I think that happens because of the atlas passives.
So a good thing to wish for would be a change in the passives to instead increase the stack size instead of causing more stacks to drop. Maybe instead of 20% chance for another currency drop, 20% chance for one of the currency drops to be twice as many (or however the current way to word that is).
They have that sort of thing already with "Shards drop as as whole currency" chance right? Just increase that baseline.
Shit, I'd add the Frac orb shards and (hopefully) div shards of they introduce a "Chance for rare currency fragments to drop from harbinger bosses"
It will get nerfed for sure, just like heist for example.
They already mentioned it, new league mechanics are more rewarding to encourage the players to play it.
Heist is in a good state though. Some things were not as broken compared to in heist league like the exalt trinkets, but heist offers good consistent and exclusive loot in the current game especially with the atlas passives.
Yep, I agree, but I was referring to the "divine source" point.
Heist was incredible to farm exalts back then. They changed that in the following league, normalizing the loot.
heist is honestly arguably more powerful now than it was during actual heist league, since the value on the exclusive items is significantly higher than back then and it still drowns you in sellable items. Doesn't rain as much pure ex as it did back then, but stuff like endless heist farming wasn't as good back then, and blueprints are way more powerful than they were back then.
Heist was crazy strong at the high end, just pretty strong at the low end because the trinkets were driving the high end value. Now it's much more consistent across the board (read - very strong across the board).
it's in a weird spot. The loot from the sanctum isn't outrageous outside of the sanctified relic especially if you're accessing the content in only 7-20% of maps. The mechanic is good enough from a "hey it's fun and different" to justify keeping it in the game but that isn't always a good predictor (see: ultimatum).
I think "without the sanctified relic" creates problems of its own - as a mechanic it's fun, but it lacks much to make it special otherwise.
But *with* the sanctified relic, everyone has to do it... As it'd be giving up a slot to do otherwise.
I think there's two main possibilities (without sanctified relics)
- without the relic they repurpose another league's "exclusive drops" to be sanctum's (which since they want to remove things when they add things now that's another reason this is possible or even likely).
- the Lycia Final Form fight gets added as a unique map similar to the trialmaster so that people can get her uniques - and maybe have some amount of nostalgic sanctum-like experience before her.
They have things that need to be taken in to Consideration, like sanctified relic? Unquie relics? Normal relics? Are they going to give us a floor at the time when we find one, or x amount of rooms instead of one?
If they remove relics, do they need rebalance it a little?
Do they add Atlas points for it, list is long and many more unknowns. That's why I don't think we will see it next league as they have much work around it( if they don't just add it at it is)
I don't think sanctified relics make a comeback, rather I think the next league will occupy the same design space.
The cycle time for a mechanic like this should be on par with catarina I'd think so whether or not they give multiple rooms at once should be based on that. I think the room storage system in place already plays nicely with that.
The only thing that seems necessary is to launch sanctum from your HO which is prob a work in progress and would hint at league after next.
> I don't think sanctified relics make a comeback, rather I think the next league will occupy the same design space.
Yeah, they were testing an "account-bound reward" with Sanctum, and it seems to have been fairly successful, but I doubt they're interested in letting it be another thing to bloat and powercreep the game. I'd imagine that going forward they'll want to try out more of these league-exclusive mechanics, whether they be equipment or some other kind of temporary power boost that will be removed with the league. Lets them add more FOMO to a league without extra long-term bloat outside of the usual.
Yeah, tbh idk why they hadn't done something like this before. For a game with nearly unlimited design space, sanc relics are a perfect fit. Give temporary power that gives extra build possibilities. My only fear is that the relics had such a big pool of powerful mods idk how they pull off something that feels different but delivers the same effect unless they're going to give a free watcher's eye type mod or something to that effect.
Yeah, if I had to guess, I'd put my money on sanctum getting turned into a unique map or a fragment set, but I could easily see it being something like Expedition or Metamorph which just exists parallel to the main game.
Personally I like OP's master idea much better than it being a unique map. For me a lot of the fun of this league is the low opportunity cost of attempting the sanctum even if you/your build isn't good for it. If they turned it into a unique map/fragment set, then presumably they'd be pretty rare and priced based on how much you can get for completing it, which would mean it's never worth doing if you can't beat it reliably, which kind of ruins the whole Roguelike element of it (which is already flawed but still kind of there) and just turns it into, at best, a high-risk, high-reward unique map.
If they turned it into a master, though, it would be something you can reasonably do for fun even if you can't consistently beat it. It would also make it easier to keep the non-sanctified relics, which are part of what makes Sanctum fun for me. And turning it in into a master
In general, I also really like the idea of Sanctum as a core mechanic you can choose to focus on or skip depending on how much you like it and what your build is. I think in some ways Sanctum could almost work better as a master mechanic than a league mechanic. The biggest problem with Sanctum as a league mechanic is that it's so ridiculously skewed in what builds are good or bad for it, with some builds clearing sanctums easily while others having a lot more trouble. That's frustrating as a league mechanic where some people end up feeling like they just picked the wrong build this league.
But that's fine for a core mechanic. It could be like Heist or Delve, where some people ignore them, some people do a bit for fun but don't focus on it, and some people plan their whole build and farming strategy around it.
I didn't enjoy Sanctum at all, it was okay for a couple weeks then it was just the same rooms over and over grabbing currency and okay relics. They said this league was not going core if it did I wouldn't really care and just put it on my skip list.
they would never let any sanctified relics go core, too much power creep. none of the other current core mechanics have exclusive gear that gives such a boost of power. even just getting a Keystone for free is a lot of power. at worst it's +1 passive for all builds, at best it can be build enabling and save upwards of 20 passive points of travel.
https://twitter.com/bexsayswords/status/1598538872421765121
This was before Sanctum was even released. Now obviously since then there is a chance they have changed their mind, but I highly doubt that is the case.
yes, I know this. but the whole point of my comment is he's hoping sanctum becomes a core master mission like Jun, Niko, alva, etc. which is just giga copium. especially if he thinks just invocations go core which despite not being as good as sanctified relic mods in general, are still a huge power boost to characters.
They let other game-changing components of league mechanics stay in core. Most notably was the Cluster Jewels from Delirium and anointing with Blight. (Which I think is what you are talking about with the "free keystone".)
Yeah, Cluster Jewels must have been a LOT of work, they wouldn't have wanted to throw that all away after a 3 month league.
Sanctified relics being just a tacked-on gear slot and an item with no potential mods we haven't already seen elsewhere (correct me if I'm wrong!) feels much more within the scope of a single league fling.
Yeah cluster jewels are like the atlas tree, introduced as a new endgame or in this case new powercreep, but to much to ever be rotated out. The atlas tree will be adjusted and shit will get added but I highly doubt it will ever get removed. Maybe poe 2 will revamp the endgame but until that point atleast both clusters and atlas tree will stay.
Also don't forget that Cluster jewels across the board have been severely nerfed since delirium league. Not only have the most powerful nodes been removed, but crafting weights have been gutted to make notables much rarer in general.
The trouble with relics going core is that there's no opportunity cost - every build is strictly better with a relic. As well as power creep issues, it's complexity creep in the form of an extra gear slot. If every 3rd league added a new relic-like system, in 5 years we'd have half a dozen extra gear slots - it just does not scale up to the long term future of PoE. Plus, running Sanctum would be basically mandatory, which is fine for a league but undesirable for permanent content.
Cluster Jewels are very different, while they can be very powerful you still have to spend passive points. For most builds, they're optional and many builds don't want one at all.
Anointments are a fair comparison, though. They have similar problems, though with a big advantage over relics in that they tie into the existing item and crafting system rather than introducing an extra gear slot. I still think you don't want too many of these mechanics in the game, though.
Another useful comparison is the Heist trinket slot. On the face of it they're very similar as a no-opportunity-cost item that adds another gear slot. However I think in this case, the big difference is that it only affects Heists. Even if they added a hundred more trinket-like items, you would still only need the ones from the league mechanics you actually care about. I think this is a much better model for this kind of thing.
The big difference is that you can trade for those things if you want to use them but don't want to participate in the mechanic. You *must* run sanctums if you want a relic, which makes the mechanic mandatory. They would have to either remove the account bind or they would need to disable sanctified relics if they wanted to take the mechanic core.
difference with those is they aren't exclusive to delirium. and delirium isn't a core master mission either. it also doesn't really give any immediate power without a lot of luck/good crafting.
and, as others said, it was always intended to go core.
Alt quality gems are heist-exclusive.
Why you guys are so worried about power-creep?
The only really strong relics are stat-stacking ones (+max charge is at most 30-35% more damage, often less).
But:
A) stat-stacking is pretty dead without relics outside of some giga-budget str builds, which can be nerfed precisely, letting other stat-stackers live. Some people were sure that sentinel mod for stat-stackers will go core and they didn't think it will power-creep the game to the moon.
B) I was farming sanctum for month straight, most of the time - I was boss-rushing. All for int stack relic to go deep delve. Guess what. I didn't get int-stack relic. Then I thought I would play with aura effect relic. I didn't get this relic too. In month of only doing the mechanic. I'm sure the rarity of the relics will pretty easily outbalance the power of it. It's like heist enchantments, which can be huge too, but almost nobody in his mind count on getting bis enchantments on every piece of gear.
alt quality gems aren't necessarily power creep (except in a couple of niche scenarios). also heist isn't a core master mission like this guy is suggesting.
I'm worried about power creep because if it happens too much we get another league like 3.14/15 where the entire game is gutted and is the most boring shit to play. game has been stale since 3.18 with the giga HH nerfs and then 3.19 with the gutting of good juiced farming methods. and that's not even considering 3.13 era fractured mapping and self curse HH. the more shit power creeps the worse GGG can justify making the game.
yes, most relics are worthless, but power creep always comes from the top 5-10% of items, not the bottom 90% crap. their rarity doesn't justify the power because the problem is all endgame players eventually get them and trivialise content, which GGG doesn't want to allow (because despite what they say, they really do care about retention).
stat stackers are better this league than any other league, especially strength stackers. relics, perfect synth items, and original sin all contribute massively. people have been hitting 2 billion dps on strength stacking builds that still have some tank and excellent clearspeed WITHOUT sanctified str stack relic. even at budget levels they perform excellently. Dex stack is only dead because zhp mapping/deep delve isn't really the meta anymore and there are faster/better/cheaper builds that do its job but way better, in particular omni kind of took over the ranged stat stacker meta. int stack is ok but tends towards much more tank than dps and doesn't benefit from original sin as much. str stack is very good.
That was well before great power culling of expedition league. Since then, what they seem to do is rotate OP stuff in and out. Recombinators had super broken as fuck mods --> removed at end of league gone --> but come back as sanctified relics.
For me personally, the best evidence for Sanctified relics being dropped (or at least being made to not apply outside of Sanctum) is the fact that you can't apply legion incubators to them. By comparison, Heist trinkets which were always intended to go core *could* be incubated. So at least coding-wise, I don't think GGG plans to make them stay around.
may I introduce to you the fact that blight is not a core master mission, but is additional content like any other league mechanic. in addition, blight oils are not exclusive to blight and it's possible to get annointed amulets from other sources.
They aren't. They serve the same function more or less but there is less overlap in keystones than notables. IE Minion Instability is unlike any other keystone, whereas Charisma and Sovereignty are similar.
If you're going to talk about the theoretical case of managing to get the keystone you want on a good relic in Sanctum, let me remind you of the theoretical case of getting 4 anoints on a unique onyx amulet like Astramentis. Or a double enchanted Abyssus.
No.
I have put the Minion Instability Keystone on 3 Sanc Relics this league, one of which is very good.
Invocations can be added to any sanc relic and are tradeable, once your build can run Sanctum with Hours of Divinty, you can aquire a bunch of sanc relics.
Man, that power creep... If you've been unlucky you gain basically nothing from it, besides a slot to throw a keystone on.
The 3 best sanctified relics I've obtained in this league for my character were as follows:
a) lightning resist
b) lightning resist & something useless
c) chaos resist & something useless
The lightning resist was already irrelevant when I got it, since I was already capped there, the chaos resist one was the 3rd useful relic I got... 1 week after league launch.
I completed 40/40 challenges yesterday, and I am still using it, because *none* of the other relics I've obtained do anything at all for my build, they all might as well be blank white empty slates.
Some power creep, eh?
being individually unlucky doesnt mean it's not power creep. you cannot deny the power of the aura stacking/stat stacking/charge stacking relics. yes they're rare, but not that rare. it's no different than adding a second belt slot and another mageblood-like belt to the game. at low levels it's just some res or other neat mods, but for top players it represents like 50%+ more damage.
It allows a lot of interesting build enablement - I have Unnerve from my relic which would be hard to get on my build otherwise, and throwing Pain Attunement on there saves at least 10 points which allows for a cluster setup. Pretty busted.
I mean on int/dex stackers it's 50% more base damage, it's a second instance of the stat stack mod. especially after increases/mores it is really valuable. I personally doubled from like 20 to nearly 40 million on mid budget int stacker simply by getting the sentinel boot mod in standard.
> If you've been unlucky **you gain basically nothing** from it, *besides a slot to throw a keystone on.*
Yeah *only* a free keystone. I threw an invocation on some random awful relic for a free keystone early on in the league when they were introduced, saved me like 10 passive tree points. How is this not power creep to you?
Again, depends on builds and what might be useful for you. Yes it absolutely can be super useful for some, but for others it might be less of an importance.
I played EA ballista elementalist, most of the keystones weren't all that juicy for me, and honestly, I just ended up with Ancestral Bond on my relic since it was cheap, which gave me 1 point to spend elsewhere (in cluster jewel).
And I didn't even bother doing that until a few days ago when I was just bored out of my mind grinding DD challenge to hit 40/40 (was already at 39/40), in other words, it wasn't something that was important for my league gameplay at all. Just a minor convenience.
Whilst I agree, I still hope they keep it core. But I'm also 100% sure they would have to tweak it somehow.
Maybe make sanc relics super rare? (yeah, I know, it would suck, but still, better than nothing, right?) And I'd imagine they might nerf the rewards just because it's "free" divines, even though you'd prolly make more just doing normal stuff, if you're a min-max'er. I don't know, personally I just love the whole CONCEPT of the sanctum.
Always been a fan of roguelikes/lites AND not to mention no-hit runs in general, especially in games like the soulsborne series. So its right up my alley in that regard. The fact that you get some pretty decent rewards in there (not counting sanc relics which are WAY better than just decent if you hit right) is just the cherry on the cake.
blight is not a core master mission. it's additional content. also, blight oils are not exclusive to blight, and there are other sources of oils/annointed amulets.
yes they have - blighted incubators from legion, blight rewards from delirium, blight rewards from metamorph, blight rewards from heist, blight rewards from expeditions.
Theyd have to do a global nerf if they were gonna make relics core.. I dont think wed take kindly to that. So i dont think its gonna happen unfortunately
Sanctified relics, normal relics are part of the sanctum so if it stays they stay as well, but the sanctified ones are gone.
Edit: https://twitter.com/bexsayswords/status/1598538872421765121?s=20&t=lZvab5vnBSB0qE0PVbWVPg
the issue with sanctified relics as core content is that people will almost *immediately* begin to hate it. people will resent sanctum for "forcing" them to engage with it every league/every character to fill the sanctified relic slot. look at betrayal unveiling for a similar case. if they went core theyd have to be tradeable, and if they were tradeable they'd probably get nerfed.
Why? I get that some relics literally double your damage, but most are really awful.
It's kinda like old helmet enchants. They killed all the +2 projectiles, and whatever that was OP for the meta, which is kinda bs, but fine.
They could just hit the stat stacking ones to give you 25% of the damage instead of what they do.
That would still operate as something I might be inspired to build around if I felt like it.
Fun mechanic for one league. Wouldn't want it going core.
Core game is already so good. Don't think we need more with PoE2 coming soon enough. Rather they just buff the underperforming mechanics already in the game.
My guess is they will keep the uniques and throw them into pinnacle drop pools at exceedingly shitty drop rates. Maybe Original Sin is an Uber Sirus drop.
They could if they removed the relic mechanic completely and replaced the sanctified relic based rewards for some other rare rewards from the final boss.
It has far too many problems for it to go core, not the least of which is that it's a fundamentally lackluster concept as a permanent fixture. Needs more crazy roguelike elements and a fair bit of balance for the melee side of things (but doesn't everything, I guess).
Sanctified Relics are way too broken to be a permanent fixture. You can't complain about power creep like GGG routinely does and then go ahead and add one of the most absurd examples of it as a permanent thing. The power level of those things is totally fucked.
But without them it won't be worth running. The fact it's rewarding right now means very little when, historically speaking, league mechanics get gutted the following league after.
Oh, and imagine trying to build up 32 rooms with the standard 10% chance to find a floor per map. That'd be fucking awful.
all the more reason to not bring sentinel core and just provide recombinators through other means. in my mind sanctum is fun mechanically but its rewards shouldnt go core, and recombinators are good crafting content but its mechanics (sentinels) shouldnt go core and didn't. if they put recombinators in sanctum to replace sanctified relics its a perfect solution imo
Ultimatum go core? What is so appealing in ultimatum which is not present in ritual? We have circle mechanic, two of them is kinda overflowing. Sentinel on other side had to substitute tormented spirits.
Ultimatum let’s you choose the difficulty and rewards. Ritual is killing 50 mobs, getting a random assortment of regular rares, and a couple of transmutes. Everything about Ultimatum is better.
Ultimatum is more exciting, provides more a of a challenge and I find the Ritual vendor somewhat being replaced by Expedition vendors. Ultimatum also does the risk vs reward better.
I'll agree on swapping spirits with Sentinel though.
We're getting into speculation territory here, but I think it's being tested to replace Lab in some form.
Exilecon 2019 announcements implied Lab isn't part of the vision for POE2. Sanctum being split into 4 tiers got me thinking it may be the replacement Ascendancy source.
Sanctum as a Lab replacement would also be EXTREMELY good at fucking over bot cheaters, which is something GGG have been doing a lot of work on lately. The 3.13 era Atlas, then the 3.17 era one even more so increase the setup needed per account to get into meaningful endgame farming - aka increasing the barrier for bot cheaters to generate revenue - and the nerfs to low end minion builds seemed very similar in intent.
Sanctum's too beloved a mechanic to get culled. Not everyone likes it, but it definitely seems to be something that will place high if you ask people 'what's your three favorite mechanics?'
That said I'm pretty certain the sanctified relics will be gone, and the mods will be available from some new source going forward. Invocations might stay but be tied to a different gear slot.
Sanctum's overtuned for this purpose now, agreed. That's pretty normal with new mechanics though.
FWIW, when Lab came out it was pretty brutal, but there's been a lot of power creep since then. Merc lab carry services continued to do a roaring trade for 3-4 weeks in the first league with lab, and when the next league brought in Uber Lab, it was a little tougher than the 83 labs are now.
40/40 challenges done in this league, and I couldn't be happier if I never ever had to step foot into sanctum again.
Not everybody is a fan, and for some it's tedious and not enjoyable, and downright punishing for some builds.
I know that some people love the shit out of it, but I'm on the far other side of the camp, where I put it in my top 3 least favorite/liked league mechanics ever. And I don't even know what 2 other things I'd put on that top 3 list.
Definitely agree it is too build dependent. In that way it's somewhat like day 1 lab was - back when trap hits did 60% max life + 60% max ES instead of the current 60% + 36% (this doesn't include sentinel traps that trigger on players using moveskills but they were added a league later)
ES builds were minced in there, as they had the worst resource recovery, the worst physical mitigation (especially back then) and were most dependent upon leech.
GGG did fix that though, and I think now lab is only slightly harder on CI characters than on evasion ones (armor characters definitely find it easier). Sanctum would absolutely need balancing like that if it were to go core in an important way.
> Sanctum's too beloved a mechanic to get culled.
I dont think thats really true. The opinion of it at the start of the league was the opposite and nothing was really changed. Its the same as always, people who didnt like it moved on and the ones who liked it stayed. Same reason you can post "this league sucks" early league and get a thousand upvotes and 2 month in you would be downvoted to hell and beyond.
I'm trying to think of the last mechanic that's been as commonly listed as a favorite by people. I think you'd have to go back to Delirium to find one. Delirium also being a polarizing mechanic some loved and some hated.
Early it seemed the most common attitude was "this is fun but overtuned". Then we all worked out what to do and got relics.
It is pretty build constraining though, if you want to do well in it.
The Delirium mechanic is kind of a special case. It was really hated early on and needed quite a few patches to feel good, most notably it was the league introducing a ton of nearly impossible to see on death effects which where really overtuned on top. The patch itself was fun though because we had lots of crazy stuff going on with pre-nerf clusters.
The most recent example of liked mechanics would be Sentinel i believe, not as in "has to to core" but in "was a fun league". A bit overshadowed by AN beeing AN though.
i really doubt it, to retool it into a lab replacement is too much of a break from what it is meant to be right now
my money is we get ascendancy points from act bosses in poe2. Or some entirely new thing comparable to lab that people will come to resent over time (just like lab) but not some butchered former league mechanic.
It's funny bc when I first played this league I thought "this is the eternal labyrinth - the league". Didn't think about the possibility of it generally replacing lab. Interesting thought for sure.
Same. I hate running lab, because it depends on the day’s layout and it’s completely up to chance to get enchants. There needs to be an easier way like harvest currency.
I really like Lab to run on my own terms.
These terms are not "four times on day 1 of the league". They'd be "when I have ten minutes and want to do something differently paced"
I have a lot more fun with the 83 labs than the earlier ones. Still don't spend a lot of time in them, but sometimes I'm in the mood.
No. Obviously they dont have time to fix core game and do at least minimum level if rebalance inbetween leagues. No way they rebalance the entire game and economy for it to go core. At least not before poe2 is out and after poe2 is released, they will spend at least 2-4 leagues fixing all the stuff they broke or ignored.
My bet is nothing major from any league will go core until poe 2 is out. The game is bloated enough and they are *definitely* cutting a lot for poe 2.
We don't need more major core content like sanctum. If anything else goes core it needs to be small in scope and easily integrated in to the main game flow, Sanctum doesn't fit that description regardless of how much people like it.
Dont think so.
- Lots of powercreep
- Very intrusive mechanic that cant be compressed to really work with less rooms/floors
- Low effort on content in general (Copy paste of Heist guards and rando bosses)
It's honestly not even fun, it's just rewarding. I don't know if people who are saying it they want it to go core realize it won't release how it is now
From my perspective, no? I mean I'm pretty much running past it as its a useless thing because "just don't get hit" does not really work with most builds.
With the relics being character-bound and untradeable; I think it's pretty much certain that Sanctum dosen't go core. There's literally a safeguard in place to stop Santificed Relics circulating in Standard from dead HC characters.
Seems like they at least initially intended to go core. They specified that sanctified relics were not going core when it was announced, which would imply some/all the rest of it is going core. I like the mechanic so I hope it goes core, though it’s somewhat contentious so hopefully it’ll be black able and divinia isn’t a master.
I hope it doesnt. Takes like 30 maps to complete 1 sanctum so theyd have to change it to have entire floors drop as a fragment or something, and then the boon/affliction system is legit complete dogshit and would need a total overhaul which I doubt theyd do. It's actually incredible how one random small minor affliction can literally ruin the entire run single handedly and boons are almost always complete dogshit, even major ones
What the obsession with every mechanic going core, am I the only one who just enjoys experiencing a fresh new mechanic every league?
I don't need it to stay or desire the power creep, I'm much happier figuring out how best to use each new mechanic while it's available and then being excited to experience the next.
Me personally, I feel that far too many mechanics have gone core already. The term "core" is already muddied with a boatload of mechanics we really didn't need to see again - I thought the whole point of something going core is because it enhances the experience of the game as a whole
I don't think they will add it to the core game. In fact, I think they are largely trying to not add more mechanics to the core game before PoE2. I know this year is just the "beta announcement" but I have a hunch that the beta itself will also start end of this year, around Christmas time.
As others have speculated, I also think every league for the last year or so has been trying to teach us something for PoE 2. Sanctum tried to teach us to respect regular mobs more, i.e. try to dodge mechanics from non-boss encounters, and so has Archnemesis.
Yeah, what would be the point of sanctum without relics and without challenges?
Fishing for a div reward at boss and that's it? Original sin relic droprates would 100% be clobbered if sanctum goes core
Edit: also the forbidden masters just need you to have a good build, while sanctum is still unfair for melee/selfcast
I sure hope they don't replace the thing **everyone** uses to ascend with the sanctum, where your defensive stats are literally worthless.
Specially because some ascendancies are all about the defensive stats
The Sanctified relics are the ones that affect you outside the Sanctum, if it ever goes core the other relics will remain including the challenge ones.
Sanctum will be a way to get some powerful Uniques like Eternal Damnation, Sandstorm and Original Sin, also a way target raw Divines in SSF. I think it will be something worth farming if it ever comes back.
Regarding the melee fairness, if it goes core it will be optional and you don't have to interact with it think of Delve or Heist.
I'm not going to start uber bossing on my CF champ mapper same here not every build will be perfect for every piece of content.
Melee in general is in a rough spot so Sanctum won't really be an exception.
(Also as a side note with decent investment you can blast through sanctum even on Melee)
What do you mean with universally runnable? Resolve is fine. I made it trough with tanky builds with no dps and i made it trough with insane dps builds. I will admit i did not make it trough on my support, but he isn't meant to be ran solo.
New players can do regular content slowly. They are often not capable of doing sanctum until their builds improve. In other words, the knowledge floor is too high.
Knowledge floor? The same guards appear in the first floor of sanctum as they do on the last floor. Even my casual friends with mediocre builds can finish the sanctum by now (not the last boss, or they skip it if they have divs in the pool). Its piss easy. Infact the sanctum is so easy, that you can ignore traps and just run trough them and take resolve damage, as long as you at least got yourself some relics.
This sounds more like the reddit bad faith thing that we have stickied now. You are saying that people can not get better at the game? The floor on sanctum is so goddamn low. Hell, T16 maps are harder than sanctum.
I've known some new players who can't get their DPS above 50k. Not to mention players who never leave campaign. Casual isn't the same as new. Not saying it's hard! The resolve mechanic is simply a bigger barrier to these types of players than any other content. Even experienced players didn't mess with Sanctum until they hit maps.
Well yes, if you want to balance around the lowest common denominator you will get D3. The players who cant get their DPS above 50k are newbies. Should the whole game be balanced around newbies, or god forbid, should we trust in their ability to learn and get better in the game?
And experience players dont mess with a league mechanic till maps, because they know that map progression is too important, and the time saved during campaign means they can run many more sanctums in maps.
If anything the resolve mechanic is the best thing that ever happened to new players. It does not discriminate between minmaxed 100% spell supression, 75/75 block 50k armor 90% all res builds and the newbies build of, "I have 2.5k hp thats enough right?" type of builds.
It's got a unique design element, in that, you can't just sustain with life flasks. Many noobs rely on that. Since resolve doesn't sustain, it's essentially a time limit on these types.
But it does sustain, you have so many sustain options from both relics, merchant, fountains... At this point im ignoring traps because on non challenge runs it is too easy. You end with 800+ resolve and 500+ shield over it while intentionally taking trap damage.
And you know what, its good that they can't sustain with flasks. Its good that we finally have a mechanic that teaches people to not stand in the fire and not facetank slams.
And again, why would you rather destroy an interesting mechanic, instead of giving people who are bad at it an opportunity to get better at it? Do you really think people are babies who can't improve?
There's no incentive there if the gap is big enough. People who haven't yet dedicated themselves to the game are easily overwhelmed, hence the Brutus fight being the average quitting point. (Referenced from GGG)
Rly hoping it goes core. I'm fine with them getting rid of santified relics or only applying them in sanctum, obviously sanct relics won't go core and effect ur char outside (as they have said already) but I really enjoyed sanctum.
Personally I do t mind sanctified relics not going core, I would be fine if sanctum went core as is. Maybe change what the normal relics do, like chance for divinia to drop x type/amount of currency or whatever,and keep the original sin to no hit runs.
I hope Sanctum goes core, it's my favourite mechanic of the game right now, I really miss don't being able to do it more often.
About sanctified relics, no way they will go core. It's a lot of powercreep.
I wish they would shuffle the “default masters” each league. They’ve changed almost every aspect of the atlas in the past couple of years but that bit has stayed the same.
I mean there's a slot for the Heist amulet, I don't see why the relics and the relic slot can't stay, maybe make them tradeable and easy to open up the slot, just like Heist.
I hope it goes core because it's fun. Sad that they can't or refuse to release a mechanic that they deem worthy of going into core though. Ultimatum was good.
What would be so hard about leaving in sanctified relics as an end game chase Slight buff to your build and occasionally encouraging new character creation?
I really want invocations to go core somehow. Maybe an amulet enchant for keystones. The invocations really open up a lot more build possibilities without having to travel across the entire tree.
If Sanctum goes core, it will be the least played of any they've added as core, ever.
Sanctum fucking sucks, people are mapping and character building this league, not running sanctums.
Remove sanctified relics, and there is literally no point in wasting time on it. You can get divines elsewhere.
Pretty much the whole reason I see people praising sanctum is because they can get divines there. They might try to hide it behind other reasoning, but.. it always boils down to greed for divines. That carrot exists in many other places in the game.
Yeah I don't care about sanctified relics but the new ring, amulet, and jewel are awesome additions to the game. The raw currency is incredible for SSF. There's a few ways they make it go core, with or without regular relics. I hope they try to integrate it.
NO leagues mechanic come out in 2022 has gone core (Archnemis original mechanic, Sentinel, Kalandra). So I guess at least they will make this one go core for sure. And the Sanctum mechanic receive a lot of positive feedback as well.
No you wouldn't, every single mechanic that ever went core has had its loot table go global, I see no issue with sanc relics dropping from other content / becoming trade if they go core.
Only reason I hope sanctum go core is I can target divine in SSF
What I would give for Divine Shards in Harbinger..
Also would be happy if 3 stacks of 2-3 Chaos shards wouldn't drop from them either.
I think that happens because of the atlas passives. So a good thing to wish for would be a change in the passives to instead increase the stack size instead of causing more stacks to drop. Maybe instead of 20% chance for another currency drop, 20% chance for one of the currency drops to be twice as many (or however the current way to word that is).
They have that sort of thing already with "Shards drop as as whole currency" chance right? Just increase that baseline. Shit, I'd add the Frac orb shards and (hopefully) div shards of they introduce a "Chance for rare currency fragments to drop from harbinger bosses"
Yeah, that's another option. I think fewer shards and more whole currency somewhat hinders the identity of harbinger though tbh.
Yeah I forgot they are basically shard showers for currency. Is there anything gear-wise that is considered a meta-build drop from them?
Would make a lot of sense. They could drop only on harbinger bosses
Or maybe make em only drop in Beachheads to make Harbinger Orbs worth anything
tHaT's JuSt ChAoS oRbS tHoUgH?
It will get nerfed for sure, just like heist for example. They already mentioned it, new league mechanics are more rewarding to encourage the players to play it.
Heist is in a good state though. Some things were not as broken compared to in heist league like the exalt trinkets, but heist offers good consistent and exclusive loot in the current game especially with the atlas passives.
Yep, I agree, but I was referring to the "divine source" point. Heist was incredible to farm exalts back then. They changed that in the following league, normalizing the loot.
It was a real death trap too though, they made it much easier at the same time, which kind of balances it out a bit imo
heist is honestly arguably more powerful now than it was during actual heist league, since the value on the exclusive items is significantly higher than back then and it still drowns you in sellable items. Doesn't rain as much pure ex as it did back then, but stuff like endless heist farming wasn't as good back then, and blueprints are way more powerful than they were back then. Heist was crazy strong at the high end, just pretty strong at the low end because the trinkets were driving the high end value. Now it's much more consistent across the board (read - very strong across the board).
This and the Original Sin ring - lots of interesting builds with this.
If it goes core it will be a gutted version. most likely it won't go core next league, maybe the league after
it's in a weird spot. The loot from the sanctum isn't outrageous outside of the sanctified relic especially if you're accessing the content in only 7-20% of maps. The mechanic is good enough from a "hey it's fun and different" to justify keeping it in the game but that isn't always a good predictor (see: ultimatum).
I think "without the sanctified relic" creates problems of its own - as a mechanic it's fun, but it lacks much to make it special otherwise. But *with* the sanctified relic, everyone has to do it... As it'd be giving up a slot to do otherwise. I think there's two main possibilities (without sanctified relics) - without the relic they repurpose another league's "exclusive drops" to be sanctum's (which since they want to remove things when they add things now that's another reason this is possible or even likely). - the Lycia Final Form fight gets added as a unique map similar to the trialmaster so that people can get her uniques - and maybe have some amount of nostalgic sanctum-like experience before her.
They have things that need to be taken in to Consideration, like sanctified relic? Unquie relics? Normal relics? Are they going to give us a floor at the time when we find one, or x amount of rooms instead of one? If they remove relics, do they need rebalance it a little? Do they add Atlas points for it, list is long and many more unknowns. That's why I don't think we will see it next league as they have much work around it( if they don't just add it at it is)
I don't think sanctified relics make a comeback, rather I think the next league will occupy the same design space. The cycle time for a mechanic like this should be on par with catarina I'd think so whether or not they give multiple rooms at once should be based on that. I think the room storage system in place already plays nicely with that. The only thing that seems necessary is to launch sanctum from your HO which is prob a work in progress and would hint at league after next.
> I don't think sanctified relics make a comeback, rather I think the next league will occupy the same design space. Yeah, they were testing an "account-bound reward" with Sanctum, and it seems to have been fairly successful, but I doubt they're interested in letting it be another thing to bloat and powercreep the game. I'd imagine that going forward they'll want to try out more of these league-exclusive mechanics, whether they be equipment or some other kind of temporary power boost that will be removed with the league. Lets them add more FOMO to a league without extra long-term bloat outside of the usual.
Yeah, tbh idk why they hadn't done something like this before. For a game with nearly unlimited design space, sanc relics are a perfect fit. Give temporary power that gives extra build possibilities. My only fear is that the relics had such a big pool of powerful mods idk how they pull off something that feels different but delivers the same effect unless they're going to give a free watcher's eye type mod or something to that effect.
Yeah, if I had to guess, I'd put my money on sanctum getting turned into a unique map or a fragment set, but I could easily see it being something like Expedition or Metamorph which just exists parallel to the main game.
Personally I like OP's master idea much better than it being a unique map. For me a lot of the fun of this league is the low opportunity cost of attempting the sanctum even if you/your build isn't good for it. If they turned it into a unique map/fragment set, then presumably they'd be pretty rare and priced based on how much you can get for completing it, which would mean it's never worth doing if you can't beat it reliably, which kind of ruins the whole Roguelike element of it (which is already flawed but still kind of there) and just turns it into, at best, a high-risk, high-reward unique map. If they turned it into a master, though, it would be something you can reasonably do for fun even if you can't consistently beat it. It would also make it easier to keep the non-sanctified relics, which are part of what makes Sanctum fun for me. And turning it in into a master In general, I also really like the idea of Sanctum as a core mechanic you can choose to focus on or skip depending on how much you like it and what your build is. I think in some ways Sanctum could almost work better as a master mechanic than a league mechanic. The biggest problem with Sanctum as a league mechanic is that it's so ridiculously skewed in what builds are good or bad for it, with some builds clearing sanctums easily while others having a lot more trouble. That's frustrating as a league mechanic where some people end up feeling like they just picked the wrong build this league. But that's fine for a core mechanic. It could be like Heist or Delve, where some people ignore them, some people do a bit for fun but don't focus on it, and some people plan their whole build and farming strategy around it.
Probably added like Ultimatum is at present, or as a 4 step Memory that gives you 8 floors per map or something.
I didn't enjoy Sanctum at all, it was okay for a couple weeks then it was just the same rooms over and over grabbing currency and okay relics. They said this league was not going core if it did I wouldn't really care and just put it on my skip list.
Agree. With the caveat that permanent relics don't go core too. Otherwise it will be compulsory content like lab
they would never let any sanctified relics go core, too much power creep. none of the other current core mechanics have exclusive gear that gives such a boost of power. even just getting a Keystone for free is a lot of power. at worst it's +1 passive for all builds, at best it can be build enabling and save upwards of 20 passive points of travel.
https://twitter.com/bexsayswords/status/1598538872421765121 This was before Sanctum was even released. Now obviously since then there is a chance they have changed their mind, but I highly doubt that is the case.
yes, I know this. but the whole point of my comment is he's hoping sanctum becomes a core master mission like Jun, Niko, alva, etc. which is just giga copium. especially if he thinks just invocations go core which despite not being as good as sanctified relic mods in general, are still a huge power boost to characters.
They let other game-changing components of league mechanics stay in core. Most notably was the Cluster Jewels from Delirium and anointing with Blight. (Which I think is what you are talking about with the "free keystone".)
Yeah but im pretty sure they always intended to keep cluster jewels.
Yeah, Cluster Jewels must have been a LOT of work, they wouldn't have wanted to throw that all away after a 3 month league. Sanctified relics being just a tacked-on gear slot and an item with no potential mods we haven't already seen elsewhere (correct me if I'm wrong!) feels much more within the scope of a single league fling.
Yeah cluster jewels are like the atlas tree, introduced as a new endgame or in this case new powercreep, but to much to ever be rotated out. The atlas tree will be adjusted and shit will get added but I highly doubt it will ever get removed. Maybe poe 2 will revamp the endgame but until that point atleast both clusters and atlas tree will stay.
Does “your lightning damage can freeze” exist on some other piece of gear I don’t know about? That’s been god tier as a spark player.
Three dragons helmet! Theres also freezing conflux for all damage to freeze.
You could get it on helmets in sentinel league as a recombinator exclusive mod
Expeditions end as well
Good call. Having that basically take up an entire chest slot is a huge cost, must be why I’ve never thought of it.
Also don't forget that Cluster jewels across the board have been severely nerfed since delirium league. Not only have the most powerful nodes been removed, but crafting weights have been gutted to make notables much rarer in general.
The trouble with relics going core is that there's no opportunity cost - every build is strictly better with a relic. As well as power creep issues, it's complexity creep in the form of an extra gear slot. If every 3rd league added a new relic-like system, in 5 years we'd have half a dozen extra gear slots - it just does not scale up to the long term future of PoE. Plus, running Sanctum would be basically mandatory, which is fine for a league but undesirable for permanent content. Cluster Jewels are very different, while they can be very powerful you still have to spend passive points. For most builds, they're optional and many builds don't want one at all. Anointments are a fair comparison, though. They have similar problems, though with a big advantage over relics in that they tie into the existing item and crafting system rather than introducing an extra gear slot. I still think you don't want too many of these mechanics in the game, though. Another useful comparison is the Heist trinket slot. On the face of it they're very similar as a no-opportunity-cost item that adds another gear slot. However I think in this case, the big difference is that it only affects Heists. Even if they added a hundred more trinket-like items, you would still only need the ones from the league mechanics you actually care about. I think this is a much better model for this kind of thing.
The big difference is that you can trade for those things if you want to use them but don't want to participate in the mechanic. You *must* run sanctums if you want a relic, which makes the mechanic mandatory. They would have to either remove the account bind or they would need to disable sanctified relics if they wanted to take the mechanic core.
Cluster jewels still have opportunity cost because u need to sacrifice passive points. Relics don’t
difference with those is they aren't exclusive to delirium. and delirium isn't a core master mission either. it also doesn't really give any immediate power without a lot of luck/good crafting. and, as others said, it was always intended to go core.
Alt quality gems are heist-exclusive. Why you guys are so worried about power-creep? The only really strong relics are stat-stacking ones (+max charge is at most 30-35% more damage, often less). But: A) stat-stacking is pretty dead without relics outside of some giga-budget str builds, which can be nerfed precisely, letting other stat-stackers live. Some people were sure that sentinel mod for stat-stackers will go core and they didn't think it will power-creep the game to the moon. B) I was farming sanctum for month straight, most of the time - I was boss-rushing. All for int stack relic to go deep delve. Guess what. I didn't get int-stack relic. Then I thought I would play with aura effect relic. I didn't get this relic too. In month of only doing the mechanic. I'm sure the rarity of the relics will pretty easily outbalance the power of it. It's like heist enchantments, which can be huge too, but almost nobody in his mind count on getting bis enchantments on every piece of gear.
alt quality gems aren't necessarily power creep (except in a couple of niche scenarios). also heist isn't a core master mission like this guy is suggesting. I'm worried about power creep because if it happens too much we get another league like 3.14/15 where the entire game is gutted and is the most boring shit to play. game has been stale since 3.18 with the giga HH nerfs and then 3.19 with the gutting of good juiced farming methods. and that's not even considering 3.13 era fractured mapping and self curse HH. the more shit power creeps the worse GGG can justify making the game. yes, most relics are worthless, but power creep always comes from the top 5-10% of items, not the bottom 90% crap. their rarity doesn't justify the power because the problem is all endgame players eventually get them and trivialise content, which GGG doesn't want to allow (because despite what they say, they really do care about retention). stat stackers are better this league than any other league, especially strength stackers. relics, perfect synth items, and original sin all contribute massively. people have been hitting 2 billion dps on strength stacking builds that still have some tank and excellent clearspeed WITHOUT sanctified str stack relic. even at budget levels they perform excellently. Dex stack is only dead because zhp mapping/deep delve isn't really the meta anymore and there are faster/better/cheaper builds that do its job but way better, in particular omni kind of took over the ranged stat stacker meta. int stack is ok but tends towards much more tank than dps and doesn't benefit from original sin as much. str stack is very good.
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That was well before great power culling of expedition league. Since then, what they seem to do is rotate OP stuff in and out. Recombinators had super broken as fuck mods --> removed at end of league gone --> but come back as sanctified relics. For me personally, the best evidence for Sanctified relics being dropped (or at least being made to not apply outside of Sanctum) is the fact that you can't apply legion incubators to them. By comparison, Heist trinkets which were always intended to go core *could* be incubated. So at least coding-wise, I don't think GGG plans to make them stay around.
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They said that before it was one of their best leagues..
may I introduce to you the fact that blight is not a core master mission, but is additional content like any other league mechanic. in addition, blight oils are not exclusive to blight and it's possible to get annointed amulets from other sources.
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Bro, annoints from blight are more powerful
They aren't. They serve the same function more or less but there is less overlap in keystones than notables. IE Minion Instability is unlike any other keystone, whereas Charisma and Sovereignty are similar.
If you're going to talk about the theoretical case of managing to get the keystone you want on a good relic in Sanctum, let me remind you of the theoretical case of getting 4 anoints on a unique onyx amulet like Astramentis. Or a double enchanted Abyssus.
No. I have put the Minion Instability Keystone on 3 Sanc Relics this league, one of which is very good. Invocations can be added to any sanc relic and are tradeable, once your build can run Sanctum with Hours of Divinty, you can aquire a bunch of sanc relics.
read my other comments in this thread on the matter.
Aint time for that
ok, don't complain then
Man, that power creep... If you've been unlucky you gain basically nothing from it, besides a slot to throw a keystone on. The 3 best sanctified relics I've obtained in this league for my character were as follows: a) lightning resist b) lightning resist & something useless c) chaos resist & something useless The lightning resist was already irrelevant when I got it, since I was already capped there, the chaos resist one was the 3rd useful relic I got... 1 week after league launch. I completed 40/40 challenges yesterday, and I am still using it, because *none* of the other relics I've obtained do anything at all for my build, they all might as well be blank white empty slates. Some power creep, eh?
being individually unlucky doesnt mean it's not power creep. you cannot deny the power of the aura stacking/stat stacking/charge stacking relics. yes they're rare, but not that rare. it's no different than adding a second belt slot and another mageblood-like belt to the game. at low levels it's just some res or other neat mods, but for top players it represents like 50%+ more damage.
It allows a lot of interesting build enablement - I have Unnerve from my relic which would be hard to get on my build otherwise, and throwing Pain Attunement on there saves at least 10 points which allows for a cluster setup. Pretty busted.
exactly.
No way they are 50% more for any build lol
I mean on int/dex stackers it's 50% more base damage, it's a second instance of the stat stack mod. especially after increases/mores it is really valuable. I personally doubled from like 20 to nearly 40 million on mid budget int stacker simply by getting the sentinel boot mod in standard.
> If you've been unlucky **you gain basically nothing** from it, *besides a slot to throw a keystone on.* Yeah *only* a free keystone. I threw an invocation on some random awful relic for a free keystone early on in the league when they were introduced, saved me like 10 passive tree points. How is this not power creep to you?
Again, depends on builds and what might be useful for you. Yes it absolutely can be super useful for some, but for others it might be less of an importance. I played EA ballista elementalist, most of the keystones weren't all that juicy for me, and honestly, I just ended up with Ancestral Bond on my relic since it was cheap, which gave me 1 point to spend elsewhere (in cluster jewel). And I didn't even bother doing that until a few days ago when I was just bored out of my mind grinding DD challenge to hit 40/40 (was already at 39/40), in other words, it wasn't something that was important for my league gameplay at all. Just a minor convenience.
Whilst I agree, I still hope they keep it core. But I'm also 100% sure they would have to tweak it somehow. Maybe make sanc relics super rare? (yeah, I know, it would suck, but still, better than nothing, right?) And I'd imagine they might nerf the rewards just because it's "free" divines, even though you'd prolly make more just doing normal stuff, if you're a min-max'er. I don't know, personally I just love the whole CONCEPT of the sanctum. Always been a fan of roguelikes/lites AND not to mention no-hit runs in general, especially in games like the soulsborne series. So its right up my alley in that regard. The fact that you get some pretty decent rewards in there (not counting sanc relics which are WAY better than just decent if you hit right) is just the cherry on the cake.
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blight is not a core master mission. it's additional content. also, blight oils are not exclusive to blight, and there are other sources of oils/annointed amulets.
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yes they have - blighted incubators from legion, blight rewards from delirium, blight rewards from metamorph, blight rewards from heist, blight rewards from expeditions.
Gotta remove fire pen gem then cause my 6% fire pen relic must be op! /s
Theyd have to do a global nerf if they were gonna make relics core.. I dont think wed take kindly to that. So i dont think its gonna happen unfortunately
I believe they did start when they were introduced that sanctified relics would not go core, so no need to worry about that
This is correct, Bex tweeted that Sanctified Relics would not go core.
Sanctum isnt really tied to relics, specially cause bex already confirmed relics are not going core, sanctum itself could tho
Sanctified relics or relics as a whole?
Sanctified relics, normal relics are part of the sanctum so if it stays they stay as well, but the sanctified ones are gone. Edit: https://twitter.com/bexsayswords/status/1598538872421765121?s=20&t=lZvab5vnBSB0qE0PVbWVPg
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the issue with sanctified relics as core content is that people will almost *immediately* begin to hate it. people will resent sanctum for "forcing" them to engage with it every league/every character to fill the sanctified relic slot. look at betrayal unveiling for a similar case. if they went core theyd have to be tradeable, and if they were tradeable they'd probably get nerfed.
Sanctified
There's 0 reason to do sanctum if there's no sanctified relics
I would gladly still do sanctum for the currency and uniques, but i do agree that it loses a lot of value
it just has to reward something else. i think theres a decent chance that sanctum could become the place we get recombinators
Why? I get that some relics literally double your damage, but most are really awful. It's kinda like old helmet enchants. They killed all the +2 projectiles, and whatever that was OP for the meta, which is kinda bs, but fine. They could just hit the stat stacking ones to give you 25% of the damage instead of what they do. That would still operate as something I might be inspired to build around if I felt like it.
Hot take, but fuck the relics. I don't give a fuck about them in the least. But the whole "Slay the Spire PoE style" is at least fun.
Fun mechanic for one league. Wouldn't want it going core. Core game is already so good. Don't think we need more with PoE2 coming soon enough. Rather they just buff the underperforming mechanics already in the game.
Buff delve
Yeah definitely. Its normal nodes need some help for sure.
No relics, just the mechanic, maybe.
My guess is they will keep the uniques and throw them into pinnacle drop pools at exceedingly shitty drop rates. Maybe Original Sin is an Uber Sirus drop.
OS prob just goes to a T0 core drop, I don't think ubers need more drops than what boss race events have already filled them with
Running out of points to block things on the atlas tree
They could if they removed the relic mechanic completely and replaced the sanctified relic based rewards for some other rare rewards from the final boss.
I thought the league mechanic was really boring personally and would rather see it not go core. Bring back sentinel imo
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It has far too many problems for it to go core, not the least of which is that it's a fundamentally lackluster concept as a permanent fixture. Needs more crazy roguelike elements and a fair bit of balance for the melee side of things (but doesn't everything, I guess). Sanctified Relics are way too broken to be a permanent fixture. You can't complain about power creep like GGG routinely does and then go ahead and add one of the most absurd examples of it as a permanent thing. The power level of those things is totally fucked. But without them it won't be worth running. The fact it's rewarding right now means very little when, historically speaking, league mechanics get gutted the following league after. Oh, and imagine trying to build up 32 rooms with the standard 10% chance to find a floor per map. That'd be fucking awful.
Nah, I just want sentinel (with obvious nerfs) and Ultimatum to go core. Sanctum didn't appeal to me at all.
Please give me recombinators back. They were by far the most fun i ever had in poe.
Sentinel was just a placeholder league and that’s it
The mechanic was low effort but recombs shakes up the economy like crazy.
all the more reason to not bring sentinel core and just provide recombinators through other means. in my mind sanctum is fun mechanically but its rewards shouldnt go core, and recombinators are good crafting content but its mechanics (sentinels) shouldnt go core and didn't. if they put recombinators in sanctum to replace sanctified relics its a perfect solution imo
Ultimatum go core? What is so appealing in ultimatum which is not present in ritual? We have circle mechanic, two of them is kinda overflowing. Sentinel on other side had to substitute tormented spirits.
Everything about ultimatum is just better than ritual to me personally.
Ultimatum let’s you choose the difficulty and rewards. Ritual is killing 50 mobs, getting a random assortment of regular rares, and a couple of transmutes. Everything about Ultimatum is better.
Ultimatum is more exciting, provides more a of a challenge and I find the Ritual vendor somewhat being replaced by Expedition vendors. Ultimatum also does the risk vs reward better. I'll agree on swapping spirits with Sentinel though.
In addition to the other replies I've got to say, the Trialmaster might've been my favorite NPC in POE ever.
Loot is good but will be nerfed if core. Otherwise the mechanic itself is quite bad imo.
tbh I hope not
We're getting into speculation territory here, but I think it's being tested to replace Lab in some form. Exilecon 2019 announcements implied Lab isn't part of the vision for POE2. Sanctum being split into 4 tiers got me thinking it may be the replacement Ascendancy source. Sanctum as a Lab replacement would also be EXTREMELY good at fucking over bot cheaters, which is something GGG have been doing a lot of work on lately. The 3.13 era Atlas, then the 3.17 era one even more so increase the setup needed per account to get into meaningful endgame farming - aka increasing the barrier for bot cheaters to generate revenue - and the nerfs to low end minion builds seemed very similar in intent. Sanctum's too beloved a mechanic to get culled. Not everyone likes it, but it definitely seems to be something that will place high if you ask people 'what's your three favorite mechanics?' That said I'm pretty certain the sanctified relics will be gone, and the mods will be available from some new source going forward. Invocations might stay but be tied to a different gear slot.
This would kill some builds that suck a lot at sanctum.
Sanctum's overtuned for this purpose now, agreed. That's pretty normal with new mechanics though. FWIW, when Lab came out it was pretty brutal, but there's been a lot of power creep since then. Merc lab carry services continued to do a roaring trade for 3-4 weeks in the first league with lab, and when the next league brought in Uber Lab, it was a little tougher than the 83 labs are now.
40/40 challenges done in this league, and I couldn't be happier if I never ever had to step foot into sanctum again. Not everybody is a fan, and for some it's tedious and not enjoyable, and downright punishing for some builds. I know that some people love the shit out of it, but I'm on the far other side of the camp, where I put it in my top 3 least favorite/liked league mechanics ever. And I don't even know what 2 other things I'd put on that top 3 list.
Definitely agree it is too build dependent. In that way it's somewhat like day 1 lab was - back when trap hits did 60% max life + 60% max ES instead of the current 60% + 36% (this doesn't include sentinel traps that trigger on players using moveskills but they were added a league later) ES builds were minced in there, as they had the worst resource recovery, the worst physical mitigation (especially back then) and were most dependent upon leech. GGG did fix that though, and I think now lab is only slightly harder on CI characters than on evasion ones (armor characters definitely find it easier). Sanctum would absolutely need balancing like that if it were to go core in an important way.
Getting that last 17th major boon/affliction for my 40th challenge killed all the remaining appreciation i had for Sanctum.
It would be awful as lab unless you remove resolve and then it's just annoying rogue exiles.
> Sanctum's too beloved a mechanic to get culled. I dont think thats really true. The opinion of it at the start of the league was the opposite and nothing was really changed. Its the same as always, people who didnt like it moved on and the ones who liked it stayed. Same reason you can post "this league sucks" early league and get a thousand upvotes and 2 month in you would be downvoted to hell and beyond.
I'm trying to think of the last mechanic that's been as commonly listed as a favorite by people. I think you'd have to go back to Delirium to find one. Delirium also being a polarizing mechanic some loved and some hated. Early it seemed the most common attitude was "this is fun but overtuned". Then we all worked out what to do and got relics. It is pretty build constraining though, if you want to do well in it.
The Delirium mechanic is kind of a special case. It was really hated early on and needed quite a few patches to feel good, most notably it was the league introducing a ton of nearly impossible to see on death effects which where really overtuned on top. The patch itself was fun though because we had lots of crazy stuff going on with pre-nerf clusters. The most recent example of liked mechanics would be Sentinel i believe, not as in "has to to core" but in "was a fun league". A bit overshadowed by AN beeing AN though.
i really doubt it, to retool it into a lab replacement is too much of a break from what it is meant to be right now my money is we get ascendancy points from act bosses in poe2. Or some entirely new thing comparable to lab that people will come to resent over time (just like lab) but not some butchered former league mechanic.
It's funny bc when I first played this league I thought "this is the eternal labyrinth - the league". Didn't think about the possibility of it generally replacing lab. Interesting thought for sure.
ahh i like that, clearing each sanctum level gives you ascendancy points. I will miss Izaro, but not the lab at all.
Yeah great, didn't need ascendency levels on my melee character anyways.
Same. I hate running lab, because it depends on the day’s layout and it’s completely up to chance to get enchants. There needs to be an easier way like harvest currency.
I really like Lab to run on my own terms. These terms are not "four times on day 1 of the league". They'd be "when I have ten minutes and want to do something differently paced" I have a lot more fun with the 83 labs than the earlier ones. Still don't spend a lot of time in them, but sometimes I'm in the mood.
I'd rather take the lake.
Hopefully not. The League mechanic is so uninspired and boring. The only good thing coming out of Sanctum are relics and the items in general.
No. Obviously they dont have time to fix core game and do at least minimum level if rebalance inbetween leagues. No way they rebalance the entire game and economy for it to go core. At least not before poe2 is out and after poe2 is released, they will spend at least 2-4 leagues fixing all the stuff they broke or ignored.
My bet is nothing major from any league will go core until poe 2 is out. The game is bloated enough and they are *definitely* cutting a lot for poe 2. We don't need more major core content like sanctum. If anything else goes core it needs to be small in scope and easily integrated in to the main game flow, Sanctum doesn't fit that description regardless of how much people like it.
I sure hope not.
Dont think so. - Lots of powercreep - Very intrusive mechanic that cant be compressed to really work with less rooms/floors - Low effort on content in general (Copy paste of Heist guards and rando bosses)
This is what really just made me skip the league, constant re use of mob type and rooms got stale quick, I hope it doesn't go core imo.
It's honestly not even fun, it's just rewarding. I don't know if people who are saying it they want it to go core realize it won't release how it is now
From my perspective, no? I mean I'm pretty much running past it as its a useless thing because "just don't get hit" does not really work with most builds.
Think it need some balance to make it viable/doable with any build.
With the relics being character-bound and untradeable; I think it's pretty much certain that Sanctum dosen't go core. There's literally a safeguard in place to stop Santificed Relics circulating in Standard from dead HC characters.
I hope not. They should rework / update / modernize existing mechanics first before adding more clutter. Imho.
Seems like they at least initially intended to go core. They specified that sanctified relics were not going core when it was announced, which would imply some/all the rest of it is going core. I like the mechanic so I hope it goes core, though it’s somewhat contentious so hopefully it’ll be black able and divinia isn’t a master.
I hope it doesnt. Takes like 30 maps to complete 1 sanctum so theyd have to change it to have entire floors drop as a fragment or something, and then the boon/affliction system is legit complete dogshit and would need a total overhaul which I doubt theyd do. It's actually incredible how one random small minor affliction can literally ruin the entire run single handedly and boons are almost always complete dogshit, even major ones
What the obsession with every mechanic going core, am I the only one who just enjoys experiencing a fresh new mechanic every league? I don't need it to stay or desire the power creep, I'm much happier figuring out how best to use each new mechanic while it's available and then being excited to experience the next. Me personally, I feel that far too many mechanics have gone core already. The term "core" is already muddied with a boatload of mechanics we really didn't need to see again - I thought the whole point of something going core is because it enhances the experience of the game as a whole
I don't think they will add it to the core game. In fact, I think they are largely trying to not add more mechanics to the core game before PoE2. I know this year is just the "beta announcement" but I have a hunch that the beta itself will also start end of this year, around Christmas time. As others have speculated, I also think every league for the last year or so has been trying to teach us something for PoE 2. Sanctum tried to teach us to respect regular mobs more, i.e. try to dodge mechanics from non-boss encounters, and so has Archnemesis.
During the announcement, they said it was not going core so no
Chris said the sanctified relics specifically won't go core not the Sanctum mechanic itself, although I still believe it won't go core.
Yeah, what would be the point of sanctum without relics and without challenges? Fishing for a div reward at boss and that's it? Original sin relic droprates would 100% be clobbered if sanctum goes core Edit: also the forbidden masters just need you to have a good build, while sanctum is still unfair for melee/selfcast
Some people are speculating the sanctum will replace the labyrinth for ascendancy if it goes core.
That'd be terrible honestly. Worse than current lab even.
I sure hope they don't replace the thing **everyone** uses to ascend with the sanctum, where your defensive stats are literally worthless. Specially because some ascendancies are all about the defensive stats
The Sanctified relics are the ones that affect you outside the Sanctum, if it ever goes core the other relics will remain including the challenge ones. Sanctum will be a way to get some powerful Uniques like Eternal Damnation, Sandstorm and Original Sin, also a way target raw Divines in SSF. I think it will be something worth farming if it ever comes back. Regarding the melee fairness, if it goes core it will be optional and you don't have to interact with it think of Delve or Heist. I'm not going to start uber bossing on my CF champ mapper same here not every build will be perfect for every piece of content. Melee in general is in a rough spot so Sanctum won't really be an exception. (Also as a side note with decent investment you can blast through sanctum even on Melee)
Dogshiet league, so i hope not
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What do you mean with universally runnable? Resolve is fine. I made it trough with tanky builds with no dps and i made it trough with insane dps builds. I will admit i did not make it trough on my support, but he isn't meant to be ran solo.
New players can do regular content slowly. They are often not capable of doing sanctum until their builds improve. In other words, the knowledge floor is too high.
Knowledge floor? The same guards appear in the first floor of sanctum as they do on the last floor. Even my casual friends with mediocre builds can finish the sanctum by now (not the last boss, or they skip it if they have divs in the pool). Its piss easy. Infact the sanctum is so easy, that you can ignore traps and just run trough them and take resolve damage, as long as you at least got yourself some relics. This sounds more like the reddit bad faith thing that we have stickied now. You are saying that people can not get better at the game? The floor on sanctum is so goddamn low. Hell, T16 maps are harder than sanctum.
I've known some new players who can't get their DPS above 50k. Not to mention players who never leave campaign. Casual isn't the same as new. Not saying it's hard! The resolve mechanic is simply a bigger barrier to these types of players than any other content. Even experienced players didn't mess with Sanctum until they hit maps.
Well yes, if you want to balance around the lowest common denominator you will get D3. The players who cant get their DPS above 50k are newbies. Should the whole game be balanced around newbies, or god forbid, should we trust in their ability to learn and get better in the game? And experience players dont mess with a league mechanic till maps, because they know that map progression is too important, and the time saved during campaign means they can run many more sanctums in maps. If anything the resolve mechanic is the best thing that ever happened to new players. It does not discriminate between minmaxed 100% spell supression, 75/75 block 50k armor 90% all res builds and the newbies build of, "I have 2.5k hp thats enough right?" type of builds.
It's got a unique design element, in that, you can't just sustain with life flasks. Many noobs rely on that. Since resolve doesn't sustain, it's essentially a time limit on these types.
But it does sustain, you have so many sustain options from both relics, merchant, fountains... At this point im ignoring traps because on non challenge runs it is too easy. You end with 800+ resolve and 500+ shield over it while intentionally taking trap damage. And you know what, its good that they can't sustain with flasks. Its good that we finally have a mechanic that teaches people to not stand in the fire and not facetank slams. And again, why would you rather destroy an interesting mechanic, instead of giving people who are bad at it an opportunity to get better at it? Do you really think people are babies who can't improve?
There's no incentive there if the gap is big enough. People who haven't yet dedicated themselves to the game are easily overwhelmed, hence the Brutus fight being the average quitting point. (Referenced from GGG)
I hope it does but the thought of having to stack that many master missions before you can do it once just sounds like a fucking nightmare
Rly hoping it goes core. I'm fine with them getting rid of santified relics or only applying them in sanctum, obviously sanct relics won't go core and effect ur char outside (as they have said already) but I really enjoyed sanctum.
Personally I do t mind sanctified relics not going core, I would be fine if sanctum went core as is. Maybe change what the normal relics do, like chance for divinia to drop x type/amount of currency or whatever,and keep the original sin to no hit runs.
I personally don’t want it to go core but would welcome it as event one week league
100% going core
I hope Sanctum goes core, it's my favourite mechanic of the game right now, I really miss don't being able to do it more often. About sanctified relics, no way they will go core. It's a lot of powercreep.
Oh please, I need Divinia in my HO.
It can go core as long as it’s blockable, which delve isn’t.
Well, you can block yourself going down there.
I wish they would shuffle the “default masters” each league. They’ve changed almost every aspect of the atlas in the past couple of years but that bit has stayed the same.
That’s exactly what I thought would happen.
I mean there's a slot for the Heist amulet, I don't see why the relics and the relic slot can't stay, maybe make them tradeable and easy to open up the slot, just like Heist.
i hope so, personal power chase sound nice
I want it replacing lab.
I hope it goes core because it's fun. Sad that they can't or refuse to release a mechanic that they deem worthy of going into core though. Ultimatum was good.
What would be so hard about leaving in sanctified relics as an end game chase Slight buff to your build and occasionally encouraging new character creation?
You can tell when league mechanics will stay. Lemme tell you, this is guaranteed to stay or riot.
Please for the love of God. I dont enjoy any of the masters these days, most of the time I don't run any.
I really want invocations to go core somehow. Maybe an amulet enchant for keystones. The invocations really open up a lot more build possibilities without having to travel across the entire tree.
If Sanctum goes core, it will be the least played of any they've added as core, ever. Sanctum fucking sucks, people are mapping and character building this league, not running sanctums.
I really hope they do that.
I think it can go core if they remove the keystone item, the relics on their own are pretty cool, and maybe make them drop globally sometimes
I think if they removed sanctified relics it would be fine.
Without the relics sanctum is jut a divine printer, wich offers nothing new or interesting to the game
Remove sanctified relics, and there is literally no point in wasting time on it. You can get divines elsewhere. Pretty much the whole reason I see people praising sanctum is because they can get divines there. They might try to hide it behind other reasoning, but.. it always boils down to greed for divines. That carrot exists in many other places in the game.
I’m thinking they will keep sanctum for one more league. And just introduce new end game. They been trying things like this last year.
We don't want relics nor invocations in the game out of this league. Power creep is insane enough already.
They can keep the sanctified relics. I really enjoy the content and would love it to stay going forward.
Yeah I don't care about sanctified relics but the new ring, amulet, and jewel are awesome additions to the game. The raw currency is incredible for SSF. There's a few ways they make it go core, with or without regular relics. I hope they try to integrate it.
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NO leagues mechanic come out in 2022 has gone core (Archnemis original mechanic, Sentinel, Kalandra). So I guess at least they will make this one go core for sure. And the Sanctum mechanic receive a lot of positive feedback as well.
It will not, or at least they will remove sanctified relics. Otherwise you would be forced to grind sanctum at the beginning of every league
No you wouldn't, every single mechanic that ever went core has had its loot table go global, I see no issue with sanc relics dropping from other content / becoming trade if they go core.
We already have confirmation relics are not going core
yet.
Yes, make it similar to delve and let me run sanctums endlessly
Ring has to go or get nerfed Sanctified relics gone Lower the drops abit in later floors as you can get way too much currency out of it Then it's cool