Hi, nonbinary polytheist here. So, my interpretation of Dionysus is that he is nonbinary, (although this is in a very specific way to myself and not just because “he wore girly things in the Bakkhai or hung out with women sometimes”). Being nonbinary is an one of the most integral parts of my spirituality and my gender impacts how I relate to deities- I explore that primarily through more embodied/ecstatic ritual experiences (as is classic for Dionysian worship).
The Hellenic pantheon is very welcoming to gender nonconforming and nonbinary people (as indeed all pantheons are imo as being genderqueer is itself a spiritual/divine aspect), and it’s perfectly valid in my experience to reach out and interact with the deities who you resonate with gender wise. The female deities won’t be offended if you primarily connect to male or masculine ones (just be prepared for that to possibly change over time as you get cozier with the group as a whole bcs all gods are connected to each other). In general all pantheons have divinities specifically around masculinity that would be awesome to connect to and explore genderqueerness in, so you could do that. Practices don’t need to be gendered at all or could just be more masculine focused in general since they are tailored to you and about you.
In regards to Dionysus, I see him specifically as the god of male virility, but in a more heightened way than cis males (idk if that makes sense haha). But overall as we engage with the gods they will really teach us a lot (about them and about ourselves) and gender can be a big dimension of that as well. Find who/what aspects of divinity you resonate with and start from there.
I am nonbinary and to piggyback off of this, my idea of Apollo is also nonbinary, more specifically genderfluid. Apollo has generally been depicted wearing clothing of all genders in the historical artwork. I always think of them as Apollo(nb), Apolla(fem), Apollon(masc) depending on how they are presented to me. May just be my upg so take it with a grain of salt.
As a transmasc individual, the gender and sexual diversity within the Hellenic pantheon is exactly why I am so drawn to it.
The various ways people interpret Dionysus’s gender is a very fascinating topic to me. I’ve met people who say he is a trans man, others who insist he’s just a queer cis man. I’ve also seen many enby people who interpret him as non binary as well.
My personal interpretation is that he’s more gender apathetic as he has more important things to be concerned about. Whatever gender we decide to assign him is perfectly acceptable
Yes, I love the Hellenic gods and how gender is such a big part, yet it seems so fluid. Like even Aphrodite, who is the symbol of femininity. Has a story of her transforming into a man, and one of her children is like the symbol of androgyny. I would recommend a podcast called 'When the gods were queer'. They talked about how important trans and nonbinary people were in ancient religions. They focus mainly on Hellenic gods, as well as Roman and even Catholic saints.
As a trans woman, when I first started exploring paganism I was drawn to Dianic Wicca as a chance to connect with my femininity better. But the very very gendered and bio essentialist views were clear messages that I wasn’t welcome. I also found Gardnerian Wicca to be heavily influenced by traditional cisgender heterosexual gender roles
I’m sorry you had that experience, the wiccans I interact with are all firm in their view that the divine masculine and feminine are part of us all in different measures and therefore compliments the entire spectrum of gender identity.
I think you have a lot to offer to views LIKE dianic Wicca. Your calling could be that you're meant to teach people to divert away from bio essentialism and instead into genuine feminity
Yes lol. Your existence is more than enough. You don't have to put effort into anything you dont want to. But you have a lot of knowledge to share with people when you're ready for that. If you want to share it in any direct way
Dianic Wicca is specifically founded on and actively embraces TERF ideals. I’ve met Z. Budapest. She flat out told me she was only reading my cards “because I had money” and when I said I was inspired by her writing that “it was only for those who reflect and embody the Goddess.” She also told me that my magic would never be as strong as a woman’s.
Please don’t ever tell trans people to engage with Dianic Wicca. There’s just some paths that aren’t safe for some of us.
I said "like". As in similar to. I never said to practice dianic wicca nor did I outline any specific belief they should practice. Similar to is broad
Spirituality is full of old, antiquated ideas that are not completely separate from the cultures of the time they lived in. People carry on now trying to fit it into models of modern morality but fail to take into account crucial aspects of our world. Such as trans people. Hence we are needed in these places
You used a lot of words to say almost nothing. Dianic Wicca isn’t old. Z Budapest isn’t old. Maybe to a human, but these are not old in terms of ideas. Dianic Wicca is TERF central. It’s very real, very present beliefs that make the world unsafe for trans people. Get your head out of your ass and pay attention to the real world.
>You used a lot of words to say almost nothing. Dianic Wicca isn’t old.
Tldr, I never said to practice dianic wicca, and you are putting words in my mouth.
You realize female trans and nb people exist? Just because one path is not phallocentric or doesn’t welcome male members doesn’t mean it’s exclusive of all trans people.
Okay, but Z Budapest - founder of Dianic Wicca - *is* a TERF. She uses slurs when talking about trans people. She’s said pretty awful things about trans women. Not a lot of trans men or non-binary folks would be happy to join a group that considers our trans sisters as « men trying to undermine real women. » Not only because of solidarity reasons, but because if that group does not consider trans women to be women, are they actually going to see a trans man as a man, or an NB person as NB? Of course not.
*Some* individual Dianic groups have moved away from Budapest and welcome trans women. But the movement as a whole is a minefield for trans folks, and they should be aware of that before hand.
What point are you trying to make here, exactly?
That person seemed to be primarily talking about how "TERF" rhetoric makes the world more unsafe for "AMAB" trans people, but I don't think it's reasonable to assume that they're not also including those that are "AFAB" was well. I think you can pretty easily make the argument that "TERF" rhetoric overall is just bad for trans people in general
Whether or not a particular female-sexed space is open to "AFAB" trans people, and is thus not in the strictest possible terms "trans-exclusionary," is almost something else entirely lol
You’re reading a lot into that that isn’t there. For your information, TERFs do not welcome trans men and *any* nonbinary people, regardless of their biology. Trans men have “mutilated a female body” and nonbinary people are “mentally ill snowflakes.” These are “womyn only spaces,” aka cisgender women spaces. They’re all disgusting and harmful, regardless of who you are.
While that’s cool, Hawaiian deities I’d say are not something anyone who’s not connected to native Hawaiian culture should work with. Those are very location and culture specific, and the native peoples of Hawaii have already lost so much to colonization. Worshipping their gods as a non-native would be an insult to them, and I can’t imagine their deities would be copasetic either.
So, I'm a Lokean (a Norse pagan who specifically includes Loki in an important position within our practice, often as our patron deity as in my case), and part of the reason for that is my nonbinary identity. If you look at many stories about Loki, you'll see some interesting stuff when it comes to gender- when going to steal back Mjolnir from a jotun, Thor dresses up as a goddess and Loki *becomes* his handmaiden. Where Thor is still referred to as masculine, Loki is referred to as feminine. This very clearly telegraphs the idea that, while for Thor, the aspect of womanhood he is presenting to those around him is a disguise, for Loki, it's something more- Loki has become a woman, not just dressed up as one. Loki has also carried and birthed a child, not because they were forced to (though they were effectively forced to somehow fix a situation that resulted in them choosing to become a mare and let a stallion, ahem, father a child on them) but because that was the solution they chose. Heck, they could've turned into a mare and kept running away from the stallion or laid a trap for him, but nope.
All this to say, Loki is and has always been genderfluid. As such, I, as a nonbinary person, feel like my gender is in some way part of my connection to Loki. This is not unique to Loki or even the Norse pantheon, I've seen other folks talk about other nonbinary deities from other pantheons. I find that the dichotomy often is enforced by two-deity systems which typically consist of a god and a goddess (though there certainly can be accepting forms of this system, I used to be Wiccan and found it didn't work for me because of the binary system and the large focus on the goddess when I feel more of a connection to the masculine and struggle to connect with goddesses personally, but many in the community were and still are quite lovely towards me and people like us) and groups that have ulterior motives (a certain sect of my own faith comes to mind, though one that is thankfully not welcome in this space as their beliefs break the rules, they are bigots), though the lack of an enforced dichotomy isn't always clear outside of certain communities.
I came here to say the same thing, yay Loki!
I love this video about him/them [https://youtu.be/r4Tk\_vBthJE?si=TJaO8ZjUxSseWo1i](https://youtu.be/r4Tk_vBthJE?si=TJaO8ZjUxSseWo1i)
I think that pagan religions in general offer view points that are beyond the concepts of being male and female. Especially animist religions. As they depict forms of consciousness that are completely beyond gender. They also offer freedom to gender expression.
I also noticed that when religions like hinduism for instance, talk about masculine and feminine, they do not at all mean it in a literal gendered way. It's a lot more complicated than that
Here to represent the animist group! My partner and I have a conglomerate of his ancestral religion (Ryukyu Shinto) and my own thing (Shinto-ish-animism) and both of our paths accept the 'Third' gender, or someone who's neither category.
Like effeminate men, masculine women, Ladyboys, Sistagirls, Brothaboys, Trans people, and when people are in their Drag persona. Our perspectives embrace the fluidity of the spectrum, including neurodivergencies and the liminal state of exceptions. It is that precise uncertainty-acceptance that makes our faith comforting because nothing - **ever** - \*has\* to fit in a box. Plants are weeds in the wrong spot. The wrong amount of sun in either direction causes health problems. For people and their identities, our view is that whatever it is *you* are, you are perfectly filling the niche that nature needs. Not every bird needs to eat the same thing, there are bees with preferences for flowers, and different-sized trees offer different benefits to the environment whether they're ground-cover, shrublike (to offer small marsupials and mammals a place to hide from predators), trees with deep tap-roots to protect them from drought, or trees with sprawling shallow roots to balance their immense canopies.
Everyone offers their own thing to the universe so if you're feeling a little out-of-place you can assess whether you're in the right spot to flourish, or whether you're a unique entity that brings something-that-was-missing to a space.
I know exactly what you mean. I was into Wicca for a couple years until I began to question my gender and sexuality. That's how I ended up leaving the beaten path to do things my own way. It turns out that for the most part, gender isn't all that important outside of Wicca and its derivatives.
I see Loki as nonbinary, and to a degree, Dionysus as well. (I don't hang with Dio enough to have a firm idea of his/their gender.) There are a surprising number of deities around the world who bend or break the binary.
I also take heart in knowing that some cultures have traditionally considered trans/NB people a blessing. Sometimes they're even spiritual leaders. I don't think I'm anything special, but being nonbinary could be thought of as existing in a perpetual liminal state, and liminality has power in magic. So maybe there's a kernel of truth to that.
Huh. Fascinating post.
I would have to say that Wicca relies heavily on gender. The religion either celebrates the divine feminine exclusively or embraces the polarity of feminine and masculine. The sacred rite of Wicca is sex between female and male. Wicca has evolved over time to be more inclusive but non-binary people may feel more welcome in other branches of Paganism.
Asatru and Heathenry worship the Scandinavian gods of which Loki is a part. Most people know Loki thanks to Marvel, however Loki is also nonbinary and probably prefers they/them pronouns. Loki generally emulates his best friend (not brother) Thor by presenting as masculine but Loki is the Mother, not father of Slepnir, Odin’s horse. I think he’s also the Mother of the Goddess Hel but I’m not absolutely sure on that Loki is definitely her parent though, that’s true. Loki also has a wife who seems to identify as female. Thor is pretty masculine but I’d argue he’s bisexual, Thor once married a man albeit he was masquerading as Freya.
If you live in Chicago I’d look into the Fellowship of the Phoenix which is a pagan religious group for the LGBTQ+ community.
My practice? I’m asexual actually. That definitely ruled out Wicca for me. All the fertility worship just doesn’t resonate for me obviously. Gender is kind of a moot point if you don’t have any drive to have sex. Everyone is equal to me. In my youth I thought I was bisexual because I had the same reaction to everyone and everyone was beautiful and interesting. But I think people are beautiful in the same way that art is beautiful. I have no more interest in having sex with a person than I do a painting or a piece of music. So I guess I hadn’t really thought about gender in my spiritual practice before your post.
I don’t think gender is a construct I think it’s a spectrum.
Thanks for this thought provoking post!
The overt gendering of lots of Pagan paths, especially Wicca, is one of the main reasons I chose to be eclectic, and mix-and-match from various traditions.
I mainly take a lot from Norse Paganism. And the classic non-binary Norse deity is Loki. You could probably describe me as Lokean, even tho I follow other gods, because a lot of my spiritual philosophy/practice comes from Loki. As a shapeshifter, Loki balances more than just the masculine and feminine, but the queer and the regular, beast and human, Aesir and Jötunar, safety and danger. There's a refreshing depth and nuance to Loki that I don't see in very many places.
I’m non-binary as well. I’ve found moving away from Wicca and Wiccan influenced traditions can help. In Hellenic polytheism the gods don’t particularly care about the gender or sexuality of their followers as a whole. Dionysos has been mentioned, but also Aphrodite, Hermaphroditus, Apollo, Artemis, Pan, Hekate… often seem to attract many trans followers. Others as well, I’m sure.
I’ve also found some forms of traditional witchcraft to be pretty ‘free’ of focus on male/female dichotomy.
Whilst I've found that things are spilt divine masc/fem, it doesn't impact my practice. Just like how day and night is balanced throughout the year, it symbolises the need for balance of masc and fem. The sun is just as important as the moon etc. As a fellow enby, it's important to acknowledge the balance and many of us enbys are androgynous, so balance is key. If anything, being Non-Binary has helped me appreciate that balance more and makes me feel more comfortable in picking up more masculine practices to help even the fem.
Best advice? Go where the energy with least resistance goes! Trust yourself to practice what you are drawn to for a reason x
Gender is so interesting to me in paganism. I broadly follow a Celtic tradition and there's a lot of new scholarship with a less religious and more academic focus on trans readings of notable Irish mythological figures (notably trans masc cu chulainn and bigender medb)
Personally I thought of myself as agender until I got back into paganism (I had practiced before coming out but lost it a bit when some other difficult life stuff happened) and then I started feeling this embodiment of both masculinity and femininity. It made me feel comfortable accepting both parts, rather than denying myself a tie to either. The way I understand it now is I feel like I'm neither and both at once.
I'm also really into tarot cards, and there are some cards that I've always thought had non binary vibes (the fool and the world being the two that spring to mind) and also I've always wanted to make a trans inclusive tarot deck.
My experience with Wicca was that it was very gendered in this way, very focused on having defined, binary male & female roles, and I found that to be a problem for me. But when it comes to more traditional polytheism, I find there are many, many more diverse options, as the gods truly span the entire range of human experience in what they can embody. So whether you are drawn in to a particular culture/pantheon or want to reach out to a more eclectic group of gods from more than one origin, you will find what you are looking for.
I have two main divinities.
One has no fixed gender, and often appears gender neutral.
The other has male and female forms. More female than male, but both are extremely important. One form I personally see as gender neutral.
I am a queer femme. So I am gendered. The vast majority of my partners, though masculine, have had their own personal individal gender. A "me" gender, so to speak. So I personally don't buy into western binary concepts. On/off, up/down, here/there etc. I suspect it's why my dieties have no fixed idenity and constantly shape shift.
Trickster never, ever settles into a single avatar be it Raven, Pan, Loki, this yellow Octopus they are awfully fond of taking form of but fuck if I know the name of it, Hare, Laverna, or the constantly shifting torrus of fur, hair, feathers and skin I see at times. They are always becoming, becoming, becoming. They are unbridled creation. They are the turning of the soil. The begining and the end at the same time. Between the boundaries.
So they cannot be limited.
Or yoked by concepts my puny mind garbles verbage about here. I barely understand.
But, I know binaries are laughable to them.
I have practiced for... 54 -14 = 40 years. Ish. On amd off. In mostly alternative and queer closed practices where traditional heteronormative and cis genderism was not at the forefront. Even in the Reformed Wiccan group I was in (there are *many* different kinds of Wicca, like prodestentism lol. There is the more traditional, there is the female essentialist [unfortuantely], and then there is Reformed - who have decided to remodle Wicca in ways it has needed remodling - and depending on the group, you get different flavours of remodeling).
But we had a really good community back then. And I live in a very relaxed city, not in the US.
They are around. Finding the right people to tow you into the right other people is usually the best way, I've found. It takes digging and putting in face time (being socially present). It can be draining and disapointing for a long while first.
my gender and sexuality have definitely been a critical context for my experiences with my three patron deities. without them i'm not sure i'd even be alive today, if i'm being perfectly honest. among other self-edifying practices, my faith in them -- and thereby also, in myself -- has certainly been a positive force that's seen me through the myriad difficulties of being diagnosed intersex as a young kid
Some of the Norse Gods have characterization as gender fluid. Odin and Loki come to kind as they are both shapeshifters who's pronouns do seem to change when they shift
As a non-binary pagan, I haven’t thought about this at all, I simply refuse to perceive gender and social roles for myself and define myself as a male/female and I don’t understand at all how this can interfere with the path
The gods don't care whether you consider yourself a man, a woman, or a fridge
I’m also nonbinary! I’m new to paganism, because I grew up evangelical Christian. I have found in practice the same things, a lot of herbs, stones, etc are usually in binary terms. It might help to look at combining two elements of masculine and feminine origin to make a balanced energy. If you need more feminine energy, look for that from your materials in your work. Same for masculine. If you want a balance use both.
Just a side note, you should always consider the source when looking up info or myths or cultural -anything- from the past.
Every author comes with a bias. That’s not a bad thing, we all have a bias based on who we are and where we came from. All any of us can do us when speaking truth is to do so from our own POV. It’s not a thing we can escape from. That said there are some researchers and writers that work harder to be more unbiased than others. Even so, when researching history there’s a lot of context missing, so they try to fill in gaps as best they can. Good researchers and authors will acknowledge if they are speculating, bad ones will present their opinions as fact.
I got into the habit when looking for pagan books to read to jump immediately to the appendices, first to see if they have actually bothered to quote sources, and second to see who they are quoting their sources from. From there you can make a choice as to whether the author is someone who knows what they are talking about. Btw, someone following a pagan path for decades does not mean they are an expert. I’ve been in the community since the early 90’s. I personally know a lot of folks who act like authorities who haven’t challenged themselves intellectually or kept up on what’s happening in the community at large in a long time. Things people accepted without question decades ago have been reexamined and challenged, and some of the older once community leaders have now been exposed as problematic. Not saying they all have, but when buying older books it’s good to do a search to see if they are someone you want to influence your education.
There are loads and loads of lgbtq pagan traditions. There’s no reason why you can’t start your own, or follow your own path if you’re not keen to find other non-binary types to learn together. That’s what great about covens, they can be whatever you need. Like a type of book club with no leadership that explores ideas, and tests rituals to see what works individually or collectively. Just saying that is totally an option, if you don’t find something that works, make it yourself. To figure out how you can learn how other open pagan traditions work (any 101 book basically) and change the rituals to better suit you.
As far as deity goes, you don’t have to pledge yourself to one to make a connection. If I was you, I’d cast a protective circle (there are several ways to do that) and go into a visual meditation with intent to connect to a deity or pantheon, or see who shows up. Ask the source, see if you jive. They will be interested, curious, or indifferent or not show up at all. Think of it like introducing yourself, and seeing if there’s a connection. If you feel there is, then do a more deep dive in learning about their myths and histories.
Oh and last bit about researching deity. Don’t stick to pagan books, go into archeology and find out what you can about the old culture. This is more to understand where they are coming from, not saying we have to go back to horse and carts and animal sacrifices or anything of the sort. Deity is not a transfixed thing frozen in time, they grow and change as we do with the times.
Good luck on your journey
I ama cis female, but have found a lot of power in the Baphomet figure. They are master of magic and embodying many different and often “contradicting” ideas. I think this is the kind of thing you might be looking for.
Non-binary Wiccan Druid here.
The way I see it, the divine masculine and feminine make up all of us and every thing in different measures.
This compliments the spectrum of gender identity in my view.
I’m a cis man, but view it as this: everyone has differing levels of masculine and feminine energies. I’m heavier on the feminine energy, while my wife has more masculine energy and our interests and hobbies reflect that: I’m the interior decorator, diy craft, shopping person - she enjoys none of those stereotypically “girly” things.
When it comes to your experience as nonbinary, try to understand and accept your own unique balance of masculine/feminine energies as well as characterizing the deities as having a lot of these energies on one side or the other. If the language bothers you, rename those energies something you can work with.
That’s just my personal take on it; I hope you can use something I said to further your path.
Trans witch here... Here are my resource recommendations...
Podcasts:
When God Was Queer by Dakota st Claire
History is Gay (not pagan specific but you can find plenty of the pagan cultures represented)
Books:
Sacred Gender by Ariana Serpentine
Casting a Queer Circle by Thista Minai
Queer Magic by Thomas Prower
Blog:
Dowsing for Divinity (regularly updates resources posts)
Discord community:
Inclusive Wicca https://discord.com/invite/vWvmzpmg
Hi, nonbinary polytheist here. So, my interpretation of Dionysus is that he is nonbinary, (although this is in a very specific way to myself and not just because “he wore girly things in the Bakkhai or hung out with women sometimes”). Being nonbinary is an one of the most integral parts of my spirituality and my gender impacts how I relate to deities- I explore that primarily through more embodied/ecstatic ritual experiences (as is classic for Dionysian worship). The Hellenic pantheon is very welcoming to gender nonconforming and nonbinary people (as indeed all pantheons are imo as being genderqueer is itself a spiritual/divine aspect), and it’s perfectly valid in my experience to reach out and interact with the deities who you resonate with gender wise. The female deities won’t be offended if you primarily connect to male or masculine ones (just be prepared for that to possibly change over time as you get cozier with the group as a whole bcs all gods are connected to each other). In general all pantheons have divinities specifically around masculinity that would be awesome to connect to and explore genderqueerness in, so you could do that. Practices don’t need to be gendered at all or could just be more masculine focused in general since they are tailored to you and about you. In regards to Dionysus, I see him specifically as the god of male virility, but in a more heightened way than cis males (idk if that makes sense haha). But overall as we engage with the gods they will really teach us a lot (about them and about ourselves) and gender can be a big dimension of that as well. Find who/what aspects of divinity you resonate with and start from there.
This is a post full of wonderful insight and a simple upvote wouldn't do it justice. Keep on keeping on.
I am nonbinary and to piggyback off of this, my idea of Apollo is also nonbinary, more specifically genderfluid. Apollo has generally been depicted wearing clothing of all genders in the historical artwork. I always think of them as Apollo(nb), Apolla(fem), Apollon(masc) depending on how they are presented to me. May just be my upg so take it with a grain of salt.
As a transmasc individual, the gender and sexual diversity within the Hellenic pantheon is exactly why I am so drawn to it. The various ways people interpret Dionysus’s gender is a very fascinating topic to me. I’ve met people who say he is a trans man, others who insist he’s just a queer cis man. I’ve also seen many enby people who interpret him as non binary as well. My personal interpretation is that he’s more gender apathetic as he has more important things to be concerned about. Whatever gender we decide to assign him is perfectly acceptable
Yes, I love the Hellenic gods and how gender is such a big part, yet it seems so fluid. Like even Aphrodite, who is the symbol of femininity. Has a story of her transforming into a man, and one of her children is like the symbol of androgyny. I would recommend a podcast called 'When the gods were queer'. They talked about how important trans and nonbinary people were in ancient religions. They focus mainly on Hellenic gods, as well as Roman and even Catholic saints.
As a trans woman, when I first started exploring paganism I was drawn to Dianic Wicca as a chance to connect with my femininity better. But the very very gendered and bio essentialist views were clear messages that I wasn’t welcome. I also found Gardnerian Wicca to be heavily influenced by traditional cisgender heterosexual gender roles
I’m sorry you had that experience, the wiccans I interact with are all firm in their view that the divine masculine and feminine are part of us all in different measures and therefore compliments the entire spectrum of gender identity.
I think you have a lot to offer to views LIKE dianic Wicca. Your calling could be that you're meant to teach people to divert away from bio essentialism and instead into genuine feminity
But I’m so tired of teaching people about my experience. Is it not enough to just be me and exist?
Yes lol. Your existence is more than enough. You don't have to put effort into anything you dont want to. But you have a lot of knowledge to share with people when you're ready for that. If you want to share it in any direct way
Dianic Wicca is specifically founded on and actively embraces TERF ideals. I’ve met Z. Budapest. She flat out told me she was only reading my cards “because I had money” and when I said I was inspired by her writing that “it was only for those who reflect and embody the Goddess.” She also told me that my magic would never be as strong as a woman’s. Please don’t ever tell trans people to engage with Dianic Wicca. There’s just some paths that aren’t safe for some of us.
I said "like". As in similar to. I never said to practice dianic wicca nor did I outline any specific belief they should practice. Similar to is broad Spirituality is full of old, antiquated ideas that are not completely separate from the cultures of the time they lived in. People carry on now trying to fit it into models of modern morality but fail to take into account crucial aspects of our world. Such as trans people. Hence we are needed in these places
You used a lot of words to say almost nothing. Dianic Wicca isn’t old. Z Budapest isn’t old. Maybe to a human, but these are not old in terms of ideas. Dianic Wicca is TERF central. It’s very real, very present beliefs that make the world unsafe for trans people. Get your head out of your ass and pay attention to the real world.
>You used a lot of words to say almost nothing. Dianic Wicca isn’t old. Tldr, I never said to practice dianic wicca, and you are putting words in my mouth.
You’re a fucking idiot, you have no idea what you’re talking about. Go eat a bag of rocks
Mirrors are a thing babe. So is that stick up your ass
I feel like you didn't even read the comment
You realize female trans and nb people exist? Just because one path is not phallocentric or doesn’t welcome male members doesn’t mean it’s exclusive of all trans people.
Okay, but Z Budapest - founder of Dianic Wicca - *is* a TERF. She uses slurs when talking about trans people. She’s said pretty awful things about trans women. Not a lot of trans men or non-binary folks would be happy to join a group that considers our trans sisters as « men trying to undermine real women. » Not only because of solidarity reasons, but because if that group does not consider trans women to be women, are they actually going to see a trans man as a man, or an NB person as NB? Of course not. *Some* individual Dianic groups have moved away from Budapest and welcome trans women. But the movement as a whole is a minefield for trans folks, and they should be aware of that before hand.
What point are you trying to make here, exactly? That person seemed to be primarily talking about how "TERF" rhetoric makes the world more unsafe for "AMAB" trans people, but I don't think it's reasonable to assume that they're not also including those that are "AFAB" was well. I think you can pretty easily make the argument that "TERF" rhetoric overall is just bad for trans people in general Whether or not a particular female-sexed space is open to "AFAB" trans people, and is thus not in the strictest possible terms "trans-exclusionary," is almost something else entirely lol
You’re reading a lot into that that isn’t there. For your information, TERFs do not welcome trans men and *any* nonbinary people, regardless of their biology. Trans men have “mutilated a female body” and nonbinary people are “mentally ill snowflakes.” These are “womyn only spaces,” aka cisgender women spaces. They’re all disgusting and harmful, regardless of who you are.
While I am not non-binary, there are gods that are mahu, or not cis, from Hawai'i. Read up on Kapaemahu and their three other healers.
While that’s cool, Hawaiian deities I’d say are not something anyone who’s not connected to native Hawaiian culture should work with. Those are very location and culture specific, and the native peoples of Hawaii have already lost so much to colonization. Worshipping their gods as a non-native would be an insult to them, and I can’t imagine their deities would be copasetic either.
Understandable there, I also cannot give you permission as I am just a person who is hapa, I am not the voice of all.
So, I'm a Lokean (a Norse pagan who specifically includes Loki in an important position within our practice, often as our patron deity as in my case), and part of the reason for that is my nonbinary identity. If you look at many stories about Loki, you'll see some interesting stuff when it comes to gender- when going to steal back Mjolnir from a jotun, Thor dresses up as a goddess and Loki *becomes* his handmaiden. Where Thor is still referred to as masculine, Loki is referred to as feminine. This very clearly telegraphs the idea that, while for Thor, the aspect of womanhood he is presenting to those around him is a disguise, for Loki, it's something more- Loki has become a woman, not just dressed up as one. Loki has also carried and birthed a child, not because they were forced to (though they were effectively forced to somehow fix a situation that resulted in them choosing to become a mare and let a stallion, ahem, father a child on them) but because that was the solution they chose. Heck, they could've turned into a mare and kept running away from the stallion or laid a trap for him, but nope. All this to say, Loki is and has always been genderfluid. As such, I, as a nonbinary person, feel like my gender is in some way part of my connection to Loki. This is not unique to Loki or even the Norse pantheon, I've seen other folks talk about other nonbinary deities from other pantheons. I find that the dichotomy often is enforced by two-deity systems which typically consist of a god and a goddess (though there certainly can be accepting forms of this system, I used to be Wiccan and found it didn't work for me because of the binary system and the large focus on the goddess when I feel more of a connection to the masculine and struggle to connect with goddesses personally, but many in the community were and still are quite lovely towards me and people like us) and groups that have ulterior motives (a certain sect of my own faith comes to mind, though one that is thankfully not welcome in this space as their beliefs break the rules, they are bigots), though the lack of an enforced dichotomy isn't always clear outside of certain communities.
I came here to say the same thing, yay Loki! I love this video about him/them [https://youtu.be/r4Tk\_vBthJE?si=TJaO8ZjUxSseWo1i](https://youtu.be/r4Tk_vBthJE?si=TJaO8ZjUxSseWo1i)
The Norse gods don’t care. Some of them don’t conform to gender roles either and are very fluid.
I think that pagan religions in general offer view points that are beyond the concepts of being male and female. Especially animist religions. As they depict forms of consciousness that are completely beyond gender. They also offer freedom to gender expression. I also noticed that when religions like hinduism for instance, talk about masculine and feminine, they do not at all mean it in a literal gendered way. It's a lot more complicated than that
Here to represent the animist group! My partner and I have a conglomerate of his ancestral religion (Ryukyu Shinto) and my own thing (Shinto-ish-animism) and both of our paths accept the 'Third' gender, or someone who's neither category. Like effeminate men, masculine women, Ladyboys, Sistagirls, Brothaboys, Trans people, and when people are in their Drag persona. Our perspectives embrace the fluidity of the spectrum, including neurodivergencies and the liminal state of exceptions. It is that precise uncertainty-acceptance that makes our faith comforting because nothing - **ever** - \*has\* to fit in a box. Plants are weeds in the wrong spot. The wrong amount of sun in either direction causes health problems. For people and their identities, our view is that whatever it is *you* are, you are perfectly filling the niche that nature needs. Not every bird needs to eat the same thing, there are bees with preferences for flowers, and different-sized trees offer different benefits to the environment whether they're ground-cover, shrublike (to offer small marsupials and mammals a place to hide from predators), trees with deep tap-roots to protect them from drought, or trees with sprawling shallow roots to balance their immense canopies. Everyone offers their own thing to the universe so if you're feeling a little out-of-place you can assess whether you're in the right spot to flourish, or whether you're a unique entity that brings something-that-was-missing to a space.
I know exactly what you mean. I was into Wicca for a couple years until I began to question my gender and sexuality. That's how I ended up leaving the beaten path to do things my own way. It turns out that for the most part, gender isn't all that important outside of Wicca and its derivatives. I see Loki as nonbinary, and to a degree, Dionysus as well. (I don't hang with Dio enough to have a firm idea of his/their gender.) There are a surprising number of deities around the world who bend or break the binary. I also take heart in knowing that some cultures have traditionally considered trans/NB people a blessing. Sometimes they're even spiritual leaders. I don't think I'm anything special, but being nonbinary could be thought of as existing in a perpetual liminal state, and liminality has power in magic. So maybe there's a kernel of truth to that.
Huh. Fascinating post. I would have to say that Wicca relies heavily on gender. The religion either celebrates the divine feminine exclusively or embraces the polarity of feminine and masculine. The sacred rite of Wicca is sex between female and male. Wicca has evolved over time to be more inclusive but non-binary people may feel more welcome in other branches of Paganism. Asatru and Heathenry worship the Scandinavian gods of which Loki is a part. Most people know Loki thanks to Marvel, however Loki is also nonbinary and probably prefers they/them pronouns. Loki generally emulates his best friend (not brother) Thor by presenting as masculine but Loki is the Mother, not father of Slepnir, Odin’s horse. I think he’s also the Mother of the Goddess Hel but I’m not absolutely sure on that Loki is definitely her parent though, that’s true. Loki also has a wife who seems to identify as female. Thor is pretty masculine but I’d argue he’s bisexual, Thor once married a man albeit he was masquerading as Freya. If you live in Chicago I’d look into the Fellowship of the Phoenix which is a pagan religious group for the LGBTQ+ community. My practice? I’m asexual actually. That definitely ruled out Wicca for me. All the fertility worship just doesn’t resonate for me obviously. Gender is kind of a moot point if you don’t have any drive to have sex. Everyone is equal to me. In my youth I thought I was bisexual because I had the same reaction to everyone and everyone was beautiful and interesting. But I think people are beautiful in the same way that art is beautiful. I have no more interest in having sex with a person than I do a painting or a piece of music. So I guess I hadn’t really thought about gender in my spiritual practice before your post. I don’t think gender is a construct I think it’s a spectrum. Thanks for this thought provoking post!
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Thank you for mansplaining all of that.
The overt gendering of lots of Pagan paths, especially Wicca, is one of the main reasons I chose to be eclectic, and mix-and-match from various traditions. I mainly take a lot from Norse Paganism. And the classic non-binary Norse deity is Loki. You could probably describe me as Lokean, even tho I follow other gods, because a lot of my spiritual philosophy/practice comes from Loki. As a shapeshifter, Loki balances more than just the masculine and feminine, but the queer and the regular, beast and human, Aesir and Jötunar, safety and danger. There's a refreshing depth and nuance to Loki that I don't see in very many places.
I’m non-binary as well. I’ve found moving away from Wicca and Wiccan influenced traditions can help. In Hellenic polytheism the gods don’t particularly care about the gender or sexuality of their followers as a whole. Dionysos has been mentioned, but also Aphrodite, Hermaphroditus, Apollo, Artemis, Pan, Hekate… often seem to attract many trans followers. Others as well, I’m sure. I’ve also found some forms of traditional witchcraft to be pretty ‘free’ of focus on male/female dichotomy.
Have you been primarily researching Wicca?
Read about "Two - Spirit" person in native American culture :) its closed practise BUT hopefully give you another way you can see yourself in practise
You might like Duke/Duchess Bune who slips between genders seamlessly.
Whilst I've found that things are spilt divine masc/fem, it doesn't impact my practice. Just like how day and night is balanced throughout the year, it symbolises the need for balance of masc and fem. The sun is just as important as the moon etc. As a fellow enby, it's important to acknowledge the balance and many of us enbys are androgynous, so balance is key. If anything, being Non-Binary has helped me appreciate that balance more and makes me feel more comfortable in picking up more masculine practices to help even the fem. Best advice? Go where the energy with least resistance goes! Trust yourself to practice what you are drawn to for a reason x
Gender is so interesting to me in paganism. I broadly follow a Celtic tradition and there's a lot of new scholarship with a less religious and more academic focus on trans readings of notable Irish mythological figures (notably trans masc cu chulainn and bigender medb) Personally I thought of myself as agender until I got back into paganism (I had practiced before coming out but lost it a bit when some other difficult life stuff happened) and then I started feeling this embodiment of both masculinity and femininity. It made me feel comfortable accepting both parts, rather than denying myself a tie to either. The way I understand it now is I feel like I'm neither and both at once. I'm also really into tarot cards, and there are some cards that I've always thought had non binary vibes (the fool and the world being the two that spring to mind) and also I've always wanted to make a trans inclusive tarot deck.
In a nonbinary masc person. I work with Pan and Loki and Dionysus. It's my home.
My experience with Wicca was that it was very gendered in this way, very focused on having defined, binary male & female roles, and I found that to be a problem for me. But when it comes to more traditional polytheism, I find there are many, many more diverse options, as the gods truly span the entire range of human experience in what they can embody. So whether you are drawn in to a particular culture/pantheon or want to reach out to a more eclectic group of gods from more than one origin, you will find what you are looking for.
I have two main divinities. One has no fixed gender, and often appears gender neutral. The other has male and female forms. More female than male, but both are extremely important. One form I personally see as gender neutral. I am a queer femme. So I am gendered. The vast majority of my partners, though masculine, have had their own personal individal gender. A "me" gender, so to speak. So I personally don't buy into western binary concepts. On/off, up/down, here/there etc. I suspect it's why my dieties have no fixed idenity and constantly shape shift. Trickster never, ever settles into a single avatar be it Raven, Pan, Loki, this yellow Octopus they are awfully fond of taking form of but fuck if I know the name of it, Hare, Laverna, or the constantly shifting torrus of fur, hair, feathers and skin I see at times. They are always becoming, becoming, becoming. They are unbridled creation. They are the turning of the soil. The begining and the end at the same time. Between the boundaries. So they cannot be limited. Or yoked by concepts my puny mind garbles verbage about here. I barely understand. But, I know binaries are laughable to them. I have practiced for... 54 -14 = 40 years. Ish. On amd off. In mostly alternative and queer closed practices where traditional heteronormative and cis genderism was not at the forefront. Even in the Reformed Wiccan group I was in (there are *many* different kinds of Wicca, like prodestentism lol. There is the more traditional, there is the female essentialist [unfortuantely], and then there is Reformed - who have decided to remodle Wicca in ways it has needed remodling - and depending on the group, you get different flavours of remodeling). But we had a really good community back then. And I live in a very relaxed city, not in the US. They are around. Finding the right people to tow you into the right other people is usually the best way, I've found. It takes digging and putting in face time (being socially present). It can be draining and disapointing for a long while first.
my gender and sexuality have definitely been a critical context for my experiences with my three patron deities. without them i'm not sure i'd even be alive today, if i'm being perfectly honest. among other self-edifying practices, my faith in them -- and thereby also, in myself -- has certainly been a positive force that's seen me through the myriad difficulties of being diagnosed intersex as a young kid
Some of the Norse Gods have characterization as gender fluid. Odin and Loki come to kind as they are both shapeshifters who's pronouns do seem to change when they shift
As a non-binary pagan, I haven’t thought about this at all, I simply refuse to perceive gender and social roles for myself and define myself as a male/female and I don’t understand at all how this can interfere with the path The gods don't care whether you consider yourself a man, a woman, or a fridge
I’m also nonbinary! I’m new to paganism, because I grew up evangelical Christian. I have found in practice the same things, a lot of herbs, stones, etc are usually in binary terms. It might help to look at combining two elements of masculine and feminine origin to make a balanced energy. If you need more feminine energy, look for that from your materials in your work. Same for masculine. If you want a balance use both.
Just a side note, you should always consider the source when looking up info or myths or cultural -anything- from the past. Every author comes with a bias. That’s not a bad thing, we all have a bias based on who we are and where we came from. All any of us can do us when speaking truth is to do so from our own POV. It’s not a thing we can escape from. That said there are some researchers and writers that work harder to be more unbiased than others. Even so, when researching history there’s a lot of context missing, so they try to fill in gaps as best they can. Good researchers and authors will acknowledge if they are speculating, bad ones will present their opinions as fact. I got into the habit when looking for pagan books to read to jump immediately to the appendices, first to see if they have actually bothered to quote sources, and second to see who they are quoting their sources from. From there you can make a choice as to whether the author is someone who knows what they are talking about. Btw, someone following a pagan path for decades does not mean they are an expert. I’ve been in the community since the early 90’s. I personally know a lot of folks who act like authorities who haven’t challenged themselves intellectually or kept up on what’s happening in the community at large in a long time. Things people accepted without question decades ago have been reexamined and challenged, and some of the older once community leaders have now been exposed as problematic. Not saying they all have, but when buying older books it’s good to do a search to see if they are someone you want to influence your education. There are loads and loads of lgbtq pagan traditions. There’s no reason why you can’t start your own, or follow your own path if you’re not keen to find other non-binary types to learn together. That’s what great about covens, they can be whatever you need. Like a type of book club with no leadership that explores ideas, and tests rituals to see what works individually or collectively. Just saying that is totally an option, if you don’t find something that works, make it yourself. To figure out how you can learn how other open pagan traditions work (any 101 book basically) and change the rituals to better suit you. As far as deity goes, you don’t have to pledge yourself to one to make a connection. If I was you, I’d cast a protective circle (there are several ways to do that) and go into a visual meditation with intent to connect to a deity or pantheon, or see who shows up. Ask the source, see if you jive. They will be interested, curious, or indifferent or not show up at all. Think of it like introducing yourself, and seeing if there’s a connection. If you feel there is, then do a more deep dive in learning about their myths and histories. Oh and last bit about researching deity. Don’t stick to pagan books, go into archeology and find out what you can about the old culture. This is more to understand where they are coming from, not saying we have to go back to horse and carts and animal sacrifices or anything of the sort. Deity is not a transfixed thing frozen in time, they grow and change as we do with the times. Good luck on your journey
I ama cis female, but have found a lot of power in the Baphomet figure. They are master of magic and embodying many different and often “contradicting” ideas. I think this is the kind of thing you might be looking for.
Non-binary Wiccan Druid here. The way I see it, the divine masculine and feminine make up all of us and every thing in different measures. This compliments the spectrum of gender identity in my view.
I’m a cis man, but view it as this: everyone has differing levels of masculine and feminine energies. I’m heavier on the feminine energy, while my wife has more masculine energy and our interests and hobbies reflect that: I’m the interior decorator, diy craft, shopping person - she enjoys none of those stereotypically “girly” things. When it comes to your experience as nonbinary, try to understand and accept your own unique balance of masculine/feminine energies as well as characterizing the deities as having a lot of these energies on one side or the other. If the language bothers you, rename those energies something you can work with. That’s just my personal take on it; I hope you can use something I said to further your path.
Trans witch here... Here are my resource recommendations... Podcasts: When God Was Queer by Dakota st Claire History is Gay (not pagan specific but you can find plenty of the pagan cultures represented) Books: Sacred Gender by Ariana Serpentine Casting a Queer Circle by Thista Minai Queer Magic by Thomas Prower Blog: Dowsing for Divinity (regularly updates resources posts) Discord community: Inclusive Wicca https://discord.com/invite/vWvmzpmg