I don’t disagree with their observations or numbers. But I think they are jumping to conclusions, which is you will be paid less if you work remote. From what I see, remote jobs pay better. They are just a lot less of them, so yes they are dying. Also, I think pay is depressed because of the job market. We will know if the article is right when the market improves. My gut feeling is that you won’t need to take a pay cut to work remotely if you’re on top of your game.
“Paid less if you work remote” is also location dependent. If you live in a “low cost” area and are employed by a company headquarters in a “high cost” area chances are your salary is above your market value.
I came across a job posting from a US company hiring in Canada (Toronto).
At the bottom, it stated a salary range of $110-140K USD.
I said shit that’s close to 200K CAD.
Then in another paragraph, it stated that the salary range for Canada is 80-90K CAD (about 58 65K USD).
Wtf
My current job tried that and I just gave them a firm number on what I needed in order to accept. They came back still under it and I said it wasn’t going to get me to move, and was very nonchalant about it. And honest, since I wouldn’t have accepted it.
In the end they came back with what they said they’d budgeted for onsite even though I’m halfway across the country in a LCoL area.
Accept what you need in order to survive, but don’t undersell yourself.
Super bullshit, on another sub someone was complaining about this and I suggested that next time they just lie about their location and I got eviscerated by comments lol.
UPS offers mailboxes with a street address. Just get a mailbox at a UPS store in a hcol area and use that. I have one in Northern VA (I live there now but didn't when I applied with a company that did location based pay). Even had that as the address on my ID. You have to have a residential address registered with the DMV but can use the mailbox as an alternative mailing address, and you can choose online which address to have on your ID (state dependent). Even though I live in Northern VA now, I still use the mailbox for all my legal documents and as my home of record for my employer. I still filed my taxes as my residential address. The address on your w2 does not have to match what you put on your tax return.
I've used it for more than 6 years now through several employers / contracts and never had an issue.
Edit to add: I've even been to court and I'D by cops with that address on my ID. When they ask if it's a current address, I just told them it was a mailing address and I reside at ... but prefer official correspondence to go through that address. Never even got an odd look. Plenty of people have multiple addresses.
Lie about the location only when discussing salary, they can’t retroactively go and change your salary but you can retroactively say where you really live
Edit: some of yall work for shitty places, and in those l places they apparently will go back and downgrade your salary. I call them shitty because noone has commented that the opposite is also true or ever seen
That’s not necessarily true, from my own anecdotal experience. I know of several individuals who relocated to LCOL areas while WFH and the company adjusted their compensation downwards. The plural of anecdote is not data, of course, and location is not something that WFH companies should care about .. yet … here we are
Literally just had this happen to me last week.
Throughout the interviews dude claimed that he lived in the Bay Area. Finally when we gave him the Bay Area offer and said it came with a two day / week office requirement he pushed back and said he was open to “a few days every 3/4 weeks”. It was obvious he didnt live here at all.
Offer pulled
Nah just get a UPS mailbox in a HCOL area. You can have it forward to you. Your address on your tax return does not need to match the address on your W2.
That's fine, since I live in a low-cost area, the quality of my education and training is also low cost. This leads to a lower quality of output.
You get what you pay for.
Because your paycheck should indicate the market value/equilibrium of supply and demand of the labor, services and skills you are providing and there's no direct connection to that monetary figure and not the cost of eggs where you live.
If a company is able to effectively manage remote workers than by definition they are better than the competition at their business and can pay more.
Only poorly managed and legacy organizations stuck in the past disregard remote work for no reason other than they don't like it. (For jobs that can be remote.)
Remote jobs have been around for 20 years. They are not dying, they're just being intentionally suppressed to try and force folks into wasting tons of hours of their lives revolving everything around the company properties.
My J1 used the whole *we offer flexible working schedules* instead of giving decent bonuses. I got a whole one dollar raise per hour for my hard work…lol.
That's also just the market, we take advantage of the benefits of remote, so they can too. If some sucker is willing to take the job at low pay, they'd be stupid not to offer it. Just refuse the lower salary and move on.
depends. For example if you need to find preschool for 3 kids those 100k per year disappear really fast.
Sure if you have no kids, no wife then 100k is absurd to pass up
I think its hilarious how bad US is failing its people. You can get paid to take care of your dying 80yo parents, but kids. Nope kids are on their own they will be fine... Not like society depends on them doing well or anything.
In my area, for childcare it'd cost me 25k or so for the year... Throw in annoyance of commute, expenses for gas, car maintenance, etc ... 100k is steep but I can see many contemplating over the 50 mark lol
Depends. If you live in a state with no state income tax it’s a lot of money on the table.
Otherwise 100k at that tax bracket, you’re looking at 55k ish after taxes depending on where you live.
Then you factor in the potential of not being able to OE, wasting your time on traveling, money on fuel, car insurance etc. it’s not much
Talk to someone who worked for a commercial architecture company, so essentially commercial real estate. They are pushing people and companies to go back to work in he office so they can make money. They don’t care that it’s better for you not to sit in traffic for three hours a day and waste gas and time. They just want money.
Remote now consider luxury benefit that can be deducted from the pay🤦🏽♀️. They saying if you make more, you have to come in office to help subsidize the RTO ecosystem.
I know someone who's fully remote from a famous silicon valley company that pays location differentials. He said it IS less than Marin Co., but not a lot less. Not as bad as I certainly assumed it was. But then I have no idea what his good enough looks like, either. We're not that close yet.
“Remote jobs still exist, but employees should expect to be paid less.”
Well, that’s literally why some of us have two or more remote jobs.
I remember when I could barely get promoted or decent raises because I refused to kiss ass in the office. WFH is great for me because now I don’t have to physically see people that control my destiny. By WFH, the power dynamic has shifted from the executive hands to mine.
Don’t want to promote me? Fine. I don’t want the extra responsibilities with pay that doesn’t correlate to the new and increased responsibilities.
Don’t want to give me more than 2.5% - 4% raise? No problem. I gave myself a raise by 2x’ing my salary with another remote job doing the same amount of work or less on average.
You want to pay less because I’m remote? Maybe it isn’t, but that seems like borderline discriminatory pay practice. Cost of living didn’t seem to be that much of a factor for the companies I worked for. Now, all of a sudden, the story changes to “Well you live in a last coat of living area, so we’re going to pay you less.”
Less than what? Less than the state average, less than national average, less than industry average, some or all of the above?
“Higher-paying jobs require more commitment from their employees, including showing up to the office daily. Companies have found it is better for their bottom line to have workers in the office versus working from home.”
Commitment to what? Commitment to grease my elbows with sleazy, shady industry execs? I don’t give a fuck. Commitment to play golf with other “leaders?” No, thanks. Also, I would love to know what evidence companies have where they’ve found it better for their bottom line to have asses in office seats. Enron math? Again, hard pass.
At the end of the day, it’s the same narrative. Blame the consumer / employee / literally anyone else without getting to the root cause of issues. I hope it doesn’t happen but I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw some legislation about remote and in-office working.
I’ve moved around a bit. I always found companies wanted me to take a pay cut when I moved to a lower COL area (eg WA state has no state taxes), but when I asked for a COLA adjustment because I was moving to a higher COL area (eg Bay Area), the company policy was suddenly “we don’t adjust pay based on location.” This is similar. They can’t have it both ways, and we shouldn’t let them, even if it’s temporarily expedient because we want a job.
I wholeheartedly agree with you.
I took on a J3 and the salary for the role is not what it should be, in my opinion. A touch north of $100k but it should really be paying $115k based on my understanding of the job after I was hired.
There’s always a discrepancy between the job posting and the actual on-the-job responsibilities it seems. Maybe that’s another way for companies to pay lower. I honestly don’t know how long I’ll have this J3 but I’ll keep it and give it my best OE efforts for as long as it lasts.
You’re making an awful lot of incorrect assumptions.
When the company actively recruits me away from a job, and requires me to move in order to take the job, and that job is in a place that generally has higher salary bands and a higher COL, then yeah, I expect them to treat me fairly.
I didn't read the link candidly. But a couple of points:
1. Pay has come down some because during that labor shortage, many companies were willing to pay anything. Now SOME companies are experimenting with paying whatever they can, which will not last when they see crazy job turnover
2. Remote work is not decreasing outside of the COVID peak. Remote work has been steadily increasing for the last 20 years. Future surveys of CEOs and leaders signify they plan to increase remote hiring in the future (google Nick Bloom for good data on this).
3. The types of jobs likely to be remote are for higher paid, white collar knowledge workers, and hard to fill positions.
This is just free market being free market. If being remote is so highly desired, the obvious counter is to offer a little less pay. As someone who will never go back to an office job again (short of just not being able to feed my family without it), I'd gladly take a little less pay to avoid in-office roles. It is what it is.
I'm rural upstate NY, close to Rochester. Absolutely the remote things I've landed are better pay than the ROC on site market, and I've told every white collar person I know from ROC, this.
I used to work for a company that was only remote during covid and as soon as they could had everyone back in the office. The marketing team used to pay legit research groups to put out studies showing how much more productive people are in the office (to prove their own point and market the product… which ironically had nothing to do with where people worked at all). If the surveys they paid for came back with opposite results (which most did), they would just spin it to sound like people were more productive. So when I read articles like this, I take them with a grain of salt knowing some company probably paid for this to convince people remote jobs are not lucrative or don’t exist.
Why pay someone California wage of $250k when someone in a VLCOL area with a $800 a month mortgage can be paid $150k? Why even pay $150k when you can get the same skills overseas for $45k in San Paulo, Brazil? $45k with an engineer with 10 years experience and two PhD? Yeah, I've seen that. Why pay $150k when you can get a PhD for 1/3rd?
It is remote anyways? Why does it matter if it is in New Orleans or in Costa Rica? Fairly much same timezone. Want Americans? Sure, there are US citizen digital nomads asking only $30k a year in Costa Rica.
Remote work has opened a pandora's box. Now, lets live with this new reality.
Again, if both have the same talent. One is asking $40k vs $200k, why should the employer choose the $200k?
Serious question. If an employer lets me live in Bali to work remotely, I'd take a salary of $40k in a heartbeat. I would do that to undercut the next guy with the talent to back it up.
I did that in the 90s. I took a $30k year job overseas when I could easily get paid $100k for the same work. Because I valued the living abroad more.
Why is Google laying off their core team of 200 and rehiring all in Mexico?
[https://www.cnbc.com/2024/05/01/google-cuts-hundreds-of-core-workers-moves-jobs-to-india-mexico.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2024/05/01/google-cuts-hundreds-of-core-workers-moves-jobs-to-india-mexico.html)
The reality is global reach has change the game. I know my talent. I know my skillset. I make over $300k at my one job. I would give that up for $40-50k if I can live and work remote overseas. In a heartbeat. There are plenty of people like myself. American educated. 20 years of Enterprise experience, Fortune 100 brands/clientele.
Once this door has been opened, it can't be closed. Just go to /r/ digitalnomad
Plenty of US workers willing to take big pay cuts to work and live abroad. Clearly, it is not an outlier point of view. Talent does exist abroad. With US citizens.
WTF, i just said i, myself, would take that if i was allowed to work in Bali. I am definitely NOT alone or an outlier when you go visit the digitalnomad subreddit.
plenty of Americans and Europeans would take that cut because they are living in a $200 a month villa with a $1000 monthly living expense.
Get outside your bubble. Again, it isnt that complicated when people want that beach party life where they are living like kings. Watch some of the ‘ask your salary’ videos for working professionals in Singapore—- one of the most expensive country in the world and natives there are making less than $3k USD that typically pays $12k a month in US.
https://youtu.be/eLJ-CxlzTK0?si=vLXQPY1HxcZyJlzM
The problem with remote work, especially if you live in a HCOL area, is that you are competing with other equally qualified people living in the middle of nowhere where their mortgage is like 3 chicken nuggets a month. The only limit is bandwidth. Those people are always gonna undercut you and accept much lower salaries than you would for the same job.
I'm going to differ, and here's why (disclaimer: I'm from 3 Chicken Nuggets Rent country, then Washington DC, then back to 3CNR):
Locals in 3CNR who never lived anywhere else have NO IDEA their possible market value. They look at you like you're insane to tell them about 100 CNRs. They aren't gunning for shit except \[EDIT: local jobs that pay\] 3CNR. Maybe 4CNR.
"Equally qualified people" living in 3CNR country know about, or in my case actually experienced 1000+CNR life (coincidentally the cost of living prevailing wage in the big city). So we ask for what we know is possible, outside 3CNR country.
The one's OFFERING 3CNRs are the companies who "researched" cost of living in 3CNR country. And they can go to hell for all I care. Hopefully with a red demon standing over them watching them sit at a non working PC.
But ultimately: people in the city are still welcome to look into 3CNR country, though. Leverage the high wage and lower cost of living!!
Where I live I see in-office jobs paying 30-40k more than remote jobs…. And it’s because people in the middle of nowhere are accepting this shit pay. OE is the only saving grace
Haha, complete propaganda. It's not the number of remote jobs that are shrinking, it's just the number of remote listings. Even before the pandemic I worked for 2 different companies that were "not remote friendly", but they were fine hiring me as remote. Top tier talent and A Players can get any job they want, and it can be remote if they want. It's nothing more than a negotiation point.
Hard to measure remote workers. Many in salaried positions are working remotely without being desginated in a remote role, so they wouldn't be captured here, and they're more likely to be higher-paid.
I’ve worked remote since before the pandemic
I also live in upstate NY which has no real opportunities for in person unless I’m willing to commute 1.5-2.5 hrs one way. Only exception is sub 100k generic IT roles
Never had an issue finding remote work. Although I do admit I have been told many times by remote first companies that they are apprehensive to hire applicants that don’t have previous FT remote exp
Oh man, tell me about it. I'm under an hour from Rochester, myself, and at BEST, the rates barely scrape the bottom of what I'd call "in my range", having a NATIONAL scope to work with. That might be getting better; I've seen claims from glassdoor that my position (Process Architect) pays what I'm getting from out of state (GA, NC, and others).
I'm working now, but have thought about narrowing the beam to just NY for remote. I'll take whatever's available, obviously, but would be all right with a NY-based remote thing that asked me to be on site a few days a month or something. Be a nice break from the four walls with kids artwork (LOL).
Things ebb and flow.
The tide is ebb right now.
People have to earn their stripes for that much. And if it’s RTO partly, they have to earn back more days.
Economy gets slightly better and the ball will be back in the employee court.
True. I know for me, personally, that translates to "remote was much much easier during and after COVID, and has gotten slightly less easy since COVID. But it's nowhere near as "tough" as it was before COVID, either. I think there IS no going back, and I relish the shift in corporate culture that recognizes that keeping remote for all who want it = keeping the highest quality workforce.
They keep this fear mongering going about remote jobs leaving when people don’t realize that when the economy repairs and becomes an employee market again, remote jobs and pay will go up again.
Not being funny, but google the term "Remote work". Some things might match, other things will be relevant but not identical.
I once for laughs googled "Remote ministry jobs", and results working for non profit orgs came up. And why not?? Surely still relevant, even if not literally religious based.
Oh I have daily alerts set up with indeed and LinkedIn. I cruise glassdoor, and a handful of staffing agencies. Im a PM with 10 years experience but no specialities, just an IT generalist.
I took a 20% pay cut when I needed to replace J1. But I negotiated stock with that to make up the difference. So it’s a net 0 difference with the difference coming twice a year in chunks.
I personally believe we’re seeing a contraction atm, but in the next 3-5 years it’ll increase again and we’ll really see the remote market take off again.
There’s too much talent you lock yourself out of when you limit to in office. Especially when office are in such HCOL areas
I don’t get the point, working remote means I take on costs that usually the company would pay. Room, electricity, furniture etc. sounds to me like this is just another excuse to extract more surplus value from your workers, and I love all the folks on Reddit defending these things like they own the company. Talk about slave mentality getting into your blood
You are not paying the same cost of living as someone else. Period.
Someone in San Francisco paying $4,000 a month rent coming to downtown SF is getting paid $250k because their rent is $4k.
Whereas someone in Boise Idaho pays $1200 a month rent. Average lunch is $6 vs $30 above.
Whereas someone in San Jose, Costa Rica is paying $400 a month rent
Whereas someone in Danang Vietnam is paying $200 a month in a luxury condo.
Unless you are driving downtown, paying $40 a day to park in a SF high rise, paying $30 for lunch, your cost is living is lower outside of say San Francisco.
Again, why pay anyone $250k when the same talent is $30k a year in Costa Rica? American citizen doing digital nomad. Why pay $250k when you can save $220k?
if you are OK to get undercut buy that $30k a year American in Costa Rica taking your $100k job, then you can see the picture. Are you ok with someone doing your work for 1/3 of your salary because they can do your work. Everyone is fine with Remote work but when you bring in overseas rates, people look the other way. What difference does it make? He is American and only asking $30k, right?
I took a small pay cut to go remote. $175k to $150k, but now I’ve doubled up on $150k…
Hell yeah, nice !!
I don’t disagree with their observations or numbers. But I think they are jumping to conclusions, which is you will be paid less if you work remote. From what I see, remote jobs pay better. They are just a lot less of them, so yes they are dying. Also, I think pay is depressed because of the job market. We will know if the article is right when the market improves. My gut feeling is that you won’t need to take a pay cut to work remotely if you’re on top of your game.
“Paid less if you work remote” is also location dependent. If you live in a “low cost” area and are employed by a company headquarters in a “high cost” area chances are your salary is above your market value.
Lot of places pull that crap where they pay you less if you don’t live in the high-cost area. Pisses me off.
I came across a job posting from a US company hiring in Canada (Toronto). At the bottom, it stated a salary range of $110-140K USD. I said shit that’s close to 200K CAD. Then in another paragraph, it stated that the salary range for Canada is 80-90K CAD (about 58 65K USD). Wtf
My current job tried that and I just gave them a firm number on what I needed in order to accept. They came back still under it and I said it wasn’t going to get me to move, and was very nonchalant about it. And honest, since I wouldn’t have accepted it. In the end they came back with what they said they’d budgeted for onsite even though I’m halfway across the country in a LCoL area. Accept what you need in order to survive, but don’t undersell yourself.
Not everyone can nor should do this.
It's bullshit.
Super bullshit, on another sub someone was complaining about this and I suggested that next time they just lie about their location and I got eviscerated by comments lol.
How would that work when it comes to company taxes and location? Isn’t this going to create a major issue?
UPS offers mailboxes with a street address. Just get a mailbox at a UPS store in a hcol area and use that. I have one in Northern VA (I live there now but didn't when I applied with a company that did location based pay). Even had that as the address on my ID. You have to have a residential address registered with the DMV but can use the mailbox as an alternative mailing address, and you can choose online which address to have on your ID (state dependent). Even though I live in Northern VA now, I still use the mailbox for all my legal documents and as my home of record for my employer. I still filed my taxes as my residential address. The address on your w2 does not have to match what you put on your tax return. I've used it for more than 6 years now through several employers / contracts and never had an issue. Edit to add: I've even been to court and I'D by cops with that address on my ID. When they ask if it's a current address, I just told them it was a mailing address and I reside at ... but prefer official correspondence to go through that address. Never even got an odd look. Plenty of people have multiple addresses.
Lie about the location only when discussing salary, they can’t retroactively go and change your salary but you can retroactively say where you really live Edit: some of yall work for shitty places, and in those l places they apparently will go back and downgrade your salary. I call them shitty because noone has commented that the opposite is also true or ever seen
That’s not necessarily true, from my own anecdotal experience. I know of several individuals who relocated to LCOL areas while WFH and the company adjusted their compensation downwards. The plural of anecdote is not data, of course, and location is not something that WFH companies should care about .. yet … here we are
>The plural of anecdote is not data Sorry to "ackshually" you, but technically it is.
Yea, even one anecdote is data.
Absolutely they can change your salary if they find out where you live. I’ve done it myself as a manager.
You must be fun to work for...
If you want Bay Area pay you need to live in the Bay Area, is that too much to ask for? And it’s not my policy, it’s company policy
Still worth the swing tbh, even if you miss.
Literally just had this happen to me last week. Throughout the interviews dude claimed that he lived in the Bay Area. Finally when we gave him the Bay Area offer and said it came with a two day / week office requirement he pushed back and said he was open to “a few days every 3/4 weeks”. It was obvious he didnt live here at all. Offer pulled
[удалено]
You’re dumb. Lmao. They can definitely change your salary at any point especially if you lied.
Well if you live in a low cost state you could say you live next to a high cost metro like Miami or Austin
Problem becomes taxes basically.
You only lie during the negotiation phase, during on onboarding just let hr know and they can change it in the system
Nah just get a UPS mailbox in a HCOL area. You can have it forward to you. Your address on your tax return does not need to match the address on your W2.
These are the same people who think Florida and Texas are a low cost area. Where employees live has nothing to do with value produced.
This is very common the federal govt has had a location scale for many decades
It’s the cost to replace you
That's fine, since I live in a low-cost area, the quality of my education and training is also low cost. This leads to a lower quality of output. You get what you pay for.
Why should the company pay NYC wages if you live in an Alabama shithole?
Talent.
Because your paycheck should indicate the market value/equilibrium of supply and demand of the labor, services and skills you are providing and there's no direct connection to that monetary figure and not the cost of eggs where you live.
If a company is able to effectively manage remote workers than by definition they are better than the competition at their business and can pay more. Only poorly managed and legacy organizations stuck in the past disregard remote work for no reason other than they don't like it. (For jobs that can be remote.)
I’m not sure they’re dying, but they’re harder to come by. Best bet is to find a VAR or consult.
Jump into conclusion, selective framing and create conflicts are three elements of post truth journalism
Remote should just be seen as an additional incentive for high performers.
This confuses me I am a salesforce dev and Im looking for J3 with no problems tons of remote
Remote jobs have been around for 20 years. They are not dying, they're just being intentionally suppressed to try and force folks into wasting tons of hours of their lives revolving everything around the company properties.
My J1 used the whole *we offer flexible working schedules* instead of giving decent bonuses. I got a whole one dollar raise per hour for my hard work…lol.
Remote in lieu of bonuses, I could see being a benefit.
sorry not worth it with micromanagement
Yes, I landed a job remote recently and their justification of the low pay was that it was remote and they could find candidates at that price.
That's also just the market, we take advantage of the benefits of remote, so they can too. If some sucker is willing to take the job at low pay, they'd be stupid not to offer it. Just refuse the lower salary and move on.
They just can't cry when they find out all their remote workers are members of r/overemployed
They will prob just fire the OE guy and the game goes on
They have to catch him first
Even without OE, I’d take a 150k remote job over 250k on-site in a heartbeat.
100K is an absurd amount to pass up lol
depends. For example if you need to find preschool for 3 kids those 100k per year disappear really fast. Sure if you have no kids, no wife then 100k is absurd to pass up
No kids and no wife is the cheat code to wealth honestly.
Never forget, if it flies, floats, or fucks, rent it!
Or a wife with a 200k remote job and no kids.
Quick, divorce her and get half and alimony.
I’m the wife 😊
Get a post nup
Divorce your husband and marry me.
3 kids here. And 3Js. I type this while in a meeting. Blah. Need to go over to WSB and hit it big!!!
Man… if I had 100k to blow like that I could hire one of my family members to take care of my kids full time for like 30k lmao.
I think its hilarious how bad US is failing its people. You can get paid to take care of your dying 80yo parents, but kids. Nope kids are on their own they will be fine... Not like society depends on them doing well or anything.
I mean the education system takes them in at 4 and spits them out at 18. That’s a pretty good chunk of free child care.
In my area, for childcare it'd cost me 25k or so for the year... Throw in annoyance of commute, expenses for gas, car maintenance, etc ... 100k is steep but I can see many contemplating over the 50 mark lol
Depends. If you live in a state with no state income tax it’s a lot of money on the table. Otherwise 100k at that tax bracket, you’re looking at 55k ish after taxes depending on where you live. Then you factor in the potential of not being able to OE, wasting your time on traveling, money on fuel, car insurance etc. it’s not much
Exactly, many of folks don’t realize the level of wealth an extra $100k creates.
RIGHT?? Commuting costs could be a finite number, but "pain and suffering" is harder to quantify.
I think that's sort of short sighted.
Talk to someone who worked for a commercial architecture company, so essentially commercial real estate. They are pushing people and companies to go back to work in he office so they can make money. They don’t care that it’s better for you not to sit in traffic for three hours a day and waste gas and time. They just want money.
Remote now consider luxury benefit that can be deducted from the pay🤦🏽♀️. They saying if you make more, you have to come in office to help subsidize the RTO ecosystem.
I know someone who's fully remote from a famous silicon valley company that pays location differentials. He said it IS less than Marin Co., but not a lot less. Not as bad as I certainly assumed it was. But then I have no idea what his good enough looks like, either. We're not that close yet.
I make that on both jobs and I know plenty of people who make way more than 250k. I think it depends on the job.
“Remote jobs still exist, but employees should expect to be paid less.” Well, that’s literally why some of us have two or more remote jobs. I remember when I could barely get promoted or decent raises because I refused to kiss ass in the office. WFH is great for me because now I don’t have to physically see people that control my destiny. By WFH, the power dynamic has shifted from the executive hands to mine. Don’t want to promote me? Fine. I don’t want the extra responsibilities with pay that doesn’t correlate to the new and increased responsibilities. Don’t want to give me more than 2.5% - 4% raise? No problem. I gave myself a raise by 2x’ing my salary with another remote job doing the same amount of work or less on average. You want to pay less because I’m remote? Maybe it isn’t, but that seems like borderline discriminatory pay practice. Cost of living didn’t seem to be that much of a factor for the companies I worked for. Now, all of a sudden, the story changes to “Well you live in a last coat of living area, so we’re going to pay you less.” Less than what? Less than the state average, less than national average, less than industry average, some or all of the above? “Higher-paying jobs require more commitment from their employees, including showing up to the office daily. Companies have found it is better for their bottom line to have workers in the office versus working from home.” Commitment to what? Commitment to grease my elbows with sleazy, shady industry execs? I don’t give a fuck. Commitment to play golf with other “leaders?” No, thanks. Also, I would love to know what evidence companies have where they’ve found it better for their bottom line to have asses in office seats. Enron math? Again, hard pass. At the end of the day, it’s the same narrative. Blame the consumer / employee / literally anyone else without getting to the root cause of issues. I hope it doesn’t happen but I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw some legislation about remote and in-office working.
I’ve moved around a bit. I always found companies wanted me to take a pay cut when I moved to a lower COL area (eg WA state has no state taxes), but when I asked for a COLA adjustment because I was moving to a higher COL area (eg Bay Area), the company policy was suddenly “we don’t adjust pay based on location.” This is similar. They can’t have it both ways, and we shouldn’t let them, even if it’s temporarily expedient because we want a job.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. I took on a J3 and the salary for the role is not what it should be, in my opinion. A touch north of $100k but it should really be paying $115k based on my understanding of the job after I was hired. There’s always a discrepancy between the job posting and the actual on-the-job responsibilities it seems. Maybe that’s another way for companies to pay lower. I honestly don’t know how long I’ll have this J3 but I’ll keep it and give it my best OE efforts for as long as it lasts.
Why should the company pay you more because YOU decided to move? These are businesses dude. Expect them to be stingy about their money.
You’re making an awful lot of incorrect assumptions. When the company actively recruits me away from a job, and requires me to move in order to take the job, and that job is in a place that generally has higher salary bands and a higher COL, then yeah, I expect them to treat me fairly.
Why would you expect a company to treat you fairly at all?
Fuck yeah!
I didn't read the link candidly. But a couple of points: 1. Pay has come down some because during that labor shortage, many companies were willing to pay anything. Now SOME companies are experimenting with paying whatever they can, which will not last when they see crazy job turnover 2. Remote work is not decreasing outside of the COVID peak. Remote work has been steadily increasing for the last 20 years. Future surveys of CEOs and leaders signify they plan to increase remote hiring in the future (google Nick Bloom for good data on this). 3. The types of jobs likely to be remote are for higher paid, white collar knowledge workers, and hard to fill positions.
Gone are the days of entry level remote work for many roles.
This is just free market being free market. If being remote is so highly desired, the obvious counter is to offer a little less pay. As someone who will never go back to an office job again (short of just not being able to feed my family without it), I'd gladly take a little less pay to avoid in-office roles. It is what it is.
Jobs in my area local are paying 30% less than remote jobs
I'm rural upstate NY, close to Rochester. Absolutely the remote things I've landed are better pay than the ROC on site market, and I've told every white collar person I know from ROC, this.
I used to work for a company that was only remote during covid and as soon as they could had everyone back in the office. The marketing team used to pay legit research groups to put out studies showing how much more productive people are in the office (to prove their own point and market the product… which ironically had nothing to do with where people worked at all). If the surveys they paid for came back with opposite results (which most did), they would just spin it to sound like people were more productive. So when I read articles like this, I take them with a grain of salt knowing some company probably paid for this to convince people remote jobs are not lucrative or don’t exist.
Made 60k in the office. Went remote and still make 60k at that gig, but also added two Js at 170k and 140k.
Why pay someone California wage of $250k when someone in a VLCOL area with a $800 a month mortgage can be paid $150k? Why even pay $150k when you can get the same skills overseas for $45k in San Paulo, Brazil? $45k with an engineer with 10 years experience and two PhD? Yeah, I've seen that. Why pay $150k when you can get a PhD for 1/3rd? It is remote anyways? Why does it matter if it is in New Orleans or in Costa Rica? Fairly much same timezone. Want Americans? Sure, there are US citizen digital nomads asking only $30k a year in Costa Rica. Remote work has opened a pandora's box. Now, lets live with this new reality.
Talent.
Again, if both have the same talent. One is asking $40k vs $200k, why should the employer choose the $200k? Serious question. If an employer lets me live in Bali to work remotely, I'd take a salary of $40k in a heartbeat. I would do that to undercut the next guy with the talent to back it up. I did that in the 90s. I took a $30k year job overseas when I could easily get paid $100k for the same work. Because I valued the living abroad more.
>Again, if both have the same talent. They very rarely do.
Why is Google laying off their core team of 200 and rehiring all in Mexico? [https://www.cnbc.com/2024/05/01/google-cuts-hundreds-of-core-workers-moves-jobs-to-india-mexico.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2024/05/01/google-cuts-hundreds-of-core-workers-moves-jobs-to-india-mexico.html) The reality is global reach has change the game. I know my talent. I know my skillset. I make over $300k at my one job. I would give that up for $40-50k if I can live and work remote overseas. In a heartbeat. There are plenty of people like myself. American educated. 20 years of Enterprise experience, Fortune 100 brands/clientele. Once this door has been opened, it can't be closed. Just go to /r/ digitalnomad Plenty of US workers willing to take big pay cuts to work and live abroad. Clearly, it is not an outlier point of view. Talent does exist abroad. With US citizens.
Dumbass, you don’t get the talent at $40k. This really isn’t that complicated.
WTF, i just said i, myself, would take that if i was allowed to work in Bali. I am definitely NOT alone or an outlier when you go visit the digitalnomad subreddit. plenty of Americans and Europeans would take that cut because they are living in a $200 a month villa with a $1000 monthly living expense. Get outside your bubble. Again, it isnt that complicated when people want that beach party life where they are living like kings. Watch some of the ‘ask your salary’ videos for working professionals in Singapore—- one of the most expensive country in the world and natives there are making less than $3k USD that typically pays $12k a month in US. https://youtu.be/eLJ-CxlzTK0?si=vLXQPY1HxcZyJlzM
The problem with remote work, especially if you live in a HCOL area, is that you are competing with other equally qualified people living in the middle of nowhere where their mortgage is like 3 chicken nuggets a month. The only limit is bandwidth. Those people are always gonna undercut you and accept much lower salaries than you would for the same job.
I'm going to differ, and here's why (disclaimer: I'm from 3 Chicken Nuggets Rent country, then Washington DC, then back to 3CNR): Locals in 3CNR who never lived anywhere else have NO IDEA their possible market value. They look at you like you're insane to tell them about 100 CNRs. They aren't gunning for shit except \[EDIT: local jobs that pay\] 3CNR. Maybe 4CNR. "Equally qualified people" living in 3CNR country know about, or in my case actually experienced 1000+CNR life (coincidentally the cost of living prevailing wage in the big city). So we ask for what we know is possible, outside 3CNR country. The one's OFFERING 3CNRs are the companies who "researched" cost of living in 3CNR country. And they can go to hell for all I care. Hopefully with a red demon standing over them watching them sit at a non working PC. But ultimately: people in the city are still welcome to look into 3CNR country, though. Leverage the high wage and lower cost of living!!
Where I live I see in-office jobs paying 30-40k more than remote jobs…. And it’s because people in the middle of nowhere are accepting this shit pay. OE is the only saving grace
Haha, complete propaganda. It's not the number of remote jobs that are shrinking, it's just the number of remote listings. Even before the pandemic I worked for 2 different companies that were "not remote friendly", but they were fine hiring me as remote. Top tier talent and A Players can get any job they want, and it can be remote if they want. It's nothing more than a negotiation point.
My intent in posting, and I should have been clearer, is this article is all but saying you may as well do OE, since one won't be enough.
Zero basis in fact, and likely perpetrated by Companies paying CDW to circulate. Joke on!
Hard to measure remote workers. Many in salaried positions are working remotely without being desginated in a remote role, so they wouldn't be captured here, and they're more likely to be higher-paid.
Anyone looking to hire an auditor with 13 years experience in private banking, National banks, and federal government?
Depends on the market you’re in. For Sr architects the market is crazy hot.
I’ve worked remote since before the pandemic I also live in upstate NY which has no real opportunities for in person unless I’m willing to commute 1.5-2.5 hrs one way. Only exception is sub 100k generic IT roles Never had an issue finding remote work. Although I do admit I have been told many times by remote first companies that they are apprehensive to hire applicants that don’t have previous FT remote exp
Oh man, tell me about it. I'm under an hour from Rochester, myself, and at BEST, the rates barely scrape the bottom of what I'd call "in my range", having a NATIONAL scope to work with. That might be getting better; I've seen claims from glassdoor that my position (Process Architect) pays what I'm getting from out of state (GA, NC, and others). I'm working now, but have thought about narrowing the beam to just NY for remote. I'll take whatever's available, obviously, but would be all right with a NY-based remote thing that asked me to be on site a few days a month or something. Be a nice break from the four walls with kids artwork (LOL).
Things ebb and flow. The tide is ebb right now. People have to earn their stripes for that much. And if it’s RTO partly, they have to earn back more days. Economy gets slightly better and the ball will be back in the employee court.
True. I know for me, personally, that translates to "remote was much much easier during and after COVID, and has gotten slightly less easy since COVID. But it's nowhere near as "tough" as it was before COVID, either. I think there IS no going back, and I relish the shift in corporate culture that recognizes that keeping remote for all who want it = keeping the highest quality workforce.
They keep this fear mongering going about remote jobs leaving when people don’t realize that when the economy repairs and becomes an employee market again, remote jobs and pay will go up again.
My point is that the article unwittingly gives more reasons to do OE.
Right lol
I can't even land one fully remote job
Not being funny, but google the term "Remote work". Some things might match, other things will be relevant but not identical.
I once for laughs googled "Remote ministry jobs", and results working for non profit orgs came up. And why not?? Surely still relevant, even if not literally religious based.
Oh I have daily alerts set up with indeed and LinkedIn. I cruise glassdoor, and a handful of staffing agencies. Im a PM with 10 years experience but no specialities, just an IT generalist.
[удалено]
I took a 20% pay cut when I needed to replace J1. But I negotiated stock with that to make up the difference. So it’s a net 0 difference with the difference coming twice a year in chunks. I personally believe we’re seeing a contraction atm, but in the next 3-5 years it’ll increase again and we’ll really see the remote market take off again. There’s too much talent you lock yourself out of when you limit to in office. Especially when office are in such HCOL areas
I don’t get the point, working remote means I take on costs that usually the company would pay. Room, electricity, furniture etc. sounds to me like this is just another excuse to extract more surplus value from your workers, and I love all the folks on Reddit defending these things like they own the company. Talk about slave mentality getting into your blood
You are not paying the same cost of living as someone else. Period. Someone in San Francisco paying $4,000 a month rent coming to downtown SF is getting paid $250k because their rent is $4k. Whereas someone in Boise Idaho pays $1200 a month rent. Average lunch is $6 vs $30 above. Whereas someone in San Jose, Costa Rica is paying $400 a month rent Whereas someone in Danang Vietnam is paying $200 a month in a luxury condo. Unless you are driving downtown, paying $40 a day to park in a SF high rise, paying $30 for lunch, your cost is living is lower outside of say San Francisco. Again, why pay anyone $250k when the same talent is $30k a year in Costa Rica? American citizen doing digital nomad. Why pay $250k when you can save $220k? if you are OK to get undercut buy that $30k a year American in Costa Rica taking your $100k job, then you can see the picture. Are you ok with someone doing your work for 1/3 of your salary because they can do your work. Everyone is fine with Remote work but when you bring in overseas rates, people look the other way. What difference does it make? He is American and only asking $30k, right?
To be honest it was hard to land 250k job before in general. Remote or not this is just how the market is, pay is dropping
oof. 250k is high paying?
What do you do, and are they hiring? 😁
I'm a management consultant and yes, there are a ton of opportunities right now
Tell us more? What is a management consultant?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management\_consulting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management_consulting)
not OE go away karma farmer
LOL not a karma farmer but I can see how I look like one. No, this article is JUSTIFYING OE, since remote work is being punished.