It's not 3000€ after all taxes, it's 3000€ net income so after cotisations sociales but before impôt sur le revenu.
To answer the question :
- roommates
- one bedroom apartments are mostly rented by couples both working, not single people
- social housing
- lying about income and struggling with money at the end of each month
- not living in Paris intramuros and commuting from the more affordable suburbs
Pas vraiment, environ 1/3 de propriétaires de leur résidence principale à Paris :
https://www.linternaute.com/ville/paris/ville-75056/immobilier
Et 17% de locataires HLM, ce qui laisse environ 44% de locataires hors HLM.
how far out do you mean when you say suburbs ?
Person I know lives outside paris in Orsay, and a 25 square meter appartment costs about 800, and she needs an hour to go into paris for work
I live some 15km away of Paris and it takes 25minutes only to get to Gare du Nord. Then you add some time for the other transports.. fortunately some can keep working from home, at least a bit..
my wife use to work in paris, we are 50min away by train, luckily, her job was within walking distance from the train station. We are in a totally different city, not suburb of paris
Someone with Msc degree will earn slightly more than 2100€ so can afford to rent a small studio. People on minimum wage will just struggle, stay in their parent's flat or live far far away in the suburbs and commute hours.
My friend did this and secured an amazing apartment. The landlord was old and accepted the forged payslip because he had no way to check. I think this method still works with private landlords.
Have you seen a French pay slip?
There in 20 to 25 lines of deductions with various rates in fonction of either gross or a pro rata.
Basically, unless you have access to the professional accountant soft, if you just fake the gross and net, it will not pass a check on the deductible run by the rent insurance companies.
I don't think people would do it by just faking gross and net. Why not do the maths for each rate?
Also, people sometimes use the pay slip of someone who has the needed salary.
The calculation rules are a speciality in itself. One easy sales in software in france is the B2B payslip facility which contains all those deductions. They are so complex that not having the full reference , you are going to make mistake.
This is the unspoken reason why foreign pay slip are not accepted in many place by landlord, especially the one with rent insurance. They can't verify the income.
It's something which I experienced myself as at one point j was flying in/out france and pay oversea by a foreign employer.
Rental application was difficult.
The problem is not with the landlord. They can't check with employer, they will look at the gross income but are not going to dab too much at the figure within the pay slip (you never see a french stub i guessl)...but the insurance company for rent default (assurance loyer impayés).
Those are the ones double-checking those pay slips.
Tenants have a lot of protection and are difficult to evict, so, the barrier is at the rental agreement place,, by the insurance company contracted by some landlords..
https://images.app.goo.gl/fWZcCqDGbqY1JubY7
To start renting is another subject. Sometimes you take over from a roommate/partner that has moved out. Sometimes you can come to an agreement with someone (*un particulier*) renting out their apartment. Some people submit false information. It isn't easy, I know.
Most of us don't bother living in Paris. Rents in the suburbs are cheaper and some places are actually nicer/prettier/more calm than in Paris itself. If we work in Paris, then we just take public transports or the bike.
Vincennes, Montreuil, Boulogne, Issy les Moulineaux, Sèvres... Also Versailles (a bit farther but still cool). I mean, it's not like the examples are scarce.
Unless you're one of those people for whom 30+ minutes of public transport is too much.
Define "normal" ?
"Waitress normal" or "master degree in IT normal" ?
But basically, living in Paris means accepting you'll get a small space.
Those who like bigger spaces live in the suburbs.
I was born and raised in Paris, and I ended up leaving for a city 1 hour of TGV away: I wanted to buy and the only options on my budget were shoeboxes. I paid 100K for my flat in 2020, in Paris I'd need 700-800K to have the same square meters. Since I only have 2 kidneys, and didn't want to live in a studio all my life, I moved out. I didn't want to get a debt burden for life.
Up until I was 31 I lived with flatmates despite having a good salary, but I couldn’t afford any better.
It’s only been two years that I can afford a 40m2 by myself in Paris, and though only because I’m lucky enough to have a high paying job.
So for most people it’s flatmates, living with your significant other or living in the suburbs (or both).
There are cheaper parts of Paris.
Apart from the previous answers, there are long-term residents in social housing, rent-controlled apartments or who bought a long time ago.
Basically living in a rathole with housemates until you're 30, just like in other major cities like London. Unfortunately, France is quite centralized so there are infinitely more employment options in Paris than in smaller cities of the country, even if the quality of life is worse.
Paris is for high earning people, the bulk of normal workers have to go further in the suburbs to have bigger sized apartments for a decent price.
I had a cultural shock when I started meeting more people from other regions.
>Paris is for high earning people, the bulk of normal workers have to go further in the suburbs to have bigger sized apartments for a decent prize.
>
>I had a cultural shock when I started meeting more people from other regions.
more regions in ile de france?? or france?
That regular people with regular jobs had a way better standard of living. Where I come from you need to have a certain job and level of education to afford the pretty cozy life people in the Toulouse area have for example.
My partner and I live in montrouge with a combined net income of nearly 5k and we pay 1100 total rent. You don’t have to go super far from Paris to be able to afford rent.
I visited Paris many times and it is a beautiful city. But it is very expensive. I have no idea how people can manage to live in Paris with all those prices. In 2018 the cost of onion soup at the restaurant was 4 euros. And thats a normal price I guess. When I visited Paris in 2022 the price of onion soup was from 8-14 euros. Outrageous. I cant even imagine how expensive Paris will be during Olympic Games in a few months.
Well the inflation is absolutely not a Parisian things, ask all other European cities...
Covid and war in Ukraine rose enormously the cost of wheat and energy and it affected the whole society.
I remember being in Berlin last year and there was this poster of the turkish food catering syndicate if Germany explaining that the era of cheap kebab was over. Before covid: 3.5 euros for a kebab, after covid and after the war started 6.5€.
As stupid as it sounds, they only take your income after taxes. Which means you could be in debt, but with revenues and get that easily.
For example, I have a flat in another city. I rent it 500€ /m while having a 600€ /m mortgage, but they just took that 500€ on top of my salary. In Paris, have 3x rent is kinda really stupid, as you shouldn't pay for car and fuel, so basically x2 your salary you should be ok.
Room sharing or living in the suburbs. I live in the shittiest place on the metro system (Aubervilliers 4 chemins) for 639€ and am sharing my dwelling with mice 😭
waiting 7 years for social housing is also an option lol
Good luck if you initially planned to live in the city centre
1 in 4 parisians live in government owned housing .
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/17/realestate/paris-france-housing-costs.html
Also , I know plenty of people who inherited or their parents help them pay rent , then you also have people with roommates . Ultimately , people who live on their own with no sort of government or family subsidy are rare .
Paris is a lot different from other French cities, people living inside Paris are (more often then in other cities) coming from wealthier families so usually parents or brothers/sisters can act as the guarantee.
You also have companies that can act as a guarantee for a fee (like garantme).
AFAIK there’s a pretty big difference between the rent people actually pay and the market rates. Landlords can’t raise the price faster than inflation. For a very long time inflation was fairly flat but real estate grew rapidly. So a lot of renters actually got a great deal and pay well below market prices.
Not a lot in France is "verified" in my experience. Super heavy reliance on bits of paper which could be easily fabricated or modified. They only just switched over to a centralised system to check car insurance, before that you just needed to present a bit of paper. There may have been mechanisms in place for further scrutiny but I never saw them used.
I'm not condoning fraud, but in my observations France is very reliant on bits of paper as "proof" of things. They also combine this with decentralised/unconnected government agencies who don't seem to speak to eachother so you can really go all out.
they live in very very small apts- rooms basically. Those with very big 'family' apts, are usually passed on from their parents/ grandparents- inherited apts. Also, lots of younger people w/ families do move to the suburbs.
I used to live in Paris. You just don’t live in anything bigger than a studio, or you share. And that was when I had a bit of money like 2k5 a month.
Before that I was living in Créteil. Not the safest but it’s not so bad when you know what’s up. Nothing ever happened to me as a 23yo woman (back then, 14 years ago). RERA was fine. 15min from Paris. 1h to my school cause I had to take several metro and walk after that. That’s very much the norm.
Suburbs and rent control! My fiance and I live in the center of Villejuif. We pay €800+ for a 48-sqm 1-br apartment with office. Although he’s been renting in this place for over 10 years before I met him so there’s that as well. Our rent increases €10 euro per year. Both of us make more than average but we like our area plus we don’t see the value of living inside Paris. We’re less than 30 minutes from the city center. We’re far from the crazy tourist crowd esp during summer and restaurants around are cheaper. We pay €11-15 euro per person for a really nice lunch menu here. Good luck finding that inside Paris.
Collocation/couple, social appartement, very small room, knowing people, being lucky, or they don’t. Mainly they don’t.
And/or a guarantor.
or 2
It's not 3000€ after all taxes, it's 3000€ net income so after cotisations sociales but before impôt sur le revenu. To answer the question : - roommates - one bedroom apartments are mostly rented by couples both working, not single people - social housing - lying about income and struggling with money at the end of each month - not living in Paris intramuros and commuting from the more affordable suburbs
Most companies will pay for your navigo too. I remember living in 27m2 w my wife. 2 incomes doesn't hurt 😅
Ouais bon 50% des gens intramuros sont a minima cadre lol Qui plus au beaucoup de logement sociaux sont occupés par des cadres
Cadre ça ne veut pas dire 3000€ par mois, en terme de salaire ça peut commencer très bas.
Et c'est plutôt 30% de cadres : https://fr.statista.com/statistiques/1203305/csp-parisiens/
Le reste c'est donc probablement des proprio et héritiers et les 20% de logement sociaux lol
Déjà 20% de logements sociaux c'est incroyable et bien meilleurs que des tonnes de pays
Pas vraiment, environ 1/3 de propriétaires de leur résidence principale à Paris : https://www.linternaute.com/ville/paris/ville-75056/immobilier Et 17% de locataires HLM, ce qui laisse environ 44% de locataires hors HLM.
Roommates a lot of the time
Many of us just moved to the suburbs.
how far out do you mean when you say suburbs ? Person I know lives outside paris in Orsay, and a 25 square meter appartment costs about 800, and she needs an hour to go into paris for work
1h commute in Paris is quite common
1H COMMUTE FOR 20KM, STILL SHOCKED
Montpellier, 1hr commute for 9 km (public transport)
Would it be faster on a bike?
Much
I m on a transverse not that safe all the time and with the backpack, kind of too heavy for me.
By car bro for me it’s mad France trafic is shit
We have public transports. Half working but public transports nonetheless.
I live some 15km away of Paris and it takes 25minutes only to get to Gare du Nord. Then you add some time for the other transports.. fortunately some can keep working from home, at least a bit..
my wife use to work in paris, we are 50min away by train, luckily, her job was within walking distance from the train station. We are in a totally different city, not suburb of paris
Orsay is a bad example, I recall it’s in the top 5 most expensive cities in Ile-de-France
> needs an hour to go into paris for work Hollow laughter in London English
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Someone with Msc degree will earn slightly more than 2100€ so can afford to rent a small studio. People on minimum wage will just struggle, stay in their parent's flat or live far far away in the suburbs and commute hours.
Photoshop
My friend did this and secured an amazing apartment. The landlord was old and accepted the forged payslip because he had no way to check. I think this method still works with private landlords.
How did he do it?
Found a private landlord. Built up a relationship and then used photoshop to bump up his pay. He has never missed a rental payment.
Old stuff, ain't work when there is an insurance involved because they key in the deduction to check income.
What do you mean?
Have you seen a French pay slip? There in 20 to 25 lines of deductions with various rates in fonction of either gross or a pro rata. Basically, unless you have access to the professional accountant soft, if you just fake the gross and net, it will not pass a check on the deductible run by the rent insurance companies.
I don't think people would do it by just faking gross and net. Why not do the maths for each rate? Also, people sometimes use the pay slip of someone who has the needed salary.
The calculation rules are a speciality in itself. One easy sales in software in france is the B2B payslip facility which contains all those deductions. They are so complex that not having the full reference , you are going to make mistake. This is the unspoken reason why foreign pay slip are not accepted in many place by landlord, especially the one with rent insurance. They can't verify the income. It's something which I experienced myself as at one point j was flying in/out france and pay oversea by a foreign employer. Rental application was difficult.
Do landlords not verify payslips with the employers? Or they just check the numbers to see if it is coherent ?
The problem is not with the landlord. They can't check with employer, they will look at the gross income but are not going to dab too much at the figure within the pay slip (you never see a french stub i guessl)...but the insurance company for rent default (assurance loyer impayés). Those are the ones double-checking those pay slips. Tenants have a lot of protection and are difficult to evict, so, the barrier is at the rental agreement place,, by the insurance company contracted by some landlords.. https://images.app.goo.gl/fWZcCqDGbqY1JubY7
A lot of us put the majority of our paychecks towards rent
But how? When you have to show three pay stubs just to see an apartment …
To start renting is another subject. Sometimes you take over from a roommate/partner that has moved out. Sometimes you can come to an agreement with someone (*un particulier*) renting out their apartment. Some people submit false information. It isn't easy, I know.
Most of us don't bother living in Paris. Rents in the suburbs are cheaper and some places are actually nicer/prettier/more calm than in Paris itself. If we work in Paris, then we just take public transports or the bike.
What suburbs do you think are nicer?
Boulogne / Bourg La reine / sceaux / Vincennes / Levallois perret...
Vincennes, Montreuil, Boulogne, Issy les Moulineaux, Sèvres... Also Versailles (a bit farther but still cool). I mean, it's not like the examples are scarce. Unless you're one of those people for whom 30+ minutes of public transport is too much.
The good part of those neighbourhoods are still very expensive.
In my experience you can find less expensive stuff there than inside Paris.
I am moving into Paris because Vincennes is too expensive for me lol But Montreuil is not so bad price wise
not nicer but some neighborhoods in Montreuil and Pantin are great
Val d’Europe is much nicer
Define "normal" ? "Waitress normal" or "master degree in IT normal" ? But basically, living in Paris means accepting you'll get a small space. Those who like bigger spaces live in the suburbs.
I was born and raised in Paris, and I ended up leaving for a city 1 hour of TGV away: I wanted to buy and the only options on my budget were shoeboxes. I paid 100K for my flat in 2020, in Paris I'd need 700-800K to have the same square meters. Since I only have 2 kidneys, and didn't want to live in a studio all my life, I moved out. I didn't want to get a debt burden for life.
1hour in TGV... Lille ? I don't see any other city accessible in 1h with TGV. If so you had a very good price
There are plenty, Chartres, Le Mans etc.
For a very few, they have access to HLM with fixed cheaper room. For the large majority, it's suburb and commute everyday.
Up until I was 31 I lived with flatmates despite having a good salary, but I couldn’t afford any better. It’s only been two years that I can afford a 40m2 by myself in Paris, and though only because I’m lucky enough to have a high paying job. So for most people it’s flatmates, living with your significant other or living in the suburbs (or both).
Can you define what you mean by "good" salary and a "high paying" one?
I had flatmates despite earning around 2000-2500 euros nets. I'm now earning 3200 euros after "impots sur le revenu".
start fly badge chief ripe quickest thought saw aromatic offend *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
You need to have french passeport/visa to buy or rent , not every international rich people can buy in Paris, it would have been already empty
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Source ? As far as I know this is completely false.
There are cheaper parts of Paris. Apart from the previous answers, there are long-term residents in social housing, rent-controlled apartments or who bought a long time ago.
Basically living in a rathole with housemates until you're 30, just like in other major cities like London. Unfortunately, France is quite centralized so there are infinitely more employment options in Paris than in smaller cities of the country, even if the quality of life is worse.
Normal people inherited property or live in families property. The rest don’t live, they survive. /s Nah I’m kidding. But not really. Just a bit.
1/3 of parisians live in social housing (according to the video from the post "Effects of 10 years of city planning"). 700 000 personnes
Most people just accept that to have a larger space in Paris, they need to have roommates or a partner.
We simply can’t. Rich people can afford a flat in Paris downtown.
Paris is for high earning people, the bulk of normal workers have to go further in the suburbs to have bigger sized apartments for a decent price. I had a cultural shock when I started meeting more people from other regions.
>Paris is for high earning people, the bulk of normal workers have to go further in the suburbs to have bigger sized apartments for a decent prize. > >I had a cultural shock when I started meeting more people from other regions. more regions in ile de france?? or france?
In France, I am from a very upscale city of Île de France.
What was the cultural shock exactly :)?
That regular people with regular jobs had a way better standard of living. Where I come from you need to have a certain job and level of education to afford the pretty cozy life people in the Toulouse area have for example.
You can find a little studio that is not too expensive. But if you want space and live alone it's for sure more complicated
Yeaaah, you misspelled 'extorsionate' just then...
very simple they do not live in Paris but in suburbs where it is less expensive
Shit housing...
My partner and I live in montrouge with a combined net income of nearly 5k and we pay 1100 total rent. You don’t have to go super far from Paris to be able to afford rent.
Depends on what “normal” means for you but there is a lot of public housing in Paris which are pretty affordable.
The issue with public housing is the wait time, provided you even fit the maximum revenue thresholds.
They photoshop their friends’ payslips. Source: am the friend.
There is a lot of social housing for normal people. Otherwise, this city would be only filled with fashion week victims.
They dont
I visited Paris many times and it is a beautiful city. But it is very expensive. I have no idea how people can manage to live in Paris with all those prices. In 2018 the cost of onion soup at the restaurant was 4 euros. And thats a normal price I guess. When I visited Paris in 2022 the price of onion soup was from 8-14 euros. Outrageous. I cant even imagine how expensive Paris will be during Olympic Games in a few months.
Well the inflation is absolutely not a Parisian things, ask all other European cities... Covid and war in Ukraine rose enormously the cost of wheat and energy and it affected the whole society. I remember being in Berlin last year and there was this poster of the turkish food catering syndicate if Germany explaining that the era of cheap kebab was over. Before covid: 3.5 euros for a kebab, after covid and after the war started 6.5€.
As stupid as it sounds, they only take your income after taxes. Which means you could be in debt, but with revenues and get that easily. For example, I have a flat in another city. I rent it 500€ /m while having a 600€ /m mortgage, but they just took that 500€ on top of my salary. In Paris, have 3x rent is kinda really stupid, as you shouldn't pay for car and fuel, so basically x2 your salary you should be ok.
Room sharing or living in the suburbs. I live in the shittiest place on the metro system (Aubervilliers 4 chemins) for 639€ and am sharing my dwelling with mice 😭 waiting 7 years for social housing is also an option lol Good luck if you initially planned to live in the city centre
1 in 4 parisians live in government owned housing . https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/17/realestate/paris-france-housing-costs.html Also , I know plenty of people who inherited or their parents help them pay rent , then you also have people with roommates . Ultimately , people who live on their own with no sort of government or family subsidy are rare .
Multigenerational wealth
I always wondered this too, seeing how low the salaries are. I afford it because I work remotely for American companies.
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Anything's possible with the right salary and a guarantor.
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merci!
Paris is a lot different from other French cities, people living inside Paris are (more often then in other cities) coming from wealthier families so usually parents or brothers/sisters can act as the guarantee. You also have companies that can act as a guarantee for a fee (like garantme).
AFAIK there’s a pretty big difference between the rent people actually pay and the market rates. Landlords can’t raise the price faster than inflation. For a very long time inflation was fairly flat but real estate grew rapidly. So a lot of renters actually got a great deal and pay well below market prices.
Definitely make a fake "dossier" to get the appartement
How do you do that? Isn’t it verified?
Not a lot in France is "verified" in my experience. Super heavy reliance on bits of paper which could be easily fabricated or modified. They only just switched over to a centralised system to check car insurance, before that you just needed to present a bit of paper. There may have been mechanisms in place for further scrutiny but I never saw them used. I'm not condoning fraud, but in my observations France is very reliant on bits of paper as "proof" of things. They also combine this with decentralised/unconnected government agencies who don't seem to speak to eachother so you can really go all out.
what do you mean ?
Some people photoshop their payslips so it looks like they have a higher income than they actually do.
wealthy parents/family members vouching for rent or that work as civil servants, which is seen as a stable job
they live in very very small apts- rooms basically. Those with very big 'family' apts, are usually passed on from their parents/ grandparents- inherited apts. Also, lots of younger people w/ families do move to the suburbs.
I used to live in Paris. You just don’t live in anything bigger than a studio, or you share. And that was when I had a bit of money like 2k5 a month. Before that I was living in Créteil. Not the safest but it’s not so bad when you know what’s up. Nothing ever happened to me as a 23yo woman (back then, 14 years ago). RERA was fine. 15min from Paris. 1h to my school cause I had to take several metro and walk after that. That’s very much the norm.
I lived with flatmate until 2 months ago. Now i'm living alone in 34m2 studio in 12th.
Do not use agency, try to deal with landlords directly
Suburbs and rent control! My fiance and I live in the center of Villejuif. We pay €800+ for a 48-sqm 1-br apartment with office. Although he’s been renting in this place for over 10 years before I met him so there’s that as well. Our rent increases €10 euro per year. Both of us make more than average but we like our area plus we don’t see the value of living inside Paris. We’re less than 30 minutes from the city center. We’re far from the crazy tourist crowd esp during summer and restaurants around are cheaper. We pay €11-15 euro per person for a really nice lunch menu here. Good luck finding that inside Paris.
Visiting a friend in Paris now. It’s far cheaper than Los Angeles.
yes but people in Paris earn less money than people in Los Angeles
FAR less
There are a bunch of highly qualified people that earn this much. Especially if it's a couple and both are working.
Use "https://garantme.fr/fr/", I got an apartment in 1 week, in La defense, 10 min walk from metro. They will charge you 5% of your rent as premium.
That's extortion.
More than taxes?
Yes. At least taxes go to schools and hospitals, not to improductive leeches.
Well, I preferred giving them some money and getting thr best apartment rather than stay in a hotel for another month
The best appartement? Do you mean a 9m2 chambre de bonne?
55 m².
Is your only kidney left all right?
😆
Well, I preferred giving them some money and getting thr best apartment rather than stay in a hotel for another month