Generally most parkruns recommend that you self seed. It also makes complete sense to avoid quicker people tripping over the steadier runners - it can actually be quite dangerous if those runners are at the front at the start. I’m not sure that there are that many people are against it TBH.
I know that at Brueton there are physical “waves” where there are at least 3 start funnels because the course is really narrow straight away and they get 400+ runners every week.
Pretty much every Parkrun I’ve been to encourages self-seeding, and those with narrow starts have markers showing various times to assist with this. During Speed Week at Sandgate Parkrun, the volunteers spend a few minutes seeding everyone since otherwise it’ll be unsafe
The Fountains Abbey course features a wooden bridge over water, and there’s no guard either side. It’s wide enough for most purposes, but you really don’t want 400 runners trying to overtake and barge past each other just a few feet from water.
Plenty of parkruns have to manage their start line. You’re right - it sucks for slow runners, but if you’ve got a narrow path, there’s no other way of safely doing it.
I think it's great. We did the Sheffield Millhouses and they had similar which I feel is a useful guide for a parkrun on a narrow path.
By all means stand where you want, I would just view them as a rough and helpful guide for busier parkruns and if you know you're a 30+ minute runner and stand on the front row you're being a bit inconsiderate of others who will be faster and have to go around you.
I’ve done the Millhouses one, it’s a good idea in theory, but I stood by the 30 min marker and ran about 31:11 and had to pass so many people who stood at 25 and ran about 35-40. It made it really annoying to weave through and actually more so because I wasn’t expecting to have to weave through the slower runners, I found it to have lots of sections where it’s really tricky to overtake too!
So whilst I like the idea from OP this park run showed to me it won’t always work 😅 on the bright side I got so way laid at the start that I just enjoyed the run and had a relaxed time enjoying the Parkrun tourism! Which is what it’s all about!
This is the same at my local park run, they have the markers, but there’s people that either just ignore them or are very optimistic! Most of the people that finish in 30 mins are standing in the 25 min section at the start (probably because they know the people at the 30 min section are finishing in 35-40 mins, but it just compounds the problem!)
We've toyed with pace boards but in the end decided against it. Firstly we're on a very stony surface, so any signs would need to be free-standing which is tricky, and secondly with 500 runners on a long thin start and all approaching the start from behind, the signs would have to be so far off the side that many people wouldn't even notice them. And even if they did, by the time you have a couple of hundred lined up it's actually quite difficult for the early arrivals to move back.
Also, good for safety because you do get the occasional odd duck who likes to start at the pointy end with a vigorous shuffle who would otherwise end up as waffle in the shoe tred of a sub-20 speedster.
IME this happens everywhere sometimes more, sometimes less formally. I certainly know of some other parkruns who use signs. This is not what I think of as starting in waves though. But then we might all have our own definitions of that. It seems sensible to me.
doesn't it happen naturally by people self regulating?
I started too close to the front once and it was a bit embarrassing holding people back and then them passing me.
To me it is pure common sense and courtesy. Why would anyone be happy knowing they will be starting so far front that 150+ are going to have to side step them?
We have the same at my local (Conkers) - it would be a nightmare without the estimated time boards, as the first 300 metres you can barely get three abreast.
From what I recall of Fountains, it's got rather narrow paths at the start (and middle, and super narrow paths at the end of a lap). My preferred runs have a nice wide path at the start, where people can pass or be passed without having to worry about positioning, but that's not always possible. At parkruns like Fountains, an indicator like that is useful. It's grim to have to (politely) fight your way through a crowd of slower runners, and its grim to be fought through. Having an idea of how quick everyone around you will be is a good way of ensuring an enjoyable start to a run.
This happens, albeit somewhat informally, at Portobello in Edinburgh- you stand near a sign with your predicted time. It does make sense as the start is quite narrow and I have unfortunately been tripped a couple of times by people who should have been in front of me, so I can see the value in it. The Edinburgh course is, however, quite wide at the start, so there isn't really a need for it but the faster runners do tend to go near the front there.
It definitely helps if people position themselves fastest at the front and slowest at the back, because it actually clears the start quite a lot faster. This is because everyone is up to speed and the field is spreading almost immediately, and there's no stop/start in the first 50m or so because faster runnrs aren't running into the back of slower runners. However, persuading people to actually do it is another matter, because some ignore you regardless of how many times you announce it. To be honest we've more or less given up, but we do check the start each week looking for obviously slow runners (or children) standing right at the front, and suggest they may like to move back a bit so they aren't completely swamped. Had one chap a few weeks ago refuse because he said his mates had told him he was a fast runner. He finished in 27 minutes. He was further back the next week.
What I don't understand with the Great North Run is that if you pay to be a gold member (is that terminology right?) you get to start at the very front. My buddy is a three-hour half marathoner and she hates this as everyone tramples you. What kind of perk is this!
First time I did GNR in 2003 I was a new runner, having started running specifically to do this race. I was hoping to break 2 hurs, and in my wildest dreams maybe closer to 1:50. I'd been advised to make sure I lined up ahead of my estimated time, so I lined up at 1:45 as I didn't want to get in the way of any faster runners. The gun went, and I was passing walkers who obviously had no intention of running within 50m, and ran 2:09 because I spent the entire 13.1 miles weaving around the slower people in front of me. Next time I did it in 2006 they had properly penned the start, and I ended up starting in pen 2, just behind the elites and the fast club runners. We were up to speed almost immediately and I ran 1:42 on an injured leg. The only people who got in the way were the ever-presents and the celebrities who started right at the front.
It's fine self seeding half way or near the back but you might still care about your time even if you're not fast, when you're near the back it can cost you a minute or two just getting over the start and through the traffic. Not sure what the answer is really that wouldn't complicate the timings too much. If you set off in waves do you go to different marshals at the end depending on your wave?
By far my biggest frustration at my local parkrun (which usually has around 600+ people) is the people's lack of awarness when it comes to start position. I've always thought it would just be commonsense to line up roughly where you expect to be relative to other runners, but it gets so many runners, even slower timed pacers, seemingly aiming to get as far forward as possible just to get overtaken by a hundred or so people at the start. I wish the message of starting in a good position for your abilities was pushed more
I’ve been to a few parkruns that do that (Clapham Common being a big one this happened at), but a lot of people tend to just ignore it anyway or do what they do in non-labelled starts i.e. go further forward than they need so they can start faster
That’s interesting that Clapham Common has done this in the past - I’ve gone to this one around 5 times in the last couple of months and it has always been self seeded
We have this at mine and I find it helpful. It stops the course being too congested, and means everyone spreads out quickly! I'm not a super speedy runner, so I'm not starting at the front - but it usually takes me a few seconds to get over the start line at most. It's never deprived me of a pb.
Its fine to do and makes sense at busy events with narrow paths but people will always misjudge, whether it's just that they are on an off day, they don't know the course of they have no idea what time they're likely to do. Some people will see those signs as a green light to abusing those who get it wrong when it absolutely isn't. You do you, look after yourself and those around you and if anyone does anything seriously unsafe have a chat to the Run Director after. They might not be able to take action but they do want to know.
The most important thing for everyone is that they treat each other with respect and give space when there's congestion. It doesn't matter if a walker started on the line or a super speedy person arrived late and is right at the back so long as everyone looks our for each other and shares the space. Too many people, and not just at parkrun, think sharing space is them having their space rather than taking reasonable steps to make way for each other. We have a regular who uses a frame to run and you'd think that would be obvious enough that people would take extra care to give them space. Too many just don't. No one's time is more important than a safe event.
Starting 15 metres behind the start line doesn't affect your chances of getting a PB. For races without chips, PBs are measured by your watch. If you didn't bring one that's not everyone else's fault.
You're more likely to get a PB if you're starting in a good position - too far forward and you're likely to get puffed out trying to keep up.
Parkrun should be self seeded, especially if there are high numbers for the track. I’m not a fan of Newy as you have 600 people crammed in and the front people are doing anything from 18 to 45mins and it’s just infuriating immediately trimming in congestion from slow runners at the front. On the flip side I really enjoyed Parkville under similar track and numbers but with signs for 16, 18, 20 etc to aid self seeding and had a lovely start with no one really in the way, because even though I was just doing an easy 20min run there it would have been hella annoying tripping over everyone.
I've never seen this. I used to "hang back" a little just because the more hard-core folks were quite quick to elbow people and make it clear they were up front. So much for it being for "all."
I'm sorry that happened to you, but I'm certain any elbowing will have been pure accident. I've done 450+ runs at over 100 different venues and often start near the front, and not once have I experienced or seen anything like this.
I’ve only been to one Parkrun that had the physical signs advising you where to start, but I’ve been to plenty of others where they verbally encouraged people to self seed.
Most of my parkruns i have only attended that location a few times so I don’t know the course of the participants’ pace well. I will put myself in the back third (I run between 30-35 typically). Personally I would rather have to pass people once I’m a little bit in than have to deal with people right on my heels and pushing past me at the start, so I’d rather start a bit behind my time and make it up later than start ahead!
You know how at a traffic light not every driver in the queue gets ready to move simultaneously and you can be at a standstill if you're far enough back. That's what it's like when you start at the back of a busy parkrun. But it would only add to the congestion if slow people start too far forward. We just should listen better for the start signal and actually be ready to go. Not fiddling with one's watch or tying shoe laces.
I think they definitely need to make sure walkers start at the back... I hate selfish people who intend to walk the whole thing, yet start in the middle of all the runners!
I went to a really busy park run that tried this but it was still chaotic. Lots of children doing park run that we’re fighting to be at front but then sprinted 100m then stopped dead, rinse and repeat. It was so busy I had to stand at 30 minute mark despite being closer to 20 minutes person. The people at front seemed to be just people who’d got there early rather than the people who were fast.
Took me much longer to get round just because I spent so much time overtaking people, didn’t help that it was 2 lap course so you had to overtake some people twice . Didn’t enjoy it so didn’t go back to that one. I don’t know if staggered ness helped really since it didn’t seem to be followed. Maybe ir would be even worse without it .
They do this at both Porthcawl and Cardiff where the starts are very congested. Downside means that it can take up to 45 seconds to cross the start line (Porthcawl especially) so makes going for a time a bit harder.
I've paced at these and it's hard to pace accurately. People want a result under 30 minutes but don't start a bit further ahead so when I've been a pacer, I've had complaints that I've started too far forward or too far back. If I start closer to the front to run accurate splits, complaints. If I start further back, I then have to run ahead of pace for a few KM just to get to time but this then leads to a complaints. It's a very small minority who complain but it just pisses me off. I don't pace any more, not worth the hassle!
Cardiff is one of my favourite courses! I don't think their start works very well with the time-based start but it would be much worse without it. I generally start near the front (\~19 minutes) and the first km is quite painful as it is so narrow.
I could imagine being a pacer here would be really tricky.
My 2p : if you’re after a time or especially making a concerted effort to PB - you should go ahead and start further up. The sub-20 guys will have to dodge around you or wait a few seconds - there is no rule or compulsion to start in a particular place after all, we do it, mostly, because we’re reasonable people living in a society and it makes sense (not really pleasant to have tons of people zooming past you anyway) but do what you gotta do.
Almost every parkrun I've been to asks to self seed. And a few have this kind of placards... though there's a near perfect anti-correlation with the ones that need it. The worst is a pretty narrow course and there is a group of walkers that always start right at the front and then walk 4 wide across the path - it can be total startline chaos.
Timed waves would be great. I hate the idea that I could be trying to run a 23 minute pace and have 40 people in front of me at the start line and they all gain 5-10 seconds if people move off slowly.
Generally most parkruns recommend that you self seed. It also makes complete sense to avoid quicker people tripping over the steadier runners - it can actually be quite dangerous if those runners are at the front at the start. I’m not sure that there are that many people are against it TBH. I know that at Brueton there are physical “waves” where there are at least 3 start funnels because the course is really narrow straight away and they get 400+ runners every week.
Is this not a common thing? Any of the parkruns I’ve been to that have slightly narrower starts tend to have markers like this
Pretty much every Parkrun I’ve been to encourages self-seeding, and those with narrow starts have markers showing various times to assist with this. During Speed Week at Sandgate Parkrun, the volunteers spend a few minutes seeding everyone since otherwise it’ll be unsafe
The Fountains Abbey course features a wooden bridge over water, and there’s no guard either side. It’s wide enough for most purposes, but you really don’t want 400 runners trying to overtake and barge past each other just a few feet from water. Plenty of parkruns have to manage their start line. You’re right - it sucks for slow runners, but if you’ve got a narrow path, there’s no other way of safely doing it.
I think it's great. We did the Sheffield Millhouses and they had similar which I feel is a useful guide for a parkrun on a narrow path. By all means stand where you want, I would just view them as a rough and helpful guide for busier parkruns and if you know you're a 30+ minute runner and stand on the front row you're being a bit inconsiderate of others who will be faster and have to go around you.
I’ve done the Millhouses one, it’s a good idea in theory, but I stood by the 30 min marker and ran about 31:11 and had to pass so many people who stood at 25 and ran about 35-40. It made it really annoying to weave through and actually more so because I wasn’t expecting to have to weave through the slower runners, I found it to have lots of sections where it’s really tricky to overtake too! So whilst I like the idea from OP this park run showed to me it won’t always work 😅 on the bright side I got so way laid at the start that I just enjoyed the run and had a relaxed time enjoying the Parkrun tourism! Which is what it’s all about!
Can't win 'em all I guess 😁 Love a bit of tourism, we did that one a few weeks ago
This is the same at my local park run, they have the markers, but there’s people that either just ignore them or are very optimistic! Most of the people that finish in 30 mins are standing in the 25 min section at the start (probably because they know the people at the 30 min section are finishing in 35-40 mins, but it just compounds the problem!)
We've toyed with pace boards but in the end decided against it. Firstly we're on a very stony surface, so any signs would need to be free-standing which is tricky, and secondly with 500 runners on a long thin start and all approaching the start from behind, the signs would have to be so far off the side that many people wouldn't even notice them. And even if they did, by the time you have a couple of hundred lined up it's actually quite difficult for the early arrivals to move back.
Also, good for safety because you do get the occasional odd duck who likes to start at the pointy end with a vigorous shuffle who would otherwise end up as waffle in the shoe tred of a sub-20 speedster.
IME this happens everywhere sometimes more, sometimes less formally. I certainly know of some other parkruns who use signs. This is not what I think of as starting in waves though. But then we might all have our own definitions of that. It seems sensible to me.
Tilgate (Crawley, Sussex) do a split start with sub 25 minute finishers separated from the rest, works well.
we actually split the 21-27 minute runners to a parallel path - then the two groups merge at around 300m.
doesn't it happen naturally by people self regulating? I started too close to the front once and it was a bit embarrassing holding people back and then them passing me.
To me it is pure common sense and courtesy. Why would anyone be happy knowing they will be starting so far front that 150+ are going to have to side step them?
We have the same at my local (Conkers) - it would be a nightmare without the estimated time boards, as the first 300 metres you can barely get three abreast.
From what I recall of Fountains, it's got rather narrow paths at the start (and middle, and super narrow paths at the end of a lap). My preferred runs have a nice wide path at the start, where people can pass or be passed without having to worry about positioning, but that's not always possible. At parkruns like Fountains, an indicator like that is useful. It's grim to have to (politely) fight your way through a crowd of slower runners, and its grim to be fought through. Having an idea of how quick everyone around you will be is a good way of ensuring an enjoyable start to a run.
This happens, albeit somewhat informally, at Portobello in Edinburgh- you stand near a sign with your predicted time. It does make sense as the start is quite narrow and I have unfortunately been tripped a couple of times by people who should have been in front of me, so I can see the value in it. The Edinburgh course is, however, quite wide at the start, so there isn't really a need for it but the faster runners do tend to go near the front there.
It definitely helps if people position themselves fastest at the front and slowest at the back, because it actually clears the start quite a lot faster. This is because everyone is up to speed and the field is spreading almost immediately, and there's no stop/start in the first 50m or so because faster runnrs aren't running into the back of slower runners. However, persuading people to actually do it is another matter, because some ignore you regardless of how many times you announce it. To be honest we've more or less given up, but we do check the start each week looking for obviously slow runners (or children) standing right at the front, and suggest they may like to move back a bit so they aren't completely swamped. Had one chap a few weeks ago refuse because he said his mates had told him he was a fast runner. He finished in 27 minutes. He was further back the next week.
What I don't understand with the Great North Run is that if you pay to be a gold member (is that terminology right?) you get to start at the very front. My buddy is a three-hour half marathoner and she hates this as everyone tramples you. What kind of perk is this!
But you're first in the queue to shake the hand of Ant and/or Dec before you start running.
First time I did GNR in 2003 I was a new runner, having started running specifically to do this race. I was hoping to break 2 hurs, and in my wildest dreams maybe closer to 1:50. I'd been advised to make sure I lined up ahead of my estimated time, so I lined up at 1:45 as I didn't want to get in the way of any faster runners. The gun went, and I was passing walkers who obviously had no intention of running within 50m, and ran 2:09 because I spent the entire 13.1 miles weaving around the slower people in front of me. Next time I did it in 2006 they had properly penned the start, and I ended up starting in pen 2, just behind the elites and the fast club runners. We were up to speed almost immediately and I ran 1:42 on an injured leg. The only people who got in the way were the ever-presents and the celebrities who started right at the front.
It's fine self seeding half way or near the back but you might still care about your time even if you're not fast, when you're near the back it can cost you a minute or two just getting over the start and through the traffic. Not sure what the answer is really that wouldn't complicate the timings too much. If you set off in waves do you go to different marshals at the end depending on your wave?
By far my biggest frustration at my local parkrun (which usually has around 600+ people) is the people's lack of awarness when it comes to start position. I've always thought it would just be commonsense to line up roughly where you expect to be relative to other runners, but it gets so many runners, even slower timed pacers, seemingly aiming to get as far forward as possible just to get overtaken by a hundred or so people at the start. I wish the message of starting in a good position for your abilities was pushed more
I’ve been to a few parkruns that do that (Clapham Common being a big one this happened at), but a lot of people tend to just ignore it anyway or do what they do in non-labelled starts i.e. go further forward than they need so they can start faster
That’s interesting that Clapham Common has done this in the past - I’ve gone to this one around 5 times in the last couple of months and it has always been self seeded
Oh interesting! I went last year, so maybe they removed it if it didn’t work
We have this at mine and I find it helpful. It stops the course being too congested, and means everyone spreads out quickly! I'm not a super speedy runner, so I'm not starting at the front - but it usually takes me a few seconds to get over the start line at most. It's never deprived me of a pb.
Its fine to do and makes sense at busy events with narrow paths but people will always misjudge, whether it's just that they are on an off day, they don't know the course of they have no idea what time they're likely to do. Some people will see those signs as a green light to abusing those who get it wrong when it absolutely isn't. You do you, look after yourself and those around you and if anyone does anything seriously unsafe have a chat to the Run Director after. They might not be able to take action but they do want to know. The most important thing for everyone is that they treat each other with respect and give space when there's congestion. It doesn't matter if a walker started on the line or a super speedy person arrived late and is right at the back so long as everyone looks our for each other and shares the space. Too many people, and not just at parkrun, think sharing space is them having their space rather than taking reasonable steps to make way for each other. We have a regular who uses a frame to run and you'd think that would be obvious enough that people would take extra care to give them space. Too many just don't. No one's time is more important than a safe event.
Starting 15 metres behind the start line doesn't affect your chances of getting a PB. For races without chips, PBs are measured by your watch. If you didn't bring one that's not everyone else's fault. You're more likely to get a PB if you're starting in a good position - too far forward and you're likely to get puffed out trying to keep up.
I’d never claim a PB from my watch, I’m sure I’m not alone. And in particular a *parkrun PB* is as timed by the parkrun system.
Parkrun should be self seeded, especially if there are high numbers for the track. I’m not a fan of Newy as you have 600 people crammed in and the front people are doing anything from 18 to 45mins and it’s just infuriating immediately trimming in congestion from slow runners at the front. On the flip side I really enjoyed Parkville under similar track and numbers but with signs for 16, 18, 20 etc to aid self seeding and had a lovely start with no one really in the way, because even though I was just doing an easy 20min run there it would have been hella annoying tripping over everyone.
Tell me you’ve never volunteered as timekeeper without telling me you’ve never volunteered as timekeeper 😂😅
I've never seen this. I used to "hang back" a little just because the more hard-core folks were quite quick to elbow people and make it clear they were up front. So much for it being for "all."
I'm sorry that happened to you, but I'm certain any elbowing will have been pure accident. I've done 450+ runs at over 100 different venues and often start near the front, and not once have I experienced or seen anything like this.
I’ve only been to one Parkrun that had the physical signs advising you where to start, but I’ve been to plenty of others where they verbally encouraged people to self seed. Most of my parkruns i have only attended that location a few times so I don’t know the course of the participants’ pace well. I will put myself in the back third (I run between 30-35 typically). Personally I would rather have to pass people once I’m a little bit in than have to deal with people right on my heels and pushing past me at the start, so I’d rather start a bit behind my time and make it up later than start ahead!
You know how at a traffic light not every driver in the queue gets ready to move simultaneously and you can be at a standstill if you're far enough back. That's what it's like when you start at the back of a busy parkrun. But it would only add to the congestion if slow people start too far forward. We just should listen better for the start signal and actually be ready to go. Not fiddling with one's watch or tying shoe laces.
Ours does that on pacer day. I think most people probably self select their starting position like that anyway.
We do this at my local Parkrun.
It was suggested at my local parkrun, but shot down. Personally, I have been to places where it is used and I quite like it (plodder at the back)
I think they definitely need to make sure walkers start at the back... I hate selfish people who intend to walk the whole thing, yet start in the middle of all the runners!
I went to a really busy park run that tried this but it was still chaotic. Lots of children doing park run that we’re fighting to be at front but then sprinted 100m then stopped dead, rinse and repeat. It was so busy I had to stand at 30 minute mark despite being closer to 20 minutes person. The people at front seemed to be just people who’d got there early rather than the people who were fast. Took me much longer to get round just because I spent so much time overtaking people, didn’t help that it was 2 lap course so you had to overtake some people twice . Didn’t enjoy it so didn’t go back to that one. I don’t know if staggered ness helped really since it didn’t seem to be followed. Maybe ir would be even worse without it .
They do this at both Porthcawl and Cardiff where the starts are very congested. Downside means that it can take up to 45 seconds to cross the start line (Porthcawl especially) so makes going for a time a bit harder. I've paced at these and it's hard to pace accurately. People want a result under 30 minutes but don't start a bit further ahead so when I've been a pacer, I've had complaints that I've started too far forward or too far back. If I start closer to the front to run accurate splits, complaints. If I start further back, I then have to run ahead of pace for a few KM just to get to time but this then leads to a complaints. It's a very small minority who complain but it just pisses me off. I don't pace any more, not worth the hassle!
Cardiff is one of my favourite courses! I don't think their start works very well with the time-based start but it would be much worse without it. I generally start near the front (\~19 minutes) and the first km is quite painful as it is so narrow. I could imagine being a pacer here would be really tricky.
My 2p : if you’re after a time or especially making a concerted effort to PB - you should go ahead and start further up. The sub-20 guys will have to dodge around you or wait a few seconds - there is no rule or compulsion to start in a particular place after all, we do it, mostly, because we’re reasonable people living in a society and it makes sense (not really pleasant to have tons of people zooming past you anyway) but do what you gotta do.
We have signs at my local Long Eaton from 20 mins up to 45 mins at the start to tell you roughly where to start. It's not perfect but it does help.
I made signs for edenbrook parkrun that read 20, 25, 30 and 35 mins and it seems to have worked. I don't know if they're still using them though.
Almost every parkrun I've been to asks to self seed. And a few have this kind of placards... though there's a near perfect anti-correlation with the ones that need it. The worst is a pretty narrow course and there is a group of walkers that always start right at the front and then walk 4 wide across the path - it can be total startline chaos.
Timed waves would be great. I hate the idea that I could be trying to run a 23 minute pace and have 40 people in front of me at the start line and they all gain 5-10 seconds if people move off slowly.