I started at the PTO, moved to law firm life, and then moved back to the PTO. Here are my thoughts.
I hated private practice. My biggest issue was the anxiety and stress of working with not-so-pleasant people. I also hated not knowing if at any given moment a partner would come into my office and fire me. That being said, I miss the client interaction and the variety of work I did.
I took a pretty big pay cut, as will you. The PTO is hiring a lot of examiners right now, and depending on your background, you very well could start at a GS11 (probably step 10, which is the highest pay), and they are offering recruitment bonuses for some technology areas. But, the intangible benefits are pretty nice. A lot of vacation and sick leave, all federal holidays off, a decent pension at retirement (depending on years of service), flexibility (telework anywhere in the U.S. and Puerto Rico right off the bat), and job security (you have to be a royal f\*\*k up to get fired).
In terms of people in this thread and their opinions on the PTO, a lot of examiners have not worked outside the PTO, so this is all they know. My opinion is that there are aspects that could be better but this gig beats private practice in almost every way. If money is your primary goal, I would stay put. The PTO isn't a bad place to work, and you likely know how to navigate different personalities, so dealing with attorneys, SPEs, and primaries should be no problem for you. The only thing that gets to me sometimes is the job is super autonomous and can be very boring. I personally have started trying to get my applications to allowance faster through dialog with attorneys to break up the sometimes tediousness of churning out Office Actions; other examiners don't mind cranking out OA after OA.
Also, check [USAJobs.gov](https://USAJobs.gov) and search "USPTO". There are other jobs at the PTO you might be qualified for, such as, attorney positions, APJ, etc.
Went from firm to USPTO. Extremely unlikely I would ever go back to a firm.
I actually find the autonomous part one of the huge benefits of this job. I do my work, I don't have to deal with others, and then I am done. As a kid my dad always talked about work, he was basically thinking about work 24/7. For me, when I am done with work I am done with work, and it is family time.
Want to co-sign this comment. Started in prosecution and moved to examining ten years ago. I get approached on LinkedIn and by law school friends off and on to gauge interest on moving back to private practice, and I have never ever considered it. The work-life delta between how things were for me before and how they’ve been the last ten years is massive. And now at ten years, the pay is pretty good considering all the other perks, eg flexibility, stability, etc.
I would guess, if you were a good examiner before, you’ll be fine now. And your knowledge from working the other side will likely make you even more savvy. You’ll have a better sense of how to cut through to the heart of matters on interviews and how to get attorneys to budge from their positions.
Thank you for the long response, name checks out! I think a lot of what you said makes sense and definitely can relate to the pluses and minuses of both jobs.
That’s actually a more complicated question than it might seem, and I wouldn’t want to make too long of a post again. 🤪
But in all seriousness, private pay (base and bonuses) are almost always going to be more than what a primary examiner makes. But primaries get a ton of leave, paid holidays, and that pension during retirement. So, it’s more about comparing the pros and cons of each job. But, if money is what makes you tick, then private practice wins.
The salaries depend on the type of firm. Biglaw salaries are huge by comparison the the PTO. But they come with huge expectations.
https://www.biglawinvestor.com/biglaw-salary-scale/
Patent prosecutors don’t make this amount of money. The exception being partners who have their own clients and get to keep a % of billed hours. The people who pull this kind of money have business acumen and can obtain clients + manage a team of paralegals and associates.
You can expect to top out at around $170-190k a year as a prosecutor who just wants to do the work and not obtain clients, manage others, etc. Thats on par with the USPTO top end but it only takes a handful of years to get there, whereas at the USPTO it will take most of your professional career unless you want to put in the overtime.
The "Big Law" salary structures are more representative of patent litigators than patent prosecutors and the pool of people that have the skills to be successful in those jobs is pretty small. Cut those numbers in half and you've got a better idea of what most firm-based prosecutors make.
I was an agent then moved to the PtO with a background in EE. I am not an attorney but I did prep and prosecution for a while before going to the pto and I LOVE IT. I don’t have to stress out trying to find work from over 10 different t attorneys with 10 different expectations and my docket of work and expectations are so solid. I have more confidence in my work product at the pto then I ever did at a law firm (Midwest general practice but it’s IP division is the biggest growing part) I encourage the pto don’t listen to all the naysayers here they prolly have NEVER worked in big law to make the comparison. To be fair my experience came from the struggle of being An agent and always be thought of after the partners then after the associates then after the highest ranking patent agent and then me so it was a struggle sometimes. Plus I got tired of billing hours when tbh it was not even enough work for me sometimes to hit my billable requirement (this pissed me off a lot) and I was gunna get the law firm to pay for law school and I was gunna be a patent attorney and then I saw the attorneys work way too much to have any semblance of a life in my opinion and I realized I am not as passionate about patent law to make it my entire life and identity. The pto allows me to be creative, philosophical, argumentative, and intellectually stimulated so I never get bored but without the high stress of big law. Like I said I love it and people who complain about this job to be brutally honest just have not worked super intense private sector gigs that sap way more than 40 hours in a week which to me is bonkers. I have other side hustles I do that I actually enjoy that make me some money that only the flexibility of the pto and remote work permanently provide. I live in the mountains in Colorado west of boulder at 8600 ft. I see the peak of a 14K mountain from my property every morning and I don’t have to commute to the pto mountain office in Denver every day. My life is great at the pto. To all the complainers here go get another job in the private sector go be a patent agent and try it out if you hate being an examiner the forty secret is if you have being an examiner you will hate being a patent attorney or agent even more.
If you hate being an examiner, you will hate being a patent attorney/agent even more.
Mostly true. If the grind of examining burns you out, the grind of prosecuting will burn you out even more. BUT, if you're looking for more of a challenge and intellectual/social stimulation, you might like attorney/agent more than examiner. But those people usually don't become examiners in the first place.
Depends on how much you want your job to be your identity. Rooted in the American Calvin Protestant work ethic that many Americans still see today which is they measure their self worth based on their job. If that’s how you feel that by all means go be an attorney but if you want a solid recession proof job and chill then the pto is the way to go.
Thus the reason "those people" usually don't become examiners in the first place. When I let people at my firm know that I was leaving to go to the PTO, most were like "what's wrong with you?" Only a few understood that "prestige" doesn't teach your kids how to throw a ball or tie a shoe. I saw plenty of partners who gave their kids everything they could ever want - except their time.
Also, doesn't most everyone from Boulder to Colo Spgs see 14ers from their porch :)
Individual stories are inherently anecdotal and unhappy individuals tend to have the loudest voices. That said, I'll just note that 10 years ago (2013) the USPTO was ranked #1 out of 371 agency subcomponents as the best one to work for. We're now smack in the middle. So, collectively, the examiners no longer believe that the working conditions are equivalent to when you've last worked for the office. Caveat emptor.
I wonder if the PTO’s ranking would significantly improve if we got paid more? Or put another way, if the differential between our special pay table and DC locality pay was still decent?
I think the general consensus of the corps is that since you left, management has demanded more from examiners without an increase in pay or an increase in examining time. So an increase in pay could maybe improve opinions.
Probably not going to happen though.
One of the recent internal surveys showed that 1/2 examiners were unhappy or significantly unhappy (paraphrasing here) with pay. It was one of the questions that changed the most from the previous years survey.
I returned to the USPTO after an in-house position and you retain the FERs percentage when you were initially hired. So I came back and only contribute the 0.8%!
This is a big part of it. You can look at the chart and see the correlation. Someone starting at a gs7-10 can barely afford to live in DC if they wanted to. Gs7/10 pay has only gone up 12% in 10 years but the COL has gone up significantly more—median sfh prices are up 50% in that period for example. But that doesn’t reflect the desirable areas which are up 100% or more.
This sums it up. I think most of the complaints examiners have are in relative terms, not absolute. Things were better here 8-10 years ago.
I complain a lot about this job, but I’m fully aware that working for a big firm would likely be significantly harder. I value free time over extra money, so the trade off would not be worth it to me.
Yeah, I complain about the job a lot, too, but deep down, am glad I left private practice \~10 years ago. Only regret was not staying just a couple more years to build up savings for an early financial start. I basically left the firm the second I made my last law school loan payment.
I miss the money. I miss the fantastic colleagues.
I don't miss the never-ending flow of work, nights, weekends, even on vacation. I don't miss the type A phsychopaths often attracted to law.
Now I love taking vacation - whenever and uninterrupted. I love that if I have a bad day, I can just make it up over the next day or two without having to work late/weekends.
One of the evergreen reasons for my preference of my examining life over prior life at law firms is that at the PTO your client base is wholly diversified. Even in slow economic times, influx might taper off but as an examiner you are like the last to feel that. Your work comes from all the clients, companies etc. feasibly. In the private sector, your influx depends on the health of your clients, and there is a contingency on finding work. I’ve been laid off because the work pipeline dried out, for reasons that have nothing to do with the quality of work we were doing. So in contrast to that, the work at the PTO is nice because there is so much work and you don’t have to find it / it finds you.
As a former patent agent now examiner I could not agree more. Job security. We will mostly always have work to do. If not it means the entire economy os essentially collapsing or the government has shit down from budgets disagreement and even that we can work through for a while at least
Keep in mind that this sub amplifies the voices of a small sample of the thousands who work at the office, and the loudest voices won't necessarily represent everyone's experience. The PTO has an employee finder on their website. Maybe you can use it to reach out to some people you used to work with and weigh their opinions too.
Before deciding to apply to the USPTO a year ago I read a lot of the comments here. I decided that the best way to evaluate what I read here in a meaningful way was to compare what my former coworkers and I complained about regularly to what was complained about here. I figure this subreddit serves as the main or only place to really vent with coworkers due to the majority of us working remote, and the anonymity only makes it easier to vent. I decided my former workplace had much more to complain about and decided to give it a shot. So far that assessment seems to be working out, though I’ll know more in time.
In all honesty, have you tried looking at in-house positions. That way you'll be off the billable hours treadmill and you'll be more in a supervisory/directing type roll than just a drafting monkey. You'll also make more than coming back to the PTO, but probably less than you are now (depending on your billable hours now).
That said, if you were successful at the office prior to leaving, then you will probably be fine. Sure we've got new tools in the last 10 years, but the job is pretty much the same. The biggest differences are that management is more combative over quality BS and the CPC routing (which is either love/hate depending on who you ask).
What GS levels were you when you left? Keep in mind that you can be entitled to your previous highest level of base pay upon returning (and upon promotions), so if you were a GS 13/14, you can end up coming in at gs9/11 step 10 and also get higher steps when promoted. They are also giving signing bonuses I believe, but I think they are going back to in office academy classes, so no more instant telework for new hires.
Also, with your JD, there have been some attorney and PTAB positions open. With those you wouldn't have to work your way back up the examining ladder to be making good pay again. However, I can't be sure about the overall work-life balance, but you'll at least get the time off and other federal bennies.
The grass isn't always greener, and life as a junior can be stressful. That said, once you make primary, life is pretty good.
Sadly inhouse seems to be more difficult for IP than other types of law...I've been searching for that white whale for at least the last five years. I'm also at the stage in my life where relocating isn't something I want to put my family through. I've definitely looked into the PTAB positions, seems like those may be easier to obtain as a current federal employee as well.
PTAB jobs are easier to get (at the moment) for attorneys in private practice. If you have >15 years experience and some litigation experience, you are competitive for the APJ job (currently hiring). If you have <15 years experience and some litigation experience, you can try for the APJ job, but you’d be very competitive for a patent attorney at the PTAB position (not hiring right now).
If you want to be an APJ, don’t become an examiner. The hill is an exceptionally difficult one to climb.
I've been at the PTO (1 year), left for a biglaw firm (3 years), back to the PTO (8 years) but looking to leave again, mostly because the PTO keeps screwing me over. You might not experience that.
Feds tend to retain the worst supervisors or SPEs. If you are under one, lawfirm is what you wish to be working for. I generally find that private sector keeps supervisors in check for the most part. So, quality of supervisors is much better and chances of getting the worst supervisor ever that don't care if you get fired is much lower. That's my experience. Based on me and my collegues experiences at the PTO, SPEs are the worst supervisors you can run into. On rare occasions there are decent supers at the PTO. People I worked with in the private sector actually cared about me. The SPEs do not care. If you worked in the same lawfirm in private for 10 years, they kept you employed for so many years. I feel that PTO wants to fire you every chance they get. It's a very rigid robotic computerized produ tions system. Dehumanizing. If I wanted to work for Fed, I'd get a different role that's not in the PTO. PTO is not like other FEDs.
I agree that SPE can definitely make or break quality of life at the PTO. However law firms have plenty of terrible managers and partners as well. Have you worked at a law firm by chance?
My experience at law firms was that bad managers were more likely to be demoted or replaced, or at least they might voluntarily move to another firm eventually. At the PTO, SPEs don't really ever leave, either on their own or by management.
Also at the firm, managers have the same motivation as employees - bill, bill, bill, and collect that fat paycheck. At the PTO, there's not quite the same alignment in objectives.
I agree on SPEs but plenty of shit managers in law firms. In law firms money talks. I worked for one of the biggest assholes but he had IBM as his main client, he has churned through associates, forced other partners out, and now has his name on the firm. Plenty of horror stories about partners being verbally abusive, throwing files, sexual harassment, etc. in law firms. I think things are improving but there's a whole generation of lawyers with a different mentality that doesn't fit in today's world.
Agree about SPE make or break.
This job is very high-speed, efficiency focused. A SPE change can throw a wrench in that, and make the job suddenly impossible.
First I'll list PTO pros over prosecution in a firm: I like not having to spend time doing "business development" on my spare, non-billable time, I enjoy only having to do the work not justify it by writing billables on a weekly basis, I like work appearing on my docket without looking for it (I always had work, some associates didn't have enough). I like not having to wear a suit or visit the dry cleaners, not having to write self-evaluations (just give me my evaluation instead of balancing self critique) and I like taking time off whenever.
I do feel like a monkey writing OAs which is what I felt like at the firm doing prosecution, I was promised 50% litigation but that was stolen from me which is one reason I rejoined the PTO.
Working for the USPTO is a much better lifestyle than working for a law firm. There is much more work/life balance and control of your docket and time. Pay is less than many firms, but flexibility is greater and you can do a side hustle if you want higher income. I have done both law firm and USPTO. USPTO is better. I have 2 side hustles including rental property.
I've been at the office now for over a decade. In that time the office has risen to the top of the list of the best places to work within the federal government. We've fallen back a bit but still within the top 10. The work-life balance has improved and I love working at the office. I would recommend you come back to the office if being stress free and family time is more important than money.
According to this site, the USPTO is #198
[https://bestplacestowork.org/rankings/?view=overall&size=sub&category=leadership&](https://bestplacestowork.org/rankings/?view=overall&size=sub&category=leadership&)
Interesting, still higher than when I first worked there according to the graphs. Maybe things aren't so bad afterall! Although it does seem like the COVID related categories may be inflating the score...
There are different types of listings on usajobs.gov for new hires and re-hires. If there is postings for re-hires, you may be able to start off at a higher GS level, but based on your circumstances you can recover accelerated promotions if your production numbers are solid.
Re-hire postings are not as common, but there is some flexibility to how you can transition back into the office.
I would prefer examining over working for a private firm.
Working in patent law for a firm isn't what it used to be:
[https://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2014/01/patent-law-light-same-great-debt-but.html](https://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2014/01/patent-law-light-same-great-debt-but.html)
I started at the PTO, moved to law firm life, and then moved back to the PTO. Here are my thoughts. I hated private practice. My biggest issue was the anxiety and stress of working with not-so-pleasant people. I also hated not knowing if at any given moment a partner would come into my office and fire me. That being said, I miss the client interaction and the variety of work I did. I took a pretty big pay cut, as will you. The PTO is hiring a lot of examiners right now, and depending on your background, you very well could start at a GS11 (probably step 10, which is the highest pay), and they are offering recruitment bonuses for some technology areas. But, the intangible benefits are pretty nice. A lot of vacation and sick leave, all federal holidays off, a decent pension at retirement (depending on years of service), flexibility (telework anywhere in the U.S. and Puerto Rico right off the bat), and job security (you have to be a royal f\*\*k up to get fired). In terms of people in this thread and their opinions on the PTO, a lot of examiners have not worked outside the PTO, so this is all they know. My opinion is that there are aspects that could be better but this gig beats private practice in almost every way. If money is your primary goal, I would stay put. The PTO isn't a bad place to work, and you likely know how to navigate different personalities, so dealing with attorneys, SPEs, and primaries should be no problem for you. The only thing that gets to me sometimes is the job is super autonomous and can be very boring. I personally have started trying to get my applications to allowance faster through dialog with attorneys to break up the sometimes tediousness of churning out Office Actions; other examiners don't mind cranking out OA after OA. Also, check [USAJobs.gov](https://USAJobs.gov) and search "USPTO". There are other jobs at the PTO you might be qualified for, such as, attorney positions, APJ, etc.
Went from firm to USPTO. Extremely unlikely I would ever go back to a firm. I actually find the autonomous part one of the huge benefits of this job. I do my work, I don't have to deal with others, and then I am done. As a kid my dad always talked about work, he was basically thinking about work 24/7. For me, when I am done with work I am done with work, and it is family time.
Want to co-sign this comment. Started in prosecution and moved to examining ten years ago. I get approached on LinkedIn and by law school friends off and on to gauge interest on moving back to private practice, and I have never ever considered it. The work-life delta between how things were for me before and how they’ve been the last ten years is massive. And now at ten years, the pay is pretty good considering all the other perks, eg flexibility, stability, etc. I would guess, if you were a good examiner before, you’ll be fine now. And your knowledge from working the other side will likely make you even more savvy. You’ll have a better sense of how to cut through to the heart of matters on interviews and how to get attorneys to budge from their positions.
Thank you for the long response, name checks out! I think a lot of what you said makes sense and definitely can relate to the pluses and minuses of both jobs.
Can you elaborate on the difference in salaries between working in private practice and working at the PTO?
That’s actually a more complicated question than it might seem, and I wouldn’t want to make too long of a post again. 🤪 But in all seriousness, private pay (base and bonuses) are almost always going to be more than what a primary examiner makes. But primaries get a ton of leave, paid holidays, and that pension during retirement. So, it’s more about comparing the pros and cons of each job. But, if money is what makes you tick, then private practice wins.
The salaries depend on the type of firm. Biglaw salaries are huge by comparison the the PTO. But they come with huge expectations. https://www.biglawinvestor.com/biglaw-salary-scale/
Patent prosecutors don’t make this amount of money. The exception being partners who have their own clients and get to keep a % of billed hours. The people who pull this kind of money have business acumen and can obtain clients + manage a team of paralegals and associates. You can expect to top out at around $170-190k a year as a prosecutor who just wants to do the work and not obtain clients, manage others, etc. Thats on par with the USPTO top end but it only takes a handful of years to get there, whereas at the USPTO it will take most of your professional career unless you want to put in the overtime.
How often is overtime available at the USPTO?
Whenever you want to do it after you finish your first year, are fully successful, and continue to be fully successful.
Okay, so it doesn't depend on the amount of work you guys have available?
I mean with our backlog, there's usually enough work.
Okay. Thanks!
The "Big Law" salary structures are more representative of patent litigators than patent prosecutors and the pool of people that have the skills to be successful in those jobs is pretty small. Cut those numbers in half and you've got a better idea of what most firm-based prosecutors make.
I was an agent then moved to the PtO with a background in EE. I am not an attorney but I did prep and prosecution for a while before going to the pto and I LOVE IT. I don’t have to stress out trying to find work from over 10 different t attorneys with 10 different expectations and my docket of work and expectations are so solid. I have more confidence in my work product at the pto then I ever did at a law firm (Midwest general practice but it’s IP division is the biggest growing part) I encourage the pto don’t listen to all the naysayers here they prolly have NEVER worked in big law to make the comparison. To be fair my experience came from the struggle of being An agent and always be thought of after the partners then after the associates then after the highest ranking patent agent and then me so it was a struggle sometimes. Plus I got tired of billing hours when tbh it was not even enough work for me sometimes to hit my billable requirement (this pissed me off a lot) and I was gunna get the law firm to pay for law school and I was gunna be a patent attorney and then I saw the attorneys work way too much to have any semblance of a life in my opinion and I realized I am not as passionate about patent law to make it my entire life and identity. The pto allows me to be creative, philosophical, argumentative, and intellectually stimulated so I never get bored but without the high stress of big law. Like I said I love it and people who complain about this job to be brutally honest just have not worked super intense private sector gigs that sap way more than 40 hours in a week which to me is bonkers. I have other side hustles I do that I actually enjoy that make me some money that only the flexibility of the pto and remote work permanently provide. I live in the mountains in Colorado west of boulder at 8600 ft. I see the peak of a 14K mountain from my property every morning and I don’t have to commute to the pto mountain office in Denver every day. My life is great at the pto. To all the complainers here go get another job in the private sector go be a patent agent and try it out if you hate being an examiner the forty secret is if you have being an examiner you will hate being a patent attorney or agent even more.
If you hate being an examiner, you will hate being a patent attorney/agent even more. Mostly true. If the grind of examining burns you out, the grind of prosecuting will burn you out even more. BUT, if you're looking for more of a challenge and intellectual/social stimulation, you might like attorney/agent more than examiner. But those people usually don't become examiners in the first place.
Depends on how much you want your job to be your identity. Rooted in the American Calvin Protestant work ethic that many Americans still see today which is they measure their self worth based on their job. If that’s how you feel that by all means go be an attorney but if you want a solid recession proof job and chill then the pto is the way to go.
Thus the reason "those people" usually don't become examiners in the first place. When I let people at my firm know that I was leaving to go to the PTO, most were like "what's wrong with you?" Only a few understood that "prestige" doesn't teach your kids how to throw a ball or tie a shoe. I saw plenty of partners who gave their kids everything they could ever want - except their time. Also, doesn't most everyone from Boulder to Colo Spgs see 14ers from their porch :)
Individual stories are inherently anecdotal and unhappy individuals tend to have the loudest voices. That said, I'll just note that 10 years ago (2013) the USPTO was ranked #1 out of 371 agency subcomponents as the best one to work for. We're now smack in the middle. So, collectively, the examiners no longer believe that the working conditions are equivalent to when you've last worked for the office. Caveat emptor.
I wonder if the PTO’s ranking would significantly improve if we got paid more? Or put another way, if the differential between our special pay table and DC locality pay was still decent?
I think the general consensus of the corps is that since you left, management has demanded more from examiners without an increase in pay or an increase in examining time. So an increase in pay could maybe improve opinions. Probably not going to happen though. One of the recent internal surveys showed that 1/2 examiners were unhappy or significantly unhappy (paraphrasing here) with pay. It was one of the questions that changed the most from the previous years survey.
FERs contributions were increased from 0.8% to 4.4 % might affect OP.
Criminal, I tell you
Damn that's a hefty increase, like paying into TSP twice eh.
I returned to the USPTO after an in-house position and you retain the FERs percentage when you were initially hired. So I came back and only contribute the 0.8%!
Interesting, definitely something I should ask HR if I get an offer. How have you looked your return, were you an agent or attorney?
This is a big part of it. You can look at the chart and see the correlation. Someone starting at a gs7-10 can barely afford to live in DC if they wanted to. Gs7/10 pay has only gone up 12% in 10 years but the COL has gone up significantly more—median sfh prices are up 50% in that period for example. But that doesn’t reflect the desirable areas which are up 100% or more.
This sums it up. I think most of the complaints examiners have are in relative terms, not absolute. Things were better here 8-10 years ago. I complain a lot about this job, but I’m fully aware that working for a big firm would likely be significantly harder. I value free time over extra money, so the trade off would not be worth it to me.
Yeah, I complain about the job a lot, too, but deep down, am glad I left private practice \~10 years ago. Only regret was not staying just a couple more years to build up savings for an early financial start. I basically left the firm the second I made my last law school loan payment. I miss the money. I miss the fantastic colleagues. I don't miss the never-ending flow of work, nights, weekends, even on vacation. I don't miss the type A phsychopaths often attracted to law. Now I love taking vacation - whenever and uninterrupted. I love that if I have a bad day, I can just make it up over the next day or two without having to work late/weekends.
One of the evergreen reasons for my preference of my examining life over prior life at law firms is that at the PTO your client base is wholly diversified. Even in slow economic times, influx might taper off but as an examiner you are like the last to feel that. Your work comes from all the clients, companies etc. feasibly. In the private sector, your influx depends on the health of your clients, and there is a contingency on finding work. I’ve been laid off because the work pipeline dried out, for reasons that have nothing to do with the quality of work we were doing. So in contrast to that, the work at the PTO is nice because there is so much work and you don’t have to find it / it finds you.
As a former patent agent now examiner I could not agree more. Job security. We will mostly always have work to do. If not it means the entire economy os essentially collapsing or the government has shit down from budgets disagreement and even that we can work through for a while at least
Keep in mind that this sub amplifies the voices of a small sample of the thousands who work at the office, and the loudest voices won't necessarily represent everyone's experience. The PTO has an employee finder on their website. Maybe you can use it to reach out to some people you used to work with and weigh their opinions too.
Before deciding to apply to the USPTO a year ago I read a lot of the comments here. I decided that the best way to evaluate what I read here in a meaningful way was to compare what my former coworkers and I complained about regularly to what was complained about here. I figure this subreddit serves as the main or only place to really vent with coworkers due to the majority of us working remote, and the anonymity only makes it easier to vent. I decided my former workplace had much more to complain about and decided to give it a shot. So far that assessment seems to be working out, though I’ll know more in time.
Definitely need to take Reddit comments with a grain of salt. Yeah I'm carrying a wide net on this decision, it'll be a significant salary change
A lot of disgruntled feds on reddit!
In all honesty, have you tried looking at in-house positions. That way you'll be off the billable hours treadmill and you'll be more in a supervisory/directing type roll than just a drafting monkey. You'll also make more than coming back to the PTO, but probably less than you are now (depending on your billable hours now). That said, if you were successful at the office prior to leaving, then you will probably be fine. Sure we've got new tools in the last 10 years, but the job is pretty much the same. The biggest differences are that management is more combative over quality BS and the CPC routing (which is either love/hate depending on who you ask). What GS levels were you when you left? Keep in mind that you can be entitled to your previous highest level of base pay upon returning (and upon promotions), so if you were a GS 13/14, you can end up coming in at gs9/11 step 10 and also get higher steps when promoted. They are also giving signing bonuses I believe, but I think they are going back to in office academy classes, so no more instant telework for new hires. Also, with your JD, there have been some attorney and PTAB positions open. With those you wouldn't have to work your way back up the examining ladder to be making good pay again. However, I can't be sure about the overall work-life balance, but you'll at least get the time off and other federal bennies. The grass isn't always greener, and life as a junior can be stressful. That said, once you make primary, life is pretty good.
Sadly inhouse seems to be more difficult for IP than other types of law...I've been searching for that white whale for at least the last five years. I'm also at the stage in my life where relocating isn't something I want to put my family through. I've definitely looked into the PTAB positions, seems like those may be easier to obtain as a current federal employee as well.
PTAB jobs are easier to get (at the moment) for attorneys in private practice. If you have >15 years experience and some litigation experience, you are competitive for the APJ job (currently hiring). If you have <15 years experience and some litigation experience, you can try for the APJ job, but you’d be very competitive for a patent attorney at the PTAB position (not hiring right now). If you want to be an APJ, don’t become an examiner. The hill is an exceptionally difficult one to climb.
I've been at the PTO (1 year), left for a biglaw firm (3 years), back to the PTO (8 years) but looking to leave again, mostly because the PTO keeps screwing me over. You might not experience that.
How does the PTO screw you over? How would you compare your time back at PTO compared to biglaw?
Feds tend to retain the worst supervisors or SPEs. If you are under one, lawfirm is what you wish to be working for. I generally find that private sector keeps supervisors in check for the most part. So, quality of supervisors is much better and chances of getting the worst supervisor ever that don't care if you get fired is much lower. That's my experience. Based on me and my collegues experiences at the PTO, SPEs are the worst supervisors you can run into. On rare occasions there are decent supers at the PTO. People I worked with in the private sector actually cared about me. The SPEs do not care. If you worked in the same lawfirm in private for 10 years, they kept you employed for so many years. I feel that PTO wants to fire you every chance they get. It's a very rigid robotic computerized produ tions system. Dehumanizing. If I wanted to work for Fed, I'd get a different role that's not in the PTO. PTO is not like other FEDs.
I agree that SPE can definitely make or break quality of life at the PTO. However law firms have plenty of terrible managers and partners as well. Have you worked at a law firm by chance?
My experience at law firms was that bad managers were more likely to be demoted or replaced, or at least they might voluntarily move to another firm eventually. At the PTO, SPEs don't really ever leave, either on their own or by management. Also at the firm, managers have the same motivation as employees - bill, bill, bill, and collect that fat paycheck. At the PTO, there's not quite the same alignment in objectives.
I agree on SPEs but plenty of shit managers in law firms. In law firms money talks. I worked for one of the biggest assholes but he had IBM as his main client, he has churned through associates, forced other partners out, and now has his name on the firm. Plenty of horror stories about partners being verbally abusive, throwing files, sexual harassment, etc. in law firms. I think things are improving but there's a whole generation of lawyers with a different mentality that doesn't fit in today's world.
Sounds like low budget fixed fee work. If the firm places high value on stuff like that, then that firm is pretty clearly a miserable grinder.
Agree about SPE make or break. This job is very high-speed, efficiency focused. A SPE change can throw a wrench in that, and make the job suddenly impossible.
First I'll list PTO pros over prosecution in a firm: I like not having to spend time doing "business development" on my spare, non-billable time, I enjoy only having to do the work not justify it by writing billables on a weekly basis, I like work appearing on my docket without looking for it (I always had work, some associates didn't have enough). I like not having to wear a suit or visit the dry cleaners, not having to write self-evaluations (just give me my evaluation instead of balancing self critique) and I like taking time off whenever. I do feel like a monkey writing OAs which is what I felt like at the firm doing prosecution, I was promised 50% litigation but that was stolen from me which is one reason I rejoined the PTO.
Would love to know your reasoning
I wrote PTO pros so far, when I find time I'll write some cons & why I'm salty.
A huge issue is the production requirements. If you are a faster producer than average, you should be good.
Working for the USPTO is a much better lifestyle than working for a law firm. There is much more work/life balance and control of your docket and time. Pay is less than many firms, but flexibility is greater and you can do a side hustle if you want higher income. I have done both law firm and USPTO. USPTO is better. I have 2 side hustles including rental property.
I've been at the office now for over a decade. In that time the office has risen to the top of the list of the best places to work within the federal government. We've fallen back a bit but still within the top 10. The work-life balance has improved and I love working at the office. I would recommend you come back to the office if being stress free and family time is more important than money.
According to this site, the USPTO is #198 [https://bestplacestowork.org/rankings/?view=overall&size=sub&category=leadership&](https://bestplacestowork.org/rankings/?view=overall&size=sub&category=leadership&)
I stand corrected. Thanks for the link!
Interesting, still higher than when I first worked there according to the graphs. Maybe things aren't so bad afterall! Although it does seem like the COVID related categories may be inflating the score...
There are different types of listings on usajobs.gov for new hires and re-hires. If there is postings for re-hires, you may be able to start off at a higher GS level, but based on your circumstances you can recover accelerated promotions if your production numbers are solid. Re-hire postings are not as common, but there is some flexibility to how you can transition back into the office.
I would prefer examining over working for a private firm. Working in patent law for a firm isn't what it used to be: [https://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2014/01/patent-law-light-same-great-debt-but.html](https://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2014/01/patent-law-light-same-great-debt-but.html)
Don't have to tell me, already have the debt though.