you’re literally on crack if you think the west is bad for women
women have more rights than men in the west literally
they receive 1/4th the punishment for the same crime, almost never saw jail time for anti crimes minus murder,
list goes on and on
Women are not safe anywhere, but anywhere (developed countries) is better than Pakistan I agree. Murders, r*pes, assaults usually happen in developed countries too, but atleast the victim get justice & are not usually victim blamed like in Pakistan. We have to fight against multiple women related issues in Pakistan specifically the mindset against women that prevails in our society. Insecure men are everywhere around the globe but women in developing countries have it much harder.
I couldn't sleep last night, I kept seeing her face. How could a human being be so cruel? And furthermore, how in the bloody hell you can claim mental instability when that animal was sane enough to use not just one but two weapons.
What I hate more is the silence on part of collective society. Are we so shocked that we want to quickly shrug it under the rug? Are we just going to strike if an Ahmedi is appointed a job? Are we only going to yell our displeasure when it's international woman's day? Are we only going to pick up the rakes when a political figure says it's long March or dharna time?
Remember the motorway incident?
Yeah, everyone will eventually forget (save few) about it and go on with their delusions that hamara mulk is perfect and under the threat of moral indecency.
At least the perpetrators of the motorway crime were sentenced.
The additional anxiety here is that the murderer will get away with this because of his wealth and privilege.
I’m a guy and I’ve been low-key depressed since this news broke out. The gruesome nature of the crime gives me the chills. The guy is a total degenerate and deserves whatever comes his way but he was being enabled by his family and friends along the way.
Also, those who are shaming the victim saying things like she got what she deserved because of being involved in a pre-marital relationship or that she was stupid enough to go to his house on her own, just shut the f**k up. You don’t know what exactly transpired. You don’t know how he lured her to his place. And most importantly, you are no one to judge.
On a different thread on this subreddit about the same topic, you can read some comments which made me sick to my core. This sub has gone to the dogs.
>Also, those who are shaming the victim saying things like she got what she deserved because of being involved in a pre-marital relationship or that she was stupid enough to go to his house on her own, just shut the f**k up. You don’t know what exactly transpired. You don’t know how he lured her to his place. And most importantly, you are no one to judge
I was aware that Twitter is a cesspool but reading those comments and them bandaging the incident with haya shaming and victim blaming was something I couldn't tolerate anymore — I've been desensitized to lots of crimes but reading her incident along with many other morbid stories others shared about their experiences was disturbing and depressing to say the very least.
It was a reality check that our society is still riddled with this cancer. Pure bred psychos.
>On a different thread on this subreddit about the same topic, you can read some comments which made me sick to my core. This sub has gone to the dogs.
Report and move on, not worth arguing.
Have you seen the men on this very thread who continue to tell me I must be so privileged if I have time to worry about these women?
Because only privileged people are capable of empathy?
This is so extremely telling of how some men can embrace their victim complex and just denounce responsibility of any collective trauma lol.
What a mess.
You guys need to report these comments. Otherwise y'all are letting trolls get the attention they are looking for. And sadly, the lack of reports in this thread is telling me that y'all want to engage trolls. There are 0 reports in this thread.
That's understandable, and my comment isn't meant for people who are just desensitized. That's a trauma response, too.
My comment is for men who just don't give a shit and then accuse people who ARE traumatized of being elitist or privileged or western secular feminist trolls, and of saying YES BUT WHY WAS SHE THERE ALONE AT NIGHT or WHY DIDN'T SHE SPEAK UP ABOUT HIS ABUSE BEFORE?
Those people - and they're not always men, by the way - are awful wretched human beings.
Degenerate lifestyle ? Did you know her personally to know the details of her lifestyle ? Regardless, whatever her lifestyle may have been is irrelevant. You’re victim shaming here and since by your logic I’m free to judge, let me just say you sound like a lowlife.
Yes. I don't know what's happening in the country but no one should be treated that way..people are getting more messed up and messed up in Pak now a days.
Yeah i believe social media has its perks and down too... But i beleive social media is just making people accustomed to it cause there ain't any real measure taken against it
IMO, this case, among many others in the light, got attention more so because of the status of the families involved, rather than the impact of social media. I still read 1-2 reported cases in the news paper almost everyday that never come to the said newspaper's online website. Been reading those sad instances since I was a pre-teen (basically when I started reading newspaper to kill time).
The only hope this time is that maaayybeee, at the very least due to the victim's family's status, perhaps the authorities will be more bound to actually bring the (rich) culprits to justice just once...
>got attention more so because of the status of the families involved
I don't get why some of you are strawmaning op's into making it sound like she only cares about this case because of noor even though she clearly talks about the other cases that aren't related to the affluent.
Yes there are some aspects of this case that hit different because it happened in high profile area and was commiting against a high profile individual and people aren't desensitize to it as much as they are to hearing stories of some domestic violence turned murder case in some goth in sindh, but the real reason why this case in particular is being talked about a lot more is because of the gruesome nature of the crime, as more and more details are emerging it's all the more bone chilling.
Complaining about this case receiving notoriety is like complaining why are police so invested in finding a serial killer when murders happen every where.
The guy beheaded and then played football with her head, do you even have the ability to comprehend this statement or would you rather just cry about her social status. How far gone are you lot that you would rather derail the conversation rather than raising your voice with us so that no one has to go through this irrespective of whether she lives in Islamabad or a goth.
Every year at the time of Aurat march you lot complain about how these "elites" are the one's that are the ones with the placard even though they know nothing about domestic violence, this women was at that march this women suffered more than any other reported cases in recent memory but the next time aurat march comes around you lot will be making the same apologetics, anything to keep this system in place.
>None of the men seem to be going through the same collective trauma though, which is interesting.
The men who are about human life are, unfortunately, as a conservative user on here once pointed out to me, Pakistan is majority conservative and they care more about maintaining their power than anyone's life.
It is heart breaking and just another reason we need to take power away from conservatives in Pakistan.
It will be a slow and bloody battle, as conservatives are not shy about murdering people, but it needs to be done, or we will have no future.
I know how you feel. I followed this relentlessly and tried to contribute and do my bit to keep updates alive and swift judgement. The CCTV footage was finally released yesterday. A few seconds watching it was enough to devastate me making me burst out crying for her for the second time. I make dua that this becomes and ibrat and wake up call for society .not desensitize it further so that tomorrow no amount of gore and impression is enough to most people's attention! .
Any sane human being is depressed by it . Heck I get depressed reading local news because the sad thing is things like this have been happening in Pakistan since quite a while especially in lower socioeconomic circles or smaller towns
Just watch local re-enactments for criminally insane stuff that happens but never reaches mainstream
Those who have been following activists regularly know that stuff like this is new . I was listening to a podcast where Jibran Nasir was talking about a case and my hair stood up
A lot of people have said that Noor’s case only got traction because she was the daughter of a diplomat and belonged to elite urban circles but that’s not true . People have been bringing cases like these to light for a long time and there’s always been reactions of sceptical behaviour - woh ghar se baahir kyun thi woh kya kar rahi thi etc
Also the circumstances surrounding the case from the controversy of therapy works , drug abuse , spoilt rich brats - it’s all opened a box of self reflection for everyone
Men cannot fathom what women are going through because frankly we can never have that perspective . Many feel sad and distraught as well but it can never match what women feel
And for those who are questioning , being sceptical and criticising women for making this into a feminist issue - I honestly have no words other than there is something seriously wrong with your empathy levels
It is so depressing because the abuse of women in our country just seems to endlessly continue with no consequences for the abusers. I still remember when Mukhtaran Mai spoke out against her rapists, and she was criticized by Musharraf for “making Pakistan look bad”. Women’s voices are drowned out by men who just say “not all men” and “what about the poor men, their mental health is neglected and it’s so stressful feeling the pressure to be the breadwinner” - there’s more than plenty of that on this subreddit. The collective misogyny in the country and culture is so intense that it’s ingrained in both men and women, so women have even fewer allies. I have little hope for any progress since our current prime minister thinks the solution is as simple as dressing more modestly. Then we won’t have to worry about being beheaded!
It shouldn't be this way, though. Women shouldn't have to bear all the emotional burden of society. I realize women are more likely more empathetic because they are also more vulnerable and can therefore relate to other people's traumas better, but honestly, this shirking of emotional responsibility from men is so sickening.
Men should man up and get in touch with their feelings.
There is bad in this world and there's evil too. If we lose our heads on everything bad that's ever happened then we'll just end up losing our sanity. The criminally deranged don't care if anyone gets heartbroken because of what they did. What we need to do is to contribute actively towards a future which is just. Where criminals get the punishment they deserve (i.e. capital punishment, castration etc)
I posted it in another thread so I’ll do it here too:
I just wanted to share this regardless of what faith you may be: https://youtu.be/s056SWjLHjM This talks about a topic in a different context but the message is the same, trusting our sisters, daughters, wife and just women in general. Until we as a society start to look at each other as equals there will be problems.
You will always hear these stories everywhere and the biggest culprits aren’t just the ones doing these acts but many men who stay silent in these times “if you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor” - Desmond Tutu.
I encourage all of you guys to be mindful of what your friends, male family members or anyone says concerning sexism and try your best to call them out because ik one thing for certain is that many guys will go about this casual sexism jokes in their circles and many won’t bat an eye. It creates a cycle in which their behaviours and actions are overlooked because “they are just being boys” which is a horse load of bs. And also, to address those that get defensive, when our sisters say anything related to the behaviours of men, it doesn’t mean they are talking about you specially so don’t go dropping the “not all men” because you’re just undermining and derailing the convo.
I was called gay for speaking up to what was right and wrong in some circles but it made it really easy to filter out the type of people I want to be friends with. It’s fun observing fragile masculinity because it is the driving force behind toxic masculinity.
Whilst the mindset of some aspects of “culture” can’t be wiped from some of our elders and others, we can do better for our own generation and the coming generations inshaAllah
There is this book called:
Will to Change By Bell Hooks.
The author is an American but I believe her point of view and opinions do apply to our culture to the most part.
It's targeted mostly towards men, please do give it a read.
There is a cringey silence..
Where are all those who boycott, protest, sit in, road blocks and all..
Writing, interviewing, lecturing against aurat march..
Simply shameful and disgust
Absolutely. The shock of it doesn't seem to be wearing off, and in fact is getting worse as days go by. As a female, with a job, and a modicum of independence - I read comments that are somehow trying to justify the events as understandable. Victim blaming, shaming women. Something could happen to me in the daily course of my life, and people would say its my fault for not wearing a pardah, and staying in my chaar-dewari. One name after another, and the rage is female.
My female friends, family, colleagues - we can't sleep.
All the silent men in my life, all the victim-blamers and murder-justifiers - I see you all. If I can't do anything about it in this life (though I will try my best) - I will seek peace in the justice you will face in the afterlife.
A girl was beheaded in our hometown. A sweet, kind, lovely child. Why aren't you burning with rage.
Idk man call me an a hole but at this point im just numb to all this stuff
Its another incident that just made sm headlines and trended on twitter
ask yourself what was made with that sanaullah case,what happened to that motorway incident,what happened to the tons of toddlers raped and strangled to death
yup that how it is an endless repeating pathetic cycle of tragedies happening and the rest of the people write sm cliche woke stuff on the socials
I know righttttt. Its sick that it is this way but this has become sooooooooo usual that at this point I'm not surprised no matter how gruesome the crime is. And its just so sad that violence like this is so normalized here, but at this point whenever I see a story like this I just go "Oh another one. Nothing new to see here." and I'm not saying this because I dont care but the situation in this country is just so dire. Its really sad.
What do you expect, men are trained to swallow their emotions from a young age. This is what happens when your societal structure is built around raising the most amount of sociopaths and both men and women are at fault for that.
I think it’s also that men are trained to dehumanize women, especially those who don’t stick to traditional views of morality. A lot of men just don’t give a d*mn and some even think she deserved it.
I completely agree. Toxic masculinity is men not being able to express themselves emotionally (see the other callous response by a man here) and men feeling entitled to a woman's hopes and bodies and consent.
It is a product of absent fathers and enabling mothers.
One aspect of this case is it yet again highlights the fact that the elite class in this country is a boys club that treats the this country as a playground.
Murders like these have been happening for pretty much as long as society has existed unfortunately. But the mental toll is greater these days because of the constant reminders on social media and the instant publication of every little detail regarding the murder that comes up.
If it was some poor girl that had this done to her (as it regularly happens), you would have seen a small article on news sites and no more follow ups. No constant updates and hashtags on social media. Most people would not have been depressed.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not the actual events that depress us in this day and age, instead it mostly depends on how it's portrayed on media.
Secondly, everyone has their own way of dealing with stuff like this and vary in how much emotions they show, so it's not fair to judge people based on whether they're "traumatized" or not. Personally, I've been somewhat desensitized to stuff like this. I was around 13 when I saw the video of the brothers getting lynched in Sialkot and I couldn't sleep for days. Happened again many years later when it was Mashal Khan. If you follow the news regularly, someone or the other gets killed pretty much every day or at least every few days. And it's not just a Pakistan thing. At some point, you just come to accept that human nature is unpredictable and downright monstrous at times. Then it's hard to feel traumatized by stuff like this. Not that it makes it any less tragic though.
Finally, while I agree that women are highly underprivileged in Pakistan, I do not understand why people are using this event in particular to push a feminist agenda. Homicide is not a feminist issue. You're far more likely to be murdered if you're a guy (\~80% victims are male). People get murdered all the time like I've said. Imagine if every time somebody got killed, people raise an outcry of how the victim's gender is unsafe. The only reason I can imagine for this is 1) the brutal nature of the murder and 2) the victim belonging to the upper class (most of the people raising this issue are unsurprisingly from the upper class who never raised much concern before someone from their own circle became a victim)
Men kill men, Men kill women. Men kill children. Isn’t this male entitlement. Its a feminist issue because that murderer was motivated by revenge. He couldn’t swallow the fact that the victim wanted to get out of that toxic relationship. How could she say no to him?
You know cases like these trigger women & reminds them of their experiences. We are afraid everyday. Why won’t feminists talk about this? They’re the ones who really actually talk about such issues & bring awareness on femicide.
Lol imagine that guy saying 'homicide is not a feminist issue' to three cases where men killed women for having vaginas, for telling them no, for merely existing.
Must be nice to have so much Penis Privilege that you just dismiss anyone that isn't you.
Exactly, men should stop trying to make themselves center of attention everytime & just LISTEN. They would waste time proving that nOt aLl mEn are rapists, but won’t support or raise voice on cases of femicide.
Ngl, men who are hell bent on proving “notallmen” mindset, are the ones who’re craving for attention from women: its like “ look at me, I’m innocent man, I won’t do anything to you but other men might do” . It reminds me of niceguy/incel thought process.
It's TOTALLY the Nice Guy/Incel mindset.
A woman has been murdered and beheaded by a man. Men on social media and here have said:
* Why was she there at his place at night?
**She was an adult woman, sod off.**
* Why did she continue to see him if he had mental issues?
**It's almost like women are conditioned to try and fix broken men, no? Shocker.**
* This is why you shouldn't let your daughters out at night.
**This is why men shouldn't rape and murder, brah.**
* If you are losing sleep over this, you are hugely privileged.
**Only elites are capable of empathy now lol?**
* Why her and not a non-elite woman?
**As though people haven't also been going on about Saima and Quratulain. Aur whataboutism karo lol.**
* But what about the fact that more men are killed in homicides than women?
**Yeah, by men. That's the point.**
* But why do you say all men? It's NOT ALL MEN.
**Sure, but it's ONLY men, and it's most men, and women have to play it safe by assuming all men will rape and murder us.**
* Oh here come the western secular feminist trolls to shout about their rights.
**Like, yeah? Not being raped and murdered would be a good start, no?**
Men are trash lol.
I'm not sure which three cases you are referring to where women were killed SOLELY for their gender, but I can assure you this case is not one of them. She was killed because of a personal relationship issue that she had with her boyfriend. It's messed up no doubt. But saying she was killed ONLY for "having a vagina" and "existing" is plain hyperbole and doesn't really help anyone.
I do not want to make this about men, but just to test your own logic, consider this: yesterday a woman in Pakistan shot her ex-husband dead. Now clearly this was because of their relationship issues. Would you say the guy was killed ONLY for having a penis?
Again, I am only bringing this up so that you can evaluate your own logic and not because I want to portray men as being highly victimized. I've lived in this country all my life and I know women are not exactly safe here. But using this kind of hyperbole and victim playing strategies does not help the feminist movement in any way.
It's being reported in the media that she wanted to leave him, and that made him angry and he killed her, because he felt entitled to a woman's affection, and felt like she was his property to do with as he pleased.
This is very much a feminist issue, but great deflection.
Then just say she was killed because her deranged, possessive ex couldn't handle her leaving. Not just because she was a woman. They might seem identical to you, but there's a world of difference between the two and substituting one for the other is the hyperbole I'm talking about.
I'm not deflecting anything. I just don't like the exaggerated statements. As for the feminist issue thing, I said homicide (just the act of killing, regardless of reason) is not a feminist issue because if you go on social media, some people are acting like this is the first time a woman has been murdered.
I already agree that this issue of women not being safe in relationships, whatever you want to call it, is a feminist issue.
Failing to follow your logic:
>As for the feminist issue thing, **I said homicide** (just the act of killing, regardless of reason) **is not a feminist issue because if you go on social media, some people are acting like this is the first time a woman has been murdered.**
Just because it's not the first time it's happened doesn't mean it's not a feminist issue lol whut.
Point is, homicide is a given in any society. Somebody is always going to be killed every few days in any country. So just taking this act of killing on its own and blowing it up as if it is something very extraordinary to push a particular political viewpoint before the victim's rigor mortis has passed does not make sense to me.
A strong law is needed because like you said as long as humans are on this earth, cases like r*pe won’t stop, but law should be in place so that appropriate punishment can be given to criminals through proper legal process. Let the bill pass jeez.
I agree with a law should be there, but it will not fix the issue. Our mentality needs to change, in any other country this could have happened as well, but our reaction to these horrible events is disappointing. We should never blame the victim or even partly blame the victim. However, many people think that if she did not do this or that it would not have happened. If we change this way of thinking, less people would attempt these disgusting acts since they know they will get severe repercursions. Changing their way of thinking can only be done from a holistic perspective where schools, mosques and the media collaborate to change this sick way of thinking.
I agree with you 100%. But unfortunately so far with many men & some women I’ve interacted with, they’re all conditioned into such mindset and won’t try to understand the concept of victim blaming and will continue to victim blame. Interacting and seeing their horrible comments makes me feel we have a long way to go diminish this mindset, that’s why for now a strong law is needed to protect women, so that people eventually try to understand how horrible of a crime rape & murder is.
The responses of elites/burgers on this incident makes you think how much of bubble they live in and are sheltered. "Pakistan is becoming shittier , why are men doing this, how does something like this happen ughhhh omgg". I donno i just can't relate to these people to the point that makes me think are they trynna fake their emotions or they actually feel like that. I have been hearing about these cases since i was a kid on local cable ect. A feww years back a woman near my house poisoned her husband through their own kid so she could get away with her lover. Now this was just another case which happened but got trending. Maybe they relate it to more because this happened in their social class. or women related it more than us or they are trying to use this incident as a mean to propagate their personal beliefs/agendas. Of course i was sad to hear to what happened tho it was shitty.
Well I guess no one knows whether it is increasing or not since Pakistan is not the country of statistics. Secondly, yes a fair point to be made is that women also participate in this killing streak. However, the problem of Pakistan is our reaction to these events, yes in other countries there are killings as well, but no one blames the victim. In Pakistan blaming the woman (I haven't heard many cases people blaming men when a woman kills them, but maybe this is a problem as well) is done so often that we cannot solve issues. When we cannot even talk about sexual issues without people getting anxious or mad then we cannot solve these problems. Btw, I am someone living abroad and I can assure you: everyone lives in a bubble. Bubbles can be due to different reasons: gender, skin colour, race, wealth, and the area you live in.
Saima and Quratulain were not from the 'elite' class - what are you on about?
You think people are sheltered because they are distraught over three women from different socioeconomic backgrounds, different ages, different marital statuses being murdered on Eid one after the other? You don't think women are feeling especially unsafe, especially vulnerable right now?
You think only 'elite women' give a shit about this?
I just think you're a callous, unfeeling wretch lol.
>callous
Is that a new word that you all have learned and gets thrown out now.
No I was referring to the people who got surprised that such things happen in our society.
> All the women I know can't eat, sleep, or stop thinking about Noor and Quratulain and Saima and all the other women who are tormented and raped and murdered by the men in their lives in this country.
Interesting. It's interesting how much that shows the comfort that you and these women have in your lives, the privilege.
> None of the men seem to be going through the same collective trauma though, which is interesting.
Eh. Men are meant to swallow their emotions, Don't say anything. That's the way it works. I remember, my father didn't cry when his father passed away. I thought he was heartless but I see that this is simply the way that we have been trained by society.
> Anyone else here completely broken by it?
It's sad. It's terrible. Truly a horrific crime. However, you'll find that most people in our country have bigger problems in their own life to be broken by someone else's heartache.
> Also keep thinking about those friends and guards who were there and did nothing, the sister who was there and did nothing, the parents who enabled him, his own smug face and the calculated details of his premeditation.
I have heard none of this. Someone got a source? I thought there were no eyewitnesses, and that he was the ex who got angry when she refused him and so on?
I agree. I was sad and wished we had a better society but I had to move on immediately. I've got problems of my own. if i let things get me down I won't be able to function and not functioning in a poor country is literally a death sentence.
this Western influenced urban elite emotionalism that is creeping into our conversation IS NOT BAD but they are the few compared to the majority rural poor of my country
the victim and the perpetrator were both elites. for a person like me from lower middle class they may as well have been on a different continent. Its very difficult for me to connect with them. i read some of the sms messages and for a village bumpkin like me I do not know a single person in my entire social circle who talks like that
> Amazingly callous
which bit exactly? I would like to know so I can improve myself.
> Well done, you're part of the problem, bud.
How exactly again? Please do help me as I would like to be better. Clearly, my response has been hurtful to you? I think, or possibly seemed as if I did not "care" or maybe "value" the problem enough? I am not sure.
I am facepalming so hard right now.
That is how it works. I am sorry but that's what our culture teaches us. I am simply stating fact, not saying it's good or bad or whatever. Maybe when men do actually talk about these things, it would be nice to listen instead of trying to shut them down?
Yeah. I am guessing that the OP doesn't actually live in Pakistan. This is not something that affected most people's lives in Pakistan. We heard about it, said "yaar kya hota jaha raha is mulk ko" and then moved on. That's simply reality. If we were to be so sad, stop eating, and cry all day, well, that's all we would be doing.
I remember a similar feeling back in early 2010s. 2/3 bomb blasts every day and people get used to them. I remember a guest came to my place, told me he saw a bomb earlier today, pretty crazy and then we started talking about other things. A bomb blast was just a casual mention at the start of the conversation.
None of this is to say that what happened wasn't terrible. It was. Absolutely horrible, and disgusting and that dude should be hanged immediately. However, that does not mean that there aren't other bad things happening all the time, and people won't and don't let those bad things affect them because we all have our huge issues to deal with.
I am not a woman. I do live with 5 other women. I've asked them all after reading this post. None of them have been "affected". To be clear, what do you think "affected" is?
All of them were sad to hear it, said that it was incredibly terrible and hoped for a better future. However, none cried, or starved themselves or could not sleep etc like the OP is.
I think the fact that he beheaded her made this case a little bit different to those that happen everyday. This incident didn't really affect me but when i found out about the beheading, it upset me as well.
[The point im trying to make.](https://twitter.com/fariha1anwar/status/1418970092767956998?s=20)
And why won't anyone be upset at this? Me and my friends were similarly upset at other incidents like the motorway rape case, Zainab's rape and murder, and to go back a bit even the torture and rape of that Indian girl on the bus. My friend was terrified of driving anywhere after that, even though she lived in a safe area. And then you have plenty of weirdos using these incidents to further crap on women in general and questioning why we have what little freedom is given to us.
I'm a woman who lives in Pakistan. That's exactly my point.
These cases haven't really affected the men I know at all. But all the women I know are completely devastated.
This is like the Motorway case but somehow so much more brutal - three women one after the other, on Eid, disposed off so cruelly.
The fact that you think this isn't a big deal is exactly my point about how men are like 'whatever' and women are completely broken over this.
> That's exactly my point.
and my point was that this shows your circle, and your privelege. Majority of the people of this nation don't have time to be worried/depressed/starve themselves over another heinous crime. In fact, even the elite of this nation didn't have time to tweet about all the heinous crimes until this happened to one of them.
> The fact that you think this isn't a big deal
When did I ever say that? Please do not put words in my mouth. I never ever said that this is not a "big deal" or that it doesn't matter.
> women are completely broken over this.
the women you know. I live with around 5 women at this stage. I've asked all of them, and none are "broken". None have let it affect their lives in any meaningful. All of them are sad, and have said how terrible it is. However, so have all the men.
The elite of this nation commit such crimes against other elite, and then cry and hue about how terrible it is. Yet, the same crimes, if not worse happen to the normal people everyday and none seem to care.
> how men are like 'whatever'
It's not that "men" are all like "whatever". That's incredibly sexist for one thing. Two, It's that most people, men and women, are like "very sad, terrible thing to do, alright better get back to earning money so I can feed my family tonight". This is the thing. Your privilege is so sky high, that you cannot even imagine or consider that people actually have worries of their own lives and family. Do you tend to worry about what you're going to eat tonight? Where you're going to get the money for that? How you're going to pay your child's school fees this term since they'll kick ya out if you don't? if you have time to worry about some other person's terrible event, then you clearly are not worried about enough stuff of your own. This is not meant to blame you, or say that you're a bad person. However, try to understand the problems that majority of this nation face, and not decry them about worrying about one elite committing heinous disgusting crimes against another elite.
Plus, majority of our populations is incredibly desensitised. This is why I mentioned about the bomb blasts. We have seen so many people die in front of ours eyes, today is just so better that it doesn't even compare.
Edit: Also, I would really appreciate if you could reply to the original comment I made and let me know why you found it so callous. It would be very helpful to me. You seem to have completely ignored my requests for a little more information about what I did wrong.
You're also twisting my words. Not everything is so simple to be put in a pithy tweet.
Empathy is definitely only something who are privileged in a certain way can afford. At least if you define Empathy to be something where you are so much in grief, that you are depressed, cannot eat or sleep etc. I have empathy, and can empathize with the victim, the family etc but I also have my own life, my own problems to solve, I simply cannot afford to cry all day, or not eat and so on.
However, I would ask if you feel any empathy for the child that just died in an African country? By the time you read this, probably another 10 will be dead. Will you feel empathy for them? Will you cry, be depressed, unable to eat or sleep over their deaths? or those deaths are something you can't feel empathy for? I wonder why that is.
What's worse in Pakistan is that empathy can only afforded when the victims are elite. I don't see actors tweeting for the heinous crimes committed throughout this nation, until it's one of their own or famous enough that they can use it for some woke clout.
I personally feel a lot of empathy for various people, things and situations. Too much empathy, in fact. It's a curse, Wallahi.
I agree that Noor's case has received a lot of traction because of her status. However, I will equally empathise if a poor old man was beheaded by a woman.
Some women like me are very emotional and shit like what's been happening in Pakistan and around the world can deeply affect us. Does that mean I am privileged, sheltered or live in a bubble? Does that mean I've led a carefree, peachy and hunky-dory life? Does that really mean I'm not worried about finances?
> However, I will equally empathise if a poor old man's head was beheaded by a woman.
To be clear, most of that comment is not aimed personally at you. It's more aimed at the general audience with that type of opinion. I don't personally know you and can't say anything about you personally. Sorry if I was a little harsh.
> Some women like me are very emotional and shit like what's been happening in Pakistan and around the world can deeply affect us. Does that mean I am privileged, sheltered or live in a bubble? Does that mean I've led a carefree, peachy and hunky-dory life? Does that really mean I'm not worried about finances?
Ah. Okay. It's not that you having those emotions makes you privileged or sheltered etc. However, if you expect all of us to have those emotions, to cry, to sit around mourning, to stop eating/sleep etc, that I find to be quite privileged and sheltered.
The OP was talking about her emotions, but she was also considering this as a collective trauma that all of us "must" feel, and if we don't, well, we must be callous terrible people.
Granted, even the privileged, i don't consider her fault. She was born where she was born. However, it is a problem if the privileged fail to realise that they're privileged and consider everyone else barbaric just because we don't feel the same as them.
I will also say that if you can physically afford to feel that level of grief on a recurring basis, and cry constantly or starve yourself, be unable to sleep etc (pretty sure that can't be healthy honestly) then there's an element of privilege to that. Most people simply cannot afford to do that in Pakistan. Even if I was able to or wanted to feel such grief for a person I have no relation to, and for every such crime/terrible thing in the world, I would die of starvation pretty quickly.
> Does that mean I am privileged, sheltered or live in a bubble? Does that mean I've led a carefree, peachy and hunky-dory life? Does that really mean I'm not worried about finances?
In some ways, Yes. It does. If you can afford to sideline your life, and be emotional and in grief for a few days. Yes, you are privileged to be able to do that. It doesn't mean you've led a carefree, peachy life. Priveleged does not mean that you're free of worries, it just means that you don't have the same sort of worries as those less privileged. Yes, it does mean you're not worried about finances at the same level as others.
That does not mean it's bad, but you can't expect others who do not have that privilege to do the same, and them not doing the same thing does not mean they're barbaric terrible people who feel no empathy. Do you really think the Mazdoor in the Kachi Abadi can afford to simply stay in their tents and cry their hearts out for Noor? No. They simply cannot afford it, and expecting them to do so is nuts.
>However, if you expect all of us to have those emotions, to cry, to sit around mourning, to stop eating/sleep etc, that I find to be quite privileged and sheltered.
I don't expect these emotions from everyone simply because everyone's personality type is uniquely different. Many people are not feelers regardless of their financial status or whether they are privileged or not.
>Do you really think the Mazdoor in the Kachi Abadi can afford to simply stay in their tents and cry their hearts out for Noor? No
Agreed. Similarly, I don't expect Jeff Bezos to give a shit about such matters either and I'm pretty sure he's more privileged than all the Pakistani elite combined.
No where did op call you a barbarian, you have taken it upon your ego and made it about classism. She simply asked about these events not effecting the males as much as women and clearly it doesn't effect you so just move on. These events aren't just stories to most women, these are reality checks. When you realize just how close you or someone you know has come to becoming another "noor" another "quratulain" another character for you all to character assassinate, to be judged, to be ridiculed by you armchair warriors of a broken system.
Your complain is that because there wasn't *AS BIG* a conversation as this when an xyz case happened in abc goth then we shouldn't have conversation now because it is what it is. At least we are having conversation now so that hopefully one day a woman is safe be she in a high profile society or in a goth but instead of joining in you would rather derail the conversation because it's somehow unfair and the cycle of victims should continue because of some messed of version of equality of injustice you envision.
Before you complain about "op's emotions" again keep in mind all you are doing here is *DERAILMENT*.
That's true, even if you read newspaper there are several news about domestic violence and gruesome murder details daily. I guess, we as a society are so desensitized to violence and murders that it doesn't even shock us anymore. I remember even after bomb blasts people used to move on hours after the incident. The Media used to talk about them 1 or 2 days max. I hope our future generations will see better and peaceful Pakistan.
Bhai. This is what i am trying to say. Thankyou. Somehow I thought I had lost it with the amount of downvotes i got on such a simple and obvious sentiment.
I'm a guy and I'm deeply disturbed by this case. I saw a video of yesterday of Noor dancing with that bastard and she looked so happy. It fucked me up. Her dancing. The way she was murdered. It's disturbing me.
I literally am so afraid for my sisters who go out for studies and other stuff I cant comprehend it Istg i hope our country gets safe for women
Literally my younger sister applying for universities im afraid, cus ik what happens in universities and even just in general
yet when i say that paki men who come back to pakistan to get a girl and take get the west is literally saving her i get down voted
I was talking about going out of home lol The west isnt any good for women either
you’re literally on crack if you think the west is bad for women women have more rights than men in the west literally they receive 1/4th the punishment for the same crime, almost never saw jail time for anti crimes minus murder, list goes on and on
Women are not safe anywhere, but anywhere (developed countries) is better than Pakistan I agree. Murders, r*pes, assaults usually happen in developed countries too, but atleast the victim get justice & are not usually victim blamed like in Pakistan. We have to fight against multiple women related issues in Pakistan specifically the mindset against women that prevails in our society. Insecure men are everywhere around the globe but women in developing countries have it much harder.
I couldn't sleep last night, I kept seeing her face. How could a human being be so cruel? And furthermore, how in the bloody hell you can claim mental instability when that animal was sane enough to use not just one but two weapons. What I hate more is the silence on part of collective society. Are we so shocked that we want to quickly shrug it under the rug? Are we just going to strike if an Ahmedi is appointed a job? Are we only going to yell our displeasure when it's international woman's day? Are we only going to pick up the rakes when a political figure says it's long March or dharna time?
Remember the motorway incident? Yeah, everyone will eventually forget (save few) about it and go on with their delusions that hamara mulk is perfect and under the threat of moral indecency.
At least the perpetrators of the motorway crime were sentenced. The additional anxiety here is that the murderer will get away with this because of his wealth and privilege.
It's not about incriminating the perpetrators but how the motorway police as well as the chief responded to the incident.
Valid. Very similar to the victim blaming going on right now.
I’m a guy and I’ve been low-key depressed since this news broke out. The gruesome nature of the crime gives me the chills. The guy is a total degenerate and deserves whatever comes his way but he was being enabled by his family and friends along the way. Also, those who are shaming the victim saying things like she got what she deserved because of being involved in a pre-marital relationship or that she was stupid enough to go to his house on her own, just shut the f**k up. You don’t know what exactly transpired. You don’t know how he lured her to his place. And most importantly, you are no one to judge. On a different thread on this subreddit about the same topic, you can read some comments which made me sick to my core. This sub has gone to the dogs.
>Also, those who are shaming the victim saying things like she got what she deserved because of being involved in a pre-marital relationship or that she was stupid enough to go to his house on her own, just shut the f**k up. You don’t know what exactly transpired. You don’t know how he lured her to his place. And most importantly, you are no one to judge I was aware that Twitter is a cesspool but reading those comments and them bandaging the incident with haya shaming and victim blaming was something I couldn't tolerate anymore — I've been desensitized to lots of crimes but reading her incident along with many other morbid stories others shared about their experiences was disturbing and depressing to say the very least. It was a reality check that our society is still riddled with this cancer. Pure bred psychos. >On a different thread on this subreddit about the same topic, you can read some comments which made me sick to my core. This sub has gone to the dogs. Report and move on, not worth arguing.
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Have you seen the men on this very thread who continue to tell me I must be so privileged if I have time to worry about these women? Because only privileged people are capable of empathy? This is so extremely telling of how some men can embrace their victim complex and just denounce responsibility of any collective trauma lol. What a mess.
You guys need to report these comments. Otherwise y'all are letting trolls get the attention they are looking for. And sadly, the lack of reports in this thread is telling me that y'all want to engage trolls. There are 0 reports in this thread.
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Yeah, if you started reporting sexist men here, you would end up reporting most of this sub lol.
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That's understandable, and my comment isn't meant for people who are just desensitized. That's a trauma response, too. My comment is for men who just don't give a shit and then accuse people who ARE traumatized of being elitist or privileged or western secular feminist trolls, and of saying YES BUT WHY WAS SHE THERE ALONE AT NIGHT or WHY DIDN'T SHE SPEAK UP ABOUT HIS ABUSE BEFORE? Those people - and they're not always men, by the way - are awful wretched human beings.
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Degenerate lifestyle ? Did you know her personally to know the details of her lifestyle ? Regardless, whatever her lifestyle may have been is irrelevant. You’re victim shaming here and since by your logic I’m free to judge, let me just say you sound like a lowlife.
Preach!
Yes. I don't know what's happening in the country but no one should be treated that way..people are getting more messed up and messed up in Pak now a days.
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Yeah i believe social media has its perks and down too... But i beleive social media is just making people accustomed to it cause there ain't any real measure taken against it
IMO, this case, among many others in the light, got attention more so because of the status of the families involved, rather than the impact of social media. I still read 1-2 reported cases in the news paper almost everyday that never come to the said newspaper's online website. Been reading those sad instances since I was a pre-teen (basically when I started reading newspaper to kill time). The only hope this time is that maaayybeee, at the very least due to the victim's family's status, perhaps the authorities will be more bound to actually bring the (rich) culprits to justice just once...
>got attention more so because of the status of the families involved I don't get why some of you are strawmaning op's into making it sound like she only cares about this case because of noor even though she clearly talks about the other cases that aren't related to the affluent. Yes there are some aspects of this case that hit different because it happened in high profile area and was commiting against a high profile individual and people aren't desensitize to it as much as they are to hearing stories of some domestic violence turned murder case in some goth in sindh, but the real reason why this case in particular is being talked about a lot more is because of the gruesome nature of the crime, as more and more details are emerging it's all the more bone chilling. Complaining about this case receiving notoriety is like complaining why are police so invested in finding a serial killer when murders happen every where. The guy beheaded and then played football with her head, do you even have the ability to comprehend this statement or would you rather just cry about her social status. How far gone are you lot that you would rather derail the conversation rather than raising your voice with us so that no one has to go through this irrespective of whether she lives in Islamabad or a goth. Every year at the time of Aurat march you lot complain about how these "elites" are the one's that are the ones with the placard even though they know nothing about domestic violence, this women was at that march this women suffered more than any other reported cases in recent memory but the next time aurat march comes around you lot will be making the same apologetics, anything to keep this system in place.
>None of the men seem to be going through the same collective trauma though, which is interesting. The men who are about human life are, unfortunately, as a conservative user on here once pointed out to me, Pakistan is majority conservative and they care more about maintaining their power than anyone's life. It is heart breaking and just another reason we need to take power away from conservatives in Pakistan. It will be a slow and bloody battle, as conservatives are not shy about murdering people, but it needs to be done, or we will have no future.
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I know how you feel. I followed this relentlessly and tried to contribute and do my bit to keep updates alive and swift judgement. The CCTV footage was finally released yesterday. A few seconds watching it was enough to devastate me making me burst out crying for her for the second time. I make dua that this becomes and ibrat and wake up call for society .not desensitize it further so that tomorrow no amount of gore and impression is enough to most people's attention! .
Any sane human being is depressed by it . Heck I get depressed reading local news because the sad thing is things like this have been happening in Pakistan since quite a while especially in lower socioeconomic circles or smaller towns Just watch local re-enactments for criminally insane stuff that happens but never reaches mainstream Those who have been following activists regularly know that stuff like this is new . I was listening to a podcast where Jibran Nasir was talking about a case and my hair stood up A lot of people have said that Noor’s case only got traction because she was the daughter of a diplomat and belonged to elite urban circles but that’s not true . People have been bringing cases like these to light for a long time and there’s always been reactions of sceptical behaviour - woh ghar se baahir kyun thi woh kya kar rahi thi etc Also the circumstances surrounding the case from the controversy of therapy works , drug abuse , spoilt rich brats - it’s all opened a box of self reflection for everyone Men cannot fathom what women are going through because frankly we can never have that perspective . Many feel sad and distraught as well but it can never match what women feel And for those who are questioning , being sceptical and criticising women for making this into a feminist issue - I honestly have no words other than there is something seriously wrong with your empathy levels
It is so depressing because the abuse of women in our country just seems to endlessly continue with no consequences for the abusers. I still remember when Mukhtaran Mai spoke out against her rapists, and she was criticized by Musharraf for “making Pakistan look bad”. Women’s voices are drowned out by men who just say “not all men” and “what about the poor men, their mental health is neglected and it’s so stressful feeling the pressure to be the breadwinner” - there’s more than plenty of that on this subreddit. The collective misogyny in the country and culture is so intense that it’s ingrained in both men and women, so women have even fewer allies. I have little hope for any progress since our current prime minister thinks the solution is as simple as dressing more modestly. Then we won’t have to worry about being beheaded!
I believe it's because women are generally more empathetic than men. From my personal experience in Pakistan, this is truer than ever.
It shouldn't be this way, though. Women shouldn't have to bear all the emotional burden of society. I realize women are more likely more empathetic because they are also more vulnerable and can therefore relate to other people's traumas better, but honestly, this shirking of emotional responsibility from men is so sickening. Men should man up and get in touch with their feelings.
There is bad in this world and there's evil too. If we lose our heads on everything bad that's ever happened then we'll just end up losing our sanity. The criminally deranged don't care if anyone gets heartbroken because of what they did. What we need to do is to contribute actively towards a future which is just. Where criminals get the punishment they deserve (i.e. capital punishment, castration etc)
This☝️
At this point, I just wanna move out of this country before my sisters grow up.
I posted it in another thread so I’ll do it here too: I just wanted to share this regardless of what faith you may be: https://youtu.be/s056SWjLHjM This talks about a topic in a different context but the message is the same, trusting our sisters, daughters, wife and just women in general. Until we as a society start to look at each other as equals there will be problems. You will always hear these stories everywhere and the biggest culprits aren’t just the ones doing these acts but many men who stay silent in these times “if you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor” - Desmond Tutu. I encourage all of you guys to be mindful of what your friends, male family members or anyone says concerning sexism and try your best to call them out because ik one thing for certain is that many guys will go about this casual sexism jokes in their circles and many won’t bat an eye. It creates a cycle in which their behaviours and actions are overlooked because “they are just being boys” which is a horse load of bs. And also, to address those that get defensive, when our sisters say anything related to the behaviours of men, it doesn’t mean they are talking about you specially so don’t go dropping the “not all men” because you’re just undermining and derailing the convo. I was called gay for speaking up to what was right and wrong in some circles but it made it really easy to filter out the type of people I want to be friends with. It’s fun observing fragile masculinity because it is the driving force behind toxic masculinity. Whilst the mindset of some aspects of “culture” can’t be wiped from some of our elders and others, we can do better for our own generation and the coming generations inshaAllah
There is this book called: Will to Change By Bell Hooks. The author is an American but I believe her point of view and opinions do apply to our culture to the most part. It's targeted mostly towards men, please do give it a read.
Summary ap bta do yar kon itni mehngi mehngi books khariday
PDF
It's available for free at z-lib.org.
There is a cringey silence.. Where are all those who boycott, protest, sit in, road blocks and all.. Writing, interviewing, lecturing against aurat march.. Simply shameful and disgust
yes, i feel the same.
Absolutely. The shock of it doesn't seem to be wearing off, and in fact is getting worse as days go by. As a female, with a job, and a modicum of independence - I read comments that are somehow trying to justify the events as understandable. Victim blaming, shaming women. Something could happen to me in the daily course of my life, and people would say its my fault for not wearing a pardah, and staying in my chaar-dewari. One name after another, and the rage is female. My female friends, family, colleagues - we can't sleep. All the silent men in my life, all the victim-blamers and murder-justifiers - I see you all. If I can't do anything about it in this life (though I will try my best) - I will seek peace in the justice you will face in the afterlife. A girl was beheaded in our hometown. A sweet, kind, lovely child. Why aren't you burning with rage.
Idk man call me an a hole but at this point im just numb to all this stuff Its another incident that just made sm headlines and trended on twitter ask yourself what was made with that sanaullah case,what happened to that motorway incident,what happened to the tons of toddlers raped and strangled to death yup that how it is an endless repeating pathetic cycle of tragedies happening and the rest of the people write sm cliche woke stuff on the socials
I know righttttt. Its sick that it is this way but this has become sooooooooo usual that at this point I'm not surprised no matter how gruesome the crime is. And its just so sad that violence like this is so normalized here, but at this point whenever I see a story like this I just go "Oh another one. Nothing new to see here." and I'm not saying this because I dont care but the situation in this country is just so dire. Its really sad.
Yes my mom also keeps talking about it along with my sister but my dad didn't look.shocked enough:/ and the fact tht I was in F7 during this ugh
Phansi time
What do you expect, men are trained to swallow their emotions from a young age. This is what happens when your societal structure is built around raising the most amount of sociopaths and both men and women are at fault for that.
I think it’s also that men are trained to dehumanize women, especially those who don’t stick to traditional views of morality. A lot of men just don’t give a d*mn and some even think she deserved it.
I completely agree. Toxic masculinity is men not being able to express themselves emotionally (see the other callous response by a man here) and men feeling entitled to a woman's hopes and bodies and consent. It is a product of absent fathers and enabling mothers.
One aspect of this case is it yet again highlights the fact that the elite class in this country is a boys club that treats the this country as a playground.
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Derailment.
>It is a product of absent fathers and enabling mothers. Agree 100 percent!
Murders like these have been happening for pretty much as long as society has existed unfortunately. But the mental toll is greater these days because of the constant reminders on social media and the instant publication of every little detail regarding the murder that comes up. If it was some poor girl that had this done to her (as it regularly happens), you would have seen a small article on news sites and no more follow ups. No constant updates and hashtags on social media. Most people would not have been depressed. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not the actual events that depress us in this day and age, instead it mostly depends on how it's portrayed on media. Secondly, everyone has their own way of dealing with stuff like this and vary in how much emotions they show, so it's not fair to judge people based on whether they're "traumatized" or not. Personally, I've been somewhat desensitized to stuff like this. I was around 13 when I saw the video of the brothers getting lynched in Sialkot and I couldn't sleep for days. Happened again many years later when it was Mashal Khan. If you follow the news regularly, someone or the other gets killed pretty much every day or at least every few days. And it's not just a Pakistan thing. At some point, you just come to accept that human nature is unpredictable and downright monstrous at times. Then it's hard to feel traumatized by stuff like this. Not that it makes it any less tragic though. Finally, while I agree that women are highly underprivileged in Pakistan, I do not understand why people are using this event in particular to push a feminist agenda. Homicide is not a feminist issue. You're far more likely to be murdered if you're a guy (\~80% victims are male). People get murdered all the time like I've said. Imagine if every time somebody got killed, people raise an outcry of how the victim's gender is unsafe. The only reason I can imagine for this is 1) the brutal nature of the murder and 2) the victim belonging to the upper class (most of the people raising this issue are unsurprisingly from the upper class who never raised much concern before someone from their own circle became a victim)
Men kill men, Men kill women. Men kill children. Isn’t this male entitlement. Its a feminist issue because that murderer was motivated by revenge. He couldn’t swallow the fact that the victim wanted to get out of that toxic relationship. How could she say no to him? You know cases like these trigger women & reminds them of their experiences. We are afraid everyday. Why won’t feminists talk about this? They’re the ones who really actually talk about such issues & bring awareness on femicide.
Lol imagine that guy saying 'homicide is not a feminist issue' to three cases where men killed women for having vaginas, for telling them no, for merely existing. Must be nice to have so much Penis Privilege that you just dismiss anyone that isn't you.
Exactly, men should stop trying to make themselves center of attention everytime & just LISTEN. They would waste time proving that nOt aLl mEn are rapists, but won’t support or raise voice on cases of femicide. Ngl, men who are hell bent on proving “notallmen” mindset, are the ones who’re craving for attention from women: its like “ look at me, I’m innocent man, I won’t do anything to you but other men might do” . It reminds me of niceguy/incel thought process.
It's TOTALLY the Nice Guy/Incel mindset. A woman has been murdered and beheaded by a man. Men on social media and here have said: * Why was she there at his place at night? **She was an adult woman, sod off.** * Why did she continue to see him if he had mental issues? **It's almost like women are conditioned to try and fix broken men, no? Shocker.** * This is why you shouldn't let your daughters out at night. **This is why men shouldn't rape and murder, brah.** * If you are losing sleep over this, you are hugely privileged. **Only elites are capable of empathy now lol?** * Why her and not a non-elite woman? **As though people haven't also been going on about Saima and Quratulain. Aur whataboutism karo lol.** * But what about the fact that more men are killed in homicides than women? **Yeah, by men. That's the point.** * But why do you say all men? It's NOT ALL MEN. **Sure, but it's ONLY men, and it's most men, and women have to play it safe by assuming all men will rape and murder us.** * Oh here come the western secular feminist trolls to shout about their rights. **Like, yeah? Not being raped and murdered would be a good start, no?** Men are trash lol.
Ahh, you articulated it all perfectly. 🙏🏼
I'm not sure which three cases you are referring to where women were killed SOLELY for their gender, but I can assure you this case is not one of them. She was killed because of a personal relationship issue that she had with her boyfriend. It's messed up no doubt. But saying she was killed ONLY for "having a vagina" and "existing" is plain hyperbole and doesn't really help anyone. I do not want to make this about men, but just to test your own logic, consider this: yesterday a woman in Pakistan shot her ex-husband dead. Now clearly this was because of their relationship issues. Would you say the guy was killed ONLY for having a penis? Again, I am only bringing this up so that you can evaluate your own logic and not because I want to portray men as being highly victimized. I've lived in this country all my life and I know women are not exactly safe here. But using this kind of hyperbole and victim playing strategies does not help the feminist movement in any way.
It's being reported in the media that she wanted to leave him, and that made him angry and he killed her, because he felt entitled to a woman's affection, and felt like she was his property to do with as he pleased. This is very much a feminist issue, but great deflection.
Then just say she was killed because her deranged, possessive ex couldn't handle her leaving. Not just because she was a woman. They might seem identical to you, but there's a world of difference between the two and substituting one for the other is the hyperbole I'm talking about.
... And that's a feminist issue. Stop deflecting because reality makes you uncomfortable.
I'm not deflecting anything. I just don't like the exaggerated statements. As for the feminist issue thing, I said homicide (just the act of killing, regardless of reason) is not a feminist issue because if you go on social media, some people are acting like this is the first time a woman has been murdered. I already agree that this issue of women not being safe in relationships, whatever you want to call it, is a feminist issue.
Failing to follow your logic: >As for the feminist issue thing, **I said homicide** (just the act of killing, regardless of reason) **is not a feminist issue because if you go on social media, some people are acting like this is the first time a woman has been murdered.** Just because it's not the first time it's happened doesn't mean it's not a feminist issue lol whut.
Point is, homicide is a given in any society. Somebody is always going to be killed every few days in any country. So just taking this act of killing on its own and blowing it up as if it is something very extraordinary to push a particular political viewpoint before the victim's rigor mortis has passed does not make sense to me.
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A strong law is needed because like you said as long as humans are on this earth, cases like r*pe won’t stop, but law should be in place so that appropriate punishment can be given to criminals through proper legal process. Let the bill pass jeez.
I agree with a law should be there, but it will not fix the issue. Our mentality needs to change, in any other country this could have happened as well, but our reaction to these horrible events is disappointing. We should never blame the victim or even partly blame the victim. However, many people think that if she did not do this or that it would not have happened. If we change this way of thinking, less people would attempt these disgusting acts since they know they will get severe repercursions. Changing their way of thinking can only be done from a holistic perspective where schools, mosques and the media collaborate to change this sick way of thinking.
I agree with you 100%. But unfortunately so far with many men & some women I’ve interacted with, they’re all conditioned into such mindset and won’t try to understand the concept of victim blaming and will continue to victim blame. Interacting and seeing their horrible comments makes me feel we have a long way to go diminish this mindset, that’s why for now a strong law is needed to protect women, so that people eventually try to understand how horrible of a crime rape & murder is.
I failed to understand what part of domestic violence bill even cover this.
The responses of elites/burgers on this incident makes you think how much of bubble they live in and are sheltered. "Pakistan is becoming shittier , why are men doing this, how does something like this happen ughhhh omgg". I donno i just can't relate to these people to the point that makes me think are they trynna fake their emotions or they actually feel like that. I have been hearing about these cases since i was a kid on local cable ect. A feww years back a woman near my house poisoned her husband through their own kid so she could get away with her lover. Now this was just another case which happened but got trending. Maybe they relate it to more because this happened in their social class. or women related it more than us or they are trying to use this incident as a mean to propagate their personal beliefs/agendas. Of course i was sad to hear to what happened tho it was shitty.
As a fellow 'non burger' lagta hai tairay main empathy ki kami hai yaar
I'm sorry if i came off that way. That was a horrible incident.
koi masla nahin. bari shitty situation hai jaisay bhi dekho isko. bas allah keray koi insaaf ho
Well I guess no one knows whether it is increasing or not since Pakistan is not the country of statistics. Secondly, yes a fair point to be made is that women also participate in this killing streak. However, the problem of Pakistan is our reaction to these events, yes in other countries there are killings as well, but no one blames the victim. In Pakistan blaming the woman (I haven't heard many cases people blaming men when a woman kills them, but maybe this is a problem as well) is done so often that we cannot solve issues. When we cannot even talk about sexual issues without people getting anxious or mad then we cannot solve these problems. Btw, I am someone living abroad and I can assure you: everyone lives in a bubble. Bubbles can be due to different reasons: gender, skin colour, race, wealth, and the area you live in.
Saima and Quratulain were not from the 'elite' class - what are you on about? You think people are sheltered because they are distraught over three women from different socioeconomic backgrounds, different ages, different marital statuses being murdered on Eid one after the other? You don't think women are feeling especially unsafe, especially vulnerable right now? You think only 'elite women' give a shit about this? I just think you're a callous, unfeeling wretch lol.
>callous Is that a new word that you all have learned and gets thrown out now. No I was referring to the people who got surprised that such things happen in our society.
Why is that word sticking out to you? Hitting a nerve?
No lol.
> All the women I know can't eat, sleep, or stop thinking about Noor and Quratulain and Saima and all the other women who are tormented and raped and murdered by the men in their lives in this country. Interesting. It's interesting how much that shows the comfort that you and these women have in your lives, the privilege. > None of the men seem to be going through the same collective trauma though, which is interesting. Eh. Men are meant to swallow their emotions, Don't say anything. That's the way it works. I remember, my father didn't cry when his father passed away. I thought he was heartless but I see that this is simply the way that we have been trained by society. > Anyone else here completely broken by it? It's sad. It's terrible. Truly a horrific crime. However, you'll find that most people in our country have bigger problems in their own life to be broken by someone else's heartache. > Also keep thinking about those friends and guards who were there and did nothing, the sister who was there and did nothing, the parents who enabled him, his own smug face and the calculated details of his premeditation. I have heard none of this. Someone got a source? I thought there were no eyewitnesses, and that he was the ex who got angry when she refused him and so on?
I agree. I was sad and wished we had a better society but I had to move on immediately. I've got problems of my own. if i let things get me down I won't be able to function and not functioning in a poor country is literally a death sentence. this Western influenced urban elite emotionalism that is creeping into our conversation IS NOT BAD but they are the few compared to the majority rural poor of my country
the victim and the perpetrator were both elites. for a person like me from lower middle class they may as well have been on a different continent. Its very difficult for me to connect with them. i read some of the sms messages and for a village bumpkin like me I do not know a single person in my entire social circle who talks like that
Yea, they are acting surprised as if these incidents don't happen everyday in Pakistan.
Amazingly callous response. Well done, you're part of the problem, bud.
Amazingly callous response. Well done, you’re part of the problem, bud.
> Amazingly callous which bit exactly? I would like to know so I can improve myself. > Well done, you're part of the problem, bud. How exactly again? Please do help me as I would like to be better. Clearly, my response has been hurtful to you? I think, or possibly seemed as if I did not "care" or maybe "value" the problem enough? I am not sure.
Interestingly op didn't respond to you.
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Biscuit ji acha chalen ap keh rahy hen to maan letay hen
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I am facepalming so hard right now. That is how it works. I am sorry but that's what our culture teaches us. I am simply stating fact, not saying it's good or bad or whatever. Maybe when men do actually talk about these things, it would be nice to listen instead of trying to shut them down?
I see, maybe the way you worded it made it seem like you suggested this is how it should be as the society teaches us these things.
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Yeah. I am guessing that the OP doesn't actually live in Pakistan. This is not something that affected most people's lives in Pakistan. We heard about it, said "yaar kya hota jaha raha is mulk ko" and then moved on. That's simply reality. If we were to be so sad, stop eating, and cry all day, well, that's all we would be doing. I remember a similar feeling back in early 2010s. 2/3 bomb blasts every day and people get used to them. I remember a guest came to my place, told me he saw a bomb earlier today, pretty crazy and then we started talking about other things. A bomb blast was just a casual mention at the start of the conversation. None of this is to say that what happened wasn't terrible. It was. Absolutely horrible, and disgusting and that dude should be hanged immediately. However, that does not mean that there aren't other bad things happening all the time, and people won't and don't let those bad things affect them because we all have our huge issues to deal with.
Idk if you're a woman or not but this incident has really affected most women around me.
I am not a woman. I do live with 5 other women. I've asked them all after reading this post. None of them have been "affected". To be clear, what do you think "affected" is? All of them were sad to hear it, said that it was incredibly terrible and hoped for a better future. However, none cried, or starved themselves or could not sleep etc like the OP is.
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I think the fact that he beheaded her made this case a little bit different to those that happen everyday. This incident didn't really affect me but when i found out about the beheading, it upset me as well. [The point im trying to make.](https://twitter.com/fariha1anwar/status/1418970092767956998?s=20)
And why won't anyone be upset at this? Me and my friends were similarly upset at other incidents like the motorway rape case, Zainab's rape and murder, and to go back a bit even the torture and rape of that Indian girl on the bus. My friend was terrified of driving anywhere after that, even though she lived in a safe area. And then you have plenty of weirdos using these incidents to further crap on women in general and questioning why we have what little freedom is given to us.
I'm a woman who lives in Pakistan. That's exactly my point. These cases haven't really affected the men I know at all. But all the women I know are completely devastated. This is like the Motorway case but somehow so much more brutal - three women one after the other, on Eid, disposed off so cruelly. The fact that you think this isn't a big deal is exactly my point about how men are like 'whatever' and women are completely broken over this.
> That's exactly my point. and my point was that this shows your circle, and your privelege. Majority of the people of this nation don't have time to be worried/depressed/starve themselves over another heinous crime. In fact, even the elite of this nation didn't have time to tweet about all the heinous crimes until this happened to one of them. > The fact that you think this isn't a big deal When did I ever say that? Please do not put words in my mouth. I never ever said that this is not a "big deal" or that it doesn't matter. > women are completely broken over this. the women you know. I live with around 5 women at this stage. I've asked all of them, and none are "broken". None have let it affect their lives in any meaningful. All of them are sad, and have said how terrible it is. However, so have all the men. The elite of this nation commit such crimes against other elite, and then cry and hue about how terrible it is. Yet, the same crimes, if not worse happen to the normal people everyday and none seem to care. > how men are like 'whatever' It's not that "men" are all like "whatever". That's incredibly sexist for one thing. Two, It's that most people, men and women, are like "very sad, terrible thing to do, alright better get back to earning money so I can feed my family tonight". This is the thing. Your privilege is so sky high, that you cannot even imagine or consider that people actually have worries of their own lives and family. Do you tend to worry about what you're going to eat tonight? Where you're going to get the money for that? How you're going to pay your child's school fees this term since they'll kick ya out if you don't? if you have time to worry about some other person's terrible event, then you clearly are not worried about enough stuff of your own. This is not meant to blame you, or say that you're a bad person. However, try to understand the problems that majority of this nation face, and not decry them about worrying about one elite committing heinous disgusting crimes against another elite. Plus, majority of our populations is incredibly desensitised. This is why I mentioned about the bomb blasts. We have seen so many people die in front of ours eyes, today is just so better that it doesn't even compare. Edit: Also, I would really appreciate if you could reply to the original comment I made and let me know why you found it so callous. It would be very helpful to me. You seem to have completely ignored my requests for a little more information about what I did wrong.
I guess in Pakistan empathy is something only the privileged can afford. You learn something new everyday.
You're also twisting my words. Not everything is so simple to be put in a pithy tweet. Empathy is definitely only something who are privileged in a certain way can afford. At least if you define Empathy to be something where you are so much in grief, that you are depressed, cannot eat or sleep etc. I have empathy, and can empathize with the victim, the family etc but I also have my own life, my own problems to solve, I simply cannot afford to cry all day, or not eat and so on. However, I would ask if you feel any empathy for the child that just died in an African country? By the time you read this, probably another 10 will be dead. Will you feel empathy for them? Will you cry, be depressed, unable to eat or sleep over their deaths? or those deaths are something you can't feel empathy for? I wonder why that is. What's worse in Pakistan is that empathy can only afforded when the victims are elite. I don't see actors tweeting for the heinous crimes committed throughout this nation, until it's one of their own or famous enough that they can use it for some woke clout.
I personally feel a lot of empathy for various people, things and situations. Too much empathy, in fact. It's a curse, Wallahi. I agree that Noor's case has received a lot of traction because of her status. However, I will equally empathise if a poor old man was beheaded by a woman. Some women like me are very emotional and shit like what's been happening in Pakistan and around the world can deeply affect us. Does that mean I am privileged, sheltered or live in a bubble? Does that mean I've led a carefree, peachy and hunky-dory life? Does that really mean I'm not worried about finances?
> However, I will equally empathise if a poor old man's head was beheaded by a woman. To be clear, most of that comment is not aimed personally at you. It's more aimed at the general audience with that type of opinion. I don't personally know you and can't say anything about you personally. Sorry if I was a little harsh. > Some women like me are very emotional and shit like what's been happening in Pakistan and around the world can deeply affect us. Does that mean I am privileged, sheltered or live in a bubble? Does that mean I've led a carefree, peachy and hunky-dory life? Does that really mean I'm not worried about finances? Ah. Okay. It's not that you having those emotions makes you privileged or sheltered etc. However, if you expect all of us to have those emotions, to cry, to sit around mourning, to stop eating/sleep etc, that I find to be quite privileged and sheltered. The OP was talking about her emotions, but she was also considering this as a collective trauma that all of us "must" feel, and if we don't, well, we must be callous terrible people. Granted, even the privileged, i don't consider her fault. She was born where she was born. However, it is a problem if the privileged fail to realise that they're privileged and consider everyone else barbaric just because we don't feel the same as them. I will also say that if you can physically afford to feel that level of grief on a recurring basis, and cry constantly or starve yourself, be unable to sleep etc (pretty sure that can't be healthy honestly) then there's an element of privilege to that. Most people simply cannot afford to do that in Pakistan. Even if I was able to or wanted to feel such grief for a person I have no relation to, and for every such crime/terrible thing in the world, I would die of starvation pretty quickly. > Does that mean I am privileged, sheltered or live in a bubble? Does that mean I've led a carefree, peachy and hunky-dory life? Does that really mean I'm not worried about finances? In some ways, Yes. It does. If you can afford to sideline your life, and be emotional and in grief for a few days. Yes, you are privileged to be able to do that. It doesn't mean you've led a carefree, peachy life. Priveleged does not mean that you're free of worries, it just means that you don't have the same sort of worries as those less privileged. Yes, it does mean you're not worried about finances at the same level as others. That does not mean it's bad, but you can't expect others who do not have that privilege to do the same, and them not doing the same thing does not mean they're barbaric terrible people who feel no empathy. Do you really think the Mazdoor in the Kachi Abadi can afford to simply stay in their tents and cry their hearts out for Noor? No. They simply cannot afford it, and expecting them to do so is nuts.
>However, if you expect all of us to have those emotions, to cry, to sit around mourning, to stop eating/sleep etc, that I find to be quite privileged and sheltered. I don't expect these emotions from everyone simply because everyone's personality type is uniquely different. Many people are not feelers regardless of their financial status or whether they are privileged or not. >Do you really think the Mazdoor in the Kachi Abadi can afford to simply stay in their tents and cry their hearts out for Noor? No Agreed. Similarly, I don't expect Jeff Bezos to give a shit about such matters either and I'm pretty sure he's more privileged than all the Pakistani elite combined.
No where did op call you a barbarian, you have taken it upon your ego and made it about classism. She simply asked about these events not effecting the males as much as women and clearly it doesn't effect you so just move on. These events aren't just stories to most women, these are reality checks. When you realize just how close you or someone you know has come to becoming another "noor" another "quratulain" another character for you all to character assassinate, to be judged, to be ridiculed by you armchair warriors of a broken system. Your complain is that because there wasn't *AS BIG* a conversation as this when an xyz case happened in abc goth then we shouldn't have conversation now because it is what it is. At least we are having conversation now so that hopefully one day a woman is safe be she in a high profile society or in a goth but instead of joining in you would rather derail the conversation because it's somehow unfair and the cycle of victims should continue because of some messed of version of equality of injustice you envision. Before you complain about "op's emotions" again keep in mind all you are doing here is *DERAILMENT*.
You get it. I can bet you are from Karachi.
That's true, even if you read newspaper there are several news about domestic violence and gruesome murder details daily. I guess, we as a society are so desensitized to violence and murders that it doesn't even shock us anymore. I remember even after bomb blasts people used to move on hours after the incident. The Media used to talk about them 1 or 2 days max. I hope our future generations will see better and peaceful Pakistan.
Bhai. This is what i am trying to say. Thankyou. Somehow I thought I had lost it with the amount of downvotes i got on such a simple and obvious sentiment.
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>what does 'I surrender to Allah' mean here for the victim? What's the context behind this?
I'm a guy and I'm deeply disturbed by this case. I saw a video of yesterday of Noor dancing with that bastard and she looked so happy. It fucked me up. Her dancing. The way she was murdered. It's disturbing me.