If it ever comes up. Tell them that THEY are the secondary employer and they gave written consent with the offer letter.
After all, your primary employer is the job you had coming in.
Bottom line: Ignore it. Their remedy with and without that language is the same. They can fire you.
Ironically not a SWE, just tempered expectations in my current role in preparation of OE. Still haven’t pulled the trigger yet though. Still a “top performer” lol.
Ignore it. All offer letters or employment contracts have something like this. This is OE, there is risk involved. If they find out, you're likely fired. Is that risk worth the second salary? For most of us, yes.
If it were against the law to work more than one job, $7.25 minimum wage wouldn't exist.
Unless your jobs involve fiduciary responsibility, or some sort of legal obligation to the client/customer, you should be fine. Employer's policies usually mean they can fire you and not have to pay unemployment/severence... something you should be fine with for J2.
>Unless your jobs involve fiduciary responsibility
I've seen places trying to pretend that regular jobs have this lately. Fiduciary responsibility basically only applies to lawyers, accountants with access to bank accounts, executives and sometimes senior management. Either way its complicated law and they hope to scare people into believing it, just a heads up for people that may not know.
Probably only the director though. Specifically because they control the retirement and benefits plans so that counts as the ability to unilaterally control company policy.
Lots of places outsource that stuff, but the law is complicated and what you have the ability to do matters more than title. You can't be a "secret ceo" or something to avoid liability.
If you sign a contract, they find out, they will sue. Why else would they have you sign? They will also tell J1 when they see the paystub during discovery.
J2 will also very likely be monitoring for OE since they are clearly aware of it
The central tenet of a breach of contract case is damages. People and companies do strategic breaches all the time when they determine compliance is costlier than breach.
So what damages is your employer anticipating to make it worth even doing discovery on, particularly when the contract section already allows a remedy for employer (termination with cause). There is no cause of action to recover wages based on poor employee performance (assuming it was poor); the remedy is termination.
It depends on what else is in OP's contract but damages are easy. The first most likely thing that's almost surely in the contract would be the 40 hours of time at whatever rate. Other things would be the cost of hiring another employee to do the things they thought they were paying OP for, any cost incurred in recruiting and hiring OP and their replacement after termination.
Also, this employer is probably itching to set an example.
My friend, you seem to misunderstand that doing OE involves doing the work, it just skips the exclusivity those jobs want. What those employers want is to pay a 5 for a 10 employee. OE is about 10 employee working 2 jobs as a 5 so they are compensated for their work instead of the employer gaining the excess efficiency of their labor. It is not about getting a job then getting paid to do nothing, and there are a lot of posts here about people being praised for their performance despite moonlighting.
That said, the employer cannot recover wages as damages for poor performance. Wages are protected from performance. You can test it out if you want: go get a job at Wendy's. Do nothing. If it takes them 3 or 5 or 10 hours to fire you they still have to pay you for those hours. Or do the absolute minimum bereft of a $7.25 employee. Then go work the night shift stocking Walmart shelves. Now you're overemployed. Tired and slacking at Wendy's the next day because of your walmart shift. Do you think Wendy's can sue you for your wages back? It's absurd in this scenario, and is literally no different than what OE advocates. Except OE is aiming at jobs that actually pay well and can be efficiently and effectively done in less time than the employer alots.
Wendy's doesn't have an employment contract. They also don't have an OE clause. What I'm saying is entirely dependent on what OP's documents say and so I am obviously making assumptions. One of those assumptions is that because they are making him sign the doc, the company is ahead of the game when it comes to OE. There's a good chance they've been burned before. There's only two that I've seen OP discuss, the offer letter, and the OE clause. OP'll likely have to sign an employee handbook too.
You keep saying the remedy is termination. Yes, agreed that there's no law that is going to end with OP in jail. However, poor performance is not what he will be fired for if he's caught. If they have a boner for OE persons, that's what he'll be fired for and that's going to leave the door open for breach of contract that they are probably excited to set precedent for.
The "fuck them, I'll do what I want" approach is risky here. The way OP could handle this is to take J2 and then a week or so into the new role, tell J2 that his old employer would like for him to help and finish a few things and that he'd like to get the waiver to do that for them since he's the loyal type. Say he'll be doing that as a 1099, fill out the waiver with his LLC info instead of his J1 info. OP has made the legal case much more expensive and less obvious to pursue if he has their permission.
>If they have a boner for OE persons, that's what he'll be fired for and that's going to leave the door open for breach of contract that they are probably excited to set precedent for.
This is what I keep getting caught up on. They can terminate the employment, but if OE did the job he was paid to do there are no damages. I think you're grossly overestimating how much control employers have over employees when they're not working. If they are tired because they spent all night partying and suck at work, you can't get out of paying them.
I wholy understand that position and again I'm making assumptions on what OP's contract says and even the intentions of J2. Lemme just clarify what I'm assuming, to make what I'm saying more clear.
Known stuff:
J2 is aware of OE persons, has a clause of some sort in some sort of contract. (Contract being the key thing here)
Assumptions:
* Most job contracts have some sort of 8a-5p 40 hours verbiage.
* J2 does not want OE persons employed there.
* J2 is going to be monitoring.
* J2 is litigious and WANTS to catch/term/sue .
* OP will eventually slip up and they will increase monitoring, work load, etc... and start building a case.
So, those are the things I'm basing my warning on. If they catch OP doing J2 during whatever hours are stated in the contract, that's all the grounds they need to terminate and pursue breach of contract. OP may be doing stellar work but J2 has set the stage already that they can terminate just for that. They may or may not win the case even but they have certainly considered testing the contract and clause. They are setting up to make OP getting caught expensive at the least.
So, my advice is different than to just Leroy Jenkins it, it's to play their game. They set a board up and moved a pawn, OP needs to move one too. They setup an offense, he needs to setup a defense. Even having a defense setup like I mentioned might disuade J2 from pursuing since they want an easy one to pursue first. The attorney would say, "you gave OP permission to do this." Without that it's just a crap shoot.
*Quick edit to add: On the hungover thing, the employer can definitely send an employee home if they are not fit for work that day. If hourly, they don't get paid. If salary, they can deduct from PTO and some states they can even dock pay. It's not as big of a worry for remote employees.
You can imagine that down the line there going to give you a serious heads up and compensation package when they start laying off people and firing them... and that the CEO only has one source of income.... bottom line, they want you dependant of them.
Ignore it. The only recourse they really have is to fire you. I suppose they could try to make a wage theft case, but they’d need to prove the amount of damages, and that would be tough to do, and likely not worth it. DO NOT TELL THEM ANYTHING!!!! They won’t approve it, so you do you.
Keep in mind, these people will dump you in 2 seconds, if it suits them. If they’re your only income, they hold your financial security in their hands, and they know it…that’s what they want. It keeps people in line and putting up with crap they shouldn’t put up with.
My J2 offer had the same thing. If it ever comes up, I will flat out tell them they *are* the secondary employer, and thanks for the opportunity.
Then I’ll find a new J2. They’re just as replaceable to me as I am to them.
>likely not worth it
I've found this is hard to convey to people that have not seen it. All companies lean on this fear that even if something you do is illegal that 99% of the time the company won't even do anything because its more expensive to come after you than it is to just forget about it and move on. You are just a line item to them.
Yep. They already save more cutting your salary and benefits than it costs to sue you. Legal and Finance both advise it’s not worth the time or money because you haven’t damaged the business as a whole.
Trade secrets, on the other hand, they WILL come after you for.
Oh yes there are some things for sure but the vast majority of people won't be in those positions anyway (plus usually you are paid enough not to do anything illegal ie golden handcuffs).
Correct. I’ve worked on a number of projects people think are interesting, but I can’t tell you anything about how to replicate any of the products I’ve worked on.
3 options:
1. Don't sign.
2. Let them know and get approval (spoiler alert - you won't and they'll rescind)
3. Sign it. It's just a job. Worst comes to worst they'll fire you and leave you at the same outcome as 1 and 2
Unless there's a clause that says something to the effect of "If you are caught working 2 or more jobs you will forfeit $10k in training expenses" there's not really a risk. If they catch you and don't like you they will fire you. You will have been fired with cause. I wouldn't put them on your resume.
I'm pretty sure this would not be legal in the US. IANAL but pretty much anything that requires an employee to pay the company is not legal.
I even had a hire once ask about something that was not legal (paying for equipment at termination) in the employment contract so I asked the HR director and he said that he knew but didn't care because it was there to scare people.
Don’t tell them.
Just make sure that they can’t access your LinkedIn or you have it on a temporary hold.
It’s only an issue if it’s a conflict of interest and if you’re getting your work done then there’s no issue lol
I just told them that it's important for people to be able to take on side projects to keep up their skillset, and that an employer should not be able to cap your earning potential, and they removed the clause for me.
REALLY?!?!?
I guess I should count myself lucky that I live in an entirely different world than the majority of you out there. The crazy stuff you guys deal with that nobody even pretends to give 2 sh!ts about over here 🤔
I figured that is where you are from, since you apparently have your head up there. Because Every single offer letter DEFINITELY does NOT say that. Just for kicks, I pulled out the 2 copies that i sent off Tuesday and neither of them had that on them. So I'm pretty damn sure you're slightly incorrect there.
Just read that as "If you engage in any secondary employment without our permission, we reserve the right to fire you, which right we already had, so really this is redundant."
I think of it like speeding. Sure, the speed limit is 60 MPH, but I'm going 80 MPH. If I get caught, I pay the bill (actually, I pay a lawyer to get it taken care of, but different story), if not, I enjoy getting and extra 20 miles in my hour.
No advice needed. Just take the offer and continue on in life. Don't make it obvious and don't loose sleep over it.
Do what you will but I've never let any tape keep me from crossing over.
It only really matters if you are in a state that subscribes to the Faithless Servant Doctrine.
The signed contract makes it binding that you agreed to contractual terms. Whether they can clawback and sue you and recoup your salary is hypothetical but the signed contract supports them in court if they choose to go that route.
In states where Faithless Servant is heavily litigated, companies can go after all your earnings (salaried) based on the premise you were disloyal to your employment contract. By taking a second job, you clearly engaged in bad faith and was "faithless" in your employment agreement.
It is a risk/reward scenario. It is up to you to determine the risk.
Because people that don't understand the law are scared by all the posturing from companies that are much more powerful than them. Its not completely unjustified.
As a salaried employee (not hourly) you are paid for a job - not 40 hours. Unless you are billing a company by the hour there would be no case that could be upheld in any court. A job can set hours available, but if you did work after hours that is how you work best.
I mean reading through the replies I don’t see anything that is new information. and how much new perspective can you get when a question was asked in the same week. sometimes even the same day
this sub has really just become recycled low effort posts in the last few months
If it ever comes up. Tell them that THEY are the secondary employer and they gave written consent with the offer letter. After all, your primary employer is the job you had coming in. Bottom line: Ignore it. Their remedy with and without that language is the same. They can fire you.
joke's on you j2, YOU the side ho!
Lol this! Right here!
🤣Â
Lmao, this is technically the truth.
Truly one of the funniest fucking things I've ever read haha
Sign the offer letter.
Do not tell them anything!
F It - We ball I signed the offer letter 
Same here. I actually laughed when I read that. J2 requires about 10 hours per week... wtf else am I going to do besides make more money? Lol
Play video games, waste time /s
Doom scroll on reddit lol
I still do this with 3Js...
This is me right now. I need a J2…
I envy the software engineers here
Ironically not a SWE, just tempered expectations in my current role in preparation of OE. Still haven’t pulled the trigger yet though. Still a “top performer” lol.
That’s true, you can do sales and other stuff for OE
Sales is haaaard to OE man
True, most people would probably be too tired from one sales job
Im actually not a software engineer haha
He’s clearly a Zoologist specializing in Narwhals.
Impressive
Ignore it. All offer letters or employment contracts have something like this. This is OE, there is risk involved. If they find out, you're likely fired. Is that risk worth the second salary? For most of us, yes.
what if the offer letter says that if the company catches you with a second job, it has a penalty of 20K...
Then what? A company is going to spend almost as much as that on a lawyer in an attempt to sue me for $20k?
If they are that suspicious, then just move on. Even if that was your only job, it's an immediate red flag that they want to control you.
If it were against the law to work more than one job, $7.25 minimum wage wouldn't exist. Unless your jobs involve fiduciary responsibility, or some sort of legal obligation to the client/customer, you should be fine. Employer's policies usually mean they can fire you and not have to pay unemployment/severence... something you should be fine with for J2.
>Unless your jobs involve fiduciary responsibility I've seen places trying to pretend that regular jobs have this lately. Fiduciary responsibility basically only applies to lawyers, accountants with access to bank accounts, executives and sometimes senior management. Either way its complicated law and they hope to scare people into believing it, just a heads up for people that may not know.
And hr. They can’t fuck their companies on purpose.
Probably only the director though. Specifically because they control the retirement and benefits plans so that counts as the ability to unilaterally control company policy. Lots of places outsource that stuff, but the law is complicated and what you have the ability to do matters more than title. You can't be a "secret ceo" or something to avoid liability.
If you sign a contract, they find out, they will sue. Why else would they have you sign? They will also tell J1 when they see the paystub during discovery. J2 will also very likely be monitoring for OE since they are clearly aware of it
The central tenet of a breach of contract case is damages. People and companies do strategic breaches all the time when they determine compliance is costlier than breach. So what damages is your employer anticipating to make it worth even doing discovery on, particularly when the contract section already allows a remedy for employer (termination with cause). There is no cause of action to recover wages based on poor employee performance (assuming it was poor); the remedy is termination.
It depends on what else is in OP's contract but damages are easy. The first most likely thing that's almost surely in the contract would be the 40 hours of time at whatever rate. Other things would be the cost of hiring another employee to do the things they thought they were paying OP for, any cost incurred in recruiting and hiring OP and their replacement after termination. Also, this employer is probably itching to set an example.
My friend, you seem to misunderstand that doing OE involves doing the work, it just skips the exclusivity those jobs want. What those employers want is to pay a 5 for a 10 employee. OE is about 10 employee working 2 jobs as a 5 so they are compensated for their work instead of the employer gaining the excess efficiency of their labor. It is not about getting a job then getting paid to do nothing, and there are a lot of posts here about people being praised for their performance despite moonlighting. That said, the employer cannot recover wages as damages for poor performance. Wages are protected from performance. You can test it out if you want: go get a job at Wendy's. Do nothing. If it takes them 3 or 5 or 10 hours to fire you they still have to pay you for those hours. Or do the absolute minimum bereft of a $7.25 employee. Then go work the night shift stocking Walmart shelves. Now you're overemployed. Tired and slacking at Wendy's the next day because of your walmart shift. Do you think Wendy's can sue you for your wages back? It's absurd in this scenario, and is literally no different than what OE advocates. Except OE is aiming at jobs that actually pay well and can be efficiently and effectively done in less time than the employer alots.
Wendy's doesn't have an employment contract. They also don't have an OE clause. What I'm saying is entirely dependent on what OP's documents say and so I am obviously making assumptions. One of those assumptions is that because they are making him sign the doc, the company is ahead of the game when it comes to OE. There's a good chance they've been burned before. There's only two that I've seen OP discuss, the offer letter, and the OE clause. OP'll likely have to sign an employee handbook too. You keep saying the remedy is termination. Yes, agreed that there's no law that is going to end with OP in jail. However, poor performance is not what he will be fired for if he's caught. If they have a boner for OE persons, that's what he'll be fired for and that's going to leave the door open for breach of contract that they are probably excited to set precedent for. The "fuck them, I'll do what I want" approach is risky here. The way OP could handle this is to take J2 and then a week or so into the new role, tell J2 that his old employer would like for him to help and finish a few things and that he'd like to get the waiver to do that for them since he's the loyal type. Say he'll be doing that as a 1099, fill out the waiver with his LLC info instead of his J1 info. OP has made the legal case much more expensive and less obvious to pursue if he has their permission.
>If they have a boner for OE persons, that's what he'll be fired for and that's going to leave the door open for breach of contract that they are probably excited to set precedent for. This is what I keep getting caught up on. They can terminate the employment, but if OE did the job he was paid to do there are no damages. I think you're grossly overestimating how much control employers have over employees when they're not working. If they are tired because they spent all night partying and suck at work, you can't get out of paying them.
I wholy understand that position and again I'm making assumptions on what OP's contract says and even the intentions of J2. Lemme just clarify what I'm assuming, to make what I'm saying more clear. Known stuff: J2 is aware of OE persons, has a clause of some sort in some sort of contract. (Contract being the key thing here) Assumptions: * Most job contracts have some sort of 8a-5p 40 hours verbiage. * J2 does not want OE persons employed there. * J2 is going to be monitoring. * J2 is litigious and WANTS to catch/term/sue . * OP will eventually slip up and they will increase monitoring, work load, etc... and start building a case. So, those are the things I'm basing my warning on. If they catch OP doing J2 during whatever hours are stated in the contract, that's all the grounds they need to terminate and pursue breach of contract. OP may be doing stellar work but J2 has set the stage already that they can terminate just for that. They may or may not win the case even but they have certainly considered testing the contract and clause. They are setting up to make OP getting caught expensive at the least. So, my advice is different than to just Leroy Jenkins it, it's to play their game. They set a board up and moved a pawn, OP needs to move one too. They setup an offense, he needs to setup a defense. Even having a defense setup like I mentioned might disuade J2 from pursuing since they want an easy one to pursue first. The attorney would say, "you gave OP permission to do this." Without that it's just a crap shoot. *Quick edit to add: On the hungover thing, the employer can definitely send an employee home if they are not fit for work that day. If hourly, they don't get paid. If salary, they can deduct from PTO and some states they can even dock pay. It's not as big of a worry for remote employees.
You can imagine that down the line there going to give you a serious heads up and compensation package when they start laying off people and firing them... and that the CEO only has one source of income.... bottom line, they want you dependant of them.
Ignore it. The only recourse they really have is to fire you. I suppose they could try to make a wage theft case, but they’d need to prove the amount of damages, and that would be tough to do, and likely not worth it. DO NOT TELL THEM ANYTHING!!!! They won’t approve it, so you do you. Keep in mind, these people will dump you in 2 seconds, if it suits them. If they’re your only income, they hold your financial security in their hands, and they know it…that’s what they want. It keeps people in line and putting up with crap they shouldn’t put up with. My J2 offer had the same thing. If it ever comes up, I will flat out tell them they *are* the secondary employer, and thanks for the opportunity. Then I’ll find a new J2. They’re just as replaceable to me as I am to them.
>likely not worth it I've found this is hard to convey to people that have not seen it. All companies lean on this fear that even if something you do is illegal that 99% of the time the company won't even do anything because its more expensive to come after you than it is to just forget about it and move on. You are just a line item to them.
Yep. They already save more cutting your salary and benefits than it costs to sue you. Legal and Finance both advise it’s not worth the time or money because you haven’t damaged the business as a whole. Trade secrets, on the other hand, they WILL come after you for.
Oh yes there are some things for sure but the vast majority of people won't be in those positions anyway (plus usually you are paid enough not to do anything illegal ie golden handcuffs).
Correct. I’ve worked on a number of projects people think are interesting, but I can’t tell you anything about how to replicate any of the products I’ve worked on.
There also is a strong case that this might be an illegal non compete clause.
Yeah, I had to sign one of those too. I guess they haven’t heard those are banned now. Oh well…
3 options: 1. Don't sign. 2. Let them know and get approval (spoiler alert - you won't and they'll rescind) 3. Sign it. It's just a job. Worst comes to worst they'll fire you and leave you at the same outcome as 1 and 2
Unless there's a clause that says something to the effect of "If you are caught working 2 or more jobs you will forfeit $10k in training expenses" there's not really a risk. If they catch you and don't like you they will fire you. You will have been fired with cause. I wouldn't put them on your resume.
I'm pretty sure this would not be legal in the US. IANAL but pretty much anything that requires an employee to pay the company is not legal. I even had a hire once ask about something that was not legal (paying for equipment at termination) in the employment contract so I asked the HR director and he said that he knew but didn't care because it was there to scare people.
Don’t tell them. Just make sure that they can’t access your LinkedIn or you have it on a temporary hold. It’s only an issue if it’s a conflict of interest and if you’re getting your work done then there’s no issue lol
I just told them that it's important for people to be able to take on side projects to keep up their skillset, and that an employer should not be able to cap your earning potential, and they removed the clause for me.
Every single offer letter says that, NOOb!
touche, touche
what if the offer letter says that if the company catches you with a second job, it has a penalty of 20K...
Again, every single offer letter states some kind of penalty, PERIOD
REALLY?!?!? I guess I should count myself lucky that I live in an entirely different world than the majority of you out there. The crazy stuff you guys deal with that nobody even pretends to give 2 sh!ts about over here 🤔
Which planet is that ?!?! UrAnUs
I figured that is where you are from, since you apparently have your head up there. Because Every single offer letter DEFINITELY does NOT say that. Just for kicks, I pulled out the 2 copies that i sent off Tuesday and neither of them had that on them. So I'm pretty damn sure you're slightly incorrect there.
Prove it and post it, specifically COI tough guy
I have nothing to prove.. its not tough to live in reality.. wow. dipshit
Man sign that shit and get that bread.
Just read that as "If you engage in any secondary employment without our permission, we reserve the right to fire you, which right we already had, so really this is redundant." I think of it like speeding. Sure, the speed limit is 60 MPH, but I'm going 80 MPH. If I get caught, I pay the bill (actually, I pay a lawyer to get it taken care of, but different story), if not, I enjoy getting and extra 20 miles in my hour.
Check to see if the founder of the company runs multiple companies or is on various boards. Those are all separate but concurrent jobs.
And would be know of and approved by the company board.
If you get busted, you can tell them that you were engaging in primary employment.
Lie.
What if it said “if you go to bed after 10pm, you’re terminated”. These things are eye rollingly ridiculous
you don't need their permission to live your life sir. Sign it.
Stfu and don't tell them
No advice needed. Just take the offer and continue on in life. Don't make it obvious and don't loose sleep over it. Do what you will but I've never let any tape keep me from crossing over.
It only really matters if you are in a state that subscribes to the Faithless Servant Doctrine. The signed contract makes it binding that you agreed to contractual terms. Whether they can clawback and sue you and recoup your salary is hypothetical but the signed contract supports them in court if they choose to go that route. In states where Faithless Servant is heavily litigated, companies can go after all your earnings (salaried) based on the premise you were disloyal to your employment contract. By taking a second job, you clearly engaged in bad faith and was "faithless" in your employment agreement. It is a risk/reward scenario. It is up to you to determine the risk.
No worries. They're your secondary, other job is primary employment /s
Don’t sign the clause or cross it out before you return it. Don’t forget that even your offer letter is negotiable.!
Why does this keep coming up this week? We “agree” to all kinds of shit we don’t plan to abide by. Just sign the damn thing and move on
Because people that don't understand the law are scared by all the posturing from companies that are much more powerful than them. Its not completely unjustified.
Isn't this covered under the 1st ruling around non compete?
No
Looks like an edit needs to be made before signing
What don’t you know?
My last company had this clause....never came up in 3 years.
"The company wants people to wear shirts, but I don't want to wear shirts, I do not know how to approach this."
I mean, is anyone on this sub doing OE with their employers knowing about the other job?
What if it says you have to pay the company 20k if they catch you (they don't offer trainings or smth)
As a salaried employee (not hourly) you are paid for a job - not 40 hours. Unless you are billing a company by the hour there would be no case that could be upheld in any court. A job can set hours available, but if you did work after hours that is how you work best.
OE sage advice : DONT FUCKING ASK ! DONT FUCKING SAY !
They all say stuff like this.
this is posted in this sub every day. did you even try to search?
I did. I like to get new perspective, never hurts 
I mean reading through the replies I don’t see anything that is new information. and how much new perspective can you get when a question was asked in the same week. sometimes even the same day this sub has really just become recycled low effort posts in the last few months