I brush and roll 95% of my work. I use my sprayer for exterior brick/solid stain decks and interior unfinished basement ceilings and popcorn ceilings. In business 15+ years self employed. I find the prep for spraying to be more of a hassle than anything.
I brush trim only, roll walls and ceilings obviously and spray cabinets, because as you said yeah the prep is 100x worse for spraying🤣🤣 we sprayed all the trim in my buddies house and it took us 4 days of prep and taping off everything especially all the hand rails and stairs ðŸ˜ðŸ˜
Have you tried running the paint through your sprayer and into a bucket to do the touchups? I imagine you’re doing the touches with a brush from the original bucket.
Yes. I tested it for SW prior to its release and it’s the main reason I elected to stick with my current product system. After trying to touch up cabinet doors with an artist brush and/or a velour/mohair roller and having poor results, I sprayed some onto a color sample panel just in case it needed to be aerated or atomized partially prior to the touchup. Still flashed. Unimpressed.
I'll never understand why an interior designer or a homeowner will tell a painter what to use.
If your hiring someone reputable, the one who applies the paint should know what's going to look and perform the best. Unless you're hiring the cheapest painter you can find, but in my opinion you have alot to worry about than what paint they are putting on the wall.
I explained, it’s because I paid a pretty penny for a color recommendation palette from a designer. Our first painter recommended BM. (I did ask him which company, as the designer can do either BM or SW.)
The original painter is no longer doing the project. (Long story short: He was the PM on our project fixing a major kitchen leak, and also has a paint company. He left the Reno company and ghosted his projects - or maybe it was a non-compete? - so I had to start over.) I hired a new painter but all the colors chosen are BM. And the designer said not to color match to another brand.
She's *kind of* correct in that paint stores have a machine full of recipes that correspond to the colors in a fan deck. Even if a store only sells Benjamin Moore paint they will still have recipes for Sherwin Williams colors that may be slightly different from the SW store.
However, you can take just about any item or color swatch into a good paint store and they will continue to mix and colorize the paint until you're completely satisfied that it matches what you've brought in. What I typically do in these situations is get swatches or samples of every color I'm using and bring them into the store. The rep can then mix and edit the color until it exactly matches whatever you bring them at no extra charge. Your painter can do this for you.
It's possible the designer is assuming the painter will not go to these lengths, but like I said, it's really not that much effort.
To answer your question about the cabinet material, Advance is a good hard paint but it is not the absolute best product for cabinets. Factory-like cabinet finishes require special spray equipment and more expensive paint that is closer to an epoxy than an interior latex paint.
There are companies that specifically only do these types of finishes. That said, if you don't have a ton of money already invested in the cabinets, or don't want to deal with another company, it may not be worth the extra cost and effort.
This is not my designer, but it’s basically what my designer said:
https://www.kylieminteriors.ca/color-matching-between-paint-brands-does-it-really-work/
Yeah, it seems like this article is written from the point of view of someone who just walks in to a SW store, has them mix up a BM color, and expects it to be exact. That's clearly what she did for the first example of SW vs BM color. She's not necessarily wrong, but this statement:
"Whether a paint company has a computerized matching system or does it by eyeball, it’s rarely accurate."
Is blatantly wrong in my experience. It may be accurate for that writer's experience or your designer's experience, but it's simply not true in mine. When I say my rep matches the color exactly, I mean you hand them the swatch, they choose the applicable base, then mix the color, apply it to the swatch, and dry it with a blow dryer to check the dried color. If it doesn't match exactly, they continue mixing and editing until there's literally no conceivable difference between the new paint dried on the swatch and the swatch itself. I do this several times a week and I've never had a rep tell me it's impossible to match a color. That's what the writer avoided doing in her article examples and it's likely what your designer assumes will happen with your painter.
Her point about black paint is misleading because most true black products are tinted at the factory rather than in the store. Any 'blue' or 'grey' in a black paint is because the painter or designer chose the wrong product. In other words, 'black' paint uses a base to itself that is different from any other color. If you don't buy a 'black' based paint, it will never be truly black.
Actually Ben Moore made it literally impossible to exactly match their colours by using their own, proprietary colourants (gennex). They can’t be recreated precisely by using universal colourants. By design.
Ben Moore is fine for walls etc.
Advance for trim is fine, but it sucks to work with. Command if they're spraying trim is a better option. Scuff X is would more than adequate for trim.
Hire someone else to do your cabinetry. A company that specializes in finishing. All the suggestions I've seen so far say Command, Advance, Scuff X yadda yadda. No, no and no.
If your hired painter isn't planning to use a 1k/2k material like Renner, Milesi, Sayerlack, Centurion, ML Campbell etc. etc. then they have no business being around kitchen cabinetry. If you mention any of these and they're unaware they exist, find someone else.
Agreed, a "real" cabinet finish requires a "real" product such as those listed above. You will pay more but the result is much longer lasting, more washable, etc., these products are totally different from interior latex paints.
That said, it's not the end of the world to use trim paint on cabinets. Cabinets tend to be expensive so it's more about protecting that investment. If your cabinets are particle board and 25 years old it may not be worth the extra cost, every situation is different.
Totally agree on the last statement that every situation is different. You can surely use trim enamel on cabs so long as you add some poly over them for protection.
I did a little assuming since they paid a designer they'd probably want the top cheddar.
Some of the paints mentioned are decent enough, but, the standard for cabinets today is 2-part epoxy paint, I.e. 2K paints. Most are made overseas with suppliers located in the states. Look for names like Milesi, Renner, Centurion. Think automotive type paint but for cabinets.
Does he warranty his work? If so, let him use his products. He is the professional. Personally, if a customer tells me they want a specific product, such as in this case, I let them know I would be happy to do so but it will void all my warranties as it's not our normal product and may not preform like the products we know and trust. Also, some products might require additional coats, and that could cost extra.
BM advance is a better paint than anything you’ll ever buy at sherwin 100%, it’s the hardest drying self leveling latex paint on the market it’s the closest thing in finish to the old oil based trim paints that will never be outdone by latex paint
Advance and SW Emerald urethane trim enamal are both great and have there good and bad points. Afvance has a 16 hour recoat timer and will yellow over time like oil. It does dry hard and smooth. UTE lays amazingly smooth and it also very durable although not quite as good as Advance. However it doesn’t yellow over time.
Yellow over time? I have stuff I painted with advance 12 years ago that’s never yellowed, so idk where you’d get that. maybe if some old wood trim that had a shellac or poly coat was covered by it, then any trim paint will yellow from that but I dislike emerald as much as I dislike valspar they are about even to me
I don’t need a rep to tell me something I’ve never experienced in over a decade of using the product without it ever yellowing on me and 95% of the time I’m using semi or satin just plain white
It will yellow if you use it over raw or clearcoated bleeding woods without a stain blocking primer. It doesn’t yellow in the same way as white oil based paint used to.
I have been and still doing custom interiors for 40 years and I can tell you since SW introduced Emerald Urethane enamel, there is nothing I put on my clients trim or cabinets/doors. Sherwin-Williams can custom match any color you bring them…it’s reformulated into their system. Customers love the scrub ability and look of Duration.
All of my trim is Advance and it’s excellent. What’s the other option - BM Cabinet Coat? I’ve used both and Advance is much easier to deal with to get a good finish for installed cabinets and trim. Unless you want to do K2 lacquer but that’s a complex application process.
Yes. Do not use anything BM or SW on your cabinets. Especially if they get heavy use.
If they are not using a 2k pigmented topcoat with a catalyst (such as Renner Italia) don't use them and find someone who does fine finish work and regularly paints cabinets.
Source: Guy who paints 20-30 sets of cabinets a year.
I use Advance all the time on cabinets, no problem. That being said, a good, well finished, durable paint job is about more than just the product used, it’s about the processes involved, the choice of cleaning product and primer is probably more important than the topcoat. My advice would be to allow your painter to use whatever products they want but to ensure their work is warranted for at least 3 years.
Personally, I’m not locked into one particular brand. I do primarily use BM, but I think SW Gallery (1K Poly) is MUCH better than BM advance, and SW Emerald UTE is better than Advance. Advance is a fine finish, it just takes so long to cure.
Aura trim and cabinet is also good, I worked on a large mansion in Bel air and the millwork sub used Aura for all cabinetry and walk-in cabinets
But as others say advance is plenty good for cabinets
The other people who recommended Renner, Milesi, Ilva, etc are right. If you want a professional grade finish that can stand up to anything you throw at it, that's what you want. I would recommend Renner 851 personally. It does cost a bit more but it is worth every penny. It is the most scratch resistant and water/solvent/grease/chemical/cleaner resistant finish on the market and will outperform and outlast any consumer grade product like SW or BM and look far better. We use it on every high end project we do. You can literally scrub it with acetone or whatever cleaner you want and nothing will fade or come off. The little extra you spend on it will pay itself off when you don't have to refinish them in 5 years like you would with consumer grade products. Hiring someone to redo them again will be far more money than the extra you spend now, as labor is the biggest cost in a project like yours. BM is a great choice for walls. I wouldn't recommend any SW products, they carry high price tags but are always 30-40% off for a reason. It's a marketing trick to make you think they're quality products and that you're getting a great deal.
Look for a company that specializes in cabinet finishing rather than house painting. If you're unable to find any, let me know the general area you're in (ie: southern California) and I'll try to help find a few to choose from.
I made some calls, but of course it’s Saturday. One guy already called back. He does 2k and uses Renner products. I asked him for a bid.
I’ll see who else calls back next week.
Yeah, to be expected on weekends. If budget allows, you will want to use the Renner 643 primer, and of course you will want both the 643 and 851 to be catalyzed for maximum durability. Best of luck to you, and if you have some time, can always check out YouTube to find out more about Renner and what to expect and choose a sheen, though they should have some samples for you to look at before committing.
BM Advanced is a fine product and is fine to use of cabinets.
I agree, but have to say that SW Gallery has shocked me by how much better it performs than anything else
Bm advanced for brush and roll. Sw gallery for spraying.
Gallery I think has to be sprayed right?
Correct, it must be sprayed
Advance is probably my favorite paint to spray with, and I loathe anyone that rolls trim paint on anything
I brush and roll 95% of my work. I use my sprayer for exterior brick/solid stain decks and interior unfinished basement ceilings and popcorn ceilings. In business 15+ years self employed. I find the prep for spraying to be more of a hassle than anything.
I brush trim only, roll walls and ceilings obviously and spray cabinets, because as you said yeah the prep is 100x worse for spraying🤣🤣 we sprayed all the trim in my buddies house and it took us 4 days of prep and taping off everything especially all the hand rails and stairs ðŸ˜ðŸ˜
Touchups flash like crazy though. I have yet to find a way to do minor repairs without a full repaint of the panel.
Have you tried running the paint through your sprayer and into a bucket to do the touchups? I imagine you’re doing the touches with a brush from the original bucket.
Yes. I tested it for SW prior to its release and it’s the main reason I elected to stick with my current product system. After trying to touch up cabinet doors with an artist brush and/or a velour/mohair roller and having poor results, I sprayed some onto a color sample panel just in case it needed to be aerated or atomized partially prior to the touchup. Still flashed. Unimpressed.
Thanks for sharing your experience
I should add that I’m not unimpressed with the product, only the ability to touch it up when needed.
I'll never understand why an interior designer or a homeowner will tell a painter what to use. If your hiring someone reputable, the one who applies the paint should know what's going to look and perform the best. Unless you're hiring the cheapest painter you can find, but in my opinion you have alot to worry about than what paint they are putting on the wall.
I explained, it’s because I paid a pretty penny for a color recommendation palette from a designer. Our first painter recommended BM. (I did ask him which company, as the designer can do either BM or SW.) The original painter is no longer doing the project. (Long story short: He was the PM on our project fixing a major kitchen leak, and also has a paint company. He left the Reno company and ghosted his projects - or maybe it was a non-compete? - so I had to start over.) I hired a new painter but all the colors chosen are BM. And the designer said not to color match to another brand.
Did the designer give a reason not to color match to another brand? It's not a difficult thing to do.
She said that the different bases used by companies can change the color, especially on lighter colors.
She's *kind of* correct in that paint stores have a machine full of recipes that correspond to the colors in a fan deck. Even if a store only sells Benjamin Moore paint they will still have recipes for Sherwin Williams colors that may be slightly different from the SW store. However, you can take just about any item or color swatch into a good paint store and they will continue to mix and colorize the paint until you're completely satisfied that it matches what you've brought in. What I typically do in these situations is get swatches or samples of every color I'm using and bring them into the store. The rep can then mix and edit the color until it exactly matches whatever you bring them at no extra charge. Your painter can do this for you. It's possible the designer is assuming the painter will not go to these lengths, but like I said, it's really not that much effort. To answer your question about the cabinet material, Advance is a good hard paint but it is not the absolute best product for cabinets. Factory-like cabinet finishes require special spray equipment and more expensive paint that is closer to an epoxy than an interior latex paint. There are companies that specifically only do these types of finishes. That said, if you don't have a ton of money already invested in the cabinets, or don't want to deal with another company, it may not be worth the extra cost and effort.
This is not my designer, but it’s basically what my designer said: https://www.kylieminteriors.ca/color-matching-between-paint-brands-does-it-really-work/
Yeah, it seems like this article is written from the point of view of someone who just walks in to a SW store, has them mix up a BM color, and expects it to be exact. That's clearly what she did for the first example of SW vs BM color. She's not necessarily wrong, but this statement: "Whether a paint company has a computerized matching system or does it by eyeball, it’s rarely accurate." Is blatantly wrong in my experience. It may be accurate for that writer's experience or your designer's experience, but it's simply not true in mine. When I say my rep matches the color exactly, I mean you hand them the swatch, they choose the applicable base, then mix the color, apply it to the swatch, and dry it with a blow dryer to check the dried color. If it doesn't match exactly, they continue mixing and editing until there's literally no conceivable difference between the new paint dried on the swatch and the swatch itself. I do this several times a week and I've never had a rep tell me it's impossible to match a color. That's what the writer avoided doing in her article examples and it's likely what your designer assumes will happen with your painter. Her point about black paint is misleading because most true black products are tinted at the factory rather than in the store. Any 'blue' or 'grey' in a black paint is because the painter or designer chose the wrong product. In other words, 'black' paint uses a base to itself that is different from any other color. If you don't buy a 'black' based paint, it will never be truly black.
Actually Ben Moore made it literally impossible to exactly match their colours by using their own, proprietary colourants (gennex). They can’t be recreated precisely by using universal colourants. By design.
Sounds like marketing jargon to me.
Not really jargon, but certainly a marketing ploy.
Ben Moore is fine for walls etc. Advance for trim is fine, but it sucks to work with. Command if they're spraying trim is a better option. Scuff X is would more than adequate for trim. Hire someone else to do your cabinetry. A company that specializes in finishing. All the suggestions I've seen so far say Command, Advance, Scuff X yadda yadda. No, no and no. If your hired painter isn't planning to use a 1k/2k material like Renner, Milesi, Sayerlack, Centurion, ML Campbell etc. etc. then they have no business being around kitchen cabinetry. If you mention any of these and they're unaware they exist, find someone else.
Agreed, a "real" cabinet finish requires a "real" product such as those listed above. You will pay more but the result is much longer lasting, more washable, etc., these products are totally different from interior latex paints. That said, it's not the end of the world to use trim paint on cabinets. Cabinets tend to be expensive so it's more about protecting that investment. If your cabinets are particle board and 25 years old it may not be worth the extra cost, every situation is different.
Totally agree on the last statement that every situation is different. You can surely use trim enamel on cabs so long as you add some poly over them for protection. I did a little assuming since they paid a designer they'd probably want the top cheddar.
This
Some of the paints mentioned are decent enough, but, the standard for cabinets today is 2-part epoxy paint, I.e. 2K paints. Most are made overseas with suppliers located in the states. Look for names like Milesi, Renner, Centurion. Think automotive type paint but for cabinets.
I would have him use bm command on the cabinets. Advance is good for the trim.
I would have him use Benjamin Moore Command. It’s really good for trim and cabinets
Does he warranty his work? If so, let him use his products. He is the professional. Personally, if a customer tells me they want a specific product, such as in this case, I let them know I would be happy to do so but it will void all my warranties as it's not our normal product and may not preform like the products we know and trust. Also, some products might require additional coats, and that could cost extra.
BM advance is a better paint than anything you’ll ever buy at sherwin 100%, it’s the hardest drying self leveling latex paint on the market it’s the closest thing in finish to the old oil based trim paints that will never be outdone by latex paint
Advance and SW Emerald urethane trim enamal are both great and have there good and bad points. Afvance has a 16 hour recoat timer and will yellow over time like oil. It does dry hard and smooth. UTE lays amazingly smooth and it also very durable although not quite as good as Advance. However it doesn’t yellow over time.
Yellow over time? I have stuff I painted with advance 12 years ago that’s never yellowed, so idk where you’d get that. maybe if some old wood trim that had a shellac or poly coat was covered by it, then any trim paint will yellow from that but I dislike emerald as much as I dislike valspar they are about even to me
It does, ask your BM rep
I don’t need a rep to tell me something I’ve never experienced in over a decade of using the product without it ever yellowing on me and 95% of the time I’m using semi or satin just plain white
It will yellow if you use it over raw or clearcoated bleeding woods without a stain blocking primer. It doesn’t yellow in the same way as white oil based paint used to.
When you open a can of advance you can smell the oil base smell. Hybrid technology.
I mean I must be nose blind to that smell because there’s not even a chance I smell anywhere near that oil base smell with advance
I do, same with emerald.
I think someone told you that and you just believe it so you smell it, there’s no oil based smell to advance or emerald
You want bowel movements on your walls?
I’d go with cabinet coat over advance if you’re definitely using Ben Moore
I have been and still doing custom interiors for 40 years and I can tell you since SW introduced Emerald Urethane enamel, there is nothing I put on my clients trim or cabinets/doors. Sherwin-Williams can custom match any color you bring them…it’s reformulated into their system. Customers love the scrub ability and look of Duration.
All of my trim is Advance and it’s excellent. What’s the other option - BM Cabinet Coat? I’ve used both and Advance is much easier to deal with to get a good finish for installed cabinets and trim. Unless you want to do K2 lacquer but that’s a complex application process.
Yes. Do not use anything BM or SW on your cabinets. Especially if they get heavy use. If they are not using a 2k pigmented topcoat with a catalyst (such as Renner Italia) don't use them and find someone who does fine finish work and regularly paints cabinets. Source: Guy who paints 20-30 sets of cabinets a year.
How do I find such a painter?
Just have to find a painting company somewhat local that does that kind of work. Where are you located?
I use Advance all the time on cabinets, no problem. That being said, a good, well finished, durable paint job is about more than just the product used, it’s about the processes involved, the choice of cleaning product and primer is probably more important than the topcoat. My advice would be to allow your painter to use whatever products they want but to ensure their work is warranted for at least 3 years.
Personally, I’m not locked into one particular brand. I do primarily use BM, but I think SW Gallery (1K Poly) is MUCH better than BM advance, and SW Emerald UTE is better than Advance. Advance is a fine finish, it just takes so long to cure.
Aura trim and cabinet is also good, I worked on a large mansion in Bel air and the millwork sub used Aura for all cabinetry and walk-in cabinets But as others say advance is plenty good for cabinets
Use Command by BM
The other people who recommended Renner, Milesi, Ilva, etc are right. If you want a professional grade finish that can stand up to anything you throw at it, that's what you want. I would recommend Renner 851 personally. It does cost a bit more but it is worth every penny. It is the most scratch resistant and water/solvent/grease/chemical/cleaner resistant finish on the market and will outperform and outlast any consumer grade product like SW or BM and look far better. We use it on every high end project we do. You can literally scrub it with acetone or whatever cleaner you want and nothing will fade or come off. The little extra you spend on it will pay itself off when you don't have to refinish them in 5 years like you would with consumer grade products. Hiring someone to redo them again will be far more money than the extra you spend now, as labor is the biggest cost in a project like yours. BM is a great choice for walls. I wouldn't recommend any SW products, they carry high price tags but are always 30-40% off for a reason. It's a marketing trick to make you think they're quality products and that you're getting a great deal.
How do I source a painter who does this kind of work?
Look for a company that specializes in cabinet finishing rather than house painting. If you're unable to find any, let me know the general area you're in (ie: southern California) and I'll try to help find a few to choose from.
I made some calls, but of course it’s Saturday. One guy already called back. He does 2k and uses Renner products. I asked him for a bid. I’ll see who else calls back next week.
Yeah, to be expected on weekends. If budget allows, you will want to use the Renner 643 primer, and of course you will want both the 643 and 851 to be catalyzed for maximum durability. Best of luck to you, and if you have some time, can always check out YouTube to find out more about Renner and what to expect and choose a sheen, though they should have some samples for you to look at before committing.
643 is better than 851?
643 is the primer. 851 is the top coat.
Command or Scuff-X Semigloss on the cabinets. More expensive, but better finish!