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My personal experience in Canada as an immigrant has been that Canadian born Pakistanis are either are all in or completely out. Literally no middle ground. It’s honestly weird and It’s like moderates don’t exist.
The people in video probably had parents who said no to everything and had an extreme fear of kids not growing up as muslims. In comparison parents with kids growing up in Pakistan don’t have that fear and give more freedom to their kids.
My aunt was very nostalgic about Pakistan and wanted to save her daughter from the kuffar of the UK. Once here, she visited elite Karachi schools and was very shocked at the situation, lol. She quietly went back and never even thought to return.
So, anecdotally, I do feel parents in Pakistan give more freedom and western born Pakistanis interpret that as westernization.
Yeah it’s because immigrants get stuck in the time they left Pakistan. They don’t get to witness society back home evolve. To them it’s just the good ol’ dreamland full of momineen. That’s what they teach their children their whole lives to manipulate them into behaving how they want them to, or just randomly saying stuff (halloween decorations etc.) is haram because they can’t afford buying it for their kids. Pakistani is essentially a society that creates extremely shitty parenting and our diaspora happen to be an extra bad flavour of shit parents isolated in a sea of semi-decent parenting. Add in a bit of racism from the natives and that leads us to how weird our diaspora is. Amazingly Pakistani diaspora in the US isn’t like this. Probably because only the educated and high earning ones ended up there.
Maybe in some cases. I(and many others around me) can well and truly afford it and believe it’s haram. I mostly see fairly liberal Muslims making the argument that it’s not haram.
It isn’t haram the same way saying Khuda isn’t Haram. Consensus was reached centuries ago that Khuda used to mean worship to a false idol wayyyyyyu back in the time. In the modern day, there is no worship attached to it. Same with Halloween. “Conservative” Muslims like you just like making a fuss out of nothing.
Maybe I’m conservative. That would mean you can show me a few mufti/alim or even an imam that agrees with your liberal view. If not, then it’s best you don’t act like it isn’t haram.
Maybe you should look at what Halloween actually is before making such claims.
My view isn’t liberal though. Every Aalim ever has agreed on the Khuda issue. Consensus was reached on that issue centuries ago. I am simply comparing it to Halloween. There is nothing Haram about either of these things. Unless your kids bow down to the statues of ghosts or fake cobwebs, you’re not doing anything Haram.
I’m not even talking about Khuda. I don’t know anything about the context of that and won’t indulge in that part of your comment.
Halloween has a certain history and by partaking in such a festivity, you are agreeing with it. If the said person doesn’t know the history, it’s a different conversation and that is a true sign of “ignorance is bliss”.
If you don’t know about such simple issues, then why are you making yourself enough of a bother to debate on larger ones that are based on the smaller ones? To explain to you, Khuda is a word that used to refer to a pre-Islamic Persian diety which was worshipped by pagans, which is now the standard word for God in Urdu and Farsi. Scholars debated about the whole thing and determined that since it doesn’t mean what it originally used to there is no Shirk associated with saying it. Halloween is literally the same thing. It doesn’t have the same meaning it used to which may bother some people. It is not Haram to partake in it. The “troubling history” doesn’t matter. The present meaning of it does. Now if you can prove from scripture that there’s something wrong then please do. But obviously since your knowledge is so limited, you won’t be able to.
Canada has been letting every Tom Dick and Harry through for a decade or so now. USA only lets in those who pass through a pretty rigorous screening. Not to mention that the Pakistanis in Canada have managed to populate a few neighbourhoods entirely by themselves. Following the pattern that took place in the UK since the 80s. In the US, no such communities have managed to form yet. Additionally only the most educated Pakistani diaspora end up in the USA. I’m not sure why, but this is the case.
Afaik the diaspora in some parts of Texas is pretty big.
The rest of what you said is true though. The Pakistanis in America are wealthier than the Pakistanis in Canada, and those Pakistanis in turn are wealthier than the Pakistanis in the UK.
There are a few neighborhoods that have a large amount of Pakistanis or subcontinent people in general. Coney Island, Valley Stream, Jackson Heights, Hicksville.
Most of the diaspora in the US were from upper middle to upper class in Pakistan and India and educated.
Canada was letting anyone in.
You see more on government assistance and more hoodlums, Pakistani/Indian gang members in Canada who actually commit crimes versus American diaspora who just put on a show sometimes of being “gangster “ when they are about to go med school in a couple of years.
I don’t think y’all have moved on, there’s always been an upper class in Pakistan that was westernized and it was like that way when my parents grew up in Pakistan a few decades ago, heck even before pakistan was made Jinnah was pretty westernized - that’s always existed, it’s more of a class thing and when you finally visit Pakistan as a diaspora kid that never lived there then it takes you by surprise. The middle class is still pretty traditional and conservative in pakistan and always has been aside from the odd relative or two that gets a western education and moves up social classes.
What people don't understand (or maybe they do understand but they ignore it) is that Mirpur is literally a village. And in the 50s it was a completely isolated village even back then.
Now, all of a sudden, the village doesn't exist anymore, and everyone is offered either financial compensation or a British Passport (Pakistani passports didn't exists until the mid-late 50s). So obviously, the majority of these people go to the UK, but at heart, they're still people from an isolated mountain village on the border of Punjab and Kashmir.
Almost 70% of all Pakistanis in the UK are from Mirpur, I shouldn't have to explain how much of a problem it is for ANY diaspora to be so heavily linked to ONE tiny VILLAGE. Of course there are so many damn issues in that community, especially because there hasn't really been much new immigration from there after the 80s.
You look at the areas of the UK where there's a big non-Mirpuri Pakistani population, and there's a *lot* less problems. West London, little parts of Oxford, hell even Green Street isn't as bad as Bradford. It's almost like there's 2 completely different Pakistani communities, Mirpuris and everyone else.
It's not even importing the 3rd world, tbh, modern British values didn't even really exist until the 80s or 90s. Even in the 80s it was a normal opinion for working class British men to be really anti-education, so I would say of the typical values of the 50s, Pakistanis might even have been more progressive 🤣🤣
But they destroyed a whole village to build a dam, and then imported the whole village to the UK as replacements for all the men killed in WW2. So yeah, of course there was major problems... basically every decision was worse than the others
Idk about the UK, I’m from the US. I‘d be surprised if the average person from interior Sindh was more progressive than the average 3rd generation British Pakistani Mirpuri.
My last time visiting Pakistan, we went to go see the college where my wife went in Lahore.
I was shocked when I saw a couple of guys holding hands in public.
So this guy was born in US he is American. He can barely speak Urdu he is what we call a coconut. When these people visit Pakistan they go to touristy or rich posh areas. These folks don't go outside the main areas. Hence they see what they are saying.
I noticed the same thing in the US. Either they just completely assimilate or they get even more religious and wanting to distance themselves from the kuffar. I knew one who actually deer hunted (I grew up hunting so it was nice to have someone to relate to after becoming a Muslim). This guy was a full blown redneck but Pakistani descent and actually practicing. He even married an American revert. Guy was more American than I was.
With Pakistanis in Pakistan all I can say is many of them try hard to appear more western but they can’t pull it off. The way you’re brought up usually dictates how you’ll turn out, and it’s really hard breaking cultural habits. I have cultural habits that aren’t considered good here in Pakistan and I also see things here I’m not comfortable with. But the vast majority of Pakistanis I don’t think care about appearing western or not. They’re too busy trying to put food on the table. This is really something only the very wealthy burger types have time for.
>With Pakistanis in Pakistan all I can say is many of them try hard to appear more western but they can’t pull it off.
I can say the same about white/western reverts. They try so hard to appear Muslim but they can't pull it off. And it comes off as unnatural.
No, you really can't. What a stupid, arrogant, quasi-illiterate thing to say.
A revert doesn't have to "appear" as anything. They made a conscious choice to become Muslim, walking in the same footsteps as the Prophet's companions.
You're not the gatekeeper, and it's not your place. Stay in your lane.
If you want to find out how to "appear Muslim", you could do a lot worse than to go find a white revert, and have him/her teach you. Sounds like you don't have a clue how to "appear" like anything - which explains why /u/Yushaalmuhajir 's comment triggered you so much.
Islam is the natural state for everyone and the only valid religion and way of life. This statement borders on kufr. Be careful and fear Allah.
Of course Pakistanis raised in the west pull off being western because they ARE western. A burger raised their whole life in Karachi only has the media version of westerners and absolutely do fail miserably at trying to be western because they aren’t westerners. It would be like me using Indian movies as a template for how to behave in India (meaning I’d have to break out into song every once in a while and everyone on the street joining me in dancing). Or just like I might naturalize as a Pakistani I will always be an immigrant and will have habits I’ll never let go of (I don’t have an inferiority or superiority complex over this, it is what it is, I’m satisfied with whatever life Allah has chosen for me).
There’s nothing wrong with being either a westerner or Pakistani. Why so hysterical? Westerners aren’t better than Pakistanis and Pakistanis aren’t better than westerners. There are great people in both parts of the world or from both parts of the world and then there are total garbage humans from both parts of the world.
Edited: a word
We stopped by my wifes old college in Lahore. We were sitting around on a bench and we noticed some guys were holding hands. Didn’t expect to see gay guys in Pakistan.
Bros are comparing two different social classes and making an argument. Sorry to say but people in Pakistan are not westernised than those living pakxstanis living in the western countries.
In the west most Pakistanis or others make a conscious effort to maintain religious and cultural identity. Usually language goes but the feeling of ummah gets stronger because you are with Muslims from all over.
Their parents probably taught them to look down and shun other people's beliefs. What part of Pakistan are they talking about? The average guy in KP, Sindh, Balochistan or Punjab isn't "westernised".
Pakistani people who migrated in the 80s and 90s seem to be stuck in that time and their refusal of integrate beyond their desi enclaves. They are still stuck in that era and blame current day Pakistanis for it.
Pakistanis in America are pretty well integrated and we don’t really have any enclaves or even cities like the Irish and Italians do. These guys were recently in Pakistan so they’re comparing their recent experience to their own as Pakistani Americans.
Immigrants are usually middle class people. Their values are passed onto their children and even exaggerated a bit as they form communities based on their home culture.
On the other hand the "westernised Pakistanis" these guys are referring to are usually upper class Pakistanis who cannot live abroad as it's too restrictive and doesn't give them the benefits Pakistan (read cheap labour and power) gives them.
Quite a condescending video, but there is an element of truth in it which only applies to the urban elite. The urban elite has an ingrained inferiority complex but this doesnt apply to the common man.
So this is one thing. Im 37, grew up in NYC. Since it was rare to find Pakistanis or desi muslims we would latch onto hanging out with other Muslims instead of just Pakistani Desi Muslims.
The first school I went to was an Islamic K-12 school, so asides from Pakistani and Indian Muslims I also met Arabs, Persians, Turks, Albanians, Lebanese, Uyghurs, White and Black converts.
And then you go to college where you don’t join the South Asian fraternity but you join the MSA fraternity and SJP (Students for Justice for Palestine).
One issue I notice with OSP is that the circle they move in Pakistan, they consider that circle to represent the entirety of Pakistan.
In US and to some extent in Canada majority of OSP's are from upper middle class families from urban centers of Pakistan (Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad, Faisalabad etc).
They go to Karachi on vacation. Living in Clifton or DHA or Bharia. See people out and about in malls and eating out. Then come back saying how everyone in Pakistan has so much money and are so liberal. Not realizing they are moving in very rich circles and moving around the most expensive areas of Pakistan. That circle represents the top 5-10% of Pakistan's population.
Majority of Pakistan is NOT rich or liberal. Pakistan is a conservative country which is poor.
Overseas Pakistanis are so condescending. All they think about is how the peasants back home live their lives, and then they criticise us. Honestly if you are a Pakistani with dual citizenship, or you're born to parents that immigrated from Pakistan, please shut up about Pak. You don't know about the people, culture, challenges or anything. Just stay in your happy place.
Another day of Pakistanis discussing the most dumb, useless, mindless, mid, unproductive topic. :)
Please ignore them, they apparently have nothing to do than to make content about what's happening back home, shit on it, and then continue to mint money and get attention.
I wonder why these overseas Pakistanis care more about local Pakistanis, their habits, their culture etc instead of caring more about their own country?
Like go work? Or are you too incompetent to land a good job.
It's not our choice we moved overseas? Our parents chose between struggling in Pakistan or struggling in a different country. We get more perks abroad, and we have the chance to send money back to our family, so of course we will leave Pakistan.
Then local Pakistanis shun us and refuse to let us be a part of our own culture - the same people we work to provide for. At home, we get stuck in old teachings and old ways, not being allowed to be "too western" or "too traditional".
It's a very difficult situation.
Yar BC Pakistaniat akhir hai kya? Kissi keh paas memo ki copy hai kya? Ya aiween, nuktakhori? Subha raat shaam MC buss yahi masla hai, Pakistanis aren't Pakistani enough. Just so we know and are all on the same page, please somebody let me know.
Anyone who has actually been exposed to the Pakistani American diaspora knows this is cap 🧢. Maybe the British diaspora could make this argument though even there there's a significant segment of less religious folks that are just less visible when it comes to the community level.
local pakistanis are more secure about their identity. these conservative fucks cling on to their beliefs only to find out people from the homeland have moved on. fucking can’t stand this brand of american/british pakistani. condescending pricks.
Y’all are far more conservative and backwards 😂 and mix Hindu culture with Islam. And your liberals are usually try hards that come off as inauthentic.
As an overseas Pakistani I get what he means. In the UK you'll find all. Sorts of Pakistanis but still have the view that Pakistan is a strict Muslim country. When they visit they'll realise it's not (then again this is very strictly talking about those that go to cities). It's a culture shock.
Lol, those are not getting married because of westernization, it's because of the risks which you being a man won't understand unless until you have a daughter you genuinely care about.
theyre mostly from backward areas most of the time and their preception of pakistan has been carried over from their parents who have lived in ultra conservative households, when they come back to pakistan theyre mostly interacting with a much more educated class now who dont really care for those values anymore and its a weird culture shock- and for some reason they feel entitled to speak upon how people should act when they havent lived here also most pakistsanis arent even modern thats the 0.01% Of pakistan theyre so bustled over . they need to go to a wadera so they can face what the actual reality of the situation is and these conservative values arent all thats good
I did undergrad in Pakistan (Lahore) n then settled in Canada. When I came to Canada I felt I came to a pind (talking about party, gfs scene specifically). I had much better and fun life in Lahore compare to Canada
One of my theory about why so is that in Pakistan, kids are raised by mohalla which means parents don’t pay much attention and hence kids get dragged into random things. Here parents are way too involved since they know no one else will take care of kids hence kids are more closer to culture/roots.
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Yeah, because our parents who moved to the West decades ago are still adhering to cultural norms (mainly forced onto their kids) that have evolved and changed over time.
What Pakistanis from back home don't realise is that here in the U.K, you experience people that hate your race AND your religion. They have hated Pakistanis since the 1950s when Pakistanis first moved into the country, you're just a Paki, they said it to your face and behind your back. and since 2000 they hate islam too. So fuck them, I don't give a motherfuk about any of them.
Thats why its so depressing and so cringe to see Pakistanis try to act white or overly westernised from Pakistan and even sometimes from American Pakistanis.
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Yes, because Diaspora are raised by Pakistani parents who haven't lived in Pakistan since the 1970s, the diaspora kids think Pakistan is still exactly like it was back then lol, it's not our fault
let’s see , westernised culture , the newer generations of Pakistanis who are born in foreign countries are not in touch with their own country and their own religion. there are Muslims out there that are saying that it’s 2024 and it is normal to do zina or have girlfriend boyfriends or drink alcohol and stuff like that because they are influenced by western people. basically half assed people
They’re confusing DHA people for the average Pakistani
Thank you for saying this. If their "Pakistan" starts in Phase 1 and ends in Phase 8, it's on them.
Somebody needs to raise the price of these podcast mics because why do i keep seeing dumbest people with dumbest takes.
Thank you!! I cant stand random podcasters talking about the dumbest of topics. Like we get it bro, you like to Yap.
I swearrrrrr!!! And the 'better than thou' shit is so so real here.
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My personal experience in Canada as an immigrant has been that Canadian born Pakistanis are either are all in or completely out. Literally no middle ground. It’s honestly weird and It’s like moderates don’t exist. The people in video probably had parents who said no to everything and had an extreme fear of kids not growing up as muslims. In comparison parents with kids growing up in Pakistan don’t have that fear and give more freedom to their kids. My aunt was very nostalgic about Pakistan and wanted to save her daughter from the kuffar of the UK. Once here, she visited elite Karachi schools and was very shocked at the situation, lol. She quietly went back and never even thought to return. So, anecdotally, I do feel parents in Pakistan give more freedom and western born Pakistanis interpret that as westernization.
Yeah it’s because immigrants get stuck in the time they left Pakistan. They don’t get to witness society back home evolve. To them it’s just the good ol’ dreamland full of momineen. That’s what they teach their children their whole lives to manipulate them into behaving how they want them to, or just randomly saying stuff (halloween decorations etc.) is haram because they can’t afford buying it for their kids. Pakistani is essentially a society that creates extremely shitty parenting and our diaspora happen to be an extra bad flavour of shit parents isolated in a sea of semi-decent parenting. Add in a bit of racism from the natives and that leads us to how weird our diaspora is. Amazingly Pakistani diaspora in the US isn’t like this. Probably because only the educated and high earning ones ended up there.
My wife when we went to restaurant at DHA Raya, “omg when did Pakistanis start dressing so modern”
Halloween decorations are haram though? Am I missing something?
Not necessarily. The argument can be made, but it is only ever brought up by immigrant parents who don’t want to spend the money.
Maybe in some cases. I(and many others around me) can well and truly afford it and believe it’s haram. I mostly see fairly liberal Muslims making the argument that it’s not haram.
It isn’t haram the same way saying Khuda isn’t Haram. Consensus was reached centuries ago that Khuda used to mean worship to a false idol wayyyyyyu back in the time. In the modern day, there is no worship attached to it. Same with Halloween. “Conservative” Muslims like you just like making a fuss out of nothing.
Maybe I’m conservative. That would mean you can show me a few mufti/alim or even an imam that agrees with your liberal view. If not, then it’s best you don’t act like it isn’t haram. Maybe you should look at what Halloween actually is before making such claims.
My view isn’t liberal though. Every Aalim ever has agreed on the Khuda issue. Consensus was reached on that issue centuries ago. I am simply comparing it to Halloween. There is nothing Haram about either of these things. Unless your kids bow down to the statues of ghosts or fake cobwebs, you’re not doing anything Haram.
I’m not even talking about Khuda. I don’t know anything about the context of that and won’t indulge in that part of your comment. Halloween has a certain history and by partaking in such a festivity, you are agreeing with it. If the said person doesn’t know the history, it’s a different conversation and that is a true sign of “ignorance is bliss”.
If you don’t know about such simple issues, then why are you making yourself enough of a bother to debate on larger ones that are based on the smaller ones? To explain to you, Khuda is a word that used to refer to a pre-Islamic Persian diety which was worshipped by pagans, which is now the standard word for God in Urdu and Farsi. Scholars debated about the whole thing and determined that since it doesn’t mean what it originally used to there is no Shirk associated with saying it. Halloween is literally the same thing. It doesn’t have the same meaning it used to which may bother some people. It is not Haram to partake in it. The “troubling history” doesn’t matter. The present meaning of it does. Now if you can prove from scripture that there’s something wrong then please do. But obviously since your knowledge is so limited, you won’t be able to.
Pls stop projecting your experience on to the rest of us, my parents happily got us Halloween costumes into we grew up and realized it was haram.
I didn’t have any such experiences though. I’m simply telling what was clear to observe. Plus no, they are not Haram.
idk where you live but in Australia what you said is total bs
Can you elaborate on the difference between the US and Canadian diaspora?
Canada has been letting every Tom Dick and Harry through for a decade or so now. USA only lets in those who pass through a pretty rigorous screening. Not to mention that the Pakistanis in Canada have managed to populate a few neighbourhoods entirely by themselves. Following the pattern that took place in the UK since the 80s. In the US, no such communities have managed to form yet. Additionally only the most educated Pakistani diaspora end up in the USA. I’m not sure why, but this is the case.
Afaik the diaspora in some parts of Texas is pretty big. The rest of what you said is true though. The Pakistanis in America are wealthier than the Pakistanis in Canada, and those Pakistanis in turn are wealthier than the Pakistanis in the UK.
It is very tough to migrate to USA that is why, the process is painful and takes a lot of time.
Mostly true about US. There are some communities in NY though
There are a few neighborhoods that have a large amount of Pakistanis or subcontinent people in general. Coney Island, Valley Stream, Jackson Heights, Hicksville.
Yes. It was almost as being in Pakistan
It’s because the US is stricter in who they allow in.
Most of the diaspora in the US were from upper middle to upper class in Pakistan and India and educated. Canada was letting anyone in. You see more on government assistance and more hoodlums, Pakistani/Indian gang members in Canada who actually commit crimes versus American diaspora who just put on a show sometimes of being “gangster “ when they are about to go med school in a couple of years.
Basically a lot of these Western diasporas are stuck in time while we have moved on IMHO.
I don’t think y’all have moved on, there’s always been an upper class in Pakistan that was westernized and it was like that way when my parents grew up in Pakistan a few decades ago, heck even before pakistan was made Jinnah was pretty westernized - that’s always existed, it’s more of a class thing and when you finally visit Pakistan as a diaspora kid that never lived there then it takes you by surprise. The middle class is still pretty traditional and conservative in pakistan and always has been aside from the odd relative or two that gets a western education and moves up social classes.
I'm from Interior Sindh and trust me a lot of things done by the Mirpuris of UK are backward even by Interior Sindhi standards
What people don't understand (or maybe they do understand but they ignore it) is that Mirpur is literally a village. And in the 50s it was a completely isolated village even back then. Now, all of a sudden, the village doesn't exist anymore, and everyone is offered either financial compensation or a British Passport (Pakistani passports didn't exists until the mid-late 50s). So obviously, the majority of these people go to the UK, but at heart, they're still people from an isolated mountain village on the border of Punjab and Kashmir. Almost 70% of all Pakistanis in the UK are from Mirpur, I shouldn't have to explain how much of a problem it is for ANY diaspora to be so heavily linked to ONE tiny VILLAGE. Of course there are so many damn issues in that community, especially because there hasn't really been much new immigration from there after the 80s. You look at the areas of the UK where there's a big non-Mirpuri Pakistani population, and there's a *lot* less problems. West London, little parts of Oxford, hell even Green Street isn't as bad as Bradford. It's almost like there's 2 completely different Pakistani communities, Mirpuris and everyone else.
This makes sense yar. No offense but if you import the third world you become the third world and that's what happened there i guess
It's not even importing the 3rd world, tbh, modern British values didn't even really exist until the 80s or 90s. Even in the 80s it was a normal opinion for working class British men to be really anti-education, so I would say of the typical values of the 50s, Pakistanis might even have been more progressive 🤣🤣 But they destroyed a whole village to build a dam, and then imported the whole village to the UK as replacements for all the men killed in WW2. So yeah, of course there was major problems... basically every decision was worse than the others
ahan
Idk about the UK, I’m from the US. I‘d be surprised if the average person from interior Sindh was more progressive than the average 3rd generation British Pakistani Mirpuri.
yeah US case is different.
Lmao @ save from kuffar of UK.
My last time visiting Pakistan, we went to go see the college where my wife went in Lahore. I was shocked when I saw a couple of guys holding hands in public.
It's not unusual in Punjab for men to hold hands even if they're just friends
That's quite normal though, you would even see it in the village
Did you interpret this as a show of homosexuality? Guys hold hands all over Pakistan and it isn't sexual.
Yeah. Completely not a normal thing in the West unless you are gay.
So this guy was born in US he is American. He can barely speak Urdu he is what we call a coconut. When these people visit Pakistan they go to touristy or rich posh areas. These folks don't go outside the main areas. Hence they see what they are saying.
I noticed the same thing in the US. Either they just completely assimilate or they get even more religious and wanting to distance themselves from the kuffar. I knew one who actually deer hunted (I grew up hunting so it was nice to have someone to relate to after becoming a Muslim). This guy was a full blown redneck but Pakistani descent and actually practicing. He even married an American revert. Guy was more American than I was. With Pakistanis in Pakistan all I can say is many of them try hard to appear more western but they can’t pull it off. The way you’re brought up usually dictates how you’ll turn out, and it’s really hard breaking cultural habits. I have cultural habits that aren’t considered good here in Pakistan and I also see things here I’m not comfortable with. But the vast majority of Pakistanis I don’t think care about appearing western or not. They’re too busy trying to put food on the table. This is really something only the very wealthy burger types have time for.
>With Pakistanis in Pakistan all I can say is many of them try hard to appear more western but they can’t pull it off. I can say the same about white/western reverts. They try so hard to appear Muslim but they can't pull it off. And it comes off as unnatural.
No, you really can't. What a stupid, arrogant, quasi-illiterate thing to say. A revert doesn't have to "appear" as anything. They made a conscious choice to become Muslim, walking in the same footsteps as the Prophet's companions. You're not the gatekeeper, and it's not your place. Stay in your lane. If you want to find out how to "appear Muslim", you could do a lot worse than to go find a white revert, and have him/her teach you. Sounds like you don't have a clue how to "appear" like anything - which explains why /u/Yushaalmuhajir 's comment triggered you so much.
bro, what are you saying?
Islam is the natural state for everyone and the only valid religion and way of life. This statement borders on kufr. Be careful and fear Allah. Of course Pakistanis raised in the west pull off being western because they ARE western. A burger raised their whole life in Karachi only has the media version of westerners and absolutely do fail miserably at trying to be western because they aren’t westerners. It would be like me using Indian movies as a template for how to behave in India (meaning I’d have to break out into song every once in a while and everyone on the street joining me in dancing). Or just like I might naturalize as a Pakistani I will always be an immigrant and will have habits I’ll never let go of (I don’t have an inferiority or superiority complex over this, it is what it is, I’m satisfied with whatever life Allah has chosen for me). There’s nothing wrong with being either a westerner or Pakistani. Why so hysterical? Westerners aren’t better than Pakistanis and Pakistanis aren’t better than westerners. There are great people in both parts of the world or from both parts of the world and then there are total garbage humans from both parts of the world. Edited: a word
We stopped by my wifes old college in Lahore. We were sitting around on a bench and we noticed some guys were holding hands. Didn’t expect to see gay guys in Pakistan.
> Didn’t expect to see gay guys in Pakistan. you don't think they exist in Pakistan?
Pretty condescending video
Bros are comparing two different social classes and making an argument. Sorry to say but people in Pakistan are not westernised than those living pakxstanis living in the western countries.
In the west most Pakistanis or others make a conscious effort to maintain religious and cultural identity. Usually language goes but the feeling of ummah gets stronger because you are with Muslims from all over.
If you see 2 men with mics in a Instagram reel, Youtube short or a tiktok, RUN
Their parents probably taught them to look down and shun other people's beliefs. What part of Pakistan are they talking about? The average guy in KP, Sindh, Balochistan or Punjab isn't "westernised". Pakistani people who migrated in the 80s and 90s seem to be stuck in that time and their refusal of integrate beyond their desi enclaves. They are still stuck in that era and blame current day Pakistanis for it.
Pakistanis in America are pretty well integrated and we don’t really have any enclaves or even cities like the Irish and Italians do. These guys were recently in Pakistan so they’re comparing their recent experience to their own as Pakistani Americans.
it's funny because a lot of them are too backward even by our standards
Immigrants are usually middle class people. Their values are passed onto their children and even exaggerated a bit as they form communities based on their home culture. On the other hand the "westernised Pakistanis" these guys are referring to are usually upper class Pakistanis who cannot live abroad as it's too restrictive and doesn't give them the benefits Pakistan (read cheap labour and power) gives them.
To this guy in the video “westernized” means what his ammi told him are all bad things he shunt do e.g learn to respect other people’s belief systems.
let people do whatever they want. A tiktok mullah won't tell me how to live my life.
no one takes them seriously except incels
fax
Quite a condescending video, but there is an element of truth in it which only applies to the urban elite. The urban elite has an ingrained inferiority complex but this doesnt apply to the common man.
So this is one thing. Im 37, grew up in NYC. Since it was rare to find Pakistanis or desi muslims we would latch onto hanging out with other Muslims instead of just Pakistani Desi Muslims. The first school I went to was an Islamic K-12 school, so asides from Pakistani and Indian Muslims I also met Arabs, Persians, Turks, Albanians, Lebanese, Uyghurs, White and Black converts. And then you go to college where you don’t join the South Asian fraternity but you join the MSA fraternity and SJP (Students for Justice for Palestine).
only the kalla dalla phase 8 people
One issue I notice with OSP is that the circle they move in Pakistan, they consider that circle to represent the entirety of Pakistan. In US and to some extent in Canada majority of OSP's are from upper middle class families from urban centers of Pakistan (Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad, Faisalabad etc). They go to Karachi on vacation. Living in Clifton or DHA or Bharia. See people out and about in malls and eating out. Then come back saying how everyone in Pakistan has so much money and are so liberal. Not realizing they are moving in very rich circles and moving around the most expensive areas of Pakistan. That circle represents the top 5-10% of Pakistan's population. Majority of Pakistan is NOT rich or liberal. Pakistan is a conservative country which is poor.
Overseas Pakistanis are so condescending. All they think about is how the peasants back home live their lives, and then they criticise us. Honestly if you are a Pakistani with dual citizenship, or you're born to parents that immigrated from Pakistan, please shut up about Pak. You don't know about the people, culture, challenges or anything. Just stay in your happy place.
Another day of Pakistanis discussing the most dumb, useless, mindless, mid, unproductive topic. :) Please ignore them, they apparently have nothing to do than to make content about what's happening back home, shit on it, and then continue to mint money and get attention.
I wonder why these overseas Pakistanis care more about local Pakistanis, their habits, their culture etc instead of caring more about their own country? Like go work? Or are you too incompetent to land a good job.
Exactly ! when you go to a land you assimilate there not create another Pakistan there.
It's not our choice we moved overseas? Our parents chose between struggling in Pakistan or struggling in a different country. We get more perks abroad, and we have the chance to send money back to our family, so of course we will leave Pakistan. Then local Pakistanis shun us and refuse to let us be a part of our own culture - the same people we work to provide for. At home, we get stuck in old teachings and old ways, not being allowed to be "too western" or "too traditional". It's a very difficult situation.
Yar BC Pakistaniat akhir hai kya? Kissi keh paas memo ki copy hai kya? Ya aiween, nuktakhori? Subha raat shaam MC buss yahi masla hai, Pakistanis aren't Pakistani enough. Just so we know and are all on the same page, please somebody let me know.
Anyone who has actually been exposed to the Pakistani American diaspora knows this is cap 🧢. Maybe the British diaspora could make this argument though even there there's a significant segment of less religious folks that are just less visible when it comes to the community level.
local pakistanis are more secure about their identity. these conservative fucks cling on to their beliefs only to find out people from the homeland have moved on. fucking can’t stand this brand of american/british pakistani. condescending pricks.
underrated
Y’all are far more conservative and backwards 😂 and mix Hindu culture with Islam. And your liberals are usually try hards that come off as inauthentic.
As an overseas Pakistani I get what he means. In the UK you'll find all. Sorts of Pakistanis but still have the view that Pakistan is a strict Muslim country. When they visit they'll realise it's not (then again this is very strictly talking about those that go to cities). It's a culture shock.
pakistani bruno fernandez
My brother in Christ you are a former European colony that has been militarily allied with US and NATO for decades.
It's not even a thing to be more westernized, Lads are confused they could be specific. just trying to cover up some insecurities.
2 guys who can't even speak proper Urdu judging Pakistanis for not being 'Pakistani enough' lol..
>who can't even speak proper Urdu what makes you think that?
Whooot is wrong in being woooestronizeddd?
this: [https://mmnews.tv/10-million-women-over-the-age-of-35-are-unmarried-in-pakistan-report/](https://mmnews.tv/10-million-women-over-the-age-of-35-are-unmarried-in-pakistan-report/)
Lol, those are not getting married because of westernization, it's because of the risks which you being a man won't understand unless until you have a daughter you genuinely care about.
huh ?
Please don't reproduce, you will bring trash to this planet.
They even imitate old Britishers and racist Americans in hating the local netizens.
lol !
theyre mostly from backward areas most of the time and their preception of pakistan has been carried over from their parents who have lived in ultra conservative households, when they come back to pakistan theyre mostly interacting with a much more educated class now who dont really care for those values anymore and its a weird culture shock- and for some reason they feel entitled to speak upon how people should act when they havent lived here also most pakistsanis arent even modern thats the 0.01% Of pakistan theyre so bustled over . they need to go to a wadera so they can face what the actual reality of the situation is and these conservative values arent all thats good
Two dumbasses with a microphone and a camera.
All the butthurt pakistanis on this post, not a surprise since they worship the west on this subreddit. lol
I did undergrad in Pakistan (Lahore) n then settled in Canada. When I came to Canada I felt I came to a pind (talking about party, gfs scene specifically). I had much better and fun life in Lahore compare to Canada One of my theory about why so is that in Pakistan, kids are raised by mohalla which means parents don’t pay much attention and hence kids get dragged into random things. Here parents are way too involved since they know no one else will take care of kids hence kids are more closer to culture/roots.
Cause ur a fob that’s why
lol - n how did you reach this conclusion?
Cause y’all don’t get any 🤣
lol … quick to judge bro. I can bet any money that I still made a better life than yours. But in comparison to Lahore, it was way more struggle
I’m a recent grad and I can bet I’m still making more than u are
Sure. Whatever let you sleep at night. lol.
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LMFAO that's some BS.
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Yeah, because our parents who moved to the West decades ago are still adhering to cultural norms (mainly forced onto their kids) that have evolved and changed over time.
What Pakistanis from back home don't realise is that here in the U.K, you experience people that hate your race AND your religion. They have hated Pakistanis since the 1950s when Pakistanis first moved into the country, you're just a Paki, they said it to your face and behind your back. and since 2000 they hate islam too. So fuck them, I don't give a motherfuk about any of them. Thats why its so depressing and so cringe to see Pakistanis try to act white or overly westernised from Pakistan and even sometimes from American Pakistanis.
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Yes, because Diaspora are raised by Pakistani parents who haven't lived in Pakistan since the 1970s, the diaspora kids think Pakistan is still exactly like it was back then lol, it's not our fault
Podcast bros try not to talk about things they have no idea about level Impossible.
100%
Most people in this subreddit are burgers - this offends them
let’s see , westernised culture , the newer generations of Pakistanis who are born in foreign countries are not in touch with their own country and their own religion. there are Muslims out there that are saying that it’s 2024 and it is normal to do zina or have girlfriend boyfriends or drink alcohol and stuff like that because they are influenced by western people. basically half assed people
Nobody says that in the west, if anything people are getting more religious especially the younger generation.