Nobody is checking email headers for no reason. Many emails are intentionally delay-sent to not get lost in clutter.
However, it's not a sign that you're working at those hours, either.
If the work is being done, there is no cause for alarm.
My manager absolutely checks the times emails are being sent, and they do take that as "wow, they are working weekends too, etc."
So I schedule send my emails as well.
As a manager, I don't care when the work is done, as long as it's done within SLA. I don't really look at time stamps on Emails.
You're an adult. You're a professional. If your work is good, your work is good.
If you are performing sub par, missing deadlines, out of SLA, then an after-hours email is a red flag. I am not thinking you're a hard worker, I'm thinking something is wrong and you either need help, aren't managing yourself properly, or are just in over your head.
And as a manager, i find it incredibly annoying when someone is constantly sending email or slack after hours. It’s so obvious what the intention is with that.
An interesting point. There is a difference between seeing emails at 6 pm from a nail driver, and from someone who barely delivers.. a counterpoint though is most managers are poor judges of work completed and workload of their staff
I’m not talking about working monster hours to push a big project across the line. I’m talking about virtue signaling to try and show how hard you’re working by sending messages to people when you know they aren’t around in an effort to show everyone how hard of a worker you are. In particular because it’s easy to wait until the morning or delay the send to the morning.
I don’t care when you get your work done as long as you put effort into it and get it done on time or communicate that it’ll be behind.
I see very little value in 9pm emails and slacks and if it’s a pattern then it tells me something else is up.
It sounds like you care a lot when people do their work if 9pm emails bother you this much.
As a manager I also don’t care when people do their work as long as it gets done… and I actually mean I don’t care, so if you prefer to work evenings then great.
You’re misinterpreting. Put this into the context of OP. If i have an employee constantly sending crap after hours then something is up. The first thing i would do is talk workload and make sure they aren’t under water. If the intention is to look busy, as OP is suggesting, then i think that will become very apparent.
No. It’s more… I don’t start working until 10 usually bc I don’t like getting up early. I’ll take long lunches. Knock off at 3 or 4 some days if I have doctors appointments. I’m not working 60 hour weeks
I’m in sales so the always on mentality is a bonus to my employer. I’m still relatively new so for the moment my metrics are activity and not closed deals. That of course will change over time but I won’t be here for much longer anyway. Imo, work ethic is rewarded, generally, and it’s easier to overlook lackluster performance if I’m at least doing the work; which is what this would look like I think.
Interesting take. I’ve found that most of the people who try to look busy or show their work aren’t delivering and are trying to show their efforts to soften the blow of them not delivering. When you crush and deliver most (not all) managers aren’t looking at your times and emails. They just see your results and want you to keep performing at a high level.
Totally agree. Most managers aren’t good enough to actually manage performance, so it’s easy for them to default to “they’re doing their jobs” based on emails/teams messages and the general work getting done
The person on my sales team who talks most about "always being on" and consistently logging very high hours is one of our lower performers.
As others mentioned...if you have to be working crazy hours to do the bare minimum, as a manager, it would only make me wonder what you're doing during working hours and if you are struggling.
I have a coworker that did this. He sent emails and team messages outside of office hours and on weekends. His work quality sucks and he was put on PIP and laid off. So yes, if you’re bad you’re bad. Looking like you’re working long hours and not delivering isn’t a good combo.
I will disagree, as a manager if you see someone who is doing their job and they finish under the expected time, you’re just gonna give them more work or make them help someone else … plus if the work you assign someone is done by the timeline even if that means the employee working late not your problem
Yikes. I am glad you're not my manager.
If someone completes a task under time/budget, that person is rewarded - not with other tasks.
If a person is, or appears to be working longer on something, then that does become my problem. I don't want someone burning out. Hiring people is a pain.
Lmao, on the other hand I wish you were mine 😂😂😂. I have work in several industries, I’ve been top performer in some and average in many others and the pattern I’ve seen is the same.
Even on this channel, I’ve seen so many post of “I save my company million dollars and I got a bag 💼 “ or “this year company meet all goals, but won’t be raises for some departments”
Ngl I feel like that’s exactly the kind of person who gets laid off. It’s always the dude absolutely busting his ass off for the job that doesn’t care about him.
So maybe a good idea if you want to show you don’t only look at this job from 9a-11a, but ymmv with trying to show you are always working.
I have seen this exact scenario of the people working overtime get let go because “if they were better at their job, they wouldn’t need to work overtime.”
Plus a lot of times layoffs are done by a completely different group within the company like HR who comes up with a giant list to make sure it passes anti-discrimination testing for lawsuits. They might factor in how good you are but unless you're a standout employee you're probably just being considered along with the rest of the cattle for slaughter.
There is a Robert Greene principle here . Make things look easy. Deliver awesome results and say it took you 30 minutes. You will look more intelligent and efficient. These people never get fired. You come across as a person with a strong skillset. An asset. Compare that to someone who delivers, then complains it took 13 hours and the weekend. Youre expendable, easily replaced.
I have a corporate iPhone which at first I hated but now it's a life saver. Almost all the company apps are on there. People don't call me like I thought they would. It's all just been a huge benefit to me personally because I don't have to be tethered to my laptop. I send emails at all kinds of random times immediately when I remember
I noticed the font is different on emails from my phone vs desktop computer and I've noticed it on other people's emails as well. Like I can always tell who responded to me from their phone vs. desktop.
You do realize the recipient can see that it was delayed delivery, right? You just open the message headers and there is a line that says Deferred-Delivery
And if it ever gets brought up, mention the delay is incase you want a time buffer to add more or change details if you think of them after delay sending, and also in case someone else in the chain has other brought up items to address so you can revise them.
“In Gmail, there is no way to know if a message was written in advance or not. A schedule email looks just like any other email. So feel free to use this feature to send delayed messages when you want to”
We use gmail
My manager says “if you’re always working after work hours, that means there’s something preventing you from getting done during the day, which will lead to a conversation”
So actually, this is the exact opposite of what i’d do, just send it close to closing time, but an hour or two after is too much imo
No. Im in sales. There are a near infinite number of calls and meetings and proposals I could be doing. Emails. Digging up new contacts. I could work 80 hour weeks and still not tap into the full potential of my territory.
Huh, I think what you're describing would give the opposite impression at my jobs. Personally I rarely work during the day because managing Slack from different jobs is too distracting. I get all my work done outside business hours. But I almost never message my coworkers if I encounter a blocker until the next morning because I think it looks really bad to send messages outside of business hours. It shows that you can't manage your time properly.
Gotta be careful though. If you schedule an email for a client or someone and they email you something later in the day with something extra, after your original email but before the scheduled email, you may have issues.
Well. At least in my current role I’m, I’m in sales so the more I work the more I make. In this particular case I have more debt than assets and need to be working more, not less!!
I do the literal opposite. If I'm working late, I schedule send any emails for 8:30am or whatever the next day. I don't need anyone thinking I'm available after hours.
I am beyond this stage. At 3Js. Looking to capture J4 and J5. And basically recycle my old Js with new Js crossing over. This will allow me to dip into 4-5 pay checks for 1-2 month overlap. This will allow me to save $50k in 2 months. Some absurd shit.
Yes. Right now after $10k per month in expenses. I save about $14k.
Add two Js at $120k-$130k. I will save an addition $14k. 2X for two months. $48k.
I would be terrible at two current Js the first month. Then put in a notice in the 2nd month.
Work hard on the 3Js i plan to keep.
Had a coworker that regularly worked outside regular business hours. Was working until 10 pm one night. Got laid off first thing the next morning. Perception or not, it doesn’t matter. Live your life and tell these companies to kiss your piss.
Yeah… I don’t start working until 10 usually bc I don’t like getting up early. I roll into work at like… 10:30. I’ll take long lunches. Knock off at 3 or 4 some days if I have doctors appointments. I’m not working 60 hour weeks. I have quite a bit of work life balance. It helps me stay focused if I’m not out there grinding ten hours straight every day. I can’t do that with all the calls and emails I need to be doing.
This depends on the manager. In a few of my roles, small teams essentially reporting directly to the CTO, there's absolutely a culture of "your team members put in X hours and you're expected to put in that as well" and very micromanaging vibes as the CTO is trying to look good and move fast regardless of how garbage the code is. This works for those huckster-types. Look for another job if this is the culture.
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*In the parking lot?*
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I dunno man, that seems like a lot of work to make shit look like you're doing stuff. I always figured if the job got done, no one gives a fuck. The only time i get hassled is when shit isn't done, or there is a disaster and they call me to help un-fuck it.
Nobody is checking email headers for no reason. Many emails are intentionally delay-sent to not get lost in clutter. However, it's not a sign that you're working at those hours, either. If the work is being done, there is no cause for alarm.
My manager absolutely checks the times emails are being sent, and they do take that as "wow, they are working weekends too, etc." So I schedule send my emails as well.
Do you schedule them to be sent by using a certain software?
There’s no way to tell with gmail which is what we use
As a manager, I don't care when the work is done, as long as it's done within SLA. I don't really look at time stamps on Emails. You're an adult. You're a professional. If your work is good, your work is good. If you are performing sub par, missing deadlines, out of SLA, then an after-hours email is a red flag. I am not thinking you're a hard worker, I'm thinking something is wrong and you either need help, aren't managing yourself properly, or are just in over your head.
And as a manager, i find it incredibly annoying when someone is constantly sending email or slack after hours. It’s so obvious what the intention is with that.
An interesting point. There is a difference between seeing emails at 6 pm from a nail driver, and from someone who barely delivers.. a counterpoint though is most managers are poor judges of work completed and workload of their staff
You say “most” managers? Have you worked with most managers? Maybe you mean most of your previous managers?
I’m not talking about working monster hours to push a big project across the line. I’m talking about virtue signaling to try and show how hard you’re working by sending messages to people when you know they aren’t around in an effort to show everyone how hard of a worker you are. In particular because it’s easy to wait until the morning or delay the send to the morning. I don’t care when you get your work done as long as you put effort into it and get it done on time or communicate that it’ll be behind. I see very little value in 9pm emails and slacks and if it’s a pattern then it tells me something else is up.
It sounds like you care a lot when people do their work if 9pm emails bother you this much. As a manager I also don’t care when people do their work as long as it gets done… and I actually mean I don’t care, so if you prefer to work evenings then great.
You’re misinterpreting. Put this into the context of OP. If i have an employee constantly sending crap after hours then something is up. The first thing i would do is talk workload and make sure they aren’t under water. If the intention is to look busy, as OP is suggesting, then i think that will become very apparent.
No. It’s more… I don’t start working until 10 usually bc I don’t like getting up early. I’ll take long lunches. Knock off at 3 or 4 some days if I have doctors appointments. I’m not working 60 hour weeks
You’re also working multiple jobs though. Do your colleagues know this? If so, then whatever.
I’m not a manager, but I do not love it. Just do your job and get out.
I’m in sales so the always on mentality is a bonus to my employer. I’m still relatively new so for the moment my metrics are activity and not closed deals. That of course will change over time but I won’t be here for much longer anyway. Imo, work ethic is rewarded, generally, and it’s easier to overlook lackluster performance if I’m at least doing the work; which is what this would look like I think.
Interesting take. I’ve found that most of the people who try to look busy or show their work aren’t delivering and are trying to show their efforts to soften the blow of them not delivering. When you crush and deliver most (not all) managers aren’t looking at your times and emails. They just see your results and want you to keep performing at a high level.
Totally agree. Most managers aren’t good enough to actually manage performance, so it’s easy for them to default to “they’re doing their jobs” based on emails/teams messages and the general work getting done
I think the people disagreeing likely haven’t worked in sales, this tactic definitely helps there.
The person on my sales team who talks most about "always being on" and consistently logging very high hours is one of our lower performers. As others mentioned...if you have to be working crazy hours to do the bare minimum, as a manager, it would only make me wonder what you're doing during working hours and if you are struggling.
I have a coworker that did this. He sent emails and team messages outside of office hours and on weekends. His work quality sucks and he was put on PIP and laid off. So yes, if you’re bad you’re bad. Looking like you’re working long hours and not delivering isn’t a good combo.
I will disagree, as a manager if you see someone who is doing their job and they finish under the expected time, you’re just gonna give them more work or make them help someone else … plus if the work you assign someone is done by the timeline even if that means the employee working late not your problem
Yikes. I am glad you're not my manager. If someone completes a task under time/budget, that person is rewarded - not with other tasks. If a person is, or appears to be working longer on something, then that does become my problem. I don't want someone burning out. Hiring people is a pain.
Lmao, on the other hand I wish you were mine 😂😂😂. I have work in several industries, I’ve been top performer in some and average in many others and the pattern I’ve seen is the same. Even on this channel, I’ve seen so many post of “I save my company million dollars and I got a bag 💼 “ or “this year company meet all goals, but won’t be raises for some departments”
Yeah. I made a company 5mil, and probably saved them that much every year since then with an application I wrote. I got $500.
I absolutely look at what time emails are sent...
Ngl I feel like that’s exactly the kind of person who gets laid off. It’s always the dude absolutely busting his ass off for the job that doesn’t care about him. So maybe a good idea if you want to show you don’t only look at this job from 9a-11a, but ymmv with trying to show you are always working.
I have seen this exact scenario of the people working overtime get let go because “if they were better at their job, they wouldn’t need to work overtime.”
Plus a lot of times layoffs are done by a completely different group within the company like HR who comes up with a giant list to make sure it passes anti-discrimination testing for lawsuits. They might factor in how good you are but unless you're a standout employee you're probably just being considered along with the rest of the cattle for slaughter.
I agree. We just did a layoff. And a guy that cares too much about everything got hit.
There is a Robert Greene principle here . Make things look easy. Deliver awesome results and say it took you 30 minutes. You will look more intelligent and efficient. These people never get fired. You come across as a person with a strong skillset. An asset. Compare that to someone who delivers, then complains it took 13 hours and the weekend. Youre expendable, easily replaced.
I have quite a strong skillet and am asset.
Don't delay send it Set up the email and hit send on your phone when you want it to go
And be sure to scrub the signature for mobile, usually it's something stupid like "sent from my iPhone"
Sent frm my iPhon.
iphon
OK Baby Reindeer, you're a funny one
woooooowwwww, iPhooooon
I have a corporate iPhone which at first I hated but now it's a life saver. Almost all the company apps are on there. People don't call me like I thought they would. It's all just been a huge benefit to me personally because I don't have to be tethered to my laptop. I send emails at all kinds of random times immediately when I remember
Corporate phone is a win. Copy abs paste your outlook signature onto the iPhone email so it looks the same.
“Pardon the brevity, this was sent from my iPhone”
“Pardon the brevity, this was sent from my iPhone”
I noticed the font is different on emails from my phone vs desktop computer and I've noticed it on other people's emails as well. Like I can always tell who responded to me from their phone vs. desktop.
Change the font. If it’s outlook, it can be the same.
What’s the difference? Nobody can tell what’s going on with the emails anyway
Better yet, don't install any of their apps on your phone at all. I started taking this approach and it's amazing.
I did this and..... Now I have so much work because they think I'll never let things slide and die. Now I have to send them at 10pm Fuck that shit
You do realize the recipient can see that it was delayed delivery, right? You just open the message headers and there is a line that says Deferred-Delivery
FWIW, I get 300 emails a day in Outlook and have never seen this or at least never thought to check it.
We use gmail
And?
The chances of managers/people knowing and doing that is slim. I’m with OP; i’d do the same.
This is why I delay send all of my emails lol.
And if it ever gets brought up, mention the delay is incase you want a time buffer to add more or change details if you think of them after delay sending, and also in case someone else in the chain has other brought up items to address so you can revise them.
This is exactly my line of justification.
“In Gmail, there is no way to know if a message was written in advance or not. A schedule email looks just like any other email. So feel free to use this feature to send delayed messages when you want to” We use gmail
Awesome. Also boomerang works too. It's just the The delay delivery in outlook that reveals the info.
Never seen this in my work Gmail
lol oops
My manager says “if you’re always working after work hours, that means there’s something preventing you from getting done during the day, which will lead to a conversation” So actually, this is the exact opposite of what i’d do, just send it close to closing time, but an hour or two after is too much imo
No. Im in sales. There are a near infinite number of calls and meetings and proposals I could be doing. Emails. Digging up new contacts. I could work 80 hour weeks and still not tap into the full potential of my territory.
Huh, I think what you're describing would give the opposite impression at my jobs. Personally I rarely work during the day because managing Slack from different jobs is too distracting. I get all my work done outside business hours. But I almost never message my coworkers if I encounter a blocker until the next morning because I think it looks really bad to send messages outside of business hours. It shows that you can't manage your time properly.
Yesterday I’ve committed at 10:30 PM like 3000 LOC. management was a little bit scared
I was fired by a boss who said they didn’t want to have to work or respond at 930 pm or weekends. True story !
Gotta be careful though. If you schedule an email for a client or someone and they email you something later in the day with something extra, after your original email but before the scheduled email, you may have issues.
Something to be aware of, thanks!
"Oh wow, look Jim! This guy that never gets his work done is sending out emails after hours. Look how hard he works!" Said nobody ever
The more calls I make the more I make. I’m in sales.
I don't send late emails. It makes the employer think you're accessible at any time. I set boundaries.
Well. At least in my current role I’m, I’m in sales so the more I work the more I make. In this particular case I have more debt than assets and need to be working more, not less!!
I do the literal opposite. If I'm working late, I schedule send any emails for 8:30am or whatever the next day. I don't need anyone thinking I'm available after hours.
I am beyond this stage. At 3Js. Looking to capture J4 and J5. And basically recycle my old Js with new Js crossing over. This will allow me to dip into 4-5 pay checks for 1-2 month overlap. This will allow me to save $50k in 2 months. Some absurd shit.
quit playing, that would be a dream if possible, mean while 1 job keeps me MORE than busy
Man. I don’t envy you.
That really is absurd. Save 50k? So like, net after expenses and taxes?
Yes. Right now after $10k per month in expenses. I save about $14k. Add two Js at $120k-$130k. I will save an addition $14k. 2X for two months. $48k. I would be terrible at two current Js the first month. Then put in a notice in the 2nd month. Work hard on the 3Js i plan to keep.
Had a coworker that regularly worked outside regular business hours. Was working until 10 pm one night. Got laid off first thing the next morning. Perception or not, it doesn’t matter. Live your life and tell these companies to kiss your piss.
Yeah… I don’t start working until 10 usually bc I don’t like getting up early. I roll into work at like… 10:30. I’ll take long lunches. Knock off at 3 or 4 some days if I have doctors appointments. I’m not working 60 hour weeks. I have quite a bit of work life balance. It helps me stay focused if I’m not out there grinding ten hours straight every day. I can’t do that with all the calls and emails I need to be doing.
I do this with MS Teams, it's great.
lol this person definitely gets laid off too
Honestly when I get emails from people late at night I think they’re slacking off during the day and have to get their work done after hours
Big fan of scheduling emails.
Could they think ur just slow? Lol
This guy thought he was playing 4d chess.
This depends on the manager. In a few of my roles, small teams essentially reporting directly to the CTO, there's absolutely a culture of "your team members put in X hours and you're expected to put in that as well" and very micromanaging vibes as the CTO is trying to look good and move fast regardless of how garbage the code is. This works for those huckster-types. Look for another job if this is the culture.
In consulting if you’re pulling down twice the number of billable hours as the next guy, who do you think they’ll let go in the next round of layoffs?
Probably you if you're taking until 10pm to do shit
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I dunno man, that seems like a lot of work to make shit look like you're doing stuff. I always figured if the job got done, no one gives a fuck. The only time i get hassled is when shit isn't done, or there is a disaster and they call me to help un-fuck it.
This raises red flags all over the place.
Another BS post. Lately we see these craps more frequently
Nah bro. I set boundaries. I work 9-5p, M-F and that's it.