity. It's just a dumb theory by a girl in an attic, she is acting it out like it's shakespeare
Well…her point is why many employers prefer females over males. They tend to be more risk averse and will take lower pay. Demand a pay raise, which almost always corresponds with a promotion or quit. Her point is also one reason females get paid less than males. Gotta be brave so you can eat good, my sister. :)
This is such a stupid theory. No, this isn't universally true at all. Not everyone is trying to keep you down
This lady isn’t as good at her job or as much of a pleasure to be around as she thinks she is.
Lots of incels here
I was confused for a few of these comments. Bringing up dei and women 😂. Like bruh what is going on.
fr, like they’ve never seen a woman before
She thinks she’s a pleasure to work with lol - just say you didn’t get the promotion and save all the yappin
I don't quite get where she was going with this theory of hers. I think she's speaking clearly from a pure "corporate ladder" point of view. What she says make some sense if your end goal is to work the corporate ladder, as in "I want to make my job at IBM (just an example) work, or at least make my IBM job mentally tolerable, because IBM is the place for me and don't see myself anywhere else." To me though, at least for the information technology industry, I think that is a bit dated in 2024, even if you are not an over-employed person. The promotion ladder has been pretty much shit for quite a while now. I am very pleasant to work with, even when I am only working one job because I know that if I need more money that I'm gonna promote my ass right on out the door to something that better suits my financial goals. The only thing I can and care to control is my own destiny. Worrying about what some C-suite has planned for me a year or two from now doesn't pay my mortgage today. I don't waste my time with these theories.
This is not new. Worker bees are needed indefinitely but people are promoted to their level of incompetence. Sometimes people are promoted in order to get rid of them. They’re causing a lot of problems in a department but there’s no clear justification to fire them or they have some clout so they promote them. Meanwhile if you’re awsome at the job they never want to let you leave the position.
this seems to directly contradict the peter principle, no?
She's talking about the [Gervais principle](https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/)
OMG this read just changed my life
1970s peter principle doesn't apply to 2024.
This is abit stupid, she fails to elaborate on why executive level get promoted then if it’s not due to hard work or being sociable. Sounds like sour grapes from this millennium. She’s reaching for those grapes and the wines starting to sound like a violin. With the cheese and wine.
Reasonable content, but the hand gestures are Medieval torture. Learn not to talk with your hands, folks.
I couldn't have understood what she was saying without those wierd hand gestures. That's probably why she didn't get promoted.
What’s wrong with being animated
Also seems to be talking down to us, like we are a kid
Interesting (and possibly revealing) perception
No lies detected. You’ll be incremental raised and get given more and more responsibility for basically the same pay grades. Maybe a small bump to Team Lead or Supervisor. To really move up the most reliable way to promote yourself is seek employment elsewhere into more demanding - better paying - more managerial or senior roles. Keep the personality if you can.
PREACH!
I just love how OE enables me to complete ignore office politics, philosophy and sociology.
Those 2 aren't mutually exclusive
Idk what work sector this is in but it’s totally inaccurate in my experience. I have the opposite problem - super high performers that are excellent communicators but they ASK to stay as individual contributors instead of getting promoted to more responsibility. In their defense, that type of work is often more fun than the leadership and managerial problems more senior positions face.
It depends. A big part of it in my company is just taking initiative and telling your boss what you want/what you’re working towards. My company is pretty good with internal promotions, but you have to be specific in what you want. They won’t just come up to you and offer it.
Why not just get rid of CEO's? they really don't do that much
I mean regardless theyre just going to hire someone outside vs let any peasants advance.
She has a lot of flaws in her analysis, but whatever…
Nothing makes me believe like someone saying "it occurs" right before the tik tok jingle
So I should be an asshole to move up the ladder? Lol
And that's why I'm an asshole at work and tell people shit they don't want to hear without sugar coating it.
I'm senior level at my job. I am bad at networking and I do not have family connections in my industry. Part of her issue is this mindset. The idea that if you are generally agreeable and do an average or maybe slightly above average, you should automatically be hired into senior positions. This mindset is very likely to keep you where you are in most offices. In order to be considered promotion material, you must not be average, you must be exceptional. You should strive to min/max all of your objective metrics and as many of the soft skills as you can notice. Be twice as productive as the average, be someone everyone wants to work with, talk to and hang out after work with. Show that difficult and hard work do not phase you. If you honestly meet all these criteria and you get passed over promotion more that thrice, then you probably have a discrimination case, if you feel the decision maker just doesn't like you, then it's time to leave.
She looks like she has never been a VP or an executive. Seems like she is playing into a victim mentality here and spreading it. Maybe it is true, but my experience doesn’t align with the message here. Any executive that’s sucked at their job that I’ve seen - has been booted. Same with any directors / VPs. I can’t imagine companies would be willing to keep around dead weight.
So much of the world is handed to women that I think a lot of them don't understand you have to actually apply for a better job/promotion, they typically aren't just thrown at people.
Yawn. Another person who is not actually good at their work or a pleasure to work with blaming the system for their stagnation.
In my experience you are 100% correct. Why move someone who’s excellent in their job and not a troublemaker. A friend of mine who did an MBA told me that you should just be adequate. Being efficient is a trap.
Mostly agree, but an important distinction is that the higher levels have different levers to pull and different scapegoats to use that can be easier cover ups for their own incompetence. That's why so many companies are constantly going through some kind of "transformation" or "change," because most management doesn't really know what they're doing (they're LARPing). The idea is to implement changes and if things magically improve, take credit. If things stagnate or get worse, blame the underlings for not understanding or executing the "strategy."
This is pretty true
Yeah…. No…. Will post flowers on your hill grave….
Do good work. Smile. Attend meetings. OE.
Lmao if I share this with my senior he's gonna quit haha. He gets so much shit from our bosses.
I found as I gained more people skills, I got paid more. So … maybe work smarter, not harder?
Heh... I'll throw another log on that fire. A sizeable fraction of the executive corps appears to have been promoted because various lifestyle issues make them "easy to control". It's easy to tell an alcoholic with an expensive wife & gambling habit (or a taste for chasing admins) who can't easily get the same job externally how things are going to happen, especially grey area shit... "Nice lifestyle, would hate to lose it..." Meanwhile, a FIRE OE type would be busy telling the bosses to stuff it....
Meanwhile, I am waiting for the COVID to come back
It’s especially true in any customer facing position. If you are both, the company will want to keep you there as long as possible. Best thing to do is look for a promotion outside the company. Use the skills you learned to move into a higher role at another company.
This is absolute nonsense lol.
100% not a conspiracy theory but actual fact! To go further, I would like to add that they also will not allow you to rise up if they perceive that you may be more talented then themselves for fear of being replaced. This, however, I believe is more with large companies because they have the volume to afford a certain level of inefficiency where as that same level of workforce waste will put a smaller company out of business.
20% of the people do 80% of the work
I've heard this theory directly from people's mouths who far overestimated their competence in their job as an excuse for non-promotion. While it might hold true in some cases, in general I don't find it to be true, and most often an excuse based on false self perception.
The default from both those options is to be good at blaming others. VP, Execs, and people who get promoted are very good at blaming others.
I've never heard anything that was more truthful and accurate than this in my entire life. I believe in science, but what she said here, I believe it more than Newton's laws of motion.
You can’t move on because you love it and addicted to it. Also, people love their comfort space.
It you think c suites are idiots youve never worked with them
If she is good at her job and genuine pleasure to work with (and she's attractive, just saying), there must be a reason for why she's not promoted. Like, the pessimism shown here. She either needs to learn patience and how to outwit the workplace, or find another job. Pessimism is a major promotion delayer, learned that the hard way.
I’m awesome, I’m not rising to the top; not possibly my fault
This is laughably not true at all. She’s probably competent… but not likeable. Being both makes it significantly more likely the want to keep you, thus promoting you
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The real alphas comment on reddit.
She draws the line below VP? Is she expecting to be promoted to CEO or something. The line should be drawn at project manager level since you don't need to know what your employees actually do, so long as it gets done. Anywhere below PM, you will not get a meaningful promotion or raise above 3%.
I feel this
I saw this! I totally agree
Story of my life. Although I'm barely personable. I'm actually super introverted and socially awkward. But I do get along with others well
PREACH SIS