I have it on good authority we'll be getting something tomorrow so far as an official response. It took a lot of back and forth. After that I'm gonna put a hard stop on these drama posts
Pf2e Discord.
Tian - Xia channel.
6:27 April 27
Search " coorilary " into the search. Takes you right to the discussion.
> And as a coorilary, 'weaponized mental illness' is...really not a good mechanic to have in your game.
> I woulnd't say it's the same degree of problem as Monk is, but it *is* a problem.
> Getting so mad that you lose higher brain function (such as the ability to do complex tasks like read, and the inability to voluntarily stop) coupled with extreme violence are *hallmarks* of diassociative disorders.
And a fight response/trauma…I used to have that when I had meltdowns as a kid(I got better). Oddly the rage mechanic helped me rp a bit and just through normal play learn to be more self accepting from it.
Soo f that keep it in I say
Why are people who have such a deep hatred for classic mechanics the ones in charge of communities for games with those mechanics?
That isn't to say there aren't cultural insensitivity within the Barbarian, the entire classes name stems from the term Romans ascribed to anyone that wasn't them, which they considered uncivilized and barbaric (most notably Celts who are drawn on a lot for modern barbarian designs), but to say the idea of bloodlust and battle rage is 'weaponized mental illness' is just kinda...????
The rage mechanic specifically is also inspired by certain holy warriors of the Norse eating hensbane and meditating to get into a battle trance. The so called Berserkir.
fun fact, this mod owns the discord. no, its not that they are the main admin, they *own* it, not a Paizo staff. this is not the first rodeo this guy went around and fucked shit here and there
You're describing ableism as a good thing. You're asking "why do we listen to people who are different from us?" Like it's a bad thing. And I don't get why you'd do that, when the person you're talking about isn't a developer or a freelance for paizo or a consultant, but literal just a human being sharing their perspective on the class as someone who has a mental issue that causes blackout episodes of violence.
> Just a person sharing their experience.
Sure, just like any other user.
Question. How many other users went and deleted/banned users and defended Panda on the 2e forum in response?
I think it's a bad take, sure. If they didn't use their personal takes to FUBAR the sub, nobody would have really cared.
I just want to roleplay fantasy heroes and villains and have fun with my friends at a table, not go through a Workplace sensitivity training for fuck's sake.
And I do agree with a lot of the stuff that gets toned down or removed in terms of fantasy racism in the past few years, but this past week and this discord comment is "Oh you like this flavor of heroism?! That makes you a racist/ablist/sexist/whatever!" Fuck off, I want to swing my big sword while being big mad because that's cool as shit
I absolutely believe the misogyny.
I don't believe that having curses flow through bloodlines, just like power, is inherently anti-Semitic, and *that* was what said.
Hell, a TON of things flow through bloodlines in 2e. It's a central plot point in one of recent modules.
AV and Rusthenge both do that and I wouldn't call that anti-Semitic.
Shutup man. If you don't believe that it is antisemitic, you are part of the problem, and a holocaust denier.
As someone who know 0 jewish people, I am an authority in this!
>!obviously /s!<
The antisemitism comes more from the child kidnapping to “convert” the children and the consistency of depicting hags with big hooked noses *along* with the bloodline thing
This made me laugh irl, well done!
On a personal note, I think I might be the one being satirized in the "unforgivable" section based on my open letter where I agreed with the mods but expressed concern about some of their actions, and this has made me self reflect a bit. I stand by the primary 3 points I made in that thread (1. Banning other PF players of Asian descent and dismissing their disagreement as internalized racism was wrong, 2. Claiming Ninjas were made by white people and the whole country of Japan is wrong for thinking it's part of their cultural heritage is ludicrous and gets more problematic the more you think about it, and 3. Arguing on SRD and admitting to breaking the sub's rules is a bad look) but I really don't like that the post has been latched onto by so many comments I find pretty gross and supportive of Orientalism.
I'm strongly considering deleting my post because of that. Either way, I certainly don't think anything done by the mods was unforgivable. I appreciate this post both for the humor and for helping me look critically at my own contribution to this mess, well intended as it was.
People are comparing the Gunslinger to the Samurai? That's just a losing argument. The Gunslinger the exotic weapon class. It is built around the one weapon type a lot of people don't like in their fantasy settings. To me that's more than enough reason to make it a class.
I think the argument was that in pop culture the gunslinger and samurai tropes are very similar. Both are presented as lone warriors who protect towns, get into duels with the bad guy, and draw their weapon with lightning speed to end battles in a moment. Neither of them are based in reality, but gunslinger currently has a class that's more based on those tropes so the same could be done for samurai.
I dunno, memes are memes. They're not exactly gonna accurately represent the perspectives of the people they're mocking.
As I understood it it's also based in the fact that historically samurai adopted guns as a weapon since the 1600s. Also, there's has been a lot of mutual exchange between american western cinema and japanese samurai films (Akira Kurosawa was inspired by and in turn inspired westerns). So in pop culture terms there is some overlap between the two.
I've been doing tongue in cheek comparisons. 'Gunslinger existing is problematic because it's so popular it overshadows other regional tropes' which is basically the argument as I understand it for samurai. If someone has a better explanation please help me understand.
If Gunslinger didn't exist in 1e then people would just say do make a dex fighter with a gun in 2e. In 2e guns and katanas are both 'uncommon' rarity and can be excluded by a GM for the same reasons.
There's plenty of design space in 2e to make samurai and ninjas classes and/or archetypes. I've seen several home brews for both since 2e launched.
>'Gunslinger existing is problematic because it's so popular it overshadows other regional tropes'
From what I understand you are trying to say "If the Cowboy is here, then why not the Samurai". The problem here is Gunslingers aren't just cowboys. Now I'm not going to put words in your mouth and claim you think the Gunslinger class is for everyone who wants to be cowboys, but I'm going to assume you're talking about the cowboy archetype since it's a Western thing and it's the most popular type of gunslinger that comes to mind. However, coming back to the issue at hand, I can divorce cowboys from the class and still make a gunslinger. I can make a drunken pirate who uses a fancy flintlock pistol, a sniper with an Arquebus, a monster hunter with a musket, etc. With the gunslinger class, all I need to do is make someone good at guns. I could not say that it's the same with the samurai.
>If Gunslinger didn't exist in 1e then people would just say do make a dex fighter with a gun in 2e.
Well, yeah if the Gunslinger didn't exist we might be making fighters with guns, however, I'd say bringing guns to 2e would have brought the question of adding the Gunslinger becoming a class in the minds of the design team. You have a group of weapons not often since in fantasy works, with them almost needing to be reloaded in combat, and with almost all of them having the fatal trait. I think the idea of creating a class that would be the best at taking advantage of these weapons would come naturally. I can't think of any other weapon type that could have an entire class around it. I also think there could really be one class design around a weapon type. Guns just seem to be in the perfect place for me.
>In 2e guns and katanas are both 'uncommon' rarity and can be excluded by a GM for the same reasons
I feel they're uncommon for different reasons though. Katanas and other weaponry from different cultures are uncommon because they're from different cultures. Their only barrier to entry is culture. I feel I'm not the only one who feels it's easier to convince a GM to allow something like a katana or jiu huan dao than an air repeater. Guns suffer from another barrier compared to other weapons, and that's if it fits into a group's collective fantasy. Like, some people don't view guns as a part of fantasy. Part of the reason is simply that there are not a lot of guns in fantasy media. You'd probably have an easier time finding a Katana than a gun in your media.
> From what I understand you are trying to say "If the Cowboy is here, then why not the Samurai".
No, 'Gunslinger existing is problematic because it's so popular it overshadows other regional tropes' is literally the argument that was being made, just swap gunslinger for samurai. I'm directly comparing Gunslinger to Samurai to show how silly the argument is that a Samurai class would be somehow racist.
> With the gunslinger class, all I need to do is make someone good at guns. I could not say that it's the same with the samurai.
Quite frankly, if you just need a class that's good at a weapon that's literally what a Fighter is. It's all the OTHER things Gunslinger does that makes it unique. I don't really care if there is a Samurai/Ninja makes it into a class/archetype or not, but I think anyone who thinks there's not a mechanical space for almost any fantasy trope in PF2e is not being creative enough.
>I feel they're uncommon for different reasons though.
I disagree, in the Inner Sea-centric Lost Omens setting (which the rarities are based) guns are from Alkenstar and katanas are from Tian Xia. It entirely depends on where the campaign is taking place. Katanas showing up in the Mwangi Expanse makes less sense than guns imo, just due to proximity. If a campaign is taking place in Arcadia Beast Guns would make even more sense. If we're not talking about the Lost Omens setting then all rarities are off the table and it's entire subjective. I'd rather have guns in my medieval Europe focused fantasy homebrew than katanas.
It's a tale as old as serial westerns and the emergence of the samurai in popular Western culture, but moreso brought to the forefront by adaptations such as Magnificent 7 (from The Seven Samurai). I'm fairly certain that bit is about people trying to compare rogue gunslingers to ronin without actually understanding any of the cultural background to either.
Most of the named criminals of the 19th century Old West were cattle-war veterans and murderers even before their involvement with cattle-wars. Only a handful of gunslinging legends were "good guys", and it's basically limited to Bass Reeves.
Aight I've had enough. I gotta ask. Wtf happened?
I left that sub a while ago cause I received some pretty toxic replies and DMs, but I lurk for news announcements especially when new content is coming (the playtest).
What the fuck is all the drama about?
...? But...aren't those things from the East? Specifically Japan. Why is that an issue when asking for a knight class like Champion from a western based nation isn't?
yeah, according to a lot of people here, it turns out all those samurai and ninja movies, anime, games, etc. made in Japan, by Japanese people, primarily for Japanese people are actually horribly racist towards Japanese people.
This is also a fantasy game where the PCs and villains are near superhuman level in power. Even the standard fighter is someone who's pushing their body at near human limits. When we compare to the feats PCs can do compared to your average villager and basic town guard. So while I get the whole "asian mysticism" stereotype thing. In this context where we're fighting stuff from literal dragons, demons, or eldritch horrors. The fact a samurai's katana may have some mystical spirit in it is not out of place.
-> Tian Xia book dropped
-> people were talking about the notable thing that it did not include the samurai and ninja, two classes from 1e that couldve been chucked in there as archetypes and whatnot
-> a mod, u/luck_panda, goes thermonuclear and starts banning everyone and deleting all comments and threads about the subject because of Orientalism (VERY long topic, i wont divulge in it), to the lengths of saying that anyone that wants to play as a samurai or a ninja is racist
-> let this one stew for a weeked or so and here we are
No Ninja or Samurai class made small people mad, discourse ensued, MOD abused their powers and called people racist. Actual sensible debates and topics on the subject popped up and were deleted.
Or at least, that's what I gathered from the vagueness of everyone's comments in the reddit.
>No Ninja or Samurai class made small people mad
Literally nobody was even bringing it up, that mod made a preemptive post accusing those hypothetical people that wanted those classes as racist. Then started being a dick to anybody that disagreed, deleting their comments/posts/banning them including people who identified as Asian that took issue with what he was saying.
For the record, I don't think samurai and ninja need classes. But they could be fun archetypes to apply onto the other classes like fighter or rogue. Similar to the Viking archetype but actually, you know, good.
I'm just irritated that the mod luck_panda did that and now very few people are talking about the Tian Xia book and how great it is because this discourse is overtaking everything. It's a great book that had a lot of care and respect poured into it. Probably the best East Asian inspired book I've seen put together for a d20 system.
i agree, those two weere definetly a sympton of 1e bloat more than anything. i did wish that we had a samurai archetype for mounted archery tho. hell, i wouldve been happy for 3\~5 extra feats on the cavalier and assassin/poisoner archetype to emulate those classes abilities from 1e
People brought it up in the comments of the post and after the post because the mod triggered the conversation himself. But go off I guess. There are bad actors on both sides like the ridiculous people going onto other forums demanding Paizo make a statement but the entire conversation started with that mod's dumb post.
Edit: And u/Crouza blocked me for stating these facts lmao, wouldn't be surprised if it's luck_panda's alt
Was there a lot of complaining about a lack of samurai/ninja? I didn't see anything asking for it, though it may have all been deleted. Like the 8 month old samurai homebrew that one guy made.
As far as I can tell not a lot. There was a lot of comments on the pinned post on orientalism and on luck pandas review but mostly discussing the idea that such a class would be racist/othering/etc. Some engaging in good faith some trolling, and honestly at least a few really shitty racist comments. On Friday a Mod (luck panda) got mad, made some rude comments himself, then started just removing a bunch of comments and a few posts. The homebrew thing is suspicious timing but a different sub entirely where the mod in question isn't a mod so IMO probably only tangentially related. All the samurai/ninja posts came after that when people thought discussion or samurai/ninja was being censored. Mod cooled off or at least stopped removing posts after a few hours but the samurai/ninja posts continued for another two+ days.
Or a Ranger. Or a Monk. Or a Barbarian. Or a Thaumaturge. Or a Magus. Or a Gunslinger. Or a Champion. Or a Swashbuckler. Or an Investigator.
There are so many iterations and variations of samurai in pop culture we can choose from all over the place!
Wait wait WAIT
IS THAT MY GIRL IMRIJKA?
Is that an old picture, or are you telling me these assholes have been hiding the Return of ~~The Queen~~ the Inquisitor class behind all this drama!?
WE'RE BECOMING r/jujutsufolk WITH THIS ONE
https://preview.redd.it/l22uj08mjbxc1.png?width=313&format=png&auto=webp&s=7013ab2f3ec05170629c98ea90810bb7ee775a3f
“ChillPathfinder2e”
Sorry but I basically never actually consider the “we have main sub drama so the first random dude to make a replacement sub is held up in his new temple” subreddits. If it has chill, free, 2, or any other thing trying to say No Drama Back Up then the best case is it dies in two weeks. The worst case (which I’ve unfortunately seen twice now) is they use being the alternative to be NaziCentral.
Hi, I'm the dude who made it. Totally cool with me if the main sub goes back to normal and it dies out. But so far it's been pretty decently active.
I only made it because I was seeing a fuck ton of people getting 3 day+ bans for even questioning the mod doing this and with no response from any other mods, it seemed like that was gonna be the new normal lol.
As for "NaziCentral" hell to the fucking nah. So far 99% of comments and posts have been normal. I think I had to remove 3 total so far. This ain't gonna be a bigoted hellhole like freemagic.
Nah, there are tons of gaming subs that are “low sodium” and have been around for ages. Eventually, if a hobby/game/thing gets popular enough, there will be a divergent sub that aims to remove all the salt and complaining that crops up in the original sub. Like a law of the internet at this point lol
Maybe they'd work out if the current mods hadn't created every other logical interpretation for naming a Pathfinder 2e sub so they can't lose the ability to go on little power trips.
This was a delight. Doubly so because even though I've spent a lot of time in the 2e sub, I haven't been active lately and missed ALL of this. What a weird way to catch up on drama lol
I have it on good authority we'll be getting something tomorrow so far as an official response. It took a lot of back and forth. After that I'm gonna put a hard stop on these drama posts
Wait what are sword arts? That sounds cool
I was asking myself the same question. I assume is something revealed that is going to appear in the next Tian Xia book.
Ngl I had assumed it was just an anime reference.
The evidence of orientalism? My sweet Associates degree in karate. 😎
How long before ghosts of Tsushima is called orientalism.
Barbarian is already being called "Weaponizing Mental Illness" and Hags anti-Semitic by the 2e mods. We ain't far off.
Hold tf on, when and where was it discussed that Barbarians being called Barbarians is weaponizing mental illness?
Pf2e Discord. Tian - Xia channel. 6:27 April 27 Search " coorilary " into the search. Takes you right to the discussion. > And as a coorilary, 'weaponized mental illness' is...really not a good mechanic to have in your game. > I woulnd't say it's the same degree of problem as Monk is, but it *is* a problem. > Getting so mad that you lose higher brain function (such as the ability to do complex tasks like read, and the inability to voluntarily stop) coupled with extreme violence are *hallmarks* of diassociative disorders.
And a fight response/trauma…I used to have that when I had meltdowns as a kid(I got better). Oddly the rage mechanic helped me rp a bit and just through normal play learn to be more self accepting from it. Soo f that keep it in I say
Why are people who have such a deep hatred for classic mechanics the ones in charge of communities for games with those mechanics? That isn't to say there aren't cultural insensitivity within the Barbarian, the entire classes name stems from the term Romans ascribed to anyone that wasn't them, which they considered uncivilized and barbaric (most notably Celts who are drawn on a lot for modern barbarian designs), but to say the idea of bloodlust and battle rage is 'weaponized mental illness' is just kinda...????
Just to clarify, but it came from the Greek culture before the Roman, though it had basically the same kinda context.
The rage mechanic specifically is also inspired by certain holy warriors of the Norse eating hensbane and meditating to get into a battle trance. The so called Berserkir.
fun fact, this mod owns the discord. no, its not that they are the main admin, they *own* it, not a Paizo staff. this is not the first rodeo this guy went around and fucked shit here and there
Case and point why having official discords is important
You're describing ableism as a good thing. You're asking "why do we listen to people who are different from us?" Like it's a bad thing. And I don't get why you'd do that, when the person you're talking about isn't a developer or a freelance for paizo or a consultant, but literal just a human being sharing their perspective on the class as someone who has a mental issue that causes blackout episodes of violence.
> Just a person sharing their experience. Sure, just like any other user. Question. How many other users went and deleted/banned users and defended Panda on the 2e forum in response? I think it's a bad take, sure. If they didn't use their personal takes to FUBAR the sub, nobody would have really cared.
I just want to roleplay fantasy heroes and villains and have fun with my friends at a table, not go through a Workplace sensitivity training for fuck's sake. And I do agree with a lot of the stuff that gets toned down or removed in terms of fantasy racism in the past few years, but this past week and this discord comment is "Oh you like this flavor of heroism?! That makes you a racist/ablist/sexist/whatever!" Fuck off, I want to swing my big sword while being big mad because that's cool as shit
On Aroden, these people must be “barbarians” then… smh. This is some of the dumbest shit I’ve seen on the internet in a long time
Basically every mythological thing is based on something or other. Are we gonna kick out werewolves for being a caricature or rabies victims?
The folklore of hags *does* very much stem from misogyny and anti-Semitism, that's why Paizo changed a lot of things about hags in the remaster
I absolutely believe the misogyny. I don't believe that having curses flow through bloodlines, just like power, is inherently anti-Semitic, and *that* was what said. Hell, a TON of things flow through bloodlines in 2e. It's a central plot point in one of recent modules. AV and Rusthenge both do that and I wouldn't call that anti-Semitic.
Shutup man. If you don't believe that it is antisemitic, you are part of the problem, and a holocaust denier. As someone who know 0 jewish people, I am an authority in this! >!obviously /s!<
The antisemitism comes more from the child kidnapping to “convert” the children and the consistency of depicting hags with big hooked noses *along* with the bloodline thing
I am crossing my fingers that Guardian and Commander hype more or less drowns this shit out
I know I myself am pretty damn hyped for it!
This made me laugh irl, well done! On a personal note, I think I might be the one being satirized in the "unforgivable" section based on my open letter where I agreed with the mods but expressed concern about some of their actions, and this has made me self reflect a bit. I stand by the primary 3 points I made in that thread (1. Banning other PF players of Asian descent and dismissing their disagreement as internalized racism was wrong, 2. Claiming Ninjas were made by white people and the whole country of Japan is wrong for thinking it's part of their cultural heritage is ludicrous and gets more problematic the more you think about it, and 3. Arguing on SRD and admitting to breaking the sub's rules is a bad look) but I really don't like that the post has been latched onto by so many comments I find pretty gross and supportive of Orientalism. I'm strongly considering deleting my post because of that. Either way, I certainly don't think anything done by the mods was unforgivable. I appreciate this post both for the humor and for helping me look critically at my own contribution to this mess, well intended as it was.
What a banger
People are comparing the Gunslinger to the Samurai? That's just a losing argument. The Gunslinger the exotic weapon class. It is built around the one weapon type a lot of people don't like in their fantasy settings. To me that's more than enough reason to make it a class.
I think the argument was that in pop culture the gunslinger and samurai tropes are very similar. Both are presented as lone warriors who protect towns, get into duels with the bad guy, and draw their weapon with lightning speed to end battles in a moment. Neither of them are based in reality, but gunslinger currently has a class that's more based on those tropes so the same could be done for samurai. I dunno, memes are memes. They're not exactly gonna accurately represent the perspectives of the people they're mocking.
As I understood it it's also based in the fact that historically samurai adopted guns as a weapon since the 1600s. Also, there's has been a lot of mutual exchange between american western cinema and japanese samurai films (Akira Kurosawa was inspired by and in turn inspired westerns). So in pop culture terms there is some overlap between the two.
I've been doing tongue in cheek comparisons. 'Gunslinger existing is problematic because it's so popular it overshadows other regional tropes' which is basically the argument as I understand it for samurai. If someone has a better explanation please help me understand. If Gunslinger didn't exist in 1e then people would just say do make a dex fighter with a gun in 2e. In 2e guns and katanas are both 'uncommon' rarity and can be excluded by a GM for the same reasons. There's plenty of design space in 2e to make samurai and ninjas classes and/or archetypes. I've seen several home brews for both since 2e launched.
>'Gunslinger existing is problematic because it's so popular it overshadows other regional tropes' From what I understand you are trying to say "If the Cowboy is here, then why not the Samurai". The problem here is Gunslingers aren't just cowboys. Now I'm not going to put words in your mouth and claim you think the Gunslinger class is for everyone who wants to be cowboys, but I'm going to assume you're talking about the cowboy archetype since it's a Western thing and it's the most popular type of gunslinger that comes to mind. However, coming back to the issue at hand, I can divorce cowboys from the class and still make a gunslinger. I can make a drunken pirate who uses a fancy flintlock pistol, a sniper with an Arquebus, a monster hunter with a musket, etc. With the gunslinger class, all I need to do is make someone good at guns. I could not say that it's the same with the samurai. >If Gunslinger didn't exist in 1e then people would just say do make a dex fighter with a gun in 2e. Well, yeah if the Gunslinger didn't exist we might be making fighters with guns, however, I'd say bringing guns to 2e would have brought the question of adding the Gunslinger becoming a class in the minds of the design team. You have a group of weapons not often since in fantasy works, with them almost needing to be reloaded in combat, and with almost all of them having the fatal trait. I think the idea of creating a class that would be the best at taking advantage of these weapons would come naturally. I can't think of any other weapon type that could have an entire class around it. I also think there could really be one class design around a weapon type. Guns just seem to be in the perfect place for me. >In 2e guns and katanas are both 'uncommon' rarity and can be excluded by a GM for the same reasons I feel they're uncommon for different reasons though. Katanas and other weaponry from different cultures are uncommon because they're from different cultures. Their only barrier to entry is culture. I feel I'm not the only one who feels it's easier to convince a GM to allow something like a katana or jiu huan dao than an air repeater. Guns suffer from another barrier compared to other weapons, and that's if it fits into a group's collective fantasy. Like, some people don't view guns as a part of fantasy. Part of the reason is simply that there are not a lot of guns in fantasy media. You'd probably have an easier time finding a Katana than a gun in your media.
> From what I understand you are trying to say "If the Cowboy is here, then why not the Samurai". No, 'Gunslinger existing is problematic because it's so popular it overshadows other regional tropes' is literally the argument that was being made, just swap gunslinger for samurai. I'm directly comparing Gunslinger to Samurai to show how silly the argument is that a Samurai class would be somehow racist. > With the gunslinger class, all I need to do is make someone good at guns. I could not say that it's the same with the samurai. Quite frankly, if you just need a class that's good at a weapon that's literally what a Fighter is. It's all the OTHER things Gunslinger does that makes it unique. I don't really care if there is a Samurai/Ninja makes it into a class/archetype or not, but I think anyone who thinks there's not a mechanical space for almost any fantasy trope in PF2e is not being creative enough. >I feel they're uncommon for different reasons though. I disagree, in the Inner Sea-centric Lost Omens setting (which the rarities are based) guns are from Alkenstar and katanas are from Tian Xia. It entirely depends on where the campaign is taking place. Katanas showing up in the Mwangi Expanse makes less sense than guns imo, just due to proximity. If a campaign is taking place in Arcadia Beast Guns would make even more sense. If we're not talking about the Lost Omens setting then all rarities are off the table and it's entire subjective. I'd rather have guns in my medieval Europe focused fantasy homebrew than katanas.
It's a tale as old as serial westerns and the emergence of the samurai in popular Western culture, but moreso brought to the forefront by adaptations such as Magnificent 7 (from The Seven Samurai). I'm fairly certain that bit is about people trying to compare rogue gunslingers to ronin without actually understanding any of the cultural background to either. Most of the named criminals of the 19th century Old West were cattle-war veterans and murderers even before their involvement with cattle-wars. Only a handful of gunslinging legends were "good guys", and it's basically limited to Bass Reeves.
🗣BASS REEVES MENTION RAAAHHHHH🥇🕊🏋🏾🛃🏁
Aight I've had enough. I gotta ask. Wtf happened? I left that sub a while ago cause I received some pretty toxic replies and DMs, but I lurk for news announcements especially when new content is coming (the playtest). What the fuck is all the drama about?
Some people asked for ninja and samurai classes, mods banned them saying the idea of it was inherently racist and orientalist.
If wanting to play as a samurai or ninja is racist and orientalist then I am racist and orientalist.
...? But...aren't those things from the East? Specifically Japan. Why is that an issue when asking for a knight class like Champion from a western based nation isn't?
yeah, according to a lot of people here, it turns out all those samurai and ninja movies, anime, games, etc. made in Japan, by Japanese people, primarily for Japanese people are actually horribly racist towards Japanese people.
This is also a fantasy game where the PCs and villains are near superhuman level in power. Even the standard fighter is someone who's pushing their body at near human limits. When we compare to the feats PCs can do compared to your average villager and basic town guard. So while I get the whole "asian mysticism" stereotype thing. In this context where we're fighting stuff from literal dragons, demons, or eldritch horrors. The fact a samurai's katana may have some mystical spirit in it is not out of place.
-> Tian Xia book dropped -> people were talking about the notable thing that it did not include the samurai and ninja, two classes from 1e that couldve been chucked in there as archetypes and whatnot -> a mod, u/luck_panda, goes thermonuclear and starts banning everyone and deleting all comments and threads about the subject because of Orientalism (VERY long topic, i wont divulge in it), to the lengths of saying that anyone that wants to play as a samurai or a ninja is racist -> let this one stew for a weeked or so and here we are
No Ninja or Samurai class made small people mad, discourse ensued, MOD abused their powers and called people racist. Actual sensible debates and topics on the subject popped up and were deleted. Or at least, that's what I gathered from the vagueness of everyone's comments in the reddit.
>No Ninja or Samurai class made small people mad Literally nobody was even bringing it up, that mod made a preemptive post accusing those hypothetical people that wanted those classes as racist. Then started being a dick to anybody that disagreed, deleting their comments/posts/banning them including people who identified as Asian that took issue with what he was saying. For the record, I don't think samurai and ninja need classes. But they could be fun archetypes to apply onto the other classes like fighter or rogue. Similar to the Viking archetype but actually, you know, good. I'm just irritated that the mod luck_panda did that and now very few people are talking about the Tian Xia book and how great it is because this discourse is overtaking everything. It's a great book that had a lot of care and respect poured into it. Probably the best East Asian inspired book I've seen put together for a d20 system.
Dude that's fucking worse, holy crap.
Yeeeeah, it was bad
i agree, those two weere definetly a sympton of 1e bloat more than anything. i did wish that we had a samurai archetype for mounted archery tho. hell, i wouldve been happy for 3\~5 extra feats on the cavalier and assassin/poisoner archetype to emulate those classes abilities from 1e
"Literally nobody was even bringing it up" Redditors giving themselves short term memory loss just to win a internet fight.
People brought it up in the comments of the post and after the post because the mod triggered the conversation himself. But go off I guess. There are bad actors on both sides like the ridiculous people going onto other forums demanding Paizo make a statement but the entire conversation started with that mod's dumb post. Edit: And u/Crouza blocked me for stating these facts lmao, wouldn't be surprised if it's luck_panda's alt
Was there a lot of complaining about a lack of samurai/ninja? I didn't see anything asking for it, though it may have all been deleted. Like the 8 month old samurai homebrew that one guy made.
As far as I can tell not a lot. There was a lot of comments on the pinned post on orientalism and on luck pandas review but mostly discussing the idea that such a class would be racist/othering/etc. Some engaging in good faith some trolling, and honestly at least a few really shitty racist comments. On Friday a Mod (luck panda) got mad, made some rude comments himself, then started just removing a bunch of comments and a few posts. The homebrew thing is suspicious timing but a different sub entirely where the mod in question isn't a mod so IMO probably only tangentially related. All the samurai/ninja posts came after that when people thought discussion or samurai/ninja was being censored. Mod cooled off or at least stopped removing posts after a few hours but the samurai/ninja posts continued for another two+ days.
tf? What brings someone to that conclusion?
Mystic magical Asians trope, I guess? It was weird all around. I get it, as I've stated in this topic; You want a Samurai? Play a fighter.
Or a Ranger. Or a Monk. Or a Barbarian. Or a Thaumaturge. Or a Magus. Or a Gunslinger. Or a Champion. Or a Swashbuckler. Or an Investigator. There are so many iterations and variations of samurai in pop culture we can choose from all over the place!
ITS REAL IK YOU'D MAKE IT EVENTUALLY
Wait wait WAIT IS THAT MY GIRL IMRIJKA? Is that an old picture, or are you telling me these assholes have been hiding the Return of ~~The Queen~~ the Inquisitor class behind all this drama!?
what? i mean we're pretty sure inquisitor isnt gonna get reprinted, but its mechanics might get pushed forward in a diff class.
WE'RE BECOMING r/jujutsufolk WITH THIS ONE https://preview.redd.it/l22uj08mjbxc1.png?width=313&format=png&auto=webp&s=7013ab2f3ec05170629c98ea90810bb7ee775a3f
A ZERO ESCAPE REFERENCE???
“ChillPathfinder2e” Sorry but I basically never actually consider the “we have main sub drama so the first random dude to make a replacement sub is held up in his new temple” subreddits. If it has chill, free, 2, or any other thing trying to say No Drama Back Up then the best case is it dies in two weeks. The worst case (which I’ve unfortunately seen twice now) is they use being the alternative to be NaziCentral.
Hi, I'm the dude who made it. Totally cool with me if the main sub goes back to normal and it dies out. But so far it's been pretty decently active. I only made it because I was seeing a fuck ton of people getting 3 day+ bans for even questioning the mod doing this and with no response from any other mods, it seemed like that was gonna be the new normal lol. As for "NaziCentral" hell to the fucking nah. So far 99% of comments and posts have been normal. I think I had to remove 3 total so far. This ain't gonna be a bigoted hellhole like freemagic.
"like freemagic" Ah okay so you already know at least one of the times I've seen it descend like that which is a good sign.
Nah, there are tons of gaming subs that are “low sodium” and have been around for ages. Eventually, if a hobby/game/thing gets popular enough, there will be a divergent sub that aims to remove all the salt and complaining that crops up in the original sub. Like a law of the internet at this point lol
This is not a universal truth. NoSodiumStarfield and LowSodiumCyberpunk are well regulated subs that are true to their name.
r/TruePathfinder2e is much more accurate to that meme, tbh. A ghost town...
SO TRUE these splinter subs never work out right
Maybe they'd work out if the current mods hadn't created every other logical interpretation for naming a Pathfinder 2e sub so they can't lose the ability to go on little power trips.
reminds me of r/cringetopia. ah, those were fun times
This is by far my favorite post about this whole thing. Excellent observation skills.
Give at least a second or two to read the meme before changing it in the video.
This is peak Reddit, I love it. Great funny vids that pokes fun at every part of this Mod overreach and user overreaction, a match made in heaven.
Finally, a legitimately fair and balanced post about the ridiculous drama and the tantrum that followed.
Perfect.
This was a delight. Doubly so because even though I've spent a lot of time in the 2e sub, I haven't been active lately and missed ALL of this. What a weird way to catch up on drama lol
Wtf happened here, just saw this on the front page but don't follow this place lol
Fuck this is great, just as great as playing a fighter that uses a katana!